EP21: The Bonebreaker

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All right, welcome back to another episode of the Psychopedia Podcast.
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I am your co-host, Tank Sinatra, here with my co-host.
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Investigators later.
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We have a special guest in the studio today. Cash's
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gastrointestinal tract is making an appearance.
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Thankfully, we only hear it, and we do not smell
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it yet.
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Yeah, so if you hear some rumblings and tumblings, that's
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just Cash's tummy going apeshit over there.
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I saw him eating something up here.
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What did he eat?
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I don't know. What do you have on your floor?
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Oh, I did see him eat something.
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I know. First of all, he's not like the type
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of dog that grabs shit off the sidewalk, typically like
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our other pit bull, but he definitely got his mouth
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around something right before we started recording.
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You'll find out what it is in about four to
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six hours.
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I'm agreeing with you.
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Ew. It's probably a chord of some sort.
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Wonderful.
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Yeah. So welcome back to the podcast. As always, rate, review, subscribe, follow, share, love, email, DM, stalk.
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I mean, how else should these people be getting in
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contact with us?
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Think of some things that maybe like a psychopathic serial
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killer stalker might do.
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Yeah. Look through our windows. I mean, follow us for
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three to four turns so that we notice. Just like
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we want you people to be into it. So if
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you're not following us, I have to believe that maybe
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you're just not as big of a fan as you
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say you are.
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We question your loyalty.
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Yeah. So start seeing us in real life. No, don't
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do that. You can do that with me because I'm huge.
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But with Investigator Slater, leave her alone because she's very frail.
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Thanks, Tank. I'm not frail. Motherfucker. I'm just small.
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But she does carry weapons. We have a pretty big
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announcement to make right now.
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You're pregnant?
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Yeah. I knew it. With twins.
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Mazel tov.
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Yeah, mazel twins. No, we're launching a different, you know,
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version of the podcast, which we announced last week, but
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we're announcing it again. We're going to keep announcing it
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because we have to. We're doing a Patreon, and that
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is because we have more to say. Like, I censor myself,
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not with what I'm saying, but how long I say it,
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and I have to be very picky and choosy with
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my words on this podcast. And I just want to
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talk more. And I think you are also going to
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approach things from a different angle. You can speak to
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that if you want right now.
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I will take that opportunity.
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Yeah.
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So when I prep these cases, there's weeks of research
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that go into it. And I have to select, cherry
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pick what I'm including in the case.
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And every word is written.
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Every single word, every thought, every idea is fresh and
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written by me. So Just similar to what you were saying,
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I have to cap it or we'd be here for
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three hours. So I also love the idea that we're
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going to have a platform where we can just riff
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and like really get into what we want to say
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in as many ways as we want to say it.
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The working title right now is Psychopedia Unhinged.
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Yeah, I love it.
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Because we're about to just take the hinges off. Right.
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And we're also a little unhinged.
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And if you think we've been unhinged, you have no idea.
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Buckle up.
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Yeah. I mean, punched her in the tits was nothing.
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Compared to what you're going to get. So it's going
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to be patreon.com slash psychopediapod. We'll have a couple of
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different levels, all cute names. One of the levels will
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be for sure, Semen Demon. We're not sure which one,
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but if you want to be a Semen Demon, go
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over to patreon.com slash psychopediapod and sign up to get
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more of what you know you want. Yeah. Right? Like,
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let's not kid ourselves. You love us and we love you.
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I was going to say, it's totally mutual. We want
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to hang out with you guys more.
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Yeah. You know, as we get in there and build
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it out, we'll maybe... have some goals and fly people
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out to the studio to record with us. I don't know.
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We could get nuts.
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I love that idea.
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Why wouldn't we do that?
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We can and we will.
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And we're doing guests like we had Mark Norman on
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last week. Like, you know, we're trying to build this
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thing and we're only building it because you're all coming.
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If you build it, they will come.
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Exactly. Arnold Schwarzenegger style. We hear you. We hear you
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when you say you woke up on a Tuesday and
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you were pissed because it wasn't Wednesday.
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Yeah, we love it. We love hearing that. We feel
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the same way, by the way.
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Yeah. It's like a holiday when this episode drops for
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me every week. And I get very excited Tuesday night
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that tomorrow I'm going to wake up and there's going
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to be a new episode because I listen to them too.
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So do I.
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We love ourselves. We're a little egocentric.
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I love hearing what our listeners are hearing. And then
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I try and like, here's something that maybe I don't
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love and then fix it for the next time.
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Yeah. I mean, she would hardest. Hardest worker in the room.
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That's not saying much. I got a dog on the floor.
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And me. And you. She's like the rock of true crime. Yeah.
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Hardest worker in the room. Okay, Dwayne. Sure. Maybe. So
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without further a doozy, that was for you. I love it.
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We're going to get into this case. As always, I
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have no fucking clue what's about to happen. And you,
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the listener, are going to hear it for the first time,
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as am I. And I hope my reactions mirror your reactions.
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That means we're buddies. So without further ado, let's hear
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this nightmare.
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Some of our listeners requested this case, which is funny
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because I already had it on my list. But the
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fact that people requested this one, like, wow, dude, you
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guys are nuts for wanting to hear this one. I
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love it.
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We got some crazy listeners. You know what they want, probably,
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is they want to hear your take on it.
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I hope so. I hope I can bring something different
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from what they may have already heard. On July 14th, 1995,
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a 13-year-old boy named Thaddeus Phillips moved into a brand
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new home with his family in a place called Baraboo, Wisconsin.
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Baraboo.
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Baraboo is a city with a total population of about 12,000
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and is known as Circus City, as that is where
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the Ringling Brothers Circus established itself back in 1884.
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Baraboo, Wisconsin. Yeah. Okay.
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And that little piece of history is completely irrelevant to
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the case, but interesting.
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I think it's interesting. Ringling, Barnum and Bailey Brothers Circus. Yeah.
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Also, I can't say Ringling. It's another one of those words.
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It's the worst name. Ringling, Barnum and Brothers and Bailey.
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Right. Well, they were established in Baraboo in 1884. Another
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B word. With his tan complexion, dirty blonde hair, and
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love for playing baseball, Thad Phillips was the quintessential image
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of a young, outdoorsy, Midwestern kid.
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You gave him a nickname already, huh?
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I did?
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Yeah. What?
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Oh, Thad?
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We introduced him as Thaddeus, and now he's Thad.
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Oh, yeah. I mean, we're kind of homeboys. I know
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all about him by this point.
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TP.
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He reminds me of a character in The Sandlot.
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Okay. Right?
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That best movie ever.
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Yeah. One of them.
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So just two weeks after Thad and his family moved
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into their new home in Circus City, Thad and his
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five-year-old sister stayed up late to watch a movie together
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in the living room. Eventually, Thad fell asleep on the couch,
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which is something that happened a lot when he'd insist
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on staying up late to watch a movie. Shortly after
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conking out, Thad experienced the familiar sensation of his dad, Donald,
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lifting him from the couch and carrying him into his bedroom,
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a routine occurrence that happened countless times before. Nestled against
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the familiar and comforting embrace of his dad, Thad drifted
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back into slumber while being transferred into the next room. However,
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on this particular occasion, something felt off. Instead of being
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taken to his bedroom as usual, Thad found himself being
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carried outside into the abyss of the pitch black night.
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Why are we going outside, Thad wondered, to an extent
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since he was still half asleep.
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And five. No, he's 13.
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What?
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His sister.
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I mentioned he was watching a movie with his sister.
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His sister's five. Thad is 13.
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And his dad is carrying him into his bed?
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Yeah, he was sleeping.
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That's weird.
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It's not weird.
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Not to digress too much, but if you're on the
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other side of this microphone right now and I'm in
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your ears and you think it's weird, you're right. She's wrong.
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I'm right. You're right. 13? My son is 10. I
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don't even carry him into his bed. Wow.
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Shame on you.
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I'm fucking jacked.
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He shifted his confused gaze upward, locking his groggy eyes
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into the silhouette above him, only to be struck with
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a profound sense of shock and panic.
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It was Shrek?
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It was not Shrek. Because even among the pitch black
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velvet landscape illuminated only by the faint glow of the moon,
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Thad could see that the person holding him was not
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his father.
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Oh, that's scary. Oh no, he got kidnapped? Yeah. From
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his home?
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Yup.
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Oh, that's fucking terrifying.
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Thad had no way of knowing that the individual carrying
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him out of his house had been watching him for
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the full two weeks that he'd been living in his
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new home. It's not entirely clear how this perpetrator entered
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the home, but I watched and interviewed in which Thad's
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dad indicated that he'd always shut the light and lock
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the door the night before, like when they'd go to sleep.
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And when he woke up the next morning, the light
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was still on, which indicates that he likely also left
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the door unlocked that night.
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Yeah.
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And then this fucking predator just walked right in.
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Wow.
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And while Thad was now stunned into visceral shock and
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a primal sense of impending doom, he truly had no
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idea just how absolutely horrific the next 43 hours of
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his life were going to be. Because the person carrying
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him away from the safety and comfort of his home
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and family... was none other than 17-year-old Joe Clark, more
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famously known as the Bonebreaker.
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Oh, that's a really gruesome moniker to have.
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Yeah, it's well earned.
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The Bonebreaker?
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Yep. 17? Yeah, which makes it somehow just more horrific, right? Yeah. So, obviously,
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we're going to go on to hear why he received
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that name, but... he's one of the most ruthless people
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we've heard yet on this podcast.
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There was a kid in Comac, his name was Bryce Sullivan.
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For people who are, if you're from Comac and you
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know who that is, like high five through the internet,
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but nobody knows who he is. To me, he's the
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bone breaker. He was like the worst person I've ever
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00:11:34.899 --> 00:11:36.179
heard of in any neighborhood.
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Was he older than you?
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00:11:37.490 --> 00:11:39.100
Yeah, he was like three or four years older than me.
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00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:40.679
Okay, so I definitely wouldn't know him then.
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He was just a nightmare human being. Very, obviously, I
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don't know anything about his family, but I'm assuming he
256
00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:47.879
had it rough growing up. Yeah, yeah.
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Did he go to our school?
258
00:11:49.379 --> 00:11:52.539
He went to Comac High School, but he was just like,
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00:11:52.590 --> 00:11:55.990
he set my friend Jimmy's house on fire. Like, didn't
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00:11:56.029 --> 00:11:57.289
even deny it.
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Yeah, where is this kid now?
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Dead.
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Oh, shit.
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He died at 17.
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00:12:01.649 --> 00:12:02.289
Oh, my God.
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00:12:02.409 --> 00:12:05.129
Yeah, motorcycle accident. He was one of those people who
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was from like 11 or 12 on, Just like, stay
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away from that kid. He's a fucking nightmare.
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00:12:09.820 --> 00:12:12.179
There are a lot of similarities and we're going to
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00:12:12.220 --> 00:12:14.980
go on to hear why in the way you're describing
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this kid, Bryce.
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Yeah.
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With how I'm going to go on to describe the
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bone breaker.
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I still don't like people named Bryce. If I meet
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somebody named Bryce, I'm like, nice to know you.
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00:12:23.149 --> 00:12:26.950
Gives you the creeps. Yeah. So after stealthily abducting Thad
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from his own home as his parents literally slept in
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the next room.
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Yeah.
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Joe Clark placed a barefoot Thad down on the gravel
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and instructed him to run with him the rest of
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the way towards his house, which was located about half
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a mile down the road. And for some reason, this
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bizarre request made Thad think that maybe his dad was
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00:12:44.659 --> 00:12:46.730
in some kind of trouble in the neighborhood and needed
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his help.
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I could see that.
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00:12:47.850 --> 00:12:49.970
Yeah, because the kid who just carried him off the
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00:12:50.009 --> 00:12:53.309
couch didn't seem necessarily mean or dangerous. He just seemed
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like he really needed Thad to hurry up and go
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with him.
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00:12:56.570 --> 00:12:58.000
Plus, you're like half asleep.
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He's half asleep, and he also thought that maybe his
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brother was friends with this kid, Joe Clark.
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Yeah.
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00:13:03.700 --> 00:13:06.820
So he interpreted the situation at that moment as weird,
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but not dangerous.
299
00:13:08.019 --> 00:13:08.220
Yeah.
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00:13:08.860 --> 00:13:11.649
He was scared, he was confused, and he complied. So
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he ran barefoot towards this unknown house like an innocent
302
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and oblivious lamb walking into the slaughterhouse. Once inside the house,
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Thad was struck by how disgusting it was. There were
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00:13:24.029 --> 00:13:28.220
beer cans all over the place, moldy food containers, filthy clothing,
305
00:13:28.529 --> 00:13:33.139
dilapidated furniture, no lights on, and just had an overall unkempt,
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off-putting vibe. Joe guided Thad upstairs into a bedroom where
307
00:13:38.559 --> 00:13:41.200
he presented him with some model cars and a really
308
00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:45.730
cool collection of baseball cards, instantly connecting with Thad. And
309
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he also started talking about kids that Thad knew around
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00:13:49.370 --> 00:13:52.309
the neighborhood. So, of course, by doing this, he was
311
00:13:52.389 --> 00:13:55.929
cleverly establishing a false sense of camaraderie and trust, painting
312
00:13:55.950 --> 00:13:58.409
the illusion of shared interests and mutual friends.
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And this is all in the middle of the night
314
00:14:00.139 --> 00:14:02.879
he's doing this. Yep. Yeah. Putting myself into the mind
315
00:14:02.919 --> 00:14:08.259
of Thad, I can 100% imagine that he's just like,
316
00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:14.059
this is fucking weird, but... Okay, like, what are we
317
00:14:14.100 --> 00:14:14.590
doing here?
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00:14:14.750 --> 00:14:14.970
Yeah.
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00:14:15.090 --> 00:14:16.850
Probably he's trying to figure it out, scared to ask.
320
00:14:17.370 --> 00:14:19.909
Does the kid have a reputation in the neighborhood, the Bonebreaker?
321
00:14:20.149 --> 00:14:23.950
Well, yes, but mind you, Thad moved into that neighborhood
322
00:14:24.009 --> 00:14:25.129
just two weeks prior.
323
00:14:25.409 --> 00:14:28.360
Oh, my God. Imagine Bryce Sullivan came into my house
324
00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:30.559
when I was 13 and I just moved there. I
325
00:14:30.580 --> 00:14:31.460
didn't know who he was.
326
00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:32.320
You'd be screwed.
327
00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:35.279
Oh, my God. That's so scary.
328
00:14:35.340 --> 00:14:39.659
So what Joe Clark was skillfully doing was disarming his
329
00:14:39.730 --> 00:14:43.529
now-captive knowing that if he could put Thad at ease,
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00:14:43.789 --> 00:14:46.230
the next part of his plan would go a lot smoother.
331
00:14:46.250 --> 00:14:48.649
I don't even want to know what the next part
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00:14:48.669 --> 00:14:49.350
of his plan was.
333
00:14:49.490 --> 00:14:53.480
And even though the entire situation was undeniably weird as
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00:14:53.580 --> 00:14:57.620
fuck for Thad, Joe was an extremely proficient manipulator and
335
00:14:57.659 --> 00:15:00.419
kept his finger on the pulse of the situation, knowing
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00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:04.000
exactly what to say and how to successfully coax Thad
337
00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:06.799
into placing his trust in him during those initial moments.
338
00:15:07.460 --> 00:15:10.840
Joe was a cunning and dangerous predator disguised as a
339
00:15:10.899 --> 00:15:14.360
harmless neighborhood kid, like a wolf in sheep's clothing. And
340
00:15:14.419 --> 00:15:17.200
much like a predatory wolf, Joe began to close in
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00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:18.779
on his unsuspecting prey.
342
00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:22.389
I just want it on record that when we launch merch,
343
00:15:22.750 --> 00:15:25.490
obviously we're going to have some kind of hidden semen
344
00:15:25.509 --> 00:15:28.870
demon on a shirt somewhere. But also I think Undeniably
345
00:15:28.889 --> 00:15:31.549
Weird as Fuck is a great Put on a shirt
346
00:15:31.629 --> 00:15:34.570
just to put it into the record books. Love it.
347
00:15:34.580 --> 00:15:37.139
So I don't forget it because I will 100% forget it.
348
00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:39.460
Well, good thing you listen to these episodes after they
349
00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:40.679
come out because it will remind you.
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00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:41.200
Yes.
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00:15:41.740 --> 00:15:44.039
So I'd like to issue a trigger warning at this
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00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:47.009
point because it gets very, very graphic. And we are
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00:15:47.049 --> 00:15:49.210
talking about a child here. So please listen with caution.
354
00:15:50.029 --> 00:15:53.450
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As Thad continued to innocently examine the baseball cards scattered,
403
00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:58.160
Joe suddenly dropped his friendly facade and instantly lost any
404
00:18:58.259 --> 00:19:01.599
semblance of warmth and kindness from his face. He put
405
00:19:01.619 --> 00:19:06.259
the baseball cards down. rose to his feet, intentionally standing
406
00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:09.140
above Thad to place himself in a position of dominance
407
00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:14.829
and control. Then, without warning or cause, Joe forcefully threw
408
00:19:14.910 --> 00:19:20.410
Thad's 90-pound body down on the filthy mattress and pounced. First,
409
00:19:20.609 --> 00:19:23.809
Joe began to jump up and down on Thad's much
410
00:19:23.990 --> 00:19:30.589
smaller body. He Joe grabbed hold of Thad's left foot
411
00:19:30.789 --> 00:19:35.470
and began to twist it until it snapped and splintered.
412
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:40.420
He wrapped his left foot around his leg so that
413
00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:42.200
it was facing backwards.
414
00:19:42.539 --> 00:19:45.579
You're doing a great job describing this, and I fucking
415
00:19:45.619 --> 00:19:45.950
hate it.
416
00:19:46.059 --> 00:19:47.000
Yeah, I'm sorry.
417
00:19:47.019 --> 00:19:47.859
It's okay.
418
00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:52.859
Thad could feel the now-broken bones in his ankle drifting
419
00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:56.069
up his leg, where they then proceeded to rub against
420
00:19:56.130 --> 00:19:59.890
the other bones. Can you imagine feeling your bones migrating
421
00:20:00.170 --> 00:20:00.950
inside your body?
422
00:20:01.309 --> 00:20:04.549
Well, what he did is something called a radial fracture.
423
00:20:04.569 --> 00:20:07.109
Do you know what that is? No. So sometimes a
424
00:20:07.130 --> 00:20:10.190
bone is broken at a point, and it cracks. A
425
00:20:10.349 --> 00:20:14.599
radial fracture is when it, like the worst possible way
426
00:20:14.619 --> 00:20:18.420
to describe it I possibly can, the bagels that come prepackaged,
427
00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:22.420
when you twist them and they separate, it's like the
428
00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:25.309
bone gets twisted so hard that it breaks and it
429
00:20:25.509 --> 00:20:29.089
sends waves up each side of the broken bone. So
430
00:20:29.130 --> 00:20:31.670
it splinters. It doesn't crack like you would crack a
431
00:20:31.710 --> 00:20:32.349
pretzel rod.
432
00:20:32.529 --> 00:20:33.150
Right.
433
00:20:33.410 --> 00:20:34.130
It explodes.
434
00:20:34.170 --> 00:20:37.859
This distinction. actually is something we're going to come back
435
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:40.420
to later in the case god you have the best
436
00:20:40.579 --> 00:20:43.700
fucking input tank like you really know i know i
437
00:20:43.730 --> 00:20:46.210
say this a lot you know so much about so.
438
00:20:46.130 --> 00:20:49.250
Much i know a little about a lot okay.
439
00:20:49.430 --> 00:20:51.650
Well it comes across as knowing a lot about a
440
00:20:51.690 --> 00:20:52.849
lot i know a lot.
441
00:20:52.710 --> 00:20:54.549
Of shit i know a lot of shit that's the
442
00:20:54.609 --> 00:20:57.109
first useful thing i've said this entire podcast.
443
00:20:56.670 --> 00:20:58.970
No that was just you killed it and it's actually
444
00:20:59.009 --> 00:21:01.529
very relevant so like put it on ice great.
445
00:21:01.930 --> 00:21:05.579
No pun intended oh yes ice that bone.
446
00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:09.839
Thad knew that he was in mortal danger.
447
00:21:09.859 --> 00:21:10.700
Oh yeah.
448
00:21:11.259 --> 00:21:14.960
Right after Thad's ankle snapped and shifted, so too did
449
00:21:15.019 --> 00:21:20.430
Joe's disposition. Suddenly, Joe dropped his face in his hands
450
00:21:20.609 --> 00:21:24.769
and began to frantically mumble to himself. Gone was the
451
00:21:24.849 --> 00:21:28.400
dominant psychopath and in his place stood an almost vulnerable
452
00:21:28.460 --> 00:21:29.619
looking teenage boy.
453
00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:31.119
The other one just switched back?
454
00:21:31.589 --> 00:21:32.750
The perpetrator.
455
00:21:32.930 --> 00:21:34.170
Switch back to vulnerable?
456
00:21:34.369 --> 00:21:36.799
So remember, he lures Thad into his home.
457
00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:37.190
He's Mr.
458
00:21:37.259 --> 00:21:41.079
Nice Guy. He's Joey from the block. Then in a second,
459
00:21:41.420 --> 00:21:42.880
he becomes this predator.
460
00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:43.680
He's Bonebreaker.
461
00:21:43.859 --> 00:21:48.420
He's Bonebreaker, correct. And then in the next instant moment,
462
00:21:49.210 --> 00:21:52.390
he's got his hands on his face and he's freaking out.
463
00:21:53.089 --> 00:21:54.089
Wow, this kid is.
464
00:21:54.170 --> 00:21:56.630
He's got rapid shifts in demeanor.
465
00:21:56.849 --> 00:21:56.990
Yeah.
466
00:21:57.789 --> 00:22:01.609
Seeing, though, that this was a potential opportunity to escape, right,
467
00:22:01.650 --> 00:22:04.309
because Joe now has his face in his hands, and
468
00:22:04.369 --> 00:22:06.769
drawing on a surge of adrenaline in that very moment,
469
00:22:07.450 --> 00:22:11.089
Thad mustered the strength to free himself from the situation
470
00:22:11.190 --> 00:22:15.509
despite the excruciating pain surging from his newly fractured ankle,
471
00:22:16.130 --> 00:22:19.690
and he made a run for it, figuratively. With an
472
00:22:19.779 --> 00:22:23.680
extremely hobbled gait, understandably, So now they're downstairs. No. No.
473
00:22:49.109 --> 00:22:53.150
that caused Thad's femur bone to snap in half.
474
00:22:53.569 --> 00:22:55.150
What is this kid? What the fuck?
475
00:22:55.609 --> 00:22:58.269
So the femur is the longest and strongest bone in
476
00:22:58.289 --> 00:23:02.470
the human body, and it requires, to be exact, 899
477
00:23:02.470 --> 00:23:04.210
pounds of force to break.
478
00:23:04.769 --> 00:23:05.490
Per square inch.
479
00:23:05.630 --> 00:23:08.519
So the combination of the immense amount of force that
480
00:23:08.539 --> 00:23:13.380
Joe was applying with the angle, with Thad's age, caused
481
00:23:13.420 --> 00:23:16.759
this otherwise exceptionally resilient bone to snap.
482
00:23:17.829 --> 00:23:19.390
Broke his femur? Yeah.
483
00:23:20.029 --> 00:23:22.670
On his right leg and his left ankle. His whole
484
00:23:22.750 --> 00:23:23.740
foot was facing the other way.
485
00:23:23.750 --> 00:23:27.069
His left ankle was twisted. The femur bone, for anybody
486
00:23:27.089 --> 00:23:28.789
who's not familiar with how hard it is to break
487
00:23:28.829 --> 00:23:32.799
a femur bone, I think they say, please don't come
488
00:23:32.819 --> 00:23:36.019
for me. I'm just talking, okay? I want to just
489
00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:39.339
appeal to the people who are listening. The only thing
490
00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.880
that's comparable to birth pain is a broken femur.
491
00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:45.660
I'm coming at you right now.
492
00:23:46.309 --> 00:23:47.589
Because it's not. It can't be.
493
00:23:47.609 --> 00:23:49.269
Because you can't compare.
494
00:23:49.289 --> 00:23:51.049
You can't imagine how hard it must be. Give me
495
00:23:51.069 --> 00:23:51.450
a break.
496
00:23:51.470 --> 00:23:53.849
Well, when it's happening for 36 hours straight, my friend.
497
00:23:54.829 --> 00:23:58.859
Stop complaining. Oh, my God. Please. Now I'm getting... Yeah,
498
00:23:58.890 --> 00:23:59.490
come for me now.
499
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:01.220
Ladies with babies, help me out here.
500
00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:03.259
You know what? I was just trying to draw a line.
501
00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:05.099
No, I get it. I get it. You're trying to...
502
00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:07.599
I understand. You're trying to suggest that it's excruciating.
503
00:24:07.619 --> 00:24:11.089
It's the only thing that's even comparable. Okay. But that
504
00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:15.730
also is the largest, strongest bone... In the body. The
505
00:24:15.789 --> 00:24:16.869
thickest bone, the femur.
506
00:24:17.549 --> 00:24:21.269
So with a now fractured femur and completely shattered ankle,
507
00:24:21.829 --> 00:24:25.980
Joe callously proceeded to subject Thad's already devastated limbs to
508
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:30.380
further torment by jumping up and down on the broken bones.
509
00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:31.720
What a dick.
510
00:24:31.940 --> 00:24:37.059
The extent of suffering endured by Thad is beyond comprehension.
511
00:24:37.970 --> 00:24:40.690
And Thad, by this point, was understandably going into shock,
512
00:24:40.890 --> 00:24:44.609
and he was bracing for impact as the blows continued
513
00:24:44.690 --> 00:24:49.960
to land on his fractured body. But then, suddenly, something
514
00:24:50.119 --> 00:24:52.259
else happened. Pop quiz.
515
00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:53.059
Oh, shit.
516
00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:57.859
What happened next? A. Thad's dad busted through the front
517
00:24:57.900 --> 00:25:02.880
door holding a Remington 12-gauge shotgun. B. Joe started to
518
00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:05.109
sing the breakout hit This Is How We Do It
519
00:25:05.309 --> 00:25:10.059
by Montel Jordan. C. Joe suddenly stopped jumping on sad
520
00:25:10.180 --> 00:25:13.559
and started engaging in light conversation about his girlfriend and
521
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:14.859
his fascination with bones.
522
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.000
He started engaging in light conversation. Yes.
523
00:25:18.339 --> 00:25:18.880
Very good.
524
00:25:18.900 --> 00:25:19.750
You know how I knew that?
525
00:25:19.789 --> 00:25:20.009
No.
526
00:25:20.410 --> 00:25:22.759
I'm just going to give the secret away to help you. Hmm.
527
00:25:24.269 --> 00:25:25.269
Do you not want me to?
528
00:25:25.269 --> 00:25:27.769
I don't know. I get very sensitive over these pop quizzes.
529
00:25:27.789 --> 00:25:28.670
I didn't do good.
530
00:25:29.029 --> 00:25:29.609
You did fine.
531
00:25:29.769 --> 00:25:31.369
Oh, okay. So, so tell me.
532
00:25:31.630 --> 00:25:33.950
But as hard as you're trying to get me.
533
00:25:33.970 --> 00:25:34.779
I know.
534
00:25:34.990 --> 00:25:37.299
I'm trying as hard to not get. It's okay.
535
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:38.420
I want to improve. So tell me.
536
00:25:38.819 --> 00:25:41.720
Okay. So the first thing was that you told me
537
00:25:41.740 --> 00:25:44.059
that Thad was in there for 43 hours. So I
538
00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:51.559
knew his dad. Rookie mistake. The second thing. is that
539
00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:56.279
I pictured you Googling what were the popular songs in 1995.
540
00:25:56.279 --> 00:26:01.589
Fucking exactly what I did. Maybe co-hosting a podcast with
541
00:26:01.630 --> 00:26:04.089
your really close friend isn't the best idea when you're
542
00:26:04.109 --> 00:26:05.250
trying to trip them up.
543
00:26:05.869 --> 00:26:07.630
So yeah, got his ass.
544
00:26:08.390 --> 00:26:09.470
Do better, try harder.
545
00:26:11.829 --> 00:26:14.900
All right, let's move on. This is how we do it.
546
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:20.140
So it was really as if someone flipped a switch.
547
00:26:20.630 --> 00:26:21.009
Yeah. Yeah.
548
00:26:43.329 --> 00:26:47.900
And Joe's ability to seamlessly oscillate between the friendly Joey
549
00:26:47.940 --> 00:26:50.779
from the block, as I said before, persona, and a
550
00:26:50.859 --> 00:26:54.640
cold-hearted literal bone breaker is a classic sign of psychopathy.
551
00:26:55.140 --> 00:26:57.319
And we've seen this before, most recently with the Jerry
552
00:26:57.500 --> 00:27:01.460
Brudos shoe fetish slayer case, right? With Jerry Brudos, he
553
00:27:01.500 --> 00:27:05.460
would go upstairs, eat burgers with his children and mother,
554
00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:09.289
and 30 seconds later after going into his basement, literally
555
00:27:09.569 --> 00:27:10.250
fuck a corpse.
556
00:27:10.900 --> 00:27:12.339
Just a regular Friday.
557
00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:16.960
But that ability to flip-flop like that is classic psychopathy.
558
00:27:17.099 --> 00:27:17.319
Yeah.
559
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:19.720
And it was really as if Joe's brain had a
560
00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:22.880
switch that enabled him to present different facets of his
561
00:27:22.940 --> 00:27:25.670
personality at any given moment, depending on what he wanted
562
00:27:25.750 --> 00:27:28.990
that person to see in that moment. So when Joe
563
00:27:29.029 --> 00:27:31.369
wasn't brutalizing Thad, he wanted Thad to see him as
564
00:27:31.430 --> 00:27:33.890
one of the boys, which is why, in addition to
565
00:27:33.930 --> 00:27:36.630
turning on movies and hanging out on the couch together,
566
00:27:37.250 --> 00:27:41.269
Joe would also attend to Thad's shattered limbs. Yeah. providing
567
00:27:41.369 --> 00:27:44.789
medical attention and care to the severe wounds that he
568
00:27:44.910 --> 00:27:48.970
had viciously inflicted mere moments before. So this is what
569
00:27:49.009 --> 00:27:53.849
he'd do. Joe would fashion makeshift casts using layers and
570
00:27:53.950 --> 00:27:57.450
layers of stolen white gym socks. And when I say
571
00:27:57.630 --> 00:28:02.019
layers and layers, he had hundreds. of socks that he stole.
572
00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:06.099
And he would wrap it around Thad's wounds with ace
573
00:28:06.140 --> 00:28:08.880
bandages as well. And he was so meticulous, he'd have
574
00:28:08.900 --> 00:28:11.019
to make sure that the seams of the socks and
575
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:14.490
the bandages all lined up to make sure that his
576
00:28:14.529 --> 00:28:16.150
handiwork was neat and precise.
577
00:28:16.450 --> 00:28:16.710
Yeah.
578
00:28:17.250 --> 00:28:19.450
While some sources indicate that this was done as a
579
00:28:19.490 --> 00:28:22.529
way of creating a sense of trust and bond with Thad,
580
00:28:22.609 --> 00:28:26.710
almost like Stockholm Syndrome, where the victim almost feels for
581
00:28:26.750 --> 00:28:29.150
their abuser or captor, and they almost have this bizarre
582
00:28:29.170 --> 00:28:32.599
relationship perverse kind of connection. Some sources say that that's
583
00:28:32.619 --> 00:28:35.509
what Joe was trying to establish, but other sources say,
584
00:28:35.529 --> 00:28:37.390
and I think this is the side that I fall on,
585
00:28:37.930 --> 00:28:43.250
that he was purposely fixing Thad so that he could
586
00:28:43.309 --> 00:28:45.029
tear him down again. Yeah.
587
00:28:45.309 --> 00:28:47.289
Do you know the origin of Stockholm syndrome, by the way?
588
00:28:47.299 --> 00:28:48.140
Do you know that? I do.
589
00:28:48.259 --> 00:28:51.220
I do. It was a bank robbery in Stockholm, Sweden.
590
00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:53.920
Yeah. I just heard it the other day on a podcast,
591
00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:54.980
not a true crime podcast.
592
00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:58.720
As the night slowly gave way to morning, Thad mustered
593
00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:01.559
the courage to ask Joe if he could call his parents,
594
00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:05.380
simply to reassure them that he was safe. Pop quiz.
595
00:29:05.869 --> 00:29:08.269
What happened when Thad asked Joe if he could call
596
00:29:08.289 --> 00:29:13.529
his parents? A. Joe, wearing his bestie hat, said, sure,
597
00:29:14.170 --> 00:29:18.490
and incredibly handed Thad the phone. B. Joe became enraged
598
00:29:18.569 --> 00:29:21.230
by the request, lashed out with his fist, and broke
599
00:29:21.269 --> 00:29:22.170
Thad's collarbone.
600
00:29:22.190 --> 00:29:23.180
Or C.
601
00:29:24.049 --> 00:29:26.809
Joe told Thad that he'd never see or speak to
602
00:29:26.849 --> 00:29:27.690
his parents again.
603
00:29:28.390 --> 00:29:29.819
He told him that he'd never see or speak to
604
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:34.339
his parents again? Nope. Oh, you got me. He lashed
605
00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:35.519
out with him and broke his collarbone?
606
00:29:35.789 --> 00:29:36.009
Nope.
607
00:29:36.109 --> 00:29:38.890
He gave him the phone? Yeah. Wow.
608
00:29:39.150 --> 00:29:43.119
To his surprise. Joe nonchalantly agreed and handed Thad the phone.
609
00:29:43.700 --> 00:29:46.660
Trembling with a mix of hope and anxiety and excitement
610
00:29:46.700 --> 00:29:49.519
and relief, Thad started to dial the number to his
611
00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:52.880
parents' landline phone, desperate to hear their voices on the
612
00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:57.329
other end. When the call wasn't connecting, Thad started to panic.
613
00:29:58.069 --> 00:30:01.660
But it was then. that he noticed Joe giggling in
614
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:04.380
the corner and realized with a pit in his stomach
615
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:06.569
that Joe disconnected the phone.
616
00:30:06.950 --> 00:30:09.329
Oh, what a fucking piece of shit.
617
00:30:09.390 --> 00:30:12.670
It was a cruel and twisted play executed by Joe
618
00:30:12.829 --> 00:30:15.589
in an effort to inflict a level of mental torment
619
00:30:15.690 --> 00:30:20.660
that would mirror the physical agony. And Joe derived such
620
00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:24.900
pleasure from witnessing the hope drain from Thad's face and eyes.
621
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:30.420
He truly relished... in this child's anguish yeah sure thad
622
00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:33.740
pleaded desperately with joe to let him go making promises
623
00:30:33.779 --> 00:30:36.660
to keep this whole fucking ordeal a secret he said
624
00:30:36.700 --> 00:30:39.220
he'd just tell everyone that he merely tripped and he
625
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:42.299
suffered like these horrific injuries which is such a little
626
00:30:42.339 --> 00:30:44.779
kid thing to do like tripped off the grand canyon
627
00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:47.740
yeah i know but for some reason that really broke
628
00:30:47.779 --> 00:30:50.359
my heart because i'm like it's just such a kid
629
00:30:50.380 --> 00:30:52.549
like you didn't think that went through did you baby
630
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:57.089
you know So of course, Joe callously dismissed Thad's pleas,
631
00:30:57.190 --> 00:31:01.019
asserting that nobody would believe that ridiculous account. At that point,
632
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:03.920
Thad decided to try a different tactic and to act
633
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.380
like he really was friends with Joe, thinking that maybe
634
00:31:07.460 --> 00:31:09.579
Joe wouldn't want to hurt him anymore if he started
635
00:31:09.619 --> 00:31:12.440
to see him like a true friend. So for about
636
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:16.380
two hours, Thad was like hamming it up, which again,
637
00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:19.710
that image breaks my heart. He's in such survival mode.
638
00:31:19.970 --> 00:31:21.529
Hamming it up in absolute agony.
639
00:31:21.549 --> 00:31:26.809
In absolute agony. But then, after two hours of going
640
00:31:26.849 --> 00:31:30.990
with it, Joe slowly turned his body towards Thad and
641
00:31:31.069 --> 00:31:34.410
looked at him in that unprovoked, predatory way that Thad
642
00:31:34.430 --> 00:31:37.750
was becoming all too familiar with. Again, it was like
643
00:31:37.789 --> 00:31:40.829
a switch flipped inside Joe, propelling him back into that
644
00:31:41.009 --> 00:31:45.369
rage-fueled red zone. Yeah. He then proceeded to carry Thad
645
00:31:45.529 --> 00:31:49.769
back upstairs and into the bedroom. Then he grabbed Thad's
646
00:31:49.930 --> 00:31:53.490
left leg and twisted it at the knee until both
647
00:31:53.569 --> 00:31:56.950
boys heard it pop and saw that it was now
648
00:31:57.099 --> 00:31:58.279
facing backwards.
649
00:31:59.279 --> 00:31:59.700
I hate it.
650
00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:04.579
Surprisingly, Joe made the decision to leave the house after that.
651
00:32:04.740 --> 00:32:06.680
He said he needed to go pick up his girlfriend.
652
00:32:06.700 --> 00:32:07.859
Where are his parents, by the way?
653
00:32:08.019 --> 00:32:11.599
It's a good question. They were away. So Joe left
654
00:32:11.619 --> 00:32:14.029
the house to pick up his girlfriend, likely figuring that
655
00:32:14.069 --> 00:32:16.890
Thad was far too hurt to try to fly the coop.
656
00:32:17.769 --> 00:32:21.450
But just in case, before leaving the house, Joe busted
657
00:32:21.529 --> 00:32:24.329
Thad up extra brutally to make sure that he would
658
00:32:24.369 --> 00:32:28.079
be completely immobilized and wouldn't be a flight risk. But
659
00:32:28.099 --> 00:32:31.240
there was still enough fight left in the dog for
660
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:34.519
Thad to make another daring attempt at escape. Despite the
661
00:32:34.579 --> 00:32:38.670
excruciating pain coursing through his broken body, Thad managed to
662
00:32:38.769 --> 00:32:42.950
crawl downstairs into the kitchen while Joe was out, feeling
663
00:32:43.130 --> 00:32:47.059
that unsettling sensation of his fractured bones shifting around his
664
00:32:47.319 --> 00:32:52.460
now deep purple skin and torn muscles. With nothing but
665
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:56.319
fierce determination propelling him forward, Thad reached the kitchen and
666
00:32:56.420 --> 00:33:00.480
started searching for a way out. But his escape plan
667
00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:04.289
was thwarted and his hopes were crushed again when he
668
00:33:04.369 --> 00:33:08.109
heard Joe and his girlfriend enter the front door. Thad
669
00:33:08.150 --> 00:33:09.849
knew that he wouldn't be getting out of that house,
670
00:33:10.210 --> 00:33:12.829
and he knew that he would be severely punished for
671
00:33:12.890 --> 00:33:16.170
attempting to leave. And he was right. When Joe discovered
672
00:33:16.210 --> 00:33:19.740
Thad hiding in the kitchen, his eyes nearly bulged out
673
00:33:19.779 --> 00:33:24.400
of his head. He was pissed. And the onslaught of
674
00:33:24.460 --> 00:33:27.240
violence that he unleashed against the boy for attempting to
675
00:33:27.299 --> 00:33:32.690
escape was horrendous. Joe mercilessly punched, kicked, and stomped on
676
00:33:32.750 --> 00:33:38.619
Thad's now grotesquely deformed legs before binding them together and
677
00:33:38.740 --> 00:33:42.160
locking him inside of a small, dark bedroom closet.
678
00:33:42.500 --> 00:33:44.980
And I'm, stupid question, but his girlfriend is obviously in
679
00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:47.319
on this. So... At this point.
680
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:50.839
I don't know, honestly, if she's in on it or
681
00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:54.150
if she didn't know what was happening because Joe brought
682
00:33:54.250 --> 00:33:55.710
Thad upstairs.
683
00:33:55.730 --> 00:33:55.789
So.
684
00:33:56.829 --> 00:33:58.789
Think about it, right? If she's in a living room
685
00:33:58.809 --> 00:34:01.089
and doesn't see the kitchen, I mean, I would think
686
00:34:01.150 --> 00:34:04.970
she would hear the noise and the moaning. It's a
687
00:34:04.990 --> 00:34:06.589
good question and I don't know the answer to it.
688
00:34:06.910 --> 00:34:08.409
I wonder if he gave her a heads up before
689
00:34:08.429 --> 00:34:10.469
he brought her back. Just like, hey, just a heads up.
690
00:34:10.530 --> 00:34:12.250
I have a 13-year-old kid in here that I'm kicking
691
00:34:12.269 --> 00:34:14.030
the shit out of. I'm breaking his bones.
692
00:34:14.570 --> 00:34:17.530
I don't know. Then she's just fucking complicit and equally
693
00:34:17.590 --> 00:34:19.300
as disgusting, which is possible.
694
00:34:19.780 --> 00:34:20.389
Yeah, for sure.
695
00:34:20.889 --> 00:34:23.719
It's worth noting because I was like literally moved to
696
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:27.690
tears over this during the research that During the unrelenting
697
00:34:27.750 --> 00:34:33.199
abuse and unimaginable torture, Thad refused to let Joe see
698
00:34:33.260 --> 00:34:37.860
him actually cry. Thad exhibited an unwavering resolve and would
699
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:41.920
not allow Joe the satisfaction of seeing him break, spiritually
700
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:46.309
or metaphorically. Everything else about him was sadly broken. His
701
00:34:46.369 --> 00:34:53.130
remarkable resilience and exceptional mental fortitude is really, honestly, awe-inspiring. Now, Thad,
702
00:34:53.170 --> 00:34:55.829
of course... was struggling to make sense of what was
703
00:34:55.889 --> 00:34:58.769
happening to him or why it was happening. And driven
704
00:34:58.829 --> 00:35:02.260
by this deep confusion and a quest for answers, Thad
705
00:35:02.300 --> 00:35:05.219
confronted Joe and flat out asked him why he was
706
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:08.940
doing this. And the response he received from Joe was
707
00:35:08.980 --> 00:35:12.849
beyond anything Thad was able to understand as it truly
708
00:35:13.050 --> 00:35:17.730
defies comprehension, which seems like the theme of this episode.
709
00:35:17.909 --> 00:35:18.110
Yeah.
710
00:35:18.630 --> 00:35:22.449
Pop quiz. Yes. what reason did Joe provide that for
711
00:35:22.670 --> 00:35:25.869
why he was ruthlessly breaking all the bones in his body?
712
00:35:26.610 --> 00:35:30.380
Was it because a, he enjoyed the sound of bones
713
00:35:30.429 --> 00:35:34.800
breaking B a voice that only Joe could hear was
714
00:35:34.860 --> 00:35:38.260
telling him to do it. See, it was an experiment
715
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:40.380
to see how many bones could break in a human
716
00:35:40.420 --> 00:35:42.239
body before it ultimately gave out.
717
00:35:42.260 --> 00:35:46.110
Oh my God. He likes the sounds of bones breaking.
718
00:35:46.170 --> 00:35:48.769
He's doing it because of the voices or he's experimenting. Um,
719
00:35:50.190 --> 00:35:52.829
I'm going to go with A.
720
00:35:53.829 --> 00:35:54.989
You are correct.
721
00:35:55.110 --> 00:35:57.570
He likes the sounds of bones breaking. Yep. That's the
722
00:35:57.610 --> 00:35:58.510
worst reason.
723
00:35:58.590 --> 00:35:59.960
And it's the right answer.
724
00:35:59.980 --> 00:36:02.679
Yeah, whatever. I just want to hear him break. Yeah.
725
00:36:02.739 --> 00:36:03.659
Crack your knuckles, dude.
726
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:07.500
Exactly. Or like go get like, I don't know, a
727
00:36:07.539 --> 00:36:09.739
rotisserie chicken or something and just fuck with the bones.
728
00:36:09.989 --> 00:36:10.179
Yeah.
729
00:36:10.489 --> 00:36:12.730
You know? Ew, I don't know why I said rotisserie chicken.
730
00:36:12.750 --> 00:36:15.230
I'll be honest. I like the way when you crack
731
00:36:15.269 --> 00:36:17.730
your knuckles underwater. I like the way that sounds.
732
00:36:17.750 --> 00:36:18.489
I've never done that.
733
00:36:18.750 --> 00:36:19.030
It's fun.
734
00:36:19.070 --> 00:36:20.840
I've never thought to do that, you freak.
735
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:23.480
I know. I mean, I'm a knuckle-cracking son of a bitch,
736
00:36:23.539 --> 00:36:24.400
and I always have been.
737
00:36:24.420 --> 00:36:26.599
It must sound different, obviously.
738
00:36:26.780 --> 00:36:30.019
Yeah, it sounds weird. I mean, listen, if you out
739
00:36:30.059 --> 00:36:32.280
there are listening and you have cracked your knuckles underwater,
740
00:36:32.300 --> 00:36:34.519
I want to hang out. I want to go in
741
00:36:34.579 --> 00:36:37.550
a pool with you and just crack our shit underwater.
742
00:36:38.150 --> 00:36:40.880
Today's episode is brought to you by Vinted. I recently
743
00:36:40.900 --> 00:36:43.730
did one of those aggressive closet cleanouts where you finally
744
00:36:43.769 --> 00:36:45.869
have to admit that the shirt you've moved from hanger
745
00:36:45.929 --> 00:36:49.030
to hanger for four years is not, in fact, coming
746
00:36:49.070 --> 00:36:51.929
back into rotation. I have so many clothes that I
747
00:36:51.989 --> 00:36:54.679
keep just because maybe I'll wear this again. Meanwhile, I
748
00:36:54.699 --> 00:36:57.519
have not worn it in actual years. And eventually you
749
00:36:57.559 --> 00:36:59.599
realize I'm running out of room for clothes that I
750
00:36:59.900 --> 00:37:02.539
actually wear because half of my closet is being occupied
751
00:37:02.579 --> 00:37:06.409
by clothes I'm emotionally supporting. That is where Vinted comes in.
752
00:37:06.849 --> 00:37:10.110
Vinted is a secondhand marketplace app that makes it really
753
00:37:10.250 --> 00:37:12.670
easy for everyday people like you and me to sell
754
00:37:12.690 --> 00:37:15.150
the clothing that we're no longer wearing and make some
755
00:37:15.190 --> 00:37:17.969
extra money in the process. And the part I appreciate
756
00:37:18.090 --> 00:37:21.469
is that selling is actually simple. You take some pictures,
757
00:37:21.710 --> 00:37:24.690
create your listing, set your price, and you're done. Then,
758
00:37:24.829 --> 00:37:27.909
once something sells, Vinted creates the prepaid shipping label for you.
759
00:37:28.329 --> 00:37:32.360
But my favorite part? There are no seller fees. The
760
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:35.320
Vinted app is completely free to download, and when you
761
00:37:35.340 --> 00:37:38.940
sell something, you keep everything you earn, which also makes
762
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:42.099
it significantly easier for me to justify buying something new.
763
00:37:42.659 --> 00:37:45.769
It also just feels better knowing that instead of perfectly
764
00:37:45.809 --> 00:37:49.030
good clothes sitting untouched in my closet for another five years,
765
00:37:49.369 --> 00:37:52.349
somebody else can actually wear and enjoy it. So go
766
00:37:52.389 --> 00:37:55.070
look in your closet. Seriously, you might be surprised by
767
00:37:55.130 --> 00:37:58.030
how much money is just sitting in there waiting for you.
768
00:37:58.670 --> 00:38:00.730
Ready to clean out your closet and make some extra money?
769
00:38:01.090 --> 00:38:03.849
Download the Vinted app for free and start listing. With
770
00:38:03.929 --> 00:38:06.769
no seller fees, you keep every dollar you earn. You
771
00:38:06.789 --> 00:38:08.969
know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself
772
00:38:09.030 --> 00:38:12.289
reaching for over and over again? The hoodie that goes
773
00:38:12.329 --> 00:38:15.900
with everything, the jeans you know will always fit just right,
774
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:18.820
or the bag you carry everywhere? Those are the pieces
775
00:38:18.860 --> 00:38:22.179
that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe. And that's
776
00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:27.340
exactly what Quince does so well. Quince makes elevated, everyday
777
00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:32.989
essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and
778
00:38:33.090 --> 00:38:37.550
premium stretch denim. The designs are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and
779
00:38:37.590 --> 00:38:40.989
made to be worn again and again, which is exactly
780
00:38:41.130 --> 00:38:43.389
what I do. It's a perfect place to shop as
781
00:38:43.429 --> 00:38:47.590
the weather gets colder, too, because Quince has everything from warm,
782
00:38:47.699 --> 00:38:51.820
responsibly sourced down jackets to cozy cashmere scarves and gloves.
783
00:38:52.300 --> 00:38:56.590
I am obsessed with their Responsible Downcropped Puffer Jacket. It
784
00:38:56.630 --> 00:39:00.610
comes in so many colors and it's water repellent, wind resistant,
785
00:39:00.769 --> 00:39:04.309
and just like super cute. Everything at Quince is priced
786
00:39:04.309 --> 00:39:08.610
50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly
787
00:39:08.650 --> 00:39:11.550
with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you're
788
00:39:11.590 --> 00:39:15.320
paying for quality, not brand markup. Find the fall pieces
789
00:39:15.340 --> 00:39:18.690
you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app
790
00:39:18.730 --> 00:39:23.340
for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping
791
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:27.670
on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada
792
00:39:27.750 --> 00:39:30.590
and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you
793
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:33.260
heard about them, let them know it was Psychopedia. It's
794
00:39:33.320 --> 00:39:37.119
the best way to support the show. Following a harrowing
795
00:39:37.179 --> 00:39:41.199
span of 43 relentless hours of abuse, during one of
796
00:39:41.239 --> 00:39:44.800
their buddy-buddy sessions, Joe revealed to Thad that he'd actually
797
00:39:44.860 --> 00:39:49.750
engaged in this deplorable behavior before. Twice, in fact. One
798
00:39:49.789 --> 00:39:52.230
of his previous victims, a boy named Chris who was
799
00:39:52.429 --> 00:39:56.309
battered and shattered like Thad, did not survive. And the
800
00:39:56.369 --> 00:39:58.190
other victim, he paralyzed.
801
00:39:58.710 --> 00:40:01.260
Battered and shattered like Thattered. Like Thattered.
802
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:07.460
Hearing that, the 13-year-old boy knew that his time was
803
00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:08.340
quickly running out.
804
00:40:08.619 --> 00:40:09.579
Oh, it's so scary.
805
00:40:09.940 --> 00:40:12.599
His body was now thoroughly mangled to a point where
806
00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:15.500
he couldn't even feel the pain anymore. So on the
807
00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:19.840
night of July 31st, 1995, Thad decided to make one
808
00:40:20.219 --> 00:40:23.409
last attempt at escape after hearing Joe leave the house
809
00:40:23.449 --> 00:40:26.329
to attend a local party with his girlfriend. And remember,
810
00:40:26.349 --> 00:40:29.289
now that he knows that Joe has done this before
811
00:40:29.309 --> 00:40:32.250
and that it has resulted in death, he really feels
812
00:40:32.289 --> 00:40:35.369
like it's now or never. So Thad, remember, is now
813
00:40:35.429 --> 00:40:39.469
locked inside of a closet. And he begins to desperately
814
00:40:39.610 --> 00:40:41.989
search around for a tool or an instrument that he
815
00:40:42.030 --> 00:40:44.960
could use to help bust down the closet door. And
816
00:40:45.019 --> 00:40:48.949
an instrument is exactly what his hand stumbled upon. Using
817
00:40:49.050 --> 00:40:53.250
an electric guitar he found inside the closet, Thad smashed
818
00:40:53.329 --> 00:40:56.309
down one of the panels in the closet door and
819
00:40:56.429 --> 00:40:59.829
freed himself. And he's such a good boy. In one
820
00:40:59.849 --> 00:41:02.150
of the interviews, he said that his initial reaction was,
821
00:41:02.369 --> 00:41:03.630
oh no, I busted the door.
822
00:41:03.650 --> 00:41:06.710
What? That's what you were trying to do.
823
00:41:06.750 --> 00:41:11.929
Yeah. Then, in a tremendous act of sheer will, Thad
824
00:41:12.170 --> 00:41:15.650
threw his broken body down the entire flight of steps,
825
00:41:16.389 --> 00:41:20.179
smashing each step on the way down and passing out
826
00:41:20.340 --> 00:41:24.159
at the bottom. But he kept going. He knew this
827
00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:27.199
was his last shot. He used his upper body strength
828
00:41:27.300 --> 00:41:30.320
to drag himself from the bottom of the steps to
829
00:41:30.340 --> 00:41:32.820
the kitchen where his plan was to get a hold
830
00:41:32.840 --> 00:41:37.000
of the phone. So Thad would slide himself like one
831
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:40.409
foot forward and then blackout. And then he'd wake up,
832
00:41:40.590 --> 00:41:45.099
slide himself forward one foot, blackout. And this cycle continued
833
00:41:45.420 --> 00:41:47.940
over and over again as he made his way to
834
00:41:47.980 --> 00:41:50.739
the kitchen. He lost all sense of time and he
835
00:41:50.780 --> 00:41:52.840
wasn't even sure how long it took him to crawl
836
00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:55.579
five feet. Could have been five minutes, could have been
837
00:41:55.579 --> 00:42:00.119
20 minutes. He had no concept of time, just intense fatigue,
838
00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:05.010
agonizing pain, and an overwhelming urge to persevere and survive.
839
00:42:05.030 --> 00:42:05.429
Yeah.
840
00:42:05.769 --> 00:42:09.150
And that is exactly what he did. Thad reached the
841
00:42:09.190 --> 00:42:12.429
kitchen and he pulled down the phone cord dangling down.
842
00:42:13.190 --> 00:42:16.719
So you remember phones from the 90s, right? So in interviews,
843
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:19.460
he's like, I couldn't believe how lucky I was that
844
00:42:19.500 --> 00:42:21.800
this phone had the long cord that I was able
845
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:24.699
to pull it down and that the numbers were on
846
00:42:24.719 --> 00:42:28.070
the phone itself versus on the, you know, like on
847
00:42:28.090 --> 00:42:28.510
the wall.
848
00:42:28.650 --> 00:42:28.869
Yeah.
849
00:42:29.269 --> 00:42:31.670
So otherwise he wouldn't have been able to reach the numbers.
850
00:42:32.550 --> 00:42:35.510
And I've heard the video recording of the police call
851
00:42:35.989 --> 00:42:41.809
and it is heartbreaking. So he calls, he tells dispatch
852
00:42:41.889 --> 00:42:45.650
that he's been kidnapped and that he's being tortured. Dispatch
853
00:42:45.710 --> 00:42:50.079
sends out police officers. And I've also heard the correspondence
854
00:42:50.139 --> 00:42:54.280
between the officers that were dispatched with the person who
855
00:42:54.380 --> 00:42:54.940
dispatched them.
856
00:42:55.099 --> 00:42:55.300
Yeah.
857
00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:58.420
Right. And the officers are saying, this better not be
858
00:42:58.460 --> 00:43:02.250
a joke. Like this sounds absolutely ridiculous. Keep in mind,
859
00:43:02.309 --> 00:43:06.690
it's a small town, right? When they played back Thad's call,
860
00:43:06.750 --> 00:43:09.920
he was so calm and collected that it just smelled
861
00:43:09.940 --> 00:43:10.679
of bullshit.
862
00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:11.019
Yeah.
863
00:43:11.420 --> 00:43:13.559
But thank God, they still responded.
864
00:43:13.579 --> 00:43:13.920
Yeah.
865
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:18.420
And as emergency services removed Thad from that hellhole... He
866
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:21.539
informed them that Joe mentioned that he had other victims,
867
00:43:22.059 --> 00:43:24.840
one of whom was named Chris. And I love this.
868
00:43:25.039 --> 00:43:27.300
I love this part of the story. So he's being
869
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:31.139
rescued and you hear him like whimpering, but you hear
870
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:35.000
his words very calm. And all he could think about
871
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:38.280
was telling police that there have been others.
872
00:43:38.579 --> 00:43:38.760
Yeah.
873
00:43:39.139 --> 00:43:43.630
So selfless. He couldn't remember Chris's last name. So when
874
00:43:43.710 --> 00:43:46.989
his father met Thad at the hospital after he was rescued,
875
00:43:47.050 --> 00:43:49.550
the two of them went through the phone book looking
876
00:43:49.610 --> 00:43:52.429
at all the Chris's in the area. And when they
877
00:43:52.469 --> 00:43:55.650
got to the last name Steiner, Thad knew that that
878
00:43:55.690 --> 00:43:57.630
was the name that Joe had given him when he
879
00:43:57.690 --> 00:44:01.269
revealed who he tortured to death prior to Thad.
880
00:44:01.530 --> 00:44:01.769
Wow.
881
00:44:02.309 --> 00:44:04.789
And we're going to hear about Chris Steiner shortly. So
882
00:44:05.170 --> 00:44:06.349
just put it on ice.
883
00:44:06.690 --> 00:44:07.190
Another one?
884
00:44:07.289 --> 00:44:07.510
Yep.
885
00:44:07.869 --> 00:44:08.250
Oh, boy.
886
00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:12.219
So what was the extent of the injuries facing this
887
00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:17.969
amazing child warrior, Thaddeus Phillips? After 43 grueling hours of
888
00:44:18.210 --> 00:44:22.650
ongoing trauma to his body, it was described as being
889
00:44:22.849 --> 00:44:27.159
something you would see after a particularly bad car crash.
890
00:44:27.579 --> 00:44:30.900
That's how brutalized his body was. His legs were broken
891
00:44:30.940 --> 00:44:34.659
in four places, including both femur bones and both tibias,
892
00:44:34.780 --> 00:44:38.460
which are the shin bones. And his twisted feet, both
893
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:41.300
of them, looked like they were put on his legs backwards,
894
00:44:41.389 --> 00:44:45.690
having skin reminiscent of rubber. And his toes were all
895
00:44:45.750 --> 00:44:50.250
pointing in funky directions. Thad's ankles had swollen to the
896
00:44:50.329 --> 00:44:53.920
size of softballs, while his right thigh had ballooned to
897
00:44:53.960 --> 00:44:57.969
the size of a basketball. And again, I saw a picture,
898
00:44:58.250 --> 00:45:02.630
and this is an accurate description. His legs displayed extensive
899
00:45:02.670 --> 00:45:07.110
bruising and were completely black, blue, and yellow. When Thad
900
00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:11.079
entered the hospital, he was experiencing life-threatening internal bleeding as
901
00:45:11.139 --> 00:45:14.460
well as severe dehydration, having also been deprived food and
902
00:45:14.500 --> 00:45:18.920
water during his captivity. Doctors at St. Clair's Hospital estimated
903
00:45:18.980 --> 00:45:21.800
that Thad was about two hours away from dying.
904
00:45:22.059 --> 00:45:22.320
Wow.
905
00:45:22.780 --> 00:45:22.920
Yeah.
906
00:45:22.940 --> 00:45:23.019
Yeah.
907
00:45:23.659 --> 00:45:26.530
Thad required multiple surgeries in the following years, and he
908
00:45:26.570 --> 00:45:29.889
was left with a permanent limp as a sad, lasting
909
00:45:29.929 --> 00:45:33.789
reminder of the nightmarish ordeal that he just narrowly survived.
910
00:45:34.369 --> 00:45:35.190
But he survived.
911
00:45:35.650 --> 00:45:35.869
Yeah.
912
00:45:36.610 --> 00:45:40.070
Authorities arrested Joe the night of Thad's rescue while Joe
913
00:45:40.110 --> 00:45:42.619
was at the party with his girlfriend. And when law
914
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:44.960
enforcement approached Joe at the party to arrest him for
915
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:46.260
kidnapping and abusing.
916
00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:48.400
Oh, they arrested him at the party? Yep. Oh, good.
917
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:52.340
When they went to arrest him, Joe's only comment was, oh,
918
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:53.199
he's still alive?
919
00:45:54.070 --> 00:45:54.530
Wow.
920
00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:54.889
Yeah.
921
00:45:56.070 --> 00:45:57.050
What a sick fuck.
922
00:45:57.210 --> 00:46:01.309
Fucking asshole. Police, of course, conducted a search of Joe's
923
00:46:01.369 --> 00:46:04.110
home as well, and what they uncovered in that house
924
00:46:04.530 --> 00:46:09.150
was truly chilling. Pop quiz. What was the chilling discovery
925
00:46:09.190 --> 00:46:14.889
made in Joe Clark's home? A. A saw-toothed steel hunting
926
00:46:14.949 --> 00:46:19.340
trap with a boy's Nike sneaker caught in the springs. B. B,
927
00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:22.599
a notebook containing a handwritten list of the names of
928
00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:27.860
18 local boys. C, a stack of VHS snuff films.
929
00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:30.079
Or D, all of the above.
930
00:46:30.099 --> 00:46:35.239
I feel like you're trying to trick me right now. D,
931
00:46:35.659 --> 00:46:36.320
all of the above.
932
00:46:36.639 --> 00:46:37.619
Nope, I was tricking you.
933
00:46:40.429 --> 00:46:46.349
I mean, they're all bad, but the chilling choice is...
934
00:46:47.349 --> 00:46:49.039
Is the bear trap with the Nike shoe in it.
935
00:46:49.210 --> 00:46:50.000
Yeah, no, I made that up.
936
00:46:50.510 --> 00:46:53.429
That's even worse that you made that up.
937
00:46:54.349 --> 00:46:56.030
It usually is.
938
00:46:56.090 --> 00:46:58.289
Then they found a list of 18 names.
939
00:46:58.489 --> 00:47:03.400
Yeah, correct. So during the investigation, law enforcement discovered a
940
00:47:03.510 --> 00:47:06.519
school notebook containing a list of 18 local boys' names,
941
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:08.980
all of whom were younger than Joe, and all of
942
00:47:09.019 --> 00:47:12.860
the names were arranged in three columns. And the headings
943
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:17.730
of the columns were labeled as get to know, Can wait.
944
00:47:18.309 --> 00:47:18.429
Oh.
945
00:47:18.710 --> 00:47:19.690
And leg thing.
946
00:47:19.710 --> 00:47:22.510
Oh my God.
947
00:47:22.789 --> 00:47:24.369
This is one of the best parts of doing this
948
00:47:24.409 --> 00:47:28.699
podcast is when I see your face like that. Maybe
949
00:47:28.760 --> 00:47:29.480
I'm fucked up.
950
00:47:29.820 --> 00:47:30.820
Yeah. I mean, that's.
951
00:47:31.219 --> 00:47:32.980
You're like unhappy right now.
952
00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:37.500
Is that a question? Leg thing. Yeah. Get to know.
953
00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:40.469
So it was essentially a kill and maim list.
954
00:47:41.269 --> 00:47:44.179
Yeah. what the hell was going on at home with
955
00:47:44.219 --> 00:47:44.659
this kid?
956
00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:46.579
Great question. And we're going to come around to that.
957
00:47:46.920 --> 00:47:48.619
I just want to tell you a few other items
958
00:47:48.639 --> 00:47:51.539
that they found in his house. A 48 by 40
959
00:47:51.539 --> 00:47:55.980
inch plywood board with satanic writing and illustrations, a leg brace,
960
00:47:56.219 --> 00:48:00.199
a body brace, and several VHS horror films, which like
961
00:48:00.219 --> 00:48:03.510
whatever the horror films, you know, they were amateur. I
962
00:48:03.530 --> 00:48:05.050
didn't write them down here, but they were not bad.
963
00:48:05.309 --> 00:48:05.489
Yeah.
964
00:48:06.489 --> 00:48:10.190
So who exactly is Joe Clark and how did he
965
00:48:10.230 --> 00:48:13.840
become the bone breaker? Now, much of the information I
966
00:48:13.900 --> 00:48:16.519
found on Joe's upbringing was derived from an interview I
967
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:20.309
stumbled upon between Joe and a criminologist named Dr. Lee Meller,
968
00:48:20.929 --> 00:48:23.849
as well as from subsequent court testimonies provided later on.
969
00:48:24.530 --> 00:48:27.869
Joseph Clark was born in 1977 and was actually adopted
970
00:48:28.010 --> 00:48:31.469
by the family that raised him. They were middle, maybe
971
00:48:31.570 --> 00:48:36.139
slightly lower than middle class, living in Baraboo, Wisconsin. And
972
00:48:36.179 --> 00:48:41.059
there's no evidence indicating physical or sexual abuse in his childhood.
973
00:48:41.559 --> 00:48:44.239
And he claims to have been a well-behaved child shaped
974
00:48:44.300 --> 00:48:49.320
by the positive influence of his parents. Unfortunately, however, I
975
00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:53.280
learned that his childhood was not as peachy keen as
976
00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:55.519
he explained it to the criminologist during his interview. And
977
00:48:55.659 --> 00:48:58.000
I don't know if it's like he wanted to rewrite
978
00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:00.800
history because it's too hard for him to acknowledge shit
979
00:49:00.820 --> 00:49:03.329
that may have happened in his childhood. Or maybe he,
980
00:49:03.869 --> 00:49:06.530
you know, all things considered, his childhood was okay.
981
00:49:06.550 --> 00:49:06.849
Yeah.
982
00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:11.179
But evidently, both of his parents battled severe alcoholism and
983
00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:15.130
created an adverse home environment that understandably left a profound
984
00:49:15.230 --> 00:49:17.030
impact on Joe's psychological well-being.
985
00:49:17.230 --> 00:49:17.429
Yeah.
986
00:49:17.750 --> 00:49:20.360
Right? So he would often see his parents passed out
987
00:49:20.429 --> 00:49:23.320
and drunk on the kitchen floor, which was always in
988
00:49:23.340 --> 00:49:26.079
a constant state of disarray and filth. His whole house.
989
00:49:26.119 --> 00:49:27.599
He got adopted into that home.
990
00:49:27.679 --> 00:49:32.099
Right, right. So while his parents did not overtly hurt
991
00:49:32.199 --> 00:49:36.860
him or intentionally fuck with him, their behavior and relationship
992
00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:40.719
with alcohol likely affected his mental health and behavior. Children
993
00:49:40.780 --> 00:49:44.110
who grow up with one or both parents dependent on
994
00:49:44.199 --> 00:49:48.989
alcohol can experience post-traumatic stress disorder, which can include symptoms
995
00:49:49.050 --> 00:49:55.130
like a need for control, difficulty managing emotions, low self-esteem, violence...
996
00:49:55.170 --> 00:49:59.559
Being bald. Being bald, being jacked, right? Now, obviously, this
997
00:49:59.619 --> 00:50:01.619
is not to suggest that everybody who grows up with
998
00:50:01.659 --> 00:50:03.960
parents that struggle with alcoholism are going to turn out
999
00:50:03.980 --> 00:50:09.030
with PTSD symptoms, but it's not uncommon. Something else that happened...
1000
00:50:09.199 --> 00:50:12.519
in Joe's childhood popped up in my research. At the
1001
00:50:12.619 --> 00:50:16.650
age of 15, Joe experienced a very serious dirt bike
1002
00:50:16.909 --> 00:50:20.269
accident that caused him to suffer a traumatic head injury.
1003
00:50:21.210 --> 00:50:24.469
His recollection of the incident remains fragmented. He really only
1004
00:50:24.550 --> 00:50:27.900
recalls mounting his bike on a rainy day and subsequently
1005
00:50:27.940 --> 00:50:31.800
awakening in the ICU four days later with a subdural hematoma,
1006
00:50:32.139 --> 00:50:35.820
a broken collarbone, a sprained knee, very bad road rash,
1007
00:50:36.260 --> 00:50:37.579
and a traumatic brain injury.
1008
00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:41.210
I like that explanation. Yeah. Well, as far as explaining
1009
00:50:41.250 --> 00:50:43.239
why his psyche is so twisted. Oh, yeah.
1010
00:50:43.610 --> 00:50:47.960
So Joe maintains that the head injuries he experienced had
1011
00:50:48.340 --> 00:50:51.380
negative residual effects on his ability to function and to
1012
00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:55.159
socially behave. And we've talked about traumatic brain injuries or
1013
00:50:55.199 --> 00:50:58.699
TBI before and how it can compromise important neurological functions
1014
00:50:58.739 --> 00:51:00.739
with respect to self-regulation and behavior.
1015
00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:03.139
And also, we're not saying that, okay, you have a
1016
00:51:03.179 --> 00:51:04.659
pass to do whatever you want because you have a
1017
00:51:04.659 --> 00:51:07.820
brain injury. However... When I hear of somebody who goes
1018
00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:10.780
on some kind of a rampage or commits suicide or whatever,
1019
00:51:11.400 --> 00:51:12.739
and then you find out later on that they had
1020
00:51:12.780 --> 00:51:14.780
a brain tumor pushing on the part of their brain
1021
00:51:14.820 --> 00:51:17.199
that makes them, you know, want to live.
1022
00:51:17.260 --> 00:51:18.500
Impulse control, right.
1023
00:51:18.820 --> 00:51:21.900
It's like, okay. Like when my friend Chris killed himself,
1024
00:51:22.420 --> 00:51:24.199
I was sure they were going to say that, you know,
1025
00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:25.260
he had some kind of brain tumor.
1026
00:51:25.380 --> 00:51:25.699
Right.
1027
00:51:26.139 --> 00:51:27.239
And I never found out.
1028
00:51:27.400 --> 00:51:28.599
Did he have an autopsy, do you know?
1029
00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:32.820
It's such a long story. Yeah. I don't know the
1030
00:51:32.840 --> 00:51:36.809
results of an autopsy, but he had a dramatic... dramatic
1031
00:51:36.849 --> 00:51:39.789
personality change. I mean, about a year and a half before.
1032
00:51:39.809 --> 00:51:41.409
A TBI could explain that.
1033
00:51:41.429 --> 00:51:44.050
He didn't have a traumatic brain injury, but if something
1034
00:51:44.090 --> 00:51:46.710
was growing in his brain that grew from three to
1035
00:51:46.750 --> 00:51:49.199
four millimeters and that extra millimeter started pushing on a
1036
00:51:49.239 --> 00:51:52.139
part of his brain, that would have made sense to me. Right.
1037
00:51:52.179 --> 00:51:55.239
Because it was such a dramatic personality change. Yeah. Different,
1038
00:51:55.300 --> 00:51:55.780
different guy.
1039
00:51:55.800 --> 00:51:57.719
That's so sad. I'm sorry.
1040
00:51:57.739 --> 00:51:58.519
It's okay.
1041
00:51:59.059 --> 00:52:02.420
Think of a TBI like dropping a computer, right? You
1042
00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:05.380
harm the central processing system of the device or the
1043
00:52:05.420 --> 00:52:07.639
brain and It's more likely to malfunction.
1044
00:52:07.860 --> 00:52:08.039
Yeah.
1045
00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:09.320
Not guaranteed, but more likely.
1046
00:52:09.340 --> 00:52:09.639
Yeah.
1047
00:52:10.119 --> 00:52:13.000
The effects of TBI can be significant and encompass issues
1048
00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:17.760
like anger, aggression, impaired judgment, and diminished impulse control. So
1049
00:52:17.800 --> 00:52:19.969
it's not really surprising to know that there exists a
1050
00:52:19.989 --> 00:52:22.809
correlation between TBI and violent crime.
1051
00:52:22.829 --> 00:52:23.210
Yeah.
1052
00:52:23.389 --> 00:52:27.949
The question is, how significant is the correlation? Pop quiz.
1053
00:52:28.449 --> 00:52:31.989
You tell me. What percentage of individuals within the criminal
1054
00:52:32.030 --> 00:52:36.090
justice system have reported a history of TBI? A, less
1055
00:52:36.110 --> 00:52:42.369
than 20%, B, up to 60%, C, over 90%.
1056
00:52:42.369 --> 00:52:46.559
What percentage of people in the criminal justice system have
1057
00:52:46.619 --> 00:52:50.659
a history of a traumatic brain injury? Less than 20,
1058
00:52:50.659 --> 00:52:52.679
up to 60, more than 90.
1059
00:52:52.679 --> 00:52:54.960
Your short-term memory is on point.
1060
00:52:54.980 --> 00:52:56.659
I couldn't do it again. Fuck me.
1061
00:52:58.429 --> 00:52:59.199
Don't even try it.
1062
00:52:59.199 --> 00:53:04.710
Adjustment, adjustment, adjustment, fucking shit. I'm going to say up
1063
00:53:04.750 --> 00:53:07.579
to 60%. Yes. Yeah.
1064
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:09.780
Proud of you. Nice job.
1065
00:53:10.039 --> 00:53:10.539
Pretty high.
1066
00:53:10.780 --> 00:53:14.369
It's very high. And these statistics underscore the profound connection
1067
00:53:14.409 --> 00:53:17.849
between TBI and acts of violence. So my family's law
1068
00:53:17.909 --> 00:53:21.630
firm where I work have handled many NFL cases in
1069
00:53:21.670 --> 00:53:25.420
which former players suffer TBI while playing football. And it
1070
00:53:25.460 --> 00:53:29.599
can be very, very impactful, the traumatic brain injuries. So
1071
00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:31.940
the things that we would see would be memory and
1072
00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:38.840
thinking problems, confusion, personality changes, erratic behavior, depression, suicidal thinking.
1073
00:53:39.079 --> 00:53:43.989
It's serious. Roughly two years after Joe Clark's dirt bike
1074
00:53:44.110 --> 00:53:48.090
accident is when this new family, the Phillips, arrived in
1075
00:53:48.130 --> 00:53:51.010
his small country town, bringing with them a 13-year-old boy
1076
00:53:51.050 --> 00:53:51.630
named Thad.
1077
00:53:51.769 --> 00:53:52.670
About how long after?
1078
00:53:53.090 --> 00:53:53.670
About two years.
1079
00:53:54.329 --> 00:53:56.409
But he had already done this twice before, before Thad.
1080
00:53:57.230 --> 00:54:00.989
Very good. When he did that, it was still after
1081
00:54:01.010 --> 00:54:02.130
the brain injury.
1082
00:54:02.150 --> 00:54:02.969
Oh, yeah.
1083
00:54:03.190 --> 00:54:06.690
Mm-hmm. And this brings us to where we left off
1084
00:54:06.710 --> 00:54:10.400
in the case, right? With him meeting Thad, torturing Thad,
1085
00:54:10.840 --> 00:54:12.980
Thad escaping. Joe's now arrested.
1086
00:54:13.280 --> 00:54:13.500
Yeah.
1087
00:54:14.179 --> 00:54:17.460
In October 1997, Joe Clark was charged with the following
1088
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:20.800
crimes relating to what he'd done to 13-year-old Thad Phillips.
1089
00:54:21.039 --> 00:54:21.340
Mayhem?
1090
00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:21.429
Yes.
1091
00:54:21.960 --> 00:54:22.300
Yes.
1092
00:54:22.929 --> 00:54:24.750
Nice. Do you remember what mayhem is?
1093
00:54:25.670 --> 00:54:26.389
Something crazy.
1094
00:54:27.590 --> 00:54:30.409
Nailed it. It's a class C felony in which there
1095
00:54:30.469 --> 00:54:33.110
is intent to disable or disfigure. Yeah.
1096
00:54:33.369 --> 00:54:33.630
Okay.
1097
00:54:34.010 --> 00:54:37.590
So he was charged with mayhem, attempted first degree intentional homicide,
1098
00:54:37.949 --> 00:54:42.059
mental harm to a child, child enticement, and causing great
1099
00:54:42.119 --> 00:54:43.440
bodily harm to a child.
1100
00:54:43.639 --> 00:54:43.780
Yeah.
1101
00:54:43.800 --> 00:54:46.860
He was also charged with burglary. And I really, I
1102
00:54:47.119 --> 00:54:49.340
didn't spend too much time admittedly on trying to figure
1103
00:54:49.380 --> 00:54:51.989
out why the burglary charge happened. I was talking to
1104
00:54:52.030 --> 00:54:54.280
Dave about this, my husband, and he's like, maybe because
1105
00:54:54.340 --> 00:54:56.980
he stole that. I'm like, no, no.
1106
00:54:57.420 --> 00:55:00.739
Well, what is burglary when you break into someone's house? Yes.
1107
00:55:01.280 --> 00:55:02.820
That's my understanding, but.
1108
00:55:03.059 --> 00:55:05.179
So he wouldn't be charged with robbery.
1109
00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:08.420
Oh, wow. That was actually so simple. I missed it.
1110
00:55:08.639 --> 00:55:09.599
I don't even know if that's true.
1111
00:55:09.619 --> 00:55:11.219
I don't know. That sounded really good. That was very
1112
00:55:11.260 --> 00:55:11.679
well thought out.
1113
00:55:11.699 --> 00:55:13.880
How was he not charged with kidnapping? So.
1114
00:55:14.510 --> 00:55:16.409
Joe maintains, to this day.
1115
00:55:16.429 --> 00:55:18.469
That he willingly... Correct. Yeah.
1116
00:55:18.510 --> 00:55:20.690
Which is why he was charged with child enticement, which
1117
00:55:20.750 --> 00:55:23.429
is luring a minor under the age of 17 into
1118
00:55:23.469 --> 00:55:26.150
a vehicle, building, or secluded location for the purpose of
1119
00:55:26.190 --> 00:55:29.550
committing a crime against said child. So he was charged
1120
00:55:29.570 --> 00:55:30.530
with child enticement.
1121
00:55:30.550 --> 00:55:32.989
Do you know what kidnapping is? Do you?
1122
00:55:33.210 --> 00:55:33.750
Are you asking?
1123
00:55:34.590 --> 00:55:37.010
No, I remember I watched a clip of a podcast
1124
00:55:37.030 --> 00:55:39.130
with this guy who went to jail for kidnapping, even
1125
00:55:39.150 --> 00:55:41.309
though it was the whole big story where a guy
1126
00:55:41.329 --> 00:55:44.010
sold him a car... And then the car was a
1127
00:55:44.030 --> 00:55:45.550
piece of shit. So we went to the guy's house
1128
00:55:46.269 --> 00:55:49.469
and kidnapping legally, I think I may be off by
1129
00:55:49.489 --> 00:55:53.329
a couple of feet or whatever. It's willfully forcing somebody
1130
00:55:53.409 --> 00:55:56.429
to move more than like 20 feet or something like that.
1131
00:55:56.800 --> 00:56:00.019
So he was charged with kidnapping this guy. Wow. Yeah.
1132
00:56:00.260 --> 00:56:00.960
That's really interesting.
1133
00:56:00.980 --> 00:56:02.539
And because he was charged with kidnapping, he was in
1134
00:56:02.559 --> 00:56:04.320
like this maximum security prison.
1135
00:56:04.380 --> 00:56:04.679
Right.
1136
00:56:04.940 --> 00:56:07.159
Which he did not, it was like a car transaction
1137
00:56:07.239 --> 00:56:07.780
gone wrong.
1138
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:09.239
It's crazy.
1139
00:56:09.380 --> 00:56:09.619
Yeah.
1140
00:56:09.800 --> 00:56:13.360
Very interesting though. Judge Virginia Woolf was officially presiding over
1141
00:56:13.400 --> 00:56:16.079
this case and ruled that Joe Clark would be tried
1142
00:56:16.119 --> 00:56:16.679
as an adult.
1143
00:56:16.860 --> 00:56:17.280
The author?
1144
00:56:17.940 --> 00:56:18.699
No, not the author.
1145
00:56:18.820 --> 00:56:20.360
The judge. Wow. I was going to say, she's pretty
1146
00:56:20.380 --> 00:56:22.159
good at a lot of stuff. So she was... Wait,
1147
00:56:22.179 --> 00:56:23.690
say that again because I was thinking of the joke.
1148
00:56:24.190 --> 00:56:27.320
She was....
1149
00:56:27.429 --> 00:56:30.429
I said that Judge Virginia Woolf was officially presiding over
1150
00:56:30.469 --> 00:56:32.769
the case and ruled that Joe Clark would be tried
1151
00:56:32.829 --> 00:56:33.409
as an adult.
1152
00:56:33.530 --> 00:56:34.070
Got it. Okay.
1153
00:56:34.789 --> 00:56:37.780
So the trial began in early September of 1995. And
1154
00:56:37.820 --> 00:56:41.000
on September 7th, which is my anniversary... Joe stood before
1155
00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:44.260
the judge and pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity.
1156
00:56:45.019 --> 00:56:48.539
His defense argued that his biological mother was a heavy
1157
00:56:48.599 --> 00:56:51.800
drug user throughout most of her pregnancy that caused him
1158
00:56:51.880 --> 00:56:56.599
to experience a range of developmental, psychological, and emotional disabilities
1159
00:56:56.639 --> 00:57:00.909
and disorders. Joe Clark's defense attorney, Mark Frank, what's with
1160
00:57:00.949 --> 00:57:03.849
all these people with their first name and their last name? First,
1161
00:57:04.269 --> 00:57:06.550
they're all names. Mark Frank, Joe Clark.
1162
00:57:06.829 --> 00:57:11.179
Virginia Woolf. There are two wolves inside of you. I'll
1163
00:57:11.800 --> 00:57:16.340
say something that maybe I shouldn't. Objectively speaking, for him,
1164
00:57:17.059 --> 00:57:20.610
even though he did horrific things to this guy, the
1165
00:57:21.489 --> 00:57:24.050
insanity plea makes sense to me.
1166
00:57:24.869 --> 00:57:26.789
You know what it is to be legally insane, right?
1167
00:57:27.469 --> 00:57:30.849
You don't know what you're doing when you're doing it. Right. So, yes,
1168
00:57:31.309 --> 00:57:33.730
I mean, fuck. I mean, listen, if I, let's say
1169
00:57:33.769 --> 00:57:36.739
that I had a traumatic brain injury and I did
1170
00:57:36.780 --> 00:57:39.179
this to somebody. I don't know if I should go
1171
00:57:39.219 --> 00:57:41.019
to jail or if I should go to a hospital,
1172
00:57:41.239 --> 00:57:42.800
even though the hospital is going to suck too because
1173
00:57:42.820 --> 00:57:43.679
I'm going to be there forever.
1174
00:57:43.739 --> 00:57:46.619
Right. Well, this is why there are trials because you
1175
00:57:46.659 --> 00:57:49.989
need witnesses, you need expert testimony, and you need people
1176
00:57:50.030 --> 00:57:54.389
to assess every aspect of the situation to determine which
1177
00:57:54.449 --> 00:57:57.309
parts of his life affected his decision-making, if at all.
1178
00:57:57.789 --> 00:57:59.449
Yeah, I mean, if you had a traumatic brain injury
1179
00:57:59.570 --> 00:58:01.329
and you were in utero and your mother was using
1180
00:58:01.369 --> 00:58:04.230
drugs and your brain is all fucked up, you obviously
1181
00:58:04.269 --> 00:58:06.849
still have to answer for what you did, but maybe
1182
00:58:06.889 --> 00:58:08.449
just in a... A different way.
1183
00:58:08.550 --> 00:58:08.750
Right.
1184
00:58:08.769 --> 00:58:09.449
I don't know.
1185
00:58:10.030 --> 00:58:14.150
So his defense attorney argued all of that. TBI, after
1186
00:58:14.190 --> 00:58:16.809
the bike crash, the drug use of his birth mother.
1187
00:58:16.829 --> 00:58:20.269
And he, of course, had medical reports to show and
1188
00:58:20.289 --> 00:58:22.570
to support that he really did have a blood clot
1189
00:58:22.610 --> 00:58:25.889
between the skull and the brain, which is a subdural hematoma,
1190
00:58:26.360 --> 00:58:31.159
following the accident. As such, Mark Frank argued to the court.
1191
00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:32.659
Mark Frank what? What's his last name?
1192
00:58:33.400 --> 00:58:33.579
Right.
1193
00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:33.800
Exactly.
1194
00:58:33.820 --> 00:58:36.989
Exactly. argued to the court that Joe suffered from a
1195
00:58:37.030 --> 00:58:41.130
continued deterioration and abnormality of the mind. He had a
1196
00:58:41.170 --> 00:58:46.090
bunch of lay witnesses, meaning non-medical professionals, including Joe's mother, Bertha,
1197
00:58:46.369 --> 00:58:49.889
testify that they noticed a dramatic shift in Joe's personality
1198
00:58:49.949 --> 00:58:56.989
following the accident, including things like hallucinations, psychotic behaviors, suicidal ideation, delusions,
1199
00:58:57.250 --> 00:59:02.070
and social impairment. But the prosecutor, Patricia Barrett, who's actually
1200
00:59:02.090 --> 00:59:05.030
now a judge, she became a judge in 2018, She
1201
00:59:05.070 --> 00:59:10.360
basically annihilated these witnesses on cross-examination. So listen to what
1202
00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:14.320
she did to Joe's mother on the stand. If you
1203
00:59:14.340 --> 00:59:17.420
wear prescription glasses or sunglasses, you probably know the drill.
1204
00:59:17.719 --> 00:59:20.550
You hang on to the same pair until they're practically
1205
00:59:20.840 --> 00:59:23.050
begging to be replaced. Scratch lenses?
1206
00:59:23.289 --> 00:59:23.630
Whatever.
1207
00:59:23.969 --> 00:59:26.880
Loose screw? We'll survive. Because who wants to shell out
1208
00:59:26.920 --> 00:59:28.780
a few hundred bucks for a new pair when the
1209
00:59:28.840 --> 00:59:32.090
old ones are still technically doing their job? Well, Zenni
1210
00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:35.869
changes that. Zenni is an online eyewear shop with stylish
1211
00:59:35.929 --> 00:59:40.550
prescription glasses, sunglasses, and customizable lens options at prices that
1212
00:59:40.610 --> 00:59:43.690
make it easy to own more than one pair, all
1213
00:59:43.730 --> 00:59:48.150
starting at under $ 30. You go to zenni.com, pick a frame,
1214
00:59:48.510 --> 00:59:52.340
enter your prescription, customize your lenses, and they ship right
1215
00:59:52.409 --> 00:59:56.210
to your door. No store visit, no pressure. Zenni has
1216
00:59:56.369 --> 01:00:01.710
over 150,000 five-star reviews. And if you've never bought glasses online,
1217
01:00:02.030 --> 01:00:05.070
Zenni has a virtual try-on, so you can see exactly
1218
01:00:05.130 --> 01:00:07.730
how a frame looks on your face before you order.
1219
01:00:08.190 --> 01:00:11.750
I ordered myself a pair of Mulholland sunglasses, which, first
1220
01:00:11.769 --> 01:00:14.489
of all, was super fun because I got to customize
1221
01:00:14.760 --> 01:00:18.539
so much. So they're my usual style, only better. Think
1222
01:00:18.860 --> 01:00:24.000
oversized Hollywood glam, black-rimmed, purple lenses, so fly. And they
1223
01:00:24.039 --> 01:00:27.739
cost around $ 80. I would have paid double, triple that
1224
01:00:27.900 --> 01:00:32.050
somewhere else. That scratched-up pair has done its job. Upgrade
1225
01:00:32.090 --> 01:00:36.289
today with Zenni. Go to zenni.com slash podcast and use
1226
01:00:36.349 --> 01:00:40.969
code podcast15 for 15% off your first order, plus free
1227
01:00:41.010 --> 01:00:45.369
shipping on all U.S. orders over $ 65. The styles sell out,
1228
01:00:45.429 --> 01:00:50.460
so don't sit on it. That's Z-E-N-N-I dot com slash
1229
01:00:50.539 --> 01:00:55.679
podcast promo code podcast 15. She argued that given Bertha's
1230
01:00:55.880 --> 01:00:59.090
eighth grade education, she was not capable of making a
1231
01:00:59.110 --> 01:01:02.329
psychiatric observation of her son and to speak knowledgeably about
1232
01:01:02.389 --> 01:01:06.190
personality changes with respect to brain injuries. And to prove
1233
01:01:06.250 --> 01:01:10.190
her lack of intelligence, the prosecution handed Bertha a paperclip
1234
01:01:10.309 --> 01:01:12.489
and a ruler on the stand and asked her to
1235
01:01:12.530 --> 01:01:15.800
tell them how big the paperclip measured in centimeters.
1236
01:01:15.969 --> 01:01:19.300
Wow. Imagine if they asked her, if you were going
1237
01:01:19.300 --> 01:01:22.219
60 miles per hour, how far would you go?
1238
01:01:22.239 --> 01:01:23.820
Like an SAT question.
1239
01:01:23.840 --> 01:01:26.699
In one hour. You ever watch people struggle with that
1240
01:01:26.780 --> 01:01:28.710
on like the internet videos of that?
1241
01:01:28.829 --> 01:01:29.110
No.
1242
01:01:29.130 --> 01:01:30.530
Oh, it's the funniest thing ever.
1243
01:01:30.670 --> 01:01:32.610
No, but I would definitely struggle with that.
1244
01:01:32.849 --> 01:01:35.510
If you're traveling at 60 miles an hour, how far
1245
01:01:35.550 --> 01:01:36.869
would you go in one hour?
1246
01:01:36.869 --> 01:01:37.989
60 miles.
1247
01:01:38.210 --> 01:01:40.280
Okay, good. You got it. I watch people go like,
1248
01:01:40.300 --> 01:01:41.400
I don't know, like 50.
1249
01:01:41.400 --> 01:01:46.599
It's great. So I don't like this tactic by the prosecution.
1250
01:01:46.659 --> 01:01:48.860
I think it's a low blow. And I think that
1251
01:01:48.880 --> 01:01:51.280
they should have leaned heavier on the fact that Bertha
1252
01:01:51.380 --> 01:01:54.500
and her husband, so Joe's parents, in spite of allegedly
1253
01:01:54.559 --> 01:01:57.860
noticing these alarming changes in their son's personality following the accident,
1254
01:01:58.400 --> 01:01:59.239
never got him help.
1255
01:01:59.639 --> 01:02:01.409
Hindsight is always 20-20. Yeah.
1256
01:02:01.929 --> 01:02:05.610
The prosecution presented school records as evidence of Joe's violent
1257
01:02:05.650 --> 01:02:09.070
behavioral tendencies, revealing how he threatened to kill a teacher
1258
01:02:09.250 --> 01:02:12.349
and how he punched another student. And he was given
1259
01:02:12.409 --> 01:02:15.769
psych evaluations following those violent incidents at school, and they
1260
01:02:15.829 --> 01:02:19.269
turned up blank in the way of diagnoses or some
1261
01:02:19.329 --> 01:02:23.489
type of proof of an escalation of violence, right? And
1262
01:02:23.650 --> 01:02:26.230
it just further proved the prosecution's case that Joe Clark
1263
01:02:26.630 --> 01:02:31.199
did not suffer from a diminished psychological capacity. My understanding
1264
01:02:31.260 --> 01:02:35.119
is that he had a reputation around Baraboo as being
1265
01:02:35.159 --> 01:02:36.460
a bully always.
1266
01:02:36.900 --> 01:02:37.739
Baraboo, bad boy.
1267
01:02:38.139 --> 01:02:41.099
Yeah, and there's something that I'll reveal very shortly to
1268
01:02:41.400 --> 01:02:45.159
back that up. The defense suffered another blow when their
1269
01:02:45.219 --> 01:02:49.579
star witness took the stand, that star witness being Thaddeus Phillips.
1270
01:02:51.019 --> 01:02:54.659
Thad recounted his harrowing experience at the hands of Joe Clark,
1271
01:02:54.860 --> 01:02:59.559
the bonebreaker, with meticulous precision, providing a vivid and comprehensive
1272
01:02:59.579 --> 01:03:03.460
account of every descriptive detail. When asked, what did your
1273
01:03:03.519 --> 01:03:06.170
foot look like after the initial assault on his ankle,
1274
01:03:06.190 --> 01:03:11.349
Thad just calmly replied, backwards. He also indicated that Joe
1275
01:03:11.369 --> 01:03:14.949
would masturbate in front of him, relishing in Thad's pain.
1276
01:03:14.969 --> 01:03:16.429
He masturbated in front of him?
1277
01:03:16.590 --> 01:03:19.610
That's what Thad says. Joe denies it.
1278
01:03:19.630 --> 01:03:20.800
You didn't mention that to him.
1279
01:03:20.860 --> 01:03:22.340
No, I'm bringing it up here and now.
1280
01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:23.260
Oh boy.
1281
01:03:23.880 --> 01:03:26.960
On the stand, Thad displayed a level of maturity well
1282
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:30.599
beyond his years and only required one break during his
1283
01:03:30.699 --> 01:03:35.389
whole testimony. after getting emotional on the stand. A very well-known,
1284
01:03:35.429 --> 01:03:39.869
respected forensic psychiatrist named Park Dietz also took the stand
1285
01:03:39.889 --> 01:03:44.449
to testify. And Park Dietz is a baller. He also
1286
01:03:44.489 --> 01:03:48.260
testified in some pretty high-profile cases, including the likes of
1287
01:03:48.659 --> 01:03:54.079
Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Kaczynski, the DC sniper attacks, and Betty Broderick.
1288
01:03:54.320 --> 01:03:57.099
Who's Betty Broderick? What? I don't know who Betty Broderick is.
1289
01:03:57.099 --> 01:03:59.679
Oh my God, you have to watch Dirty John on Netflix.
1290
01:03:59.739 --> 01:04:00.980
Oh, I know who that is. Okay. Okay.
1291
01:04:02.179 --> 01:04:06.059
According to Dietz, Joe Clark is a serial sexual sadist
1292
01:04:06.099 --> 01:04:09.000
who takes pleasure in breaking his victim's legs, but his
1293
01:04:09.099 --> 01:04:13.639
antisocial personality disorder is not a legal defense to his crimes.
1294
01:04:14.980 --> 01:04:17.489
He had leg thing in the book. He did. It's
1295
01:04:17.530 --> 01:04:20.829
not like he snapped and just started breaking legs.
1296
01:04:21.030 --> 01:04:22.010
Premeditation.
1297
01:04:22.130 --> 01:04:22.769
Yeah. Right?
1298
01:04:22.829 --> 01:04:26.349
He planned it. He stalked these boys. He watched that
1299
01:04:26.469 --> 01:04:28.610
for two weeks before breaking into his house.
1300
01:04:28.630 --> 01:04:31.070
Yeah. And knew the pattern of turning the lights off
1301
01:04:31.110 --> 01:04:31.670
and locking the door.
1302
01:04:31.690 --> 01:04:36.590
Right, exactly. And because of the masturbation, it now elevates
1303
01:04:36.690 --> 01:04:39.429
what we're seeing in terms of not a diagnosis, but
1304
01:04:39.449 --> 01:04:41.110
in terms of being able to label him.
1305
01:04:41.130 --> 01:04:41.530
Yeah.
1306
01:04:41.630 --> 01:04:43.929
So he's not just a psychopath.
1307
01:04:44.110 --> 01:04:44.309
Yeah.
1308
01:04:44.550 --> 01:04:46.210
But he's a sexual sadist as well.
1309
01:04:46.449 --> 01:04:46.690
Yeah.
1310
01:04:47.409 --> 01:04:51.110
At trial, Joe also claimed that he had no recollection
1311
01:04:51.219 --> 01:04:54.340
whatsoever about any of the events that took place over
1312
01:04:54.380 --> 01:04:57.039
the course of Thad's abduction. In fact, he went on
1313
01:04:57.079 --> 01:05:00.909
to say that he blanked out, that Joe blanked out,
1314
01:05:01.010 --> 01:05:04.760
and when he came to, Thad was, quote, bellyaching about
1315
01:05:04.800 --> 01:05:05.260
his legs.
1316
01:05:07.860 --> 01:05:11.579
I mean, douchebag. Yeah, it sounds like something my dad
1317
01:05:11.599 --> 01:05:14.239
would say if I was, like, complaining about something. I'll
1318
01:05:14.260 --> 01:05:16.980
quit your bellyaching. Hey, Elmer Fudd.
1319
01:05:17.880 --> 01:05:21.179
Park Dietz indicated that Joe was faking his amnesia and
1320
01:05:21.300 --> 01:05:24.460
falsely claiming every type of hallucination known to man in
1321
01:05:24.559 --> 01:05:26.739
order to avoid responsibility for his crimes.
1322
01:05:26.900 --> 01:05:27.079
Yeah.
1323
01:05:27.639 --> 01:05:31.800
After just one hour of deliberation, the jury determined that
1324
01:05:31.840 --> 01:05:34.559
Joseph Clark was sane at the time during which he
1325
01:05:34.599 --> 01:05:38.320
committed the crime. As such, Joe Clark was sentenced to
1326
01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:42.630
100 years in prison in the Columbia County Jail in Portage, Wisconsin.
1327
01:05:42.829 --> 01:05:44.710
Wow. He's still in jail? Yeah. Oh, yeah.
1328
01:05:45.449 --> 01:05:48.949
Now, during the trial, Thad also provided testimony indicating that
1329
01:05:49.050 --> 01:05:52.260
Joe confessed to the murder of another boy named Chris Steiner.
1330
01:05:53.159 --> 01:05:57.730
14-year-old Chris Steiner, real name Christian, vanished from his home
1331
01:05:57.889 --> 01:06:01.269
a year prior on July 4th, 1994, and he was
1332
01:06:01.329 --> 01:06:04.329
found dead, draped over a tree stump on the banks
1333
01:06:04.630 --> 01:06:08.170
of the Wisconsin River at 8.15 p.m. on July 10th.
1334
01:06:08.789 --> 01:06:11.210
At the time, his body was severely bloated from being
1335
01:06:11.230 --> 01:06:15.269
in the water and showed signs of considerable decomposition, so
1336
01:06:15.309 --> 01:06:18.409
much so that he could only be ID'd using dental records.
1337
01:06:19.159 --> 01:06:21.480
Although the cause of death was determined to be drowning,
1338
01:06:22.090 --> 01:06:27.280
the circumstances surrounding his untimely death remained undetermined. So that's
1339
01:06:27.320 --> 01:06:32.400
what the initial autopsy revealed. And with that level of decomposition,
1340
01:06:32.420 --> 01:06:35.139
it was difficult for the medical examiner to determine what,
1341
01:06:35.199 --> 01:06:38.760
if any, injuries to the body were sustained before death
1342
01:06:38.940 --> 01:06:42.619
versus after. So all they could really conclusively say was
1343
01:06:42.639 --> 01:06:47.250
that he drowned. But following Thad's testimony, Chris's remains were
1344
01:06:47.289 --> 01:06:51.750
exhumed and re-examined by the forensic pathologist, Dr. Robert Huntington,
1345
01:06:52.340 --> 01:06:57.179
who discovered that Chris's legs had suffered four distinct fractures
1346
01:06:57.239 --> 01:07:00.610
to his ankles and his knees. It was therefore determined
1347
01:07:00.670 --> 01:07:03.630
that Chris had been thrown into the water in his
1348
01:07:03.809 --> 01:07:07.840
injured state, rendering him unable to use his legs to swim,
1349
01:07:08.260 --> 01:07:13.860
which ultimately caused him to drown. So... Prosecutors argued that
1350
01:07:13.900 --> 01:07:17.480
the injuries to the two boys were not only similar
1351
01:07:17.519 --> 01:07:22.489
in nature, but also indicative of which of the following things?
1352
01:07:23.230 --> 01:07:30.949
Pop quiz. A. Joe's modus operandi. B. Joe's signature or trademark. C.
1353
01:07:31.389 --> 01:07:32.820
Joe's need to stage.
1354
01:07:33.619 --> 01:07:34.360
Joe's signature.
1355
01:07:34.380 --> 01:07:35.019
No. No.
1356
01:07:38.170 --> 01:07:41.889
Joe's modus operandi. Yeah. I don't know what need to
1357
01:07:41.929 --> 01:07:42.610
stage means.
1358
01:07:42.860 --> 01:07:45.099
Okay, that's what I'm here for. Okay. So these are
1359
01:07:45.280 --> 01:07:49.679
all very nuanced terms that are important investigative tools for
1360
01:07:49.719 --> 01:07:53.480
law enforcement. Because if you can learn to recognize crime
1361
01:07:53.559 --> 01:07:57.980
scene manifestations or like behavioral patterns, it can help you
1362
01:07:58.019 --> 01:08:01.559
to identify the offender and to distinguish between different offenders.
1363
01:08:01.960 --> 01:08:04.070
So you know when you're analyzing a crime scene if
1364
01:08:04.119 --> 01:08:06.840
it was done by the same person or not. So
1365
01:08:06.980 --> 01:08:10.500
modus operandi is a method of operation. It's a particular
1366
01:08:10.539 --> 01:08:13.900
way of doing something that indicates or suggests the work
1367
01:08:13.940 --> 01:08:17.020
of a single criminal in more than one crime. So here,
1368
01:08:17.460 --> 01:08:21.750
the modus operandi were the four fractures. A signature applies
1369
01:08:21.869 --> 01:08:25.569
mostly to serial killers and is an offender's personal mark
1370
01:08:25.710 --> 01:08:28.470
left on a victim or crime scene that is unique
1371
01:08:28.489 --> 01:08:31.989
unto them. So remember in Home Alone... When the burglars
1372
01:08:32.050 --> 01:08:34.340
would clog the kitchen sink and then purposely flood it.
1373
01:08:34.439 --> 01:08:35.079
Yeah, the wet bandits.
1374
01:08:35.100 --> 01:08:37.140
The wet bandits, exactly. That was their signature.
1375
01:08:37.359 --> 01:08:37.539
Yeah.
1376
01:08:38.279 --> 01:08:41.819
Staging is the deliberate alteration of the crime scene, either
1377
01:08:41.880 --> 01:08:45.079
for shock value or to throw investigators off their scent.
1378
01:08:45.100 --> 01:08:45.819
Interesting.
1379
01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:50.590
So a lot of freaks will, let's say, decapitate their
1380
01:08:50.619 --> 01:08:52.609
victim and put the head in the refrigerator.
1381
01:08:52.829 --> 01:08:53.029
Yeah.
1382
01:08:53.069 --> 01:08:55.689
You know what I mean? It's staging for shock value.
1383
01:08:55.810 --> 01:08:57.470
I was here. Right. Is what they're saying.
1384
01:08:58.069 --> 01:09:00.979
So now the trial of Joe Clark... for the murder
1385
01:09:01.020 --> 01:09:05.100
of Chris Steiner was set to begin. But something fucking
1386
01:09:05.239 --> 01:09:09.149
insane happened right before that trial was supposed to start.
1387
01:09:09.710 --> 01:09:13.859
Pop quiz. I know we just did one. But what happened? A.
1388
01:09:14.210 --> 01:09:17.149
Thad was shot by a hunting rifle after opening his
1389
01:09:17.189 --> 01:09:20.840
front door. B. B, Joe jumped off a roof and
1390
01:09:20.880 --> 01:09:24.680
broke nearly every bone in his own body. C, it
1391
01:09:24.720 --> 01:09:27.800
was discovered that Joe's girlfriend somehow got a seat on
1392
01:09:27.840 --> 01:09:28.300
the jury.
1393
01:09:28.319 --> 01:09:32.100
Oh. B.
1394
01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:34.119
Joe jumped off a roof? No.
1395
01:09:34.739 --> 01:09:36.189
I thought he just wanted to hear his bones break.
1396
01:09:36.199 --> 01:09:37.829
Yeah, I know. That's why I created that.
1397
01:09:38.569 --> 01:09:41.189
His girlfriend got a seat on the jury?
1398
01:09:41.449 --> 01:09:41.670
No.
1399
01:09:41.890 --> 01:09:44.430
I'm back, baby. I'm back to sucking shit.
1400
01:09:44.550 --> 01:09:45.930
It's the tank we know and love.
1401
01:09:45.989 --> 01:09:49.470
At Pop Quizzes. I don't even remember what A was. Oh,
1402
01:09:49.510 --> 01:09:50.229
he got shot?
1403
01:09:50.329 --> 01:09:56.130
Yes. This is astounding to me. So a 15-year-old boy
1404
01:09:56.369 --> 01:10:00.560
named Michael Hubsch, so this kid Michael, 15 years old,
1405
01:10:01.260 --> 01:10:04.979
lived across the street from Joe Clark. He shot Thad
1406
01:10:05.180 --> 01:10:08.199
twice in the back with a hunting rifle after getting
1407
01:10:08.239 --> 01:10:09.550
Thad to open his front door.
1408
01:10:09.560 --> 01:10:11.529
So... Wait, what?
1409
01:10:11.729 --> 01:10:15.090
Michael was good friends with Joe and he was resentful
1410
01:10:15.210 --> 01:10:19.069
of Thad for testifying against Joe. And he wanted to
1411
01:10:19.170 --> 01:10:23.529
prevent him from being able to testify at Kristiner's trial.
1412
01:10:24.289 --> 01:10:31.039
So he shot him twice. But guess what? Thad survived
1413
01:10:31.100 --> 01:10:33.000
because that's what Thad does.
1414
01:10:33.479 --> 01:10:36.359
What the fuck? What kind of neighborhood?
1415
01:10:36.380 --> 01:10:38.159
Well, I'm going to tell you what kind of person
1416
01:10:38.199 --> 01:10:43.279
Michael was. In 2013, so years after, he was sentenced
1417
01:10:43.340 --> 01:10:46.180
to 12 years in prison after sexually assaulting a young girl.
1418
01:10:46.380 --> 01:10:47.420
What about shooting Thad?
1419
01:10:48.140 --> 01:10:50.239
It's funny you say that. I don't know what he got.
1420
01:10:50.359 --> 01:10:52.319
He was a minor at the time. I'm not sure
1421
01:10:52.359 --> 01:10:54.270
what his penalty was at the time, but he was
1422
01:10:54.750 --> 01:10:57.029
in the world to a point where he was sexually
1423
01:10:57.069 --> 01:11:03.350
abusing children. Yeah. Anyway, Thad, who was injured once again,
1424
01:11:03.890 --> 01:11:06.609
refused to back down and give up once again.
1425
01:11:06.630 --> 01:11:07.270
What a boss.
1426
01:11:07.310 --> 01:11:11.850
He is king. He was determined to take down Joe
1427
01:11:11.909 --> 01:11:14.470
Clark in every way that he could and to help
1428
01:11:14.529 --> 01:11:17.579
bring some justice to Chris Steiner. So in spite of
1429
01:11:17.640 --> 01:11:20.079
being shot twice in the back with a fucking rifle,
1430
01:11:20.760 --> 01:11:24.119
Saad still showed up at the trial... and provided his testimony.
1431
01:11:24.880 --> 01:11:27.199
And in the case of Chris's murder, Joe elected to
1432
01:11:27.260 --> 01:11:30.050
plead not guilty. There was obviously a lot of damning
1433
01:11:30.119 --> 01:11:32.869
evidence and testimony that was very, very interesting, but I
1434
01:11:33.090 --> 01:11:35.130
can't go into it here because we'd be here for
1435
01:11:35.149 --> 01:11:37.989
like three hours. But the bottom line is that less
1436
01:11:38.050 --> 01:11:41.479
than one week following his guilty verdict in Thad's trial,
1437
01:11:42.029 --> 01:11:45.539
Joe Clark was found guilty of first-degree murder in the
1438
01:11:45.579 --> 01:11:48.359
death of Chris Steiner, and he was given an additional
1439
01:11:48.399 --> 01:11:53.649
life sentence. And Chris's family... was so incredibly grateful to
1440
01:11:53.729 --> 01:11:56.970
Thad for bringing some semblance of closure and justice to
1441
01:11:56.989 --> 01:12:00.270
their boy. Because they likely would have spent the rest
1442
01:12:00.310 --> 01:12:03.010
of their life trying to figure out exactly what happened
1443
01:12:03.029 --> 01:12:06.619
to Chris. And now they could just focus on rebuilding
1444
01:12:06.779 --> 01:12:09.020
to the extent that that's possible after losing a child.
1445
01:12:09.220 --> 01:12:09.420
Yeah.
1446
01:12:10.119 --> 01:12:12.960
To this day, Clark maintains that he has no memory
1447
01:12:13.000 --> 01:12:14.939
of what he did to Thad and claims that he
1448
01:12:14.960 --> 01:12:20.100
was innocent in the murder of Chris Steiner. He's made
1449
01:12:20.319 --> 01:12:23.439
repeated attempts to appeal his convictions, but each time they
1450
01:12:23.479 --> 01:12:26.329
were promptly and rightfully dismissed due to lack of merit.
1451
01:12:26.489 --> 01:12:26.689
Good.
1452
01:12:27.010 --> 01:12:29.689
And this is what I'm leaving off on. When asked
1453
01:12:29.770 --> 01:12:35.550
how he survived that horrendous ordeal, 43 hours of unrelenting
1454
01:12:35.590 --> 01:12:39.789
torture and abuse at the hands of a sexual, sadistic psychopath,
1455
01:12:40.489 --> 01:12:43.760
Thad said, I survived because I wanted to be with
1456
01:12:43.800 --> 01:12:46.539
my family. I didn't want to leave my family, and
1457
01:12:46.579 --> 01:12:48.260
I know they wouldn't want to lose me.
1458
01:12:49.090 --> 01:12:52.090
Some will to live and bravery and courage and grit
1459
01:12:52.250 --> 01:12:54.270
and determination. What is he doing now?
1460
01:12:54.640 --> 01:12:55.560
He has a family now.
1461
01:12:55.579 --> 01:12:56.140
Yeah.
1462
01:12:56.840 --> 01:13:00.300
He is struggling financially, which is very sad for me
1463
01:13:00.319 --> 01:13:03.449
to have to report. Interestingly, he won an award of
1464
01:13:03.449 --> 01:13:08.829
$ 21 million against Joe Clark, but Joe has not a
1465
01:13:08.869 --> 01:13:12.029
pot to piss in. But the judge, I love this part,
1466
01:13:12.090 --> 01:13:15.640
but the judge acknowledged the possibility that Joe might potentially
1467
01:13:15.720 --> 01:13:18.619
profit from the notoriety of this case. And if he
1468
01:13:18.680 --> 01:13:22.399
ever did, the judge declared that any monetary gains would
1469
01:13:22.439 --> 01:13:23.239
go right to Thad.
1470
01:13:23.840 --> 01:13:25.640
Yeah, I mean, I'd like to help Thad.
1471
01:13:25.840 --> 01:13:27.000
There is a GoFundMe page.
1472
01:13:27.180 --> 01:13:27.439
Is there?
1473
01:13:27.500 --> 01:13:30.399
Yeah, a family friend of his set up a GoFundMe page.
1474
01:13:30.659 --> 01:13:31.319
What's his last name?
1475
01:13:31.750 --> 01:13:32.149
Phillips.
1476
01:13:32.750 --> 01:13:39.789
Thaddeus Phillips? Yes. T-H-A-D? I-U-S. I-U-S? Mm-hmm. That's Thaddeus.
1477
01:13:40.750 --> 01:13:42.489
They pronounce it Thaddeus, okay.
1478
01:13:43.050 --> 01:13:45.350
That's good. Thaddeus.
1479
01:13:45.399 --> 01:13:46.029
Etymology.
1480
01:13:46.260 --> 01:13:50.560
I'm sorry. Thaddeus Phillips. Go fund me. Google it.
1481
01:13:50.819 --> 01:13:51.260
Yeah.
1482
01:13:51.279 --> 01:13:53.119
Maybe Psychopedia can change this guy's life.
1483
01:13:53.359 --> 01:13:56.119
I would love if that happened. He is so deserving.
1484
01:13:56.140 --> 01:13:57.439
I am amazed.
1485
01:13:57.460 --> 01:14:00.079
You know what? Actually, we'll put the link in the.
1486
01:14:00.699 --> 01:14:02.720
Okay, yeah, great idea. I love that idea.
1487
01:14:02.739 --> 01:14:03.199
Click on it.
1488
01:14:03.720 --> 01:14:05.500
Yeah, so he has a family of his own, which
1489
01:14:05.560 --> 01:14:07.859
makes me happy to think about. I did find that
1490
01:14:07.920 --> 01:14:11.029
his mother has since passed away, but he does have
1491
01:14:11.229 --> 01:14:16.430
a bunch of siblings, actually. And he's just a pillar
1492
01:14:16.550 --> 01:14:20.010
of strength and resilience and fortitude. And as we say
1493
01:14:20.050 --> 01:14:23.399
when we come across these cases where the survivors just
1494
01:14:23.899 --> 01:14:28.199
show such immense strength, like Mary Vincent, Peyton Lutner in
1495
01:14:28.220 --> 01:14:32.630
the Slender Man case, especially when it's children like those examples,
1496
01:14:32.909 --> 01:14:34.069
it's astounding.
1497
01:14:34.090 --> 01:14:34.630
Yeah.
1498
01:14:34.810 --> 01:14:38.390
I feel like if I stubbed my toe as a child,
1499
01:14:39.149 --> 01:14:40.409
it was the end of the world.
1500
01:14:40.520 --> 01:14:41.340
You were bellyaching.
1501
01:14:41.460 --> 01:14:42.399
I was bellyaching.
1502
01:14:42.439 --> 01:14:45.300
Bellyaching hard. Right. Like Cash was at the beginning of
1503
01:14:45.319 --> 01:14:45.659
the episode.
1504
01:14:45.779 --> 01:14:48.859
Oh, baby. I haven't heard any tummy grumbling since, so
1505
01:14:48.899 --> 01:14:49.609
maybe it's a.
1506
01:14:49.739 --> 01:14:50.520
He got embarrassed.
1507
01:14:50.579 --> 01:14:51.859
Working its way. Yeah.
1508
01:14:52.199 --> 01:14:52.600
Oh, boy.
1509
01:14:52.779 --> 01:14:54.350
Where it needs to go, and I'm going to walk
1510
01:14:54.369 --> 01:14:55.109
him in your yard.
1511
01:14:55.130 --> 01:14:59.939
Oh, cool. Well, thanks. I hated this case. So much.
1512
01:15:00.340 --> 01:15:01.500
It made me feel a lot of things that I
1513
01:15:01.520 --> 01:15:03.779
was very uncomfortable with. Okay.
1514
01:15:03.979 --> 01:15:06.270
That's not a bad thing. That's, you know, feeling all
1515
01:15:06.289 --> 01:15:08.649
the feels. Process it. We can talk about it more
1516
01:15:08.789 --> 01:15:09.430
on Patreon.
1517
01:15:09.689 --> 01:15:16.069
Patreon.com slash psychopedia for your psychopedia unhinged episodes where we
1518
01:15:16.729 --> 01:15:17.300
get nuts.
1519
01:15:17.569 --> 01:15:18.239
Yeah.
1520
01:15:18.300 --> 01:15:19.739
Unhinge ourselves.
1521
01:15:19.840 --> 01:15:21.520
Oh man, I can't wait to see you guys on there.
1522
01:15:21.760 --> 01:15:25.760
Yeah. So thanks for listening. Rate, review, subscribe and share
1523
01:15:25.779 --> 01:15:27.220
with a friend and we'll see you next week.
1524
01:15:27.300 --> 01:15:27.840
Bye everyone.