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Hi welcome to Secrets Worth Sharing
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a series all about
having practical and approachable advice
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on talking about childhood sexual abuse,
but with serious joy.
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I'm Sophia, a survivor and a designer,
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and this episode is all about child
sexual abuse and humour.
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And for that, I'm joined by wonderful
stand up comedian Jonny Pelham.
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Hello. It's really lovely to be here.
Thank you, thank you.
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So, who are you?
Why’re you sitting on this chair?
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Well, I'm a stand up comedian
who has written a show
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about my experience of child sexual abuse,
which is a lot funnier than it sounds.
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In this section, we're going to share
a couple of practical do's and don'ts
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for talking about childhood sexual abuse,
particularly when it comes to humour.
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So, Johnny,
should we start with the negative?
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So what are some of the don'ts
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when it comes to talking about child
sexual abuse and humor?
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One of the big ones is don't do it
in a sort of crass, insensitive way.
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And I guess what I mean by that is more
so when when you tell people often people
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try and make a joke
to try and get rid of the anxiety.
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And I guess sometimes, you know,
you need to allow the person to be heard.
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Comedy is great when it's connecting.
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And so if you connect with the person,
you can find humor.
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That's great, and it happens organically.
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But you know, the amount of
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times over told people have just gone
to some like horrible joke like
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Well, I always knew you a bit fucking weird
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you know, I mean, you know,
I mean I just like
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and it is, it's coming from a good place
of trying to like destress,
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but actually sometimes
you just need to sit in the moment
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of someone telling you about
what's happened to them.
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Do people now
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joke to you about your own experiences
because you have done that yourself?
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Yes, they do, and I guess
I'm completely fine with that actually,
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because I'm quite emotionally dead inside,
so I'm quite able to like,
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not be very affected by,
what happened to me consciously.
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This is not
what we're advising our listeners.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Don't be dead inside
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Be... Advised on being dead inside.
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It really numbs everything quite nicely.
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And again, with that, I think
it's all about trust and connections.
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And there's some friends
who I implicitly know really, really well,
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and I feel completely fine
with them doing it.
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And then I'm doing like a radio interview
with someone and he made a crass joke
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I don't care, actually.
But afterwards I think that's crazy.
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I thought it was, and again he was
he was freaking out and was trying to
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chuck blanket over the fire in himself
and try to make a joke.
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Yeah, I guess it's not necessarily
always a pass
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for you to just joke
along with the whole subject willy nilly.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, I have a don't
that is kind of similar in terms of like,
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don't be crass with it.
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Yeah.
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Don't use kids in your comedy.
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Basically in 2013.
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Yeah, there was a video online
and it was put on Funny or Die.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And it was by two comedians,
Tiffany Haddish.
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And Aries Spears it was about a skit about
what goes through the mind of a paedophile.
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Yeah.
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So basically,
Tiffany Haddish is acting as a mom,
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and she's leaving her seven year old son,
who's pretty much scantily
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naked throughout the whole skit
in, like, underwear,
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who's just come out of the bath
kind of thing
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and leaves him with Aries Spears’
character, and basically she's like,
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oh, thank you so much for looking after
my son.
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And Aries Spears’ character is playing
like a sex offender, essentially.
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And then the whole rest of this
clip is like him rubbing baby
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oil into the child,
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or like watching the child
through a newspaper with little eyeholes
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cut out as as he plays,
like half naked with toys on the floor.
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And is it, is it real?
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It's really happened.
Oh my God.
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As in is
is the child, was there really a child?
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There's a child acting in it.
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Yeah, that's so creepy.
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It's sort of beyond belief
then that even needs to be said not to do.
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I know, but you know what?
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I just don't put anything past people nowadays
Yeah, yeah I can't.
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That's crazy. Isn't it. Yeah.
Because this happened in 2013.
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And basically there was another incident
with the boys sister where Tiffany Haddish
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basically showed her a video of someone
eating a sandwich in a very sexual way,
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and then asked her to repeat it on camera.
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And then in 2022, once these kids had
grown up, they basically filed a lawsuit
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against Tiffany and Aries to be like,
you've caused us significant trauma.
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Yeah.
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And then that got plastered
all over the press as like,
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these two are sex offenders.
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And there was a whole hoo ha about it.
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And then the original two people
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that they withtrackted
their accusation,
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and they basically were like,
we're gonna settle this
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like we don't want
to prosecute any further.
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And I think regardless of what
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you think about that
case, children can't consent to comedy,
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especially
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when they're of a sexual nature,
regardless of the intention there either
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it was to like,
take the piss out of paedophilic behaviour
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or child sexual offenders or whatever
it is.
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You are still recreating a situation
where you're putting that child in harm.
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If there's no fakery about it.
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To the child, it feels like the only time
we ever talk about child sexual abuse
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is when we're joking about pedophiles
or child sex offenders.
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And it's yeah, like,
this is a very extreme example.
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What happens when you take that way
too far
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I really agree with that.
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I mean, the example of actually having
a child and rubbing lotion
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into them with paedophilic thoughts
happening is beyond belief really
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But I think even on a lesser scale,
I think it's something that comedians
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need to think about
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is how much do you bring
children into your material?
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Because even completely sidestepping
that child sexual abuse question, it's
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still a
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you still bringing them into something
they can't consent to
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and talking about them in a way.
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And so, I mean, that's like a gray line.
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But what you're talking about
feels actually crazy that that happened.
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Putting that into the conversation
that children aren't consenting
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to these pictures or these videos
your putting up online
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is something that should be discussed.
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Who knows where that line gets drawn.
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Yeah,
but it's a good conversation to be having.
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And that kind of leads me to my second don’t
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don't joke about the person's
experience of abuse.
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Joke about society and the way it responds.
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Yeah, that's great. I wish that was mine.
Really? That's the best one.
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And that's what I did in my show.
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And when people say, you can't talk about
sexual abuse, if people are messaging me
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saying, this isn't funny, this is awful,
how can you talk about this?
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That's exactly what they're missing,
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is that I'm not talking about
what happened to me as an eight year old.
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I'm talking about what happened to me.
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Who the person that led me to be,
and then how society,
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and we don't know how to deal with this
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And there's loads of humour in that.
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But you're right.
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There's nothing funny about the fact
that me or you were sexually abused.
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So, yeah, society's
reaction is where the humour lies
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Yeah. And I'm you know what?
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I'd even go as far as to say, like,
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sometimes the only thing I could do
was laugh about it because I was like,
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this situation is so batty that, like,
all I can do is just have a laugh.
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Otherwise I would just burst into tears.
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And that's not helpful at that moment.
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I mean exactly the same thing.
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And then when I was trying to have
a Tinder profile and I was like, do I put,
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child sexual abuse
victim who's never had sex, you know,
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if someone's into that,
they're not the right person.
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Well, you know, I mean, it's like what?
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Like, how do you like humour is a way.
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It's such a good way to deal with it
because you deal with dark things by
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because you're like, the alternative to humour is just, I mean, really sad.
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You know what I mean?
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And I'm actually like,
you can again, that's
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one of the things
about doing on the Apollo
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and things is
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I think no one wants to have really
serious, depressing conversations.
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And so if you limit child sexual abuse
to a space where we can only talk about
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in those ways,
you limit it to really intense
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negative things, then you go, right,
that was crap.
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I've talked to my
now I'll never do that again.
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And actually one of the ways
to make this mainstream,
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oh, you know, like conversations
by mainstream is to talk about it in ways
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where there's tonal variety,
and it doesn't mean
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you don't need those intense,
serious conversation.
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You know, the first time you tell people
probably is going to be really intense.
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But then if you want to live with
this is part of your identity,
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you probably do need to find a way
to talk about it.
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That isn't going to mean that,
you know, your days ruined.
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Have you got any more don’ts?
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The other don’t is quite specific
to comedy, but is don't heckle.
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How often people think people heckle
is much less than they actually do
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on the whole in comedy
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But, when I disclose my abuse,
a lot of people would heckle.
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I would say on a on a percentage
more people.
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And I think it's exactly what I was saying
earlier about people
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freaking out about something
that they can't control.
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And so they would shout something out
to try and dispel the anxiety.
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Either the audience or they’re feeling.
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And what that does is it
I thought a lot about what
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I'm saying, and I've crafted it,
and spent time to make it a certain way.
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And then interrupting that,
it turns it into,
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there's a need there to dilute something.
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And so I guess I would say
if you do go to a comedy show
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and somebody starts disclosing anything,
well, firstly, just don't heckle,
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particularly when your, when someone's
disclosing something that is quite
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personal is just don't dive in
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people thinking that me saying
the word abuse or
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saying the word paedophile
means that I'm going to make a crass joke
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when actually I'm saying, actually,
this is my lived experience
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and I'm able to talk about it
and make jokes about it in my stand up
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I say something like, I'm
going to talk about for the next hour,
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and if you do want to leave,
that's totally fine.
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And you want me picked on
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So I'm basically saying you can leave
if you want.
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Yeah, because I don't want someone sat
there for an hour having an awful time.
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Yeah.
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I'm worried
that if they leave, I'm going to slam them
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I always
forget because there's that whole joke
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about not sitting in the front row
either, isn't it?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I think it's important because, you know,
I've no desire to make someone feel
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uncomfortable in any way.
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Which I guess leads onto the do's.
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Yes. Are there any positive do's
that you think people should do
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and they're talking about child sex abuse?
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I guess, it’s to just go in
with an open heart and mind.
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Really.
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I guess it's such a taboo topic
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to try and let yourself hear
what the person is saying rather than
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bringing in your own
presuppositions
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or your own biases or your own thoughts about it
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that are normally going
to be incredibly negative.
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So I think that I think that's
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really just to try and hear it
in a way that is authentic.
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One of the things that you just said
earlier that I think is a great do, is
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do you give people an option
to get out of the conversation or to leave
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Because I actually never occurred to me
before about the whole thing about people
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leaving getting picked on.
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But yeah,
imagine that being a very real fear.
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And you already know
that you're going to be talking about
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a topic that's either controversial
or not talked about often.
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And I think what's great is you said in
your comedy, you can you can leave now.
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You're not going to get picked
on. That's totally fine.
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It creates a safety without it
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being overly focused on the person
and how they're going to respond.
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Totally. Yeah, yeah.
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And I think, I think one of the things I
this is made me do
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about just allowing people
to have different reactions,
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you know, I think that's why
when people are critical of my work,
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I don't feel like fuck them
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I just feel like. That's alright.
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We we don't know how to talk about this
as a society
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You think I'm doing it in the wrong way?
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That's totally cool,
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because it's so personal and so difficult,
and we're all figuring it out.
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No one knows how to do this really
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Beacuse a few of my friends got annoyed with
some of the people saying negative thing.
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I just think that's how they're managing
whatever they're managing in their lives.
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And it's probably not healthy that they’re on
Twitter, calling me a twat, but...
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But that's sort of their own thing,
isn't it?
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Really? Yeah. That's so graceful Jonny
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I mean, to be honest, I'm not big enough
of a platform to, like, warrant that
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enough trolls yet. Hopefully it grows
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You want those trolls
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I want them trolls because it means I’m growing
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But, you know,
like when when people call you,
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like a trauma dumper
or that this isn't really helping anybody.
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And those conversations can be intensely
tricky for me.
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Or for example, when your personal
experience becomes politicized.
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Yeah.
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For example, there's a whole thing about
right wing politicians taking trans people
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and like painting them out
to be sex offenders
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and all of that kind of thing, which I'm
totally not about on this platform.
00:11:48:21 - 00:11:52:18
But sometimes my work gets shared
and all of that
00:11:52:18 - 00:11:56:06
by those individuals, and I worry
about what's going to happen next with it.
00:11:56:06 - 00:12:00:17
Well, anyone who's on Twitter,
having a go at you it’s like
00:12:00:17 - 00:12:02:19
What's happening in their life,
you know what I mean?
00:12:02:19 - 00:12:04:07
Like, they're not thriving.
00:12:04:07 - 00:12:06:23
I would suggest
I can really imagine, though.
00:12:06:23 - 00:12:10:24
Your work being use politically campaigning
for things that you don't agree with.
00:12:10:24 - 00:12:12:05
That would be very difficult.
00:12:12:05 - 00:12:15:05
Yeah, because that feels like the like
the power of the troll
00:12:15:14 - 00:12:19:03
is nothing
whereas the power of the politician.
00:12:19:19 - 00:12:20:24
You actually then sweat.
00:12:20:24 - 00:12:23:24
I find that very hard. Yeah.
Beacause I’d want to be like
00:12:24:08 - 00:12:27:11
Yeah, yeah. It’s like I don't want to be part of this movement
00:12:27:13 - 00:12:28:11
Another do
00:12:28:11 - 00:12:32:24
would be questioning how we talk about child sexual abuse so often in comedy
00:12:33:05 - 00:12:37:07
and the amount of times I’m...
particularly a new material gig
00:12:37:07 - 00:12:41:17
and the joke is extreme
sexual violence towards children or women.
00:12:41:24 - 00:12:42:23
You know, it's crazy about it is
00:12:42:23 - 00:12:47:02
you know how many men, it is normally men,
you know, like 90% of the time.
00:12:47:10 - 00:12:50:09
They're like 40
and they have kids and a job
00:12:50:09 - 00:12:52:08
and they get into the open mics in
and they just start talking
00:12:52:08 - 00:12:56:09
about how they’ve got a kid in their basement,
and they think it's like, funny
00:12:56:09 - 00:13:00:11
and what is the really fascinating thing
about is you've talked to them off stage
00:13:00:20 - 00:13:05:13
and they'll be warm,
chatty, clearly a loving dad whatever.
00:13:05:24 - 00:13:08:18
And then they go on stage
and they’re just talking about
00:13:08:18 - 00:13:13:05
joking about fucking kids and raping,
you know, prostitutes, whatever.
00:13:13:13 - 00:13:15:02
And it goes back to power.
00:13:15:02 - 00:13:19:00
I know I keep going on about your
experiences and the way you use comedy
00:13:19:00 - 00:13:20:05
to tell your story. Right.
00:13:20:05 - 00:13:23:06
But like, we need to think about
what the power is there.
00:13:23:06 - 00:13:26:12
Like if you are someone
who statistically way more likely
00:13:26:12 - 00:13:30:14
to lock a kid in a basement
or to rape a woman or whatever it is,
00:13:31:01 - 00:13:34:02
and then you're just bashing around,
like pulling on that statistic
00:13:34:02 - 00:13:36:14
and laughing about what actually
are you serving there?
00:13:36:14 - 00:13:38:11
I completely agree.
00:13:38:11 - 00:13:41:19
And I think also it’s about lived experience
isn't that, you know, I can talk about it
00:13:41:20 - 00:13:44:20
because I've had the experience
and I can talk about in a nuanced way
00:13:44:20 - 00:13:48:11
whereas if the if the punch line is...
Never have apunch line really
00:13:48:11 - 00:13:50:05
where the joke is
I fucked a kid
00:13:52:15 - 00:13:54:05
do you know what I find really challenging?
00:13:54:05 - 00:13:57:23
Because like, we were recording this
just after the whole Russell Brand thing
00:13:57:23 - 00:14:00:24
and all of those scandals coming out
and even just looking back
00:14:00:24 - 00:14:04:01
at his comedy now when he defends it, it's
00:14:04:01 - 00:14:07:01
very like, oh,
but I'm just a sexual person hahaha
00:14:07:01 - 00:14:09:05
I don't understand
what's funny about it it’s like,
00:14:09:05 - 00:14:11:12
you're using the camaraderie
of being a comedian
00:14:11:12 - 00:14:14:22
to continually push the boundaries,
and then it's no longer an act.
00:14:14:22 - 00:14:15:24
Then it is abuse.
00:14:15:24 - 00:14:19:17
I've seen him just roll up and, like, kiss
presenters, that's not a joke anymore.
00:14:19:17 - 00:14:23:13
You're using the joke as a guise
to actually do those abusive behaviours.
00:14:23:18 - 00:14:25:15
As a comedian, I would say you have to
00:14:25:15 - 00:14:29:21
justify every joke you tell on stage, just be very clear
00:14:29:24 - 00:14:36:02
about every joke, having,
a political ramification and just knowing
00:14:36:03 - 00:14:40:09
and and being sure you can justify
what you say, at least to yourself.
00:14:40:10 - 00:14:42:15
And that's really
the only person you can check with.
00:14:42:15 - 00:14:45:12
I guess. I'd love to know
what you think about this.
00:14:45:12 - 00:14:49:07
So you talk about comedians
starting out and finding their voice.
00:14:49:12 - 00:14:52:13
I can imagine when you're writing
those kinds of jokes,
00:14:52:13 - 00:14:55:13
you're like, okay, what is something
that's a guaranteed giggle?
00:14:55:16 - 00:14:56:24
Child sex offenders.
00:14:56:24 - 00:14:58:10
Everyone knows it's safe
00:14:58:10 - 00:15:02:08
material in the sense that it's societally
a very frowned upon thing.
00:15:02:08 - 00:15:04:16
It's very easy
to make them the butt of the joke.
00:15:04:16 - 00:15:08:00
It's a kind of way to get in a few quick,
cheap gags, kind of thing
00:15:08:00 - 00:15:09:22
And, you know,
I've seen it done really well.
00:15:09:22 - 00:15:12:18
Then there's a
there's an element when it gets too far,
00:15:12:18 - 00:15:15:15
or there's an element
when it stifles other conversations,
00:15:15:15 - 00:15:17:19
like other material
related to child sexual abuse
00:15:17:19 - 00:15:20:09
that then doesn't get a voice
because of all of the nonce jokes
00:15:20:09 - 00:15:22:05
Yeah, I think you're completely right.
00:15:22:05 - 00:15:23:24
It's a very good way to get a laugh.
00:15:23:24 - 00:15:26:24
If you put Jimmy Savile at the
end of a line, it will get him reaction.
00:15:27:06 - 00:15:31:09
You know what I mean, and so I think there is still,
a need particularly
00:15:31:10 - 00:15:34:24
I think when you're finding your voice,
you just go to the quickest way.
00:15:35:01 - 00:15:36:17
Comedians need the right to fail.
00:15:36:17 - 00:15:41:16
Because I guess I've been very reticent to
try and like, police what comedians say.
00:15:42:19 - 00:15:46:05
But I do think comedians
should be accountable for what they say.
00:15:46:11 - 00:15:48:15
And the problem with
it is it's very hard to make any hard
00:15:48:15 - 00:15:50:23
and fast rules
because it's always nuanced.
00:15:50:23 - 00:15:53:18
Yeah. Which leads me to my final do. Yeah.
00:15:53:18 - 00:15:57:15
Which is do
remember that comedy is a hopeful outlet.
00:15:57:23 - 00:16:00:23
We've talked about it
many a time on this podcast.
00:16:01:04 - 00:16:04:13
We need more ways
to have this conversation safely,
00:16:04:13 - 00:16:07:22
practically approachable,
joyfully, lightheartedly.
00:16:08:07 - 00:16:10:04
All of the ways
that you don't typically think
00:16:10:04 - 00:16:11:23
a conversation on child
sexual be should run.
00:16:11:23 - 00:16:15:16
And so remember that comedy
is another form of having that outlet.
00:16:15:16 - 00:16:20:15
And I think that I my Edinburgh show in 2018
was a hopeful show and began with me
00:16:20:15 - 00:16:23:21
talking about how I was sexually abused
a child, didn’t have sex until I was 25.
00:16:23:21 - 00:16:27:02
I was living in a squat,
daydreamed all the time.
00:16:27:11 - 00:16:30:05
And then I went to therapy,
and then it ended with me
00:16:30:05 - 00:16:33:05
in a relationship having regular sex.
00:16:33:08 - 00:16:35:12
I love that. Yeah.
00:16:35:12 - 00:16:39:10
Banging 24/7. I mean obviously
not otherwise I wouldn’t be here
00:16:40:10 - 00:16:41:20
The politics comes out
00:16:41:20 - 00:16:44:20
of that hope, like you say, because then it's
like, look, this happened for me.
00:16:44:20 - 00:16:47:13
And if we can stop talking about this,
we can help other people,
00:16:47:13 - 00:16:48:17
and we can start having a society
00:16:48:17 - 00:16:50:08
We can better society.
00:16:50:08 - 00:16:53:04
And so you’re right, comedy is hopeful
00:16:53:04 - 00:16:56:24
You need to be in the right place
to come public with this story.
00:16:56:24 - 00:17:00:11
So it felt like a natural time for you
It did.
00:17:00:11 - 00:17:01:13
And I mean, that's
something I would say is
00:17:01:13 - 00:17:04:13
if you're going to disclose something personal,
really think about the consequences of it.
00:17:04:15 - 00:17:05:02
Yeah.
00:17:05:02 - 00:17:08:19
And really make sure you are prepared
because,
00:17:10:03 - 00:17:13:03
yeah, you can find yourself on Apollo
00:17:14:15 - 00:17:15:12
What a flex
00:17:15:12 - 00:17:17:13
What a way to end it
00:17:17:13 - 00:17:20:05
Thank you so much, Jonny,
for coming and chatting with me.
00:17:20:05 - 00:17:22:10
I've learned so much. I've had a laugh.
00:17:22:10 - 00:17:23:15
It's been great.
00:17:23:15 - 00:17:25:19
It's such a fantastic thing you do.
00:17:25:19 - 00:17:28:03
I thnk it’s really brilliant so well done.
Thank you.
00:19:05:14 - 00:19:06:01
I made a
00:19:06:01 - 00:19:09:01
joke to my fiance the other day,
but I was basically like.
00:19:09:02 - 00:19:12:16
I just want to make it really clear
that if you turn out to be a pedophile, I.
00:19:12:22 - 00:19:16:19
That I am leaving, and that comes from
a very, like, personal place.
00:19:16:19 - 00:19:19:07
And that's seeing what happens
when people stay with pedophiles
00:19:19:07 - 00:19:21:13
and stay with sex offenders
and stuff like that.
00:19:21:13 - 00:19:25:19
And like obviously I many as a joke,
but like having that conversation
00:19:25:19 - 00:19:29:05
really early with your partner
and just being like, how do you feel about
00:19:29:17 - 00:19:30:13
talking to your kids?
00:19:30:13 - 00:19:34:11
Because he was like, I've always seen it
as being like, children are innocent
00:19:34:11 - 00:19:36:11
and you have to protect them
and blow it up.
00:19:36:11 - 00:19:38:21
But actually, like you,
you're an example of someone
00:19:38:21 - 00:19:41:15
who grew up with that kind of upbringing,
but you still got abused.
00:19:41:15 - 00:19:44:05
So where do I stand
now? We've had a very active conversation.
00:19:44:05 - 00:19:46:09
I think, at least for me,
like getting married to
00:19:46:09 - 00:19:48:05
someone was such a moment
where I was like, right,
00:19:48:05 - 00:19:50:21
I want to understand how they feel
about this, this and this.
00:19:50:21 - 00:19:53:18
Yeah.
And you know, he's on board. So. Yeah.
00:19:53:18 - 00:19:57:01
And and the way and the way I started
that conversation was with a joke.
00:19:57:01 - 00:20:00:01
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Well comedy's connection.
00:20:00:05 - 00:20:00:14
Yeah.
00:20:00:14 - 00:20:04:00
I use Absolute Car Company as a connection
between you and the audience.
00:20:04:00 - 00:20:05:02
And then we connect.
00:20:05:02 - 00:20:06:12
And that's such a great way to begin.
00:20:06:12 - 00:20:08:09
Any conversation needs to go.
00:20:08:09 - 00:20:10:18
We can laugh and smile and joke.
00:20:10:18 - 00:20:12:21
And now let's talk about something
serious.
00:20:12:21 - 00:20:17:24
And I think you right I think that idea of
kids being innocent is so prevalent.
00:20:17:24 - 00:20:20:24
But you can maintain innocence and safety.
00:20:21:09 - 00:20:23:17
You know, they're not mutually exclusive.
00:20:23:17 - 00:20:23:24
Yeah.
00:20:23:24 - 00:20:26:22
You can say to a child,
if if someone does this,
00:20:26:22 - 00:20:30:04
you need to tell me without saying,
because they might even it.
00:20:32:12 - 00:20:32:21
Yeah.
00:20:32:21 - 00:20:36:08
And so yeah, I don't
think they're mutually exclusive at all.
00:20:37:22 - 00:20:39:18
Thank you so much for watching.
00:20:39:18 - 00:20:42:12
I always end by saying,
if you tell at least one person
00:20:42:12 - 00:20:44:19
that you've seen
or listen to this podcast,
00:20:44:19 - 00:20:46:12
you never know
where you're going to end up,
00:20:46:12 - 00:20:49:09
and you could really be offering an outlet
for someone to talk about.
00:20:49:09 - 00:20:50:06
And that can be funny.
00:20:50:06 - 00:20:52:04
So absolutely go for it.
00:20:52:04 - 00:20:54:04
I'll see you in the next episode. Bye.
Hi welcome to Secrets Worth Sharing
00:00:05:08 - 00:00:08:05
a series all about
having practical and approachable advice
00:00:08:05 - 00:00:11:05
on talking about childhood sexual abuse,
but with serious joy.
00:00:11:17 - 00:00:14:06
I'm Sophia, a survivor and a designer,
00:00:14:06 - 00:00:17:24
and this episode is all about child
sexual abuse and humour.
00:00:18:05 - 00:00:21:19
And for that, I'm joined by wonderful
stand up comedian Jonny Pelham.
00:00:21:21 - 00:00:24:10
Hello. It's really lovely to be here.
Thank you, thank you.
00:00:24:10 - 00:00:27:07
So, who are you?
Why’re you sitting on this chair?
00:00:27:07 - 00:00:30:17
Well, I'm a stand up comedian
who has written a show
00:00:30:17 - 00:00:34:21
about my experience of child sexual abuse,
which is a lot funnier than it sounds.
00:00:35:03 - 00:00:38:11
In this section, we're going to share
a couple of practical do's and don'ts
00:00:38:11 - 00:00:41:19
for talking about childhood sexual abuse,
particularly when it comes to humour.
00:00:42:06 - 00:00:44:22
So, Johnny,
should we start with the negative?
00:00:44:22 - 00:00:46:13
So what are some of the don'ts
00:00:46:13 - 00:00:49:13
when it comes to talking about child
sexual abuse and humor?
00:00:49:21 - 00:00:55:01
One of the big ones is don't do it
in a sort of crass, insensitive way.
00:00:55:01 - 00:00:59:17
And I guess what I mean by that is more
so when when you tell people often people
00:00:59:17 - 00:01:02:17
try and make a joke
to try and get rid of the anxiety.
00:01:02:17 - 00:01:06:05
And I guess sometimes, you know,
you need to allow the person to be heard.
00:01:06:06 - 00:01:07:22
Comedy is great when it's connecting.
00:01:07:22 - 00:01:10:09
And so if you connect with the person,
you can find humor.
00:01:10:09 - 00:01:12:19
That's great, and it happens organically.
00:01:12:19 - 00:01:13:17
But you know, the amount of
00:01:13:17 - 00:01:17:11
times over told people have just gone
to some like horrible joke like
00:01:17:11 - 00:01:19:01
Well, I always knew you a bit fucking weird
00:01:19:01 - 00:01:20:14
you know, I mean, you know,
I mean I just like
00:01:20:14 - 00:01:24:21
and it is, it's coming from a good place
of trying to like destress,
00:01:25:10 - 00:01:28:10
but actually sometimes
you just need to sit in the moment
00:01:28:10 - 00:01:30:03
of someone telling you about
what's happened to them.
00:01:30:03 - 00:01:30:24
Do people now
00:01:30:24 - 00:01:34:16
joke to you about your own experiences
because you have done that yourself?
00:01:35:10 - 00:01:39:18
Yes, they do, and I guess
I'm completely fine with that actually,
00:01:40:00 - 00:01:43:15
because I'm quite emotionally dead inside,
so I'm quite able to like,
00:01:43:15 - 00:01:47:02
not be very affected by,
what happened to me consciously.
00:01:47:03 - 00:01:48:19
This is not
what we're advising our listeners.
00:01:48:19 - 00:01:49:07
Yeah, yeah.
00:01:49:07 - 00:01:50:06
Don't be dead inside
00:01:50:06 - 00:01:53:09
Be... Advised on being dead inside.
00:01:53:09 - 00:01:56:03
It really numbs everything quite nicely.
00:01:56:03 - 00:01:58:15
And again, with that, I think
it's all about trust and connections.
00:01:58:15 - 00:02:01:15
And there's some friends
who I implicitly know really, really well,
00:02:01:22 - 00:02:03:22
and I feel completely fine
with them doing it.
00:02:03:22 - 00:02:09:02
And then I'm doing like a radio interview
with someone and he made a crass joke
00:02:09:03 - 00:02:11:24
I don't care, actually.
But afterwards I think that's crazy.
00:02:11:24 - 00:02:16:14
I thought it was, and again he was
he was freaking out and was trying to
00:02:16:21 - 00:02:21:06
chuck blanket over the fire in himself
and try to make a joke.
00:02:21:07 - 00:02:24:07
Yeah, I guess it's not necessarily
always a pass
00:02:24:07 - 00:02:27:07
for you to just joke
along with the whole subject willy nilly.
00:02:27:18 - 00:02:28:07
Exactly.
00:02:28:07 - 00:02:32:01
Yeah, I have a don't
that is kind of similar in terms of like,
00:02:32:09 - 00:02:33:15
don't be crass with it.
00:02:33:15 - 00:02:33:23
Yeah.
00:02:33:23 - 00:02:36:05
Don't use kids in your comedy.
00:02:36:05 - 00:02:37:18
Basically in 2013.
00:02:37:18 - 00:02:41:14
Yeah, there was a video online
and it was put on Funny or Die.
00:02:41:14 - 00:02:42:05
Yeah, yeah.
00:02:42:05 - 00:02:45:00
And it was by two comedians,
Tiffany Haddish.
00:02:45:00 - 00:02:49:04
And Aries Spears it was about a skit about
what goes through the mind of a paedophile.
00:02:49:04 - 00:02:49:12
Yeah.
00:02:49:12 - 00:02:52:12
So basically,
Tiffany Haddish is acting as a mom,
00:02:52:12 - 00:02:56:11
and she's leaving her seven year old son,
who's pretty much scantily
00:02:56:11 - 00:02:59:01
naked throughout the whole skit
in, like, underwear,
00:02:59:01 - 00:03:00:23
who's just come out of the bath
kind of thing
00:03:00:23 - 00:03:04:22
and leaves him with Aries Spears’
character, and basically she's like,
00:03:04:22 - 00:03:06:21
oh, thank you so much for looking after
my son.
00:03:06:21 - 00:03:10:12
And Aries Spears’ character is playing
like a sex offender, essentially.
00:03:10:18 - 00:03:14:11
And then the whole rest of this
clip is like him rubbing baby
00:03:14:11 - 00:03:15:14
oil into the child,
00:03:15:14 - 00:03:19:03
or like watching the child
through a newspaper with little eyeholes
00:03:19:03 - 00:03:22:18
cut out as as he plays,
like half naked with toys on the floor.
00:03:22:20 - 00:03:24:16
And is it, is it real?
00:03:24:16 - 00:03:26:16
It's really happened.
Oh my God.
00:03:26:16 - 00:03:29:19
As in is
is the child, was there really a child?
00:03:29:20 - 00:03:31:08
There's a child acting in it.
00:03:31:08 - 00:03:33:12
Yeah, that's so creepy.
00:03:33:12 - 00:03:36:20
It's sort of beyond belief
then that even needs to be said not to do.
00:03:38:11 - 00:03:39:07
I know, but you know what?
00:03:39:07 - 00:03:42:06
I just don't put anything past people nowadays
Yeah, yeah I can't.
00:03:42:06 - 00:03:44:22
That's crazy. Isn't it. Yeah.
Because this happened in 2013.
00:03:44:22 - 00:03:49:15
And basically there was another incident
with the boys sister where Tiffany Haddish
00:03:49:15 - 00:03:54:05
basically showed her a video of someone
eating a sandwich in a very sexual way,
00:03:54:05 - 00:03:55:24
and then asked her to repeat it on camera.
00:03:55:24 - 00:04:01:10
And then in 2022, once these kids had
grown up, they basically filed a lawsuit
00:04:01:10 - 00:04:05:19
against Tiffany and Aries to be like,
you've caused us significant trauma.
00:04:05:20 - 00:04:06:04
Yeah.
00:04:06:04 - 00:04:08:20
And then that got plastered
all over the press as like,
00:04:08:20 - 00:04:10:08
these two are sex offenders.
00:04:10:08 - 00:04:11:21
And there was a whole hoo ha about it.
00:04:11:21 - 00:04:14:00
And then the original two people
00:04:14:00 - 00:04:16:11
that they withtrackted
their accusation,
00:04:16:11 - 00:04:18:12
and they basically were like,
we're gonna settle this
00:04:18:12 - 00:04:20:17
like we don't want
to prosecute any further.
00:04:20:17 - 00:04:21:22
And I think regardless of what
00:04:21:22 - 00:04:25:17
you think about that
case, children can't consent to comedy,
00:04:25:18 - 00:04:26:17
especially
00:04:26:17 - 00:04:29:21
when they're of a sexual nature,
regardless of the intention there either
00:04:29:21 - 00:04:32:09
it was to like,
take the piss out of paedophilic behaviour
00:04:32:09 - 00:04:34:06
or child sexual offenders or whatever
it is.
00:04:34:06 - 00:04:38:02
You are still recreating a situation
where you're putting that child in harm.
00:04:38:02 - 00:04:39:08
If there's no fakery about it.
00:04:39:08 - 00:04:42:21
To the child, it feels like the only time
we ever talk about child sexual abuse
00:04:42:21 - 00:04:46:06
is when we're joking about pedophiles
or child sex offenders.
00:04:46:06 - 00:04:49:00
And it's yeah, like,
this is a very extreme example.
00:04:49:00 - 00:04:51:00
What happens when you take that way
too far
00:04:51:00 - 00:04:51:21
I really agree with that.
00:04:51:21 - 00:04:55:21
I mean, the example of actually having
a child and rubbing lotion
00:04:55:21 - 00:05:01:06
into them with paedophilic thoughts
happening is beyond belief really
00:05:01:06 - 00:05:05:02
But I think even on a lesser scale,
I think it's something that comedians
00:05:05:02 - 00:05:05:17
need to think about
00:05:05:17 - 00:05:08:17
is how much do you bring
children into your material?
00:05:09:04 - 00:05:13:05
Because even completely sidestepping
that child sexual abuse question, it's
00:05:13:05 - 00:05:13:24
still a
00:05:13:24 - 00:05:16:18
you still bringing them into something
they can't consent to
00:05:16:18 - 00:05:18:17
and talking about them in a way.
00:05:18:17 - 00:05:20:21
And so, I mean, that's like a gray line.
00:05:20:21 - 00:05:23:23
But what you're talking about
feels actually crazy that that happened.
00:05:24:01 - 00:05:27:01
Putting that into the conversation
that children aren't consenting
00:05:27:01 - 00:05:30:01
to these pictures or these videos
your putting up online
00:05:30:18 - 00:05:32:09
is something that should be discussed.
00:05:32:09 - 00:05:34:08
Who knows where that line gets drawn.
00:05:34:08 - 00:05:36:13
Yeah,
but it's a good conversation to be having.
00:05:36:13 - 00:05:38:18
And that kind of leads me to my second don’t
00:05:38:18 - 00:05:42:10
don't joke about the person's
experience of abuse.
00:05:42:10 - 00:05:44:18
Joke about society and the way it responds.
00:05:44:18 - 00:05:47:08
Yeah, that's great. I wish that was mine.
Really? That's the best one.
00:05:47:08 - 00:05:48:12
And that's what I did in my show.
00:05:48:12 - 00:05:51:23
And when people say, you can't talk about
sexual abuse, if people are messaging me
00:05:51:23 - 00:05:54:23
saying, this isn't funny, this is awful,
how can you talk about this?
00:05:55:20 - 00:05:57:23
That's exactly what they're missing,
00:05:57:23 - 00:06:01:07
is that I'm not talking about
what happened to me as an eight year old.
00:06:01:07 - 00:06:02:24
I'm talking about what happened to me.
00:06:02:24 - 00:06:05:21
Who the person that led me to be,
and then how society,
00:06:05:21 - 00:06:07:15
and we don't know how to deal with this
00:06:07:15 - 00:06:09:13
And there's loads of humour in that.
00:06:09:13 - 00:06:10:00
But you're right.
00:06:10:00 - 00:06:13:16
There's nothing funny about the fact
that me or you were sexually abused.
00:06:13:16 - 00:06:16:07
So, yeah, society's
reaction is where the humour lies
00:06:16:07 - 00:06:17:10
Yeah. And I'm you know what?
00:06:17:10 - 00:06:19:09
I'd even go as far as to say, like,
00:06:19:09 - 00:06:22:17
sometimes the only thing I could do
was laugh about it because I was like,
00:06:22:17 - 00:06:26:24
this situation is so batty that, like,
all I can do is just have a laugh.
00:06:26:24 - 00:06:29:06
Otherwise I would just burst into tears.
00:06:29:06 - 00:06:30:18
And that's not helpful at that moment.
00:06:30:18 - 00:06:32:04
I mean exactly the same thing.
00:06:32:04 - 00:06:35:24
And then when I was trying to have
a Tinder profile and I was like, do I put,
00:06:37:19 - 00:06:40:02
child sexual abuse
victim who's never had sex, you know,
00:06:40:02 - 00:06:42:05
if someone's into that,
they're not the right person.
00:06:42:05 - 00:06:43:07
Well, you know, I mean, it's like what?
00:06:43:07 - 00:06:45:18
Like, how do you like humour is a way.
00:06:45:18 - 00:06:49:22
It's such a good way to deal with it
because you deal with dark things by
00:06:50:00 - 00:06:53:09
because you're like, the alternative to humour is just, I mean, really sad.
00:06:54:06 - 00:06:54:17
You know what I mean?
00:06:54:17 - 00:06:56:21
And I'm actually like,
you can again, that's
00:06:56:21 - 00:06:58:17
one of the things
about doing on the Apollo
00:06:58:17 - 00:06:59:08
and things is
00:06:59:08 - 00:07:02:08
I think no one wants to have really
serious, depressing conversations.
00:07:02:14 - 00:07:05:14
And so if you limit child sexual abuse
to a space where we can only talk about
00:07:05:14 - 00:07:09:09
in those ways,
you limit it to really intense
00:07:09:09 - 00:07:11:18
negative things, then you go, right,
that was crap.
00:07:11:18 - 00:07:13:18
I've talked to my
now I'll never do that again.
00:07:13:18 - 00:07:17:09
And actually one of the ways
to make this mainstream,
00:07:17:21 - 00:07:22:20
oh, you know, like conversations
by mainstream is to talk about it in ways
00:07:23:07 - 00:07:27:01
where there's tonal variety,
and it doesn't mean
00:07:27:01 - 00:07:28:22
you don't need those intense,
serious conversation.
00:07:28:22 - 00:07:31:22
You know, the first time you tell people
probably is going to be really intense.
00:07:32:04 - 00:07:34:21
But then if you want to live with
this is part of your identity,
00:07:34:21 - 00:07:37:06
you probably do need to find a way
to talk about it.
00:07:37:06 - 00:07:40:09
That isn't going to mean that,
you know, your days ruined.
00:07:40:14 - 00:07:42:06
Have you got any more don’ts?
00:07:42:06 - 00:07:45:24
The other don’t is quite specific
to comedy, but is don't heckle.
00:07:45:24 - 00:07:50:12
How often people think people heckle
is much less than they actually do
00:07:50:16 - 00:07:51:18
on the whole in comedy
00:07:51:18 - 00:07:56:11
But, when I disclose my abuse,
a lot of people would heckle.
00:07:56:14 - 00:07:59:00
I would say on a on a percentage
more people.
00:07:59:00 - 00:08:01:22
And I think it's exactly what I was saying
earlier about people
00:08:01:22 - 00:08:05:06
freaking out about something
that they can't control.
00:08:05:06 - 00:08:09:03
And so they would shout something out
to try and dispel the anxiety.
00:08:09:03 - 00:08:11:15
Either the audience or they’re feeling.
00:08:11:15 - 00:08:14:23
And what that does is it
I thought a lot about what
00:08:14:23 - 00:08:18:20
I'm saying, and I've crafted it,
and spent time to make it a certain way.
00:08:19:07 - 00:08:22:19
And then interrupting that,
it turns it into,
00:08:23:11 - 00:08:26:11
there's a need there to dilute something.
00:08:26:20 - 00:08:30:17
And so I guess I would say
if you do go to a comedy show
00:08:30:17 - 00:08:33:19
and somebody starts disclosing anything,
well, firstly, just don't heckle,
00:08:34:11 - 00:08:38:15
particularly when your, when someone's
disclosing something that is quite
00:08:38:15 - 00:08:42:01
personal is just don't dive in
00:08:42:16 - 00:08:45:10
people thinking that me saying
the word abuse or
00:08:45:10 - 00:08:48:23
saying the word paedophile
means that I'm going to make a crass joke
00:08:49:04 - 00:08:51:10
when actually I'm saying, actually,
this is my lived experience
00:08:51:10 - 00:08:54:12
and I'm able to talk about it
and make jokes about it in my stand up
00:08:54:12 - 00:08:56:23
I say something like, I'm
going to talk about for the next hour,
00:08:56:23 - 00:08:58:16
and if you do want to leave,
that's totally fine.
00:08:58:16 - 00:08:59:22
And you want me picked on
00:09:00:23 - 00:09:03:02
So I'm basically saying you can leave
if you want.
00:09:03:02 - 00:09:07:04
Yeah, because I don't want someone sat
there for an hour having an awful time.
00:09:07:12 - 00:09:08:05
Yeah.
00:09:08:05 - 00:09:10:17
I'm worried
that if they leave, I'm going to slam them
00:09:11:24 - 00:09:13:16
I always
forget because there's that whole joke
00:09:13:16 - 00:09:15:13
about not sitting in the front row
either, isn't it?
00:09:15:13 - 00:09:17:18
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:09:17:18 - 00:09:20:24
I think it's important because, you know,
I've no desire to make someone feel
00:09:21:15 - 00:09:22:22
uncomfortable in any way.
00:09:22:22 - 00:09:24:20
Which I guess leads onto the do's.
00:09:24:20 - 00:09:28:23
Yes. Are there any positive do's
that you think people should do
00:09:28:23 - 00:09:30:05
and they're talking about child sex abuse?
00:09:30:05 - 00:09:34:13
I guess, it’s to just go in
with an open heart and mind.
00:09:34:13 - 00:09:35:06
Really.
00:09:35:06 - 00:09:36:15
I guess it's such a taboo topic
00:09:36:15 - 00:09:40:10
to try and let yourself hear
what the person is saying rather than
00:09:40:10 - 00:09:42:08
bringing in your own
presuppositions
00:09:42:08 - 00:09:44:24
or your own biases or your own thoughts about it
00:09:44:24 - 00:09:46:19
that are normally going
to be incredibly negative.
00:09:46:19 - 00:09:47:22
So I think that I think that's
00:09:47:22 - 00:09:51:13
really just to try and hear it
in a way that is authentic.
00:09:51:20 - 00:09:55:20
One of the things that you just said
earlier that I think is a great do, is
00:09:56:00 - 00:10:00:08
do you give people an option
to get out of the conversation or to leave
00:10:00:08 - 00:10:04:04
Because I actually never occurred to me
before about the whole thing about people
00:10:04:08 - 00:10:05:12
leaving getting picked on.
00:10:05:12 - 00:10:07:14
But yeah,
imagine that being a very real fear.
00:10:07:14 - 00:10:10:14
And you already know
that you're going to be talking about
00:10:10:14 - 00:10:13:15
a topic that's either controversial
or not talked about often.
00:10:13:15 - 00:10:17:06
And I think what's great is you said in
your comedy, you can you can leave now.
00:10:17:17 - 00:10:19:21
You're not going to get picked
on. That's totally fine.
00:10:19:21 - 00:10:21:12
It creates a safety without it
00:10:21:12 - 00:10:25:22
being overly focused on the person
and how they're going to respond.
00:10:25:23 - 00:10:27:14
Totally. Yeah, yeah.
00:10:27:14 - 00:10:30:21
And I think, I think one of the things I
this is made me do
00:10:30:24 - 00:10:34:16
about just allowing people
to have different reactions,
00:10:35:11 - 00:10:38:01
you know, I think that's why
when people are critical of my work,
00:10:38:01 - 00:10:41:00
I don't feel like fuck them
00:10:41:00 - 00:10:42:12
I just feel like. That's alright.
00:10:42:12 - 00:10:45:03
We we don't know how to talk about this
as a society
00:10:45:03 - 00:10:47:12
You think I'm doing it in the wrong way?
00:10:47:12 - 00:10:48:06
That's totally cool,
00:10:48:06 - 00:10:52:23
because it's so personal and so difficult,
and we're all figuring it out.
00:10:53:03 - 00:10:55:14
No one knows how to do this really
00:10:55:14 - 00:10:59:16
Beacuse a few of my friends got annoyed with
some of the people saying negative thing.
00:10:59:16 - 00:11:04:01
I just think that's how they're managing
whatever they're managing in their lives.
00:11:04:13 - 00:11:07:24
And it's probably not healthy that they’re on
Twitter, calling me a twat, but...
00:11:08:19 - 00:11:11:04
But that's sort of their own thing,
isn't it?
00:11:11:04 - 00:11:13:24
Really? Yeah. That's so graceful Jonny
00:11:13:24 - 00:11:17:10
I mean, to be honest, I'm not big enough
of a platform to, like, warrant that
00:11:17:10 - 00:11:20:10
enough trolls yet. Hopefully it grows
00:11:20:22 - 00:11:22:02
You want those trolls
00:11:22:02 - 00:11:24:19
I want them trolls because it means I’m growing
00:11:24:19 - 00:11:26:14
But, you know,
like when when people call you,
00:11:26:14 - 00:11:30:02
like a trauma dumper
or that this isn't really helping anybody.
00:11:30:02 - 00:11:34:13
And those conversations can be intensely
tricky for me.
00:11:34:13 - 00:11:38:12
Or for example, when your personal
experience becomes politicized.
00:11:38:13 - 00:11:38:21
Yeah.
00:11:38:21 - 00:11:43:09
For example, there's a whole thing about
right wing politicians taking trans people
00:11:43:09 - 00:11:45:16
and like painting them out
to be sex offenders
00:11:45:16 - 00:11:48:21
and all of that kind of thing, which I'm
totally not about on this platform.
00:11:48:21 - 00:11:52:18
But sometimes my work gets shared
and all of that
00:11:52:18 - 00:11:56:06
by those individuals, and I worry
about what's going to happen next with it.
00:11:56:06 - 00:12:00:17
Well, anyone who's on Twitter,
having a go at you it’s like
00:12:00:17 - 00:12:02:19
What's happening in their life,
you know what I mean?
00:12:02:19 - 00:12:04:07
Like, they're not thriving.
00:12:04:07 - 00:12:06:23
I would suggest
I can really imagine, though.
00:12:06:23 - 00:12:10:24
Your work being use politically campaigning
for things that you don't agree with.
00:12:10:24 - 00:12:12:05
That would be very difficult.
00:12:12:05 - 00:12:15:05
Yeah, because that feels like the like
the power of the troll
00:12:15:14 - 00:12:19:03
is nothing
whereas the power of the politician.
00:12:19:19 - 00:12:20:24
You actually then sweat.
00:12:20:24 - 00:12:23:24
I find that very hard. Yeah.
Beacause I’d want to be like
00:12:24:08 - 00:12:27:11
Yeah, yeah. It’s like I don't want to be part of this movement
00:12:27:13 - 00:12:28:11
Another do
00:12:28:11 - 00:12:32:24
would be questioning how we talk about child sexual abuse so often in comedy
00:12:33:05 - 00:12:37:07
and the amount of times I’m...
particularly a new material gig
00:12:37:07 - 00:12:41:17
and the joke is extreme
sexual violence towards children or women.
00:12:41:24 - 00:12:42:23
You know, it's crazy about it is
00:12:42:23 - 00:12:47:02
you know how many men, it is normally men,
you know, like 90% of the time.
00:12:47:10 - 00:12:50:09
They're like 40
and they have kids and a job
00:12:50:09 - 00:12:52:08
and they get into the open mics in
and they just start talking
00:12:52:08 - 00:12:56:09
about how they’ve got a kid in their basement,
and they think it's like, funny
00:12:56:09 - 00:13:00:11
and what is the really fascinating thing
about is you've talked to them off stage
00:13:00:20 - 00:13:05:13
and they'll be warm,
chatty, clearly a loving dad whatever.
00:13:05:24 - 00:13:08:18
And then they go on stage
and they’re just talking about
00:13:08:18 - 00:13:13:05
joking about fucking kids and raping,
you know, prostitutes, whatever.
00:13:13:13 - 00:13:15:02
And it goes back to power.
00:13:15:02 - 00:13:19:00
I know I keep going on about your
experiences and the way you use comedy
00:13:19:00 - 00:13:20:05
to tell your story. Right.
00:13:20:05 - 00:13:23:06
But like, we need to think about
what the power is there.
00:13:23:06 - 00:13:26:12
Like if you are someone
who statistically way more likely
00:13:26:12 - 00:13:30:14
to lock a kid in a basement
or to rape a woman or whatever it is,
00:13:31:01 - 00:13:34:02
and then you're just bashing around,
like pulling on that statistic
00:13:34:02 - 00:13:36:14
and laughing about what actually
are you serving there?
00:13:36:14 - 00:13:38:11
I completely agree.
00:13:38:11 - 00:13:41:19
And I think also it’s about lived experience
isn't that, you know, I can talk about it
00:13:41:20 - 00:13:44:20
because I've had the experience
and I can talk about in a nuanced way
00:13:44:20 - 00:13:48:11
whereas if the if the punch line is...
Never have apunch line really
00:13:48:11 - 00:13:50:05
where the joke is
I fucked a kid
00:13:52:15 - 00:13:54:05
do you know what I find really challenging?
00:13:54:05 - 00:13:57:23
Because like, we were recording this
just after the whole Russell Brand thing
00:13:57:23 - 00:14:00:24
and all of those scandals coming out
and even just looking back
00:14:00:24 - 00:14:04:01
at his comedy now when he defends it, it's
00:14:04:01 - 00:14:07:01
very like, oh,
but I'm just a sexual person hahaha
00:14:07:01 - 00:14:09:05
I don't understand
what's funny about it it’s like,
00:14:09:05 - 00:14:11:12
you're using the camaraderie
of being a comedian
00:14:11:12 - 00:14:14:22
to continually push the boundaries,
and then it's no longer an act.
00:14:14:22 - 00:14:15:24
Then it is abuse.
00:14:15:24 - 00:14:19:17
I've seen him just roll up and, like, kiss
presenters, that's not a joke anymore.
00:14:19:17 - 00:14:23:13
You're using the joke as a guise
to actually do those abusive behaviours.
00:14:23:18 - 00:14:25:15
As a comedian, I would say you have to
00:14:25:15 - 00:14:29:21
justify every joke you tell on stage, just be very clear
00:14:29:24 - 00:14:36:02
about every joke, having,
a political ramification and just knowing
00:14:36:03 - 00:14:40:09
and and being sure you can justify
what you say, at least to yourself.
00:14:40:10 - 00:14:42:15
And that's really
the only person you can check with.
00:14:42:15 - 00:14:45:12
I guess. I'd love to know
what you think about this.
00:14:45:12 - 00:14:49:07
So you talk about comedians
starting out and finding their voice.
00:14:49:12 - 00:14:52:13
I can imagine when you're writing
those kinds of jokes,
00:14:52:13 - 00:14:55:13
you're like, okay, what is something
that's a guaranteed giggle?
00:14:55:16 - 00:14:56:24
Child sex offenders.
00:14:56:24 - 00:14:58:10
Everyone knows it's safe
00:14:58:10 - 00:15:02:08
material in the sense that it's societally
a very frowned upon thing.
00:15:02:08 - 00:15:04:16
It's very easy
to make them the butt of the joke.
00:15:04:16 - 00:15:08:00
It's a kind of way to get in a few quick,
cheap gags, kind of thing
00:15:08:00 - 00:15:09:22
And, you know,
I've seen it done really well.
00:15:09:22 - 00:15:12:18
Then there's a
there's an element when it gets too far,
00:15:12:18 - 00:15:15:15
or there's an element
when it stifles other conversations,
00:15:15:15 - 00:15:17:19
like other material
related to child sexual abuse
00:15:17:19 - 00:15:20:09
that then doesn't get a voice
because of all of the nonce jokes
00:15:20:09 - 00:15:22:05
Yeah, I think you're completely right.
00:15:22:05 - 00:15:23:24
It's a very good way to get a laugh.
00:15:23:24 - 00:15:26:24
If you put Jimmy Savile at the
end of a line, it will get him reaction.
00:15:27:06 - 00:15:31:09
You know what I mean, and so I think there is still,
a need particularly
00:15:31:10 - 00:15:34:24
I think when you're finding your voice,
you just go to the quickest way.
00:15:35:01 - 00:15:36:17
Comedians need the right to fail.
00:15:36:17 - 00:15:41:16
Because I guess I've been very reticent to
try and like, police what comedians say.
00:15:42:19 - 00:15:46:05
But I do think comedians
should be accountable for what they say.
00:15:46:11 - 00:15:48:15
And the problem with
it is it's very hard to make any hard
00:15:48:15 - 00:15:50:23
and fast rules
because it's always nuanced.
00:15:50:23 - 00:15:53:18
Yeah. Which leads me to my final do. Yeah.
00:15:53:18 - 00:15:57:15
Which is do
remember that comedy is a hopeful outlet.
00:15:57:23 - 00:16:00:23
We've talked about it
many a time on this podcast.
00:16:01:04 - 00:16:04:13
We need more ways
to have this conversation safely,
00:16:04:13 - 00:16:07:22
practically approachable,
joyfully, lightheartedly.
00:16:08:07 - 00:16:10:04
All of the ways
that you don't typically think
00:16:10:04 - 00:16:11:23
a conversation on child
sexual be should run.
00:16:11:23 - 00:16:15:16
And so remember that comedy
is another form of having that outlet.
00:16:15:16 - 00:16:20:15
And I think that I my Edinburgh show in 2018
was a hopeful show and began with me
00:16:20:15 - 00:16:23:21
talking about how I was sexually abused
a child, didn’t have sex until I was 25.
00:16:23:21 - 00:16:27:02
I was living in a squat,
daydreamed all the time.
00:16:27:11 - 00:16:30:05
And then I went to therapy,
and then it ended with me
00:16:30:05 - 00:16:33:05
in a relationship having regular sex.
00:16:33:08 - 00:16:35:12
I love that. Yeah.
00:16:35:12 - 00:16:39:10
Banging 24/7. I mean obviously
not otherwise I wouldn’t be here
00:16:40:10 - 00:16:41:20
The politics comes out
00:16:41:20 - 00:16:44:20
of that hope, like you say, because then it's
like, look, this happened for me.
00:16:44:20 - 00:16:47:13
And if we can stop talking about this,
we can help other people,
00:16:47:13 - 00:16:48:17
and we can start having a society
00:16:48:17 - 00:16:50:08
We can better society.
00:16:50:08 - 00:16:53:04
And so you’re right, comedy is hopeful
00:16:53:04 - 00:16:56:24
You need to be in the right place
to come public with this story.
00:16:56:24 - 00:17:00:11
So it felt like a natural time for you
It did.
00:17:00:11 - 00:17:01:13
And I mean, that's
something I would say is
00:17:01:13 - 00:17:04:13
if you're going to disclose something personal,
really think about the consequences of it.
00:17:04:15 - 00:17:05:02
Yeah.
00:17:05:02 - 00:17:08:19
And really make sure you are prepared
because,
00:17:10:03 - 00:17:13:03
yeah, you can find yourself on Apollo
00:17:14:15 - 00:17:15:12
What a flex
00:17:15:12 - 00:17:17:13
What a way to end it
00:17:17:13 - 00:17:20:05
Thank you so much, Jonny,
for coming and chatting with me.
00:17:20:05 - 00:17:22:10
I've learned so much. I've had a laugh.
00:17:22:10 - 00:17:23:15
It's been great.
00:17:23:15 - 00:17:25:19
It's such a fantastic thing you do.
00:17:25:19 - 00:17:28:03
I thnk it’s really brilliant so well done.
Thank you.
00:19:05:14 - 00:19:06:01
I made a
00:19:06:01 - 00:19:09:01
joke to my fiance the other day,
but I was basically like.
00:19:09:02 - 00:19:12:16
I just want to make it really clear
that if you turn out to be a pedophile, I.
00:19:12:22 - 00:19:16:19
That I am leaving, and that comes from
a very, like, personal place.
00:19:16:19 - 00:19:19:07
And that's seeing what happens
when people stay with pedophiles
00:19:19:07 - 00:19:21:13
and stay with sex offenders
and stuff like that.
00:19:21:13 - 00:19:25:19
And like obviously I many as a joke,
but like having that conversation
00:19:25:19 - 00:19:29:05
really early with your partner
and just being like, how do you feel about
00:19:29:17 - 00:19:30:13
talking to your kids?
00:19:30:13 - 00:19:34:11
Because he was like, I've always seen it
as being like, children are innocent
00:19:34:11 - 00:19:36:11
and you have to protect them
and blow it up.
00:19:36:11 - 00:19:38:21
But actually, like you,
you're an example of someone
00:19:38:21 - 00:19:41:15
who grew up with that kind of upbringing,
but you still got abused.
00:19:41:15 - 00:19:44:05
So where do I stand
now? We've had a very active conversation.
00:19:44:05 - 00:19:46:09
I think, at least for me,
like getting married to
00:19:46:09 - 00:19:48:05
someone was such a moment
where I was like, right,
00:19:48:05 - 00:19:50:21
I want to understand how they feel
about this, this and this.
00:19:50:21 - 00:19:53:18
Yeah.
And you know, he's on board. So. Yeah.
00:19:53:18 - 00:19:57:01
And and the way and the way I started
that conversation was with a joke.
00:19:57:01 - 00:20:00:01
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Well comedy's connection.
00:20:00:05 - 00:20:00:14
Yeah.
00:20:00:14 - 00:20:04:00
I use Absolute Car Company as a connection
between you and the audience.
00:20:04:00 - 00:20:05:02
And then we connect.
00:20:05:02 - 00:20:06:12
And that's such a great way to begin.
00:20:06:12 - 00:20:08:09
Any conversation needs to go.
00:20:08:09 - 00:20:10:18
We can laugh and smile and joke.
00:20:10:18 - 00:20:12:21
And now let's talk about something
serious.
00:20:12:21 - 00:20:17:24
And I think you right I think that idea of
kids being innocent is so prevalent.
00:20:17:24 - 00:20:20:24
But you can maintain innocence and safety.
00:20:21:09 - 00:20:23:17
You know, they're not mutually exclusive.
00:20:23:17 - 00:20:23:24
Yeah.
00:20:23:24 - 00:20:26:22
You can say to a child,
if if someone does this,
00:20:26:22 - 00:20:30:04
you need to tell me without saying,
because they might even it.
00:20:32:12 - 00:20:32:21
Yeah.
00:20:32:21 - 00:20:36:08
And so yeah, I don't
think they're mutually exclusive at all.
00:20:37:22 - 00:20:39:18
Thank you so much for watching.
00:20:39:18 - 00:20:42:12
I always end by saying,
if you tell at least one person
00:20:42:12 - 00:20:44:19
that you've seen
or listen to this podcast,
00:20:44:19 - 00:20:46:12
you never know
where you're going to end up,
00:20:46:12 - 00:20:49:09
and you could really be offering an outlet
for someone to talk about.
00:20:49:09 - 00:20:50:06
And that can be funny.
00:20:50:06 - 00:20:52:04
So absolutely go for it.
00:20:52:04 - 00:20:54:04
I'll see you in the next episode. Bye.
