SELLEST OSAST
Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.
In this episode, Justin interviews Sal Lifrieri, former NYPD detective and director for NYC's Office of Emergency Management during the 9/11 attacks. Sal is the author of the new book, Leading Through Chaos: What Decades in Intelligence, Crisis, and Chaos Taught Me About Leadership. As a security and counterterrorism expert, Sal Lifrieri draws on a 40-year career spanning homicide investigations, hostage negotiations, intelligence operations, emergency management, and corporate security. His experience offers timely lessons on how leaders can anticipate threats, respond decisively, and protect citizens during our most challenging and uncertain moments. Justin and Sal discuss practical, layered security for houses of worship, often involving volunteers, controlling access, and knowing who is entering the building, all while maintaining a spirit of welcome. They discuss what should happen well before a disruption to a service, what responses work if a person disrupts a service, and what roles different respondents, including law enforcement, can play. Sal points out that the best deterrent is intelligence information, and he advises how staff can get information before the service.
Listen for Sal's advice on security teams, pre-planning, and having a well-defined evacuation strategy.
Key Takeaways:
[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.
[:16] About this episode of RIMScast. Our guest is Sal Lifrieri, a security and terrorism expert. We will discuss tips for how to keep houses of worship safe, especially during the High Holy Days. But first…
[:45] RIMS-CRMP: RIMS Certification Week will be held from September 21st through the 25th. There is a link to the events in this episode's show notes, including three free webinars. The week is a global celebration of the RIMS Certified Risk Management Professional certification.
[1:02] It is a virtual event for you to learn about the certification, how it can strengthen your career and organization, and understand how the RIMS-CRMP is shaping the future of risk management.
[1:13] A link to Certification Week is in this episode's show notes. You can also find it at RIMS.org/Webinars.
[1:19] Webinars: There are lots more RIMS Webinars coming up. On September 17th, AXA XL returns to present "Beyond the Loss Count: What Property Claims Reveal about Frequency, Severity, and Resilience."
[1:32] On October 1st, Brown and Brown make their RIMS Webinars debut by discussing "The Future of Captives: What Risk Managers Should Think about Now."
[1:42] Global Risk Consultants will return on October 8th to present "The 2027 Risk Agenda: 10 Engineering Priorities Risk Leaders Should Act on Now".
[1:52] On Oct. 15, Verisk Maplecroft will lead the session "Beyond the Horizon: Turning External Risk Into Decision-Ready Insight".
[2:01] On Oct. 22, Zurich returns to tell us all about "Cybercrime, Fraud and AI: Real-World Threats and Practical Defenses for Business Leaders".
[2:13] Origami Risk returns on October 29th with a session that will be announced shortly.
[2:19] On Nov. 5th, Riskonnect returns to deliver the session "Signal Over Noise: Smarter Risk Analytics". Visit RIMS.org/Webinars to register.
[2:30] RIMS is back on YouTube. Our handle is @RIMSOfficialChannel. We've got plenty of videos there, including RIMScast, RIMScast Canada video podcasts, and other informative and entertaining content from RIMS. Subscribe to the channel today!
[2:48] On with the Show! Our guest today has 40 years of experience leading through high-pressure situations. He is a former New York Police Department Detective 1st Grade.
[3:00] He served on the department's elite Hostage Negotiation Team and later, the Protective Operations Unit within the Intelligence Division, overseeing Protective Intelligence and Threat Investigations for the Mayor of New York City.
[3:14] He is the author of a new book, Leading Through Chaos: What Decades in Intelligence, Crisis and Chaos Taught Me About Leadership. He is here to discuss safety precautions and preparedness for houses of worship.
[3:30] His name is Sal Lifrieri, and you may know him from his RIMS events appearances and sessions.
[3:37] This is going to be a really great dialog, not just for RIMS members, but also for the public, for those individuals who may not be an official risk manager for your house of worship but have to take the lead on ensuring the security and safety of your congregants. Let's get to it!
[3:58] Interview! Sal Lifrieri, welcome to RIMScast!
[4:19] Sal spent 20 years with the NYPD, from Patrol to Anti-crime to the Hostage Negotiation Team, which he regards as the highlight of his career. He went to the Intelligence Division, in charge of the Russian Organized Crime Project, then moved over to Protection.
[5:03] Sal says the Intelligence Division of the NYPD is modeled after the Secret Service. Half the house does Criminal and half the house does Protection. Sal moved to Protection and took over the Threat operations and Intelligence operations for the elected officials and the Mayor.
[5:23] Sal's final assignment was Mayor Giuliani. He took Emergency Management away from the Police Department and created a Mayoral Agency. About seven went over from the NYPD. [5:43] Sal says they sought to create the city's planning for any crisis or disaster. At the time, that was chemical and biological terrorism. They worked on the different threats that came through the city.
[6:00] In January of '01, Sal retired as a Director of Security and Intelligence Operations out of OEM and started a consulting career. 25 years later, he is still at it.
[6:24] Justin says that we're recording this in Early September, and this episode is being released a week after the 25th Anniversary of the September 11th terror attacks.
[6:39] Sal says this anniversary is going to be different, considering that it is 25 years, and with what's going on in the world, the different issues and the volatilities that exist, and the things that are occurring with synagogues and houses of worship across the country and the world.
[7:10] Sal says also, the fact that Rosh Hashanah starts on 9/11 is significant. That confluence of many things escalates the threat profile.
[7:40] Justin says, as a member of a synagogue, in the last 25 years at his temple, he has seen an armed guard outside during the High Holy Days. Justin is at a Reformed temple. For Hebrew School, a security guard checks parent IDs.
[8:06] Justin says, These are things they didn't have to worry about when he was a kid. Clearly, the risk threat has heightened. Sal agrees.
[8:22] Sal says the threat profile has increased, and something problematic is the availability of social media for children. Parents used to hide children from bad things in the world, but today everything is out there and open for discovery by children. Children are no longer as innocent.
[8:53] Justin asks about protection at houses of worship. Sal says you need concentric circles of perimeters, starting from the outside and working your way in. The protection starts weeks and months before any of these events take place.
[9:44] Start looking at inappropriate correspondence that may be coming in and things that are happening at other facilities around you. Look at the congregation. If your congregation has a high-profile individual, that person may be a target. There are several things you have to look at.
[10:12] That planning has to start very early. As you go from the very wide, you start bringing it down closer and closer. It's always great to be able to have law enforcement in front of you, whether a uniformed officer or even just a vehicle. It's definitely a deterrent.
[11:06] Justin says that most houses of worship do not have a dedicated risk manager. The person with that responsibility could be a facilities director, clergy, or a volunteer. He asks what people in that situation should assess first.
[11:37] Sal says people look at threat assessment as Voodoo. For personnel who don't have the expertise, law enforcement credential, or background, ask the building engineer or the guard, "If you were going to do something bad to this place, how would you do it?"
[12:24] Once you can convince them that you're not accusing them, it's incredible what they can tell you. Ask, "Applying common sense, what are those things that you think are problematic and worry about?" They can start developing ideas of what might work well.
[13:01] One of Sal's clients is a prominent synagogue in Manhattan. They were having planning meetings before the High Holy Days. One of the people on the security committee is a volunteer usher. He asked how we could check people in faster as they come in.
[13:26] Sal says you want that feedback. You want them to tell you how things are operating and what they are thinking about. Apply basic logic to what you think might be wrong and go with it. Justin suggests asking someone on the custodial staff because they know the building.
[14:05] Sal says the custodians are the people who, for the most part, get overlooked. They see what's lying on the desk or in the trash, such as inappropriate correspondence that came in. They're a critical element of who should be talked to in a team approach.
[14:33] Justin asks about doors or windows that don't secure properly, such as the shooting in Uvalde, Texas, where the shooter entered through a closed door that was supposed to be locked.
[15:03] Sal says don't rely on Security to give you the total picture. Go to the people using these things every day that can give you a good heads-up about what may be wrong.
[15:19] A Quick Break! Many fantastic RIMS events are coming up in 2026. The 11th Annual Chicagoland Risk Forum will return to the Old Post Office on Thursday, September 24th, 2026. Visit ChicagolandRiskForum.org for more information.
[15:35] The RIMS Western Regional Conference will be held from October 4th through the 7th in Seattle, Washington. The agenda is live, and registration is open. Visit RIMSWesternRegional.com and the link in this episode's show notes for more information.
[15:52] Save the dates: October 18th through the 21st. In Quebec City, we will be hosting the 50th Annual RIMS Canada Conference. Booth sales are open, and sponsorship opportunities are still available. Visit RIMSCanadaConference.ca for more information.
[16:10] Also, remember to check out RIMS.org/Canada for our spinoff show, RIMScast Canada, with a new episode every month.
[16:18] The RIMS ERM Conference 2026 will be held on November 19th and 20th in Columbus, Ohio. Registration is open. Visit RIMS.org/ERM2026.
[16:31] We're already looking to RISKWORLD 2027, which will be held over four days in New Orleans, Louisiana, from April 18th through the 21st! RISKWORLD 2027 Member-only Registration will open on November 4th, and General Registration will open on December 2nd.
[16:49] Get first access to the hotel block. Hotel reservations open on October 28th, ahead of public registration. Sitting this out is the real risk! The link to registration is in this episode's show notes.
[17:03] Let's Return to Our Interview with Security Expert Sal Lifrieri!
[17:10] Justin asks about the balance of keeping a house of worship secure but also maintaining a spirit of openness, welcoming, and handicap accessibility.
[17:27] Sal says that's the biggest difficulty with any house of worship. You don't want to have the armed camp, yet you want the security. Trying to balance that is difficult. It's a matter of establishing the policies and protocols.
[17:50] Sal says one thing they've done at the synagogue in Manhattan is called the Trusted Traveler Program. If you're a member of the congregation, you have a ticket with a QR code and ID that you are the person on the ticket; you don't have to worry about magnetometers; you're in.
[18:22] If you're unknown, or don't have a ticket, you go to a Will Call window and go through better screening.
[18:32] If someone seems out of place, you can talk with them. Sal does security training programs, teaching that you can walk up to people and engage them in conversation. If they're up to no good, they will move on. If they're really lost, it becomes a great visitor interaction.
[19:38] From the security side, you're able to garner more intelligence information from that interaction to make your decision as to what you want to do. If you're just watching and you're not interacting with them, you have no idea what's going on.
[20:00] You want to make your determinations based on intelligence information you're going to garner. The only way you're going to get it is by interacting with that person.
[20:21] Justin asks about someone becoming disruptive during a service. What should staff and volunteers be trained to recognize in those first, critical moments? Sal says you should already have met with leadership and decided: If this happens, then what?
[21:09] Some rabbis have decided not to be physical. Let them say their piece and get it over with, and then ask them to leave, and hope they leave.
[21:32] Sal has seen situations where multiple people will infiltrate. One will get up and start yelling and protesting, and you get that person out, and another one pops up, and then another one pops up. It continues for five or six people.
[21:57] Sal says, going back to preplanning, was there any inappropriate correspondence that had come through? Was there anything on social media that indicated that there may be a problem?
[22:10] A lot of times, people will see things and say, it's a nut; leave it alone. They'll hit delete, or they'll throw the letter out, never understanding that these things have a natural progression.
[22:24] Sal quotes the U.S. Secret Service: Nobody just snaps. It's the slow progression of time, of failing to do things.
[22:34] Before they become operational, they're going to write an email; they're going to write a letter. There may be a phone call. There may be things that are going to give you an indication that we may have a problem here.
[22:47] Sal shares a case of a recent event where someone stood up, started protesting, and assaulted a congregant and a security officer. The after-action report determined he wasn't a member of the congregation, but it was an open, non-ticketed event, so he was able to get in.
[23:27] Sal thinks more investigation is needed. Did he just happen to show up, or was there some indication that this was going to happen? It comes down to your planning before the event.
[24:02] Sal says it comes down to organization. You can bring in a consultant like Sal, but the consultant is not going to be there all the time. You want to create a team, including IT.
[24:38] If something happens during a streamed service, Sal recommends shutting the stream off so supporters of the protesting individual or group don't get to watch it. You don't want the protest to go viral.
[24:57] Sal says a rabbi at one synagogue didn't want any comments to be posted. Sal wants to see the comments. If someone is posting death threats in the middle of a service, you want that intelligence information. You want to know what's going on in the background.
[25:28] It's dealing with the AV team, IT, the custodians, and the rabbi ahead of time. If we have to evacuate, where's the best place to go? How do we do it most effectively? It's creating that plan. If you're trying to create the response in the middle of a crisis, you're way too late.
[25:55] You have to have a plan ahead of time. You need to know the local law enforcement officers ahead of time. They need to understand you. You need to understand the rules they're under. With demonstrations, it's a very touchy situation. Demonstrators have a right to protest.
[26:18] Sal says, depending on what part of the country you are in, and what cities you are in, there are rules of engagement for law enforcement to follow. Sometimes, that's in direct conflict with what the facility wants.
[26:31] Those things have to be ironed out and discussed ahead of time so there's no mystery about what happens, if it happens.
[26:38] Justin says the protesting can happen outside the location, not inside. Once you're inside, your right to free speech is minimized.
[26:48] Sal says, you go through the process of explaining to them, especially if it's an open event; once they're in, and they've been disruptive, you're advising them they have to leave. If they don't, they violate a trespassing act and can be arrested for trespassing.
[27:16] That turns into a negotiation in the middle of a protest. In NYC, it involves multiple levels of law enforcement hierarchy and then giving the protester 30 minutes to end before effecting an arrest. In the middle of a service, dealing with all of this could become highly problematic.
[28:05] Sal says that what you really need to do is establish policies and protocols ahead of time. Identify what the potential risks are and the issues you may face. Overcome the hurdles of thinking it will never happen here and the budget.
[29:04] What's the risk, and how much money do we have to spend on it? The two have to balance each other.
[29:14] Sal is annoyed when consultants come in and identify outrageous risks with outrageous requirements that the client could never mitigate. It's a defense plan so that if anything went bad, the consultant can say they told you.
[29:45] You have to modify it into a reasonable plan. What are the risks that could seriously potentially happen? What are the things we need to do to mitigate them? How do we apply a budget effectively?
[30:02] Justin says these are great tips. We've got plenty of holidays coming up across all religions. This is an evergreen episode for us.
[30:24] Justin says the security for any house of worship relies heavily on volunteers a lot of the time. Is there a good practice or training sequence to hand off the baton from one volunteer to the next, especially if there's frequent turnover?
[30:40] Sal says, good communication, have volunteers on the security committee, and as they get their feet under them, get some practice, and do reviews after an event or High Holy Day: What did we do right, what did we do wrong, and what are the things we could do better?
[31:13] Pass the baton to the next person and work with them. Sal says his experience with that has been positive. You see them talking to each other in a concerted effort to make things better.
[31:44] Sal says a couple of years ago we used printed tickets, and now we deploy technology to track who's coming in and can marry that data with any inappropriate correspondence or investigations we may be incurring for people who have been identified as potential problems.
[32:17] Sal says being able to marry those two technologies together is something that has been growing in the right direction. As the risks evolve and become more prominent, facilities, especially houses of worship, are starting to take risks a little more seriously.
[32:38] Houses of worship are recognizing they need to step up and do things that could make them safer. At the same time, you develop an incredible sense of community when you have a bunch of people willing to get together, work towards a common goal, and learn something.
[33:00] Sal says unfortunately, these risks occur, but the positive side is that it's bringing the communities together and giving them the opportunity to tighten up their security.
[33:15] One more Quick Break! RIMS, The Foundation for Risk ManagementTM, is dedicated to shaping the future of the profession. By making a contribution, you are strengthening the global risk management community and investing in the future of the industry.
[33:34] The Foundation also supports the Spencer Educational Foundation but has a different mission. The Foundation focuses on providing opportunities for those professionals who have already decided to enter risk management and are just getting started.
[33:49] You can learn more about the Foundation by visiting www.RIMS.org/FRM.
While you're there, be sure to check out information about the Susan Meltzer Scholarship Fund, which was established to honor Ms. Meltzer, who was RIMS President in 1999 and 2000.
[34:07] Susan Meltzer was a cherished RIMS President and contributed so much to RIMS and the greater risk community. Learn more at RIMS.org/FRM.
[34:16] Let's Return to Our Interview with Security Expert Sal Lifrieri!
[34:31] Justin mentions that Sal has been a presence at RISKWORLD and local RIMS chapter events. Sal says he had the privilege to talk to a RIMS conference in Austin. It was a great experience. He also did a couple of talks for a local chapter.
[35:02] Sal says the RIMS organization is picture-perfect for education, training, and leadership for people in risk management. He says, you go to give a talk and inevitably, walk away learning things yourself that you can deploy. He says it's been great and looks forward to doing it again.
[35:35] Sal says when he talks at a RIMS event, the attendees are dealing with the risks; they want to hear about the risks, they want to hear about how we identify those risks, and what we do for mitigation of the risks.
[36:03] Sal says everybody likes the intelligence component behind it. How do you identify that risk? How do you find a needle in a haystack? You're talking to people who are doing this on a daily basis. They have a vested interest in what you're talking about.
[36:48] Justin talks about risk managers needing to hear the bad news so they can prevent it for their own organizations. Sal says they walk into the CEO's or CFO's office and have to tell them, these are the risks; these are the problems.
[36:59] The General Counsel doesn't want to hear it. The CFO doesn't want to pay for it. The COO sees it as another risk to worry about. The risk manager is in an incredibly difficult position. Everybody wants to duck and cover when they see the risk manager coming.
[37:25] Sal says, on the flip side, if they do the proper planning and proper mitigation, and enough resource allocation, and address all of that, then they wind up mitigating a lot of problems that could decimate a company. The message sometimes gets lost in the C-Suite.
[38:00] Justin mentions sports arenas. Sal says for a sports arena, you have 50, 60, or 100,000 people showing up for an event. How do you get them in? How do you get them out? Sal recalls the shooting in Las Vegas from the hotel. What was the planning for evacuating 20,000?
[38:59] Justin asks how to handle a situation that is outside. At the time of recording, they are in the pre-planning for 9/11 security. One of Sal's clients is the developer of the World Trade Center. They have four buildings on site. 100,000 people will attend the memorial service.
[33:33] Sal says they are also looking at the possibility of protests. How do you deal with protests with the potential to go violent? What's the continuity-of-operations plan? One of the benefits is that it's on Friday and there is not a lot of occupancy anticipated in the buildings.
[40:05] If something happens, what do you do with the people? Sal says when he was in OEM, there was a huge blizzard. The mayor decided to close everything down at 3:00 and send everybody home.
[40:27] They called the head of the MTA to come to City Hall. He told him he couldn't do it; they didn't have the staffing to move hundreds of thousands of people out of the city at 3:00 p.m. They would have needed a day's planning. 60,000 people would be left at Grand Central Station.
[41:09] Sal says you can make decisions and recommendations of what you want, but you have to think about secondary impacts. How do you move people? Where do you put them? You don't want a knee-jerk to one crisis to develop a second crisis.
[41:29] If you do it the first time, you'll do it the second time; if you do it the second, you'll do it the third. Then before you know it, you're so far downrange you forgot what started the first crisis, and you're trying to deal with something that should have never occurred.
[42:13] Sal advises on leadership in a crisis. One of the keys in his book, Leading Through Chaos, is, first, to check your ego at the door. You need the ability to stop and think. Sometimes people in leadership positions think that they have to have all the answers. That's not the case.
[42:45] A lot of times, you're dealing with situations that are totally foreign to you, that you've had no experience dealing with. Be willing to stop and take a deep breath. Take a good listen to what is going on.
[43:32] Everybody around you is willing to help. You have to be able to take that advice. That's what makes you a great leader: letting the people around you do what they do best.
[43:27] Sal, it's been an insightful discussion. I want to thank you for joining us here on RIMScast.
[43:36] Special thanks again to Sal Lifriere for joining us here on RIMScast! Remember to check out his book, Leading Through Chaos: What Decades in Intelligence, Crisis, and Chaos Taught Me About Leadership. Hopefully, we see him at another RIMS event in 2027.
[43:52] Plug Time! Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email membershipdept@RIMS.org for more information.
[44:10] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.
[44:25] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.
[44:40] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at Content@RIMS.org.
[44:52] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continued support!
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About our guest: Sal Lifrieri, former NYPD detective and director for NYC's Office of Emergency Management.
Author: Leading Through Chaos: What Decades in Intelligence, Crisis, and Chaos Taught Me About Leadership
"Former NYPD Detective Talks Midtown Security."
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