S01E01 - Unscripted...with Darren Lindsay

speaker-0: Nobody's perfect. It's almost like you don't trust a skinny chef. You don't trust a producer who's not on some form of medication. I'm here.
speaker-1: Whenever you watch an unscripted show like Survivor, there's a ton of things that's just going on behind the scene that you will never know about. One of the persons at Afrikaans who's responsible for, amongst other things, gear, location, crew, and budgets is Darren Lindsay. Now Darren has been working with us for 11 years and has a ton of knowledge and a ton of empathy. My name is Leroo Buita. This is Unscripted with Darren Lindsay. Thank you for joining me. Thanks for the great idea. It's perfect. I think it's a good thing for us to kind of share what we have because we do have a lot to share in terms of knowledge and stories and, you know, in the trenches and what can happen and what can't happen and stuff that I think could be useful for people who are out there and who are watching and wanting to know more about. the unscripted side of making television specifically in South Africa. Because I think there is a vast difference between what we do here in this country versus what ⁓ a survivor US would do. So let's start off. Just give me a little bit of a background. What's your background? How did you come to end up here at Afrikaans? Right on.
speaker-0: So my story goes way back when I was a kid, no, not actually. So it goes way back to when my father, she was in radio, when they left Rhodesia, my dad was in the police force, but also working in the radio there. And then they knew that obviously Rhodesia and the independence, it wasn't something that they wanted to have children in, they didn't have any kids then. They moved down to South Africa. And then from there, dad in a way was, An element where he wasn't Afrikaans enough. was too English enough, not Afrikaans enough to be in the Afrikaans radio stations. But he still had the voice ⁓ in knowing it. Whilst he was in Radeja, he actually was a, almost want to say the equivalent of a KTV presenter, continuity presenter. So he's always been in front of the camera. He was always looking for a position within radio because he always liked that one-on-one conversation with people, which I think that's where I get my interaction with people from. And then from then... Long story short, he finally got a job with Spring Gok FM, which then became Radio 5. And he was quite key in aiding that transition, being the DJs, because it was Radio 5 back in the day. And then ran the, what we know now as the Top 40 with Barney Simon, was Barney Simon was just his engineer back then. And then my dad encouraged him to talk and then slowly but surely Barney Simon got on the microphone. So, I mean, look, they all had talents in their own right, but over the time, I think all in all, my father was with Radio 5 for 16 years. He ended his career at Radio 5, I think in 95, 96, when I was still a kid, ⁓ as the station manager. So he had a lot of control over decision-making, what type of content, what is the future of content when it comes to radio and utilizing that as an imagination side, think. Then on my mom's side, she's been... She was trained as a bookkeeper, not an accountant, but knew how to keep a slip, knew how to do what she needed to do to balance books and make sure that there was right and wrong to everything in any decision. And then from there, they both looked at each other and thought, well, hmm, so we're doing voiceovers, we're doing radio. What can we do? We've got three kids at the time. ⁓ My youngest was only, youngest brother was maybe only two, three at the time when he left five of them, or radio five then. And then, ⁓ with the love of music being radio got into the element of ⁓ getting a lot of mixtapes, literally mixtapes, but VHS mixtapes from my grandparents who were in the UK at the time. And this thing called Popstars was just making, ⁓ it's raising its head. And strangely enough, my grandmother said, well, if you love music and you want to do, you're with the radio side of things, maybe go to the visual side of things and this is something you can do. Long story short. ⁓ my dad walked into shop to run with a few production companies cause he doesn't know TV. He knew of it as a presenter, but he knew that there was a lot more to it than just radio and music side of it. So got EMI involved, ⁓ spoke with then that big, ⁓ Wayne Pierce that became his business manager and with Wayne's knowledge who started KTV, ⁓ with the greats back in the day actually creates the company that then developed Coca-Cola pop stars for South Africa and Africa in the middle East. And then. through that process. mean, I still remember as a kid growing up answering the white telephone, putting people through to my dad on a Sunday whenever he had to look after the kids to give my mom a break. were, my older brother, Brett and I, we're there at the radio station answering phones and giving them an eight track, choosing what song to play. So we've always been involved in the medium, if I can put it that way. We've always understood what it does. ⁓ And then with him moving over to the TV side and Coca-Cola Pops, they gave us something which And it being the first, one of the first sort of reality shows at the time, it kind of, there was no playbook. So everyone loved it because we were all used to soapies and dramas at that time. So the unscripted mentality became such a fresh look on life that I think South Africa, even though the world was used to it and getting used to it or advanced by it, but South Africa was getting used to it. And something like a Coca-Cola pop stars, anyone who's in the, I'd say late twenties, early thirties will know about Coca-Cola pop stars. And that's something that I've always thought it's like that it's never spoken about the success of how a show has impacted people's lives. ⁓ So they're fast track to when I left school in 2003 and Popsil started on SMBC3 in 2001. So I had in holiday sign, I would help out, be on set as a runner, kind of work my way up. I always made a mission to not because I'm the boss's son, I had to work twice as hard. in a way, just to make sure that was justified to be there. So I've been exposed to a lot of the camera gear and the logic of thinking in production. And then obviously with my mom's ⁓ background, understanding what the cause and effects of budgets and budgets need to manage stories and needs to tell a story, just like the script writer needs to tell a story to the viewer. yeah, that's where I find myself now.
speaker-1: Coca-Cola Popstars was basically in the same era of the survivors, the pop idols and those type of shows. The boom in 2001, 2002. And basically it started off the unscripted revolution, if I can call it. How did you end up basically the executive producer on all our big projects?
speaker-0: time. So was a weird one. I know when I listened to podcasts, there's always that certain human touch to it to show that you've achieved something that I always like about it. So I still remember, um, when survivor was on the SVC at the time, and I would pretend to go to sleep, but then sneak upstairs and just watch it over my father's shoulder, even though I know he knew I was there. But at the same time I was watching and I still remember that rough version of season one and season two of survivor. thinking, shit, one day I'm actually, I'd love to work on survival in any capacity, any form. So that, and Amazing Race were the two shows that I grew up watching that really spoke to me on these impossible tasks, these impossible things that you one could do. mean, that's TV and storytelling. And then fast forward to a point where I'm now matriculated and knowing that I'm not that academic, but I love. interacting with people. I remember as a kid growing up, I think we all did, we all filled out that psychological evaluation where it said, ⁓ do you want a desk job? Do you want to be here? Do you want to do that? I remember a friend of ours who was a psychologist actually did the test with me and she said, well, I don't know what job you're ever going to do because you want to be 50 % on the desk and 50 % outside. So there is no job really that fits that criteria. And I was just like, well, that's what I want to do. So I'll make, find a way to make that work. And then getting into just putting my foot in the door with other companies. It was great that dad leapfrogged me and Wayne leapfrogged me in a way of working on a big show and had some cred to it. But at the same time, it was brand new. I mean, I was 18, got a car. So that was all I had trading for me really was I finished my trick and I've got a license. So the next role was being a runner. So my older brother at the time was like a camera assistant. for the big shows with Endermol, Fear Factors mainly and all that sort of stuff. And he was trying to find his way in the industry. And I said to him, listen, is there any way that you can just put a foot in the door with like a Endermol? I'd love to, I don't care what show it is. I just want to see how someone else interprets production or interprets TV shows. And obviously at the time Endermol was the best company in the world because they owned all the big formats that we all wanted to do. ⁓ And then strangely enough, my mother phoned and said, Brew, you wouldn't believe it. The runners just walked off set. The guys are willing to chat to you. So I went in and I've, um, I remember meeting with Mark Feldman and him saying to him, listen, the budgets not great. And I said, I'll tell you what, I'll do one better. If you cover my fuel and you teach me, I'll work for free. Which he then said to me, I can't do that. So we found a happy medium, but just to show the eagerness to work. And then long story short, nine years later, leaving and coming back in between and building the confidence within. Endemol, I'd done ⁓ Fear Factors. I'd done, I've always been asked to do Big Brother, but I always try to get out of it because that format just doesn't talk to me. ⁓ And then I think doing All You Need Is Love or Forgive and Forget, one of those sort of series. There was a ⁓ friend, a big guy in the office called Chris Clutzer who I just remember being fearful of him thinking, I need to get to know this guy if I want to get on Survivor. And it was season two of Survivor at the time where they were planning and I was petrified of that. But the one thing I had done is since I realized in Standard 8 when I didn't even know how to turn a PC off, I invested in myself in how to turn a camera on, how to shut down a computer, how to defrag, all those little things. And granted I had a cleverer brother, so I was able to learn from him. ⁓ But I put myself in this situation, understand, and time came when his laptop broke and he had a brand new PC, Mac laptop and he didn't know how to retrieve his password. Long story short, I found out how to do it. I got him back up and ⁓ my God, was I the best thing ever. So then he said to me, listen, I've got a position, you mind? said, but I'll do anything. I'll do absolutely anything. And I ended up going to season two of Survivor South Africa as the one of two people. in as an art assistant to the art director, because we were being facilitated at the time. So we didn't need a big team. But from a South African contingent where there was 14 cameramen, I think there was only the two odd people that had to fit in with the foreigners, which was great. So from then, basically then came winning to that from coordinated in a way on that learned a hell of a lot, lost a lot of whites on that season doing 20 people's jobs, but still great memories about. all those sort of things and build great networks. And I think that's the key thing in our industry is networks. then moving through the ranks from production coordinator or runner, production coordinator, production manager, line producing and knowledge of producing. I remember once I had an interview at one of the other production companies and a lady said to me, we're looking at you for this job as production manager for the show, but in a female based position, in production, Why do you think I should give it to you as a male? And I thought to myself, and that stuck with me going, I'm never, why? Because of my sex or whatever, my ability, my attention to detail, all those sorts of things. Why can't I do it? So it almost became like a thing I wanted to prove it wrong. I didn't ⁓ end up taking that job, but it kind of stuck with me that there's not a lot of males in production. ⁓ there's a lot of guys in males in producing, but not necessarily in line producing, production managing, and all those sorts of things. So that's where I pushed and I focused on that for a long time. and then long story short, got to the point where I'd become facilities manager because of my technical know-how and end of all needed that. So I was kind of like a gun for hire wherever we needed. I've just said yes, because it was one of those where I wasn't married. didn't have kids. So I just took on roles that I wanted, but at the time of being facilities, I was married or just about married 25. and then to get to the end of it was I got to the point where the content being created wasn't talking to me. And that's key for, think, us in the creative industry where it felt like we're just filling black on air. Where we were, I mean, I remember one time towards the end, was doing, I think I did 52 episodes in like six days. Good grief. as a producer. And I just thought, what sort of quality of TV are we creating? And at that point I felt, no, I've outstayed or I've overstayed my time at Indomal. Not that they didn't teach me. stuff. They taught me a lot, but I needed to spread my wings and that's where ⁓ obviously you and I had our interaction in season three of Survivor where you were a content producer and I still in art. We got to know each other ⁓ and then we did Tiss and Elena together when I was a cameraman, believe it or not. ⁓
speaker-1: was telling stories with a bunch of young rugby players. that's, and we really got to know each other in that space. mean, we, interaction on Survivor was at the bar in the evenings and having chats and passing it. we really got to know each other on DisneyLane and travel to the UK together. it, I mean, also, I think that's the one space where we
speaker-0: full day to get.
speaker-1: really connected on storytelling and creating meaningful television. You mentioned something just now. How important is it to say yes to everything? And do you say yes to everything now?
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I think there's a time and a place to say yes to everything. ⁓ when you don't have the knowledge to, all understanding of the word, no, that's when you have to say yes to everything. As soon as you said yes to a lot of things, ⁓ you start understanding what you do and don't want to do. And that's a great learning. ⁓ and then you start understanding the power of no and putting yourself first. ⁓ have I sacrificed a lot? I sure as I've missed. children's first birthday's, first birthdays, I've missed anniversaries like everyone in the industry. But there's elements where... I would do it all over again. It's not like I cry my eyes out because I missed it. At the time it was hard, but looking at where I am now and all the sacrifices has been worth it. And especially finding a tribe that I can call home that is both good for my mental health as well as my personal growth is great for me and it allows me to be who I want to be.
speaker-1: In terms of your day to day with, ⁓ on a production, like let's take survivors ⁓ as an example, you still do 10 people's jobs. Yeah. Just run me through what, what, what is everything that you kind of task yourself with when it comes to like a production like survivor, let's take pre-production just to kind of get us to, ⁓ to kick us off.
speaker-0: Pre-production in Survivor is no survivors the same. It's like every child's got its own way of doing things. So it's, first of all, it's trying to, it's working with someone like yourself, understanding what is your vision for the show, making sure that the budget speaks to that vision. Like I mentioned is the budget needs to tell a story like your script writing or your rollout or where you're to put immunity, it needs to tell a story. So it's, it's working with broadcasters and or funders on how does based on this, this is how I budget things. So. and understanding the pitfalls of where's our risks, where's our ⁓ positives, where's all of that. mean, everyone says, ⁓ we always hide in money and petrol and all that. But the funders and the broadcasters have gotten clever to a point of ⁓ auditing. So at the end of the day, you are spending their money for a project that you both believe in for their output. So there's a certain responsibility. So I get to the mentality of I spend every cent like it's mine. If it can be justified and it's for the visual quality on TV, then we go for it. The key thing about pre-production is one understanding the creative and then applying the creative minds that speak to that creative. Not every creative has the ability to just time on time on time, do the same show. It's also good to mix it up because maybe we need ⁓ a fabricator for this season because of the look and feel that you want to go. I mean, take season six that we did ourselves per season seven. We added the fabricating team in season seven because we had more of an octopus feel to it. And we wanted to have that in the torches and on the set and all those sort of elements, but we didn't want this massive builds like we had in Philippines. So it's those sort of details and textures that as a producer, you have to allow for it to grow and be itself. but manage the edges of it. ⁓ But it's the people. The hardest thing about pre-production is getting the right team that one believes in the format and two doesn't see it as a job but sees it as a passion and finding that happy meeting between am I paying them for their responsibility, not just paying them for a job. yeah.
speaker-1: Participation you always say participation rather than just involvement
speaker-0: Yeah, so are you participating or are you involved? If you're involved, you're actually going to ask a question. If you're participating, you're just going to read the call sheets and do what the bare minimum. Yeah, sort of thing. Whereas if you're involved, you feel it. You know that, ⁓ today we really dropped the ball. And it's those sort of things where like our stance and that's where the lot of sayings within Afrikaans comes from. The best idea in the room is still the best idea. Doesn't matter if it comes from the runner or it comes from a coordinator or something. It's still the best idea because people see stories in different ways and how to tell it is the hard part. So from that point of view, ⁓ it's hard to try to get all of this information and filter it down into what is our wants, what is our nice to haves and what is it, ⁓ we definitely can't. Like the argument like with us is, do we have a helicopter? Don't we have a helicopter on a season? So it's trying to make the wins, but also being mindful of choosing our arguments. Maybe I haven't budgeted for a helicopter, but we've put pressure on art to save so that I can give you a helicopter that changes. Budgets move and evolve and so does creatives. So we have to stay nimble and keep the communication open. It is something that I always want to say it's like a glove in the hand mentality is we have to be with each other all the time and understand what you're thinking. What did go wrong? What didn't go wrong? Not just for this season, but for the next season. So when we do get told that we have to come in on a budget ⁓ and we have to submit it before the finale, end of the finale or the start of the finale before the announcement like we had on season six going into seven was I'm able to make those things because it's with me. I understand how you think, I understand what you want to improve. So it's not just a, I get a brief and I budget that. I know the ebb and flows of both what do we ask of the freelancer? What do we want from the creative? What do we miss with content or how do we get more out of it?
speaker-1: In terms of boots on the ground when we are on a survivor, ⁓ what in your opinion is the most difficult to manage? Is it the people? Is it the budget? Is it the location? I mean, because you basically manage all of those at the technical side of it.
speaker-0: Yeah, by the time the crews arrived, I've already got a blueprint of the budget and now it's just about executing that blueprint. So from a budgetary point of view, it's fairly straightforward. By that time accounts know who's being appointed to what line item. So it's just a, I don't want to say it's a formality of invoicing to match that blueprint, but it is an element that I have to keep an eye on it so that there is, this person worked an extra day, which wasn't planned for, how do I bring it back and so on and so forth. It's at the end of the day, the hardest part there is actually managing personalities. Because on a show like Survivor, and it doesn't matter that it is Survivor, the big thing is, is it a show that involves travel? Not every crew can travel. Not every crew is, a Survivor crew is not necessarily good for a fear factor, for example. So it depends on the format and it depends on, like I said, the idea that you want to get. So the personalities have to match the format. I don't want to micromanage people. I want people to feel it. So it's an element of if they do their best, I just have to manage the edges. The personalities and managing personalities is hard. mean, here I am sitting at 40 talking to you and I've already done seven. survivors of which I've been executive producer for four of them. And the weird thing for me is that at the age between 35 and 40, I was managing people in their fifties and the sixties and the forties. People who are older than me, and you always been brought up to respect your elders, but it gets to the point where if you are paying people, there's a certain control that you have and you look at in a certain way. So not only did I have to evolve into this leadership position where you can't get drunk in front of the crew. You can't take the piss too far. You can push it to the boundary, but you have to bring it back because you still have to have an HR chat if someone oversteps. But it is the hardest part is managing personalities. People are either morning people or the evening people. ⁓ I know what it's like to be an assistant, a camera assistant to wake up at five in the morning, get the gear ready, get on a boat and understand what we're asking of the crew to do on a day to day. And also make sure that they're aware of that. We know what we're asking them to do and make sure that, yes, well, I have a beer with the crew at the end of the day. 100 % of all, because there I understand, oh, if lunch could only arrive slightly warmer, you would get a little more out of me. So there's certain give and takes that we have to work with within on a day to day on Survivor. And that goes on for 50 days. mean, a crew member arriving on Survivor to leaving is about 50 days. Um, ourselves, we're there between four months to three months in that one whole stretch. And then at the same time is trying, it sounds horrible, but switching off to the responsibilities at home, because there's so much responsibility on set. Is the crew safe? Are they fed? Are they happy? Is the quality good? Is the budget okay? ⁓ But at the same time, you're dealing with a different country and their cultures, their laws, their rules, and there's nothing's ever the same. But as horrible as it sounds, it's is having to disconnect. And I choose to disconnect from it. Not because I don't love my family. It's because I don't want to be homesick. I will check in with him. I'm not a monster, but I'm not going to phone in phone home every day. Yeah. I'm not going to, if there's an emergency, my wife knows to phone, but at the same time I'm doing what I need to do to make sure that we have the life we have. And she understands that sacrifice. Is it easy for her? Definitely not. Have I asked a lot of her? 100%. But I'm only able to do what I do because she allows me to do it and she supports me in that role. So it's a lot like, I'd say where I am with my marriage is very similar to where I am as a producer is I have people who support me in the role and I'm able to do and give it back and not just take.
speaker-1: That's beautiful. That's beautiful. You have a very lucky wife ⁓ and a beautiful family. ⁓ In terms of locations and ⁓ managing locations and kind of deciding on where we are going. we've been all over the world kind of looking at new locations. ⁓
speaker-0: Thank you.
speaker-1: What do you look for in a location when you go and wrecky? Not only Survivor, but something like Fear Factor or Temptation Island or...
speaker-0: So, I mean, again, it comes down to what is the creative look and feel of the show that you want to go with? What does the budget allow? Could we do more in another country that we couldn't because of this? Is there a rebate? I mean, let's be honest, we went to Samoa based on us wanting to, I think you had the idea of an island of secrets. We didn't know that Samoa had an island, isolated island. But that was what had come to you. So we kind of went with it. At the time. the Australians and the Americans were in Fiji. So we wanted to see what was it like that side when it came to it. Is it as cut out to be what they say it is? are they only able to be there because it's on their doorstep for both of them and at the same time there's a rebate. So that's how we ended up going to the Pacific side of it. So there's a lot of parameters. were in Asia, Philippines the year before that, and they were great from a point of exchange rates, labor force. I mean, they're talented individuals there. think if I could do Survivors, if it wasn't in our backyard, I'd love to do one there, call that home in a way, but just from their workmanship and the people and the natural beauty that is the Philippines. And they can do attitude, I almost want to say. Then you go, but to answer your question is what do look like? What do I look at? I look at what is your creative or what is a creative?
speaker-1: This is the same.
speaker-0: ⁓ whether it's a fear factor that's more grungy and less pretty, less pretty. Is it something that we're showing off a landscape to justify while they traveled? ⁓ and that plays into, into it. And they're trying to find out what best suits. So strangely enough, when you, when I was thinking about this over the weekend, I was thinking, what is it? The main thing that really locks in the location? Yes, we've got certain looks that we look for. I you look for a aesthetic point of view. look from a practical point of view. The strange thing is as soon as you identify where tribal council is on a survivor, I can make everything fall into place where I can't make things fall into place or where I feel that there's a stumbling block. Once you've identified where tribal is, that's where a location either works or doesn't work. Is it worth the sacrifice to get this tribal's backdrop or idea or theme? Because that's the bones of the show. ⁓ logistics can flow into it is the budget, does the budget support that logistic and so on and so forth. ⁓ I mean, Samoa, we, the other side of the world for the, for the show. And we went there because they had a rebate dealing with the government directly and they were competing with Fiji at the time. So there was, we could play them off each other and it's weird as a producer, all we're doing is making TV, but you're dealing with government. You're dealing with people. I mean, you're dealing with. safety of crew, politics, earthquakes, you name it, we have to deal with it. it's sometimes it's like you said, it's people don't know what we've faced to understand what information we have. And I think that's where I loved this idea.
speaker-1: Speaking of, what is the most... I'm getting a little bit serious now, but what is the most difficult thing that you've ever had to deal with?
speaker-0: Like I say, we're here to make TV. And I think there's always that throwaway comment of, it's not like it's brain surgery, you're just making TV. The reality is, is that I personally feel that a large majority of the industry doesn't actually see what the dark side of it. Yes, we all talk about egos, you'll talk about backstabbing, we'll talk about, ⁓ this person undercut me and all that sort stuff. But no one ever sees the life attached to it. ⁓ As an art assistant, I've had to deal with the passing of a crew member at a young age and having to deal with them being evacuated out of the said country and back to South Africa, who then later was passed away. And at the time we had a psychologist with us and I just couldn't place it, but I knew it made an impact, but I couldn't quite deal with it because we had a job at hand. So in a way it was a great distraction. We carried on with the production. Um, but it was, it wasn't out of disrespect to him. It was more an element of, well, we need to move and needs to happen. And I remember when they had to decide to turn the machines off, it kind of hit me going, well, that was someone who I was working with just last week. And it was a careless thing falling off the back of a Bucky. And I think that honed my skills into production, constantly being mindful of safety and putting people first. And would you book an accommodation where you wouldn't put your head in? Would you fly on a plane? that you wouldn't fly in because it was cheaper. All those sort of things helps to managing a crew. And that's how I always put myself in it. Watch out for the drivers because they're the first ones up, last ones to bed. Are they still a person to be driving responsibility of 20 people or 10 people or four people, anyone in the car. And then the, but to get to the worst thing I've ever had to do was actually have to hand someone their husband's wedding ring. and say, unfortunately he's passed away after the doctor had told him. And that for me standing at a hospital in one of the corridors at like, I don't know, 10.30 at night, accident. And that's the scary thing is we're making TV, but what makes the TV element to it, anything could happen. I mean, getting in a car, driving to work, anything could happen. So it's the same mentality when making TV is, as soon as you employ someone, you take on that sort of responsibility. And now if you've got 120 people, those 120 people problems because you have to send them back to their families. They have to come in healthy and leave healthy. So how do you control that within reason? I mean, you can't control everything, but how do you make sure that it's safe enough for people to do what they do and be passionate about it, but still be safe, carelessness? Like if you're on a set with me on survival, when he said, if someone's sitting on the edge of the back of a bucket, I freak out and people don't understand why, but it's a simplicity of when you're on set and And mainly on a survivor is because it's so long crew take the bubble that we've created for granted. think that mom and dad are there being the executive producers or wherever it may be. I don't have to think, but the reality is it's not those. It's not the challenges that are unsafe or having been thought about. It's the to and from, because we take it for granted. It's the falling off the back of a bucket because someone hit it. and someone fell off, ⁓ he's just a casual. No, that's a human who has a family attached to them. So we always have to go down to what is the worst case? What are the hours we're working? Do I make crew work long hours? 100 % I do. But it's not like I'm standing there with a whip. They've all drunk the Kool-Aid. We all understand this is one day. It's not this for four days or seven weeks or whatever it may be. So we try and make it comfortable so we can ask a lot of our crew. So yes, the worst thing I've ever dealt with was handing a wife. her husband's wedding ring and saying, I'm sorry.
speaker-1: The heaviness of that, outweighs even the lightest moment on any show that you've kind of ever done. There is kind of things in place for when something like that happens. Insurance. Can you just elaborate a little bit on specifically insurance?
speaker-0: stuff here. Insurance. again, I don't feel enough education is on insurance. We all take it for granted. We know we need it. But this what can you do? What can't you do? It goes even goes back to legal from a contract point of view. I don't think a lot of production managers who are freelancers have actually read a contract. I don't think any most technical crew have read their contracts to understand what is the rule with overtime? What is the rule with turnaround time? What is the this? Yes, there's guidelines and stuff like that from ⁓ unions and bodies, but we don't have any unions in South Africa. So when it comes to our industry, so we don't have the control of, we have guidelines. So some producers can really take advantage of it, but some can't. But again, on insurances, don't feel a lot of production or producers take insurance. It's serious, I'd like to say. I say this because I do. the horror stories I've heard of some people and freelancers and all those sort of things. And it's not just one company, it's a because our budgets are managed so tight these days that sometimes you do, I see why it happens, but I wish someone would be there understanding you shouldn't be touching. It's like you don't touch your kids' tuition funding. You don't touch whatever might be that's important. Insurance for me is something that is key. to a point where you're keeping your crew safe, you're keeping the production safe, you've got to backstop for yourself. ⁓ And at any time it's about understanding how insurance works to not abuse it, but to maximize its ability because you are basically paying for cover for the unknown, case in point, someone falling off the back of a bank. ⁓ And that's what's key within like, you take a third world country that we're classed as is that The assumption is that everyone who has medical aid is wrong. So just because you're a DOP and you might have medical aid or you're an ARCT assistant who doesn't have medical aid, doesn't mean that I'm hiring people into... No, I'm hiring, I'm ensuring everyone on the same stepping so that everyone's covered. So we take out, we're pro in taking out personal accidents. So it's a daily rate for the amount of people per day per thing. And that covers them to a certain point. The scary thing is, is trying to manage that value because... An average personal accident would have a 500,000 round death payout to the next of kin. But something as stupid as insurance is I need to know who is your next of kin. Because now when there's money involved, people get all of a sudden come out of their field. So you almost need to plan for divorce before you get married. So you need to make sure that the crews indicated who the next of kin is. What is the relation to that person so that we understand if worst case scenario, do I have all your information to claim for insurance? ⁓ so maybe you do have insurance so we can get you better cover and find a happy meeting between the two. The weird thing is if you make that death or disability fund too much, being in the third world, you do get some new people on set that go, well, if I am getting 10 million rounds, ⁓ if I died on the set, they would sort my family out. So there's a car coming. I'm on set, let me jump. It's horrible. But the reality is people are struggling. And the reality is, is if I can just, you just need someone on a bad day and that decision is taken away from you. But if you make an amount that is, look, there's no value to life, but at the same time, an amount that is, we contributed back to a family based off a passing or a limb or a finger or whatever it may be. And there's a certain percentages attached to it that you are, you've done your part. I'm not there to. replace the person. I'm there to make sure that the family's looked after for that period that he should have been employed with us and looked after and or gone back home ⁓ in the process of being healthy as when he arrived on set.
speaker-1: Just the sheer responsibility that, that lies on running a production is, is incredible. It, I see it every single day that we kind of start working on, on new productions and so forth. What do you feel is one of the big things that young producers, people who are starting their own businesses, starting in companies. ⁓ in terms of production, what do you think would be good advice for, people that you would want, you would have wanted to have.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think to get to it, it's an element where if you understand the responsibilities and don't just chase the money. And I say this from a point of, I've seen it time and time again with employment is you get to a point where people want the salary, but they don't want the responsibility. So that comes back to you. Do you want the business because you want the contract or do you want, what is the, what is the mission there? So if you're a production manager, then now all of sudden owns a company overnight. There's certain things that institutionally you don't know. If you just don't know, you just don't know. PAYE, how's that calculated? What is that? How does that process manage whether it's international money or local money? How do you manage crew? If you haven't had enough time, the higher up the food chain you go in management is, it's not about. Taking the limelight, it's about mastering the delegation of people and management of people. Because the reality is the higher up the food chain you go, it's like, hungry always says, the tall trees get the most wind. I've never been so lonely in my life than when I was given that producer title. Cause you are treated differently. You have the certain responsibility that no one's given you. It's like being an adult. You've got an adult card. But no one made a ceremony about it. No one gave you a heads up that this is what I need to do. ⁓ it's the same thing with, but it's about owning the responsibilities attached to the title, understanding what the title has and then understanding what that responsibility is. even if you went into utilize one of these AI, ⁓ chat GPT, for example, and you said, what does the series producer do? What does a producer do? What does a field producer do? Just understanding what it spits out. Obviously each shows. It has a customized JD or job description to match it. But just understanding the responsibility is what's key to it. yeah, mean, there's so much. There's so much. Allow yourself time and constantly open your mind up to education.
speaker-1: think that's super important. mean, and nowadays we have so much access to tools that the problem is that not a lot of people want to learn more about different things. And you just kind of blindly go into it. But that self-education is possible nowadays. YouTube and AI.
speaker-0: I mean, learning how to edit back in the day was that video copilot. That was something that you, I didn't go to university to be taught. So how do I get taught? I get taught by learning from other people's mistakes. And the only way to do that is being open and honest and allowing you to be vulnerable or trustworthy with me to share your life story. I mean, my mission in life was I realized at a young age, I'm the middle child. So it's okay.
speaker-1: I'm sorry.
speaker-0: is, and I own that position from a point of, I've got an older brother. So see how he operates with things and then pivot when it doesn't work out for him. And I did that for a bit just to find my footing. And then all of sudden it got to the point where that became the norm of, but it wasn't just my older brother. It was the older people. So people who had been in the industry long enough, watching people, not just being on set for the sake of being on set, is seeing how people process. It's almost like that beer old Jeep is how did you get that? You have to look at the set, what the camera sees and what do you see that the camera of seeing the camera seeing. And it's just kind of pinching yourself. It's like someone said, when I got married was an element of take a moment to just maybe stand outside the event. When you go to the bathroom or you go get something, just go outside and see everyone at your wedding. Cause those are the memories that will sit with you. It's the same thing on set. Just take a moment to observe people. Don't be bombarded with paperwork and stuff. Get that stuff done so that you can be a scene production or a scene producer so that they see that you understand their frustrations and limitations. And then, yeah, well, if I just hired one more person or one more assistant, I could get this done faster. Then it helps your budget. it's put yourself in someone else's shoes. See it from their perspective. Don't get me wrong. The hard part is getting them to see it from your perspective. But that's why you have the certain controls and you have the relationship to allow them to have that sort of interaction with each other.
speaker-1: I think you've hit on a very important point and that is being a scene producer when you are on a production. I know that both you and Henry are very seen in turn when you are on a production. And I also try and kind of step in on that, but the fact that you are on set, you know what's going on. You know. you are observant of your environment and of possible problems that could arise from the shoot day. It doesn't matter which format. But that's a definite, a ⁓ very important thing is to be a scene producer once you get to that.
speaker-0: And that's time management, that's people management, that's in my head, that's what I want. I always train myself to be the producer that I wish I had. If that makes sense. Is I know what it's like to have a producer who always stays in the office. Who's all, I've got a contract today, I've got a contract today. No, no, you should have got those contracts done already. You should be here or you should be pushing it to your line producer. You should be pushing that to production manager. And that's whether you identify that they haven't understood delegation. I'm not. I'm not the all be all the end all knowledge of delegation, but you have to understand. Maybe there's nights where I'm behind on work, but I'll work them when we finish call for the day. I'll work on them in my hotel room, but that's the sacrifice a producer has to make. But when it's go time with the crew, you do have to, you have to be the referee. You have to be there to understand the cause and effect. I've had disciplineries with head of carpentry and the head of the store because he sent a 0.5 millimeter wrong drill bit to a build that was 20 meters 20 kilometers by Coroway. I mean You end up laughing about it because the Oaks are so angry about it. And yes, it makes a big difference, but you know about a 0.5 millimeter You mean like what? But the reality is that's a learning experience. Stalls should have been better. Understand where he is Why the frustration is there, why he has to come up with this solution. Cause he's already sacrificed 40 minutes, one 20 minutes each way. And you sent, you didn't pay attention to give it to, it's almost like that wedding planner mentality. I always say it's my production team that work with me is a wedding planner plans a hundred weddings and it becomes a formality for them. But this is my wedding. It's my one wedding. I don't plan to get married multiple times when I have my first wedding. So make it special for me. And that's the sort of approach that it's almost like grounded, stay humble. Don't let the title get to your head, but understand the responsibilities attached to it and appreciate that we might not do another survivor. So absorb what's around you for the time being and embrace and feel it. I mean, I don't know if that's meditating or whatever it might be is manage yourself to allow you to have those experiences. So it's time management, delegation, and just being there.
speaker-1: Your biggest pick P.
speaker-0: when someone says they're level best, I can't because that means you put a level to it. You should always be better. You know what mean? Like, why must I put a C? Like, no, no, no. ⁓ My pet peeve is people that are selfish, people who don't... have empathy. think since being a father myself, I've become a better producer, understanding that people are different. Common sense is not common. It's based on experience. So if you haven't had a lot of experience, what's common sense to you is not common sense to me. So it's not common sense at the same time. But it's about how the key thing is how do I leave this industry in a better position than I found it? And I'm not saying that I'm going to go hold a sign and argue with the government. I'm going to just do things like this. Say things that I know what makes me happy and now I'm going to sleep at night. Maybe that'll get to somebody and they will just try, even if it's 5 % better. Maybe don't deal with the egos and just draw a line in the sand because everyone has a purpose to be on set. It's not about, ⁓ I'm the DOP getting paid the most, or I'm picking on the DOPs, But it is, it's, you might have someone that's difficult with you. There's one, I said one phrase to my one production person was, I pay you to do a job, not to make friends. But the reality is I would love for everyone to get on. But if I'm holding you to account, I'm holding you to account on your job. But that doesn't mean you have to be an asshole. Confidence and arrogance. Two different things. Very fine line. Have confidence, but also look at it from a point of who knows? Ask the guys we work with, I mean, I'm now employing people who employed me. So that whole thing about be nice to people on the way up because on the way down, they have to be nice to you. It literally applies. One moment a runner could become a producer. So it's those sort of things where just be like her.
speaker-1: Yeah, think empathy is a big thing that is sometimes lacking in the television industry, in the film industry as a whole. There's people who don't have empathy, who just want their own way and they can't see somebody else's point of view. you mentioned something earlier this year that we grow faster when we work together. And that's
speaker-0: As opposed to being by ourselves. It's your mind. If, if you are a producer and you haven't worked out that your brain is your worst enemy, not in a, if you're not in a good frame of mind, it becomes the worst enemy. If you're in a great frame of mind, it becomes your biggest cheerleader. So when I knew that I was depressed was I felt like I had this overweight six pound, 600 pound life cheerleader sitting on the sidelines going, yay. go for it there and you can, as opposed to that bombshell fit, you know what mean? Like if I'm looking at a metaphor, for example, that's when I knew I needed help. I think that's a key thing as well as nobody's perfect. ⁓ it's almost like you don't trust a skinny chef. You don't trust a producer who's not on some form of medication. I mean, you've, if you aren't, haven't put yourself out there enough to, to justify that. ⁓ Whether it's just putting yourself in someone else's shoes who's struggling. Whether it's understanding something as silly as black tacks for a crew member who's trying to find so that they can support family. Whether it's someone losing a loved one. ⁓ Whether it's through logistics that you've arranged, which none of them were for the record. Or the freak accident. Or the responsibility of flying 120 people to the other side of the world. Just have that. But the one thing I will say to this is, a crew member, never take my kindness as a weakness. Take it because I choose to give it. I choose to give you, it's a gift. I give it to you. Don't abuse it. Because I've always said to this, never annoy a kind person. Because we can get very horrible very quickly. And we take it, we wear it. And it's like people have to hold me back. And it's not from a, like a vicious point of view. It sits with us.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: I'll never forget it. And that means I'll never employ you again. Cause I don't want that sort of toxicity around my sets. Even if it is just me, cause I have to put myself first to be able to be in a good position to manage other people. So it's a given a take on both sides. It's respect at the end of the day. It's empathy and respect. it's an element of I, maybe your newcomers have to earn their respect and fast, fast verse that they have to earn my respect. But it doesn't mean that we don't meet in the middle.
speaker-1: when I
speaker-0: It's a relationship, so that means it's a two-way street.
speaker-1: I want to get to your best and worst experiences that you've ever had as a producer.
speaker-0: Worst was dealing with liquidating a company that I believed in. Was having to face the music on something that in a way I was responsible for as being the producer and the company owner. At the time we were shooting a pilot as a series. So in a way there was a lot of risk attached to it. And we were in the middle of heaven knows where. Uh, in camps and all that stuff. So the client, in my opinion, didn't have enough experience in that sort of hard craft. They had a lot more studio and a lot more lifestyle sort of stuff. We, we had it, but we didn't have the right purse strings attached to have it. Um, and I learned a lot from it. Don't get me wrong. It's like someone says, there's never trust someone who hasn't failed. It taught me valuable lessons. Along the short of it, client left the country with the tape. We successfully finished the series, but then when the invoices started piling up. And there was always a phrase that I remember where the client was saying, at all costs, get it done. And I understood, I now understand the importance of.
speaker-1: That's almost at level base at all costs. Almost on the same.
speaker-0: at Yeah, and it's an element where... Suppliers hear that and depends on what type of supplier you are. You either see a blank check and you go wild or you see it and go, hold on. Darren and his business pays me, not you. I understand the food chain. me just check in with Darren. Some suppliers did that. suppliers did it. And as a result, it caused the problem where I didn't have the money to support what was being asked of. And I say that they had some responsibility attached to it because I had asked people to be there. But there were some, there were new suppliers that I hadn't worked with. And since I won't work with again, based off the, that two way street, there wasn't two way street. It was like, ⁓ blank check, let's go for this. And then it got to a point where I did have to face the music. That's something I didn't have control of. but I was perceived that I had the control. And unfortunately I had to pull hungry through the process, which I think that was the lowest of low in my life was someone who I looked up to having them by association get pulled through that. I don't mind if it was me. I mean, I had my dark demons that I planned suicide. did openly. People go, Ooh, that's quite a hectic. I didn't, I'm still here. And the reality what kept me here was one, the family bond that I had. I say tribe with the business, the family you choose. My family, who were still young at the time with two boys and a loving wife. And also understanding that this is a lesson. I'm not the first and I'm not the last. And did I do anything wrong? No, I didn't. I still have to take the responsibilities attached to the position that I was in. So I had to take the abuse. I had to take the hard questions. I had to face the music at the end of the day, which one of the suppliers ended up liquidating the business at the time and having to go through that process. But at the time, going through that process and feeling like I was the victim, put me in that dark position of planning. I just can't deal with this. Let me get out of it. My phone doesn't stop ringing, which it doesn't now, but for positive things. But at the same time, I didn't control the narrative. And I think that's what frustrated me. So I wanted an easy art and that's why I planned it, but I did it because I've seen family, friends who have done it and what it left people with. I thought, you know what, does time really heal? Which I can tell anyone watching this time does heal. And if you've done nothing wrong, you've done nothing wrong, but you still have to face the music and see it to the end. Take responsibility. it's not about starting strong. It's finishing as strong as you started. Um, so that was, that was the lowest side of it. Um, I think the happiest thing for me was I remember standing on, I think it was season seven's finale and seeing my name come up as executive producer on Survivor and thinking, like the little kid in me, the little bit that was left was like, fuck, you've done it. The one watching Survivor over my dad's shoulder was like,
speaker-1: So I'm watching survive.
speaker-0: You finally did it. Like that's an achievement. You can't get any higher than that on that format, unless you own the format, which I don't have the money for that. But if only we had, but it gave me that certain. Be mindful of yourself to give yourself the wind, but also be mindful of yourself to know where you stuffed up. you can be better. ⁓ it's like when you're managing crew.
speaker-1: If only we had.
speaker-0: It's the same as being a parent managing a child is when we were growing up, if you made your father angry, you knew it was short-lived or your mom. I was more scared of my mom than my dad. But if, if they were angry, I knew they would pass. But if they were disappointed, I've let them down. And that's, and that's what I've taken to managing crew going, I really thought you could do this. You've dropped the ball here. Do you understand the domino effect that's, and if that sits there.
speaker-1: Yep.
speaker-0: And seeing that with kids, my own kids, they've died a thousand deaths for going out for a duck or not being, not scoring the try or I don't know, not getting the marks that they wanted to get or just being. Lacker. Will they smash a window? 100%. But is there a lesson in that? No, cause they've been kids, but when they're disrespectful to their mom or the way that they talk or not saying that they are, but when they maybe have a knee jerk and they think they're heroes, it's in it's, it's having that conversation then. And it's understanding the difference between participation and involvement, anger and disappointment. And then you can manage anything. And then overall responsibility that your job gives you, that you are being paid for. Because you owe it to everyone to manage your responsibilities.
speaker-1: Okay, so I have one, I want to finish off. Quickfire questions.
speaker-0: Sure, one word answers.
speaker-1: One with no long explanations, just first. You ready? Beach or jungle? Drone or handheld? Sunrise call time or night shoot?
speaker-0: speech. sunrises.
speaker-1: Diner 8 fighting or missing contestants.
speaker-0: missing some distance.
speaker-1: Rainstorm or heatwave?
speaker-0: Equal
speaker-1: more dangerous terrain or people.
speaker-0: people.
speaker-1: True Morale Booster, hot coffee or a day off.
speaker-0: Coffee.
speaker-1: One thing you always overpack.
speaker-0: I don't know. It's fine line. One's preparation age, because you might tell me on your feet. And then the other one is, um, cave creep.
speaker-1: All right. ⁓ One thing production always under budgets.
speaker-0: Crew Reds.
speaker-1: Harder to manage witho personalities.
speaker-0: personality.
speaker-1: Best place to spark drama, water source or sleeping area.
speaker-0: Water source.
speaker-1: Hangar or boredom, which causes fights first? Distance between camps close or far? Night shoots, better TV or production when I'm near.
speaker-0: hunger. close. Production not me.
speaker-1: ⁓ Most stressful words on comms.
speaker-0: Copy.
speaker-1: Medic! Medic. First thought when something breaks.
speaker-0: How expensive was it?
speaker-1: Backup plan or improvise? One item that has saved a shoot more than once. ⁓ After wrap, silence or celebration? Favorite location you've ever worked?
speaker-0: Always improvise. clapboard. Celebration. Philippines.
speaker-1: Place you never want to return to. City, life or remote base camp? Are you watching the episode as a viewer or spotting problems?
speaker-0: Summer. City law. spotting problems. I'll never ever. And I think that's the certain working in this industry, you start, you see TV differently. You think differently. Your brain perceives things differently. I think that's if anyone getting into production or producing, you need to do your time to allow, and I think that goes for creative. I just don't know because I'm not that side of it is you need the experience.
speaker-1: Yeah It does.
speaker-0: to allow your brain to be trained. And I think that's where lot of frustration comes in with people entering our industry. It's like my highlights on doing a survivor or format that I've done before is watching the newcomers go, what do mean you guys? I feel like I've missed the whole- Board meeting? Yeah, what? What? meeting? do you? Guys, I'm so lost and nothing's changed. They haven't missed anything. They just don't know about it. Yeah. So it's that sort of, allow your time. to get frustrated, allow your, cause when you're frustrated, you find you should always be looking for answers as to why to manage that. So allow your brain to be reprogrammed because the average Joe doesn't think like I would be thinking right now based on a show or anything like that. So just allow that time. And that's where also to all the producers out there is if someone doesn't have the experience, if you don't give it to them, they'll never get it. So there's always an educational process, so pay it forward. So is it a show that you can take a risk on? Do you have the A-Team crew or the crew that you've identified that's on it? That allows you to take a risk. The risk is let's bring a new runner in or a new production person or a new art person in. But then you can give that person the experience because that speaks volumes to them for their career, but also opens their eyes up to the bigger picture of maybe they've only done commercials or they've only ever done. studio shows and they want to do a survivor or another show. I know we keep talking about survive, but a fear factor for me, I find fear factor a lot harder than survival. Your location changes every day. The stunts risks attached to it. You've got helicopters involved with stunts. mean, you've got animals that children and animals. mean, those are the no-go's, but we end up doing it. But it's against time and a place in each format, but it is an element of. One, producers need to give people experience so that they can gain experience. Two is allow yourself to be frustrated. Live in that moment. Experience that, feel that and make sure that you learn. Sometimes you learn how not to do it, not just how to do it. And it's constantly wanting to learn. Whenever I do a show, I could have done a survivor, a fear factor. Moving on to my 12th season of a fear factor. You would think I know the format, but I look for something new to learn every time. And that's what keeps it like watching a cliffhanger of a series. ⁓ I need to watch the next one. ⁓ that's what keeps me wanting to come back for more is I'm putting myself first. I'm learning and discovering something new always, whether it's a better way to manage people, whether it's a better way to manage health and safety, whether it's a better way that communication should have been better or a budget could ever be managed. It's those sort of things. You've just got to keep challenging yourself, think. That's the key thing.
speaker-1: Thank you for a very insightful conversation. It's always great to chat to you just in general.
speaker-0: I was full of such great information, but just chatting again to you just allows us to share what we have.
speaker-1: Well, that's basically our episode. Thank you for joining us. ⁓ Please like and subscribe wherever you watch your podcasts and see you next time.