103 - Exploring Ecclesiology in Youth and Children's Ministry

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This file was generated by Descript
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. Annemarie: Welcome.
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I'm Anne-Marie Rivers and
I'm here with Al James.
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Hello.
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And today we're talking about
ecclesiology, uh, which is
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the theology of the church.
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But here's a question for us to
consider before we get into it.
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Is youth group.
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Church is kids church, church is
our afterschool Kids clubs, church.
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What do you think?
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Al: Yeah, that is a, it's a great question
and it's, um, one that in our, um,
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children's and youth ministry foundations
course we love to wrestle over.
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Um, you know, associated question
is morning tea, church is supper,
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church, all these kinds of things.
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Um, and, uh, I don't
actually know the answer.
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Or I, I mean, I probably have leanings.
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I'm not gonna give them
away at this point in time.
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But, um, some people when we, when we
teach this, some people are very strongly
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of the opinion that kids church or kids
club or youth group is church, just in the
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same way that, you know, a Sunday service.
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Um, or a Saturday night service or
whatever it is that you'd normally kind of
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consider church to be is, you know, they
think it definitely is church, kids club,
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youth group, and some people are very
much of the opinion that, um, kids club
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or youth group is definitely not church.
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And, um, and you know, where you
land on that will impact on the, the
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way in which you kind of go about
ministry to some, to some degree.
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Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
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And we encourage you to
think about your reasons.
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Like you've probably had a strong
reaction, definitely some of you have.
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Um, but why, what are your reasons
for having that perspective?
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Particular perspective.
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And really in this conversation,
we want to, uh, yeah, dig into what
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ecclesiology means for our, um, children's
and youth practice and what are our,
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the different perspectives on that.
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Um, and that might be a
little bit disruptive.
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Um, but that's okay.
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We can.
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We can wrestle with the questions
and see where we go with it.
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Al: Mm-hmm.
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Absolutely.
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Annemarie: What other questions
might ecclesiology seek to answer?
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Al: Yeah, so first of all,
I guess like what is church?
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Um, things like who is church?
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Like, are there people that are, you
know, sitting in a Sunday service
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that are church and that aren't
church or aren't part of the church?
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Like, what is the church for?
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What's it.
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What's its purpose?
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Does it have a purpose?
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You know, what, uh, what makes
church, church, like what are
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the, the, you know, the compulsory
ga the compulsory activities?
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Like, are there, are there compulsory
activities that make something church?
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How many people do you have to
have there for it to be church?
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You know, can you have church on your own
or do you have to have other people there?
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Some denominational questions like,
you know, is the Anglican church the
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church, or is the local denominate
the, sorry, the local gathering.
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Church, so you kind of got, you
know, denominational versus local,
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all these sorts of questions.
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So like any question you can come
up with to think about church, um,
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these are the kinds of things that
ecclesiology will seek to answer.
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Annemarie: Okay.
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Well that sounds great.
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Let's dig into it.
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Uh, so let's start with that first one.
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What is the church?
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Al: Yeah, so, and it, I mean, it's
probably worth saying that a lot
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of what we're talking about here
comes out in, um, chase Koons.
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Great paper on, uh, ecclesiology and
Young People, um, which he presented a
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number of years ago at House Conference.
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It's called the Doctrine of the
Church and Age Specific Ministries.
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Um, you can also find it actually
in a really great book, Australian
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Evangelical Perspectives on Youth
Ministry, um, which, you know,
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you can Google that and find that
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Annemarie: That's right.
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Edited by Ruth Lacayo.
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Al: Yeah.
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Who is, you know, one of the
lectures at Youth Works College.
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And, um, he really kind of, um, in his
paper, he talks a fair bit about, um,
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the, the theology or the ecclesiology of
Donald Robertson and, um, Broughton Knox,
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who, um, have, have had a big influence in
ecclesiology in the Sydney Anglican world.
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And a lot of, uh, a lot of
what they talk about revolves
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around the Greek word Ecclesia.
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Now, Emory, like, what does
the Greek word Ecclesia mean?
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Annemarie: Church.
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Al: Church Gathering.
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Annemarie: Gathering.
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Al: Gathering, yeah.
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So specifically gathering.
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And so, um, you know, uh, chase Koons
sort of takes us through, um, some of
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the, some of the thinking that's happened.
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And he talks about how Donald Robinson
says that the biblical word for
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church means simply the gathering.
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So it's the activity of the people of God,
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Annemarie: and
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Al: therefore it's not the people of God.
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Per se.
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Okay.
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So it's the, the activity
of the people of God.
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So it's a, it's a verb,
like it's a doing word chur.
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It's like churching or
gathering that kind of thing.
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So that's Donald Robinson.
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Annemarie: So Robinson's making
the distinction between, uh, what
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people are doing in gathering
as opposed to who they are.
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Al: Yes.
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And I guess what that means is that
if it's not the people of God per
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se, that means that a denomination
under Donald Robinson's views a
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denomination is not the church.
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The local gathering is the church.
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There's a lot of kind of, uh,
you know, focus on the local
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expression of gathering together.
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Annemarie: And there are
some other perspectives too.
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Al: Yeah.
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So Kevin Giles comes along and he
says, well, the biblical word for
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church can mean both the people
of God and the activity of the
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people of God, which is gathering.
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And then Graham Cole comes along
and he says, both the people of God
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and the gathering of God's people
are important, but they're distinct.
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So the church that is the
gathering is always and only the
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gathering of the people of God.
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And so.
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It becomes really, uh, you
know, under, under this view.
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And, you know, this sort of has, um,
played out over time, but under this
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view it is very much the gathering.
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So it's about that activity
of coming together, the
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gathering of the people of God.
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And so that sort of raises the, the
question then, um, what happens to
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the church when it's not gathering?
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Like does it stop?
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Like does it just cease to exist?
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Annemarie: Mm.
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That's an excellent question.
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Yeah.
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But I've got another question for you.
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Mm.
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Where does the church come from?
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Al: Yeah, so Chase Kein really helpfully,
um, says in his paper, the church
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is a creature of the word of God.
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That is the church comes
from the word of God.
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And so the church comes into
existence through the hearing and
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responding to the word of God.
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And he says the word precedes faith.
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And without the word, there is no faith.
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With no faith, there is no church.
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As the church is by definition
a community of faith.
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Faith.
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And so the people of God are
redeemed by faith in Christ.
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Annemarie: Wow.
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I think I've gotta slow down
and listen to that again.
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Al: Yeah.
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Do you want me to read it again?
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Yeah.
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Alright.
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Okay.
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So the word precedes faith.
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Faith.
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And without the word there is no faith.
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With no faith, there is no
church as the church is by
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definition, a community of faith.
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The people of God redeemed
by faith in Christ.
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And so this hearing of the word, um, this
responding in faith is what brings the
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church or brings church into existence.
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It's the hearing and the
responding to the word of God.
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That means the church exists at all.
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Annemarie: Okay, so let's just step
back for a minute and summarize.
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Mm-hmm.
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So far we've talked about, uh, the
church is created by the word of God.
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Mm-hmm.
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Um, as that, as you were just
explaining with the quote from Chase.
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Mm-hmm.
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Uh, what else?
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Al: Yeah.
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So it's, it's created by the word of God.
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Um, it's the gathering so that, that
word gathering really important.
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It's of the people of God.
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Okay.
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So even if the activity of gathering is
distinct from the, the people that gather
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it is still a gathering of those people.
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Um.
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And it's around God's word for
the building up of God's people.
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Okay?
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So we, we know that from, um, you
know, one Corinthians and places where
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it talks about this idea of edifying.
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Um, and so that's, that's
sort of what it is.
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It's also an activity of the people of
God, but it's not the people of God.
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Okay?
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So the church, the Anglican
church, according to, to Chase
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Coon, the Anglican church, the
denomination, that's not the church.
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The gathering of God's people.
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That is church.
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Annemarie: Yeah.
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So the gathering is a
really key concept here.
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Mm-hmm.
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Which does lead to the question of
like, what are we gathering for?
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Mm-hmm.
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Al: Mm.
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So what's the purpose of church?
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Annemarie: Yeah.
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That could be another way to say it.
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What is the purpose?
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Al: Yeah.
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So, um, Webster would say,
and Chase Coon kind of, um,
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outline, outlines this for us.
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He would say that the church is
defined as the hearing church.
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So its purpose is to hear the word of God.
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And so.
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Um, related to, I guess, what
the purpose of the church is.
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Um, uh, Robinson suggests that because the
church is the gathering of god's people
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around God's word for fellowship and the
building up of God's people, the task
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of church and get ready for this Emory,
it's, I'm just about to drop a bomb.
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Annemarie: Mm-hmm.
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Al: The task of church
is not evangelistic.
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Annemarie: Yeah.
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Okay, so, so Robinson was saying
that church isn't about evangelism.
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Al: Well, I'm not sure that he would say
that It's that he's certainly not anti
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evangelism, but he is saying that the
task of the church or maybe the purpose
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of church is not necessarily evangelistic.
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So, um.
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Annemarie: um,
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Al: You know, I, I think there's
certainly place for evangelism,
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within this ecclesiology.
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But, I guess it's just to sort of, make
clear that that's not the sole purpose
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of the church, or that that's not the
primary purpose even of the church.
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That the purpose is to hear the
word of God and respond, and in
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that context, I mean, in some
ways that is what evangelism is.
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It's the hearing and responding
to God's word, um, of people
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that haven't heard yet.
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Um, but he would say that the primary
purpose of church is not evangelism.
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Even if evangelism happens
as the church gathers.
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Annemarie: Yeah.
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Okay.
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And there are different
perspectives on that, isn't it?
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Like there's, there's people that would
say the church exists to be itself,
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to, to just be this, uh, this gathering
of God's people who respond and hear
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God's word as you've been saying.
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Uh, whereas others might say no, that
there is a purpose that flows out of it.
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Yeah.
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Al: Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah.
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So, and I think that's really
important sort of thing to, it's a
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really important question to ask Yeah.
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Is does the church have a, is,
is it a means to a greater end?
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Annemarie: um,
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Al: Or is it a good end in and of itself?
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And I think that, that Knox and Robinson
would say that the gathering of God's
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people is a good in and of itself.
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You could argue that its greater end
is the glory of God, um, as well.
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But, the activity of gathering is,
is a wonderful expression because
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it's bringing together god's people.
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And so it's kind of bringing together
the community of people that God
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has brought, that God has saved
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Annemarie: So what you're saying
there reminds me a little bit of what
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Paul talks about in Ephesians, uh,
chapter one and two, I think, where
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he's talking about, you know, um, the
gathering of God's people in the, in
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the heavenly church, so to speak, um,
and the glory that that brings to God.
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In the unity of the church,
basically in church being what it is.
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So I hear you saying that Robinson
is not anti anti evangelism.
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Like so where, what is
the place of evangelism?
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Al: Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So how, like, how does evangelism
take place within his ecclesiology?
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So the activity of the people of
God, um, is a good end in and of
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itself, but I, I mean, I think that
there are a bunch of ways in which
00:12:02.620 --> 00:12:05.380
evangelism does happen in that context.
00:12:05.380 --> 00:12:10.690
Well, number one, the, the preaching
and the hearing and the responding to.
00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:16.210
The word of God, in some senses,
that is an evangelistic thing, right?
00:12:16.210 --> 00:12:20.980
So if a nonbeliever is in the gathering,
um, and they hear the word of God
00:12:20.980 --> 00:12:24.250
and they respond to it, and they, and
they, you know, whether it's over a
00:12:24.250 --> 00:12:29.230
long period of time or whether it's
instantaneously they convert well,
00:12:30.040 --> 00:12:32.140
you know, that is what evangelism is
00:12:32.378 --> 00:12:35.858
Annemarie: That reminds me about,
um, it, it's one Corinthians isn't
00:12:35.858 --> 00:12:38.948
it, where he talks about the outsider
coming in and seeing the church
00:12:38.948 --> 00:12:40.448
in action and being convicted.
00:12:40.688 --> 00:12:40.778
Yeah.
00:12:40.868 --> 00:12:44.708
Um, of, you know, the reality
of the gospel of, of God
00:12:44.708 --> 00:12:46.208
because of what they see.
00:12:46.298 --> 00:12:46.448
Yeah.
00:12:46.508 --> 00:12:50.228
And also about what Jesus said in terms
of if you love one another, then the whole
00:12:50.228 --> 00:12:51.758
world will know that you're my disciples.
00:12:51.758 --> 00:12:54.788
Like that loving one another
only happens as they gather.
00:12:54.793 --> 00:12:54.968
Yeah, yeah,
00:12:54.973 --> 00:12:55.283
Al: yeah, yeah.
00:12:55.283 --> 00:12:58.553
Which makes this the intelligibility
thing really important.
00:12:58.553 --> 00:12:58.793
Right?
00:12:58.793 --> 00:13:01.913
So like in one one Corinthians,
it, it definitely talks about the
00:13:01.913 --> 00:13:03.203
importance of intelligibility.
00:13:03.203 --> 00:13:06.383
You don't want, you don't want,
you don't want what you do as you
00:13:06.383 --> 00:13:11.573
gather to, to be unintelligible to
the outsider, even if it's weird.
00:13:12.263 --> 00:13:16.883
Still needs to be understandable because,
because I, and I think that part of that
00:13:16.883 --> 00:13:21.683
is that the activity of gathering is
in some ways inherently evangelistic,
00:13:21.713 --> 00:13:23.603
even if that's not the purpose of it.
00:13:24.293 --> 00:13:27.653
The other thing is, as, as you think
about , one Peter chapter two, where it
00:13:27.863 --> 00:13:31.703
talks about the idea of, you know, God's
people being a chosen people, a royal who
00:13:31.733 --> 00:13:37.613
priesthood a holy nation, God's special
possession, that they may declare the
00:13:37.613 --> 00:13:42.028
praises of him who called you out of
darkness and into his wonderful light and.
00:13:42.438 --> 00:13:46.698
You know, you get this picture as well
in, um, in verse 12 of living such
00:13:46.698 --> 00:13:50.088
good lives amongst the pagans, that
though they accuse you of doing wrong,
00:13:50.418 --> 00:13:54.198
that they may see your good deeds and
glorify God on the day that he visits us.
00:13:54.198 --> 00:13:57.588
And so, you know, this idea
of the gathered people of God.
00:13:58.148 --> 00:14:05.678
Or certainly the people of God being like
the mediators between God and the world.
00:14:05.948 --> 00:14:10.748
And so I think, I actually think that as
we gather together and we do, we do the
00:14:10.748 --> 00:14:13.238
things of gathering, we hear God's word.
00:14:13.568 --> 00:14:18.608
We, you know, we act together,
respond, praise, um, praise God.
00:14:18.668 --> 00:14:20.948
You know, corporately, I actually
think that that is a really
00:14:20.948 --> 00:14:22.868
powerful witness to the world.
00:14:23.018 --> 00:14:24.098
And so we want.
00:14:24.548 --> 00:14:29.108
Our gatherings to be kind of open and
have this sort of porous edge so that,
00:14:29.408 --> 00:14:31.088
you know, people are in the gathering.
00:14:31.088 --> 00:14:35.678
They're seeing the weird and wonderful
and strange things that the people
00:14:35.678 --> 00:14:37.388
have God are doing as they gather.
00:14:37.778 --> 00:14:38.888
And it's compelling.
00:14:39.098 --> 00:14:42.218
You know, they, they're seeing
the way which this, this Jesus
00:14:42.218 --> 00:14:45.356
shaped community, know, it is this
beautiful and wonderful thing.
00:14:45.746 --> 00:14:46.076
Annemarie: Yeah.
00:14:46.076 --> 00:14:50.336
And I can see how like there
is such a close association
00:14:50.336 --> 00:14:51.386
between those two things.
00:14:51.386 --> 00:14:56.876
So like, it is, the church can
exist just to exist, just to be the
00:14:56.876 --> 00:14:58.796
beautiful thing that God made it to be.
00:14:58.796 --> 00:14:58.856
Yeah.
00:14:59.306 --> 00:14:59.636
Um,
00:14:59.731 --> 00:15:00.451
Al: 'cause God wants it.
00:15:00.626 --> 00:15:01.196
Annemarie: Yes.
00:15:01.196 --> 00:15:01.206
Yeah.
00:15:01.466 --> 00:15:01.766
Yeah.
00:15:01.766 --> 00:15:03.236
And it is for his glory.
00:15:03.296 --> 00:15:03.931
Um, and this is.
00:15:04.901 --> 00:15:08.591
Like in his sovereign purpose,
the way he has decided to work.
00:15:08.951 --> 00:15:15.731
Um, but also when that happens, then
evangelism is the natural outflow like
00:15:15.791 --> 00:15:20.021
people do see and are attracted and
do come in and join the family of God.
00:15:20.111 --> 00:15:20.411
Al: Yeah.
00:15:20.411 --> 00:15:25.291
And Chase Coon talks about, , how the
church gathers and it scatters as well.
00:15:25.291 --> 00:15:29.401
And so, you know, some, one thing
that's similar to what you're saying
00:15:29.401 --> 00:15:31.009
there is that when the church gathers.
00:15:31.009 --> 00:15:34.399
, And it, it's the gathered people
of God and then it scatters and it
00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:38.749
brings the gospel that it's heard
as it gathers to the people around.
00:15:39.019 --> 00:15:42.199
And that's a really beautiful
picture in, in Chase's work.
00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:46.249
Um, but the other, the other aspect of
it is, as we've just been sort of talking
00:15:46.249 --> 00:15:51.229
about, is that when it's gathered in some
ways, that is also evangelistic, even
00:15:51.229 --> 00:15:53.419
without the purpose of being evangelistic.
00:15:53.809 --> 00:15:55.909
Um, which is a really
precious and beautiful thing.
00:15:56.139 --> 00:15:56.499
Annemarie: Mm-hmm.
00:15:57.009 --> 00:16:01.479
And it sort of leads me to the question
of like, is evangelism a team sport?
00:16:01.539 --> 00:16:05.319
Like something we do together as God's
people, or is it an individual sport?
00:16:05.769 --> 00:16:08.229
Um, but the thing is it can be both.
00:16:08.229 --> 00:16:08.289
Yeah.
00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:13.059
Um, which does again, clarify that
distinction a little bit, that the church
00:16:13.089 --> 00:16:14.869
as the gathering of God's people mm-hmm.
00:16:15.204 --> 00:16:19.134
It does is something special in
itself, whereas evangelism can
00:16:19.134 --> 00:16:24.264
happen both as people are gathered
and, and as a team, but also as
00:16:24.324 --> 00:16:26.484
the church scatters and goes out.
00:16:26.724 --> 00:16:27.054
Absolutely.
00:16:27.829 --> 00:16:28.029
Absolutely.
00:16:28.034 --> 00:16:30.354
Uh, but I've got another
question for you though.
00:16:30.384 --> 00:16:35.124
Like, so are we the church when
we go home on a Sunday afternoon?
00:16:35.199 --> 00:16:35.889
Al: Well, yeah.
00:16:35.939 --> 00:16:40.199
, According to the Knox Robinson
kind of articulation of things.
00:16:40.349 --> 00:16:43.189
No, the church is an intermittent thing.
00:16:43.219 --> 00:16:45.499
It's sort of like a
light switch on and off.
00:16:45.499 --> 00:16:47.179
That is when it's gathered the.
00:16:47.464 --> 00:16:52.624
That's when it is church, because it's so,
it's so about the activity of gathering.
00:16:52.984 --> 00:16:56.284
And so when it's not gathering
well, then it actually ceases to
00:16:56.284 --> 00:16:59.134
exist, at least in an earthly sense.
00:16:59.524 --> 00:17:03.364
And so, you know, the earthly
gathering is an intermittent thing.
00:17:03.364 --> 00:17:06.904
It turns on, it turns off, it
gathers, and then it's scatters.
00:17:07.699 --> 00:17:10.549
Annemarie: But I have heard people
talk about the heavenly church.
00:17:10.549 --> 00:17:12.259
What, what are, what is that?
00:17:12.424 --> 00:17:12.904
Al: Yeah.
00:17:12.964 --> 00:17:13.294
Okay.
00:17:13.294 --> 00:17:17.344
So, and that's the point of tension
at this point in our lecture,
00:17:17.344 --> 00:17:19.534
always people are going, how, what?
00:17:20.524 --> 00:17:20.674
No.
00:17:20.764 --> 00:17:22.414
How can the church stop existing?
00:17:22.414 --> 00:17:22.744
Right.
00:17:23.104 --> 00:17:24.754
Well, it doesn't stop existing.
00:17:25.174 --> 00:17:25.504
Okay.
00:17:25.504 --> 00:17:30.154
So, because according to Knox, and
then also Kon, you are not just
00:17:30.154 --> 00:17:32.314
part of an an earthly gathering.
00:17:32.674 --> 00:17:36.034
You're actually also part of
the heavenly church, which is
00:17:36.064 --> 00:17:38.104
always gathered spiritually.
00:17:38.509 --> 00:17:40.639
Okay, so I'm gonna read a a
quote here from Chase Coon.
00:17:40.639 --> 00:17:46.339
He says, for Knox, the presence of Christ
is the constitutive element of the church.
00:17:46.369 --> 00:17:46.579
Okay?
00:17:46.579 --> 00:17:49.699
That's the presence of Christ is
the thing that makes the church.
00:17:49.789 --> 00:17:50.539
Church.
00:17:50.929 --> 00:17:52.489
Christ is seated in heaven.
00:17:52.489 --> 00:17:57.439
Physically and believers are
present there with him spiritually.
00:17:57.979 --> 00:17:59.089
On earth.
00:17:59.449 --> 00:18:04.819
Believers congregate physically and Christ
is present there with them spiritually.
00:18:04.819 --> 00:18:07.489
So we've got this sort of
physical, spiritual kind of
00:18:07.489 --> 00:18:09.349
swapping going on with this.
00:18:09.619 --> 00:18:09.859
Okay.
00:18:09.859 --> 00:18:13.099
So the heavenly church, Christ is
there physically, believers are
00:18:13.099 --> 00:18:17.059
there, spiritually, the earthly
church, Christ is there, spiritually,
00:18:17.269 --> 00:18:18.709
believers are there physically.
00:18:18.876 --> 00:18:19.386
Annemarie: Okay.
00:18:19.386 --> 00:18:22.146
That's a lot to wrap my head around
as well, but I think I'm with
00:18:22.146 --> 00:18:24.413
you so where do we go with that?
00:18:24.953 --> 00:18:28.843
Al: Yeah, it's actually
pretty amazing in some ways.
00:18:28.903 --> 00:18:31.753
Okay, so just another quick quote here.
00:18:31.753 --> 00:18:34.573
So a quick quote which will be also
00:18:34.813 --> 00:18:35.353
Annemarie: meaty.
00:18:35.533 --> 00:18:35.893
Meaty.
00:18:36.223 --> 00:18:38.893
Al: So and so stop me along the way,
Annemarie, if we need to kind of
00:18:39.043 --> 00:18:39.973
define terms, that kind of thing.
00:18:39.973 --> 00:18:42.043
So, , Kun says, therefore.
00:18:42.628 --> 00:18:47.008
If we've got this spiritual and
physical swapping in the Earthly and
00:18:47.008 --> 00:18:51.088
the Heavenly Church, um, he says,
therefore, the expression of the
00:18:51.088 --> 00:18:56.278
heavenly church on Earth is only
ever a local congregation on earth.
00:18:57.208 --> 00:19:02.668
This means that the church on Earth
is intermittent and multi-form in
00:19:02.668 --> 00:19:06.765
contrast to the heavenly church
that is constant and singular.
00:19:06.765 --> 00:19:08.775
Annemarie: Okay, I think I'm with you.
00:19:09.295 --> 00:19:15.595
I think what you mean by intermittent and
multiform is, uh, not always happening.
00:19:16.135 --> 00:19:17.575
Al: So intermittent on, off.
00:19:17.665 --> 00:19:18.175
Annemarie: On off.
00:19:18.205 --> 00:19:18.685
Yes.
00:19:18.745 --> 00:19:22.945
And multiform can be
various shapes and sizes.
00:19:23.020 --> 00:19:24.020
Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:19:24.020 --> 00:19:26.590
And in lots of different
places at at the same time.
00:19:26.800 --> 00:19:26.980
Yes.
00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:28.150
Yeah, absolutely.
00:19:28.570 --> 00:19:29.800
So that's the earthly church.
00:19:29.860 --> 00:19:33.100
Whereas the heavenly church is constant.
00:19:33.100 --> 00:19:34.450
That is, it's not on off,
00:19:35.155 --> 00:19:35.485
Annemarie: it's,
00:19:35.500 --> 00:19:37.000
Al: you know, there's no light switch.
00:19:37.060 --> 00:19:39.670
It's just a glowing
light and it's singular.
00:19:39.700 --> 00:19:40.870
There is only one.
00:19:40.903 --> 00:19:46.123
So we don't have Hoxton Park, we don't
have, you know, um, Rosell, we don't
00:19:46.123 --> 00:19:48.343
have, we've just got the heavenly church.
00:19:48.343 --> 00:19:49.123
It's just the one.
00:19:49.528 --> 00:19:49.858
. Annemarie: All right.
00:19:49.858 --> 00:19:53.328
So what are the implications, , of
this for youth in kids ministry?
00:19:53.463 --> 00:19:53.643
Al: Yeah.
00:19:53.643 --> 00:19:58.743
Well, I mean, I, I guess to say that
the Heavenly Church is singular.
00:20:00.183 --> 00:20:05.433
If it is singular, that is, if there's
only one that's made up of, you know.
00:20:05.968 --> 00:20:09.058
Essentially it's the makeup of all
the different earthly churches.
00:20:09.328 --> 00:20:13.921
If it's singular, and I love
this, it must also be diverse.
00:20:13.921 --> 00:20:14.251
Annemarie: Ooh.
00:20:14.251 --> 00:20:14.761
Okay.
00:20:14.851 --> 00:20:15.721
Tell me more about that.
00:20:16.201 --> 00:20:22.861
Al: Yeah, so, so if, if the heavenly
church is, is, you know, it's,
00:20:22.861 --> 00:20:25.171
there's only one heavenly church.
00:20:25.201 --> 00:20:26.371
It's not multiform.
00:20:26.806 --> 00:20:29.386
It's constant and it's just the one thing.
00:20:29.746 --> 00:20:34.136
Well then it's gonna have, you know,
people, , from Ecuador and it's gonna have
00:20:34.136 --> 00:20:38.886
people from, Australia and it's gonna have
people from Mexico and it's gonna have
00:20:38.886 --> 00:20:42.726
people from China, and it's gonna have
people from Tibet and people from China
00:20:42.726 --> 00:20:46.296
and Tibet are gonna be, you know, like
they're gonna be in fellowship together.
00:20:46.656 --> 00:20:51.126
Um, it's, it's singular
and because it's singular.
00:20:51.636 --> 00:20:52.986
It's diverse.
00:20:53.046 --> 00:20:57.246
And so the diversity of the church is
a really important part of what it is.
00:20:57.516 --> 00:20:57.816
Okay.
00:20:58.086 --> 00:21:02.646
And, um, you know, and so the implications
of this for youth and children's
00:21:02.646 --> 00:21:10.916
ministry is that actually so too,
should we be seeking to express , what
00:21:10.916 --> 00:21:15.266
the heavenly church is that we though
we might be singular in our local
00:21:15.266 --> 00:21:17.816
expression, we also are diverse.
00:21:18.386 --> 00:21:20.546
And so, for example, there's no racism.
00:21:20.546 --> 00:21:20.696
Annemarie: Yeah.
00:21:20.696 --> 00:21:24.296
It reminds me of that, uh, that
little glimpse we get in revelation
00:21:24.296 --> 00:21:26.006
of every tribe and nation.
00:21:26.036 --> 00:21:26.096
Yeah.
00:21:26.576 --> 00:21:29.546
Um, standing together and I
think singing the one song.
00:21:29.816 --> 00:21:30.146
Al: Yeah.
00:21:30.596 --> 00:21:30.956
Annemarie: Yeah.
00:21:31.046 --> 00:21:31.296
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:31.436 --> 00:21:32.036
Al: Amazing.
00:21:32.456 --> 00:21:35.126
And so we wanna celebrate diversity.
00:21:35.636 --> 00:21:41.156
In our youth and children's ministry, , we
wanna celebrate all kinds of diversity.
00:21:41.156 --> 00:21:46.446
Whether that might be, you know,
the, diversity of nations that
00:21:46.446 --> 00:21:50.586
we're representing, or whether it
be the diversity of age ranges.
00:21:50.886 --> 00:21:56.076
And even, I would say we want to be
pointing towards the heavenly church
00:21:56.376 --> 00:22:03.696
in so far as, our age specific youth
ministry, we mustn't see it as the end
00:22:03.696 --> 00:22:08.166
point because there's a limit to the
diversity that we can have in that.
00:22:08.676 --> 00:22:12.956
And so we're looking towards and hoping
that, you know, it can be a fuller
00:22:12.956 --> 00:22:15.776
expression of the diversity that we're
gonna see in the heavenly church.
00:22:16.226 --> 00:22:16.496
Annemarie: Yeah.
00:22:16.496 --> 00:22:20.606
So there is a sense in which
for now, while there is those
00:22:20.696 --> 00:22:25.196
like church into different ways,
like, what's the right word?
00:22:25.361 --> 00:22:26.651
Al: Heavenly and Oh, expressions.
00:22:26.651 --> 00:22:27.061
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:22:27.476 --> 00:22:28.046
Annemarie: of church.
00:22:28.426 --> 00:22:31.766
While there is this, , our present
earthly expression of church
00:22:31.796 --> 00:22:33.476
as well as the heavenly church.
00:22:33.716 --> 00:22:36.986
Like we, like you're kind of suggesting
that we are, we want to be moving
00:22:36.986 --> 00:22:41.546
towards what it will be like in the
heavenly church, even though that
00:22:41.546 --> 00:22:43.736
can only happen to a limited extent.
00:22:43.976 --> 00:22:44.066
Yeah.
00:22:44.246 --> 00:22:45.176
In the here and now.
00:22:45.176 --> 00:22:45.236
Yeah.
00:22:45.296 --> 00:22:51.386
So we, we do welcome people of different,
um, languages and nations and cultures
00:22:51.386 --> 00:22:55.286
and ages, um, because that's what it
will be like in the Heavenly Church.
00:22:55.616 --> 00:22:56.006
Um.
00:22:56.681 --> 00:23:02.051
But obviously that presents different
challenges and um, and we might, you know,
00:23:02.051 --> 00:23:05.651
we might have different congregations
speaking different languages in order to
00:23:05.651 --> 00:23:10.121
accommodate people hearing and responding
and growing, um, as they hear God's word.
00:23:10.121 --> 00:23:10.181
Yeah,
00:23:10.586 --> 00:23:11.306
Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:11.486 --> 00:23:15.716
And so I mean like maybe to summarize
where we're up to now, like we've got,
00:23:15.716 --> 00:23:17.726
the church is created by the word of God.
00:23:17.756 --> 00:23:20.636
It is the gathering of the people
of God around God's word for
00:23:20.636 --> 00:23:22.016
the building up of God's people.
00:23:22.346 --> 00:23:25.736
It's an activity of the people of
God, but it's not the people of God.
00:23:25.736 --> 00:23:27.386
So there's a distinction between the two.
00:23:27.806 --> 00:23:30.866
It gathers and then it
scatters, so it's intermittent.
00:23:31.196 --> 00:23:34.106
And then the heavenly church
is presently gathered.
00:23:34.496 --> 00:23:35.456
It's singular.
00:23:35.861 --> 00:23:39.731
And therefore because it's
singular, it's diverse, and
00:23:39.731 --> 00:23:41.141
just throwing in there as well.
00:23:41.141 --> 00:23:44.801
According to Robinson, the
church's task is not evangelistic.
00:23:45.041 --> 00:23:47.801
Even if evangelism might
happen in the context of what,
00:23:47.831 --> 00:23:49.121
what's going on as they gather.
00:23:50.681 --> 00:23:56.111
Annemarie: And in Coon's paper, um,
he makes some pretty, um, helpful
00:23:56.111 --> 00:24:00.461
observations about what this all
means for age specific ministries.
00:24:00.551 --> 00:24:00.701
Yeah.
00:24:00.731 --> 00:24:05.351
Al: so the first one is that he would
say that age specific ministries
00:24:05.351 --> 00:24:07.631
are valid expressions of church.
00:24:08.111 --> 00:24:09.906
So that's where he lands, is that youth.
00:24:10.541 --> 00:24:17.081
Youth group, kids club, um, you know,
kids, church, um, Bible study, all
00:24:17.081 --> 00:24:18.041
those sorts of different things.
00:24:18.041 --> 00:24:20.651
They are valid expressions of church.
00:24:21.071 --> 00:24:23.771
Um, which I think is a
very significant thing.
00:24:24.041 --> 00:24:26.801
Now, you might agree with that, you
might disagree with that, that's fine.
00:24:26.831 --> 00:24:27.461
Either way.
00:24:27.466 --> 00:24:29.921
You, you know, you gotta
work these things out.
00:24:30.461 --> 00:24:32.981
Um, but Kuhn would say that.
00:24:33.431 --> 00:24:37.511
That, uh, kids club, youth
group, et cetera, age specific
00:24:37.511 --> 00:24:41.261
ministries are valid expressions
of the gathering of God's people.
00:24:42.866 --> 00:24:43.136
Annemarie: Yeah.
00:24:43.136 --> 00:24:47.636
So he might say they're valid expressions,
but perhaps not ideal expressions.
00:24:47.711 --> 00:24:48.221
Al: Exactly.
00:24:48.221 --> 00:24:51.851
That's the second observation that
he makes, is that they're not ideal
00:24:51.941 --> 00:24:56.621
expressions of church, and that's
partly because they are limited as
00:24:56.621 --> 00:24:58.631
to who's kind of allowed to be there.
00:24:59.051 --> 00:24:59.321
Right.
00:24:59.321 --> 00:25:01.361
So, you know, it's age limited.
00:25:01.871 --> 00:25:05.141
Now the heavenly church
is not age limited.
00:25:05.571 --> 00:25:11.181
\ And so we know then that, um, age specific
ministries, because they are exclusive,
00:25:11.541 --> 00:25:13.611
are not ideal expressions of church.
00:25:14.001 --> 00:25:17.181
Um, you know, we are wishing that
they were more diverse than they
00:25:17.481 --> 00:25:19.191
are cer certainly in terms of age.
00:25:19.671 --> 00:25:19.941
Um.
00:25:20.331 --> 00:25:23.901
Now there's lots of good reasons
to not have, you know, anybody
00:25:23.901 --> 00:25:25.161
turning up to a youth group.
00:25:25.161 --> 00:25:27.681
There's lots of good, safe ministry
reasons, all that sort of stuff.
00:25:28.041 --> 00:25:31.581
Um, I should say not to,
not to have just anybody.
00:25:31.791 --> 00:25:33.171
We do want people to be there.
00:25:33.331 --> 00:25:38.071
But, uh, what these things mean is that
even if they are an expression of church,
00:25:38.071 --> 00:25:40.231
they're not an ideal expression of church.
00:25:40.501 --> 00:25:42.721
Um, and so, you know, there's limitations.
00:25:43.651 --> 00:25:43.891
Annemarie: Yeah.
00:25:43.891 --> 00:25:48.451
And to shift, um, to sort of shift the
imagery a little bit, if we think about,
00:25:48.901 --> 00:25:53.101
uh, Tim Bihar's book, uh, the Child in
God's Church, he talks about, you know,
00:25:53.101 --> 00:25:57.811
the three different spheres where, um,
the discipleship of the child can happen.
00:25:57.811 --> 00:26:03.211
So, uh, in the home, in the church
as a whole, but also in age specific.
00:26:03.211 --> 00:26:07.861
And like, there is something lovely about
the way that Tim imagines those three
00:26:07.861 --> 00:26:10.711
spheres working together, like in a sense.
00:26:11.491 --> 00:26:16.891
That wider context helps us to go,
it's okay if it's not ideal for now.
00:26:17.176 --> 00:26:21.496
Al: Yeah, I, and, and I mean,
in some ways, like any church
00:26:21.496 --> 00:26:23.506
service is not an ideal expression
00:26:23.521 --> 00:26:24.031
Annemarie: of church
00:26:24.076 --> 00:26:24.616
Al: anyway.
00:26:24.616 --> 00:26:27.736
And so we're still dealing
with that, that same problem.
00:26:28.006 --> 00:26:32.416
And that's, that's not because it's
closed off, you know, like Sunday
00:26:32.416 --> 00:26:35.866
service is, you know, I don't know
very many Sunday services that say.
00:26:36.186 --> 00:26:39.576
If you are of this age, you can't
come, or if you are of this, if you're
00:26:39.576 --> 00:26:41.016
of this ethnicity, you can't come.
00:26:41.016 --> 00:26:43.926
Like, I don't, I don't really
know of that, um, happening.
00:26:44.496 --> 00:26:49.836
Um, and yet, um, certainly just by the
way that we do things, the preferences
00:26:49.836 --> 00:26:50.886
we have and that kind of thing.
00:26:51.276 --> 00:26:51.636
Um.
00:26:52.021 --> 00:26:57.631
You know, all Sunday services are
less than ideal insofar as they,
00:26:58.321 --> 00:27:01.681
they don't represent every nation,
every age, every tribe, every
00:27:01.681 --> 00:27:02.791
language and that kind of thing.
00:27:03.241 --> 00:27:06.031
And so we're, we're dealing with
the same thing in a Sunday service
00:27:06.031 --> 00:27:09.481
as we might be in a, um, a youth
ministry or a kids' ministry.
00:27:10.771 --> 00:27:14.311
Annemarie: So if that's true, then I
guess I wanna think more about what
00:27:14.311 --> 00:27:19.261
does that mean for our youth groups
and kids' churches and kids' clubs.
00:27:19.321 --> 00:27:19.531
Yeah.
00:27:19.996 --> 00:27:24.346
Al: so I think like the thinking
about Koons two broad observations.
00:27:24.346 --> 00:27:27.376
The first one being, you know
that age specific ministries
00:27:27.376 --> 00:27:29.206
are valid expressions of church.
00:27:30.181 --> 00:27:34.921
Certainly one of the things that that
does is it, it, you know, it's in, it's in
00:27:34.921 --> 00:27:37.741
the description there, it validates them.
00:27:38.011 --> 00:27:40.711
It, it highlights the importance of them.
00:27:41.281 --> 00:27:45.151
Um, and you know, it, it, it
shows the importance of pastoring.
00:27:45.181 --> 00:27:45.961
Annemarie: pastoring,
00:27:46.591 --> 00:27:50.611
Al: You know, groups of young people
that, you know, if they're a congregation
00:27:50.611 --> 00:27:54.211
of the church in a sense, or if they
are a church, you know, like if they're
00:27:54.211 --> 00:27:59.101
a gathering of God's people, well that,
that puts them, you know, it puts the
00:27:59.101 --> 00:28:00.991
task of youth and children's ministry.
00:28:01.781 --> 00:28:04.931
Um, at a very high level
of very high importance.
00:28:05.381 --> 00:28:06.671
Um, so we wanna resource it.
00:28:06.701 --> 00:28:08.921
We wanna be thinking carefully about it.
00:28:08.951 --> 00:28:12.251
We wanna be, you know, moving from
theology to practice, even in youth
00:28:12.251 --> 00:28:17.231
ministry, you know, even in kids' ministry
because it is really, really important,
00:28:17.591 --> 00:28:23.621
um, because young people are according to
Kon, um, when they gather as God's people,
00:28:23.621 --> 00:28:25.451
they are a valid expression of church.
00:28:26.221 --> 00:28:29.191
Annemarie: I think another implication
might be too, the importance
00:28:29.191 --> 00:28:30.691
of keeping God's word central.
00:28:31.081 --> 00:28:34.261
Like again, this might be something
that we assume and is always true,
00:28:34.261 --> 00:28:36.511
and hopefully that's the case, but if.
00:28:37.066 --> 00:28:43.546
Um, church is gathering around God's
word, uh, then and also like through
00:28:43.546 --> 00:28:45.466
the word the church has given birth.
00:28:45.526 --> 00:28:45.646
Yeah.
00:28:45.856 --> 00:28:50.656
Um, it really does mean we need to keep
God's word central in our kids and youth
00:28:50.926 --> 00:28:51.166
Al: Yeah.
00:28:51.226 --> 00:28:55.876
We wanna be doing the things that church
should be doing, um, in our age specific
00:28:55.876 --> 00:28:57.556
ministries if we're gonna take that view.
00:28:58.006 --> 00:29:01.396
Um, and you know, I would argue that
even if you don't take that view,
00:29:01.396 --> 00:29:04.666
there's a good, there's a good reason
to be, to be doing that anyway.
00:29:04.696 --> 00:29:05.446
Annemarie: True, true.
00:29:05.536 --> 00:29:07.816
Al: But I guess it's an, it's
an added safeguard, isn't it?
00:29:08.146 --> 00:29:08.986
Annemarie: Yeah, that's right.
00:29:09.466 --> 00:29:12.496
The other potentially more
controversial question that comes
00:29:12.496 --> 00:29:19.601
up is, uh, if those, those programs
are expressions of church, um.
00:29:20.491 --> 00:29:23.221
Then where does the
evangelism purpose fit in?
00:29:23.221 --> 00:29:27.121
Because there's lots of us, I think, who
would say, oh no, my kids club exists, or
00:29:27.121 --> 00:29:29.761
My youth group exists to be evangelistic.
00:29:30.346 --> 00:29:33.286
Al: Yeah, I mean, and it's a great
question and I think probably drives to
00:29:33.286 --> 00:29:37.456
the heart of, you know, not necessarily
ecclesiology, but one of the really
00:29:37.456 --> 00:29:39.556
interesting dynamics in church life.
00:29:39.931 --> 00:29:45.001
Of, you know, the difference or not,
you know, the but, but the dynamic
00:29:45.001 --> 00:29:47.551
between discipleship and evangelism.
00:29:47.971 --> 00:29:50.581
Um, and, you know, arguably.
00:29:50.956 --> 00:29:55.756
Evangelism is discipleship, but
it's discipleship That's, you
00:29:55.756 --> 00:29:58.276
know, that brings someone to faith.
00:29:58.846 --> 00:30:02.806
And so, you know, the, the, I mean,
one of the things that we often talk
00:30:02.806 --> 00:30:06.886
about is, okay, well, is there, you
know, what, what is discipleship?
00:30:06.886 --> 00:30:10.726
Well, this proclamation of God's
word, um, that people might respond.
00:30:11.401 --> 00:30:11.881
Annemarie: And
00:30:11.926 --> 00:30:12.976
Al: what is evangelism?
00:30:12.976 --> 00:30:15.796
Well, it's the proclamation of God's
word that people might respond.
00:30:16.186 --> 00:30:19.876
Um, what makes it different
is that the who of responding.
00:30:19.876 --> 00:30:23.326
And so there's gonna be contextual
things depending on, on, on all
00:30:23.326 --> 00:30:27.286
sorts of different, you know, um,
factors as to how you go about that.
00:30:27.826 --> 00:30:32.716
Um, but you know, arguably there's,
there, well there is a great degree
00:30:32.716 --> 00:30:36.436
of continuity between evangelism and
discipleship in that, in that regard.
00:30:36.976 --> 00:30:41.146
Um, uh, yeah, so it's, it's a,
it's a really good question.
00:30:41.146 --> 00:30:42.256
So is our.
00:30:42.656 --> 00:30:44.276
Kids club evangelistic?
00:30:44.306 --> 00:30:46.856
Well, I would say if it's, if,
if you're gonna say it's a valid
00:30:46.856 --> 00:30:47.996
expression of church, it is.
00:30:48.391 --> 00:30:48.691
Annemarie: Mm-hmm.
00:30:48.746 --> 00:30:51.326
Al: Even if that's not necessarily
specifically the purpose.
00:30:51.626 --> 00:30:55.856
Um, and even if we do wanna make sure
that we're, we're intentionally reaching
00:30:55.856 --> 00:31:00.566
out to, to young people, um, so that they
might hear the, the gospel and respond.
00:31:00.986 --> 00:31:04.106
Um, but I guess the other, the other
side of, you know, that question about
00:31:04.106 --> 00:31:08.411
evangelism and discipleship is that it
puts a, a, a high if young people are.
00:31:09.286 --> 00:31:14.086
You know, part of a valid expression
of the, the, the of, of the church.
00:31:14.596 --> 00:31:16.666
Um, and if we expect that.
00:31:16.981 --> 00:31:17.311
Annemarie: that
00:31:17.971 --> 00:31:21.451
Al: Christians, people who are
part of the body of Christ might
00:31:21.451 --> 00:31:23.971
also be people that make disciples.
00:31:23.971 --> 00:31:26.941
You know, they're disciples that make
disciples, that they evangelize people.
00:31:26.941 --> 00:31:31.351
Then I guess that makes it really
important that participants in the youth
00:31:31.351 --> 00:31:36.871
ministry as they come to know and love
Jesus, should also be reaching out with
00:31:36.871 --> 00:31:42.151
the gospel as a natural expression of
the, of the authentic discipleship that's
00:31:42.151 --> 00:31:45.536
occurring, because they're a gathering
of the peoples of God, people of God.
00:31:46.261 --> 00:31:46.681
Annemarie: Yes.
00:31:46.681 --> 00:31:48.211
I, I can see what you mean.
00:31:48.451 --> 00:31:49.201
I think, um,
00:31:49.291 --> 00:31:50.521
Al: it's all contested though, right?
00:31:50.701 --> 00:31:51.541
Annemarie: Yes, that's right.
00:31:51.541 --> 00:31:53.281
There are lots of different views on this.
00:31:53.311 --> 00:31:53.371
Yeah.
00:31:53.521 --> 00:31:58.441
And I think, um, those, those final few
questions really highlight the value
00:31:58.441 --> 00:32:00.091
of thinking it through for yourself.
00:32:00.241 --> 00:32:00.331
Mm-hmm.
00:32:00.481 --> 00:32:03.211
Um, and of coming to your
own convictions about that.
00:32:03.211 --> 00:32:03.221
Mm-hmm.
00:32:03.366 --> 00:32:03.586
Um.
00:32:04.446 --> 00:32:06.696
We just wanna talk about
that last one though.
00:32:06.966 --> 00:32:11.826
Um, the implications of, of Koon's
second, um, observation that age specific
00:32:11.826 --> 00:32:14.496
ministries are not an ideal expression.
00:32:14.766 --> 00:32:16.836
What's, what are the implications of that?
00:32:17.086 --> 00:32:17.416
Al: Yeah.
00:32:17.416 --> 00:32:23.656
Well, so if, if kids ministry and youth
ministry are not an ideal expression of
00:32:23.656 --> 00:32:28.126
church, I think there's a, there's two
things, two major things that I think of,
00:32:28.126 --> 00:32:33.826
and you might have more things, Emery,
but the first thing is, is this, that if
00:32:33.826 --> 00:32:38.146
they're not an ideal expression of church,
insofar as they're, they're limited in
00:32:38.146 --> 00:32:42.826
who might turn up, we need to understand
that they're not the end result.
00:32:43.486 --> 00:32:43.876
Annemarie: Um,
00:32:44.086 --> 00:32:47.506
Al: need to, we, you know, they're
not an end, you know, even they're,
00:32:47.566 --> 00:32:49.276
they're a good end in themselves.
00:32:49.576 --> 00:32:53.536
Um, they, they, we, we can't
think that ministry stops there.
00:32:54.161 --> 00:32:54.541
Annemarie: And so
00:32:54.616 --> 00:32:59.176
Al: we, we need to have a high view
of intergenerational discipleship.
00:32:59.476 --> 00:33:03.886
We need to have a high view of
integration into, you know, other.
00:33:04.106 --> 00:33:07.706
Other parts of, and possibly
more permanent parts of,
00:33:08.036 --> 00:33:09.266
um, the body of Christ.
00:33:09.626 --> 00:33:11.066
So it's not a stopping point.
00:33:11.066 --> 00:33:17.036
But the other thing is then that it's
a, um, we want to be looking towards
00:33:17.036 --> 00:33:20.786
the heavenly church in terms of, in
terms of the diversity that we have.
00:33:21.086 --> 00:33:27.116
We want to be, um, doing what we can
in our youth ministry to be open to
00:33:27.146 --> 00:33:31.676
people of other ages, to be open to, you
know, greater expressions of diversity.
00:33:31.676 --> 00:33:35.246
The diversity of God's people,
because we recognize that.
00:33:35.741 --> 00:33:39.281
You know, youth ministry, children's
ministry is not the ideal.
00:33:39.281 --> 00:33:40.421
It's not as good as it could be.
00:33:40.421 --> 00:33:43.901
And so we're open to, to what
might make us more ideal.
00:33:44.831 --> 00:33:44.891
Annemarie: Mm.
00:33:45.251 --> 00:33:49.601
So it makes me think, um, like there
are times when people go, oh, this
00:33:49.601 --> 00:33:53.801
family, uh, they've become involved
in the kids club on Friday afternoon.
00:33:54.131 --> 00:33:57.581
Um, but I can't seem to shift
them to come to church at all.
00:33:58.211 --> 00:33:59.981
And there's, there's tension over that.
00:34:00.041 --> 00:34:01.691
And so in one sense, you say, well.
00:34:02.036 --> 00:34:02.996
It's okay.
00:34:03.386 --> 00:34:05.636
They're hearing, they're
gathering with God's people.
00:34:05.666 --> 00:34:07.016
They're hearing God's word.
00:34:07.346 --> 00:34:07.946
There is.
00:34:08.036 --> 00:34:09.476
Um, that's okay.
00:34:09.896 --> 00:34:14.096
But at the same time, yes, it is good
and right to want to see them progress,
00:34:14.096 --> 00:34:19.916
to meet with, um, the, like, the more
comprehensive expression of God's people
00:34:19.916 --> 00:34:22.406
on a Sunday where all ages are gathered.
00:34:22.636 --> 00:34:23.681
Al: For, for two reasons.
00:34:23.766 --> 00:34:24.186
One, because.
00:34:25.076 --> 00:34:27.866
It, it's a more comprehensive
expression of it, as you say, like
00:34:27.866 --> 00:34:31.886
it's a more ideal, potentially, usually
a more ideal expression of church.
00:34:32.336 --> 00:34:36.326
Um, but secondly, because of the,
because of the temporary nature
00:34:36.326 --> 00:34:39.536
of children's ministry, they will
age out of children's ministry.
00:34:40.136 --> 00:34:43.766
And so, you know, we wanna, we
wanna envelop them in, in a, a
00:34:43.886 --> 00:34:47.696
more comprehensive and permanent
and, and ongoing expression of,
00:34:48.056 --> 00:34:51.296
um, of the people of God, uh, of
the gathering of God's people.
00:34:52.466 --> 00:34:56.546
Annemarie: Alright, well my brain is
full and so like, let's wrap this up.
00:34:56.636 --> 00:35:00.776
I think a good thing to do at this point
would be to go back to our thinking
00:35:00.776 --> 00:35:03.206
formula, um, our thinking framework.
00:35:03.206 --> 00:35:07.406
And it might be helpful for you just to
reflect on like what is the, what are the
00:35:07.406 --> 00:35:12.386
particular biblical truths that you've
been reminded of or may have freshly, um.
00:35:12.806 --> 00:35:14.726
Seen or appreciated in a new light.
00:35:14.756 --> 00:35:16.886
Like what are the new aspects of that?
00:35:17.276 --> 00:35:20.816
Um, and then what are the implications
for that for you, for your practice?
00:35:20.846 --> 00:35:23.846
Um, does it change the way that you
think about one of your ministry
00:35:23.846 --> 00:35:27.986
areas or does does it potentially
change something that you are doing?
00:35:29.396 --> 00:35:30.836
Thanks for sharing with us, Al.
00:35:31.061 --> 00:35:31.656
Al: Yeah, it's been good.