Paul Millerd (02:17.021)
today I am talking with Lawrence Yeoh. He is probably my favorite fellow creator to read. He just put out a book called The Inner Compass, which I read in under a day, mostly because I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't sleep. But it was delightful. Thank you for writing it, Lawrence.
I was sort of laughing while reading it. It felt like something I would write, but I was able to just enjoy it so much more because I didn't have to, I could celebrate another person's writing. But it was very much you. was, yeah, I could feel so much of you coming through and really excited to explore.
How you thought about writing this book? I'm excited you are experimenting with self-publishing. And also just want to catch up, if people want to deeper dive into your story, they can go back to my first episode, which I'll link. People love that episode. I still get comments on it. I think you just have a very unique way of seeing the world, creativity, and ideas. So welcome again to the Pathless Path podcast.
Lawrence Yeo (03:39.17)
Woohoo! We get to do this internationally now. So thanks for waking up in the wee hours and doing this with me. And I was really excited to actually get your feedback because I sent you a digital version and you were like sending me a screenshot of it as you were reading the book and kind of getting your real time feedback. And I always appreciate your feedback and how you think about things. So I'm excited to dive in, man.
Paul Millerd (04:07.815)
Yeah, I think one thing I connected so much with is how you centered self-reflection. And I think this is probably one of the biggest themes of your writing is just the ability to reflect on what you're doing and then use that as input into changing direction in your life. I'd love to just hear.
how you think about this idea of self-reflection and how it's part of your life.
Lawrence Yeo (04:38.946)
So I think the way I approach self-reflection is pretty antithetical to the stereotype of what it is, which is your sitting and your solitary, and you're trying to remove yourself from the world so that you could essentially just bask in your own mind and stay there for as long as you can. I feel like the way to self-reflect is that you are.
constantly getting feedback from the world and you are testing your intuition with reality to kind of see if its reliability is intact. And the way in which you do that is, you know, I outlined this, of course, in the inner compass, but I feel like you have to really attain this balance where you're trying to understand who you are better through a more reflective lens of questioning the assumptions that you may have inherited.
The scripts you may have inherited, which I remember is a opening question you like to ask a lot of your guests and to understand, all right, what is going on underneath the hood of it? But and this could be done in your own kind of solo domain. But I feel like the way in which you actually learn the most about yourself is to take what you've reflected on in that singular domain and then be out in the world. And when I say out in the world, you could be.
course, physically out and amongst the people, but also sharing what you have reflected on with others as well. And with others, I do not mean this mass of people. could be at whatever scale you choose, but knowing that you are trying to connect with the mind of another through the things that you have reflected on is, feel like the hallmark of what it means to know yourself. And I think self-reflection has to run that entire gamut from self
to the world and you're constantly oscillating between the two and not just staying in one domain.
Paul Millerd (06:39.249)
Yeah. The reason I restarted this podcast was the last two years. I think I went to inward. I think it was for a good reason. I had a child and I basically just wanted to spend a lot of time with the family, but my creative work started to suffer a bit. And a lot of my creative work is very similar. It's sort of like writing about personal transformation. And I sort of use a lot of my work.
selfishly to figure out who the hell I am, what I'm trying to do in the world. And I noticed that conversations like this are just incredibly generative for me. think having the structure of a podcast to sort of gives it this kind of container where you are going to try out ideas. There is going to be a bit of back and forth. And it's a big reason why I restarted it is for self-reflection.
And also it does have these positive externalities. You've mostly been sort of like a solitary writer. You do other stuff like music for fun, but how have you thought about that, like being in the world? Is it mostly sort of like these hidden signals you're getting from emails and other one-off conversations? But yeah, how do you think about that?
Lawrence Yeo (08:00.152)
So a lot of the way I interact with the world when it comes to my professional work with creativity and so forth is done mostly behind the scenes and it's not very front facing. I was actually just talking to my brother the other day and I was like, you know, more think about it. I'm like networking all the time and it's not really as a means to get anywhere, but because I feel like interacting with people has that generative feeling.
That is hard to get when you are just diving into your own world and then trying to pull stuff out of it to put onto a canvas. Right. And I think have I gone on many podcasts and so forth? Not really, but have I talked to so many different creatives over the years just for the sake of talking and chatting, hopping on calls and so forth, texting, whatever. Yeah, I have. And I think that.
You know, it's funny because now that I'm kind of in this stage of getting this book out there, a lot of the podcasts and conversations I'm having are with people that I've talked with just off air, quote unquote. And it just feels like when we're in this medium though, there is an intentionality around it. And that's what resonates with what you're saying about why you restarted this podcast. It's like, technically you could have a lot of these conversations without having a podcast, but
There is this agency that comes with going on something together. We're going to discuss a particular topic and we know that that's what the container is. And that container is what makes it a creative act. As opposed to us just switching and sending texts back and forth. Right. So I think a lot of the interacting with the world does come essentially behind the scenes and that's where you're collecting so much information and, and stories really.
And a lot of time where you're outputting, where you're actually putting out, represents just a fraction of all those things that you have had interactions with or people that you had discussions with and so forth. And it kind of shows up silently in your work rather than this huge kind of pronouncement of sorts.
Paul Millerd (10:06.567)
Yeah, there's two quotes I really liked. One is creating is not a privilege reserved for the artistic few. It's a birthright that we all have access to and exercising it dissolves the boundary between you and the other. I think that really captures what a meaningful conversation is. And it doesn't have to produce in a podcast. I think I get this just from meeting people around the world. I think I'm in this co-living.
our co-working place in Thailand and I'm constantly meeting people from different countries and almost all of them have like left a job behind, which is just like so amazing for me. I get to like just ask all these questions. I was having conversations with people from Norway and China and Vietnam and South Korea this week. And there's also this guy who's retired here who's sort of like reinventing his path.
Lawrence Yeo (10:50.627)
Hello.
Paul Millerd (11:06.771)
And yeah, I'm feeling so alive and I think this ties to the second quote I wanted to call out, which is, so if you accept the premise that creativity is inherent to who we are, what would it take to actually feel that way? And man, this is such a good question. Like, we are surrounded by people who are using creativity as like,
I call it creative bypassing. They're using it as a means to something else, right? Money, status. And that is fundamentally opposed to what you're writing about here, right? And it does seem like for you, creativity is sort of the end state. It's like, am I showing up in a way where I feel creative? Does that resonate?
Lawrence Yeo (11:56.504)
Yeah, I feel that there is creativity as a form, as a generative form of self-expression and creativity as a way to make up for a deficiency in self-worth. And we often start in one path and then we could kind of start switching over to the other if we don't start checking ourselves. And I think it's not, it's not something that I'm completely impervious to. Sometimes I do get caught up in, all right, well,
Who's reading my stuff and is it getting out there and all these things. And I feel like though, in the end, what we really want to do is to do this for a long time. And I think what people, when people think about the long game and you know, like you described long game energy is that they feel like the only way to enable that is money and status.
that these are the only two sources of fuel that could keep you on the path. But what I argue is that actually the inner domain is just as important, if not more, because if you are making whatever you may describe as an adequate amount of money that allows you to stay on this path, but internally, you're just doing this because you feel like you have to now or to keep the keep the business going or to
So you continue seeing number go up and that is what is driving you. It's not going to be too long before you start thinking about what else there is. And did I just trap myself into another cage of sorts?
Paul Millerd (13:32.788)
Yeah, and I think for me, I have to make money because I have to feel the way I'm feeling when I am in that creative mode. Like, I spent 10 years not feeling that most of the time. And now I feel it and it's like, good God, I will figure out how to make money to keep this going. And I ought...
Lawrence Yeo (13:58.755)
Mm.
Paul Millerd (14:01.083)
You can see that in other people too. I think when we first connected, it was sort of like a relief. It was like, when I meet people like you, it's like, yes. Like he has this, he has this deep desire to connect with the world in a certain way. And I don't even know how you were making money at the beginning, but it was like, he's going to keep going. It's sort of like, once you have that.
inner connection, that inner knowing, you sort of very clearly see it in other people. And you can also very clearly see the disconnection in other people as you say. I do wonder though, like, you do argue creativity is for everyone. And I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Like, I do see people sort of like using creativity as a hack to like grow something else. are they...
being creative in their own way or like is like disconnection and avoidance like that pervasive?
Lawrence Yeo (15:10.094)
Well, I think creativity is found in many things where people wouldn't consider a quote unquote creative act. Right. Like I know a lot of people that are in finance or something like that, and they wouldn't say that they're creative people, but the way in which they talk about what they do and the way in which they go about their careers is filled with this sense of agency. And like, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else, but this. And I actually had an interesting conversation with someone.
Where they're saying that, yeah, does it, does it mean like, what does this mean if I'm, I'm like really interested in investing, for example, and the only way that I see that I'm doing well as an investor that I am kind of pursuing mastery in my field is that I am making more money. And does that go at odds with this notion of creativity being this kind of metric list form of success and
I thought about it because it was such a good question. And what I came up with was. If if there is a certain indicator of mastery that shows you that this is something that you feel directionally aligned with, right? Like it's not the money itself isn't necessarily what you're chasing, but it acts as an indicator to you that you are continuing. You're on the right path and.
You have a certain value system that honors that, right? Like, you know, it's not money for its own sake. There is something that it signifies that makes you want to keep going and, and exercise ingenuity in this field. I think that's the big thing. Whatever we do, there is a way where we could exercise our ingenuity, but the only way you would call it exercising your ingenuity is if we truly want to do it. There's something about that activity that is worthy for its own sake.
And I was even thinking about Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger, for example. I don't think the reason why they're so loved is because they made a ton of money. Like there's a lot of people that have made a ton of money and don't get the admiration and respect that they do. I feel like they do it because when people look at them, they're like, damn, these are two guys that did it with character and integrity, which I don't see in so many other people that have that much wealth and.
Paul Millerd (17:31.112)
Yeah.
Lawrence Yeo (17:36.834)
That kind of shows me these guys are on the pursuit of mastery. Yes, great investors, but there's something about the way they do it that makes them seem like masters of the craft.
Paul Millerd (17:46.932)
Well, and age is part of it too, right? I think this is one of the hard things that you can't actually shortcut, right? I can tell you I'm going to be writing books still when I'm 60, but I can't give you that signal until I'm actually 60. And this is basically like my whole bet is if I can just keep going, right? And so over a long enough period,
A lot of short-term success fades. For me, is sort of a signal, but it has rapidly diminishing returns, I think. For example, my first book did really well. I made a lot of money from that. That was the first time I made money from writing, really, in over five to six years of writing publicly. It was clearly a signal.
it like spiked and now it dropped dramatically, right? So I'm making like way less from writing this year than I did last year. That isn't a signal that I should stop writing or that something was a failure. Like I got enough signal that it was like, oh, there are people out here that will go out of their way to buy this and it's worth attempting more. Now at the same time,
the next several books I write may not make that much money. And so this is the tricky thing with creativity is like every creative act is sort of a bet because you are pushing the frontier of your own possibilities and what's possible in the world. And it doesn't mean it will work. I think if like everything you're doing is working, you're either some sort of genius or you're probably not taking enough risk.
Lawrence Yeo (19:45.164)
Yeah, so I have question for you. So let's say your first book, maybe what if it sold 10 % of what it did? Right. And maybe even then you consider a success. I remember you told me that there was a certain amount. Yeah, yeah. At like a fraction of what it is. Right. So, so if that if it just stayed, let's say that was the peak and then it kind of tapered off to what it's doing now or whatever. Would you still?
Paul Millerd (19:55.924)
I did declare it as success.
Lawrence Yeo (20:12.472)
feel like that was a strong enough signal that you're going to keep writing because a book may become successful in that regards for you to keep going on that path.
Paul Millerd (20:24.595)
So I think this is sort of what you're talking about in terms of aiming at the state, right? What would it take to actually feel that way, the creativity? That's your question, right? And so how I wrote my first book was I made money doing other stuff to fund the time and everything I was doing with work was designed around time freedom so I could do the things I actually wanted to do. When I finished the book, I was like, damn, that was so much fun. That was delightful.
I loved that. It was very clear to me that I wanted to do more. I think making even just selling like a thousand books, my goal was thousand books in a hundred days. And so that was success. And so it did far better than that in a hundred days. I think it sold like two or three thousand books. And to me that was like, whoa, people like books.
people like my writing, that was good enough. And so I probably would have written more books. I think what's changed now, and maybe even to the detriment where I'm like almost focusing too much on trying to make money from books now, is that I've made a lot of money from books. And it's really taken the pressure off in terms of me having to worry about making other money. Like it helped me build savings and investments such that I have a higher level of comfort now.
Lawrence Yeo (21:24.088)
you
Paul Millerd (21:53.356)
but I'm just so committed to like, I gotta try stuff. I gotta push the edges of what I'm doing. I think my second book was very much in the vein of the first book, maybe a little more experimental. Like I want to keep pushing that edge. And if I wrote 10 more books and a few of them didn't flop, I probably didn't take enough risks. Like I don't want to just write like pathless path for the soul.
Lawrence Yeo (22:06.862)
You
Lawrence Yeo (22:18.754)
Mmm.
Paul Millerd (22:22.611)
Pathless Path for the teenage soul, Pathless Path for retirees. That would probably work, right? But yeah, I'd love to hear, like how are you thinking about what does success look like for the inner compass? Did you already succeed?
Lawrence Yeo (22:27.724)
Chiang Mai.
Lawrence Yeo (22:38.638)
Dude, man, it is such a good question. And hearing you, you talk right now, it just raised a lot of light bulbs. Cause I think for me, this book is a risk. It's, it's a risk because the moment I started writing it, I was like, this is very different from probably 90 something percent of nonfiction books out on the market. Like I wasn't going to start this book off with some story about.
Paul Millerd (23:08.029)
Ben Franklin.
Lawrence Yeo (23:08.174)
Winston Churchill, like, and, and like how he exhibited bravery and he trusted himself. And, the next chapter was going to start with some, and not to knock on that style, but it's, it's not what I wanted to go for in this. Like this, to me, when I started it, I was like, it's going to really delve from my personal life, but it's not going to be a memoir. It's just going to take bits and pieces from what I've experienced personally.
And also talk about things that I haven't really talked about too much publicly when it came to like mental health struggles, physical health struggles. It just felt like this was the right vessel for that. It almost felt like I was holding off on sharing that for the right moment. You know, I've been writing online for five, six years now, and I haven't shared any of that stuff before. I haven't shared things about my depression on, on more to that or my, struggles with it in the past.
But I felt like, yeah, this was it. And I think the risk here is that not only made this format seem very unfamiliar to a lot of readers. It also was unfamiliar for me to write. And as a result, I think that I am more excited to put this thing out. There was a little bit of, you know, I'm a little scared that people that are used to reading myself read and be like, well, this is very different from.
how Lawrence has shared a lot of his work, online before, but at the same time, I feel like, Hey, this is another format. And I feel like the way I approached this came from a, like a couple of months long fit of inspiration. And what I created there probably can't be replicated again. Like if I were to try to write this now, I don't think it would come out in the way that it did. And I think that's a good signal that it came from an inspired place.
Paul Millerd (25:06.739)
Yeah, I think your readers are going to love it. I think the thing you pointed out is it's not like 90 % of books, but that would have been silly for you to do, right? It's very similar to your work, I think. I think what comes through, like the thing I was thinking about as I was reading it is, oh, this is true. This is a true story.
And when I talk about true story, it's something that it's at the most honest level of communication that you had access to as you're writing it. And you feel that as you're writing it, it's like, it is true in your sense, but in that way, your way of transmitting it, I think it becomes true for other people too. And people can connect with that in a deeper way. And that's always what I'm aiming for.
in my writing and it was just like yeah he did it he he pulled it off like it was great.
Lawrence Yeo (26:12.206)
yeah, I mean, your question about what I consider it a success. think the very fact that I'm putting it out there is I would consider it a success. And it, and this once again, goes back to my earlier discussion of what it means to be in the world. It's like, I can declare it as a success, just have written it, but that's still in the domain of the internal. Now, what I really want to do is to, I think when it comes to understanding myself,
And feeling like this book can carry further to connecting with others and creating whatever ripple effects it may like I have to go out there. I have to be out in the world, talk to people about it, get people's take on it. have conversations about it. Like these are very, very important because I consider this book to be an invitation for conversation. And the greatest compliment I got so far was a friend of mine read it. And then he said he
He gave it to his wife and then afterwards they both went on a walk, walk in the woods and they just talked about it. And I was like, the very fact that I was able to contribute to that conversation without being there with you guys, like that's a great indicator that this book resonated. So that's kind of my goal here. I want more of those kinds of things to happen. And I remember one of the conversations we had when you were, when you were putting out the pathless path, you said that.
You told yourself, I want to be ambitious and I want to sell more books. And it was this declaration. And I remember that resonated with me because that feels sometimes like you feel resistance to doing that. But when you have conviction, when you have conviction in what you've done, even if it's a risk, when you tell yourself, this is what it means for me to follow my own path.
Then ambition is a virtue. It's not something to discard. It's not something to feel like guilty over or anything like that. Because I think inherent in that ambition, there's also a sense of humility as well, because you're always interacting with others and you're not going to be an asshole about going about your work. Like you're going to do it with a sense of conviction and the way in which you do it. So yeah, it was inspiring to hear you say that.
Paul Millerd (28:36.295)
Yeah, think, yeah, it's definitely something I still battle with and I still really struggle asking for help. I think for me, it's really the, I grew up with this script of like, you need to be self-sufficient. I think a lot of Americans have this. And it's sort of like bad to want, want too much.
And I still really struggle with this. I feel like guilt asking for help, especially if know somebody has a big audience and I know there's upside for me. I think with creative work, it's a constant process of accepting the ego that comes with wanting to be seen. And what's helped?
me is just admitting to myself, I want to be loved. I want to be seen. I want to be understood. I want to be respected for doing creative work. And yeah, I still struggle with this. To be honest, I've sort of pulled away in an intentional way from the broader creator world because as my audience got bigger, I started attracting other people that saw me as somebody they could engage with.
in an instrumental way. And I had a couple of experiences that just left me feeling incredibly empty. And I still don't quite know how to engage because I think it was a lot easier when I had a smaller audience because it's sort of like when you're dating when you don't have any money, you can sort of trust the other person's into you for the right reasons. And...
Yeah, I don't have a good answer to it. How do you feel? I mean, you've sort of had a similar stance to me in terms of like, I'm just gonna let the work speak for itself. But how do you deal with that tension? Like, what do you feel when you're asking someone for help?
Lawrence Yeo (30:52.92)
Yeah, you know, I think this is one of those things where it looks like the work just speaks for itself, but behind the scenes, there's a lot happening. And I think the way in which I go about the behind the scenes stuff, a lot of what you said rings true to me too. to be like, Hey, can you share this? Or can I, can I, can you help me in this way? It's, I still feel a lot of resistance to that. I think when it comes to the work speaking for itself, what I like to do is just.
share that work with people like directly. So, Hey, this is something that I think you might be interested in. And, you know, there's no expectations here, but even then I feel like, can I get a little better at setting a particular ask? It's like, okay, I send it and like, Hey, if this resonated with you, can you share it? I still don't really do that. And I think.
This book process is also kind of testing me in that way. I think what's cool about a book though, is that there is, regardless of how easy it is now, and we'll probably talk about this when it comes to self publishing and the breaking down the illusion that it's so hard, even though it's democratized and so forth, there is still the cultural significance of a book. Like I remember when I just announced this, people were saying, congrats. And I was thinking like,
Congrats about what? Like you don't congratulate me when I write a 5,000 word blog post, but, like 10,000 word blog posts, but because I've written this book that is maybe just twice as long as that, I get a congratulations because it's a book. So, and, and what I realized is there is an openness and this embracing of like other, other fellow creators, fellow friends like you who are like, you, you wrote this, like, I want to help. so.
Paul Millerd (32:25.895)
Yeah.
Lawrence Yeo (32:47.02)
I do feel like there's a season where there is a certain season of your creative work based upon the vessel in which you're using where asks become much easier and almost almost like if you didn't ask that'd be kind of weird. Like I'm getting the sense that, dude, this is your first book. I would, I would love to help.
in a way where if I wrote a great blog post, there's not really like, Hey, like I would love to help get this thing out. mean, and thank you to people that have done that for me. And like, that's been absolutely huge, but it's, it hasn't been kind of unilateral and it's, there is not like this great push for that, that I've kind of recognized with this. So. Write more books because people are going to be down to help.
Paul Millerd (33:12.627)
Yeah.
Paul Millerd (33:35.804)
Yeah, well, and this was my push to you because I think, for one, I enjoy your writing. Two, you're in a very similar scene to me, and I think having other writers like you put stuff into the world I know is going to happen with a higher degree of care, and I just think that's good for the Commons. But the reason I was pushing you to write a book, I think I probably texted you every three months.
Lawrence, it's time. You gotta do a book. Is because...
Lawrence Yeo (34:06.51)
You did. Your name at this point is just book guy on my phone.
Paul Millerd (34:10.737)
Because I saw what happened to me. It's just a different container and artifact that people take more seriously. And I think attempting to write a book raises your own skill level in a way that's very fun if you enjoy writing. And so I've been reading about a lot about the form of a book. I'm putting out this like beautiful hardcover.
it this fall, basically because I think it matters and I care. a book is a way of, sort of have, Craig Maude writes about this, you sort of have a contract with a book. You purchase it and then you own it. Nobody can take that book from you once you own it, especially in physical form. And it has a beginning and an end. It's like an experience. And it's...
It's this finite object. There's no ask at the end of a good book. Though, like, the householdpreneurs are always trying to upsell their courses in books and whatsoever. Like, there's no ask at the end of your book. All you ask is, if you like this, continue the conversation with me. Send me an email.
Lawrence Yeo (35:29.774)
I don't even have an about the author at the end. I, I kind of intentionally didn't have that there.
Paul Millerd (35:33.701)
Yeah. Why?
Lawrence Yeo (35:39.128)
This is one of those things where I felt like...
The, just feel so strongly about people following what they're in a compass to tell, tell, take them to go. Like, and.
Paul Millerd (35:52.84)
love it. Yeah, this is great. Like a book is a container to make like a thousand of these tiny decisions to which I think just adds to it.
Lawrence Yeo (35:57.153)
Yeah.
Lawrence Yeo (36:04.972)
Yeah. And I mean, here's the thing is that a lot of me reading other people's books led me to write this book, you know, in little ways, like, you know, pathless path is very inspiring for me. There is this book called Don't Believe You Everything You Think by Joseph Nguyen that after I read that, I was like, okay, I want to try writing a short book. Like all these, all these things kind of find its way into the book, even if I'm not quoting people and so forth, like these things that you've picked up.
So in a sense, like a book is just, it's going to add to your collage of various ideas. And the more that you read these things, the more that you're to want to write one of your own. There's no one that write that wants to write a book who doesn't really read books. it's inherent in the medium is that you're a fan of it and that you see the value in it, which is why when you do it, it's like, Oh, this is a person that has put in the inordinate amount of effort to actualize that. And.
yeah, I mean, I felt like also if I, even if I didn't have an about the author, like if you like something a lot, like when I listen to good music, my first, my two questions are, right, what's the name of the song and who made it? And that's just for everything. Like I want to know who the person is, especially now with like AI and all that stuff. I'm very curious about when I read or enjoy something, I want to know the personality behind it because I want to follow their work.
Paul Millerd (37:35.411)
That's awesome. Yeah, and you can always, you could change it next week if you wanted because you self-published and you...
Lawrence Yeo (37:40.91)
That's true. Although I have to say when you add another page like that, sometimes you got to change the entire cover file because it increases by by one millimeter. So you got to, you got to think about this stuff at the same time. I've learned a lot throughout the process through this.
Paul Millerd (37:49.095)
Yeah, it's...
Paul Millerd (38:01.115)
Yeah, what I did in my second book is add a couple blank pages at the end such that I could like add stuff and change stuff in the future. But yeah, it does get pretty tricky. How did you find self-publishing? You sort of alluded to you found it easier than you expected.
Lawrence Yeo (38:07.15)
Mm.
Lawrence Yeo (38:23.188)
Yeah, I mean, I found it easier than I expected in the sense that all the tools were just readily available. Like my tool stack was vellum. I use a Mac, so I just use that. Their templates are great. And then I used Illustrator from, I even designed my own cover. So I just did that myself. I used
Illustrator for that and then yeah, just KDP. I used Ingram to print out the, you know, advanced copies and so forth. Like I'm basically doing what a publisher is doing just all on my own, sending out advanced copies, getting the word out there. And I'm doing it at a pretty small scale and like it's pretty inexpensive to do. So.
It felt like also for this book, when I started writing it, I knew the moment I started writing it, it was going to be self published because I was like, I'm not going to convert this into a proposal that I'm going to sell. I know that this is just going to be from point a to point Z. Like I wrote this thing in sequential order and all while knowing that it's going to be short, shorter books are harder sells. so with that, I'm like, I'll just remove that barrier. I'm just going to do this all myself.
the whole way through.
Paul Millerd (39:46.164)
I don't know if they're harder sells. I think like, yeah, I wouldn't talk about it as a 100 page book. It's a book. Like, it's longer than Tao Te Ching. Like, that book's doing fine.
Lawrence Yeo (40:02.862)
Yeah, yeah. But it's a different...
Paul Millerd (40:04.499)
Like there are short books, like Seth Godin wrote The Dip, that book's done really well, it's super short. Yeah, it worked as a book, it's perfect. And I sort of have a hunch that as more people continue to read and consume books digitally,
Lawrence Yeo (40:10.572)
Mm-hmm.
Paul Millerd (40:29.405)
people recommend what they finish. so finishing a book is going to become increasingly important. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if this book does better than you expect.
Lawrence Yeo (40:43.16)
Well, we'll see. And I really did write it so that you just, when you, you know, each chapter is very short and it makes you feel like you're just moving. You're, kind of quickly moving, but the tagline I kind of have in my own head here is that you could read it in a weekend, but revisit it for a lifetime. That's, that's what I want people to get out of it. It's like, you can read it quickly, but as you're reading it, you think, okay.
I want to this out later or highlight it and I want to revisit it. That's kind of how I wrote this thing. And the whole goal really is like, yeah, let's get, let's get the person to finish this thing. And at the end be like, all right. I want a little bit more. And I feel like short books are conducive to that feeling of I want more as opposed to. I wish this was shorter.
Paul Millerd (41:36.606)
Yeah, definitely. So how did this experience change how you're thinking about publishing, creating, sharing your work in the future? I think what I've seen with a lot of people who end up self-publishing a book, they do see, wow, that was easier than I thought. I now have 10 ideas for book-type projects. It moves you from the essay to book form. And this is why I...
I wish more authors would self-publish because I think they traditionally publish and it's like a big thing and they just can't whip up the energy to like do another one after they put one book out. So given you are pursuing other routes with your next book now, like how are you thinking about like the arc of a continued writing and creative career?
Lawrence Yeo (42:28.546)
I feel like you could treat books as a portfolio of anything, right? And in the same way that people that once wrote online are now doing YouTube and YouTubers are writing books, vice versa. Like you also could approach a book in different ways. So with the inner compass, I knew that I wanted it to be a more solitary endeavor. I.
There was just something about this book where it was just hit so close to home in terms of the topic that I wanted to just be with myself for this. And especially because I was talking about some very personal topics in there. I think when it comes to the following book, I was like, I want to do it with other people. And there is something about. The Avenue.
Or the intention that you want to do with other people kind of have your team around that. That you'll kind of know when it comes to certain topics, which feels more right. It really is intuition here. And I feel like if people pursue traditional publishing, like there is kind of what's your intention for that. Right. And I don't view it just in terms of like your advance or all that. It's more of like, why do you want to work with other people on this?
Paul Millerd (43:57.448)
Yeah.
Lawrence Yeo (43:58.142)
Because with self-publishing, it's different. I think it's one of those things where you can really just do it on your own. So what you're going to do is spend a lot of time just alone, most of your time alone, figuring out all the bells and whistles logistically and also the creative processes more so yourself. But if you know you want to do with others, then traditional publishing is a great route to pursue. Self-publishing, I think is...
Yeah. What's that topic? Like, for example, people that want to write a memoir, for example, like you do, you do not need to go through the process of finding a team to work with. If you know, this is just going to be you diving into your own life experiences. And if you just want to get that energy out, then just do self publishing. So I feel like a lot of time people just think about when it comes to writing a book, like, what do I know? Like, what's my expertise?
All right. What's my knowledge of a topic? And they choose it based on that. But the other part really is what do you feel inspired to do right now? And I think this crossroad, a lot of people miss. They just go off of the expertise one, but you really want the intersection of expertise and inspiration. And when I wrote this, I was like, I just need to go. I need to go right now. I need to do this right now. So if you have that feeling of you got to do it right now,
Paul Millerd (45:17.339)
I love it.
Lawrence Yeo (45:23.682)
I think self-publishing is a great, great option. You're just going to, you're not going to do a proposal. You're just going to go. But.
Paul Millerd (45:30.705)
Yeah, that's definitely what I felt with both my books. It's like, I have to write about this right now. The idea of ever writing a proposal would just be insane, because I just would rather write the book.
Lawrence Yeo (45:44.014)
See? like that's, and I think everyone has different preferences, like different creative processes. So I really, you know, there's kind of that, this debate of like self publishing or traditional publishing and all that stuff. And, you know, we have friends that have ventured into both as well. And I feel like it ultimately depends on what you want creatively, what you want creatively. And then also, right? Like
Is there some sort of financial baseline that you are looking for upfront as opposed to after you have written the whole thing? Like these considerations all depend on your life circumstances. So while you can explore what each of them, the pros and cons of each in the end, you just got to go with what you feel compelled to do right now. And don't let fear get in the way. think if you were to choose any of the options, don't make
fear the reason why you choose one or the other. If I, if I were to just give one piece of advice, it would be that I think a lot of people don't self publish because they're like, well, it's not going to, it's not going to go anywhere. I'm just, I'm just choosing myself. So there's no backing here. And as a result, why do it when in that quote, unquote, inevitably, it's not going to go anywhere. If that's the reason you're thinking about it, I say, just try it out. Just try it out. Test your theory.
And see what happens as like personally what happens to your own life just from the very fact that you have written this book.
Paul Millerd (47:20.871)
Yeah, to quote Lawrence Yeoh, when you see the fork for the first time, the well-paid path will scream for your attention because the whole situation is foreign. The mind will seek the option that seems most reliable, which is signaled through the affirmation of others. Boom, we nailed it.
Lawrence Yeo (47:42.2)
So can I expand on that analogy a little bit? All right, I got to read the book then to get the whole analogy. But.
Paul Millerd (47:46.191)
No, you had your shot, the book's over.
Paul Millerd (47:52.883)
You can expand.
Lawrence Yeo (47:56.502)
Okay. So this analogy I really thought about, cause I was like, yeah, why do we, why do we have this tendency to accept, you know, we could use your, your terminology cause I'm on your podcast, the default path here. And, you know, we could really view these two things as like the default path and the pathless path. Except I think when it comes to the pathless path, in this case, you have a sense that someone has kind of walked something similar, right? Which is why it's still a path.
But I feel like most metaphors of this kind is just about, right, which path do you take? But I wanted to add another wrinkle, which is like the repetition element. Right. What would you do if you came across this the first time for the 10th time and for the hundredth time? Cause the first time I think, yeah, people just choose the default path because everything is foreign. You're not thinking about, I want to exercise my curiosity. You're like, I just need to.
Get out, going with my life. The 10th time. The interesting thing is that like, why are even there 10 times? Right? Like if you're, if you're hiking somewhere and you go to the same thing, the same fork 10 times and you're deliberating, you're there because the other thing seems kind of intriguing. But it may not have been enough times for you to actually take the pathless path. You would just go take the default one, but your thoughts will start to change. You become more curious about the other path.
Paul Millerd (48:57.672)
Right.
Paul Millerd (49:03.635)
Right.
Lawrence Yeo (49:24.47)
Now, hundred times, this changes things because this would be the example of someone that continues going into a job that they absolutely detest day in and day out while each day thinking, I know there's something else. I know there's something, I know what that thing is, but I'm just not doing it. Then in that case, the question doesn't really become about the path that you're not choosing. It becomes more directed to yourself. Like, how come I can't do it? What's going on here? Come on.
So there's this interesting relationship just between the amount of times you show up to the divide and how, the frequency of that increases, your attachment or the weight you put on certainty also diminishes and curiosity starts to take the helm. And that's when it's really important to listen to. And eventually people take that pathless path, but a lot of times very late in life.
And that's why you hear about people doing it. You know, why is it when they hear they're going to die, they start ticking items off the bucket list. Cause they've hit that for thousands of times and they didn't do it. So.
Paul Millerd (50:37.139)
Yeah, I love this. think this is something I talk about a lot too. people look at my path and say, oh, he quit his job. But the reality is I changed jobs, counting internships. I was in nine different internships and 14 or nine different jobs, counting internships. Uh, I did two years for grad school. And so I was changing things up every like 12 to 24 months.
And it was pretty intense every time. And every time I think that curiosity just became more and more. And choosing to do my own thing didn't actually feel that crazy when I did it. What felt crazy was how the world treated me and how I felt shifting into self-employment. I actually thought it would be smoother than I experienced because I had made so many changes.
But yeah, but early in my career, like people were always criticizing me for, you're changing jobs too much. You got to stay longer. And I just sort of had this hunch. Like I just need to keep shaking things up. I just keep needing to try things. So I think that's spot on. And fast forward, like a big publisher offers me a, purchase my book and pursue the fame and attention game.
And it was very easy to walk away at that point. I just had so many reps of stepping into the unknown and following my curiosity. And it was more exciting to turn it down. It wasn't that I was making a strategic decision. was just like I was just more naturally leaning into myself by moving away from that decision.
Lawrence Yeo (52:31.87)
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Paul Millerd (52:33.447)
So what's the next book for you?
Lawrence Yeo (52:37.198)
So the next book will
Paul Millerd (52:40.029)
Can you share information about it and how you decided to go with them?
Lawrence Yeo (52:46.318)
Well, I don't really want to share the news of like where I kind of ended up with right now. Um, but I could talk about just like what it's going to be about. Um, the, book itself will be about money. So yeah. And I think that in the end, you know, you, you, I kind of laugh when you texted me, you were like, yeah, money is the final frontier of inner work. And, and it is, it's like.
Paul Millerd (53:00.136)
Nice.
Lawrence Yeo (53:14.306)
the the thing where we developing the the relationship you want with it is extremely difficult. And if anything, that would probably the biggest pushback to questions of following your inner compass and your intuition. And how is that going to lead to a life in which you can function in the world through money? Right. I mean,
My theory is that you can align those two. You can, but it's not just the function of earning more and more. There is a lot of it, which is having a very close look at how you view it and how it's so baked into your sense of identity. So that's kind of what I'm thinking about for the next one. you know, when you were talking about
your last book and how there was an offer that came in to get that. feel like in your case, like, because you already wrote the book, right? You already wrote the book. You didn't do it with an editor and so forth, right? So I think that's a different position too, right? And as opposed to if you're entering into it, knowing that you're going to be working with a publisher that makes it more collaborative.
Paul Millerd (54:18.107)
Right. Yeah. Very different.
Paul Millerd (54:37.427)
Yeah, mean, publishing houses are not set up to purchase already published books. They had no ideas for me. The price was too low. Their idea was we're gonna send e-books to bloggers. That's what they told me. I said, what's your most creative idea you wanna do with this? Why do you wanna work with it? They're like, all right, we're gonna take it out of print. We're gonna put a new cover on it. We're gonna clean up the editing and then...
Lawrence Yeo (54:43.022)
you
Paul Millerd (55:05.181)
we're going to send the ebook to bloggers and I'm like, what? and so it was also just like, I'd miss out on earnings. was making, I was selling an insane amount. was sold like 5,000 the month they tried to buy the book. So their idea was to take it out of print and like, I have a background in business. That's just a bad business decision. What are we doing?
Lawrence Yeo (55:08.28)
Mm.
Lawrence Yeo (55:35.134)
I mean, your circumstance was very different. I think, I don't feel like a lot of people in that position where publishers are offering to buy their books are, are doing that. I mean, cause yours kind of picked up more in the second year, right? So it like, I think the trajectory of your book was somewhat anomalous. Yeah.
Paul Millerd (55:35.639)
Paul Millerd (55:39.025)
Yeah.
Paul Millerd (55:51.345)
Yeah, right.
Paul Millerd (55:57.33)
Yeah, definitely. And yeah, I still think like there's probably a creative publisher that I'd be really excited to work with. I'd love to do a print only deal. I think there is a market of people I haven't been able to reach. It'll be interesting. My book is being launched by a big publisher in Taiwan in traditional Chinese in two weeks. And they are doing like big media stuff and launching it in the book.
Lawrence Yeo (56:18.562)
Mm-hmm.
Paul Millerd (56:24.637)
the main bookstores and it's going to be in Hong Kong and other Chinese speaking countries. So it'd be really interesting what the arc of it is. And that may feed back to other people willing to take a chance. But I think for the most part, US publishers are like only do one kind of deal and they can't get more creative. But I think that's going to change because more people are going to self publish and traditional publishers are just going to be forced to.
Lawrence Yeo (56:38.307)
Yeah.
Paul Millerd (56:54.188)
be more creative and flexible if they want to work with the best writers.
Lawrence Yeo (56:58.552)
Well, you mentioned Craig Maude, right? And he kind of has this interesting situation. Yeah. So like the Trudycom Publisher.
Paul Millerd (57:01.521)
Yeah, he's doing this too. He's maintaining rights to his hundred dollar book and then sending the regular book through Penguin. But he negotiated directly with the president of Penguin, which maybe I should email him.
Lawrence Yeo (57:10.958)
Yeah.
Lawrence Yeo (57:16.812)
Right.
Lawrence Yeo (57:24.384)
Yeah.
Paul Millerd (57:26.841)
Yeah, when you're dealing with lower levels, they just don't have the autonomy to make those decisions.
Lawrence Yeo (57:32.258)
Well, I think even for him, was, he was doing something where, there was a dynamic where they were concerned that the fine art edition was going to cannibalize sales from the wider edition. So there was like, let's put a cap on how much you need or you need to sell this amount for the, the traditionally published edition before you put out more of the fine art one and so forth. was.
like this kind of interesting back and forth and compromise of sorts, but all this to say that I do think there are this kind of they're more adaptive agreements or so forth that are occurring as self publishing becomes more and more prevalent. And also there's an understanding that everyone talks to each other. Like this is because I think it's no longer a situation where you have to
be a journalist and then work your way up and then like you get a book deal or something. It's like these pockets of the internet where we all kind of know each other and everyone is exploring different ways of doing things and things of that nature. So there's the knowledge of that. And I think the knowledge of that is also creating interesting situations where there's more adaptations involved.
Paul Millerd (58:29.287)
Right.
Paul Millerd (58:48.007)
Definitely. What, yeah, how many people do you send pre or early copies to? I'm just curious about some of the launch approach.
Lawrence Yeo (59:00.866)
Yeah. So I sent Paul about like 50 something out so far. So some that are international, like, like yours and some that are domestic. And I sent out more digital versions as well. So I really thought about how I, how I could get the engine going, but really thinking about.
Paul Millerd (59:06.93)
Nice.
Lawrence Yeo (59:31.106)
the people that I know already love my work. like these are the people, yeah, these are the people that was, that will share the book the most. And, and, and fortunately the way more to that is set up is that like, have run many cohorts of my storytelling course. And, you know, these are people that have paid a thousand dollars or more to be a part of the program. So they're very, very invested in my work. So.
Paul Millerd (59:35.271)
Yeah, that's so key.
Lawrence Yeo (01:00:00.776)
I'm actually helping to, I want to leverage that support. So I've also sent many of them like a digital copy and say, Hey, you know, if you, if you want to read it beforehand, and then when the book comes out, you could actually buy the book and then leave a review. and I think this is also important because like Amazon, they weigh verified purchase reviews more than just like, if you read the book as an advanced copy and you left the review.
So like these little intricacies matter. and then also I've. Yeah. Like I've just, I'm also doing something kind of different here where I don't have a pre-order campaign. There's no pre-orders. what I'm optimizing for is driving everyone on, on day one to the Amazon page and basically seeing, you know, like, I don't know how it will turn out, but.
Instead of this kind of trickle pre-orders thing, and also people can't order the physical version, for pre-orders. I have a feeling that people will want the physical version of this book because it's illustrated. So as a result, I wanted that to be available the moment they could buy the book. so instead of doing a pre-order campaign, I'm doing this, pop-up community where basically people that have joined the wait list, I think it's almost like a thousand people now.
Paul Millerd (01:01:04.552)
Yeah.
Paul Millerd (01:01:18.098)
Nice.
Lawrence Yeo (01:01:29.292)
will be, I'll get an invite to a community and it's a pop-up community. So in just two weeks, they'll close, but I want to host like readings for the book. So I'm trying to create like this nice little intimate atmosphere where people feel, like they kind of know the book before the book is out and kind of have this sense of investment into it. So.
Paul Millerd (01:01:41.973)
yeah.
Lawrence Yeo (01:01:59.756)
I think one of the things that I've realized about kind of the way I've built more to that is that I've really built it around people's support for the work. I could, and I really want to hone in on that when it comes to going deep. And when it comes to going wide, you know, it's all like the behind the scenes, sending people copies and stuff like that. So there's a combination of both things that I'm doing here.
Paul Millerd (01:02:30.343)
Yeah, I love that. think valuing those readers is so important. It's often those people who will buy your book for 10 people or keep talking about it for years. And I think people undervalue those sort of offline nodes of sharing and index way too much on big voices. The reality with people with big audiences is their recommendation isn't going to resonate that much unless they actually share it as
in a meaningful way. Like I think the reason like Ali Abdel is sharing my book did so well in terms of actual sales is he actually quit his job and had to let go of prestige and he had read my writing for years. And so he was able to connect with the work in a way that felt genuine to people. Granted like if you can get somebody with like
Lawrence Yeo (01:03:12.547)
Mm-hmm.
Lawrence Yeo (01:03:24.29)
Yeah.
Paul Millerd (01:03:28.805)
If you can get Mr. Beast to share your book, like that's probably going to sell a lot of books regardless if he's read it. But, yeah, I love that. think, you're going about it the right way. And also your hunch is right. Like pre-sales don't matter really for, self published books. my lowest weeks of sales for the path this path where the first four weeks and
Lawrence Yeo (01:03:36.919)
Right, right.
Lawrence Yeo (01:03:57.038)
Mm-hmm.
Paul Millerd (01:03:58.0)
It's fine. Like a book can take off at any time. The only reason traditional publishers care about presales is because they want to send a signal to bookstores to keep stocking it. That is why people are obsessed with presales.
Lawrence Yeo (01:04:07.31)
Right, right. Yeah, it's a different customer base than that. Mm hmm. Yeah. And then I'm also not trying to hit a list because it's self published. It's you know, it's not going to hit a list even if it sells 10,000 copies in the first week. Maybe that has changed though. I don't know, but I'm not really aiming for that.
Paul Millerd (01:04:26.641)
No, it's a bigger game than ever. There's all sorts of shenanigans that go in the back. People often try to get, people either fund strategic bulk purchases by these anonymous buying services or they get companies to do bulk, but it's, Yeah, you're not wired like that. Not worth it.
Lawrence Yeo (01:04:33.367)
Okay.
Lawrence Yeo (01:04:50.958)
Yeah, needless to say, I'm not, I'm not pursuing those options. it just doesn't, doesn't make sense. And nor would I even feel very great that like it would, it would hit a list in that way. I.
Paul Millerd (01:04:54.675)
Paul Millerd (01:05:04.059)
I honestly think it's like a counter signal if you're hitting it for like a week. Like James Clear being on the list for five straight years, that is a very impressive signal. But like if you're just like popping on it for one week because you did some shenanigans and then you're off, like I don't know.
Lawrence Yeo (01:05:25.656)
Well, it's a different, it's a different game. And I think like, when it comes to this one, you know, I'm doing, I'm, I'm doing what I can to spread the word about it. And I'm doing it in a way where I also just want to have fun and that I have the privilege of doing it where I've already been writing for six years. Right. So there's people that I know care.
Paul Millerd (01:05:27.443)
different game
Lawrence Yeo (01:05:55.67)
you know, and
Paul Millerd (01:05:56.084)
Well, like Joseph Wynn's book, it got republished by Authors Equity, right? And it made the list. But I think in that case, it was because people loved that book, right? And everyone wanted to support him. So there's nothing stopping that. I think too many people to see, like a book is really like something you're going to be talking about for 10 years. And so you really got to write what you care about.
Lawrence Yeo (01:06:01.78)
Yeah.
Lawrence Yeo (01:06:09.474)
Yeah.
Right, right.
Lawrence Yeo (01:06:24.992)
Right, right. And, and like you said, it matters the way people talk about your book, right? It's not just like, take a picture of it. And this I'm excited to dive in, you know, like the, thing that will actually sell books is like someone telling you, Hey, have you read, have you read this book? It really was fantastic. There it is, man. It's so crazy. It's so crazy to see that.
Paul Millerd (01:06:46.675)
The, the, the inner compass. Um, I'm getting a physical book. I'm going to take a really beautiful shot, um, with the book and share it. I'm really excited for you. I am pumped. have another person I can talk about seeing every ideas book-shaped form. Um, yeah. And excited to see how it does and looking forward to your next book as well. I'm sort of writing a book about money right now.
Lawrence Yeo (01:06:51.214)
Yeah.
Paul Millerd (01:07:15.973)
It may just be personal therapy, but yeah, I think that topic deserves a lot more views. So excited about that as well.
Lawrence Yeo (01:07:18.35)
Hmm.
Lawrence Yeo (01:07:27.022)
So I wanted to ask you a last question here, because I'm just curious, like, if you were to recommend this book to your friend or someone you meet, like, what would you tell them that you enjoyed about it the most?
Paul Millerd (01:07:41.201)
I would say, hey, if you're...
I think for somebody, especially at the start of a creative journey, this is just sort of a really helpful book that helps you think about the inner game of living a creative life. And from somebody, I think, who's doing it in a very sort of like principled way.
Lawrence Yeo (01:08:13.26)
Hmm. Hmm.
Paul Millerd (01:08:14.803)
Yeah, because it's actually very hard to recommend stuff. I don't have a lot. I already added you to my path list book recommendations. I have a, I have a list of books and, Laura LeCunf's book, Tiny Experiments. really liked that book. I think it's a really good companion for a lot of the stuff I'm talking about, but trying to make a living around creative work. I don't think there are tons of great books around that.
There are a lot of books around the business of selling creative works and the business of making money as a creator. But I don't think there are a lot of books around the inner journey of these kind of paths because it's very weird. And to do it in a principled way often looks like failure to others.
Lawrence Yeo (01:09:12.034)
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, that's interesting that you really kind of took the creative part of the book and, hone the focus there. I, I'll, I'll be curious to see like where, what angles people resonate with. Cause there's kind of different angles. I think I take to the question of self understanding.
Paul Millerd (01:09:32.146)
Yeah, I think I also resonated a lot with the health struggles. think, I think there's a deep connection between the acceptance of such things. Like I've dealt with chronic health issues for 13 years now, and I resonated so deeply with just your, like, the tension of wanting to resolve that, that grasping. And I think there actually is a deep connection.
with that and a creative life, creative path. Because for me, as I recovered from the most intense stretch over two years of the health crisis, there was a letting go process, right? The part that let me recover was a letting go of needing to be back to my healthy self. I've never really recovered in that sense. But letting go of that, just being open to
You know, I might face a month-long stretch of fatigue and just not feeling right. Or, I mean, I still, I mean, I was thinking about this as I was reading the book. I wasn't sleeping in the middle of the night. And some of my sleep challenges are still downstream of these health challenges. But it's, I don't stress about not sleeping. Like if I'm tired, so what? I often just read books.
And so not grasping, not needing things to be a certain way, not needing outcomes, it's all directly translatable to creativity. And I think it's why so many people that go through health crises often transform their lives or head in more interesting directions after, because there has to be this way of showing up differently in the world. So yeah, that was sort of the connection I made as well.
Lawrence Yeo (01:11:27.17)
Hmm. Yeah. Thanks for sharing, man. yeah, I think when it comes to health issues, there is a huge component of also you recognizing that when you're going through that issue, you have, you still could experience hits of contentment and, being aware of that, like cataloging that, I just laughed and, and like, I thought I didn't think I would be able to do that when this thing first came and
As a result, that also deepens the trust in your ability to navigate it. So yeah, thanks for sharing.
Paul Millerd (01:12:02.873)
Awesome. Check out the book. This will be going up pretty quickly. I don't have a team, just me and AI tools. And yeah, where can people find out about this? Just more to that.com.
Lawrence Yeo (01:12:11.394)
haha
Lawrence Yeo (01:12:17.336)
Yeah, more to that.com is where my digital home is there. did create a site for the book. Just compass dot more to that.com and all the information about the book could be there. It's a short page, just like the book itself.
Paul Millerd (01:12:32.861)
Beautiful. Thank you so much and excited to see how your journey continues to evolve.
Lawrence Yeo (01:12:40.77)
Same for you, as always. Thank you.
today I am talking with Lawrence Yeoh. He is probably my favorite fellow creator to read. He just put out a book called The Inner Compass, which I read in under a day, mostly because I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't sleep. But it was delightful. Thank you for writing it, Lawrence.
I was sort of laughing while reading it. It felt like something I would write, but I was able to just enjoy it so much more because I didn't have to, I could celebrate another person's writing. But it was very much you. was, yeah, I could feel so much of you coming through and really excited to explore.
How you thought about writing this book? I'm excited you are experimenting with self-publishing. And also just want to catch up, if people want to deeper dive into your story, they can go back to my first episode, which I'll link. People love that episode. I still get comments on it. I think you just have a very unique way of seeing the world, creativity, and ideas. So welcome again to the Pathless Path podcast.
Lawrence Yeo (03:39.17)
Woohoo! We get to do this internationally now. So thanks for waking up in the wee hours and doing this with me. And I was really excited to actually get your feedback because I sent you a digital version and you were like sending me a screenshot of it as you were reading the book and kind of getting your real time feedback. And I always appreciate your feedback and how you think about things. So I'm excited to dive in, man.
Paul Millerd (04:07.815)
Yeah, I think one thing I connected so much with is how you centered self-reflection. And I think this is probably one of the biggest themes of your writing is just the ability to reflect on what you're doing and then use that as input into changing direction in your life. I'd love to just hear.
how you think about this idea of self-reflection and how it's part of your life.
Lawrence Yeo (04:38.946)
So I think the way I approach self-reflection is pretty antithetical to the stereotype of what it is, which is your sitting and your solitary, and you're trying to remove yourself from the world so that you could essentially just bask in your own mind and stay there for as long as you can. I feel like the way to self-reflect is that you are.
constantly getting feedback from the world and you are testing your intuition with reality to kind of see if its reliability is intact. And the way in which you do that is, you know, I outlined this, of course, in the inner compass, but I feel like you have to really attain this balance where you're trying to understand who you are better through a more reflective lens of questioning the assumptions that you may have inherited.
The scripts you may have inherited, which I remember is a opening question you like to ask a lot of your guests and to understand, all right, what is going on underneath the hood of it? But and this could be done in your own kind of solo domain. But I feel like the way in which you actually learn the most about yourself is to take what you've reflected on in that singular domain and then be out in the world. And when I say out in the world, you could be.
course, physically out and amongst the people, but also sharing what you have reflected on with others as well. And with others, I do not mean this mass of people. could be at whatever scale you choose, but knowing that you are trying to connect with the mind of another through the things that you have reflected on is, feel like the hallmark of what it means to know yourself. And I think self-reflection has to run that entire gamut from self
to the world and you're constantly oscillating between the two and not just staying in one domain.
Paul Millerd (06:39.249)
Yeah. The reason I restarted this podcast was the last two years. I think I went to inward. I think it was for a good reason. I had a child and I basically just wanted to spend a lot of time with the family, but my creative work started to suffer a bit. And a lot of my creative work is very similar. It's sort of like writing about personal transformation. And I sort of use a lot of my work.
selfishly to figure out who the hell I am, what I'm trying to do in the world. And I noticed that conversations like this are just incredibly generative for me. think having the structure of a podcast to sort of gives it this kind of container where you are going to try out ideas. There is going to be a bit of back and forth. And it's a big reason why I restarted it is for self-reflection.
And also it does have these positive externalities. You've mostly been sort of like a solitary writer. You do other stuff like music for fun, but how have you thought about that, like being in the world? Is it mostly sort of like these hidden signals you're getting from emails and other one-off conversations? But yeah, how do you think about that?
Lawrence Yeo (08:00.152)
So a lot of the way I interact with the world when it comes to my professional work with creativity and so forth is done mostly behind the scenes and it's not very front facing. I was actually just talking to my brother the other day and I was like, you know, more think about it. I'm like networking all the time and it's not really as a means to get anywhere, but because I feel like interacting with people has that generative feeling.
That is hard to get when you are just diving into your own world and then trying to pull stuff out of it to put onto a canvas. Right. And I think have I gone on many podcasts and so forth? Not really, but have I talked to so many different creatives over the years just for the sake of talking and chatting, hopping on calls and so forth, texting, whatever. Yeah, I have. And I think that.
You know, it's funny because now that I'm kind of in this stage of getting this book out there, a lot of the podcasts and conversations I'm having are with people that I've talked with just off air, quote unquote. And it just feels like when we're in this medium though, there is an intentionality around it. And that's what resonates with what you're saying about why you restarted this podcast. It's like, technically you could have a lot of these conversations without having a podcast, but
There is this agency that comes with going on something together. We're going to discuss a particular topic and we know that that's what the container is. And that container is what makes it a creative act. As opposed to us just switching and sending texts back and forth. Right. So I think a lot of the interacting with the world does come essentially behind the scenes and that's where you're collecting so much information and, and stories really.
And a lot of time where you're outputting, where you're actually putting out, represents just a fraction of all those things that you have had interactions with or people that you had discussions with and so forth. And it kind of shows up silently in your work rather than this huge kind of pronouncement of sorts.
Paul Millerd (10:06.567)
Yeah, there's two quotes I really liked. One is creating is not a privilege reserved for the artistic few. It's a birthright that we all have access to and exercising it dissolves the boundary between you and the other. I think that really captures what a meaningful conversation is. And it doesn't have to produce in a podcast. I think I get this just from meeting people around the world. I think I'm in this co-living.
our co-working place in Thailand and I'm constantly meeting people from different countries and almost all of them have like left a job behind, which is just like so amazing for me. I get to like just ask all these questions. I was having conversations with people from Norway and China and Vietnam and South Korea this week. And there's also this guy who's retired here who's sort of like reinventing his path.
Lawrence Yeo (10:50.627)
Hello.
Paul Millerd (11:06.771)
And yeah, I'm feeling so alive and I think this ties to the second quote I wanted to call out, which is, so if you accept the premise that creativity is inherent to who we are, what would it take to actually feel that way? And man, this is such a good question. Like, we are surrounded by people who are using creativity as like,
I call it creative bypassing. They're using it as a means to something else, right? Money, status. And that is fundamentally opposed to what you're writing about here, right? And it does seem like for you, creativity is sort of the end state. It's like, am I showing up in a way where I feel creative? Does that resonate?
Lawrence Yeo (11:56.504)
Yeah, I feel that there is creativity as a form, as a generative form of self-expression and creativity as a way to make up for a deficiency in self-worth. And we often start in one path and then we could kind of start switching over to the other if we don't start checking ourselves. And I think it's not, it's not something that I'm completely impervious to. Sometimes I do get caught up in, all right, well,
Who's reading my stuff and is it getting out there and all these things. And I feel like though, in the end, what we really want to do is to do this for a long time. And I think what people, when people think about the long game and you know, like you described long game energy is that they feel like the only way to enable that is money and status.
that these are the only two sources of fuel that could keep you on the path. But what I argue is that actually the inner domain is just as important, if not more, because if you are making whatever you may describe as an adequate amount of money that allows you to stay on this path, but internally, you're just doing this because you feel like you have to now or to keep the keep the business going or to
So you continue seeing number go up and that is what is driving you. It's not going to be too long before you start thinking about what else there is. And did I just trap myself into another cage of sorts?
Paul Millerd (13:32.788)
Yeah, and I think for me, I have to make money because I have to feel the way I'm feeling when I am in that creative mode. Like, I spent 10 years not feeling that most of the time. And now I feel it and it's like, good God, I will figure out how to make money to keep this going. And I ought...
Lawrence Yeo (13:58.755)
Mm.
Paul Millerd (14:01.083)
You can see that in other people too. I think when we first connected, it was sort of like a relief. It was like, when I meet people like you, it's like, yes. Like he has this, he has this deep desire to connect with the world in a certain way. And I don't even know how you were making money at the beginning, but it was like, he's going to keep going. It's sort of like, once you have that.
inner connection, that inner knowing, you sort of very clearly see it in other people. And you can also very clearly see the disconnection in other people as you say. I do wonder though, like, you do argue creativity is for everyone. And I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Like, I do see people sort of like using creativity as a hack to like grow something else. are they...
being creative in their own way or like is like disconnection and avoidance like that pervasive?
Lawrence Yeo (15:10.094)
Well, I think creativity is found in many things where people wouldn't consider a quote unquote creative act. Right. Like I know a lot of people that are in finance or something like that, and they wouldn't say that they're creative people, but the way in which they talk about what they do and the way in which they go about their careers is filled with this sense of agency. And like, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else, but this. And I actually had an interesting conversation with someone.
Where they're saying that, yeah, does it, does it mean like, what does this mean if I'm, I'm like really interested in investing, for example, and the only way that I see that I'm doing well as an investor that I am kind of pursuing mastery in my field is that I am making more money. And does that go at odds with this notion of creativity being this kind of metric list form of success and
I thought about it because it was such a good question. And what I came up with was. If if there is a certain indicator of mastery that shows you that this is something that you feel directionally aligned with, right? Like it's not the money itself isn't necessarily what you're chasing, but it acts as an indicator to you that you are continuing. You're on the right path and.
You have a certain value system that honors that, right? Like, you know, it's not money for its own sake. There is something that it signifies that makes you want to keep going and, and exercise ingenuity in this field. I think that's the big thing. Whatever we do, there is a way where we could exercise our ingenuity, but the only way you would call it exercising your ingenuity is if we truly want to do it. There's something about that activity that is worthy for its own sake.
And I was even thinking about Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger, for example. I don't think the reason why they're so loved is because they made a ton of money. Like there's a lot of people that have made a ton of money and don't get the admiration and respect that they do. I feel like they do it because when people look at them, they're like, damn, these are two guys that did it with character and integrity, which I don't see in so many other people that have that much wealth and.
Paul Millerd (17:31.112)
Yeah.
Lawrence Yeo (17:36.834)
That kind of shows me these guys are on the pursuit of mastery. Yes, great investors, but there's something about the way they do it that makes them seem like masters of the craft.
Paul Millerd (17:46.932)
Well, and age is part of it too, right? I think this is one of the hard things that you can't actually shortcut, right? I can tell you I'm going to be writing books still when I'm 60, but I can't give you that signal until I'm actually 60. And this is basically like my whole bet is if I can just keep going, right? And so over a long enough period,
A lot of short-term success fades. For me, is sort of a signal, but it has rapidly diminishing returns, I think. For example, my first book did really well. I made a lot of money from that. That was the first time I made money from writing, really, in over five to six years of writing publicly. It was clearly a signal.
it like spiked and now it dropped dramatically, right? So I'm making like way less from writing this year than I did last year. That isn't a signal that I should stop writing or that something was a failure. Like I got enough signal that it was like, oh, there are people out here that will go out of their way to buy this and it's worth attempting more. Now at the same time,
the next several books I write may not make that much money. And so this is the tricky thing with creativity is like every creative act is sort of a bet because you are pushing the frontier of your own possibilities and what's possible in the world. And it doesn't mean it will work. I think if like everything you're doing is working, you're either some sort of genius or you're probably not taking enough risk.
Lawrence Yeo (19:45.164)
Yeah, so I have question for you. So let's say your first book, maybe what if it sold 10 % of what it did? Right. And maybe even then you consider a success. I remember you told me that there was a certain amount. Yeah, yeah. At like a fraction of what it is. Right. So, so if that if it just stayed, let's say that was the peak and then it kind of tapered off to what it's doing now or whatever. Would you still?
Paul Millerd (19:55.924)
I did declare it as success.
Lawrence Yeo (20:12.472)
feel like that was a strong enough signal that you're going to keep writing because a book may become successful in that regards for you to keep going on that path.
Paul Millerd (20:24.595)
So I think this is sort of what you're talking about in terms of aiming at the state, right? What would it take to actually feel that way, the creativity? That's your question, right? And so how I wrote my first book was I made money doing other stuff to fund the time and everything I was doing with work was designed around time freedom so I could do the things I actually wanted to do. When I finished the book, I was like, damn, that was so much fun. That was delightful.
I loved that. It was very clear to me that I wanted to do more. I think making even just selling like a thousand books, my goal was thousand books in a hundred days. And so that was success. And so it did far better than that in a hundred days. I think it sold like two or three thousand books. And to me that was like, whoa, people like books.
people like my writing, that was good enough. And so I probably would have written more books. I think what's changed now, and maybe even to the detriment where I'm like almost focusing too much on trying to make money from books now, is that I've made a lot of money from books. And it's really taken the pressure off in terms of me having to worry about making other money. Like it helped me build savings and investments such that I have a higher level of comfort now.
Lawrence Yeo (21:24.088)
you
Paul Millerd (21:53.356)
but I'm just so committed to like, I gotta try stuff. I gotta push the edges of what I'm doing. I think my second book was very much in the vein of the first book, maybe a little more experimental. Like I want to keep pushing that edge. And if I wrote 10 more books and a few of them didn't flop, I probably didn't take enough risks. Like I don't want to just write like pathless path for the soul.
Lawrence Yeo (22:06.862)
You
Lawrence Yeo (22:18.754)
Mmm.
Paul Millerd (22:22.611)
Pathless Path for the teenage soul, Pathless Path for retirees. That would probably work, right? But yeah, I'd love to hear, like how are you thinking about what does success look like for the inner compass? Did you already succeed?
Lawrence Yeo (22:27.724)
Chiang Mai.
Lawrence Yeo (22:38.638)
Dude, man, it is such a good question. And hearing you, you talk right now, it just raised a lot of light bulbs. Cause I think for me, this book is a risk. It's, it's a risk because the moment I started writing it, I was like, this is very different from probably 90 something percent of nonfiction books out on the market. Like I wasn't going to start this book off with some story about.
Paul Millerd (23:08.029)
Ben Franklin.
Lawrence Yeo (23:08.174)
Winston Churchill, like, and, and like how he exhibited bravery and he trusted himself. And, the next chapter was going to start with some, and not to knock on that style, but it's, it's not what I wanted to go for in this. Like this, to me, when I started it, I was like, it's going to really delve from my personal life, but it's not going to be a memoir. It's just going to take bits and pieces from what I've experienced personally.
And also talk about things that I haven't really talked about too much publicly when it came to like mental health struggles, physical health struggles. It just felt like this was the right vessel for that. It almost felt like I was holding off on sharing that for the right moment. You know, I've been writing online for five, six years now, and I haven't shared any of that stuff before. I haven't shared things about my depression on, on more to that or my, struggles with it in the past.
But I felt like, yeah, this was it. And I think the risk here is that not only made this format seem very unfamiliar to a lot of readers. It also was unfamiliar for me to write. And as a result, I think that I am more excited to put this thing out. There was a little bit of, you know, I'm a little scared that people that are used to reading myself read and be like, well, this is very different from.
how Lawrence has shared a lot of his work, online before, but at the same time, I feel like, Hey, this is another format. And I feel like the way I approached this came from a, like a couple of months long fit of inspiration. And what I created there probably can't be replicated again. Like if I were to try to write this now, I don't think it would come out in the way that it did. And I think that's a good signal that it came from an inspired place.
Paul Millerd (25:06.739)
Yeah, I think your readers are going to love it. I think the thing you pointed out is it's not like 90 % of books, but that would have been silly for you to do, right? It's very similar to your work, I think. I think what comes through, like the thing I was thinking about as I was reading it is, oh, this is true. This is a true story.
And when I talk about true story, it's something that it's at the most honest level of communication that you had access to as you're writing it. And you feel that as you're writing it, it's like, it is true in your sense, but in that way, your way of transmitting it, I think it becomes true for other people too. And people can connect with that in a deeper way. And that's always what I'm aiming for.
in my writing and it was just like yeah he did it he he pulled it off like it was great.
Lawrence Yeo (26:12.206)
yeah, I mean, your question about what I consider it a success. think the very fact that I'm putting it out there is I would consider it a success. And it, and this once again, goes back to my earlier discussion of what it means to be in the world. It's like, I can declare it as a success, just have written it, but that's still in the domain of the internal. Now, what I really want to do is to, I think when it comes to understanding myself,
And feeling like this book can carry further to connecting with others and creating whatever ripple effects it may like I have to go out there. I have to be out in the world, talk to people about it, get people's take on it. have conversations about it. Like these are very, very important because I consider this book to be an invitation for conversation. And the greatest compliment I got so far was a friend of mine read it. And then he said he
He gave it to his wife and then afterwards they both went on a walk, walk in the woods and they just talked about it. And I was like, the very fact that I was able to contribute to that conversation without being there with you guys, like that's a great indicator that this book resonated. So that's kind of my goal here. I want more of those kinds of things to happen. And I remember one of the conversations we had when you were, when you were putting out the pathless path, you said that.
You told yourself, I want to be ambitious and I want to sell more books. And it was this declaration. And I remember that resonated with me because that feels sometimes like you feel resistance to doing that. But when you have conviction, when you have conviction in what you've done, even if it's a risk, when you tell yourself, this is what it means for me to follow my own path.
Then ambition is a virtue. It's not something to discard. It's not something to feel like guilty over or anything like that. Because I think inherent in that ambition, there's also a sense of humility as well, because you're always interacting with others and you're not going to be an asshole about going about your work. Like you're going to do it with a sense of conviction and the way in which you do it. So yeah, it was inspiring to hear you say that.
Paul Millerd (28:36.295)
Yeah, think, yeah, it's definitely something I still battle with and I still really struggle asking for help. I think for me, it's really the, I grew up with this script of like, you need to be self-sufficient. I think a lot of Americans have this. And it's sort of like bad to want, want too much.
And I still really struggle with this. I feel like guilt asking for help, especially if know somebody has a big audience and I know there's upside for me. I think with creative work, it's a constant process of accepting the ego that comes with wanting to be seen. And what's helped?
me is just admitting to myself, I want to be loved. I want to be seen. I want to be understood. I want to be respected for doing creative work. And yeah, I still struggle with this. To be honest, I've sort of pulled away in an intentional way from the broader creator world because as my audience got bigger, I started attracting other people that saw me as somebody they could engage with.
in an instrumental way. And I had a couple of experiences that just left me feeling incredibly empty. And I still don't quite know how to engage because I think it was a lot easier when I had a smaller audience because it's sort of like when you're dating when you don't have any money, you can sort of trust the other person's into you for the right reasons. And...
Yeah, I don't have a good answer to it. How do you feel? I mean, you've sort of had a similar stance to me in terms of like, I'm just gonna let the work speak for itself. But how do you deal with that tension? Like, what do you feel when you're asking someone for help?
Lawrence Yeo (30:52.92)
Yeah, you know, I think this is one of those things where it looks like the work just speaks for itself, but behind the scenes, there's a lot happening. And I think the way in which I go about the behind the scenes stuff, a lot of what you said rings true to me too. to be like, Hey, can you share this? Or can I, can I, can you help me in this way? It's, I still feel a lot of resistance to that. I think when it comes to the work speaking for itself, what I like to do is just.
share that work with people like directly. So, Hey, this is something that I think you might be interested in. And, you know, there's no expectations here, but even then I feel like, can I get a little better at setting a particular ask? It's like, okay, I send it and like, Hey, if this resonated with you, can you share it? I still don't really do that. And I think.
This book process is also kind of testing me in that way. I think what's cool about a book though, is that there is, regardless of how easy it is now, and we'll probably talk about this when it comes to self publishing and the breaking down the illusion that it's so hard, even though it's democratized and so forth, there is still the cultural significance of a book. Like I remember when I just announced this, people were saying, congrats. And I was thinking like,
Congrats about what? Like you don't congratulate me when I write a 5,000 word blog post, but, like 10,000 word blog posts, but because I've written this book that is maybe just twice as long as that, I get a congratulations because it's a book. So, and, and what I realized is there is an openness and this embracing of like other, other fellow creators, fellow friends like you who are like, you, you wrote this, like, I want to help. so.
Paul Millerd (32:25.895)
Yeah.
Lawrence Yeo (32:47.02)
I do feel like there's a season where there is a certain season of your creative work based upon the vessel in which you're using where asks become much easier and almost almost like if you didn't ask that'd be kind of weird. Like I'm getting the sense that, dude, this is your first book. I would, I would love to help.
in a way where if I wrote a great blog post, there's not really like, Hey, like I would love to help get this thing out. mean, and thank you to people that have done that for me. And like, that's been absolutely huge, but it's, it hasn't been kind of unilateral and it's, there is not like this great push for that, that I've kind of recognized with this. So. Write more books because people are going to be down to help.
Paul Millerd (33:12.627)
Yeah.
Paul Millerd (33:35.804)
Yeah, well, and this was my push to you because I think, for one, I enjoy your writing. Two, you're in a very similar scene to me, and I think having other writers like you put stuff into the world I know is going to happen with a higher degree of care, and I just think that's good for the Commons. But the reason I was pushing you to write a book, I think I probably texted you every three months.
Lawrence, it's time. You gotta do a book. Is because...
Lawrence Yeo (34:06.51)
You did. Your name at this point is just book guy on my phone.
Paul Millerd (34:10.737)
Because I saw what happened to me. It's just a different container and artifact that people take more seriously. And I think attempting to write a book raises your own skill level in a way that's very fun if you enjoy writing. And so I've been reading about a lot about the form of a book. I'm putting out this like beautiful hardcover.
it this fall, basically because I think it matters and I care. a book is a way of, sort of have, Craig Maude writes about this, you sort of have a contract with a book. You purchase it and then you own it. Nobody can take that book from you once you own it, especially in physical form. And it has a beginning and an end. It's like an experience. And it's...
It's this finite object. There's no ask at the end of a good book. Though, like, the householdpreneurs are always trying to upsell their courses in books and whatsoever. Like, there's no ask at the end of your book. All you ask is, if you like this, continue the conversation with me. Send me an email.
Lawrence Yeo (35:29.774)
I don't even have an about the author at the end. I, I kind of intentionally didn't have that there.
Paul Millerd (35:33.701)
Yeah. Why?
Lawrence Yeo (35:39.128)
This is one of those things where I felt like...
The, just feel so strongly about people following what they're in a compass to tell, tell, take them to go. Like, and.
Paul Millerd (35:52.84)
love it. Yeah, this is great. Like a book is a container to make like a thousand of these tiny decisions to which I think just adds to it.
Lawrence Yeo (35:57.153)
Yeah.
Lawrence Yeo (36:04.972)
Yeah. And I mean, here's the thing is that a lot of me reading other people's books led me to write this book, you know, in little ways, like, you know, pathless path is very inspiring for me. There is this book called Don't Believe You Everything You Think by Joseph Nguyen that after I read that, I was like, okay, I want to try writing a short book. Like all these, all these things kind of find its way into the book, even if I'm not quoting people and so forth, like these things that you've picked up.
So in a sense, like a book is just, it's going to add to your collage of various ideas. And the more that you read these things, the more that you're to want to write one of your own. There's no one that write that wants to write a book who doesn't really read books. it's inherent in the medium is that you're a fan of it and that you see the value in it, which is why when you do it, it's like, Oh, this is a person that has put in the inordinate amount of effort to actualize that. And.
yeah, I mean, I felt like also if I, even if I didn't have an about the author, like if you like something a lot, like when I listen to good music, my first, my two questions are, right, what's the name of the song and who made it? And that's just for everything. Like I want to know who the person is, especially now with like AI and all that stuff. I'm very curious about when I read or enjoy something, I want to know the personality behind it because I want to follow their work.
Paul Millerd (37:35.411)
That's awesome. Yeah, and you can always, you could change it next week if you wanted because you self-published and you...
Lawrence Yeo (37:40.91)
That's true. Although I have to say when you add another page like that, sometimes you got to change the entire cover file because it increases by by one millimeter. So you got to, you got to think about this stuff at the same time. I've learned a lot throughout the process through this.
Paul Millerd (37:49.095)
Yeah, it's...
Paul Millerd (38:01.115)
Yeah, what I did in my second book is add a couple blank pages at the end such that I could like add stuff and change stuff in the future. But yeah, it does get pretty tricky. How did you find self-publishing? You sort of alluded to you found it easier than you expected.
Lawrence Yeo (38:07.15)
Mm.
Lawrence Yeo (38:23.188)
Yeah, I mean, I found it easier than I expected in the sense that all the tools were just readily available. Like my tool stack was vellum. I use a Mac, so I just use that. Their templates are great. And then I used Illustrator from, I even designed my own cover. So I just did that myself. I used
Illustrator for that and then yeah, just KDP. I used Ingram to print out the, you know, advanced copies and so forth. Like I'm basically doing what a publisher is doing just all on my own, sending out advanced copies, getting the word out there. And I'm doing it at a pretty small scale and like it's pretty inexpensive to do. So.
It felt like also for this book, when I started writing it, I knew the moment I started writing it, it was going to be self published because I was like, I'm not going to convert this into a proposal that I'm going to sell. I know that this is just going to be from point a to point Z. Like I wrote this thing in sequential order and all while knowing that it's going to be short, shorter books are harder sells. so with that, I'm like, I'll just remove that barrier. I'm just going to do this all myself.
the whole way through.
Paul Millerd (39:46.164)
I don't know if they're harder sells. I think like, yeah, I wouldn't talk about it as a 100 page book. It's a book. Like, it's longer than Tao Te Ching. Like, that book's doing fine.
Lawrence Yeo (40:02.862)
Yeah, yeah. But it's a different...
Paul Millerd (40:04.499)
Like there are short books, like Seth Godin wrote The Dip, that book's done really well, it's super short. Yeah, it worked as a book, it's perfect. And I sort of have a hunch that as more people continue to read and consume books digitally,
Lawrence Yeo (40:10.572)
Mm-hmm.
Paul Millerd (40:29.405)
people recommend what they finish. so finishing a book is going to become increasingly important. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if this book does better than you expect.
Lawrence Yeo (40:43.16)
Well, we'll see. And I really did write it so that you just, when you, you know, each chapter is very short and it makes you feel like you're just moving. You're, kind of quickly moving, but the tagline I kind of have in my own head here is that you could read it in a weekend, but revisit it for a lifetime. That's, that's what I want people to get out of it. It's like, you can read it quickly, but as you're reading it, you think, okay.
I want to this out later or highlight it and I want to revisit it. That's kind of how I wrote this thing. And the whole goal really is like, yeah, let's get, let's get the person to finish this thing. And at the end be like, all right. I want a little bit more. And I feel like short books are conducive to that feeling of I want more as opposed to. I wish this was shorter.
Paul Millerd (41:36.606)
Yeah, definitely. So how did this experience change how you're thinking about publishing, creating, sharing your work in the future? I think what I've seen with a lot of people who end up self-publishing a book, they do see, wow, that was easier than I thought. I now have 10 ideas for book-type projects. It moves you from the essay to book form. And this is why I...
I wish more authors would self-publish because I think they traditionally publish and it's like a big thing and they just can't whip up the energy to like do another one after they put one book out. So given you are pursuing other routes with your next book now, like how are you thinking about like the arc of a continued writing and creative career?
Lawrence Yeo (42:28.546)
I feel like you could treat books as a portfolio of anything, right? And in the same way that people that once wrote online are now doing YouTube and YouTubers are writing books, vice versa. Like you also could approach a book in different ways. So with the inner compass, I knew that I wanted it to be a more solitary endeavor. I.
There was just something about this book where it was just hit so close to home in terms of the topic that I wanted to just be with myself for this. And especially because I was talking about some very personal topics in there. I think when it comes to the following book, I was like, I want to do it with other people. And there is something about. The Avenue.
Or the intention that you want to do with other people kind of have your team around that. That you'll kind of know when it comes to certain topics, which feels more right. It really is intuition here. And I feel like if people pursue traditional publishing, like there is kind of what's your intention for that. Right. And I don't view it just in terms of like your advance or all that. It's more of like, why do you want to work with other people on this?
Paul Millerd (43:57.448)
Yeah.
Lawrence Yeo (43:58.142)
Because with self-publishing, it's different. I think it's one of those things where you can really just do it on your own. So what you're going to do is spend a lot of time just alone, most of your time alone, figuring out all the bells and whistles logistically and also the creative processes more so yourself. But if you know you want to do with others, then traditional publishing is a great route to pursue. Self-publishing, I think is...
Yeah. What's that topic? Like, for example, people that want to write a memoir, for example, like you do, you do not need to go through the process of finding a team to work with. If you know, this is just going to be you diving into your own life experiences. And if you just want to get that energy out, then just do self publishing. So I feel like a lot of time people just think about when it comes to writing a book, like, what do I know? Like, what's my expertise?
All right. What's my knowledge of a topic? And they choose it based on that. But the other part really is what do you feel inspired to do right now? And I think this crossroad, a lot of people miss. They just go off of the expertise one, but you really want the intersection of expertise and inspiration. And when I wrote this, I was like, I just need to go. I need to go right now. I need to do this right now. So if you have that feeling of you got to do it right now,
Paul Millerd (45:17.339)
I love it.
Lawrence Yeo (45:23.682)
I think self-publishing is a great, great option. You're just going to, you're not going to do a proposal. You're just going to go. But.
Paul Millerd (45:30.705)
Yeah, that's definitely what I felt with both my books. It's like, I have to write about this right now. The idea of ever writing a proposal would just be insane, because I just would rather write the book.
Lawrence Yeo (45:44.014)
See? like that's, and I think everyone has different preferences, like different creative processes. So I really, you know, there's kind of that, this debate of like self publishing or traditional publishing and all that stuff. And, you know, we have friends that have ventured into both as well. And I feel like it ultimately depends on what you want creatively, what you want creatively. And then also, right? Like
Is there some sort of financial baseline that you are looking for upfront as opposed to after you have written the whole thing? Like these considerations all depend on your life circumstances. So while you can explore what each of them, the pros and cons of each in the end, you just got to go with what you feel compelled to do right now. And don't let fear get in the way. think if you were to choose any of the options, don't make
fear the reason why you choose one or the other. If I, if I were to just give one piece of advice, it would be that I think a lot of people don't self publish because they're like, well, it's not going to, it's not going to go anywhere. I'm just, I'm just choosing myself. So there's no backing here. And as a result, why do it when in that quote, unquote, inevitably, it's not going to go anywhere. If that's the reason you're thinking about it, I say, just try it out. Just try it out. Test your theory.
And see what happens as like personally what happens to your own life just from the very fact that you have written this book.
Paul Millerd (47:20.871)
Yeah, to quote Lawrence Yeoh, when you see the fork for the first time, the well-paid path will scream for your attention because the whole situation is foreign. The mind will seek the option that seems most reliable, which is signaled through the affirmation of others. Boom, we nailed it.
Lawrence Yeo (47:42.2)
So can I expand on that analogy a little bit? All right, I got to read the book then to get the whole analogy. But.
Paul Millerd (47:46.191)
No, you had your shot, the book's over.
Paul Millerd (47:52.883)
You can expand.
Lawrence Yeo (47:56.502)
Okay. So this analogy I really thought about, cause I was like, yeah, why do we, why do we have this tendency to accept, you know, we could use your, your terminology cause I'm on your podcast, the default path here. And, you know, we could really view these two things as like the default path and the pathless path. Except I think when it comes to the pathless path, in this case, you have a sense that someone has kind of walked something similar, right? Which is why it's still a path.
But I feel like most metaphors of this kind is just about, right, which path do you take? But I wanted to add another wrinkle, which is like the repetition element. Right. What would you do if you came across this the first time for the 10th time and for the hundredth time? Cause the first time I think, yeah, people just choose the default path because everything is foreign. You're not thinking about, I want to exercise my curiosity. You're like, I just need to.
Get out, going with my life. The 10th time. The interesting thing is that like, why are even there 10 times? Right? Like if you're, if you're hiking somewhere and you go to the same thing, the same fork 10 times and you're deliberating, you're there because the other thing seems kind of intriguing. But it may not have been enough times for you to actually take the pathless path. You would just go take the default one, but your thoughts will start to change. You become more curious about the other path.
Paul Millerd (48:57.672)
Right.
Paul Millerd (49:03.635)
Right.
Lawrence Yeo (49:24.47)
Now, hundred times, this changes things because this would be the example of someone that continues going into a job that they absolutely detest day in and day out while each day thinking, I know there's something else. I know there's something, I know what that thing is, but I'm just not doing it. Then in that case, the question doesn't really become about the path that you're not choosing. It becomes more directed to yourself. Like, how come I can't do it? What's going on here? Come on.
So there's this interesting relationship just between the amount of times you show up to the divide and how, the frequency of that increases, your attachment or the weight you put on certainty also diminishes and curiosity starts to take the helm. And that's when it's really important to listen to. And eventually people take that pathless path, but a lot of times very late in life.
And that's why you hear about people doing it. You know, why is it when they hear they're going to die, they start ticking items off the bucket list. Cause they've hit that for thousands of times and they didn't do it. So.
Paul Millerd (50:37.139)
Yeah, I love this. think this is something I talk about a lot too. people look at my path and say, oh, he quit his job. But the reality is I changed jobs, counting internships. I was in nine different internships and 14 or nine different jobs, counting internships. Uh, I did two years for grad school. And so I was changing things up every like 12 to 24 months.
And it was pretty intense every time. And every time I think that curiosity just became more and more. And choosing to do my own thing didn't actually feel that crazy when I did it. What felt crazy was how the world treated me and how I felt shifting into self-employment. I actually thought it would be smoother than I experienced because I had made so many changes.
But yeah, but early in my career, like people were always criticizing me for, you're changing jobs too much. You got to stay longer. And I just sort of had this hunch. Like I just need to keep shaking things up. I just keep needing to try things. So I think that's spot on. And fast forward, like a big publisher offers me a, purchase my book and pursue the fame and attention game.
And it was very easy to walk away at that point. I just had so many reps of stepping into the unknown and following my curiosity. And it was more exciting to turn it down. It wasn't that I was making a strategic decision. was just like I was just more naturally leaning into myself by moving away from that decision.
Lawrence Yeo (52:31.87)
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Paul Millerd (52:33.447)
So what's the next book for you?
Lawrence Yeo (52:37.198)
So the next book will
Paul Millerd (52:40.029)
Can you share information about it and how you decided to go with them?
Lawrence Yeo (52:46.318)
Well, I don't really want to share the news of like where I kind of ended up with right now. Um, but I could talk about just like what it's going to be about. Um, the, book itself will be about money. So yeah. And I think that in the end, you know, you, you, I kind of laugh when you texted me, you were like, yeah, money is the final frontier of inner work. And, and it is, it's like.
Paul Millerd (53:00.136)
Nice.
Lawrence Yeo (53:14.306)
the the thing where we developing the the relationship you want with it is extremely difficult. And if anything, that would probably the biggest pushback to questions of following your inner compass and your intuition. And how is that going to lead to a life in which you can function in the world through money? Right. I mean,
My theory is that you can align those two. You can, but it's not just the function of earning more and more. There is a lot of it, which is having a very close look at how you view it and how it's so baked into your sense of identity. So that's kind of what I'm thinking about for the next one. you know, when you were talking about
your last book and how there was an offer that came in to get that. feel like in your case, like, because you already wrote the book, right? You already wrote the book. You didn't do it with an editor and so forth, right? So I think that's a different position too, right? And as opposed to if you're entering into it, knowing that you're going to be working with a publisher that makes it more collaborative.
Paul Millerd (54:18.107)
Right. Yeah. Very different.
Paul Millerd (54:37.427)
Yeah, mean, publishing houses are not set up to purchase already published books. They had no ideas for me. The price was too low. Their idea was we're gonna send e-books to bloggers. That's what they told me. I said, what's your most creative idea you wanna do with this? Why do you wanna work with it? They're like, all right, we're gonna take it out of print. We're gonna put a new cover on it. We're gonna clean up the editing and then...
Lawrence Yeo (54:43.022)
you
Paul Millerd (55:05.181)
we're going to send the ebook to bloggers and I'm like, what? and so it was also just like, I'd miss out on earnings. was making, I was selling an insane amount. was sold like 5,000 the month they tried to buy the book. So their idea was to take it out of print and like, I have a background in business. That's just a bad business decision. What are we doing?
Lawrence Yeo (55:08.28)
Mm.
Lawrence Yeo (55:35.134)
I mean, your circumstance was very different. I think, I don't feel like a lot of people in that position where publishers are offering to buy their books are, are doing that. I mean, cause yours kind of picked up more in the second year, right? So it like, I think the trajectory of your book was somewhat anomalous. Yeah.
Paul Millerd (55:35.639)
Paul Millerd (55:39.025)
Yeah.
Paul Millerd (55:51.345)
Yeah, right.
Paul Millerd (55:57.33)
Yeah, definitely. And yeah, I still think like there's probably a creative publisher that I'd be really excited to work with. I'd love to do a print only deal. I think there is a market of people I haven't been able to reach. It'll be interesting. My book is being launched by a big publisher in Taiwan in traditional Chinese in two weeks. And they are doing like big media stuff and launching it in the book.
Lawrence Yeo (56:18.562)
Mm-hmm.
Paul Millerd (56:24.637)
the main bookstores and it's going to be in Hong Kong and other Chinese speaking countries. So it'd be really interesting what the arc of it is. And that may feed back to other people willing to take a chance. But I think for the most part, US publishers are like only do one kind of deal and they can't get more creative. But I think that's going to change because more people are going to self publish and traditional publishers are just going to be forced to.
Lawrence Yeo (56:38.307)
Yeah.
Paul Millerd (56:54.188)
be more creative and flexible if they want to work with the best writers.
Lawrence Yeo (56:58.552)
Well, you mentioned Craig Maude, right? And he kind of has this interesting situation. Yeah. So like the Trudycom Publisher.
Paul Millerd (57:01.521)
Yeah, he's doing this too. He's maintaining rights to his hundred dollar book and then sending the regular book through Penguin. But he negotiated directly with the president of Penguin, which maybe I should email him.
Lawrence Yeo (57:10.958)
Yeah.
Lawrence Yeo (57:16.812)
Right.
Lawrence Yeo (57:24.384)
Yeah.
Paul Millerd (57:26.841)
Yeah, when you're dealing with lower levels, they just don't have the autonomy to make those decisions.
Lawrence Yeo (57:32.258)
Well, I think even for him, was, he was doing something where, there was a dynamic where they were concerned that the fine art edition was going to cannibalize sales from the wider edition. So there was like, let's put a cap on how much you need or you need to sell this amount for the, the traditionally published edition before you put out more of the fine art one and so forth. was.
like this kind of interesting back and forth and compromise of sorts, but all this to say that I do think there are this kind of they're more adaptive agreements or so forth that are occurring as self publishing becomes more and more prevalent. And also there's an understanding that everyone talks to each other. Like this is because I think it's no longer a situation where you have to
be a journalist and then work your way up and then like you get a book deal or something. It's like these pockets of the internet where we all kind of know each other and everyone is exploring different ways of doing things and things of that nature. So there's the knowledge of that. And I think the knowledge of that is also creating interesting situations where there's more adaptations involved.
Paul Millerd (58:29.287)
Right.
Paul Millerd (58:48.007)
Definitely. What, yeah, how many people do you send pre or early copies to? I'm just curious about some of the launch approach.
Lawrence Yeo (59:00.866)
Yeah. So I sent Paul about like 50 something out so far. So some that are international, like, like yours and some that are domestic. And I sent out more digital versions as well. So I really thought about how I, how I could get the engine going, but really thinking about.
Paul Millerd (59:06.93)
Nice.
Lawrence Yeo (59:31.106)
the people that I know already love my work. like these are the people, yeah, these are the people that was, that will share the book the most. And, and, and fortunately the way more to that is set up is that like, have run many cohorts of my storytelling course. And, you know, these are people that have paid a thousand dollars or more to be a part of the program. So they're very, very invested in my work. So.
Paul Millerd (59:35.271)
Yeah, that's so key.
Lawrence Yeo (01:00:00.776)
I'm actually helping to, I want to leverage that support. So I've also sent many of them like a digital copy and say, Hey, you know, if you, if you want to read it beforehand, and then when the book comes out, you could actually buy the book and then leave a review. and I think this is also important because like Amazon, they weigh verified purchase reviews more than just like, if you read the book as an advanced copy and you left the review.
So like these little intricacies matter. and then also I've. Yeah. Like I've just, I'm also doing something kind of different here where I don't have a pre-order campaign. There's no pre-orders. what I'm optimizing for is driving everyone on, on day one to the Amazon page and basically seeing, you know, like, I don't know how it will turn out, but.
Instead of this kind of trickle pre-orders thing, and also people can't order the physical version, for pre-orders. I have a feeling that people will want the physical version of this book because it's illustrated. So as a result, I wanted that to be available the moment they could buy the book. so instead of doing a pre-order campaign, I'm doing this, pop-up community where basically people that have joined the wait list, I think it's almost like a thousand people now.
Paul Millerd (01:01:04.552)
Yeah.
Paul Millerd (01:01:18.098)
Nice.
Lawrence Yeo (01:01:29.292)
will be, I'll get an invite to a community and it's a pop-up community. So in just two weeks, they'll close, but I want to host like readings for the book. So I'm trying to create like this nice little intimate atmosphere where people feel, like they kind of know the book before the book is out and kind of have this sense of investment into it. So.
Paul Millerd (01:01:41.973)
yeah.
Lawrence Yeo (01:01:59.756)
I think one of the things that I've realized about kind of the way I've built more to that is that I've really built it around people's support for the work. I could, and I really want to hone in on that when it comes to going deep. And when it comes to going wide, you know, it's all like the behind the scenes, sending people copies and stuff like that. So there's a combination of both things that I'm doing here.
Paul Millerd (01:02:30.343)
Yeah, I love that. think valuing those readers is so important. It's often those people who will buy your book for 10 people or keep talking about it for years. And I think people undervalue those sort of offline nodes of sharing and index way too much on big voices. The reality with people with big audiences is their recommendation isn't going to resonate that much unless they actually share it as
in a meaningful way. Like I think the reason like Ali Abdel is sharing my book did so well in terms of actual sales is he actually quit his job and had to let go of prestige and he had read my writing for years. And so he was able to connect with the work in a way that felt genuine to people. Granted like if you can get somebody with like
Lawrence Yeo (01:03:12.547)
Mm-hmm.
Lawrence Yeo (01:03:24.29)
Yeah.
Paul Millerd (01:03:28.805)
If you can get Mr. Beast to share your book, like that's probably going to sell a lot of books regardless if he's read it. But, yeah, I love that. think, you're going about it the right way. And also your hunch is right. Like pre-sales don't matter really for, self published books. my lowest weeks of sales for the path this path where the first four weeks and
Lawrence Yeo (01:03:36.919)
Right, right.
Lawrence Yeo (01:03:57.038)
Mm-hmm.
Paul Millerd (01:03:58.0)
It's fine. Like a book can take off at any time. The only reason traditional publishers care about presales is because they want to send a signal to bookstores to keep stocking it. That is why people are obsessed with presales.
Lawrence Yeo (01:04:07.31)
Right, right. Yeah, it's a different customer base than that. Mm hmm. Yeah. And then I'm also not trying to hit a list because it's self published. It's you know, it's not going to hit a list even if it sells 10,000 copies in the first week. Maybe that has changed though. I don't know, but I'm not really aiming for that.
Paul Millerd (01:04:26.641)
No, it's a bigger game than ever. There's all sorts of shenanigans that go in the back. People often try to get, people either fund strategic bulk purchases by these anonymous buying services or they get companies to do bulk, but it's, Yeah, you're not wired like that. Not worth it.
Lawrence Yeo (01:04:33.367)
Okay.
Lawrence Yeo (01:04:50.958)
Yeah, needless to say, I'm not, I'm not pursuing those options. it just doesn't, doesn't make sense. And nor would I even feel very great that like it would, it would hit a list in that way. I.
Paul Millerd (01:04:54.675)
Paul Millerd (01:05:04.059)
I honestly think it's like a counter signal if you're hitting it for like a week. Like James Clear being on the list for five straight years, that is a very impressive signal. But like if you're just like popping on it for one week because you did some shenanigans and then you're off, like I don't know.
Lawrence Yeo (01:05:25.656)
Well, it's a different, it's a different game. And I think like, when it comes to this one, you know, I'm doing, I'm, I'm doing what I can to spread the word about it. And I'm doing it in a way where I also just want to have fun and that I have the privilege of doing it where I've already been writing for six years. Right. So there's people that I know care.
Paul Millerd (01:05:27.443)
different game
Lawrence Yeo (01:05:55.67)
you know, and
Paul Millerd (01:05:56.084)
Well, like Joseph Wynn's book, it got republished by Authors Equity, right? And it made the list. But I think in that case, it was because people loved that book, right? And everyone wanted to support him. So there's nothing stopping that. I think too many people to see, like a book is really like something you're going to be talking about for 10 years. And so you really got to write what you care about.
Lawrence Yeo (01:06:01.78)
Yeah.
Lawrence Yeo (01:06:09.474)
Yeah.
Right, right.
Lawrence Yeo (01:06:24.992)
Right, right. And, and like you said, it matters the way people talk about your book, right? It's not just like, take a picture of it. And this I'm excited to dive in, you know, like the, thing that will actually sell books is like someone telling you, Hey, have you read, have you read this book? It really was fantastic. There it is, man. It's so crazy. It's so crazy to see that.
Paul Millerd (01:06:46.675)
The, the, the inner compass. Um, I'm getting a physical book. I'm going to take a really beautiful shot, um, with the book and share it. I'm really excited for you. I am pumped. have another person I can talk about seeing every ideas book-shaped form. Um, yeah. And excited to see how it does and looking forward to your next book as well. I'm sort of writing a book about money right now.
Lawrence Yeo (01:06:51.214)
Yeah.
Paul Millerd (01:07:15.973)
It may just be personal therapy, but yeah, I think that topic deserves a lot more views. So excited about that as well.
Lawrence Yeo (01:07:18.35)
Hmm.
Lawrence Yeo (01:07:27.022)
So I wanted to ask you a last question here, because I'm just curious, like, if you were to recommend this book to your friend or someone you meet, like, what would you tell them that you enjoyed about it the most?
Paul Millerd (01:07:41.201)
I would say, hey, if you're...
I think for somebody, especially at the start of a creative journey, this is just sort of a really helpful book that helps you think about the inner game of living a creative life. And from somebody, I think, who's doing it in a very sort of like principled way.
Lawrence Yeo (01:08:13.26)
Hmm. Hmm.
Paul Millerd (01:08:14.803)
Yeah, because it's actually very hard to recommend stuff. I don't have a lot. I already added you to my path list book recommendations. I have a, I have a list of books and, Laura LeCunf's book, Tiny Experiments. really liked that book. I think it's a really good companion for a lot of the stuff I'm talking about, but trying to make a living around creative work. I don't think there are tons of great books around that.
There are a lot of books around the business of selling creative works and the business of making money as a creator. But I don't think there are a lot of books around the inner journey of these kind of paths because it's very weird. And to do it in a principled way often looks like failure to others.
Lawrence Yeo (01:09:12.034)
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, that's interesting that you really kind of took the creative part of the book and, hone the focus there. I, I'll, I'll be curious to see like where, what angles people resonate with. Cause there's kind of different angles. I think I take to the question of self understanding.
Paul Millerd (01:09:32.146)
Yeah, I think I also resonated a lot with the health struggles. think, I think there's a deep connection between the acceptance of such things. Like I've dealt with chronic health issues for 13 years now, and I resonated so deeply with just your, like, the tension of wanting to resolve that, that grasping. And I think there actually is a deep connection.
with that and a creative life, creative path. Because for me, as I recovered from the most intense stretch over two years of the health crisis, there was a letting go process, right? The part that let me recover was a letting go of needing to be back to my healthy self. I've never really recovered in that sense. But letting go of that, just being open to
You know, I might face a month-long stretch of fatigue and just not feeling right. Or, I mean, I still, I mean, I was thinking about this as I was reading the book. I wasn't sleeping in the middle of the night. And some of my sleep challenges are still downstream of these health challenges. But it's, I don't stress about not sleeping. Like if I'm tired, so what? I often just read books.
And so not grasping, not needing things to be a certain way, not needing outcomes, it's all directly translatable to creativity. And I think it's why so many people that go through health crises often transform their lives or head in more interesting directions after, because there has to be this way of showing up differently in the world. So yeah, that was sort of the connection I made as well.
Lawrence Yeo (01:11:27.17)
Hmm. Yeah. Thanks for sharing, man. yeah, I think when it comes to health issues, there is a huge component of also you recognizing that when you're going through that issue, you have, you still could experience hits of contentment and, being aware of that, like cataloging that, I just laughed and, and like, I thought I didn't think I would be able to do that when this thing first came and
As a result, that also deepens the trust in your ability to navigate it. So yeah, thanks for sharing.
Paul Millerd (01:12:02.873)
Awesome. Check out the book. This will be going up pretty quickly. I don't have a team, just me and AI tools. And yeah, where can people find out about this? Just more to that.com.
Lawrence Yeo (01:12:11.394)
haha
Lawrence Yeo (01:12:17.336)
Yeah, more to that.com is where my digital home is there. did create a site for the book. Just compass dot more to that.com and all the information about the book could be there. It's a short page, just like the book itself.
Paul Millerd (01:12:32.861)
Beautiful. Thank you so much and excited to see how your journey continues to evolve.
Lawrence Yeo (01:12:40.77)
Same for you, as always. Thank you.
