speaker-1: ⁓
speaker-0: Hello and welcome back to Take Back Your Authority with Heather Boltheis. ⁓ I'm so grateful that you're here with me today and my guest, ⁓ who I'll introduce to you in just a moment. But let's go ahead and open up in prayer and then we'll get started. So, dear Lord, I just thank you for this day. Thank you for Laura that she's able to come and ⁓ speak her wisdom to ⁓ my audience as well, and ⁓ just speak in us, give us your words, your wisdom and your discernment, and ⁓ guide us as we go through ⁓ this episode. Amen. All right. Okay. So today's conversation is actually very a very important one. We are talking about something that many people are walking through silently. Something that can slowly steal your identity, your confidence, and your sense of self if you don't recognize it. So, and that is narcissist abuse and more importantly, how to break ⁓ free from it and to take back your authority. And so I'm honored to introduce my guest, Laura. Who is also my friend? ⁓ we met probably, I don't know, five, six years ago. And ⁓ I love that she's doing this work, and I'm so grateful to have her on my show. So ⁓ today I'm joined by Laura Richards, who is a narcissist abuse recovery expert. ⁓ Laura is an an international podcaster, a number one bestselling author and speaker dedicated to empowering women through her global podcast. That's where I'm at, and her best selling book. married to the nice guy, getting over narcissist narcissistic abuse. And ⁓ Laura also shares her personal journey of recovering from 32 years of marriage to a narcissist. And her mission is simple and but powerful to shine a light on narcissist abuse and to let women know they are never alone and that healing is always possible. So Laura, welcome to the podcast. I'm so honored to have you here. I'm so glad
speaker-1: Thanks for having me, Heather.
speaker-0: Yes, yes, yes. So Laura, for someone hearing your story for the first time, who are you, ⁓ who are you and what led you to this work?
speaker-1: ⁓ you know, I'm just someone who got divorced after thirty-two years of marriage for irreconcilable differences. And then I became an accidental expert. A few months later, I started to unravel ⁓ lies and betrayals. And ⁓ all of a sudden I got to be an expert in narcissistic abuse. I did not plan for this. It just happened. I think I had said the word gaslighting, and so the algorithm started showing me things. So
speaker-0: F
speaker-1: But what happened was it explained everything that had been going on. ⁓ you know, I was in a marriage where I didn't understand why we couldn't get along. I also didn't I'm like, Well, how why did we get divorced? Like, why couldn't we figure it out? Like what what was the problem? Well, I was married to someone who was actively not trying to work anything out, you know, they're talking out both sides of their mouth. So, ⁓ I just became an accidental expert and decided that ⁓ Keeping quiet only protects abusers and I don't protect abusers. And so ⁓ started talking. ⁓ never say his name. I just you know, it's just insert your clown here. And ⁓ I just I speak about it to warn the others because I was in it for 33 total. And as a Gen Xer, you know, this is the information that we need because we were not taught this and we've been societalized. ⁓ we you know, to the fairy tale and sweeping you off your feet and your Prince Charming and all that. And it's like those things are all well and good. ⁓ but there are dangers in that. And ⁓ we weren't taught that. So so that's that's the story in a nutshell.
speaker-0: Very good. So you were married for thirty two years and what did that look like at the beginning? I mean, were there any signs? Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: Now looking back, I see them all. You know, the thing is is that okay, so we were friends in college and we we were both dating other people. And so we we became fast friends. We all there was a group of us that hung out together. And the thing is, is that once like I broke up with my boyfriend, he broke up with his actually fiance, ⁓ you know, not for any reason for ⁓ each other, but it was soon after we were dating and he was like, Well, we've been friends, look, maybe we should date. And that's okay, so looking back, that's a red flag because there's a grooming process, okay? Because narcissists always have the next one waiting. Well, that was me. So when he broke up with his ex, ⁓ with his fiance, you know, who was my friend as well, we actually are still in touch. ⁓ you know, I was there waiting. I was ready to go because he had groomed me to be the next one. You know, I didn't know. I didn't know any of this stuff. I just thought, Somebody's paying attention to me. And I had that deep longing to be loved and wanted and ⁓ to get married and have kids and you know, 'cause I didn't want to be a spinster at twenty and get something.
speaker-0: twenty. I know. That shows our age, right?
speaker-1: That's all ridiculous. No. I just always was like, ⁓ I want to get married and have kids at 20. I just that's what I envision. I'm like, for Pete's sake, I don't even have a full brain. You know, so the though there was never any well, okay, I'm not gonna say never. There was never really any yelling, but there was a lot of coercive control. So this is something that we're all learning about now. Coercive control is like the subtle, you know, constant. manipulation, gaslighting, all that to get you to do things. Right. Make you feel a certain way. To help the you know, gaslighting makes you question your own reality and makes you question your own thoughts. And so that's what I started seeing. Like looking back, did I see those? You know, looking back, I see them. D then no, didn't see one thing. Didn't see a thing. Because I believed that if someone had something Like if they said you're kind of difficult, you should really work on this thing. I would be like, ⁓ well, thank you for telling me that. And I will take it upon myself to fix that. Right. ⁓ no. You need to have your own introspection to say, like, do I really do that? Am I really that way? Or is this filtering through their own, you know, discomfort or whatever it is? So I didn't know any of that. I was young and also not taught that. So I didn't have the skills and I did that.
speaker-0: No.
speaker-1: I did that for decades and really that's what I was taught growing up. I unraveled all fifty-five years of my life when I got divorced. I did not unravel just the thirty-three I was with him. We're just gonna take it down to the studs and figure it all out.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. So you talk about gaslighting. So what are some examples of somebody the gaslighting or what or what are some signs that tell that someone is a narcissist?
speaker-1: So, you know, the I this is not from like if they were gonna go get diagnosed, but it's a high need of control and a really big lack of empathy. Plus, you add on to that that they have a really big need for admiration from you and others. So then you add okay, so then the gaslighting is that this is meant to throw you off and cause chaos and cause confusion. So a lot of women I talk to, and myself included, We just walked around going, I just feel crazy. Like I swear he said this or I swear this happened and he's telling me it didn't. And this is your partner, right? This is that you decide to spend your life with. ⁓ even someone who's dating gaslighting will throw you off immediately. It's a lot of that's not what I said. You're so sensitive. You know, like they'll put you down or whatever, the backhanded compliments. You know, that's the subtle ways. ⁓ and you're so sensitive. And then you go, you try to correct and be like, ⁓ yeah, maybe I am a little sensitive. That's how I was, and that's how I know a lot of people are. Cause people say, like, why didn't you leave at the first red flag? I'm like, the first red flag did not look red. The first red flag was very like, Well, you're being a jerk. Why'd you say that? You know what I mean? Like Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so then you have the other side of like, Why'd you give up so easily? You know, like that kind of thing. So so
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: And that that mo what was modeled to me was years and years of being married, you know, decades. His parents are still married. My parents were married till the end. And they were together 60 years. And so it's like that's what was modeled to me. And unless you were being hit, it wasn't abuse because and that that's that's what we were taught. So gaslighting and all the manipulation, the high need for control.
speaker-0: I'm trying to
speaker-1: It just is meant to throw you off and make you question yourself, make you question everything. And you will walk on those eggshells to make sure everything is good in your house. And, you know, maybe if you're in systems like say a religious system that is like really promoting that, you know, like being a good submissive wife or whatever, and we're we're never called to be an abuse. You know, that's biblical. It's in the Bible about yeah, that you don't have to stay for abuse. It's like more than that. And And so there's so many messages coming to you. And for me, I was in the, you know, the church for 27 years. I replaced the Holy Spirit's voice with his voice. That's what I wanted to hear was how will I please my husband? Didn't matter what God was saying. It was like, How can I please my husband? And so that you can gaslight yourself. That's what I learned to do. He didn't he treat me, you know. So and I hear that from so many people.
speaker-0: Yeah, so at what point did you finally say I can't keep living like this anymore? Were you the one that that initiated the divorce or was he or how did that
speaker-1: Yeah. So kind of. And this is this is part of the narcissistic ⁓ discard and everything is, you know, I I was going to therapy ⁓ because he said I was such a terrible person. And ⁓ so if you can believe it, I was grieving that my mother had died. So he was like So they have a very like it's not even a lack of empathy. It's like straight out apathy. Like they and so he said, you know, I think there's something wrong with you. So i I got Sent to therapy. And listen, that's where I found my voice. And what I started to realize as I was healing was, am I doing this for 40 years? For 40 more years? Am I gonna keep doing this? Because it sounded exhausting. And I also didn't think I would survive it. And he was barely talking to me and all that. So as part of the discard. He for the last couple of years of our marriage, he'd like made a sweeping announcement. He wasn't gonna be intimate with me anymore and I had to beg for it and all yes. I mean, like, it's like they're amazing. Just say the words, I want to get a divorce. But they won't because they have to be the victim. You have to be the bad guy. Despite the fact that they've dri driven you to the brink of insanity. And and so he really just like was barely talking to me and ramping up.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: you know, inappropriate behavior with other women, things like that. And so he came into the room and asked me if, you know, he's like, if this is the way our life is going to be, you should tell me you're done. So all immediately throw it to me. You should tell me you're done. And I was like, why do I have to say it? And then he's like, you're right. I'm just not brave enough to say it. And I said, you know what? I am done. So that's called the reverse discard. They push you to the edge so that you do it.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Because they're talking bad about you behind the scenes with their flying monkeys already. This campaign. Maybe they've already been talking bad about you, which I suspected. But then my grown children said, ⁓ yeah, he that's what he's yeah. He's telling everybody you gave up on the marriage. And I'm like, did he forgive forget to tell everybody? Yeah, we drove me insane and the way he did me and that he had a girlfriend. Like, did he forget all that that part? Yes. They're gonna play the victim till the very end. And we're gonna be to blame. So you can be discarded, you can be reverse discarded, whatever. And what I teach when I'm talking to women is like we don't care what they say about us and what they did because they wanna be the victim and we have to learn how to get over what's being said behind our back. ⁓ we have to work on our internal validation, right? We can't be worrying about that external validation from others. We have to work on that, which w which has been broken down. So we're we'll work on that. Yeah.
speaker-0: 'Cause they always want to look like the nice guy, right? Always. They always want that validation. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: ⁓ the hero and every yeah. Yeah, he was serving the homeless and all that kind of stuff. So it was like you look like the greatest person ever.
speaker-0: Yeah. So what are some common traits that, you know, narcissistic traits of a narcissist that people overlook?
speaker-1: Well, it's hard because when they're a covert narcissist. So we have ⁓ okay, we can just do two kinds, covert and overt. So overt, really out there saying, I love myself, everything I do is great. You know, see those people often on movies or in the public eye or in political figures who are like, I love myself and everything I do is great. That's when you that's sometimes what we think of as a narcissist. But then you have covert kind, which is what I dealt with, is out in public, he was like So generous, serving the homeless. Everybody loved him. He thought he was so great. And that's why I named my book, Married to a Nice Guy, you know, because everybody thought he was so nice. And then he would come home, and it was just like the silent treatment and ⁓ backhanded compliments, the gaslighting, you know, making you feel like it's so chaotic. Like the garage door would go to would open after work and I'd be like on edge. That's the walking on eggshells. It's that kind of thing. You never really have peace because you're waiting for the other shoe to drop. Even if there's no physical violence, it's just ⁓ a constant psychological violence that and you walk on eggshells. So those are the things. If you are that if you know what walking on eggshells is, you're that anxious when if you hear that garage door open or you hear the keys in the door and you jump, listen. There might be something going on that you need to look at.
speaker-0: Yeah. So why do so many strong, intelligent women stay in these relationships?
speaker-1: Yeah. Well listen, they like us strong and intelligent because they do actually mirror us. So that's why so many people are it's so wild. Like anybody can fall prey to this, but they really like those strong, intelligent women that they can mirror. They can like they're like some sort of monster that really they they need a supply, right? Yeah. And we stay because we are conditioned and psychologically manipulated to stay. Because we have intermittent reinforcement and then intermittent abuse. So the times when they're abusing us and then they're like, ⁓ I'm so sorry, please forgive me, I'll never do it again. Then that gives us a chemical reaction. So our abuser is also our soother. And we now are chemically bonded. And it that's why it's hard to leave. That's why people go back, because that's what happens. It's that trauma bond. You can break it, but it's one of the hardest things that we have to work on because we just our brain is chemically attached to them.
speaker-0: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. And so would you say that this type of abuse attacks a person's identity and sense of authority in their own lives?
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, for sure, because you know, you don't even really know who you are. You don't you don't know. And and at the beginning, maybe you were like an artist or a singer or something and and they just thought it was the greatest thing ever, or maybe even just anything. ⁓ I love all the fun pictures you post on social media, things like that. But then as time goes on, like very little time, they start breaking you down immediately. I hate that you sing. I hate that you leave to go sing. And you You're not with me anymore. And so everything becomes a problem. So what happens is you slowly are having your identity chipped away. And now you become a shell of a human. You are molding yourself and shape shifting yourself to be whatever they need you to be so that you can keep peace in your relationship. And it's heartbreaking. And so that's something that we really have to work on after because you may I mean for me, my gosh, I I re like I had to reevaluate my entire fifty five years and like, who really am I? And my God for my therapist who was like, Yeah, when people ask you to go do something, go do it and see if you like it. And I was like, ⁓ that's an idea. You know.
speaker-0: Well that was a huge blessing in disguise, right?
speaker-1: Sure. Yeah. I mean I of course you don't feel like it is, but then I had friends who are healthy and had been through this or like, Yay, you get to, you know, become someone new or you get to figure out who you are and I'm like Okay, I'll try to look at it as positive.
speaker-0: Well, I mean, if you hadn't gone to therapy, you maybe not had found realized what was going on. Yeah. Yeah. So what it what was the hardest part of breaking free?
speaker-1: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, the you know, the hardest part was the trauma bond, which was how did I hate him and love him at the same time? That was the hardest part. Because I really truly loved him. And, you know, until I started finding out about all his lies, I loved him and I was like, I don't understand why we got a divorce. Like I don't get it. Like I just don't understand why we couldn't make it work out. So then when I started to unpack the lies, I was like, ⁓ my gosh, and my poor brain. My poor brain didn't jump on board right away. My poor brain was still in a trauma bond going, Hey, do we have a husband? And I'd be like, No brain, we don't have a husband. So we it and so you are going through that trauma bond. You're like withdrawing from this person. So that was the hardest thing. ⁓ I when I had a name for my pain and the cycle of abuse and all the things that are going on, it was For me, I'm such a lifelong learner and so type A that I was like, ⁓ this is the reason why this is happening. And that that just made so much sense to me and it helped me to stop the pain immediately. No, but it but it helped me on my healing journey. So yeah, the trauma bond, that was the hardest. That's for sure.
speaker-0: Yeah. And when you say like he the lies, was he lying to you about stuff or or just lying to other people about you?
speaker-1: You know, everything. Like there were so many. Yeah, I think back to like this is the dumbest thing, Heather. Like, I remember okay, he would lay in bed, but he had an iPad and he would read library books, like on you know, on on his iPad all the time. Like he was an avid reader. And then like we would be at parties and he'd be like, ⁓ I just haven't had a lot of time to read lately. And I'd be like, I don't understand. So it was weird to me. I'm like, Why would you even lie about something? Why did you say that? He's like, Well, just don't really have a lot of time to read. And then literally we'd get in bed and he'd open up this book. I was like So it was I don't know what it is, but they just have a compulsion, I guess. I don't know. But it yeah, it was all the time. I've unraveled, look, I'm still unraveling things every once in a while when I'm I'm writing another book. And so when I'm writing, my brain goes, ⁓ was that a lie? Was really ⁓ That place, did he really do that? Is that let me tell you, I unraveled something just a couple months ago and I was like, ⁓ my gosh, that was a lie too. Like so dumb things, dumb things that don't make any sense. Why do you have to lie about it? Why? I don't know.
speaker-0: Well yeah, if you're a compulsor c compulsive liar, you don't even know what's true and what's not, right?
speaker-1: Well and also like our default is not to lie, right? Well your default is Heather, but
speaker-0: Right. I mean I yeah, I tell the truth. Right. Probably to a fault sometimes, but
speaker-1: Right, exactly. Because some people say, like, ⁓ my gosh, it must be exhausting to be them. Like it's not because think about what our default is. Our default is we maybe, you know, we go through life not lying. And also we go through life ⁓ with other people, like caring for them. We walk through this world like thinking about others, right? Yeah, I'm assuming you do too. I know I know enough about you, right? And so they don't have that as a default. Their default is lying and lying, cheating, stealing. You know, like that's their default. And so that it's not a problem for them. Like just like it is for us to wake up and it's not a problem for us to walk through this world with joy or not lying. Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: Yeah, interesting. Yeah. So I know it's hard for us to fathom 'cause our mind like you said, our mind doesn't even go there. So it's like
speaker-1: that that's exactly what I had to unravel because I'd sit there and go, I wouldn't do this. That's why you that's why you can't put logic to this because it's illogical. They they they don't admit to any wrongdoing. My ex told me he was doing nothing wrong. And ⁓ and I just had to whatever. Like if you have a problem with me, go to therapy. And I'm like, okay. And so I did. And that's her that's my point. So thank you very much.
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ my gosh. So, ⁓ you know, what what are like the first steps? If someone's recognizing that their h their spouse or whatever is this person, what is the first one of the first steps they can do to, you know, I hate to say get out of the relationship, but you know, I mean, you need to protect yourself as well.
speaker-1: Yeah, you do. I mean, you can try to stay, but it's impossible because you can become a shell of a person and it still won't be good enough. So you really have to save yourself. But you know, the thing that's going to save you is like decentering them and starting to work on your boundaries. So boundaries choosing yourself now. ⁓ that is going to be a problem for many of them. And they're going to be like you're going to start seeing their They'll pull back and things like that. ⁓ it's really horribly sad because but listen, yes, we're dedicated to our marriages and all that, right? But we don't want to try and salvage a relationship with an abuser because we're worth more than that. ⁓ and so that's the really hard part. I have tons of resources for ways to escape and all that, because you have to do it very quietly. You don't like announce, I think you're me. And you know, you don't do that because Because like one of my guests on on my show, h he didn't hit her until like I forget how many, like let's say ten years in. Do you know what I mean? So it's like we wanna be cautious all the time. And so, you know, setting boundaries and starting to work on your self worth, which I was doing, not the boundaries part, but the self worth part. Yeah. I just forgot to I was helping other people with their self worth. I forgot to do it for myself, you know. But those are the things we need to work on.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And they probably won't like it and you can talk to them, but don't go to therapy if you think you are in abuse because ⁓ there's an imbalance of power and he or they will n you know, ⁓ gaslight the therapist oftentimes and then make you the problem.
speaker-0: So don't go to couples therapy, go on your own.
speaker-1: therapy. ⁓ yes. Yes. Don't go to couples therapy. If you think there's any of this is resonating with you, do not go to couples therapy because you will be the problem and it's just gonna be a waste of time. They're gonna look like hero that they brought in their poor, crazy wife that really needs help. And now you're trying to explain away something that's not true.
speaker-0: Yeah, I it's like what you mentioned about the ten years in too, because I'm thinking if if you say something pretty bold, then that could become a problem as well.
speaker-1: Fight. Exactly. And that's why we we do it strategically and quietly. And so there's an escape plan on my website. Just even even if you call like if you if any of this is resonating, if you call the domestic violence hotline, just to talk to them, that's you don't have to do anything. It's just to talk to them. Because it you can't it's you can't stay. You can't stay. Not in be safe and ⁓ not and really have a relationship. What's the point? Some people are like, I'll just run off the clock. What? That doesn't even make sense. You know, like like we have so much time left. Especially like the women I work with in midlife. It's like, no, we still have tons of time left. We're not doing what's done.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm sure it's hard. I mean, you think about financially and and all that too, you know, that's gotta be tough for, you know, a lot of women to think about that too, you know.
speaker-1: Yeah, of course. And so yeah, I have tons of resources on my website with those kinds of things 'cause that always comes up. So tons of coaches, tons of ways to make money on your own if you've been a stay at home mom and you haven't really had a career. or ⁓ you know, maybe you gave up your career, which is very common. So
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. So after the abuse, how what does it look like to take back your authority after you've gotten out?
speaker-1: ⁓ my gosh, it's amazing. It's like you can breathe again. So I you know, at first it was very like I was saying before, like kind of scary and ⁓ who am I and what am I gonna do? But then to be able to walk in this world and say, like these I get to make my own choices and I get to decide what I'm going to do with my life. And who do I wanna be when I grow up? That's what I always say. Who do I want to be when I grow up? Because You know, if you've been in abuse, you've had somebody not supporting you, telling you, No, you can't do those things, you know. No, people are lying to you when they say you're a good speaker or whatever it is, right? Yeah. And you know, whatever those negative things that they're saying to you. And so, you know, taking back your authority looks like unraveling all that and really like standing in your power and being like, No, I I can do this. And if I don't know how to do it, I will ha find somebody who can help me. I will look up a video. I will learn how to do it. And there's such a a beautiful freedom. You know, we're not meant to to live in such, you know, bondage. We're meant to be free to be able to do like why do only some people get to do whatever they want to do? No, we should all be able to do that. So yeah, it's been ⁓ it's been amazing. I feel very empowered ⁓ doing what I'm doing because, you know, shame is broken. In community and in conversation. When we talk about things like this, when we bring it to the light, immediately shame is broken. And ⁓ we shouldn't be walking around in shame. We're not we shouldn't be ashamed. You know, there are the ones that should be ashamed of what they're doing.
speaker-0: Yeah. So speaking of community, how important it is it to have community during this time? Well, always, but in particular.
speaker-1: Yeah, well, 'cause I felt very alone. And until I started saying things, ⁓ that you know, I started saying things on social media and now I have a a private support group. People come into the group and even in my DMs on my social media, people say, like, ⁓ thank God you're doing okay. Or I was so happy I found your page because now I know I'm not alone. And that's what it does, right? It's that community and conversation. It's to know you're not alone because I really felt really alone, really ashamed. ⁓ people around me were like, ⁓ don't talk about it. And then I started to understand, what? So I I started to understand that that not talking about it protects the abuser and I don't protect abusers. And so I want other women to know they're not alone and there's still hope. And that's that's the biggest thing, especially for I've met women who are in, you know, who are married as long as I was, married longer than I was. And you know, feel hopeful when they come to my page and see like, ⁓ gosh, okay, so this is normal and this is, you know, and I can do this and simple things. Simple things like choosing the color of your next couch, you know, or the paint on your walls or what you want to eat for dinner. I had a friend who I asked her to pick out a salad dressing for something and she's like, I've never been allowed to choose. I have no idea what I like. And so those little steps, it just that's how we take back our authority, right? I mean, it's like just those life choices. And let me tell you, you feel so empowered as you're walking through and then understanding that other people are going through the same thing and it's it's normal and you're gonna be okay.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think that's with anything, right? We all think that we're the only ones with problems. And it's like everybody has problems. But we just don't see it 'cause they're not telling us. Yeah.
speaker-1: thing, you know, and especially like I don't know about you, but like sometimes in church, you know, like sitting in church and, you know, sometimes we put on our Sunday smile and and and that's hard because once we started like I had a women's table at my group. Once I started talking about things, let me tell you, like all the women had been involved ⁓ I went through that. I went through that. And what can happen then is they rallied around me. And then you can ⁓ I can talk to this person about this and I can talk to that person. And so you're not alone. And so finding a safe group to be in, ⁓ really anything. I mean you have sometimes have to test the water with some of your friends. Yeah, ⁓ I've just went through this. And some of them will be like, ⁓ okay. And you know, they they don't want to they may not be ready. It's all everybody's comfort level. And then I had other friends who sat across from me and said, like, tell me everything. Tell me every feeling you're having and everything happening, you know. And I'm thankful for all of those friends that you know taught me. Taught me everything.
speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. So, you know, what does healing look like, you know, after ⁓ we talked about that. We just talked about that. Sorry. ⁓ but what so speaking about just having the community and so forth, but you know, a church, but what does forgiveness play in the healing? Are you able to forgive the spouse? Are you I mean, I personally believe that forgiveness is really healing, but what's your take on that?
speaker-1: Yeah, and yeah, I I can see that. It's a little different in abuse. And so I have I've really been grappling with it. But something I wrote in my book that I really liked was I had read this somewhere, that if you don't feel okay, two things. We do not have to forgive to start our healing. Okay. We don't have to forgive first for our healing to start. That's what I believe. ⁓ because sometimes people will be like, I can't even start healing because I haven't forgiven him. And Forgiveness might not come right away. I know it's for us, but when you've been in abuse, it just feels a little different. And so this is what I have learned and what I have read that I enjoyed and really resonated with that sometimes the healing happens and then forgiveness comes along for the ride. And so it's doesn't have to be like one thing and then the next.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: You know what I mean? Yeah. ⁓ it wasn't like one event and then this. Because I did go through this this ⁓ forgiveness event ⁓ at a church. And I'll tell you, I got in my car and was like, No, I'm not for no, I don't you know what I mean? Because at the core was really what was true. ⁓ and so when I started reading more about that, because there's a lot to unravel. It really is a lot to unravel. Does
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Do I hold any hatred? Does it control me? No. But I really like that idea as as you're healing, forgiveness comes along for the ride. And I don't think that you have to forgive him. And I say him because that's the majority of abusers are male. You don't have to forgive him to start your healing. Cause that might hold you up. Like if you want to go heal, come back. You know what I mean? Like along with you.
speaker-0: Well, I think too, I think forgiveness thinks that it says what the other person did was okay, which is that is not forgiveness at all. For yes. Yeah. Forgiveness is being able to let it go. But yeah, it's a process. I mean, especially with something that's been on for so long and it's so deep. It's not just like a one time little thing. It's it's a whole process.
speaker-1: Yes. And I think that's why it's been an ongoing thing. And has there been one event of forgiveness? No. Has there been ⁓ there's no control? I don't they're not, you know, I don't think about and I say them because he's married to the person I thought he was messing around with. And so it's like that well, it's not a surprise. Because that's what they do. You know, so if forgiving them, mm. I don't see I like I don't even have the words for you, Heather. But this those are the two things that I have learned as I feel like it comes along for the ride. And then you don't have to forgive to start your healing. Don't wait on your healing, but really keep that in your mind so that it's still part of the process. Whatever that looks like for you, if it's not something that's biblical for you, you know, whatever that looks like for you.
speaker-0: Yeah, and I don't think it's a this or that. I think it's both and. I mean it's they're definitely intertwined together.
speaker-1: Yes, I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. So ⁓ what does it mean for a woman to truly step back into her power after abuse? Yeah. Is there a time is there is there an aha moment or is it just kind of like, ⁓ wait, let me look back. I think I've I think I've gone somewhere or I think I've been feeling I don't know.
speaker-1: Yeah. I mean, I I think it is like an awakening, right? It's like one day you do wake up and you have a little more clarity. When you're not in active abuse, your brain starts to heal. We know that the brain can heal. So that's why we want to do a lot of work ⁓ to heal ourselves and build new neuropathways to heal our brain, which is going to be things like affirmations, prayer, ⁓ new thought patterns, you know, all the different kinds of things, right? And that helps us build ⁓ new thought patterns. So I mean, literally I remember waking up after a few months going, wait a second, I think those are my thoughts. And so that that's the part where you start to see it's like a little awakening. You start to like make little choices and ⁓ I'm gonna go I did ⁓ I did this. ⁓ I like this. And or I don't like that. Why have I always, you know, like whatever this because that's you know, he wanted. And so it's a I think it's a little like awakening, but the biggest thing you'll find is that when you start loving yourself and setting boundaries, because I believe those go hand in hand, you will really see a difference because when someone tries to cross your boundaries, you start to be like, No, that's not who I am anymore. ⁓ I had somebody say to me, Well, you used to allow this. And I'm like, I know.
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓
speaker-1: It was so unhealthy. And I don't and I don't do that anymore. And they're like, ⁓ okay. So
speaker-0: Which probably weird for them to hear, right?
speaker-1: For sure, because you know, the people who benefited from you not having boundaries ⁓ are the people who are not gonna want you to have boundaries. Yeah, and so like sometimes you don't have to have those conversations, but this person was close enough to me where I was like, Yeah, that was so unhealthy. I don't do that anymore. That's who I am. So I think it's a like an awakening. Every day you feel like you get a little more clarity and you get a little more clear on what you want out of your life and who you are.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: And just anything, like the little things you like.
speaker-0: Yeah. So do you think there's different levels of narcissists?
speaker-1: Yeah, I think it is a spectrum, right? ⁓ but I think they all follow the same playbook. ⁓ but yes, I mean some are worse than others, of course. ⁓ you have ones that are a lot more violent. So but you know, the ⁓ we can't really there's not anything you can do with that information other than you have to be careful. Because the ones that are very covert, you know, like I had where he's a nice guy and everybody loved him. You know, it's like the subtle
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: digs and everything, the back and back elements. ⁓ you're being so sensitive, things like that. Those things are unless you are educated, they're hard to see. And that's why we talk about it. That's why I've had videos or people comment, ⁓ my gosh, another level unlocked. Because we don't realize subtle things that are happening around us. So that's why we have to just keep educating ourselves because they're not going to come over to you with a sign that says, Hello, I'm here to abuse you. That's not how They come in like everything you ever wanted. So
speaker-0: Well yeah, and you're you're used to you're you're used to it, right? I mean, especially after thirty two years of marriage, it's like, well, that's just normal. Isn't this just normal?
speaker-1: Being, yeah, he's just being, you know, he's just being a jerk or whatever. He didn't mean it. Yeah, you start to gaslight yourself and easier. I didn't want to look what I say. I don't want to I didn't want to look directly at the sun because if I did, then my entire life would fall apart. And then it eventually did because I had to choose, can I continue to live like this? I couldn't. I knew I deserved and living like that and in so so much sadness, depression. ⁓ Didn't even think he loved me. Didn't even think he liked me. You know, 'cause they can say all day long they love you, but man, I d yeah think he liked he liked me at all. So do I I just started to say, like, I think I deserve more than this and I don't think you like me. So I'm not
speaker-0: I'm sure too there's the guilt and the shame of how did I end up in this relationship and how how did I, you know, go so long? ⁓ which there sh there shouldn't be, but of course that's just our humanness, right? No.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's the first emotion you're gonna have is you're gonna be ashamed because I was like, ⁓ my gosh, how did I not see it? But this is what we have to remember they don't come in as someone saying, I'm gonna abuse. They come in lying to you. They come in like everything you've ever wanted. Yeah, and everything you've been hoping and praying for. That's how they come in. And especially if you said, ⁓ right, you know, like I said, ⁓ I want three kids and I want to do this, and he's like, ⁓ my gosh, I want three kids. So they just start mirroring you right away. So they come in like everything you've ever wanted. And so we you don't have to tell women, ⁓ my gosh, he was lying to you. So of course you you believed him because it was your spouse. So of course you believe him. What are you gonna like are you really do you really love? You know, like you're not gonna be you're not gonna do that. We are trusting the person we're married to. And then it's ever when it's every day you get used to it and then ⁓ No, at some point you probably go, I can't do it. I hope one day you'll stop and go, ⁓ no, I can't do this anymore.
speaker-0: Right. Yeah. I mean I remember I mean I'd never even heard the word narcissist until later on in life. It's like we don't even we never even talked about it. So the fact that this is getting out there, we're talking about it is really important. And I mean I don't even think that they realize that they're that way, right? They do? Okay. Okay. That's can you unpack that?
speaker-1: ⁓ no, they do. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. I'll tell you why, because they don't abuse everybody. They don't they don't go out in public and abuse their boss. They don't abuse the waitress. Now I'm talking about covert because sometimes the malignant overt ones, yes, they are yelling at the waitress and all that. But I'm talking about the covert. They're they don't go out in public and you know, like my kids, it would it's funny, like he'd, you know, my ex would pick up the phone and it would be work and they'd go like, ⁓ dad's got his work voice on. You know, it's like a complete switch right away. So they don't abuse everybody. They abuse who they want to abuse. So they know very much what they're doing. They do they know what they're doing. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: Interesting. Yeah, that's very interesting. So what would you what would you say to looking back now, what would you have said to your younger self to maybe a avoid this or whatever? Yeah, what would you say to your younger self?
speaker-1: Well, you don't have to rush to get married. It's okay to wait. You don't have to rush because that's one of their tactics is to rush into marriage, rush to really lock you down, rush to get you pregnant, things like that so that you're locked down. It's like their ultimate prize, like to get married and have ⁓ you know, get you pregnant. Yeah. You know, and I would have said that and I would have said, you know, you are loved. just as you are. Yeah. Without someone saying that they love you or saying that they're they want you to be their wife. You're loved just as you are. And ⁓ I really didn't I didn't believe that at all. ⁓ I don't know if I would have believed it, thinking back you know would I like to hear it? Yeah. I think I yeah maybe it would have kept me fine. I mean, I have my kids and my granddaughter, so it's hard, right? You know? Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: That's the good thing that came out of it and they're beautiful people and we've had a lot of healing. But ⁓ yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. So did the kids recognize it that he was that way? When they're growing up or at what point did they recognize it?
speaker-1: You know, I don't know when they did, ⁓ but I know that when so our kids were grown when we got divorced, ⁓ twenty nine. And so when we called them and said we were gonna get divorced, ⁓ my my two oldest actually texted me separately and said really proud of you for leaving and how miserable you were. And so they see a lot more than we think they do. ⁓ so they're dealing with a different
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: person, right? They're dealing with their ⁓ you know, abusive dad. Yeah. I'm dealing with an abusive. So so what it looks like, I don't even know. I haven't even unraveled this whole part, but what it looks like is like we put a high demand on the kids for good grades and just different things. And now my kids are always like, you're such a different person. Cause I'm like so relaxed. I'm like, ⁓ you don't do that. ⁓ you don't like that job. Yeah. I guess you should go to another one because life's too short. We're not promised to ⁓ And no, I don't want that. Like they're beautiful people. They are great members of society. You know what I mean? Like they're they're just and they're just wonderful, caring people. And so that's all that's all I wanted. And I also I wanted to have a relationship with them because they were not on my side, whatever that means. You know, growing up, they were really because dad was fun. I was a safe for a lot of years, and you know, and then also I worked in the school district and I was home when they were home. And so I was a disciplinarian and I wasn't as fun. And mom has to make a big deal about everything and that kind of thing. And so yeah. Yeah. So it was they knew I was miserable. And then also they he thinks he's sly, but he he had look, they really it's a very much a mother wound.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And so the they love the attention of other women. And that that was a problem for my kids. They they'd be like, You seem a little too friendly with like so and so or whatever, you know? ⁓ so sometimes they would say things like that. Yeah. And
speaker-0: 'Cause it it goes back from not being loved by their own parents, right? That that's what causes them to kind of become this person.
speaker-1: It's usually it's usually from the mother a lot of times. And yeah, his mom definitely was very cold, lack of really it's like a it's ⁓ emotional neglect. ⁓ and so that's that was the other part that I had a hard time with. It's like you see the reasoning, right? Okay, but I can hold space for that six year old little boy who needed his mommy's love and didn't get it. Yeah. I don't hold I don't hold space for the grown man who could have gotten help instead of abusing and so See, and this is why we need to learn the language because that's cognitive dissonance and you can hold both in the at the same time. See, I didn't know that. I thought, ⁓ he can only hold this six year old little boy and that's it. That's the reason why he abuses. Okay, well, I have I have childhood trauma. Right. I don't go around abusing. I get right. So we can hold we can ha understand both things and go like, ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: That's the reason he does it, but it doesn't excuse it. Doesn't excuse the behavior. So yeah. And so that our brain is fascinating to me. And yeah. Yeah. I again accidental expert. Not on the agenda for my life.
speaker-0: I do not. Yes, yes. Well, I love that we are made, that we can change, you know, we if we become aware, f you know, awareness is what the first step to being able to change, you you know, becoming aware and and even too, like you being married to a nar narcissist, ⁓ being aware becoming aware that that's who he was. 'Cause I mean, did you recognize that before you even went to counseling? Or was it once you went to counseling that you kind of recognized that?
speaker-1: No, I didn't realize for three months after our divorce what what happened was I was starting to get clarity and then someone told me, Hey, I did you see that your ex is dating so and so? And I said, ⁓ my gosh. So what and I was like, No, I didn't know that because I've been on no contact with everybody. So my kids knew right away. My kids knew because he started dating her immediately. So my kids knew right away. My kids knew I was on no contact and they also knew That I would have a mental breakdown if I found out. And I agree, I did anyway. ⁓ to be like flippant about it, but I I really did. I really had a a little bit of a breakdown about that. Because listen, somebody you've been with years and then they've been lying and and I kept saying, like, I think there's something going on with you guys. I don't like it. And he'd be like, There's nothing going on. Okay, well, they're married now. ⁓ you mean it's like a liar, you know what I mean? And so that was really damaging. That was really hard. And so I did not know anything about narcissistic abuse. But because the internet was showing me things, because I was starting to see, you know, because I said gaslighting. And so I think the internet was like, here you go, here's some I saw a video and that was it. And then when I found out about her, I put the puzzle pieces together and that was it. That was it. I started voraciously reading and trying to understand and And then just people came out of the woodwork. I started talking about it and people came out of the woodwork to say, Hey, did you know my first marriage was abusive? And I'm like, No, because we don't talk about it. And so and these are people that I'd known for a lot of years in church and friends, dear friends that I didn't know marriages were abusive. And this is how we break that shame, right? We talk about it, we bring it to the light, and then other people can know and then ⁓ maybe other people won't be in it for as long as I was.
speaker-0: Yeah, like Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it is too the generation that we grew up in, you know, it was like get married. I was married at twenty twenty one. Yeah, how old was it? Twenty one or twenty two. ⁓ my husband was twenty. He was, you know, just gonna be twenty one. And ⁓ you know, we're still we are still married. But ⁓ yeah, it's like I look back and I'm thinking, you know, at the time I'm like, ⁓ I'm old enough, I graduated college, I know what I'm doing, and it's like, ⁓ my gosh, you know. So at least this generation, you know, they're waiting a little longer. Waiting a little longer to get married. I think they know a lot more, you know, there's a lot more out there.
speaker-1: No. Yeah, and I really like the discussions they're having 'cause I listen to my kids talking and I'm like so proud of them. Like the way they talk about things and and it's just they're a lot more open. I just I felt look, I grew up my mom was born and my mom and dad were born in the thirties. So there was a lot of shame whenever that mom had some childhood trauma and there was a lot of shame around it. And so that was sort of how I was raised, right? kind raise a here's some shame for you, you know. And I didn't like that and I didn't want to raise my kids like that. But then not understanding, you know, like we still didn't have the internet until I don't know how long.
speaker-0: Twenty nineties, but it really wasn't like it is today. Yeah.
speaker-1: I mean, I'm even thinking about social media. You know what I mean? Like it's like twenty years after I got married, the social media and I always I'm very thankful that I didn't have social media 'cause I didn't comparison, you know, just like in my social groups and stuff. Yeah. About what a terrible mom I was because I was also actively being told that. It's really hard and there was all that shame and it's like I like my my daughter with her daughter is like ⁓ my gosh. Like I'm so proud of her for ⁓ The way she's raising her, the way she's just talking to her and stuff. I'm like, ⁓ I love it. And that you know, that's the whole point was I wanted to be the cycle breaker. Like, I'm gonna do this. I'm breaking the cycle. There's so much toxicity in my family. There's so much ⁓ you know, damage. ⁓ and I just was like, No, we I have to break the cyc somebody's gotta break the cycle, might as well be me. So whoever just do it.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Great job.
speaker-1: it immediately when you know with my granddaughters like I I see it immediately when I see her the way that we all just like love her and the way my daughter is with her. I'm like this is why I did it. She's never going to have to feel that way. She's never gonna have to be you know insecure and those kind I mean yes she will do that 'cause she's a human, but you know, like she's gonna have people to talk to. Yes, exactly. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Self worth.
speaker-1: Yeah. She'll get talked to about that. Yeah. Whenever she'll be like a fake crying or something, I'm like, we don't manipulate.
speaker-0: ⁓ good.
speaker-1: Stop manipulating us.
speaker-0: There you go. Perfect. You recognize what she's doing, so you can stop it. ⁓ my gosh. Well, thank you so much for being on here. This has been such a powerful, powerful conversation. And ⁓ of course I'll have everything in the description below. ⁓ but what where can people find you? ⁓ Yeah, where can they connect with you?
speaker-1: Everything is that's where I'm at podcasts, all over social media. That's where I'm at podcast dot com is my website and I'll give you every link to everything that I do. And yeah, so that's where I'm at podcast dot com and all over social media. Yeah. ⁓ and yeah, my podcasts and just I'm teaching and making fun of the narcissist daily.
speaker-0: Very good. All right. Well, thank you everyone for coming. ⁓ if this has helped you in any way, please like, subscribe, and share to anyone that you think that's a this would be a benefit to. And ⁓ until next time, have a blessed week and I will see you then.
speaker-0: Hello and welcome back to Take Back Your Authority with Heather Boltheis. ⁓ I'm so grateful that you're here with me today and my guest, ⁓ who I'll introduce to you in just a moment. But let's go ahead and open up in prayer and then we'll get started. So, dear Lord, I just thank you for this day. Thank you for Laura that she's able to come and ⁓ speak her wisdom to ⁓ my audience as well, and ⁓ just speak in us, give us your words, your wisdom and your discernment, and ⁓ guide us as we go through ⁓ this episode. Amen. All right. Okay. So today's conversation is actually very a very important one. We are talking about something that many people are walking through silently. Something that can slowly steal your identity, your confidence, and your sense of self if you don't recognize it. So, and that is narcissist abuse and more importantly, how to break ⁓ free from it and to take back your authority. And so I'm honored to introduce my guest, Laura. Who is also my friend? ⁓ we met probably, I don't know, five, six years ago. And ⁓ I love that she's doing this work, and I'm so grateful to have her on my show. So ⁓ today I'm joined by Laura Richards, who is a narcissist abuse recovery expert. ⁓ Laura is an an international podcaster, a number one bestselling author and speaker dedicated to empowering women through her global podcast. That's where I'm at, and her best selling book. married to the nice guy, getting over narcissist narcissistic abuse. And ⁓ Laura also shares her personal journey of recovering from 32 years of marriage to a narcissist. And her mission is simple and but powerful to shine a light on narcissist abuse and to let women know they are never alone and that healing is always possible. So Laura, welcome to the podcast. I'm so honored to have you here. I'm so glad
speaker-1: Thanks for having me, Heather.
speaker-0: Yes, yes, yes. So Laura, for someone hearing your story for the first time, who are you, ⁓ who are you and what led you to this work?
speaker-1: ⁓ you know, I'm just someone who got divorced after thirty-two years of marriage for irreconcilable differences. And then I became an accidental expert. A few months later, I started to unravel ⁓ lies and betrayals. And ⁓ all of a sudden I got to be an expert in narcissistic abuse. I did not plan for this. It just happened. I think I had said the word gaslighting, and so the algorithm started showing me things. So
speaker-0: F
speaker-1: But what happened was it explained everything that had been going on. ⁓ you know, I was in a marriage where I didn't understand why we couldn't get along. I also didn't I'm like, Well, how why did we get divorced? Like, why couldn't we figure it out? Like what what was the problem? Well, I was married to someone who was actively not trying to work anything out, you know, they're talking out both sides of their mouth. So, ⁓ I just became an accidental expert and decided that ⁓ Keeping quiet only protects abusers and I don't protect abusers. And so ⁓ started talking. ⁓ never say his name. I just you know, it's just insert your clown here. And ⁓ I just I speak about it to warn the others because I was in it for 33 total. And as a Gen Xer, you know, this is the information that we need because we were not taught this and we've been societalized. ⁓ we you know, to the fairy tale and sweeping you off your feet and your Prince Charming and all that. And it's like those things are all well and good. ⁓ but there are dangers in that. And ⁓ we weren't taught that. So so that's that's the story in a nutshell.
speaker-0: Very good. So you were married for thirty two years and what did that look like at the beginning? I mean, were there any signs? Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: Now looking back, I see them all. You know, the thing is is that okay, so we were friends in college and we we were both dating other people. And so we we became fast friends. We all there was a group of us that hung out together. And the thing is, is that once like I broke up with my boyfriend, he broke up with his actually fiance, ⁓ you know, not for any reason for ⁓ each other, but it was soon after we were dating and he was like, Well, we've been friends, look, maybe we should date. And that's okay, so looking back, that's a red flag because there's a grooming process, okay? Because narcissists always have the next one waiting. Well, that was me. So when he broke up with his ex, ⁓ with his fiance, you know, who was my friend as well, we actually are still in touch. ⁓ you know, I was there waiting. I was ready to go because he had groomed me to be the next one. You know, I didn't know. I didn't know any of this stuff. I just thought, Somebody's paying attention to me. And I had that deep longing to be loved and wanted and ⁓ to get married and have kids and you know, 'cause I didn't want to be a spinster at twenty and get something.
speaker-0: twenty. I know. That shows our age, right?
speaker-1: That's all ridiculous. No. I just always was like, ⁓ I want to get married and have kids at 20. I just that's what I envision. I'm like, for Pete's sake, I don't even have a full brain. You know, so the though there was never any well, okay, I'm not gonna say never. There was never really any yelling, but there was a lot of coercive control. So this is something that we're all learning about now. Coercive control is like the subtle, you know, constant. manipulation, gaslighting, all that to get you to do things. Right. Make you feel a certain way. To help the you know, gaslighting makes you question your own reality and makes you question your own thoughts. And so that's what I started seeing. Like looking back, did I see those? You know, looking back, I see them. D then no, didn't see one thing. Didn't see a thing. Because I believed that if someone had something Like if they said you're kind of difficult, you should really work on this thing. I would be like, ⁓ well, thank you for telling me that. And I will take it upon myself to fix that. Right. ⁓ no. You need to have your own introspection to say, like, do I really do that? Am I really that way? Or is this filtering through their own, you know, discomfort or whatever it is? So I didn't know any of that. I was young and also not taught that. So I didn't have the skills and I did that.
speaker-0: No.
speaker-1: I did that for decades and really that's what I was taught growing up. I unraveled all fifty-five years of my life when I got divorced. I did not unravel just the thirty-three I was with him. We're just gonna take it down to the studs and figure it all out.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. So you talk about gaslighting. So what are some examples of somebody the gaslighting or what or what are some signs that tell that someone is a narcissist?
speaker-1: So, you know, the I this is not from like if they were gonna go get diagnosed, but it's a high need of control and a really big lack of empathy. Plus, you add on to that that they have a really big need for admiration from you and others. So then you add okay, so then the gaslighting is that this is meant to throw you off and cause chaos and cause confusion. So a lot of women I talk to, and myself included, We just walked around going, I just feel crazy. Like I swear he said this or I swear this happened and he's telling me it didn't. And this is your partner, right? This is that you decide to spend your life with. ⁓ even someone who's dating gaslighting will throw you off immediately. It's a lot of that's not what I said. You're so sensitive. You know, like they'll put you down or whatever, the backhanded compliments. You know, that's the subtle ways. ⁓ and you're so sensitive. And then you go, you try to correct and be like, ⁓ yeah, maybe I am a little sensitive. That's how I was, and that's how I know a lot of people are. Cause people say, like, why didn't you leave at the first red flag? I'm like, the first red flag did not look red. The first red flag was very like, Well, you're being a jerk. Why'd you say that? You know what I mean? Like Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so then you have the other side of like, Why'd you give up so easily? You know, like that kind of thing. So so
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: And that that mo what was modeled to me was years and years of being married, you know, decades. His parents are still married. My parents were married till the end. And they were together 60 years. And so it's like that's what was modeled to me. And unless you were being hit, it wasn't abuse because and that that's that's what we were taught. So gaslighting and all the manipulation, the high need for control.
speaker-0: I'm trying to
speaker-1: It just is meant to throw you off and make you question yourself, make you question everything. And you will walk on those eggshells to make sure everything is good in your house. And, you know, maybe if you're in systems like say a religious system that is like really promoting that, you know, like being a good submissive wife or whatever, and we're we're never called to be an abuse. You know, that's biblical. It's in the Bible about yeah, that you don't have to stay for abuse. It's like more than that. And And so there's so many messages coming to you. And for me, I was in the, you know, the church for 27 years. I replaced the Holy Spirit's voice with his voice. That's what I wanted to hear was how will I please my husband? Didn't matter what God was saying. It was like, How can I please my husband? And so that you can gaslight yourself. That's what I learned to do. He didn't he treat me, you know. So and I hear that from so many people.
speaker-0: Yeah, so at what point did you finally say I can't keep living like this anymore? Were you the one that that initiated the divorce or was he or how did that
speaker-1: Yeah. So kind of. And this is this is part of the narcissistic ⁓ discard and everything is, you know, I I was going to therapy ⁓ because he said I was such a terrible person. And ⁓ so if you can believe it, I was grieving that my mother had died. So he was like So they have a very like it's not even a lack of empathy. It's like straight out apathy. Like they and so he said, you know, I think there's something wrong with you. So i I got Sent to therapy. And listen, that's where I found my voice. And what I started to realize as I was healing was, am I doing this for 40 years? For 40 more years? Am I gonna keep doing this? Because it sounded exhausting. And I also didn't think I would survive it. And he was barely talking to me and all that. So as part of the discard. He for the last couple of years of our marriage, he'd like made a sweeping announcement. He wasn't gonna be intimate with me anymore and I had to beg for it and all yes. I mean, like, it's like they're amazing. Just say the words, I want to get a divorce. But they won't because they have to be the victim. You have to be the bad guy. Despite the fact that they've dri driven you to the brink of insanity. And and so he really just like was barely talking to me and ramping up.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: you know, inappropriate behavior with other women, things like that. And so he came into the room and asked me if, you know, he's like, if this is the way our life is going to be, you should tell me you're done. So all immediately throw it to me. You should tell me you're done. And I was like, why do I have to say it? And then he's like, you're right. I'm just not brave enough to say it. And I said, you know what? I am done. So that's called the reverse discard. They push you to the edge so that you do it.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Because they're talking bad about you behind the scenes with their flying monkeys already. This campaign. Maybe they've already been talking bad about you, which I suspected. But then my grown children said, ⁓ yeah, he that's what he's yeah. He's telling everybody you gave up on the marriage. And I'm like, did he forgive forget to tell everybody? Yeah, we drove me insane and the way he did me and that he had a girlfriend. Like, did he forget all that that part? Yes. They're gonna play the victim till the very end. And we're gonna be to blame. So you can be discarded, you can be reverse discarded, whatever. And what I teach when I'm talking to women is like we don't care what they say about us and what they did because they wanna be the victim and we have to learn how to get over what's being said behind our back. ⁓ we have to work on our internal validation, right? We can't be worrying about that external validation from others. We have to work on that, which w which has been broken down. So we're we'll work on that. Yeah.
speaker-0: 'Cause they always want to look like the nice guy, right? Always. They always want that validation. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: ⁓ the hero and every yeah. Yeah, he was serving the homeless and all that kind of stuff. So it was like you look like the greatest person ever.
speaker-0: Yeah. So what are some common traits that, you know, narcissistic traits of a narcissist that people overlook?
speaker-1: Well, it's hard because when they're a covert narcissist. So we have ⁓ okay, we can just do two kinds, covert and overt. So overt, really out there saying, I love myself, everything I do is great. You know, see those people often on movies or in the public eye or in political figures who are like, I love myself and everything I do is great. That's when you that's sometimes what we think of as a narcissist. But then you have covert kind, which is what I dealt with, is out in public, he was like So generous, serving the homeless. Everybody loved him. He thought he was so great. And that's why I named my book, Married to a Nice Guy, you know, because everybody thought he was so nice. And then he would come home, and it was just like the silent treatment and ⁓ backhanded compliments, the gaslighting, you know, making you feel like it's so chaotic. Like the garage door would go to would open after work and I'd be like on edge. That's the walking on eggshells. It's that kind of thing. You never really have peace because you're waiting for the other shoe to drop. Even if there's no physical violence, it's just ⁓ a constant psychological violence that and you walk on eggshells. So those are the things. If you are that if you know what walking on eggshells is, you're that anxious when if you hear that garage door open or you hear the keys in the door and you jump, listen. There might be something going on that you need to look at.
speaker-0: Yeah. So why do so many strong, intelligent women stay in these relationships?
speaker-1: Yeah. Well listen, they like us strong and intelligent because they do actually mirror us. So that's why so many people are it's so wild. Like anybody can fall prey to this, but they really like those strong, intelligent women that they can mirror. They can like they're like some sort of monster that really they they need a supply, right? Yeah. And we stay because we are conditioned and psychologically manipulated to stay. Because we have intermittent reinforcement and then intermittent abuse. So the times when they're abusing us and then they're like, ⁓ I'm so sorry, please forgive me, I'll never do it again. Then that gives us a chemical reaction. So our abuser is also our soother. And we now are chemically bonded. And it that's why it's hard to leave. That's why people go back, because that's what happens. It's that trauma bond. You can break it, but it's one of the hardest things that we have to work on because we just our brain is chemically attached to them.
speaker-0: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. And so would you say that this type of abuse attacks a person's identity and sense of authority in their own lives?
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, for sure, because you know, you don't even really know who you are. You don't you don't know. And and at the beginning, maybe you were like an artist or a singer or something and and they just thought it was the greatest thing ever, or maybe even just anything. ⁓ I love all the fun pictures you post on social media, things like that. But then as time goes on, like very little time, they start breaking you down immediately. I hate that you sing. I hate that you leave to go sing. And you You're not with me anymore. And so everything becomes a problem. So what happens is you slowly are having your identity chipped away. And now you become a shell of a human. You are molding yourself and shape shifting yourself to be whatever they need you to be so that you can keep peace in your relationship. And it's heartbreaking. And so that's something that we really have to work on after because you may I mean for me, my gosh, I I re like I had to reevaluate my entire fifty five years and like, who really am I? And my God for my therapist who was like, Yeah, when people ask you to go do something, go do it and see if you like it. And I was like, ⁓ that's an idea. You know.
speaker-0: Well that was a huge blessing in disguise, right?
speaker-1: Sure. Yeah. I mean I of course you don't feel like it is, but then I had friends who are healthy and had been through this or like, Yay, you get to, you know, become someone new or you get to figure out who you are and I'm like Okay, I'll try to look at it as positive.
speaker-0: Well, I mean, if you hadn't gone to therapy, you maybe not had found realized what was going on. Yeah. Yeah. So what it what was the hardest part of breaking free?
speaker-1: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, the you know, the hardest part was the trauma bond, which was how did I hate him and love him at the same time? That was the hardest part. Because I really truly loved him. And, you know, until I started finding out about all his lies, I loved him and I was like, I don't understand why we got a divorce. Like I don't get it. Like I just don't understand why we couldn't make it work out. So then when I started to unpack the lies, I was like, ⁓ my gosh, and my poor brain. My poor brain didn't jump on board right away. My poor brain was still in a trauma bond going, Hey, do we have a husband? And I'd be like, No brain, we don't have a husband. So we it and so you are going through that trauma bond. You're like withdrawing from this person. So that was the hardest thing. ⁓ I when I had a name for my pain and the cycle of abuse and all the things that are going on, it was For me, I'm such a lifelong learner and so type A that I was like, ⁓ this is the reason why this is happening. And that that just made so much sense to me and it helped me to stop the pain immediately. No, but it but it helped me on my healing journey. So yeah, the trauma bond, that was the hardest. That's for sure.
speaker-0: Yeah. And when you say like he the lies, was he lying to you about stuff or or just lying to other people about you?
speaker-1: You know, everything. Like there were so many. Yeah, I think back to like this is the dumbest thing, Heather. Like, I remember okay, he would lay in bed, but he had an iPad and he would read library books, like on you know, on on his iPad all the time. Like he was an avid reader. And then like we would be at parties and he'd be like, ⁓ I just haven't had a lot of time to read lately. And I'd be like, I don't understand. So it was weird to me. I'm like, Why would you even lie about something? Why did you say that? He's like, Well, just don't really have a lot of time to read. And then literally we'd get in bed and he'd open up this book. I was like So it was I don't know what it is, but they just have a compulsion, I guess. I don't know. But it yeah, it was all the time. I've unraveled, look, I'm still unraveling things every once in a while when I'm I'm writing another book. And so when I'm writing, my brain goes, ⁓ was that a lie? Was really ⁓ That place, did he really do that? Is that let me tell you, I unraveled something just a couple months ago and I was like, ⁓ my gosh, that was a lie too. Like so dumb things, dumb things that don't make any sense. Why do you have to lie about it? Why? I don't know.
speaker-0: Well yeah, if you're a compulsor c compulsive liar, you don't even know what's true and what's not, right?
speaker-1: Well and also like our default is not to lie, right? Well your default is Heather, but
speaker-0: Right. I mean I yeah, I tell the truth. Right. Probably to a fault sometimes, but
speaker-1: Right, exactly. Because some people say, like, ⁓ my gosh, it must be exhausting to be them. Like it's not because think about what our default is. Our default is we maybe, you know, we go through life not lying. And also we go through life ⁓ with other people, like caring for them. We walk through this world like thinking about others, right? Yeah, I'm assuming you do too. I know I know enough about you, right? And so they don't have that as a default. Their default is lying and lying, cheating, stealing. You know, like that's their default. And so that it's not a problem for them. Like just like it is for us to wake up and it's not a problem for us to walk through this world with joy or not lying. Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: Yeah, interesting. Yeah. So I know it's hard for us to fathom 'cause our mind like you said, our mind doesn't even go there. So it's like
speaker-1: that that's exactly what I had to unravel because I'd sit there and go, I wouldn't do this. That's why you that's why you can't put logic to this because it's illogical. They they they don't admit to any wrongdoing. My ex told me he was doing nothing wrong. And ⁓ and I just had to whatever. Like if you have a problem with me, go to therapy. And I'm like, okay. And so I did. And that's her that's my point. So thank you very much.
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ my gosh. So, ⁓ you know, what what are like the first steps? If someone's recognizing that their h their spouse or whatever is this person, what is the first one of the first steps they can do to, you know, I hate to say get out of the relationship, but you know, I mean, you need to protect yourself as well.
speaker-1: Yeah, you do. I mean, you can try to stay, but it's impossible because you can become a shell of a person and it still won't be good enough. So you really have to save yourself. But you know, the thing that's going to save you is like decentering them and starting to work on your boundaries. So boundaries choosing yourself now. ⁓ that is going to be a problem for many of them. And they're going to be like you're going to start seeing their They'll pull back and things like that. ⁓ it's really horribly sad because but listen, yes, we're dedicated to our marriages and all that, right? But we don't want to try and salvage a relationship with an abuser because we're worth more than that. ⁓ and so that's the really hard part. I have tons of resources for ways to escape and all that, because you have to do it very quietly. You don't like announce, I think you're me. And you know, you don't do that because Because like one of my guests on on my show, h he didn't hit her until like I forget how many, like let's say ten years in. Do you know what I mean? So it's like we wanna be cautious all the time. And so, you know, setting boundaries and starting to work on your self worth, which I was doing, not the boundaries part, but the self worth part. Yeah. I just forgot to I was helping other people with their self worth. I forgot to do it for myself, you know. But those are the things we need to work on.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And they probably won't like it and you can talk to them, but don't go to therapy if you think you are in abuse because ⁓ there's an imbalance of power and he or they will n you know, ⁓ gaslight the therapist oftentimes and then make you the problem.
speaker-0: So don't go to couples therapy, go on your own.
speaker-1: therapy. ⁓ yes. Yes. Don't go to couples therapy. If you think there's any of this is resonating with you, do not go to couples therapy because you will be the problem and it's just gonna be a waste of time. They're gonna look like hero that they brought in their poor, crazy wife that really needs help. And now you're trying to explain away something that's not true.
speaker-0: Yeah, I it's like what you mentioned about the ten years in too, because I'm thinking if if you say something pretty bold, then that could become a problem as well.
speaker-1: Fight. Exactly. And that's why we we do it strategically and quietly. And so there's an escape plan on my website. Just even even if you call like if you if any of this is resonating, if you call the domestic violence hotline, just to talk to them, that's you don't have to do anything. It's just to talk to them. Because it you can't it's you can't stay. You can't stay. Not in be safe and ⁓ not and really have a relationship. What's the point? Some people are like, I'll just run off the clock. What? That doesn't even make sense. You know, like like we have so much time left. Especially like the women I work with in midlife. It's like, no, we still have tons of time left. We're not doing what's done.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm sure it's hard. I mean, you think about financially and and all that too, you know, that's gotta be tough for, you know, a lot of women to think about that too, you know.
speaker-1: Yeah, of course. And so yeah, I have tons of resources on my website with those kinds of things 'cause that always comes up. So tons of coaches, tons of ways to make money on your own if you've been a stay at home mom and you haven't really had a career. or ⁓ you know, maybe you gave up your career, which is very common. So
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. So after the abuse, how what does it look like to take back your authority after you've gotten out?
speaker-1: ⁓ my gosh, it's amazing. It's like you can breathe again. So I you know, at first it was very like I was saying before, like kind of scary and ⁓ who am I and what am I gonna do? But then to be able to walk in this world and say, like these I get to make my own choices and I get to decide what I'm going to do with my life. And who do I wanna be when I grow up? That's what I always say. Who do I want to be when I grow up? Because You know, if you've been in abuse, you've had somebody not supporting you, telling you, No, you can't do those things, you know. No, people are lying to you when they say you're a good speaker or whatever it is, right? Yeah. And you know, whatever those negative things that they're saying to you. And so, you know, taking back your authority looks like unraveling all that and really like standing in your power and being like, No, I I can do this. And if I don't know how to do it, I will ha find somebody who can help me. I will look up a video. I will learn how to do it. And there's such a a beautiful freedom. You know, we're not meant to to live in such, you know, bondage. We're meant to be free to be able to do like why do only some people get to do whatever they want to do? No, we should all be able to do that. So yeah, it's been ⁓ it's been amazing. I feel very empowered ⁓ doing what I'm doing because, you know, shame is broken. In community and in conversation. When we talk about things like this, when we bring it to the light, immediately shame is broken. And ⁓ we shouldn't be walking around in shame. We're not we shouldn't be ashamed. You know, there are the ones that should be ashamed of what they're doing.
speaker-0: Yeah. So speaking of community, how important it is it to have community during this time? Well, always, but in particular.
speaker-1: Yeah, well, 'cause I felt very alone. And until I started saying things, ⁓ that you know, I started saying things on social media and now I have a a private support group. People come into the group and even in my DMs on my social media, people say, like, ⁓ thank God you're doing okay. Or I was so happy I found your page because now I know I'm not alone. And that's what it does, right? It's that community and conversation. It's to know you're not alone because I really felt really alone, really ashamed. ⁓ people around me were like, ⁓ don't talk about it. And then I started to understand, what? So I I started to understand that that not talking about it protects the abuser and I don't protect abusers. And so I want other women to know they're not alone and there's still hope. And that's that's the biggest thing, especially for I've met women who are in, you know, who are married as long as I was, married longer than I was. And you know, feel hopeful when they come to my page and see like, ⁓ gosh, okay, so this is normal and this is, you know, and I can do this and simple things. Simple things like choosing the color of your next couch, you know, or the paint on your walls or what you want to eat for dinner. I had a friend who I asked her to pick out a salad dressing for something and she's like, I've never been allowed to choose. I have no idea what I like. And so those little steps, it just that's how we take back our authority, right? I mean, it's like just those life choices. And let me tell you, you feel so empowered as you're walking through and then understanding that other people are going through the same thing and it's it's normal and you're gonna be okay.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think that's with anything, right? We all think that we're the only ones with problems. And it's like everybody has problems. But we just don't see it 'cause they're not telling us. Yeah.
speaker-1: thing, you know, and especially like I don't know about you, but like sometimes in church, you know, like sitting in church and, you know, sometimes we put on our Sunday smile and and and that's hard because once we started like I had a women's table at my group. Once I started talking about things, let me tell you, like all the women had been involved ⁓ I went through that. I went through that. And what can happen then is they rallied around me. And then you can ⁓ I can talk to this person about this and I can talk to that person. And so you're not alone. And so finding a safe group to be in, ⁓ really anything. I mean you have sometimes have to test the water with some of your friends. Yeah, ⁓ I've just went through this. And some of them will be like, ⁓ okay. And you know, they they don't want to they may not be ready. It's all everybody's comfort level. And then I had other friends who sat across from me and said, like, tell me everything. Tell me every feeling you're having and everything happening, you know. And I'm thankful for all of those friends that you know taught me. Taught me everything.
speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. So, you know, what does healing look like, you know, after ⁓ we talked about that. We just talked about that. Sorry. ⁓ but what so speaking about just having the community and so forth, but you know, a church, but what does forgiveness play in the healing? Are you able to forgive the spouse? Are you I mean, I personally believe that forgiveness is really healing, but what's your take on that?
speaker-1: Yeah, and yeah, I I can see that. It's a little different in abuse. And so I have I've really been grappling with it. But something I wrote in my book that I really liked was I had read this somewhere, that if you don't feel okay, two things. We do not have to forgive to start our healing. Okay. We don't have to forgive first for our healing to start. That's what I believe. ⁓ because sometimes people will be like, I can't even start healing because I haven't forgiven him. And Forgiveness might not come right away. I know it's for us, but when you've been in abuse, it just feels a little different. And so this is what I have learned and what I have read that I enjoyed and really resonated with that sometimes the healing happens and then forgiveness comes along for the ride. And so it's doesn't have to be like one thing and then the next.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: You know what I mean? Yeah. ⁓ it wasn't like one event and then this. Because I did go through this this ⁓ forgiveness event ⁓ at a church. And I'll tell you, I got in my car and was like, No, I'm not for no, I don't you know what I mean? Because at the core was really what was true. ⁓ and so when I started reading more about that, because there's a lot to unravel. It really is a lot to unravel. Does
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Do I hold any hatred? Does it control me? No. But I really like that idea as as you're healing, forgiveness comes along for the ride. And I don't think that you have to forgive him. And I say him because that's the majority of abusers are male. You don't have to forgive him to start your healing. Cause that might hold you up. Like if you want to go heal, come back. You know what I mean? Like along with you.
speaker-0: Well, I think too, I think forgiveness thinks that it says what the other person did was okay, which is that is not forgiveness at all. For yes. Yeah. Forgiveness is being able to let it go. But yeah, it's a process. I mean, especially with something that's been on for so long and it's so deep. It's not just like a one time little thing. It's it's a whole process.
speaker-1: Yes. And I think that's why it's been an ongoing thing. And has there been one event of forgiveness? No. Has there been ⁓ there's no control? I don't they're not, you know, I don't think about and I say them because he's married to the person I thought he was messing around with. And so it's like that well, it's not a surprise. Because that's what they do. You know, so if forgiving them, mm. I don't see I like I don't even have the words for you, Heather. But this those are the two things that I have learned as I feel like it comes along for the ride. And then you don't have to forgive to start your healing. Don't wait on your healing, but really keep that in your mind so that it's still part of the process. Whatever that looks like for you, if it's not something that's biblical for you, you know, whatever that looks like for you.
speaker-0: Yeah, and I don't think it's a this or that. I think it's both and. I mean it's they're definitely intertwined together.
speaker-1: Yes, I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. So ⁓ what does it mean for a woman to truly step back into her power after abuse? Yeah. Is there a time is there is there an aha moment or is it just kind of like, ⁓ wait, let me look back. I think I've I think I've gone somewhere or I think I've been feeling I don't know.
speaker-1: Yeah. I mean, I I think it is like an awakening, right? It's like one day you do wake up and you have a little more clarity. When you're not in active abuse, your brain starts to heal. We know that the brain can heal. So that's why we want to do a lot of work ⁓ to heal ourselves and build new neuropathways to heal our brain, which is going to be things like affirmations, prayer, ⁓ new thought patterns, you know, all the different kinds of things, right? And that helps us build ⁓ new thought patterns. So I mean, literally I remember waking up after a few months going, wait a second, I think those are my thoughts. And so that that's the part where you start to see it's like a little awakening. You start to like make little choices and ⁓ I'm gonna go I did ⁓ I did this. ⁓ I like this. And or I don't like that. Why have I always, you know, like whatever this because that's you know, he wanted. And so it's a I think it's a little like awakening, but the biggest thing you'll find is that when you start loving yourself and setting boundaries, because I believe those go hand in hand, you will really see a difference because when someone tries to cross your boundaries, you start to be like, No, that's not who I am anymore. ⁓ I had somebody say to me, Well, you used to allow this. And I'm like, I know.
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓
speaker-1: It was so unhealthy. And I don't and I don't do that anymore. And they're like, ⁓ okay. So
speaker-0: Which probably weird for them to hear, right?
speaker-1: For sure, because you know, the people who benefited from you not having boundaries ⁓ are the people who are not gonna want you to have boundaries. Yeah, and so like sometimes you don't have to have those conversations, but this person was close enough to me where I was like, Yeah, that was so unhealthy. I don't do that anymore. That's who I am. So I think it's a like an awakening. Every day you feel like you get a little more clarity and you get a little more clear on what you want out of your life and who you are.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1: And just anything, like the little things you like.
speaker-0: Yeah. So do you think there's different levels of narcissists?
speaker-1: Yeah, I think it is a spectrum, right? ⁓ but I think they all follow the same playbook. ⁓ but yes, I mean some are worse than others, of course. ⁓ you have ones that are a lot more violent. So but you know, the ⁓ we can't really there's not anything you can do with that information other than you have to be careful. Because the ones that are very covert, you know, like I had where he's a nice guy and everybody loved him. You know, it's like the subtle
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: digs and everything, the back and back elements. ⁓ you're being so sensitive, things like that. Those things are unless you are educated, they're hard to see. And that's why we talk about it. That's why I've had videos or people comment, ⁓ my gosh, another level unlocked. Because we don't realize subtle things that are happening around us. So that's why we have to just keep educating ourselves because they're not going to come over to you with a sign that says, Hello, I'm here to abuse you. That's not how They come in like everything you ever wanted. So
speaker-0: Well yeah, and you're you're used to you're you're used to it, right? I mean, especially after thirty two years of marriage, it's like, well, that's just normal. Isn't this just normal?
speaker-1: Being, yeah, he's just being, you know, he's just being a jerk or whatever. He didn't mean it. Yeah, you start to gaslight yourself and easier. I didn't want to look what I say. I don't want to I didn't want to look directly at the sun because if I did, then my entire life would fall apart. And then it eventually did because I had to choose, can I continue to live like this? I couldn't. I knew I deserved and living like that and in so so much sadness, depression. ⁓ Didn't even think he loved me. Didn't even think he liked me. You know, 'cause they can say all day long they love you, but man, I d yeah think he liked he liked me at all. So do I I just started to say, like, I think I deserve more than this and I don't think you like me. So I'm not
speaker-0: I'm sure too there's the guilt and the shame of how did I end up in this relationship and how how did I, you know, go so long? ⁓ which there sh there shouldn't be, but of course that's just our humanness, right? No.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's the first emotion you're gonna have is you're gonna be ashamed because I was like, ⁓ my gosh, how did I not see it? But this is what we have to remember they don't come in as someone saying, I'm gonna abuse. They come in lying to you. They come in like everything you've ever wanted. Yeah, and everything you've been hoping and praying for. That's how they come in. And especially if you said, ⁓ right, you know, like I said, ⁓ I want three kids and I want to do this, and he's like, ⁓ my gosh, I want three kids. So they just start mirroring you right away. So they come in like everything you've ever wanted. And so we you don't have to tell women, ⁓ my gosh, he was lying to you. So of course you you believed him because it was your spouse. So of course you believe him. What are you gonna like are you really do you really love? You know, like you're not gonna be you're not gonna do that. We are trusting the person we're married to. And then it's ever when it's every day you get used to it and then ⁓ No, at some point you probably go, I can't do it. I hope one day you'll stop and go, ⁓ no, I can't do this anymore.
speaker-0: Right. Yeah. I mean I remember I mean I'd never even heard the word narcissist until later on in life. It's like we don't even we never even talked about it. So the fact that this is getting out there, we're talking about it is really important. And I mean I don't even think that they realize that they're that way, right? They do? Okay. Okay. That's can you unpack that?
speaker-1: ⁓ no, they do. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. I'll tell you why, because they don't abuse everybody. They don't they don't go out in public and abuse their boss. They don't abuse the waitress. Now I'm talking about covert because sometimes the malignant overt ones, yes, they are yelling at the waitress and all that. But I'm talking about the covert. They're they don't go out in public and you know, like my kids, it would it's funny, like he'd, you know, my ex would pick up the phone and it would be work and they'd go like, ⁓ dad's got his work voice on. You know, it's like a complete switch right away. So they don't abuse everybody. They abuse who they want to abuse. So they know very much what they're doing. They do they know what they're doing. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: Interesting. Yeah, that's very interesting. So what would you what would you say to looking back now, what would you have said to your younger self to maybe a avoid this or whatever? Yeah, what would you say to your younger self?
speaker-1: Well, you don't have to rush to get married. It's okay to wait. You don't have to rush because that's one of their tactics is to rush into marriage, rush to really lock you down, rush to get you pregnant, things like that so that you're locked down. It's like their ultimate prize, like to get married and have ⁓ you know, get you pregnant. Yeah. You know, and I would have said that and I would have said, you know, you are loved. just as you are. Yeah. Without someone saying that they love you or saying that they're they want you to be their wife. You're loved just as you are. And ⁓ I really didn't I didn't believe that at all. ⁓ I don't know if I would have believed it, thinking back you know would I like to hear it? Yeah. I think I yeah maybe it would have kept me fine. I mean, I have my kids and my granddaughter, so it's hard, right? You know? Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: That's the good thing that came out of it and they're beautiful people and we've had a lot of healing. But ⁓ yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. So did the kids recognize it that he was that way? When they're growing up or at what point did they recognize it?
speaker-1: You know, I don't know when they did, ⁓ but I know that when so our kids were grown when we got divorced, ⁓ twenty nine. And so when we called them and said we were gonna get divorced, ⁓ my my two oldest actually texted me separately and said really proud of you for leaving and how miserable you were. And so they see a lot more than we think they do. ⁓ so they're dealing with a different
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: person, right? They're dealing with their ⁓ you know, abusive dad. Yeah. I'm dealing with an abusive. So so what it looks like, I don't even know. I haven't even unraveled this whole part, but what it looks like is like we put a high demand on the kids for good grades and just different things. And now my kids are always like, you're such a different person. Cause I'm like so relaxed. I'm like, ⁓ you don't do that. ⁓ you don't like that job. Yeah. I guess you should go to another one because life's too short. We're not promised to ⁓ And no, I don't want that. Like they're beautiful people. They are great members of society. You know what I mean? Like they're they're just and they're just wonderful, caring people. And so that's all that's all I wanted. And I also I wanted to have a relationship with them because they were not on my side, whatever that means. You know, growing up, they were really because dad was fun. I was a safe for a lot of years, and you know, and then also I worked in the school district and I was home when they were home. And so I was a disciplinarian and I wasn't as fun. And mom has to make a big deal about everything and that kind of thing. And so yeah. Yeah. So it was they knew I was miserable. And then also they he thinks he's sly, but he he had look, they really it's a very much a mother wound.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And so the they love the attention of other women. And that that was a problem for my kids. They they'd be like, You seem a little too friendly with like so and so or whatever, you know? ⁓ so sometimes they would say things like that. Yeah. And
speaker-0: 'Cause it it goes back from not being loved by their own parents, right? That that's what causes them to kind of become this person.
speaker-1: It's usually it's usually from the mother a lot of times. And yeah, his mom definitely was very cold, lack of really it's like a it's ⁓ emotional neglect. ⁓ and so that's that was the other part that I had a hard time with. It's like you see the reasoning, right? Okay, but I can hold space for that six year old little boy who needed his mommy's love and didn't get it. Yeah. I don't hold I don't hold space for the grown man who could have gotten help instead of abusing and so See, and this is why we need to learn the language because that's cognitive dissonance and you can hold both in the at the same time. See, I didn't know that. I thought, ⁓ he can only hold this six year old little boy and that's it. That's the reason why he abuses. Okay, well, I have I have childhood trauma. Right. I don't go around abusing. I get right. So we can hold we can ha understand both things and go like, ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: That's the reason he does it, but it doesn't excuse it. Doesn't excuse the behavior. So yeah. And so that our brain is fascinating to me. And yeah. Yeah. I again accidental expert. Not on the agenda for my life.
speaker-0: I do not. Yes, yes. Well, I love that we are made, that we can change, you know, we if we become aware, f you know, awareness is what the first step to being able to change, you you know, becoming aware and and even too, like you being married to a nar narcissist, ⁓ being aware becoming aware that that's who he was. 'Cause I mean, did you recognize that before you even went to counseling? Or was it once you went to counseling that you kind of recognized that?
speaker-1: No, I didn't realize for three months after our divorce what what happened was I was starting to get clarity and then someone told me, Hey, I did you see that your ex is dating so and so? And I said, ⁓ my gosh. So what and I was like, No, I didn't know that because I've been on no contact with everybody. So my kids knew right away. My kids knew because he started dating her immediately. So my kids knew right away. My kids knew I was on no contact and they also knew That I would have a mental breakdown if I found out. And I agree, I did anyway. ⁓ to be like flippant about it, but I I really did. I really had a a little bit of a breakdown about that. Because listen, somebody you've been with years and then they've been lying and and I kept saying, like, I think there's something going on with you guys. I don't like it. And he'd be like, There's nothing going on. Okay, well, they're married now. ⁓ you mean it's like a liar, you know what I mean? And so that was really damaging. That was really hard. And so I did not know anything about narcissistic abuse. But because the internet was showing me things, because I was starting to see, you know, because I said gaslighting. And so I think the internet was like, here you go, here's some I saw a video and that was it. And then when I found out about her, I put the puzzle pieces together and that was it. That was it. I started voraciously reading and trying to understand and And then just people came out of the woodwork. I started talking about it and people came out of the woodwork to say, Hey, did you know my first marriage was abusive? And I'm like, No, because we don't talk about it. And so and these are people that I'd known for a lot of years in church and friends, dear friends that I didn't know marriages were abusive. And this is how we break that shame, right? We talk about it, we bring it to the light, and then other people can know and then ⁓ maybe other people won't be in it for as long as I was.
speaker-0: Yeah, like Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it is too the generation that we grew up in, you know, it was like get married. I was married at twenty twenty one. Yeah, how old was it? Twenty one or twenty two. ⁓ my husband was twenty. He was, you know, just gonna be twenty one. And ⁓ you know, we're still we are still married. But ⁓ yeah, it's like I look back and I'm thinking, you know, at the time I'm like, ⁓ I'm old enough, I graduated college, I know what I'm doing, and it's like, ⁓ my gosh, you know. So at least this generation, you know, they're waiting a little longer. Waiting a little longer to get married. I think they know a lot more, you know, there's a lot more out there.
speaker-1: No. Yeah, and I really like the discussions they're having 'cause I listen to my kids talking and I'm like so proud of them. Like the way they talk about things and and it's just they're a lot more open. I just I felt look, I grew up my mom was born and my mom and dad were born in the thirties. So there was a lot of shame whenever that mom had some childhood trauma and there was a lot of shame around it. And so that was sort of how I was raised, right? kind raise a here's some shame for you, you know. And I didn't like that and I didn't want to raise my kids like that. But then not understanding, you know, like we still didn't have the internet until I don't know how long.
speaker-0: Twenty nineties, but it really wasn't like it is today. Yeah.
speaker-1: I mean, I'm even thinking about social media. You know what I mean? Like it's like twenty years after I got married, the social media and I always I'm very thankful that I didn't have social media 'cause I didn't comparison, you know, just like in my social groups and stuff. Yeah. About what a terrible mom I was because I was also actively being told that. It's really hard and there was all that shame and it's like I like my my daughter with her daughter is like ⁓ my gosh. Like I'm so proud of her for ⁓ The way she's raising her, the way she's just talking to her and stuff. I'm like, ⁓ I love it. And that you know, that's the whole point was I wanted to be the cycle breaker. Like, I'm gonna do this. I'm breaking the cycle. There's so much toxicity in my family. There's so much ⁓ you know, damage. ⁓ and I just was like, No, we I have to break the cyc somebody's gotta break the cycle, might as well be me. So whoever just do it.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Great job.
speaker-1: it immediately when you know with my granddaughters like I I see it immediately when I see her the way that we all just like love her and the way my daughter is with her. I'm like this is why I did it. She's never going to have to feel that way. She's never gonna have to be you know insecure and those kind I mean yes she will do that 'cause she's a human, but you know, like she's gonna have people to talk to. Yes, exactly. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Self worth.
speaker-1: Yeah. She'll get talked to about that. Yeah. Whenever she'll be like a fake crying or something, I'm like, we don't manipulate.
speaker-0: ⁓ good.
speaker-1: Stop manipulating us.
speaker-0: There you go. Perfect. You recognize what she's doing, so you can stop it. ⁓ my gosh. Well, thank you so much for being on here. This has been such a powerful, powerful conversation. And ⁓ of course I'll have everything in the description below. ⁓ but what where can people find you? ⁓ Yeah, where can they connect with you?
speaker-1: Everything is that's where I'm at podcasts, all over social media. That's where I'm at podcast dot com is my website and I'll give you every link to everything that I do. And yeah, so that's where I'm at podcast dot com and all over social media. Yeah. ⁓ and yeah, my podcasts and just I'm teaching and making fun of the narcissist daily.
speaker-0: Very good. All right. Well, thank you everyone for coming. ⁓ if this has helped you in any way, please like, subscribe, and share to anyone that you think that's a this would be a benefit to. And ⁓ until next time, have a blessed week and I will see you then.
