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Welcome to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
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I'm your host, Mari Reisberg.
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Over the past several years, I've combined my degrees in acting and somatic psychology to share my sustaining creativity techniques with performers.
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And now I've decided to share with a bigger audience that includes you.
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I believe we are all creative, and this podcast is all about that.
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I'll be interviewing people from all backgrounds, ages, and creativity experiences to share just how creative we all are.
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Today I'll be chatting with Duncan Brand, founder of Intrinsic Leader Consulting Agency and Author.
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Please enjoy Duncan Brand.
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Welcome to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
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Today I'm chatting with Duncan Brand, founder of Intrinsic Leader.
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Welcome to the show.
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Thank you, Murray.
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A pleasure to be here.
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I am so looking forward to our conversation.
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I can't wait to dig into creativity with you.
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But before we get there, why don't you take a couple of moments and let our listeners know a little bit more about who you are and what it is you do.
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Yeah, thanks.
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And so I've founded Intrinsic Leader, which is a really a consulting agency for one of a better expression.
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Basically, we help organizations and leaders become more effective.
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I also wrote a book called Mind the Gap.
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And really the thrust of the book is how organizations need to become more human-centric versus employee-centric.
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And gidden under the need for how do you do that?
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And so the book isn't really, you know, a theoretical textbook type effort.
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It's more of a playbook.
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How do you get there?
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I love that.
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What what kind of show did you align with that being more human-centric versus employee-centric?
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And maybe for listeners who think, well, aren't those the same things?
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Employees are humans.
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How do you differentiate between them?
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Yeah, I don't think it's a great question.
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And the way I always kind of approach that question to make it topical in today's environment is if you look at AI, I think it's going to reveal the true underbelly of an organization.
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What I mean by that is the company that is human-centric looks at a person first instead of an employee.
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We'll look at AI and say, how can we use AI to make our employees more effective in what they do every day?
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The company that is more employee-centric, in other words, they view employees as a disposable asset.
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Sure.
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We'll look at AI and say, who can we replace with AI?
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Fundamental difference, same question.
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And I think what it is, it's connecting your leaders, managers, person to person, treating them as a human being first.
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And so you think about psychological safety, some of the buzzwords that we hear in the workplace now, they actually do mean something.
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And if you think about it, AI doesn't have a beating heart, it doesn't have empathy, it doesn't have compassion.
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All the ways we connect as humans.
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And so my argument is that's been lost, and we need to find it again.
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Absolutely.
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I can so appreciate that.
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Thank you for kind of distilling down what the differences are and how people use utilize them in an industry.
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Yeah, it's by accident, really.
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I've worked in quite a few different jobs prior to this.
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I was in construction, I was in sales, and I ended up moving to the United States and went back to school.
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And I had this idea, I wanted to be a computer programmer because it was um just before Y2K.
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Yeah.
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And I was thinking, you know, computer programmers can be making bank and blah blah blah.
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And I halfway through the degree, I realized this is horrible.
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I don't enjoy this at all.
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And so I switched directions and did MIS, which is really, you know, management information systems, is how the business uses technology to become more effective.
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And so I got interested in the human and the technical kind of linkage, if you will, the fusion of the two.
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And what I realized is they're looked at very separately.
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And if we look at AI and what's happening today, it's repeating itself.
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And I think the organizations that are going to be successful aren't the ones who adopt AI first to the exclusion of everything else.
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It's going to be the organization that looks at their people capability and what AI can do for them and lift them up together.
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And then when they do that, I think they'll surpass these guys who just went all in on the technology.
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And not unlike what we've seen in the past with the dot-com boom bust, etc.
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Sure.
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So it always fascinated me the human element.
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And so I got more into um I did my master's in organizational leadership, and really that cemented to me where my future lay, which is helping leaders and um organizations to become more effective.
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And essentially, um, I've just did a certification program with John Matone, and it talks about the inner core driving the outer core, and the inner core represents 90% of who we are, but we only see 10%, but you know, like an iceberg.
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You see 20% in terms of behavior and results.
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And so most people, most leaders don't look at that inner core.
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What are my behaviors?
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What are my kind of uh values?
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What drives me?
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They don't think about it, they just focus on that 10%.
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But the people that are most successful, the ones who do look inside and start to really shift how they um show up.
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Wow, I you're yes, I agree with all of that, and I can relate that kind of inner core, outer core piece and that iceberg metaphor to creativity because in the world of creativity, we see that just the peak of the ice, the tip of the iceberg, but underneath is like the creative process that we're all going through.
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I'm curious when you think of creativity, what does it mean to you to be creative?
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Well, for a long time, I assumed creativity belonged to like artists, someone who could play an instrument, for example, or write songs or something like that.
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And it took me an embarrassing number of years to realize that creativity is mostly a way of paying attention, it's noticing the thing everyone else has walked past so often it's gone invisible.
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And that turns out to be most of my job because when you think about a leadership team, they'll describe a problem to me in the exact words they've used a hundred times.
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And my entire contribution is to hand it back to them rearranged.
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Nothing really new gets added, it's just turned until the light hits, basically, right?
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Yeah, and when it lands, the room goes quiet for a second, and that silence is the most creative thing that happens all day.
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Someone has just seen their own situation for the first time.
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So creativity to me isn't really invention, it's it's noticing and then having the nerve to say out loud what you've noticed, at least in my, you know, in my capacity, in my world.
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Absolutely.
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I love that.
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I so appreciate that you have taken creativity into your world because exactly you know, we not everyone lives on a stage or with an instrument, and and yet I believe creativity shows up in all areas of life and careers and platforms and things.
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Thank you.
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So finding that the creativity in the rearranging, or you know, really getting into that um just how we think the um oh, I'm not gonna remember all of those very strategic labels of thinking patterns and how divergent thinking that was the word I was thinking of, um, in terms of like really generating more creative opportunities in our life.
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And in the work that you do, how often are you running into leaders who are struggling to see the rearranged structure?
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Yeah, a lot, basically, because people get stuck in their ways.
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Yeah.
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And the thing about it is what I've realized, a lot of people are very linear thinkers, and and I don't think that way.
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Um if you have a conversation with me over a period of time, we'd be over here and over here, you know.
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I've realized that's in my DNA.
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I can't change it, and I don't want to change it.
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And because what I've found is one of the most satisfying things for me to do is to facilitate strategic planning or the creative process because people realize that they can be unleashed, they they can, you know, let's have some crazy ideas, let's let's ping off, you know, something that's come up.
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And you know, to answer your question, I think a lot of people struggle to be creative because they think it has to be something new and crazy that nobody's ever thought of.
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And I don't think that's the case.
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I think it's looking at a problem, maybe from a different angle, and just coming up with a with a better approach.
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And I think you do that by involving as many people as you can, getting diverse kind of thoughts and having clarity around what it is you're trying to accomplish.
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And that clarity piece is so difficult, I think, for a lot of folks to wrap their heads around.
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And I think one of the fallacies is the end piece has to be polished, it has to be, we have to know, and I don't think you do.
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I think you just need to have some semblance of a finish line, and it may change as you weave your way through to it.
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And you know, that I think that's I don't think there is a creative process, I think it's whatever you want it to be, right?
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Absolutely.
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I I appreciate what you were saying about it not needing to be completely polished because I think that's where so many individuals pause that it needs to be quote unquote perfect, or they have to know every single thing about it before it can go to the next step or layer.
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And I appreciate what you're saying about letting it evolve in real time.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And you know, the John Mattone was interesting to me about when I took the John Mattone um certification, we we did this assessment, and in the assessment, it kind of gives you a gauge of where you're at in certain behaviors and levels.
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And when mine came back, it you know, I was looking at it going, wow, I did pretty good, you know, I felt pretty good about myself.
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And then when John kind of uncovers what each of the areas meant, he said, you're about 37% away from where you could be, which means uh yeah, I'm only 37% of the way there, so I've got 63% of capability left.
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And I was you know, I tend to look at that as not only a challenge, but it's like I've always been an advocate of lifelong learning.
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I love learning different things, new things, and building on other things that I've known.
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And I just look at that and go, wow, but a lot of people who uh it was curious to me in the class I was in, a lot of people came out of it dejected because their score wasn't as high as they wanted it to be or they thought it should be.
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And I was thinking, wow, that's the wrong way to look at it.
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Because don't you think we've been conditioned to look at scores as being, you know, you're you're not good because you didn't score higher.
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And this is just an instrument to help you understand where your capacity could go.
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It wasn't to say you're bad because you only scored this, right?
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And so I just think it's the way we interpret things and the way we've been conditioned over the years to accept things in a certain way, and so yeah, it it really does inspire me when I think of it like that.
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Yeah, that the meaning people make from a score that isn't anywhere in it, but we we it's our interpretation of that number, and yeah, it's so interesting.
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So when you're working with leaders who are kind of struggling to see things differently or wrap their head around a new way of looking at something, what are the are there any tips that you would give someone who is struggling with that in their own business or in their own career?
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Yeah, I'd say take a step back and really digest and and don't rush to do anything radically different for now.
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But really take a step back and understand what the data is really telling you.
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Is it a credible source, for example?
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Is it just something someone said in passing to you?
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Um, you know, and it's really to take stock.
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And I think it's a really hard thing to do, is to do nothing.
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You know, it sounds counterintuitive, right?
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Yeah, but I think that if you take a little step back and see the landscape a little bit, and the way I view it is, and I wish I could remember the name of this, but I don't know if you've ever been to the optician, and they have that little machine, and you're looking at it and they say, What you know, they what about this?
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What about that?
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And they keep changing it until you can see, right?
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And I look at it like that, keep making these little adjustments.
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The way I look at my role is I'm like an organizational or executive chiropractor.
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We make these small little adjustments to ensure the health of the organization or the person, right?
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Yeah, and I I always use the optician kind of analogy because I think it's perfect.
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Because when you know, when you first go in those things, you go, I can't see, it's fuzzy.
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Oh, yeah, that's pretty good.
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And then this eye, oh no, that's not good.
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And so they're constantly making these little adjustments.
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And I, you know, I just had an eye checkup, and it just occurred to me, kind of that's what we do, that's what we should do, because yeah, it just makes sense in the way that you're not making anything drastic changes that are unchangeable back again.
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Whereas you make small incremental ones, that didn't work, so maybe we do this, you know.
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And I just think a lot of people they intuitively or intellectually know what they should be doing.
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It's like if you want to lose weight, you know you've got to expend more calories than you're taking in.
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That you shouldn't be eating that donut, you should really reach for that apple.
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We know that, right?
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So, what is the gap between knowing and doing?
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That's the key, right?
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And and that I and I think that's why I'll always have a job because coaching is the linkage, it's the accountability piece that most people seek because they know what they should be doing for the most part, and having the courage to take that step, take that leap, you know, and one step at a time.
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And so, to answer your question, I would say take a little step back, take stock, talk to some people who you trust, yeah, and then either hold yourself accountable, and if you're not able to do that, then find an accountability partner.
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Like you go to the gym pretty regularly, and I went with a buddy of mine, and we held each other accountable for getting there, and and you know, sometimes I didn't feel like it, and it or he didn't.
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We pushed each other, yeah.
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And that accountability piece is is essential.
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And I think creative process, it you really don't want to do that in isolation.
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I think you need to bounce ideas off people or yeah, you know, yeah.
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I agree.
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I think having a a trusted team within the creative journey is really important.
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I I know that I benefit from it, and I know some people feel that they just want to be an island and do their own creative expression and experience, and I think that that has its place as well.
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But I agree with for me personally, needing that team.
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Yeah, I think when you you do it in isolation, I've done this myself, is you hit a ceiling because you're one person, and then but what what I think is beneficial if you hit that ceiling is then you know don't abandon it, but use that as your springboard to to the next level by engaging other people, other ideas, different ways of doing things.
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Absolutely.
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I I love that.
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And the when you look at the work that you do and your understanding are a piece of what creativity is, how does creativity kind of show up in that space with the work that you do?
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Yeah, I think that's a great question, and I think it shows up all the time because the thing is, every organization's unique, every person's unique.
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And I think if you look at it through that lens, you've got to firstly understand the situation they're in, and the only way you can do that is through dialogue, through conversation, and then also figure out where it is they want to go, and and is that realistic?
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Is it does it make sense?
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Is it doable?
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And if it isn't, then I think you you have to have an honest conversation, say, you know, maybe we need to readjust the finish line here a little bit and have that conversation first before we dive into all the other pieces, and then you get close to the finish line saying, Ah, sorry, it's not gonna happen.
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You know, I think the honest conversations are um essential, and yeah, you know, the first one is with yourself, right?
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If you want to be truly creative, and a lot of creativity, I think, is unglamorous.
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And what I mean by that, you you have this idea, this spark, this this notion.
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And I look at the book, I think the book's quite creative actually, but the actual right end of it was pretty unglamorous, you know.
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And so so that piece, right?
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But it's pushing through and getting it done is the is the clue.
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And then if you look at over time, the people who we regard as geniuses, you know, what is it?
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Thomas Watt invoke invented the light bulb, failed like a thousand times before he finally nailed it.
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So that's not very glamorous, is it?
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I mean, inventing the light bulb, that's pretty unique, pretty, you know, um life-changing.
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Yeah, but I bet you he wouldn't tell you the work that led all the way up to that wasn't so glamorous.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah, the the journey, which is, you know, so has so much creative energy in it.
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Yeah, you know, I think that's we jump over that sometimes to get to that end result.
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And I I hear kind of that step back reflection communication, not only with yourself but with other people as well, is really important in the work that you do.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, and I think it's skills we all have.
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Yeah, some of us it's untapped.
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And you know, I just think that um taking that leap that I spoke about doing, and I'll give you another example from my own world.
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Yes, I always had a fascination with World War II, uh I really have.
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Because I grew up, my parents both fought the war, lived through the war from very young age, like 16 to about 22, six-year span.
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And so I always wanted to write a book about it, and so I have.
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And what's cool about it is um, so I wrote this book, it's called The Shadow Protocol, and it it's the first of 10 books I want to write, and basically it goes from the rise of Nazism in 1933 to about 1940.
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But I'm working with a publishing company and they just made a little movie trailer of it that just blew my mind.
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I'm like, wow, there's no way I could ever done that.
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But you've taken what I've done to the next level, right?
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And so to me, it's That about, you know, and that came out of left field.
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I really wasn't expecting it.
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And so sometimes that if I hadn't written the book, I'd never see the trailer.
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Right.
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And when I think about it, wow, you've some shown my book in a light I never imagined.
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And it's brilliant.
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I love it.
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And and so I and I don't say it to brag, but it just it just shows you what you can do if you put your mind to it and you're willing to let other people in.
00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:27.200
Absolutely.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:31.039
I think that that's a key piece, willing to let other people in.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:46.400
Because oftentimes I think we we protect ourselves by kind of wanting complete ownership of the creative experience or the the product.
00:22:46.799 --> 00:23:00.160
And sometimes when we unclench our grip is when we get to see kind of the next layer or level that it can become that we weren't even thinking of.
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.359
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:04.480
Yeah.
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:12.480
Well, what are the creative avenues or creative things that you are currently practicing in your life?
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:15.200
Well, writing is one of them.
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:19.359
I never thought myself as really a writer.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:26.160
And um I've written, you know, a business book and then one that's really a project of passion, I guess.
00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:26.480
Yeah.
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:34.079
And that's spawned me to look at other things, areas in my life that I feel I can get creative with.
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:36.480
I'll give you another example as well.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:42.319
I always was a very keen soccer player over the years, and ages caught up with me.
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:47.279
So, but I've always watched, and obviously, we just had the World Cup here and what have you.
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:53.119
But I just discovered walking soccer, which is for old people or people who've been injured.
00:23:53.359 --> 00:24:05.519
But we go out there on a Wednesday night, and um there's usually at least a dozen, 14, 15, 16 people, and a lot of people bring their kids, little kids.
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:10.799
And so the cool thing about it is when you walk, you know, anybody can play, basically, right?
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:19.599
So I've not so much that I'm creative, but I'm looking at a creative way to stay in something that I had a passion for over the years, right?
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:22.960
And it's um it's really cool, it's a lot of fun.
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:31.839
Obviously, there's there's no contact, barely any contact, there's yeah, therefore there's no injuries, but it's just a um a cool way to do things.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:38.000
Um, travel has always been um you know something I've embraced and loved throughout my life.
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:40.799
I've lived in three different countries now.
00:24:41.039 --> 00:25:02.160
Um and uh I just like one of the things I think that creative people, you know, I hate to say creative people because I think everyone has creativity in their DNA if they want to serve, but I think creative people embrace change more than those that don't express their creative side.
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:05.839
I love change, you know, and a lot of people call it ambiguity.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:06.319
Love that.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:11.599
I don't I like not knowing what the next day is gonna bring or what's round the corner and all that stuff.
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:18.559
But a lot of people I know they want to know what's happening the next hour, the next day, the next week.
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:20.319
I don't like that personally.
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:31.680
And if that's part of your creative DNA, maybe it just I think creative people that we call creative people, they just wear it on their sleeve a bit more than than those that don't.
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:42.880
And you know, I just think that um people sometimes they grow up in an environment where it's not encouraged, either in the workplace or in the their home or school.
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:47.599
You know, if you look at school, for example, it hasn't changed.
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:52.799
Like my kids went through school and it was no different to when I went through school.
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:59.680
Yeah, and it's like surely, you know, everything in the environment has changed so much.
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:01.920
Why hasn't our schooling changed?
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:17.440
And funny enough, I just watched a documentary about this teacher in Tennessee who they they're looking, believe it or not, they're looking at unsolved murders, and he's trying to help solve the murders in the classroom with these high school kids.
00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:26.960
Wow, and they're so engaged that it's brilliant, just the idea of doing instead of learning theory and memorizing stuff, because we don't have to do that anymore, right?
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:30.400
So if you want to solve a Google equation, just Google it and it's done.
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:34.640
Why do we need to memorize all those equations?
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:38.720
And the answer is we don't, because we've got methods to do that now.
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:46.640
And so what he's doing is helping them, and I think it's creative personally from his part, but also from the kids' part.
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:52.960
Yeah, believe it or not, two or three of the kids in the class now want to be forensic anthropologists and things of that nature.
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.680
Amazing, it's just fabulous, yeah.
00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:57.680
And so things like that draw me in.
00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:08.079
I love that watching the way people have taken something and done something massively different to try and stimulate something else.
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:08.960
I love it.
00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:15.359
I I love that creative people in quotes embrace change because that that speaks to my soul as well.
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:16.079
There you go.
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:33.039
That's something that I I enjoy and look for and work on and transitions and trying things, and yeah, the uncertainty can be challenging and it's not debilitating for me.
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:35.440
I think that's the piece.
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:35.920
Yeah.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:40.559
Well, this has been such a fantastic conversation.
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:42.160
I have one last question.
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:42.720
Yep.
00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:46.000
What does it feel like in your body to be creative?
00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:48.319
Wow.
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:51.119
Um, it it's one of those things.
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:55.200
I think someone wrote a book and he called it the zone.
00:27:55.279 --> 00:28:05.279
When you're in the zone, when everything's blocked out and you lose track of time, and you just feel all in.
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:07.279
You know what I mean?
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:09.200
And to me, that's what it feels like.
00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:14.799
Sometimes when I'm writing and I'm, you know, I look up and three hours gone past.
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:16.880
It's like, oh my god, where did that go?
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:20.880
And but I'm so focused and um into it.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:25.839
And then other times I don't feel like writing at all, so I don't I don't try and force it.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:26.960
You know what I mean?
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:33.759
Yeah, and when I've been writing my book, I just visit it when I feel like it, not on a schedule.
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:38.240
And I've read a lot about certain writers who have this block of time and they do this.
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:40.720
Well, what if you don't feel like it, you know?
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:45.920
And so so to me, I'm not on a timeline with my writing, which is nice, I guess.
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.799
If you're a writer, I guess, and that's your full-time passion.
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:59.519
Well, maybe it's different, but for me, it's not, and and I don't want it to become hard work, I want to do it when the creative mind is at its best.
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:12.559
And you know, I think you know, the thing is, um I think finishing things is where the real learning happens, and I think it's the part people skip.
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:19.200
You know, finishing bad thing teaches you more than a beautiful idea you've carried around for a year, right?
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:21.279
And and guard what goes in.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:27.359
Creativity isn't generated out of nothing, it's what happens when things you've taken in collide.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:31.359
So keep taking things in, odd things, crazy things, outside things.
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:38.000
And I think if you lead people, then you watch what happens in an organization.
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:43.119
The first time someone brings you a half-formed idea, it gets picked apart.
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:49.519
You've just taught everyone in that room to bring you only the safe things from their way.
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:53.200
That's how companies end up wondering where all their creative people went.
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:55.839
They didn't go anywhere, they just stopped putting their hands up.
00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:56.559
Right.
00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:57.039
Right?
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:06.880
Yeah, so that's the learning for me is like I I love that you've got a podcast focused on creativity because I think it's an undiscovered gem.
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:22.480
I really and I honestly believe that that the creative side, everybody has it, yeah, but in certain demonstrate in certain ways, and it's inside of them, and our job as people, leaders, and managers is to bring that out.
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:26.559
But we can't do that in a commander control environment.
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:34.880
We've got to encourage it, we've got to nourish it, we've got to, you know, like a garden, you've got to give it the right kind of nourishment.
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:36.079
I love it.
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:45.839
Yes, well, you're speaking my language, and so appreciate you taking the time to join me for this conversation.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:53.039
If people want to learn more about your books, the work you have out in the world, your organization, how could they go about doing that?
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:54.880
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity.
00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:59.759
So basically, you contact me at Duncanbrand at iCloud.com.
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:06.240
You can uh search on my website, that's intrinsic-leader.com.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:12.880
Or you can just Google me or LinkedIn, just find me, where hunt me down if you want.
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:18.480
Well, I'll I'll do the hunting and I'll put links in the show notes so people have easy access.
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:20.720
And thank you so much for joining me.
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:22.480
I have thoroughly enjoyed this.
00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:24.240
Likewise, thank you for the invite.
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:25.680
Appreciate it so much.
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:40.160
Thanks for listening to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:43.920
We'd love to keep in touch, so follow us on Facebook and Instagram.
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:46.480
We are at Sustaining Creativity.
00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:53.279
Make sure to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to podcasts, tag your friends and family so they can listen to you.
00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:54.559
We love to hear from you.
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:57.039
So leave your reviews, comments, and questions.
00:31:57.279 --> 00:32:03.759
Check out our website, sustainingcreativity.com, for upcoming offerings and creativity coaching.
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:06.480
Tune in Tuesdays for our next episode.
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:09.359
And remember, with creativity is anything,
00:00:20.399 --> 00:00:22.399
Welcome to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:24.239
I'm your host, Mari Reisberg.
00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:30.879
Over the past several years, I've combined my degrees in acting and somatic psychology to share my sustaining creativity techniques with performers.
00:00:31.039 --> 00:00:34.479
And now I've decided to share with a bigger audience that includes you.
00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:38.960
I believe we are all creative, and this podcast is all about that.
00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:45.359
I'll be interviewing people from all backgrounds, ages, and creativity experiences to share just how creative we all are.
00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:51.439
Today I'll be chatting with Duncan Brand, founder of Intrinsic Leader Consulting Agency and Author.
00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:53.920
Please enjoy Duncan Brand.
00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:09.920
Welcome to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:14.239
Today I'm chatting with Duncan Brand, founder of Intrinsic Leader.
00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:15.760
Welcome to the show.
00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:17.120
Thank you, Murray.
00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:18.640
A pleasure to be here.
00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:21.680
I am so looking forward to our conversation.
00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:24.400
I can't wait to dig into creativity with you.
00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:32.159
But before we get there, why don't you take a couple of moments and let our listeners know a little bit more about who you are and what it is you do.
00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:33.680
Yeah, thanks.
00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:41.040
And so I've founded Intrinsic Leader, which is a really a consulting agency for one of a better expression.
00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:45.840
Basically, we help organizations and leaders become more effective.
00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:49.439
I also wrote a book called Mind the Gap.
00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:59.280
And really the thrust of the book is how organizations need to become more human-centric versus employee-centric.
00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:03.040
And gidden under the need for how do you do that?
00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:08.000
And so the book isn't really, you know, a theoretical textbook type effort.
00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:09.039
It's more of a playbook.
00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:10.000
How do you get there?
00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:11.680
I love that.
00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:20.560
What what kind of show did you align with that being more human-centric versus employee-centric?
00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:24.639
And maybe for listeners who think, well, aren't those the same things?
00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:26.159
Employees are humans.
00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:28.639
How do you differentiate between them?
00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:30.960
Yeah, I don't think it's a great question.
00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:44.159
And the way I always kind of approach that question to make it topical in today's environment is if you look at AI, I think it's going to reveal the true underbelly of an organization.
00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:51.759
What I mean by that is the company that is human-centric looks at a person first instead of an employee.
00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:59.840
We'll look at AI and say, how can we use AI to make our employees more effective in what they do every day?
00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:08.000
The company that is more employee-centric, in other words, they view employees as a disposable asset.
00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:08.400
Sure.
00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:13.120
We'll look at AI and say, who can we replace with AI?
00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:15.919
Fundamental difference, same question.
00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:23.919
And I think what it is, it's connecting your leaders, managers, person to person, treating them as a human being first.
00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:32.879
And so you think about psychological safety, some of the buzzwords that we hear in the workplace now, they actually do mean something.
00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:40.080
And if you think about it, AI doesn't have a beating heart, it doesn't have empathy, it doesn't have compassion.
00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:42.080
All the ways we connect as humans.
00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:47.520
And so my argument is that's been lost, and we need to find it again.
00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:48.639
Absolutely.
00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:50.800
I can so appreciate that.
00:03:50.960 --> 00:04:00.639
Thank you for kind of distilling down what the differences are and how people use utilize them in an industry.
00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:25.839
Yeah, it's by accident, really.
00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:30.319
I've worked in quite a few different jobs prior to this.
00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:38.079
I was in construction, I was in sales, and I ended up moving to the United States and went back to school.
00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:46.000
And I had this idea, I wanted to be a computer programmer because it was um just before Y2K.
00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:46.319
Yeah.
00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:51.279
And I was thinking, you know, computer programmers can be making bank and blah blah blah.
00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:55.839
And I halfway through the degree, I realized this is horrible.
00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:57.680
I don't enjoy this at all.
00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:08.720
And so I switched directions and did MIS, which is really, you know, management information systems, is how the business uses technology to become more effective.
00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:15.519
And so I got interested in the human and the technical kind of linkage, if you will, the fusion of the two.
00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:18.800
And what I realized is they're looked at very separately.
00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:24.480
And if we look at AI and what's happening today, it's repeating itself.
00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:32.720
And I think the organizations that are going to be successful aren't the ones who adopt AI first to the exclusion of everything else.
00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:41.920
It's going to be the organization that looks at their people capability and what AI can do for them and lift them up together.
00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:48.079
And then when they do that, I think they'll surpass these guys who just went all in on the technology.
00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:53.600
And not unlike what we've seen in the past with the dot-com boom bust, etc.
00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:54.319
Sure.
00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:57.519
So it always fascinated me the human element.
00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:12.959
And so I got more into um I did my master's in organizational leadership, and really that cemented to me where my future lay, which is helping leaders and um organizations to become more effective.
00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:29.839
And essentially, um, I've just did a certification program with John Matone, and it talks about the inner core driving the outer core, and the inner core represents 90% of who we are, but we only see 10%, but you know, like an iceberg.
00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:33.920
You see 20% in terms of behavior and results.
00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:39.120
And so most people, most leaders don't look at that inner core.
00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:40.079
What are my behaviors?
00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:42.480
What are my kind of uh values?
00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:43.600
What drives me?
00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:46.720
They don't think about it, they just focus on that 10%.
00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:54.800
But the people that are most successful, the ones who do look inside and start to really shift how they um show up.
00:06:55.360 --> 00:07:17.360
Wow, I you're yes, I agree with all of that, and I can relate that kind of inner core, outer core piece and that iceberg metaphor to creativity because in the world of creativity, we see that just the peak of the ice, the tip of the iceberg, but underneath is like the creative process that we're all going through.
00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:23.680
I'm curious when you think of creativity, what does it mean to you to be creative?
00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:34.720
Well, for a long time, I assumed creativity belonged to like artists, someone who could play an instrument, for example, or write songs or something like that.
00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:49.360
And it took me an embarrassing number of years to realize that creativity is mostly a way of paying attention, it's noticing the thing everyone else has walked past so often it's gone invisible.
00:07:49.680 --> 00:08:01.040
And that turns out to be most of my job because when you think about a leadership team, they'll describe a problem to me in the exact words they've used a hundred times.
00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:07.439
And my entire contribution is to hand it back to them rearranged.
00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:13.519
Nothing really new gets added, it's just turned until the light hits, basically, right?
00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:20.000
Yeah, and when it lands, the room goes quiet for a second, and that silence is the most creative thing that happens all day.
00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:23.759
Someone has just seen their own situation for the first time.
00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:34.960
So creativity to me isn't really invention, it's it's noticing and then having the nerve to say out loud what you've noticed, at least in my, you know, in my capacity, in my world.
00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:35.919
Absolutely.
00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:36.799
I love that.
00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:56.639
I so appreciate that you have taken creativity into your world because exactly you know, we not everyone lives on a stage or with an instrument, and and yet I believe creativity shows up in all areas of life and careers and platforms and things.
00:08:58.399 --> 00:08:58.879
Thank you.
00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:31.919
So finding that the creativity in the rearranging, or you know, really getting into that um just how we think the um oh, I'm not gonna remember all of those very strategic labels of thinking patterns and how divergent thinking that was the word I was thinking of, um, in terms of like really generating more creative opportunities in our life.
00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:45.360
And in the work that you do, how often are you running into leaders who are struggling to see the rearranged structure?
00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:50.240
Yeah, a lot, basically, because people get stuck in their ways.
00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:50.720
Yeah.
00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:57.519
And the thing about it is what I've realized, a lot of people are very linear thinkers, and and I don't think that way.
00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:02.000
Um if you have a conversation with me over a period of time, we'd be over here and over here, you know.
00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:05.039
I've realized that's in my DNA.
00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:07.759
I can't change it, and I don't want to change it.
00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:29.360
And because what I've found is one of the most satisfying things for me to do is to facilitate strategic planning or the creative process because people realize that they can be unleashed, they they can, you know, let's have some crazy ideas, let's let's ping off, you know, something that's come up.
00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:38.639
And you know, to answer your question, I think a lot of people struggle to be creative because they think it has to be something new and crazy that nobody's ever thought of.
00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:40.080
And I don't think that's the case.
00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:46.879
I think it's looking at a problem, maybe from a different angle, and just coming up with a with a better approach.
00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:56.000
And I think you do that by involving as many people as you can, getting diverse kind of thoughts and having clarity around what it is you're trying to accomplish.
00:10:56.159 --> 00:11:02.399
And that clarity piece is so difficult, I think, for a lot of folks to wrap their heads around.
00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:10.000
And I think one of the fallacies is the end piece has to be polished, it has to be, we have to know, and I don't think you do.
00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:17.120
I think you just need to have some semblance of a finish line, and it may change as you weave your way through to it.
00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:24.399
And you know, that I think that's I don't think there is a creative process, I think it's whatever you want it to be, right?
00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:26.320
Absolutely.
00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:46.960
I I appreciate what you were saying about it not needing to be completely polished because I think that's where so many individuals pause that it needs to be quote unquote perfect, or they have to know every single thing about it before it can go to the next step or layer.
00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:54.639
And I appreciate what you're saying about letting it evolve in real time.
00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:57.840
Yeah, absolutely.
00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:13.600
And you know, the John Mattone was interesting to me about when I took the John Mattone um certification, we we did this assessment, and in the assessment, it kind of gives you a gauge of where you're at in certain behaviors and levels.
00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:20.720
And when mine came back, it you know, I was looking at it going, wow, I did pretty good, you know, I felt pretty good about myself.
00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:41.519
And then when John kind of uncovers what each of the areas meant, he said, you're about 37% away from where you could be, which means uh yeah, I'm only 37% of the way there, so I've got 63% of capability left.
00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:48.720
And I was you know, I tend to look at that as not only a challenge, but it's like I've always been an advocate of lifelong learning.
00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:53.039
I love learning different things, new things, and building on other things that I've known.
00:12:53.200 --> 00:13:06.240
And I just look at that and go, wow, but a lot of people who uh it was curious to me in the class I was in, a lot of people came out of it dejected because their score wasn't as high as they wanted it to be or they thought it should be.
00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:09.120
And I was thinking, wow, that's the wrong way to look at it.
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:17.200
Because don't you think we've been conditioned to look at scores as being, you know, you're you're not good because you didn't score higher.
00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:22.159
And this is just an instrument to help you understand where your capacity could go.
00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:25.919
It wasn't to say you're bad because you only scored this, right?
00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:40.159
And so I just think it's the way we interpret things and the way we've been conditioned over the years to accept things in a certain way, and so yeah, it it really does inspire me when I think of it like that.
00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:53.759
Yeah, that the meaning people make from a score that isn't anywhere in it, but we we it's our interpretation of that number, and yeah, it's so interesting.
00:13:53.919 --> 00:14:19.759
So when you're working with leaders who are kind of struggling to see things differently or wrap their head around a new way of looking at something, what are the are there any tips that you would give someone who is struggling with that in their own business or in their own career?
00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:31.759
Yeah, I'd say take a step back and really digest and and don't rush to do anything radically different for now.
00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:36.480
But really take a step back and understand what the data is really telling you.
00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:38.639
Is it a credible source, for example?
00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:42.000
Is it just something someone said in passing to you?
00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:45.120
Um, you know, and it's really to take stock.
00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:48.159
And I think it's a really hard thing to do, is to do nothing.
00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:51.039
You know, it sounds counterintuitive, right?
00:14:51.120 --> 00:15:05.679
Yeah, but I think that if you take a little step back and see the landscape a little bit, and the way I view it is, and I wish I could remember the name of this, but I don't know if you've ever been to the optician, and they have that little machine, and you're looking at it and they say, What you know, they what about this?
00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:06.399
What about that?
00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:09.120
And they keep changing it until you can see, right?
00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:13.279
And I look at it like that, keep making these little adjustments.
00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:20.000
The way I look at my role is I'm like an organizational or executive chiropractor.
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:26.000
We make these small little adjustments to ensure the health of the organization or the person, right?
00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:31.519
Yeah, and I I always use the optician kind of analogy because I think it's perfect.
00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:35.919
Because when you know, when you first go in those things, you go, I can't see, it's fuzzy.
00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:37.120
Oh, yeah, that's pretty good.
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.440
And then this eye, oh no, that's not good.
00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:41.919
And so they're constantly making these little adjustments.
00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:57.759
And I, you know, I just had an eye checkup, and it just occurred to me, kind of that's what we do, that's what we should do, because yeah, it just makes sense in the way that you're not making anything drastic changes that are unchangeable back again.
00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:02.080
Whereas you make small incremental ones, that didn't work, so maybe we do this, you know.
00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:11.440
And I just think a lot of people they intuitively or intellectually know what they should be doing.
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:18.480
It's like if you want to lose weight, you know you've got to expend more calories than you're taking in.
00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:22.480
That you shouldn't be eating that donut, you should really reach for that apple.
00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:23.919
We know that, right?
00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:27.679
So, what is the gap between knowing and doing?
00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:29.600
That's the key, right?
00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:51.120
And and that I and I think that's why I'll always have a job because coaching is the linkage, it's the accountability piece that most people seek because they know what they should be doing for the most part, and having the courage to take that step, take that leap, you know, and one step at a time.
00:16:51.279 --> 00:17:05.839
And so, to answer your question, I would say take a little step back, take stock, talk to some people who you trust, yeah, and then either hold yourself accountable, and if you're not able to do that, then find an accountability partner.
00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:17.119
Like you go to the gym pretty regularly, and I went with a buddy of mine, and we held each other accountable for getting there, and and you know, sometimes I didn't feel like it, and it or he didn't.
00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:19.200
We pushed each other, yeah.
00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:21.839
And that accountability piece is is essential.
00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:27.519
And I think creative process, it you really don't want to do that in isolation.
00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:33.519
I think you need to bounce ideas off people or yeah, you know, yeah.
00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:34.799
I agree.
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:41.279
I think having a a trusted team within the creative journey is really important.
00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:54.079
I I know that I benefit from it, and I know some people feel that they just want to be an island and do their own creative expression and experience, and I think that that has its place as well.
00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:58.880
But I agree with for me personally, needing that team.
00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:18.240
Yeah, I think when you you do it in isolation, I've done this myself, is you hit a ceiling because you're one person, and then but what what I think is beneficial if you hit that ceiling is then you know don't abandon it, but use that as your springboard to to the next level by engaging other people, other ideas, different ways of doing things.
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:20.079
Absolutely.
00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:21.359
I I love that.
00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:38.640
And the when you look at the work that you do and your understanding are a piece of what creativity is, how does creativity kind of show up in that space with the work that you do?
00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:47.839
Yeah, I think that's a great question, and I think it shows up all the time because the thing is, every organization's unique, every person's unique.
00:18:48.160 --> 00:19:03.279
And I think if you look at it through that lens, you've got to firstly understand the situation they're in, and the only way you can do that is through dialogue, through conversation, and then also figure out where it is they want to go, and and is that realistic?
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:04.799
Is it does it make sense?
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:06.160
Is it doable?
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:23.200
And if it isn't, then I think you you have to have an honest conversation, say, you know, maybe we need to readjust the finish line here a little bit and have that conversation first before we dive into all the other pieces, and then you get close to the finish line saying, Ah, sorry, it's not gonna happen.
00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:30.960
You know, I think the honest conversations are um essential, and yeah, you know, the first one is with yourself, right?
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:37.359
If you want to be truly creative, and a lot of creativity, I think, is unglamorous.
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:41.759
And what I mean by that, you you have this idea, this spark, this this notion.
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:50.079
And I look at the book, I think the book's quite creative actually, but the actual right end of it was pretty unglamorous, you know.
00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.720
And so so that piece, right?
00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:58.079
But it's pushing through and getting it done is the is the clue.
00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:03.279
And then if you look at over time, the people who we regard as geniuses, you know, what is it?
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:09.359
Thomas Watt invoke invented the light bulb, failed like a thousand times before he finally nailed it.
00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:11.279
So that's not very glamorous, is it?
00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:18.400
I mean, inventing the light bulb, that's pretty unique, pretty, you know, um life-changing.
00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:24.240
Yeah, but I bet you he wouldn't tell you the work that led all the way up to that wasn't so glamorous.
00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:25.440
Absolutely.
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:33.200
Yeah, the the journey, which is, you know, so has so much creative energy in it.
00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:42.000
Yeah, you know, I think that's we jump over that sometimes to get to that end result.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:54.960
And I I hear kind of that step back reflection communication, not only with yourself but with other people as well, is really important in the work that you do.
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:55.359
Yeah.
00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:57.519
Yeah, and I think it's skills we all have.
00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:00.319
Yeah, some of us it's untapped.
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:10.720
And you know, I just think that um taking that leap that I spoke about doing, and I'll give you another example from my own world.
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:15.279
Yes, I always had a fascination with World War II, uh I really have.
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:25.039
Because I grew up, my parents both fought the war, lived through the war from very young age, like 16 to about 22, six-year span.
00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:28.960
And so I always wanted to write a book about it, and so I have.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:45.039
And what's cool about it is um, so I wrote this book, it's called The Shadow Protocol, and it it's the first of 10 books I want to write, and basically it goes from the rise of Nazism in 1933 to about 1940.
00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:51.680
But I'm working with a publishing company and they just made a little movie trailer of it that just blew my mind.
00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:54.720
I'm like, wow, there's no way I could ever done that.
00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:57.759
But you've taken what I've done to the next level, right?
00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:03.039
And so to me, it's That about, you know, and that came out of left field.
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:04.880
I really wasn't expecting it.
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:08.880
And so sometimes that if I hadn't written the book, I'd never see the trailer.
00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:09.279
Right.
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:14.000
And when I think about it, wow, you've some shown my book in a light I never imagined.
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:14.960
And it's brilliant.
00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:15.680
I love it.
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:26.240
And and so I and I don't say it to brag, but it just it just shows you what you can do if you put your mind to it and you're willing to let other people in.
00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:27.200
Absolutely.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:31.039
I think that that's a key piece, willing to let other people in.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:46.400
Because oftentimes I think we we protect ourselves by kind of wanting complete ownership of the creative experience or the the product.
00:22:46.799 --> 00:23:00.160
And sometimes when we unclench our grip is when we get to see kind of the next layer or level that it can become that we weren't even thinking of.
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.359
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:04.480
Yeah.
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:12.480
Well, what are the creative avenues or creative things that you are currently practicing in your life?
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:15.200
Well, writing is one of them.
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:19.359
I never thought myself as really a writer.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:26.160
And um I've written, you know, a business book and then one that's really a project of passion, I guess.
00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:26.480
Yeah.
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:34.079
And that's spawned me to look at other things, areas in my life that I feel I can get creative with.
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:36.480
I'll give you another example as well.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:42.319
I always was a very keen soccer player over the years, and ages caught up with me.
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:47.279
So, but I've always watched, and obviously, we just had the World Cup here and what have you.
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:53.119
But I just discovered walking soccer, which is for old people or people who've been injured.
00:23:53.359 --> 00:24:05.519
But we go out there on a Wednesday night, and um there's usually at least a dozen, 14, 15, 16 people, and a lot of people bring their kids, little kids.
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:10.799
And so the cool thing about it is when you walk, you know, anybody can play, basically, right?
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:19.599
So I've not so much that I'm creative, but I'm looking at a creative way to stay in something that I had a passion for over the years, right?
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:22.960
And it's um it's really cool, it's a lot of fun.
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:31.839
Obviously, there's there's no contact, barely any contact, there's yeah, therefore there's no injuries, but it's just a um a cool way to do things.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:38.000
Um, travel has always been um you know something I've embraced and loved throughout my life.
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:40.799
I've lived in three different countries now.
00:24:41.039 --> 00:25:02.160
Um and uh I just like one of the things I think that creative people, you know, I hate to say creative people because I think everyone has creativity in their DNA if they want to serve, but I think creative people embrace change more than those that don't express their creative side.
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:05.839
I love change, you know, and a lot of people call it ambiguity.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:06.319
Love that.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:11.599
I don't I like not knowing what the next day is gonna bring or what's round the corner and all that stuff.
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:18.559
But a lot of people I know they want to know what's happening the next hour, the next day, the next week.
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:20.319
I don't like that personally.
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:31.680
And if that's part of your creative DNA, maybe it just I think creative people that we call creative people, they just wear it on their sleeve a bit more than than those that don't.
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:42.880
And you know, I just think that um people sometimes they grow up in an environment where it's not encouraged, either in the workplace or in the their home or school.
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:47.599
You know, if you look at school, for example, it hasn't changed.
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:52.799
Like my kids went through school and it was no different to when I went through school.
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:59.680
Yeah, and it's like surely, you know, everything in the environment has changed so much.
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:01.920
Why hasn't our schooling changed?
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:17.440
And funny enough, I just watched a documentary about this teacher in Tennessee who they they're looking, believe it or not, they're looking at unsolved murders, and he's trying to help solve the murders in the classroom with these high school kids.
00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:26.960
Wow, and they're so engaged that it's brilliant, just the idea of doing instead of learning theory and memorizing stuff, because we don't have to do that anymore, right?
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:30.400
So if you want to solve a Google equation, just Google it and it's done.
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:34.640
Why do we need to memorize all those equations?
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:38.720
And the answer is we don't, because we've got methods to do that now.
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:46.640
And so what he's doing is helping them, and I think it's creative personally from his part, but also from the kids' part.
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:52.960
Yeah, believe it or not, two or three of the kids in the class now want to be forensic anthropologists and things of that nature.
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.680
Amazing, it's just fabulous, yeah.
00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:57.680
And so things like that draw me in.
00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:08.079
I love that watching the way people have taken something and done something massively different to try and stimulate something else.
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:08.960
I love it.
00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:15.359
I I love that creative people in quotes embrace change because that that speaks to my soul as well.
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:16.079
There you go.
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:33.039
That's something that I I enjoy and look for and work on and transitions and trying things, and yeah, the uncertainty can be challenging and it's not debilitating for me.
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:35.440
I think that's the piece.
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:35.920
Yeah.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:40.559
Well, this has been such a fantastic conversation.
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:42.160
I have one last question.
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:42.720
Yep.
00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:46.000
What does it feel like in your body to be creative?
00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:48.319
Wow.
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:51.119
Um, it it's one of those things.
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:55.200
I think someone wrote a book and he called it the zone.
00:27:55.279 --> 00:28:05.279
When you're in the zone, when everything's blocked out and you lose track of time, and you just feel all in.
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:07.279
You know what I mean?
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:09.200
And to me, that's what it feels like.
00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:14.799
Sometimes when I'm writing and I'm, you know, I look up and three hours gone past.
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:16.880
It's like, oh my god, where did that go?
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:20.880
And but I'm so focused and um into it.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:25.839
And then other times I don't feel like writing at all, so I don't I don't try and force it.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:26.960
You know what I mean?
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:33.759
Yeah, and when I've been writing my book, I just visit it when I feel like it, not on a schedule.
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:38.240
And I've read a lot about certain writers who have this block of time and they do this.
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:40.720
Well, what if you don't feel like it, you know?
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:45.920
And so so to me, I'm not on a timeline with my writing, which is nice, I guess.
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.799
If you're a writer, I guess, and that's your full-time passion.
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:59.519
Well, maybe it's different, but for me, it's not, and and I don't want it to become hard work, I want to do it when the creative mind is at its best.
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:12.559
And you know, I think you know, the thing is, um I think finishing things is where the real learning happens, and I think it's the part people skip.
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:19.200
You know, finishing bad thing teaches you more than a beautiful idea you've carried around for a year, right?
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:21.279
And and guard what goes in.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:27.359
Creativity isn't generated out of nothing, it's what happens when things you've taken in collide.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:31.359
So keep taking things in, odd things, crazy things, outside things.
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:38.000
And I think if you lead people, then you watch what happens in an organization.
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:43.119
The first time someone brings you a half-formed idea, it gets picked apart.
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:49.519
You've just taught everyone in that room to bring you only the safe things from their way.
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:53.200
That's how companies end up wondering where all their creative people went.
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:55.839
They didn't go anywhere, they just stopped putting their hands up.
00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:56.559
Right.
00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:57.039
Right?
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:06.880
Yeah, so that's the learning for me is like I I love that you've got a podcast focused on creativity because I think it's an undiscovered gem.
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:22.480
I really and I honestly believe that that the creative side, everybody has it, yeah, but in certain demonstrate in certain ways, and it's inside of them, and our job as people, leaders, and managers is to bring that out.
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:26.559
But we can't do that in a commander control environment.
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:34.880
We've got to encourage it, we've got to nourish it, we've got to, you know, like a garden, you've got to give it the right kind of nourishment.
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:36.079
I love it.
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:45.839
Yes, well, you're speaking my language, and so appreciate you taking the time to join me for this conversation.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:53.039
If people want to learn more about your books, the work you have out in the world, your organization, how could they go about doing that?
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:54.880
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity.
00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:59.759
So basically, you contact me at Duncanbrand at iCloud.com.
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:06.240
You can uh search on my website, that's intrinsic-leader.com.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:12.880
Or you can just Google me or LinkedIn, just find me, where hunt me down if you want.
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:18.480
Well, I'll I'll do the hunting and I'll put links in the show notes so people have easy access.
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:20.720
And thank you so much for joining me.
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:22.480
I have thoroughly enjoyed this.
00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:24.240
Likewise, thank you for the invite.
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:25.680
Appreciate it so much.
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:40.160
Thanks for listening to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:43.920
We'd love to keep in touch, so follow us on Facebook and Instagram.
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:46.480
We are at Sustaining Creativity.
00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:53.279
Make sure to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to podcasts, tag your friends and family so they can listen to you.
00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:54.559
We love to hear from you.
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:57.039
So leave your reviews, comments, and questions.
00:31:57.279 --> 00:32:03.759
Check out our website, sustainingcreativity.com, for upcoming offerings and creativity coaching.
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:06.480
Tune in Tuesdays for our next episode.
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:09.359
And remember, with creativity is anything,
