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Welcome to the Veterinary Culture Lab, where science meets real-world application.
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I'm Andy Davison.
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And I'm Josh Weisman.
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Together we'll show you an evidence-based blueprint for renovating culture in your veterinary team.
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One episode at a time.
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For a lot of us, hearing Can I Give You Some Feedback instantly puts us on the defensive.
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Turns out the way feedback is delivered is actually shaping psychological safety, trust, and retention.
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So let's dig into some brand new veterinary research and uncover why feedback and communication quality matter more than we think.
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Hey Andy, good to be back with you recording another episode of the Veterinary Culture Lab podcast.
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Super excited.
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How are things with you?
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Right.
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This is something I always look forward to.
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Like these are always such fun conversations that we have a plan, right?
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But it's like a loose plan.
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And then the way that it always unfolds is super fun.
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So I am thrilled to be here.
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I feel like it's been a minute.
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So yeah.
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It it has been a minute.
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Um, you were traveling internationally recently.
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Um, I was also traveling internationally recently, although slightly less exciting international travel than yours.
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Uh and yeah, it's I it's been it's been a hot minute since we've sat down together.
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Yeah.
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I agree.
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I feel like I miss our chats.
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I know, I know.
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Um, yeah.
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No, go ahead, please.
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Tell me what's what's on your mind.
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What's going on?
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I was just gonna say, you're right.
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We've both been doing some really exciting international travel.
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And even though we don't have time to get into the details of all the amazing things that we did while we were traveling, I would love to hear what's kind of something that you're bringing home from your traveling experiences.
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Um, to triple check on schedules.
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There you go.
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That is a valid thing.
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That is an important thing.
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Especially when traveling internationally, it is a good idea to know exactly when things are happening so that you can plan accordingly.
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I learned that lesson on this last trip.
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I feel like all the dads around the world are like, well, yeah, that's what I've been trying to tell you this whole time.
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I think you're right.
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What about you?
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What is what is one small thing you're taking away from your recent international travel?
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You never know when you're going to be absolutely surprised in the most beautiful ways.
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So I think what I'm hearing here is you you never know when you're going to be sitting by a swimming pool and a baby elephant will be drinking from it.
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Exactly.
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Under a night sky that has the Milky Way brighter and more stunning than you've ever seen it in your life.
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Yes.
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Yep.
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Uh so listeners, if that doesn't give you a hint as to why Andy's international travel was significantly cooler than mine, now you have it.
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Uh Andy, I I wanted to share something with you that I got to experience while you were away in Africa, by the way, for those of you who haven't figured that out yet.
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Um, yeah, I was uh, you know, uh Greta and I constantly kind of joke about moving.
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Um you know, like at this point, you're probably like, yeah, right, Josh, you've been talking about this for four years now.
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Um but we do.
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We, you know, we we we joke about it and we we look at things.
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And so occasionally, like, you know, I'm online looking at like I wonder what it would cost to buy a small place in northern Kauai.
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What it would cost to get a little bit of property up in the mountains.
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You know, one of our uh clients owns a ranch up in the mountains, and so that kind of got us thinking.
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And so I was looking around and um I came across this like horse property uh that was like really quite affordable in the mountains, so like a good chunk of land, and I mean, not great, we don't have horses, but I I thought of you when I saw it.
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I was like, huh, you know, maybe we could do that, and then I don't know, maybe Andy and Mike could come hang out for a while, you know, they could bring Boston or Marshall out here or something like that.
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Yeah.
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Um what I discovered though is that this horse ranch was actually being sold by the former CEO of whatever company it is that makes Doritos.
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Like he was the guy that like was intimately involved in Doritos.
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And I was looking at this thing and I was just thinking, cool ranch.
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There you go.
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Well set up.
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Well set up.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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Yeah, you weren't quite sure.
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You weren't quite sure.
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I it I didn't get it until the ranch part.
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I thought it was gonna go horse related.
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Yeah, but I was like, Doritos, there's something like that.
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Doritos.
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There's this is my lame attempt to take um today's uh dad joke.
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I'm showing the dad joke from my calendar to Andy.
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You obviously can't see that, listeners, but yeah, this this was today's dad joke.
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What did one Dorito farmer say to the other Dorito farmer?
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Cool ranch.
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Yeah, see, see, listeners, this is the creativity and the sass that I need to deal with on a daily basis.
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Not only is this man an amazing dad joke teller, he can take any dad joke and make it believable.
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I know.
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Thank you.
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That's very kind.
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I'll keep that in mind during your next performance evaluation.
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Um, let's let's go ahead and get to the task at hand here, shall we, Andy?
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I I'm really excited for today's episode in particular.
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Uh, I mean, I'm always excited, right?
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Because I like to nerd out in this stuff, but this one is cool because two reasons.
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Number one, this study that we're gonna discuss is hot off the presses.
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Like this is brand new.
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It was just recently released here in 2026.
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And it was a piece of research conducted in veterinary medicine.
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You know, sometimes we take studies and we kind of apply it to vetmed, but this one actually was a veterinary uh piece of research.
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And it's extra special because it covers new ground in an area that kind of lives in a really special place in our hearts here at Flourish.
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And the findings are actually really super practical for veterinary teams and for managers.
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Now, Andy, I I have a question I want to ask you to kind of kick things off here.
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But first, I want to ask you sort of a pre-question, which is when you hear things like, Andy, I'd really love to sit down and give you a little bit of feedback.
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What happens in your mind and in your body?
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Oh God, my hackles go up.
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I'm certain that I screwed up.
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I'm certain that I'm in trouble.
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It's not good.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And that's like typically how we respond to that word, feedback, right?
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Like in the workplace.
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We think of it as like, oh God.
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So here's what I want to ask you to kind of kick things off.
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Before we really dive into the study, Andy, I want you to think of a time that a manager or a boss or someone in some position of power, maybe even back in tech school or undergrad, whatever it might be, somebody gave you constructive feedback that landed well.
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Like they did a good job of it.
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And I want to ask you, what made it land well instead of sting?
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What did they do that made the delivery receivable?
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This is such a good question.
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And it was actually a lot of fun to think about.
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Um, and it actually does come from tech school.
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That's funny that you went back there because that that that's the example that I'm gonna share is an example from tech school.
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And the reason that this particular situation stands out is because it was one of the times where I was given feedback and I didn't get all prickly about it.
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My rebellious side didn't come like flying out because it's in there, it's definitely in there.
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I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Right?
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It's shocker.
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Shocker.
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You've never, never seen any inclination of a rebellious side.
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But go on.
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But this particular situation, it kind of I think there's a little bit of a backstory, right?
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Because the person that gave me this feedback was somebody that I had developed a great relationship with already.
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And it was definitely a professor of mine.
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Okay.
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So it was somebody in authority.
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And as a student, to kind of create a connection with this person was really pretty cool.
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And the more I thought about it, it happened because that professor, that teacher made the effort well ahead of time, right?
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To create a connection and establish a really awesome professional relationship with me and with the other students in my class.
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My tech school class was smallish, which was awesome because we all knew each other.
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We all were intimately involved in our journey through tech school.
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And so I had known this professor for a couple of years.
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She knew me for a couple of years, and there was already that effort made to create that connection.
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So when she said, Hey, there's something I want to talk to you about, I didn't automatically go, Oh God, I'm in trouble, right?
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Because we had talked about stuff before, and it wasn't always bad stuff.
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So there was already that sort of expectation there.
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And when we did sit down to talk about, you know, the thing that I didn't do awesomely, it was definitely about the thing that I didn't do awesomely.
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It was not about me failing as a student, me not understanding the expectation, me making assumptions that weren't true, me, you know what I mean?
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It was about the thing that I didn't execute awesomely or well, really.
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And we talked about what that was.
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And it was a conversation.
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It wasn't, hey, this is what you did wrong, and this is what you need to do differently, and now go forth and be different.
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It was, hey, this happened and this is why it's a problem.
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What are we gonna do?
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Because we both see the value in making that change.
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So it was like a it was like a joint effort, right?
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It wasn't a principal's office sit down and tell me all the things I did wrong and why I'm such a terrible person.
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It was, hey, let's work together to figure out what happened here and what we can do moving forward.
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What impact did that experience have on you?
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Huge, huge.
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Okay, first of all, I was a student, right?
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So I was a wee child and I hadn't had a lot of experiences like this, right?
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I mean, I had had experiences with undergrad professors who you didn't know and were very, you gotta do this if you want to get an A, and parents who absolutely told you what to do, when to do it, and you never had a say, right?
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And so to have this experience, I think that's why it stands out to me so much, is because it was one of the first that really collaborated with me, right?
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And like saw me as an equal in this situation and invited me in to be a part of the solution because I was so used to being told what to do and you know, what you got to do is this, and now go do it.
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And that was different for me.
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And I think that really is one of the reasons why this stood out so much.
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Yeah, that's super cool.
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I'm so grateful that you had that experience.
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And I love that because what you just described is basically the real world version of what this paper is suggesting, is the big idea that feedback quality, especially from people in positions of authority, those in status, feedback quality might actually be one of the ways that we don't just cultivate psychological safety, but that psychological safety makes employee retention sticky.
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And we all know about the turnover problems that many veterinary practices face.
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The thing is that I sometimes worry that a lot of the retention conversations that we're having in veterinary medicine become compensation conversations.
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We we start to really view retention as a compensation problem.
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Now, listen, compensation, it absolutely matters and it makes a difference.
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But when it comes to retention in particular, compensation is not necessarily the best lever.
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At best, compensation might get someone to tolerate a bad workplace for longer.
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We like to refer to this as like the golden handcuffs, right?
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Well, I hate it here, I'm miserable, I'm disengaged, but I can't afford to leave because nowhere else will pay me this much, right?
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Money alone, though, cannot create a workplace environment that people actually really want to be a part of.
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So I really come to think of compensation as hygiene.
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It's table stakes.
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It what's it's what gets you in the door.
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We could call better pay a justice issue, right?
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Like this is it's not really about retention per se, it's about justice, it's about equity, it's about what's fair.
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That's how I think we should frame the compensation problems that we face.
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Uh this study, though, points to communication as a real lever for retention and team thriving.
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Uh essentially, what we're saying here is that when communication excels, when it's really good, especially when it comes to the feedback loop between team members and managers, people might stay because they feel safe, supported, clear on expectations, and they have an opportunity to grow and develop.
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So this episode is not pay doesn't matter.
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That's not what we're saying, okay?
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It's you can't pay your way to a thriving culture.
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So let's dive into the study itself.
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The study has a very long name, as academic papers tend to do sometimes, a cross-sectional study exploring associations between psychological safety, employee turnover intention, and feedback skills in veterinary organizations.
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The lead researcher is somebody who we both know and we are very, very fond of, Dr.
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Liv Oginska.
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Uh, Liv is in Australia now, doing a PhD in this area.
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And so this was actually part of her PhD research.
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She had several other colleagues, um, one of which is somebody who I'm quite fond of.
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He's done a lot of work relating positive psychology to the veterinary space, and that's Martin Cake.
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Dr.
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Martin Cake.
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Uh the study asked whether that's a good name, isn't it?
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Yeah.
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Dr.
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Cake.
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Sorry.
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And he lives and in Australia, so it literally is cake by the ocean.
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It is.
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Oh, see.
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Yeah.
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He's cool.
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He's cool already.
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He's cool.
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I know.
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Someday I hope to meet him.
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Um, this this particular study asked whether psychological safety was actually associated with better feedback and lower turnover intention in veterinary teams, and whether feedback quality helped to explain that link.
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So, how did they do this?
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Well, they they did a cross-sectional study that included a survey distributed to working veterinary team members and practices in both Australia and then across the UK.
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The survey included various validated measures of things like psychological safety, um, supervisor and coworker feedback quality, which is uh in the literature that there is at that is actually a thing and you can measure it, and turnover intention.
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There were a little over 360 people that fully completed the survey, of which about 65% were practicing veterinarians, and then about 31% were veterinary nurses.
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Now, those of you in North America don't freak out at that term nurses.
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Remember, these are people in the UK and Australia where they do actually use that term, right?
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So here we would call them technicians.
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Most of the participants came from small animal practice, and there was an almost even split across leadership and non-leadership roles, which is good because then we could compare those two things.
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Key findings here.
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Well, the analysis revealed that some really powerful things.
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First, psychological safety was positively related to both supervisor and coworker feedback quality.
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I'm going to repeat that.
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Psychological safety was positively related to both supervisor and coworker feedback quality.
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So when we saw high quality feedback from supervisors and coworkers, we also tended to see higher levels of psychological safety.
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Secondly, psychological safety was negatively associated with turnover intention.
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What this is saying is that when psychological safety was rated as low, turnover intention was higher.
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Or when psychological safety was rated as high, turnover intention was lower.
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Now, here's where it gets super interesting.
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Supervisor feedback was significantly related to turnover intention and partially mediated the psychological safety to turnover intention relationship.
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So what this is suggesting is that psychological safety seems to lower people's desire to leave.
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When we work in workplaces that feel psychologically safe, work in veterinary practice that feel psychologically safe, most of us are saying we're less likely to want to leave.
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And that's partly because safer workplaces tended to have better manager feedback.
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So better manager feedback was associated with lower turnover intention.
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Co-worker feedback definitely seemed to matter for psychological safety.
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But here's what's really interesting it didn't significantly mediate turnover intention.
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So this is suggesting that high-quality coworker feedback might contribute to a quote, safer workplace.
00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:11.839
When we work with coworkers who are better at delivering feedback to us, we tend to feel more psychologically safe.
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:20.240
And therefore, we're more likely to own up to and openly discuss our shortcomings, their shortcomings, things that we can improve, so on and so forth.
00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:25.680
But that may not in and of itself directly lead to lower turnover.
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.519
It was the manager feedback that seemed to really matter there.
00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:34.000
You could think of it like this it's like psychological safety is the condition of the road.
00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:43.599
It's, you know, the road that we're driving on on our little road trip to, I don't know, uh, you know, up into the Rocky Mountains or Banff Canada is one thing that's been to that cool ranch.
00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:44.559
To the cool ranch.
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:44.799
Yeah.
00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:46.240
We're driving to the cool ranch.
00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:47.920
We're driving to the cool ranch, right?
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:52.000
So think of psychological safety as the condition of the road that we're driving on.
00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:58.640
Supervisor manager feedback, that's one of the main stretches of road that team members drive on, right?
00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:08.240
So when you work in an organization and you're not the boss, the primary road that you're driving on each and every day is the road of your boss's feedback.
00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:15.759
When our boss's feedback is good, when it's high quality, it just makes that road feel so much smoother, right?
00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:22.720
We're cruising, one arm on the on the steering wheel, one arm out, not really worrying about potholes.
00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:30.000
So when the road is smoother, fewer people are thinking of exiting that highway for another one, right?
00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.839
Fewer of us are thinking of getting off that road and finding a different road.
00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:37.279
Andy, you just heard me blabber on about this study.
00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:40.640
I'm really curious what stood out to you more here?
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:55.680
The fact that coworker feedback seems to matter for psychological safety just as much as supervisor feedback, or the fact that supervisor feedback matters for both psychological safety and retention.
00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:01.359
Honestly, the thing that stood out to me was the coworker feedback.
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:07.200
And I think that's because I already had an idea of how important supervisor feedback was.
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.440
And I'm listening to you talk about the value of coworker feedback.
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.160
And yeah, right.
00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:21.599
If we are in an environment where we feel psychologically safe with our coworkers, right?
00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:28.400
With the people that are in the trenches doing the same stuff that we're doing, supporting us directly.
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:42.160
And we have good psychologically safe feedback opportunities between them, that makes so much sense that it would help create what, like a stronger foundation to that road.
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:57.039
Maybe like the rebar underneath said road to cool ranch is stronger because you know that you've got a safe space with your team so that you can build up that psychological safety across the board.
00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:04.400
Now, the interesting thing that's kind of rolling around in my brain as I'm saying this is the fact that it all relates, right?
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:22.559
So our ability to share productive, psychologically safe feedback with our coworkers probably starts with how we experience feedback from our managers and what that experience is like and how our manager models said opportunity and feedback.
00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:24.720
So I think that they're all related.
00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:26.079
I think that they all matter.
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:29.680
I really, I think, I mean, I'm gonna throw my opinion out there.
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:46.880
I think that it would be harder to find an opportunity or an environment where coworker feedback is super psychologically safe and everything's great and people feel good, and that rebar is strong and that foundation is good, and the feedback between supervisor and team member is crap.
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:48.720
I I completely agree.
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.480
And I think that that speaks to a lot of the literature and psychological safety.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.640
It is frequently referred to as a team-based localized phenomenon.
00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:05.039
And of course, the supervisor is part of that team uh and seems to be the primary driver of it in a lot of the research, but it's not the only driver of it.
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:06.400
The team seems to matter.
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.480
And so, yeah, I think you're onto something.
00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:12.559
So, this of course begs the question: how does this matter in real veterinary life?
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:15.599
I mean, this is a veterinary study, so how does this show up in our life?
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:17.039
What can we do with this?
00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:19.519
Uh I think we can do a lot.
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:25.119
The first thing that I want to talk about is that leaders seem to formalize the emotional tone of a workplace.
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:28.720
Now, that doesn't mean that they are the only ones who do it.
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:35.759
It just means that leaders, to the point that we were just discussing, have an outsized influence over the emotional tone.
00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:42.720
Andy, because of our recent graduate program that you and I went through, we we are now familiar with some of these theories.
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:48.480
Uh, there's a theory in applied communication that you are aware of called the constitutive view of communication.
00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:50.960
That took me a long time to say that first word, by the way.
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:51.920
Constitutive.
00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:59.759
Uh as you know, Andy, it basically says that communication is the primary method for experiencing and making meaning of social realities, right?
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.359
In the workplace, those in charge have outsized power.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:15.039
So what they say and what they don't say, how messages are delivered, all those kinds of things go a long way to establishing the tone and feel of the workplace climate.
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:19.599
Now, Andy, you've worked in one or two veterinary settings in your day.
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:31.359
In your experience, when you think about real veterinary workplaces, what are some of the small, like everyday communicative behaviors from leaders in particular?
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:33.759
So from supervisors, managers, those in charge.
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:42.640
What are some of the small everyday communicative behaviors from those people that, in your opinion, most quickly shape the emotional tone of a team?
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:46.079
A good handful came to mind for me here.
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:54.640
And I think that it all starts with the attitude that we show up with, you know, because that that fuels, right?
00:22:54.720 --> 00:23:02.160
That fuels your tone, that fuels your nonverbals, that fuels the energy of the vibe you give off when you walk into the room.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:05.279
Are you stepping in with a bit of an open mind?
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:10.480
Are you stepping in with a bit of, you know, cranky baggage from something that happened earlier?
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:12.079
You can usually tell, right?
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:13.200
Your vibe is off.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:15.759
And I think that there's a lot to be said for that.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:18.000
Nonverbals are huge, right?
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:19.759
Do you make eye contact?
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:20.640
Do you acknowledge?
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:21.359
Do you nod?
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:22.079
Do you smile?
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:23.839
And then that moves into the greeting, right?
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:25.440
Do you say the person's name?
00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:29.039
Do you say good morning or hey, you know, how's it going, Josh?
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:30.160
I haven't seen you in a minute.
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:31.519
What's what's new with you?
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:36.000
That intentional effort to connect with the person.
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:41.599
But I also think that there's a lot of, because I'm thinking of like not so awesome, right?
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.759
And emotional tones that have come from leaders and what's kind of led to that.
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:51.920
And I think some of that can come from getting on the bandwagon of whatever the feel is in the room, right?
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:56.480
I know for me, sometimes I would go into meetings and there was a lot of complaining.
00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:00.079
And there was a lot of, well, this isn't happening and why is that not happening?
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.519
And I can't get this done and complaining, complaining, complaining.
00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:07.759
And if I jumped on that bandwagon, yeah, this is terrible.
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:09.359
Yeah, this sucks.
00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:11.440
Then there's there's the tone, right?
00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:13.200
There's the emotional tone for the meeting.
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:18.160
Where if I was able to go in with, okay, yeah, this sucks.
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:23.519
And what can we do to make it suck less and make that shift?
00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:24.720
It can be helpful.
00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:26.799
So acknowledging the suck, right?
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:33.519
But trying to move past it in a way that's productive and not just getting on the bandwagon and being like, yeah, give me that pitchfork.
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:34.319
Here we go.
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:36.240
Yeah, that all makes sense.
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:52.720
Um, I think it's, yeah, all the things that you're talking about here, the mindset and mentality that we're bringing into the conversation is going to show up in our nonverbals and our tone, and that's going to impact the emotional tone of the people around us uh when we're in a leadership position.
00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:55.200
How we greet, do we even greet?
00:24:55.440 --> 00:25:01.680
You know, Andy, you and I are currently teaching our certificate in cultivating positive team communication program.
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:09.039
And in in a recent lecture with the students, we talked about drive-by greetings and how often like drive-by greetings happen at work.
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:13.039
Hey, Andy, walking right by, not even making eye contact, right?
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:16.799
Or how drive-by greetings start, you know, happen at the beginning of a meeting.
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:18.559
Uh, hey, team, good to see you all.
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:20.000
Okay, let's dive in, right?
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:22.000
Like that's that's not really a greeting.
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:26.960
That's a like, we are here to do things, and that changes the emotional tone, all that.
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:32.799
Um, another takeaway for me here is that feedback is really more than correcting behavior.
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:35.279
Feedback is actually a relational tool.
00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:38.880
Like, that's really one of the, I think, the huge takeaways from this study.
00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:44.079
A technically accurate message of you've done something wrong and it needs to improve, right?
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:46.400
Can still do relational damage.
00:25:46.640 --> 00:26:01.920
Feedback delivered without empathy, without respect, clarity, lacking support, those kinds of things, like what you were talking about earlier from a manager or a coworker is likely to reduce the psychological safety within that team environment or at least within that relationship.
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:08.079
And when that psychological safety goes down, when it's reduced, the possibility for stumbles and mistakes go up.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:32.160
If we are not cultivating psychological safety with the way that we communicate, with that feedback loop and how we deliver it, we're actually creating patient safety issues, especially in busy veterinary practices, because we're making it unsafe to ask for help, to repair things, to uh admit and discuss mistakes, use them as learning opportunities.
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:39.359
So if we want teams that stick around and deliver exceptional patient care, we really need to invest in manager communication skills.
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:44.319
Imagine a lead technician who makes a dosing mistake that gets caught before harm occurs.
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:45.440
Okay, cool, good.
00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:47.119
We we we caught it.
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.119
It was a near miss, right?
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:53.039
So the manager says to this technician, you need to be more careful.
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:54.880
This can't happen again.
00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:57.119
Technically accurate statement, right?
00:26:57.200 --> 00:26:57.680
It is true.
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:00.000
She does need to be more careful.
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:01.759
This cannot happen again, right?
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:04.720
The next time it could actually cause harm if we don't catch it, right?
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:06.240
But it leaves shame.
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:09.839
It leaves distance, it leaves silence behind.
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:13.920
It doesn't create, to your point earlier, a conversation.
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:16.960
Now let's insert a completely different manager.
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:21.759
Or this manager working better, like communicating better.
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:22.640
Okay.
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:23.519
Same thing.
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:25.680
Dosing mistake, got caught early.
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:26.559
Wow.
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:28.160
I'm really glad that we caught that.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:31.759
Now let's slow down a bit here together.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:36.240
Walk me through what was happening before this error occurred.
00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:42.000
And then let's use that to like figure out together what we can do to make sure this kind of thing doesn't ever happen again.
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:45.920
Same issue, but very different cultural consequence.
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:51.440
Another thing here that I wanted to point out from the study is that leaders can shape the communication climate.
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:56.720
You said this earlier, Andy, by role modeling what good communication looks like.
00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:01.599
How leaders communicate is going to influence how the team communicates, right?
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:13.519
While this paper focused specifically on feedback quality, the truth is our teams are watching how we communicate when things are good and when things need correction or redirection.
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:46.480
Okay, so so those of you listening to this, you've looked over the paper.
00:28:46.639 --> 00:28:48.159
Maybe you're convinced now, right?
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:49.039
You've heard these things.
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:53.039
Now you're wondering, okay, cool, Josh, how do I put this stuff into action?
00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:58.319
Well, here are some ideas to help you renovate the communication culture in your practice.
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:00.960
The first one plays off of what I just said.
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:04.319
We need to train feedback as an essential leadership skill.
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:07.440
I might even call it an essential leadership competency.
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:18.079
The authors of this study concluded that organizations should assess managers' feedback skills and invest in training opportunities to strengthen those interpersonal competencies.
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:19.680
And I wholeheartedly agree.
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:21.279
And Andy, I think you do too.
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:22.240
Heck yeah.
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:24.639
I'll even take it a step further and I'll say this.
00:29:24.879 --> 00:29:40.639
I think that high quality communication from veterinary leaders should be considered as important a technical skill as things like inventory management, accounting, HR proficiencies, anything else that we put in the job description for our management team.
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:42.720
Oh, and this isn't just for managers.
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:58.319
Progressive veterinary practices and organizations are going to assess and train these communication skills for all roles, recognizing that psychological safety is a patient safety issue, and high quality communication across roles will improve it.
00:29:58.879 --> 00:30:05.519
Secondly, measure psychological safety as preventative medicine for your practice culture.
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:11.599
Based on this study, we could actually consider psychological safety as the lagging indicator of feedback quality.
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:18.720
We could call feedback quality the leading indicator here, but it might also be a leading indicator of turnover.
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:39.119
So routinely measuring psychological safety in our teams and throughout our organization, could actually be a way to improve patient safety and assess the effectiveness of our communication training program and alert us to the growing or hopefully decreasing risk of team members taking the off-ramp to another job.
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:43.359
The psychological safety index scan, which was uh developed in partnership between Dr.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:52.720
Amy Edmondson, I like to think of her as the Empress of Psychological Safety, and uh an organization in the UK, a consulting firm called Ceres Change.
00:30:53.039 --> 00:31:00.639
That PSI scan is a robust platform for measuring psychological safety in teams or at the organizational and enterprise level.
00:31:00.879 --> 00:31:07.119
And benchmarking scores against, I think now it's probably well over like 30,000 teams around the world.
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:14.159
Turns out that Flourish is actually trained and licensed to use that platform in veterinary teams practices and across entire organizations.
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:18.399
So if that's something that's of interest to our listeners, we can absolutely help with that.
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:20.879
But they could also just measure it themselves.
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:25.599
There are validated brief psychological safety surveys readily available online.
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:27.759
And we can even share them with our listeners.
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:34.000
In fact, if you want to just email us at Flourish, you can send the email to info at flourish.vet.
00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:40.639
Uh, we are happy to share one of those validated psychological safety surveys with you and help you get started.
00:31:40.879 --> 00:31:47.759
The next thing I wanted to address is making feedback quality a key element in managers' performance reviews.
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:55.839
And I mean, like really like actually measuring this and then making it a part of how managers' performance is assessed.
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:04.399
If we're going to consider this a leadership competency, then we should assess it and I don't know, deliver quality feedback to managers based on that assessment.
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:05.200
I mean, right, right?
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:06.720
It's the whole feedback loop.
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:10.639
This could be done, I think, by a mix of upward feedback from team members.
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:13.920
So we can actually like survey their team members.
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:21.759
You could do it confidentially, you could do it anonymously, but ask them, you know, to rate the quality of feedback that they are getting from that manager.
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:24.399
We could also do this by way of observed behavior.
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:31.599
We could make it a point to observe our managers delivering feedback and uh assess that subjectively.
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:47.279
And then we can also use outcome measures, you know, so we could have a survey item for every direct report and team member that that manager influences or impacts, and simply ask them to rate things like my manager makes me feel respected during difficult conversations, right?
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:48.960
Like those are ways that we can do that.
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:59.839
Okay, Andy, I've shared with you three renovation ideas here: training for quality feedback skills, measuring psychological safety, and then making feedback part of managers' performance reviews.
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:07.440
If a practice owner or a corporate executive came to you tomorrow and said, Andy, which one of those should I do first?
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:09.839
Which one would you recommend and why?
00:33:10.159 --> 00:33:15.759
The medical mind in my brain wants to do diagnostics, right?
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.000
I want a baseline.
00:33:18.159 --> 00:33:21.039
I want to know where we are before we even get started.
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:28.319
And so I think I would probably um recommend measuring psych safety within your team first.
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:37.440
Kind of see where you're at, see what's going well, see where things are really psychologically safe, see where maybe you need to spend a little bit of extra time and effort.
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:53.279
And then you'd be able to implement those other ideas in ways that might be a little bit more impactful, as opposed to just assuming that you're totally, totally not psychologically safe, or that there's an absolute lack of psychological safety, or that, oh no, no, everybody feels safe.
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:58.159
I definitely make people feel uh comfortable and relaxed in a difficult conversation.
00:33:58.319 --> 00:33:59.359
You're gonna know, right?
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:02.639
You're gonna know the reality of what's happening in your team.
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:08.720
And I think that is a really helpful place to start for a lot of organizations out there.
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:09.519
I love that.
00:34:09.680 --> 00:34:13.440
I love that because you know, we often talk about the importance of the feedback loop.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:20.800
And when we're saying that term feedback loop, we're saying feedback is not just about how we deliver it, but it's also how we receive it.
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:36.720
And what you're kind of suggesting is like if if a manager or hospital owner or corporate executive starts with establishing this diagnostic, with getting this baseline, that is a way for them to start practicing how they receive feedback because that's what that survey is.
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:43.360
It's feedback in large part about their leadership practices and the impact that those practices are having.
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:50.239
So it gives them this really golden opportunity to practice improving the feedback loop within their organization.
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:51.039
I love that.
00:34:51.279 --> 00:34:56.639
Well, and it shares too with the team that you as a leader are taking this seriously, right?
00:34:56.800 --> 00:34:58.480
That whole modeling the behavior.
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:00.559
This is a great way to do that.
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:01.679
This is important to me.
00:35:01.759 --> 00:35:05.920
It's important enough that I'm willing to create this assessment.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:07.840
I'm willing to have these conversations.
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:10.559
I'm willing to hear the feedback.
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:12.880
And I think that's an important place to start.
00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:14.000
I totally agree.
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:15.440
I think that's well stated.
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:18.320
Now, of course, we're talking a lot about communication stuff here.
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:24.559
So I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that Flourish has been working on these exact kinds of things for quite some time.
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:30.719
Uh, listeners, Andy and I both completed a graduate program in applied positive communications and conflict management.
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:40.079
And we've used that education and some other uh areas of study that we've done to create the first ever certificate in cultivating positive team communication.
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:41.759
I briefly mentioned it earlier.
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.800
We really believe that thriving teams don't happen by accident.
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:48.320
They're built through everyday communications and conversations.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:50.960
And this study just really confirms that for us.
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:57.279
So we'll we'll share a link in the in the show notes uh to that certificate program so you can see what it's all about.
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:07.440
Uh and uh maybe you can get registered for the next public cohort of it, or maybe your organization wants us to deliver it for your leaders, for your teams uh across the organization.
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:09.039
We can do that privately as well.
00:36:09.279 --> 00:36:16.719
Now, there's one person, we're talking about thriving here, thriving teams, and there's one person that I know unequivocally is already thriving.
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:19.599
Probably in his or her own special way.
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:24.239
Andy, I think maybe you have an idea of who I'm referring to here.
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:26.719
Vibing and thriving with Florida Man.
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:28.320
Love it.
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:30.880
Florida Man is always always thriving.
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:36.079
I don't know that it is in the traditional sense, but it's definitely in his own magic.
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:40.320
And this episode's Florida Man is no different.
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:48.880
Um, our headline comes from somewhere called Castleberry, which I actually don't know where that is, but it's somewhere in Florida.
00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:51.840
That's irrelevant because the headline is amazing.
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:58.719
Florida man leaving strip club runs himself over with his own truck.
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:01.279
How is that even possible?
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:05.199
Apparently, he ran over his own leg.
00:37:05.759 --> 00:37:15.599
There is a picture, which I will include in the show notes, of the man with the car door open and he's laying on the ground with the truck running him over.
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:16.159
What?
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:17.519
I've been in thriving.
00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:19.679
I been in thriving.
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:21.279
Way to go, Florida man.
00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:23.279
Um winning again.
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:24.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:26.400
Never, never disappoints.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:27.599
Never disappoints.
00:37:27.759 --> 00:37:28.639
Castleberry.
00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:31.199
What a great name for town or city or whatever.
00:37:31.279 --> 00:37:31.759
Castleberry.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:32.639
Castleberry.
00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:33.840
It sounds very noble.
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:36.639
Full of full of Lord Florida Man.
00:37:37.279 --> 00:37:38.400
Yeah, yeah, seriously.
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:39.599
Lord Florida Man.
00:37:39.759 --> 00:37:42.320
Oh, I would love to see Lord Florida Man's castle.
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:47.279
All right, that brings another episode of the Veterinary Culture Lab to a close.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:48.719
Thank you all for joining us again.
00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:50.159
Don't forget to subscribe.
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:51.199
Please rate us.
00:37:51.279 --> 00:37:52.159
It definitely helps.
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:56.559
And, you know, share this with a colleague or two if you think that they might be interested in this.
00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:58.719
Uh, other than that, we'll look forward to seeing you next time.
00:37:58.800 --> 00:37:59.679
Thanks, listeners.
00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:01.360
Bye, everybody.
00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:13.759
Thanks for hanging out with us in the Veterinary Culture Lab, covered by the science of workplace well-being, and brought to you by Flourish Veterinary Consulting.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:21.039
If today's episode sparked an idea, made you smile, or got you thinking, hey, I should totally try that.
00:38:21.279 --> 00:38:22.159
Let us know.
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:23.440
What do you think?
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:30.159
Be sure to subscribe, share, and remember a thriving veterinary culture is possible.
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:32.480
And you don't have to build it alone.
00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:10.800
Welcome to the Veterinary Culture Lab, where science meets real-world application.
00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:12.240
I'm Andy Davison.
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:14.080
And I'm Josh Weisman.
00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:19.280
Together we'll show you an evidence-based blueprint for renovating culture in your veterinary team.
00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:21.120
One episode at a time.
00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:28.399
For a lot of us, hearing Can I Give You Some Feedback instantly puts us on the defensive.
00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:34.479
Turns out the way feedback is delivered is actually shaping psychological safety, trust, and retention.
00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:42.320
So let's dig into some brand new veterinary research and uncover why feedback and communication quality matter more than we think.
00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:49.359
Hey Andy, good to be back with you recording another episode of the Veterinary Culture Lab podcast.
00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:50.240
Super excited.
00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:51.600
How are things with you?
00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:52.240
Right.
00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:53.840
This is something I always look forward to.
00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:59.039
Like these are always such fun conversations that we have a plan, right?
00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:00.960
But it's like a loose plan.
00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:03.359
And then the way that it always unfolds is super fun.
00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:05.439
So I am thrilled to be here.
00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:06.560
I feel like it's been a minute.
00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:07.280
So yeah.
00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:08.719
It it has been a minute.
00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:11.920
Um, you were traveling internationally recently.
00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:19.599
Um, I was also traveling internationally recently, although slightly less exciting international travel than yours.
00:01:20.079 --> 00:01:25.200
Uh and yeah, it's I it's been it's been a hot minute since we've sat down together.
00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:25.599
Yeah.
00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:26.640
I agree.
00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:28.719
I feel like I miss our chats.
00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:30.560
I know, I know.
00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:32.480
Um, yeah.
00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:34.000
No, go ahead, please.
00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:35.120
Tell me what's what's on your mind.
00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:35.599
What's going on?
00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:37.200
I was just gonna say, you're right.
00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:40.959
We've both been doing some really exciting international travel.
00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:53.359
And even though we don't have time to get into the details of all the amazing things that we did while we were traveling, I would love to hear what's kind of something that you're bringing home from your traveling experiences.
00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:56.799
Um, to triple check on schedules.
00:01:57.120 --> 00:01:57.760
There you go.
00:01:57.920 --> 00:01:59.439
That is a valid thing.
00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:01.120
That is an important thing.
00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:10.240
Especially when traveling internationally, it is a good idea to know exactly when things are happening so that you can plan accordingly.
00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:12.639
I learned that lesson on this last trip.
00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:20.080
I feel like all the dads around the world are like, well, yeah, that's what I've been trying to tell you this whole time.
00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:21.840
I think you're right.
00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:22.639
What about you?
00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:26.800
What is what is one small thing you're taking away from your recent international travel?
00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:32.319
You never know when you're going to be absolutely surprised in the most beautiful ways.
00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:40.400
So I think what I'm hearing here is you you never know when you're going to be sitting by a swimming pool and a baby elephant will be drinking from it.
00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:41.360
Exactly.
00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:49.360
Under a night sky that has the Milky Way brighter and more stunning than you've ever seen it in your life.
00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:49.840
Yes.
00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:50.240
Yep.
00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:57.919
Uh so listeners, if that doesn't give you a hint as to why Andy's international travel was significantly cooler than mine, now you have it.
00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:07.759
Uh Andy, I I wanted to share something with you that I got to experience while you were away in Africa, by the way, for those of you who haven't figured that out yet.
00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:13.599
Um, yeah, I was uh, you know, uh Greta and I constantly kind of joke about moving.
00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:20.719
Um you know, like at this point, you're probably like, yeah, right, Josh, you've been talking about this for four years now.
00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:22.400
Um but we do.
00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:25.120
We, you know, we we we joke about it and we we look at things.
00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:31.680
And so occasionally, like, you know, I'm online looking at like I wonder what it would cost to buy a small place in northern Kauai.
00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:35.599
What it would cost to get a little bit of property up in the mountains.
00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:42.000
You know, one of our uh clients owns a ranch up in the mountains, and so that kind of got us thinking.
00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:55.280
And so I was looking around and um I came across this like horse property uh that was like really quite affordable in the mountains, so like a good chunk of land, and I mean, not great, we don't have horses, but I I thought of you when I saw it.
00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:06.400
I was like, huh, you know, maybe we could do that, and then I don't know, maybe Andy and Mike could come hang out for a while, you know, they could bring Boston or Marshall out here or something like that.
00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:07.039
Yeah.
00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:18.000
Um what I discovered though is that this horse ranch was actually being sold by the former CEO of whatever company it is that makes Doritos.
00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:22.160
Like he was the guy that like was intimately involved in Doritos.
00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:25.920
And I was looking at this thing and I was just thinking, cool ranch.
00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:26.959
There you go.
00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:28.160
Well set up.
00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:29.279
Well set up.
00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:30.000
Thank you.
00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:30.560
Thank you.
00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:32.079
Yeah, you weren't quite sure.
00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:33.439
You weren't quite sure.
00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:36.639
I it I didn't get it until the ranch part.
00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:38.879
I thought it was gonna go horse related.
00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:41.040
Yeah, but I was like, Doritos, there's something like that.
00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:41.519
Doritos.
00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:46.480
There's this is my lame attempt to take um today's uh dad joke.
00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:49.279
I'm showing the dad joke from my calendar to Andy.
00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:53.120
You obviously can't see that, listeners, but yeah, this this was today's dad joke.
00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:56.959
What did one Dorito farmer say to the other Dorito farmer?
00:04:57.839 --> 00:04:59.519
Cool ranch.
00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:06.560
Yeah, see, see, listeners, this is the creativity and the sass that I need to deal with on a daily basis.
00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:12.639
Not only is this man an amazing dad joke teller, he can take any dad joke and make it believable.
00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:13.360
I know.
00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:13.920
Thank you.
00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:14.959
That's very kind.
00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:18.000
I'll keep that in mind during your next performance evaluation.
00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:22.079
Um, let's let's go ahead and get to the task at hand here, shall we, Andy?
00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:24.879
I I'm really excited for today's episode in particular.
00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:26.399
Uh, I mean, I'm always excited, right?
00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:30.480
Because I like to nerd out in this stuff, but this one is cool because two reasons.
00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:34.160
Number one, this study that we're gonna discuss is hot off the presses.
00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:35.040
Like this is brand new.
00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:38.000
It was just recently released here in 2026.
00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:42.959
And it was a piece of research conducted in veterinary medicine.
00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:49.519
You know, sometimes we take studies and we kind of apply it to vetmed, but this one actually was a veterinary uh piece of research.
00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:58.720
And it's extra special because it covers new ground in an area that kind of lives in a really special place in our hearts here at Flourish.
00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:03.519
And the findings are actually really super practical for veterinary teams and for managers.
00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:07.439
Now, Andy, I I have a question I want to ask you to kind of kick things off here.
00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:16.800
But first, I want to ask you sort of a pre-question, which is when you hear things like, Andy, I'd really love to sit down and give you a little bit of feedback.
00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:19.519
What happens in your mind and in your body?
00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:22.000
Oh God, my hackles go up.
00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:24.160
I'm certain that I screwed up.
00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:25.839
I'm certain that I'm in trouble.
00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:27.120
It's not good.
00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:28.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:31.279
And that's like typically how we respond to that word, feedback, right?
00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:32.160
Like in the workplace.
00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:34.079
We think of it as like, oh God.
00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:37.439
So here's what I want to ask you to kind of kick things off.
00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:54.240
Before we really dive into the study, Andy, I want you to think of a time that a manager or a boss or someone in some position of power, maybe even back in tech school or undergrad, whatever it might be, somebody gave you constructive feedback that landed well.
00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:56.079
Like they did a good job of it.
00:06:56.319 --> 00:07:00.800
And I want to ask you, what made it land well instead of sting?
00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:05.439
What did they do that made the delivery receivable?
00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:07.839
This is such a good question.
00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:10.959
And it was actually a lot of fun to think about.
00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:14.800
Um, and it actually does come from tech school.
00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:20.959
That's funny that you went back there because that that that's the example that I'm gonna share is an example from tech school.
00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:31.199
And the reason that this particular situation stands out is because it was one of the times where I was given feedback and I didn't get all prickly about it.
00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:36.720
My rebellious side didn't come like flying out because it's in there, it's definitely in there.
00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:38.879
I have no idea what you're talking about.
00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:39.439
Right?
00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:40.000
It's shocker.
00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:40.480
Shocker.
00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:44.000
You've never, never seen any inclination of a rebellious side.
00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:44.639
But go on.
00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:49.920
But this particular situation, it kind of I think there's a little bit of a backstory, right?
00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:58.480
Because the person that gave me this feedback was somebody that I had developed a great relationship with already.
00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:01.040
And it was definitely a professor of mine.
00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:01.439
Okay.
00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:03.040
So it was somebody in authority.
00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:08.720
And as a student, to kind of create a connection with this person was really pretty cool.
00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:17.680
And the more I thought about it, it happened because that professor, that teacher made the effort well ahead of time, right?
00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:26.319
To create a connection and establish a really awesome professional relationship with me and with the other students in my class.
00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:30.399
My tech school class was smallish, which was awesome because we all knew each other.
00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:34.159
We all were intimately involved in our journey through tech school.
00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:37.600
And so I had known this professor for a couple of years.
00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:43.200
She knew me for a couple of years, and there was already that effort made to create that connection.
00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:51.519
So when she said, Hey, there's something I want to talk to you about, I didn't automatically go, Oh God, I'm in trouble, right?
00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:57.519
Because we had talked about stuff before, and it wasn't always bad stuff.
00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:00.799
So there was already that sort of expectation there.
00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:11.120
And when we did sit down to talk about, you know, the thing that I didn't do awesomely, it was definitely about the thing that I didn't do awesomely.
00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:21.279
It was not about me failing as a student, me not understanding the expectation, me making assumptions that weren't true, me, you know what I mean?
00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:27.679
It was about the thing that I didn't execute awesomely or well, really.
00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:30.480
And we talked about what that was.
00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:32.480
And it was a conversation.
00:09:32.799 --> 00:09:38.159
It wasn't, hey, this is what you did wrong, and this is what you need to do differently, and now go forth and be different.
00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:42.399
It was, hey, this happened and this is why it's a problem.
00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:44.480
What are we gonna do?
00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:48.480
Because we both see the value in making that change.
00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:51.360
So it was like a it was like a joint effort, right?
00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:56.639
It wasn't a principal's office sit down and tell me all the things I did wrong and why I'm such a terrible person.
00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:02.879
It was, hey, let's work together to figure out what happened here and what we can do moving forward.
00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:05.200
What impact did that experience have on you?
00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:06.639
Huge, huge.
00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:09.279
Okay, first of all, I was a student, right?
00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:15.840
So I was a wee child and I hadn't had a lot of experiences like this, right?
00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:29.120
I mean, I had had experiences with undergrad professors who you didn't know and were very, you gotta do this if you want to get an A, and parents who absolutely told you what to do, when to do it, and you never had a say, right?
00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:39.200
And so to have this experience, I think that's why it stands out to me so much, is because it was one of the first that really collaborated with me, right?
00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:53.279
And like saw me as an equal in this situation and invited me in to be a part of the solution because I was so used to being told what to do and you know, what you got to do is this, and now go do it.
00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:55.039
And that was different for me.
00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:58.320
And I think that really is one of the reasons why this stood out so much.
00:10:58.639 --> 00:10:59.600
Yeah, that's super cool.
00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:01.440
I'm so grateful that you had that experience.
00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:25.200
And I love that because what you just described is basically the real world version of what this paper is suggesting, is the big idea that feedback quality, especially from people in positions of authority, those in status, feedback quality might actually be one of the ways that we don't just cultivate psychological safety, but that psychological safety makes employee retention sticky.
00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:29.759
And we all know about the turnover problems that many veterinary practices face.
00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:38.399
The thing is that I sometimes worry that a lot of the retention conversations that we're having in veterinary medicine become compensation conversations.
00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:41.679
We we start to really view retention as a compensation problem.
00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:46.000
Now, listen, compensation, it absolutely matters and it makes a difference.
00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:53.120
But when it comes to retention in particular, compensation is not necessarily the best lever.
00:11:53.679 --> 00:12:00.159
At best, compensation might get someone to tolerate a bad workplace for longer.
00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:03.600
We like to refer to this as like the golden handcuffs, right?
00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:11.600
Well, I hate it here, I'm miserable, I'm disengaged, but I can't afford to leave because nowhere else will pay me this much, right?
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:17.440
Money alone, though, cannot create a workplace environment that people actually really want to be a part of.
00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:20.639
So I really come to think of compensation as hygiene.
00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:22.000
It's table stakes.
00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.480
It what's it's what gets you in the door.
00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.399
We could call better pay a justice issue, right?
00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:35.600
Like this is it's not really about retention per se, it's about justice, it's about equity, it's about what's fair.
00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:39.759
That's how I think we should frame the compensation problems that we face.
00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:46.559
Uh this study, though, points to communication as a real lever for retention and team thriving.
00:12:46.639 --> 00:13:04.480
Uh essentially, what we're saying here is that when communication excels, when it's really good, especially when it comes to the feedback loop between team members and managers, people might stay because they feel safe, supported, clear on expectations, and they have an opportunity to grow and develop.
00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:08.080
So this episode is not pay doesn't matter.
00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:10.159
That's not what we're saying, okay?
00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:15.519
It's you can't pay your way to a thriving culture.
00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:17.360
So let's dive into the study itself.
00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:31.360
The study has a very long name, as academic papers tend to do sometimes, a cross-sectional study exploring associations between psychological safety, employee turnover intention, and feedback skills in veterinary organizations.
00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:36.240
The lead researcher is somebody who we both know and we are very, very fond of, Dr.
00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:37.919
Liv Oginska.
00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:41.840
Uh, Liv is in Australia now, doing a PhD in this area.
00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:44.480
And so this was actually part of her PhD research.
00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:48.240
She had several other colleagues, um, one of which is somebody who I'm quite fond of.
00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:53.759
He's done a lot of work relating positive psychology to the veterinary space, and that's Martin Cake.
00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:54.080
Dr.
00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:54.879
Martin Cake.
00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:57.840
Uh the study asked whether that's a good name, isn't it?
00:13:57.919 --> 00:13:58.159
Yeah.
00:13:58.399 --> 00:13:58.720
Dr.
00:13:58.879 --> 00:13:59.279
Cake.
00:13:59.440 --> 00:13:59.679
Sorry.
00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:03.519
And he lives and in Australia, so it literally is cake by the ocean.
00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:04.320
It is.
00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:05.600
Oh, see.
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:06.320
Yeah.
00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:07.039
He's cool.
00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:07.919
He's cool already.
00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:08.639
He's cool.
00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:09.039
I know.
00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:10.480
Someday I hope to meet him.
00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:24.399
Um, this this particular study asked whether psychological safety was actually associated with better feedback and lower turnover intention in veterinary teams, and whether feedback quality helped to explain that link.
00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:25.759
So, how did they do this?
00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:34.960
Well, they they did a cross-sectional study that included a survey distributed to working veterinary team members and practices in both Australia and then across the UK.
00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:50.879
The survey included various validated measures of things like psychological safety, um, supervisor and coworker feedback quality, which is uh in the literature that there is at that is actually a thing and you can measure it, and turnover intention.
00:14:51.120 --> 00:15:01.759
There were a little over 360 people that fully completed the survey, of which about 65% were practicing veterinarians, and then about 31% were veterinary nurses.
00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:05.679
Now, those of you in North America don't freak out at that term nurses.
00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:10.720
Remember, these are people in the UK and Australia where they do actually use that term, right?
00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:12.799
So here we would call them technicians.
00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:23.360
Most of the participants came from small animal practice, and there was an almost even split across leadership and non-leadership roles, which is good because then we could compare those two things.
00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:24.720
Key findings here.
00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:28.000
Well, the analysis revealed that some really powerful things.
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:35.840
First, psychological safety was positively related to both supervisor and coworker feedback quality.
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:36.960
I'm going to repeat that.
00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:42.799
Psychological safety was positively related to both supervisor and coworker feedback quality.
00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:52.480
So when we saw high quality feedback from supervisors and coworkers, we also tended to see higher levels of psychological safety.
00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:58.399
Secondly, psychological safety was negatively associated with turnover intention.
00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:05.440
What this is saying is that when psychological safety was rated as low, turnover intention was higher.
00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:11.039
Or when psychological safety was rated as high, turnover intention was lower.
00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:13.200
Now, here's where it gets super interesting.
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:22.879
Supervisor feedback was significantly related to turnover intention and partially mediated the psychological safety to turnover intention relationship.
00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:28.639
So what this is suggesting is that psychological safety seems to lower people's desire to leave.
00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:38.399
When we work in workplaces that feel psychologically safe, work in veterinary practice that feel psychologically safe, most of us are saying we're less likely to want to leave.
00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:44.080
And that's partly because safer workplaces tended to have better manager feedback.
00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:47.919
So better manager feedback was associated with lower turnover intention.
00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:52.879
Co-worker feedback definitely seemed to matter for psychological safety.
00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:58.639
But here's what's really interesting it didn't significantly mediate turnover intention.
00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:05.279
So this is suggesting that high-quality coworker feedback might contribute to a quote, safer workplace.
00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:11.839
When we work with coworkers who are better at delivering feedback to us, we tend to feel more psychologically safe.
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:20.240
And therefore, we're more likely to own up to and openly discuss our shortcomings, their shortcomings, things that we can improve, so on and so forth.
00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:25.680
But that may not in and of itself directly lead to lower turnover.
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.519
It was the manager feedback that seemed to really matter there.
00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:34.000
You could think of it like this it's like psychological safety is the condition of the road.
00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:43.599
It's, you know, the road that we're driving on on our little road trip to, I don't know, uh, you know, up into the Rocky Mountains or Banff Canada is one thing that's been to that cool ranch.
00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:44.559
To the cool ranch.
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:44.799
Yeah.
00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:46.240
We're driving to the cool ranch.
00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:47.920
We're driving to the cool ranch, right?
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:52.000
So think of psychological safety as the condition of the road that we're driving on.
00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:58.640
Supervisor manager feedback, that's one of the main stretches of road that team members drive on, right?
00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:08.240
So when you work in an organization and you're not the boss, the primary road that you're driving on each and every day is the road of your boss's feedback.
00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:15.759
When our boss's feedback is good, when it's high quality, it just makes that road feel so much smoother, right?
00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:22.720
We're cruising, one arm on the on the steering wheel, one arm out, not really worrying about potholes.
00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:30.000
So when the road is smoother, fewer people are thinking of exiting that highway for another one, right?
00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.839
Fewer of us are thinking of getting off that road and finding a different road.
00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:37.279
Andy, you just heard me blabber on about this study.
00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:40.640
I'm really curious what stood out to you more here?
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:55.680
The fact that coworker feedback seems to matter for psychological safety just as much as supervisor feedback, or the fact that supervisor feedback matters for both psychological safety and retention.
00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:01.359
Honestly, the thing that stood out to me was the coworker feedback.
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:07.200
And I think that's because I already had an idea of how important supervisor feedback was.
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.440
And I'm listening to you talk about the value of coworker feedback.
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.160
And yeah, right.
00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:21.599
If we are in an environment where we feel psychologically safe with our coworkers, right?
00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:28.400
With the people that are in the trenches doing the same stuff that we're doing, supporting us directly.
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:42.160
And we have good psychologically safe feedback opportunities between them, that makes so much sense that it would help create what, like a stronger foundation to that road.
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:57.039
Maybe like the rebar underneath said road to cool ranch is stronger because you know that you've got a safe space with your team so that you can build up that psychological safety across the board.
00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:04.400
Now, the interesting thing that's kind of rolling around in my brain as I'm saying this is the fact that it all relates, right?
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:22.559
So our ability to share productive, psychologically safe feedback with our coworkers probably starts with how we experience feedback from our managers and what that experience is like and how our manager models said opportunity and feedback.
00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:24.720
So I think that they're all related.
00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:26.079
I think that they all matter.
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:29.680
I really, I think, I mean, I'm gonna throw my opinion out there.
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:46.880
I think that it would be harder to find an opportunity or an environment where coworker feedback is super psychologically safe and everything's great and people feel good, and that rebar is strong and that foundation is good, and the feedback between supervisor and team member is crap.
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:48.720
I I completely agree.
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.480
And I think that that speaks to a lot of the literature and psychological safety.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.640
It is frequently referred to as a team-based localized phenomenon.
00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:05.039
And of course, the supervisor is part of that team uh and seems to be the primary driver of it in a lot of the research, but it's not the only driver of it.
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:06.400
The team seems to matter.
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.480
And so, yeah, I think you're onto something.
00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:12.559
So, this of course begs the question: how does this matter in real veterinary life?
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:15.599
I mean, this is a veterinary study, so how does this show up in our life?
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:17.039
What can we do with this?
00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:19.519
Uh I think we can do a lot.
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:25.119
The first thing that I want to talk about is that leaders seem to formalize the emotional tone of a workplace.
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:28.720
Now, that doesn't mean that they are the only ones who do it.
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:35.759
It just means that leaders, to the point that we were just discussing, have an outsized influence over the emotional tone.
00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:42.720
Andy, because of our recent graduate program that you and I went through, we we are now familiar with some of these theories.
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:48.480
Uh, there's a theory in applied communication that you are aware of called the constitutive view of communication.
00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:50.960
That took me a long time to say that first word, by the way.
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:51.920
Constitutive.
00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:59.759
Uh as you know, Andy, it basically says that communication is the primary method for experiencing and making meaning of social realities, right?
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.359
In the workplace, those in charge have outsized power.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:15.039
So what they say and what they don't say, how messages are delivered, all those kinds of things go a long way to establishing the tone and feel of the workplace climate.
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:19.599
Now, Andy, you've worked in one or two veterinary settings in your day.
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:31.359
In your experience, when you think about real veterinary workplaces, what are some of the small, like everyday communicative behaviors from leaders in particular?
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:33.759
So from supervisors, managers, those in charge.
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:42.640
What are some of the small everyday communicative behaviors from those people that, in your opinion, most quickly shape the emotional tone of a team?
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:46.079
A good handful came to mind for me here.
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:54.640
And I think that it all starts with the attitude that we show up with, you know, because that that fuels, right?
00:22:54.720 --> 00:23:02.160
That fuels your tone, that fuels your nonverbals, that fuels the energy of the vibe you give off when you walk into the room.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:05.279
Are you stepping in with a bit of an open mind?
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:10.480
Are you stepping in with a bit of, you know, cranky baggage from something that happened earlier?
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:12.079
You can usually tell, right?
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:13.200
Your vibe is off.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:15.759
And I think that there's a lot to be said for that.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:18.000
Nonverbals are huge, right?
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:19.759
Do you make eye contact?
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:20.640
Do you acknowledge?
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:21.359
Do you nod?
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:22.079
Do you smile?
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:23.839
And then that moves into the greeting, right?
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:25.440
Do you say the person's name?
00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:29.039
Do you say good morning or hey, you know, how's it going, Josh?
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:30.160
I haven't seen you in a minute.
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:31.519
What's what's new with you?
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:36.000
That intentional effort to connect with the person.
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:41.599
But I also think that there's a lot of, because I'm thinking of like not so awesome, right?
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.759
And emotional tones that have come from leaders and what's kind of led to that.
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:51.920
And I think some of that can come from getting on the bandwagon of whatever the feel is in the room, right?
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:56.480
I know for me, sometimes I would go into meetings and there was a lot of complaining.
00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:00.079
And there was a lot of, well, this isn't happening and why is that not happening?
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.519
And I can't get this done and complaining, complaining, complaining.
00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:07.759
And if I jumped on that bandwagon, yeah, this is terrible.
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:09.359
Yeah, this sucks.
00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:11.440
Then there's there's the tone, right?
00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:13.200
There's the emotional tone for the meeting.
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:18.160
Where if I was able to go in with, okay, yeah, this sucks.
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:23.519
And what can we do to make it suck less and make that shift?
00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:24.720
It can be helpful.
00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:26.799
So acknowledging the suck, right?
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:33.519
But trying to move past it in a way that's productive and not just getting on the bandwagon and being like, yeah, give me that pitchfork.
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:34.319
Here we go.
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:36.240
Yeah, that all makes sense.
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:52.720
Um, I think it's, yeah, all the things that you're talking about here, the mindset and mentality that we're bringing into the conversation is going to show up in our nonverbals and our tone, and that's going to impact the emotional tone of the people around us uh when we're in a leadership position.
00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:55.200
How we greet, do we even greet?
00:24:55.440 --> 00:25:01.680
You know, Andy, you and I are currently teaching our certificate in cultivating positive team communication program.
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:09.039
And in in a recent lecture with the students, we talked about drive-by greetings and how often like drive-by greetings happen at work.
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:13.039
Hey, Andy, walking right by, not even making eye contact, right?
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:16.799
Or how drive-by greetings start, you know, happen at the beginning of a meeting.
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:18.559
Uh, hey, team, good to see you all.
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:20.000
Okay, let's dive in, right?
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:22.000
Like that's that's not really a greeting.
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:26.960
That's a like, we are here to do things, and that changes the emotional tone, all that.
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:32.799
Um, another takeaway for me here is that feedback is really more than correcting behavior.
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:35.279
Feedback is actually a relational tool.
00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:38.880
Like, that's really one of the, I think, the huge takeaways from this study.
00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:44.079
A technically accurate message of you've done something wrong and it needs to improve, right?
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:46.400
Can still do relational damage.
00:25:46.640 --> 00:26:01.920
Feedback delivered without empathy, without respect, clarity, lacking support, those kinds of things, like what you were talking about earlier from a manager or a coworker is likely to reduce the psychological safety within that team environment or at least within that relationship.
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:08.079
And when that psychological safety goes down, when it's reduced, the possibility for stumbles and mistakes go up.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:32.160
If we are not cultivating psychological safety with the way that we communicate, with that feedback loop and how we deliver it, we're actually creating patient safety issues, especially in busy veterinary practices, because we're making it unsafe to ask for help, to repair things, to uh admit and discuss mistakes, use them as learning opportunities.
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:39.359
So if we want teams that stick around and deliver exceptional patient care, we really need to invest in manager communication skills.
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:44.319
Imagine a lead technician who makes a dosing mistake that gets caught before harm occurs.
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:45.440
Okay, cool, good.
00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:47.119
We we we caught it.
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.119
It was a near miss, right?
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:53.039
So the manager says to this technician, you need to be more careful.
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:54.880
This can't happen again.
00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:57.119
Technically accurate statement, right?
00:26:57.200 --> 00:26:57.680
It is true.
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:00.000
She does need to be more careful.
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:01.759
This cannot happen again, right?
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:04.720
The next time it could actually cause harm if we don't catch it, right?
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:06.240
But it leaves shame.
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:09.839
It leaves distance, it leaves silence behind.
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:13.920
It doesn't create, to your point earlier, a conversation.
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:16.960
Now let's insert a completely different manager.
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:21.759
Or this manager working better, like communicating better.
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:22.640
Okay.
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:23.519
Same thing.
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:25.680
Dosing mistake, got caught early.
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:26.559
Wow.
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:28.160
I'm really glad that we caught that.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:31.759
Now let's slow down a bit here together.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:36.240
Walk me through what was happening before this error occurred.
00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:42.000
And then let's use that to like figure out together what we can do to make sure this kind of thing doesn't ever happen again.
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:45.920
Same issue, but very different cultural consequence.
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:51.440
Another thing here that I wanted to point out from the study is that leaders can shape the communication climate.
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:56.720
You said this earlier, Andy, by role modeling what good communication looks like.
00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:01.599
How leaders communicate is going to influence how the team communicates, right?
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:13.519
While this paper focused specifically on feedback quality, the truth is our teams are watching how we communicate when things are good and when things need correction or redirection.
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:46.480
Okay, so so those of you listening to this, you've looked over the paper.
00:28:46.639 --> 00:28:48.159
Maybe you're convinced now, right?
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:49.039
You've heard these things.
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:53.039
Now you're wondering, okay, cool, Josh, how do I put this stuff into action?
00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:58.319
Well, here are some ideas to help you renovate the communication culture in your practice.
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:00.960
The first one plays off of what I just said.
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:04.319
We need to train feedback as an essential leadership skill.
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:07.440
I might even call it an essential leadership competency.
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:18.079
The authors of this study concluded that organizations should assess managers' feedback skills and invest in training opportunities to strengthen those interpersonal competencies.
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:19.680
And I wholeheartedly agree.
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:21.279
And Andy, I think you do too.
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:22.240
Heck yeah.
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:24.639
I'll even take it a step further and I'll say this.
00:29:24.879 --> 00:29:40.639
I think that high quality communication from veterinary leaders should be considered as important a technical skill as things like inventory management, accounting, HR proficiencies, anything else that we put in the job description for our management team.
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:42.720
Oh, and this isn't just for managers.
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:58.319
Progressive veterinary practices and organizations are going to assess and train these communication skills for all roles, recognizing that psychological safety is a patient safety issue, and high quality communication across roles will improve it.
00:29:58.879 --> 00:30:05.519
Secondly, measure psychological safety as preventative medicine for your practice culture.
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:11.599
Based on this study, we could actually consider psychological safety as the lagging indicator of feedback quality.
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:18.720
We could call feedback quality the leading indicator here, but it might also be a leading indicator of turnover.
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:39.119
So routinely measuring psychological safety in our teams and throughout our organization, could actually be a way to improve patient safety and assess the effectiveness of our communication training program and alert us to the growing or hopefully decreasing risk of team members taking the off-ramp to another job.
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:43.359
The psychological safety index scan, which was uh developed in partnership between Dr.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:52.720
Amy Edmondson, I like to think of her as the Empress of Psychological Safety, and uh an organization in the UK, a consulting firm called Ceres Change.
00:30:53.039 --> 00:31:00.639
That PSI scan is a robust platform for measuring psychological safety in teams or at the organizational and enterprise level.
00:31:00.879 --> 00:31:07.119
And benchmarking scores against, I think now it's probably well over like 30,000 teams around the world.
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:14.159
Turns out that Flourish is actually trained and licensed to use that platform in veterinary teams practices and across entire organizations.
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:18.399
So if that's something that's of interest to our listeners, we can absolutely help with that.
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:20.879
But they could also just measure it themselves.
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:25.599
There are validated brief psychological safety surveys readily available online.
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:27.759
And we can even share them with our listeners.
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:34.000
In fact, if you want to just email us at Flourish, you can send the email to info at flourish.vet.
00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:40.639
Uh, we are happy to share one of those validated psychological safety surveys with you and help you get started.
00:31:40.879 --> 00:31:47.759
The next thing I wanted to address is making feedback quality a key element in managers' performance reviews.
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:55.839
And I mean, like really like actually measuring this and then making it a part of how managers' performance is assessed.
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:04.399
If we're going to consider this a leadership competency, then we should assess it and I don't know, deliver quality feedback to managers based on that assessment.
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:05.200
I mean, right, right?
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:06.720
It's the whole feedback loop.
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:10.639
This could be done, I think, by a mix of upward feedback from team members.
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:13.920
So we can actually like survey their team members.
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:21.759
You could do it confidentially, you could do it anonymously, but ask them, you know, to rate the quality of feedback that they are getting from that manager.
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:24.399
We could also do this by way of observed behavior.
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:31.599
We could make it a point to observe our managers delivering feedback and uh assess that subjectively.
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:47.279
And then we can also use outcome measures, you know, so we could have a survey item for every direct report and team member that that manager influences or impacts, and simply ask them to rate things like my manager makes me feel respected during difficult conversations, right?
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:48.960
Like those are ways that we can do that.
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:59.839
Okay, Andy, I've shared with you three renovation ideas here: training for quality feedback skills, measuring psychological safety, and then making feedback part of managers' performance reviews.
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:07.440
If a practice owner or a corporate executive came to you tomorrow and said, Andy, which one of those should I do first?
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:09.839
Which one would you recommend and why?
00:33:10.159 --> 00:33:15.759
The medical mind in my brain wants to do diagnostics, right?
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.000
I want a baseline.
00:33:18.159 --> 00:33:21.039
I want to know where we are before we even get started.
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:28.319
And so I think I would probably um recommend measuring psych safety within your team first.
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:37.440
Kind of see where you're at, see what's going well, see where things are really psychologically safe, see where maybe you need to spend a little bit of extra time and effort.
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:53.279
And then you'd be able to implement those other ideas in ways that might be a little bit more impactful, as opposed to just assuming that you're totally, totally not psychologically safe, or that there's an absolute lack of psychological safety, or that, oh no, no, everybody feels safe.
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:58.159
I definitely make people feel uh comfortable and relaxed in a difficult conversation.
00:33:58.319 --> 00:33:59.359
You're gonna know, right?
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:02.639
You're gonna know the reality of what's happening in your team.
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:08.720
And I think that is a really helpful place to start for a lot of organizations out there.
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:09.519
I love that.
00:34:09.680 --> 00:34:13.440
I love that because you know, we often talk about the importance of the feedback loop.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:20.800
And when we're saying that term feedback loop, we're saying feedback is not just about how we deliver it, but it's also how we receive it.
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:36.720
And what you're kind of suggesting is like if if a manager or hospital owner or corporate executive starts with establishing this diagnostic, with getting this baseline, that is a way for them to start practicing how they receive feedback because that's what that survey is.
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:43.360
It's feedback in large part about their leadership practices and the impact that those practices are having.
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:50.239
So it gives them this really golden opportunity to practice improving the feedback loop within their organization.
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:51.039
I love that.
00:34:51.279 --> 00:34:56.639
Well, and it shares too with the team that you as a leader are taking this seriously, right?
00:34:56.800 --> 00:34:58.480
That whole modeling the behavior.
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:00.559
This is a great way to do that.
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:01.679
This is important to me.
00:35:01.759 --> 00:35:05.920
It's important enough that I'm willing to create this assessment.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:07.840
I'm willing to have these conversations.
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:10.559
I'm willing to hear the feedback.
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:12.880
And I think that's an important place to start.
00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:14.000
I totally agree.
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:15.440
I think that's well stated.
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:18.320
Now, of course, we're talking a lot about communication stuff here.
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:24.559
So I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that Flourish has been working on these exact kinds of things for quite some time.
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:30.719
Uh, listeners, Andy and I both completed a graduate program in applied positive communications and conflict management.
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:40.079
And we've used that education and some other uh areas of study that we've done to create the first ever certificate in cultivating positive team communication.
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:41.759
I briefly mentioned it earlier.
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.800
We really believe that thriving teams don't happen by accident.
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:48.320
They're built through everyday communications and conversations.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:50.960
And this study just really confirms that for us.
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:57.279
So we'll we'll share a link in the in the show notes uh to that certificate program so you can see what it's all about.
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:07.440
Uh and uh maybe you can get registered for the next public cohort of it, or maybe your organization wants us to deliver it for your leaders, for your teams uh across the organization.
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:09.039
We can do that privately as well.
00:36:09.279 --> 00:36:16.719
Now, there's one person, we're talking about thriving here, thriving teams, and there's one person that I know unequivocally is already thriving.
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:19.599
Probably in his or her own special way.
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:24.239
Andy, I think maybe you have an idea of who I'm referring to here.
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:26.719
Vibing and thriving with Florida Man.
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:28.320
Love it.
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:30.880
Florida Man is always always thriving.
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:36.079
I don't know that it is in the traditional sense, but it's definitely in his own magic.
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:40.320
And this episode's Florida Man is no different.
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:48.880
Um, our headline comes from somewhere called Castleberry, which I actually don't know where that is, but it's somewhere in Florida.
00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:51.840
That's irrelevant because the headline is amazing.
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:58.719
Florida man leaving strip club runs himself over with his own truck.
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:01.279
How is that even possible?
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:05.199
Apparently, he ran over his own leg.
00:37:05.759 --> 00:37:15.599
There is a picture, which I will include in the show notes, of the man with the car door open and he's laying on the ground with the truck running him over.
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:16.159
What?
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:17.519
I've been in thriving.
00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:19.679
I been in thriving.
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:21.279
Way to go, Florida man.
00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:23.279
Um winning again.
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:24.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:26.400
Never, never disappoints.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:27.599
Never disappoints.
00:37:27.759 --> 00:37:28.639
Castleberry.
00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:31.199
What a great name for town or city or whatever.
00:37:31.279 --> 00:37:31.759
Castleberry.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:32.639
Castleberry.
00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:33.840
It sounds very noble.
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:36.639
Full of full of Lord Florida Man.
00:37:37.279 --> 00:37:38.400
Yeah, yeah, seriously.
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:39.599
Lord Florida Man.
00:37:39.759 --> 00:37:42.320
Oh, I would love to see Lord Florida Man's castle.
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:47.279
All right, that brings another episode of the Veterinary Culture Lab to a close.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:48.719
Thank you all for joining us again.
00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:50.159
Don't forget to subscribe.
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:51.199
Please rate us.
00:37:51.279 --> 00:37:52.159
It definitely helps.
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:56.559
And, you know, share this with a colleague or two if you think that they might be interested in this.
00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:58.719
Uh, other than that, we'll look forward to seeing you next time.
00:37:58.800 --> 00:37:59.679
Thanks, listeners.
00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:01.360
Bye, everybody.
00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:13.759
Thanks for hanging out with us in the Veterinary Culture Lab, covered by the science of workplace well-being, and brought to you by Flourish Veterinary Consulting.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:21.039
If today's episode sparked an idea, made you smile, or got you thinking, hey, I should totally try that.
00:38:21.279 --> 00:38:22.159
Let us know.
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:23.440
What do you think?
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:30.159
Be sure to subscribe, share, and remember a thriving veterinary culture is possible.
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:32.480
And you don't have to build it alone.
