Carly Whiteside Full EP 4_Audio Only
Carly Whiteside: Welcome to Probate Problems and Practical Solutions.
Kevin Rosenquist: Hello and welcome back to Probate Problems and Practical Solutions with Carly Whiteside. Carly is founder of Copper Ren Law, which she started in 2023 as the first woman to solely own an ABS law firm in the US bringing a client first mindset to complex program probate guardianship and trust administration cases across Arizona. I'm Kevin Rosenquist, and in today's episode, we're looking at how to avoid probate litigation and how the right team can make all the difference. Carly, welcome back.
Carly Whiteside: Hi. How are you today?
Kevin Rosenquist: I'm doing good. How are you?
Carly Whiteside: Pretty good. Hanging in there.
Kevin Rosenquist: All right, well, I'm glad to hear it. Well, let's get into it. From your experience in litigation, what are the most common causes of probate lawsuit?
Carly Whiteside: The most common cause of probate lawsuits is going to be lack of information, lack of disclosure. And when we don't get information, maybe somebody has said, there is a will, but we don't have a copy of the will. Maybe somebody has said, I'm in charge, but we don't have a copy of the trust. That's when everybody's imaginations kind of start to run away with them, because then we start imagining, well, what's in there? What did mom and dad put in there? What did sibling put in there? Am I in it? Am I not? And so usually a lot of the times we can actually avoid litigation when we get the information and just say, look, we need the document. Just give us a document. We can look at it and go from there. And so a lot of the times that is what causes the litigation issues is because nobody knows. And so you have to involve the court to force the disclosure. So if we can write a, you know, basically a demand letter, a formal letter that says, hey, under the law, you have to disclose this. This is an optional. You know, you can't hold it. You can't hold it here. I need you to send it out to the people entitled to it. A lot of the times once they do that, we can kind of keep the court out of it and continue on and just sort of kind of monitor rather than going through the litigation process.
Kevin Rosenquist: Are there things that families can do while someone's alive to reduce at least, you know, the chances of conflict later?
Carly Whiteside: Yes and no. I, I actually, I know this is going to seem very counterintuitive. but when people do have, you know, trusts and wills, they ask me, do I send a copy to my kids. That way everybody knows, and we get in front of it. And my answer is no. And the reason I say that is if you make a change now you've got different copies floating around. So say you have an issue with somebody in your will. Say, you know, we'll just use kids as an example. Say you, you know, a third, a third, a third. And then one of the siblings, let's say that they go to prison, they did something and they go to prison and they're never getting out. And you decide, you know, what, what they did, I don't want them inheriting from me. I'm just going to give it to my two. But you've already sent out a copy. Well, now they've got a copy that says they're entitled. And now they're going to say, well, my other siblings got in there and they convinced mom and dad to disinherit me, and they didn't want that. So now you've created confusion when you were trying to create clarity. And so, like I said, it does seem counterintuitive.
Kevin Rosenquist: It does.
Carly Whiteside: But the person that you nominate in your will or trust, when you have it done, you want to put it in a safe place, and just tell that person, you're my trustee or you're my personal representative. My m. Will or trust is on this bookshelf in the office. When the time comes, go grab the book off the shelf and do the things you're kind of trusting them to do the right thing, which you don't have control over. People are going to do what they're going to do. So as long as you did the planning, that's about all you can do. And just your part where it is. And I will say, a lot of people hear a safe place and they think of putting it in a safe. They think of putting it in a safety deposit box. That's actually a bad idea because in order to get into a safety deposit box in Arizona, you need a specific court order. So then we've created the issue of, well, we know there's a will or trust, but it's in a box. We don't actually know who's appointed, but in order to get the order to get in there, we need somebody appointed. So now we're in this weird kind of chicken egg situation. And then when it's in a safe, who has authority to drill the safe? And a lot of the times it's whatever sibling or person gets there first. And if they open that up and it's not maybe, say, beneficial to them, oh, no, I didn't find a will. I Didn't find a trust. I don't know what you're talking about. Mom and dad didn't have anything. Sibley didn't have anything. So that creates another issue. Wow. So we want to make sure that the person that you are trusting in this position, that you feel like they are trustworthy and they will do the right thing. Now, what happens after that? Unfortunately, it, you know, we won't know how they're truly going to behave until everything happens. So that's, You can do the best you can. So as long as you.
00:05:00
Carly Whiteside: I tell people, either do a lot of planning or don't do any planning. I see issues when we're in the in between.
Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah.
Carly Whiteside: So get your trust done professionally. Please do not use a document preparer. I know they are a lot cheaper. They are not attorneys. Most of my litigation with trusts are doc prepper trusts and wills. Because they're wrong. doc preppers cannot give you legal advice. So if you ask them, should I put this in my will or trust? They go, what do you want to do? An attorney will say, absolutely not. Are you trying to create a fight? We're not doing that. So please do that or do nothing and let the Arizona laws take over. Because when we have handwritten things and kind of the in between, again, that's where we see issues. Really?
Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah. Once probate begins, are there certain actions that you see people. People take that tend to escalate things, probably unnecessarily?
Carly Whiteside: Yes. once probate begins, there's a couple deadlines that are really important in the beginning. So the first deadline that I think causes a lot of issues is when somebody is appointed by the court within 90 days of their appointment, they are required to send out an inventory of the estate to all of the beneficiaries. So, you know, is there a house in there? Is there a car? Is there a loan on the house still? Are there bank accounts? This basically kind of gives somebody a picture of what's actually in the estate. What does the estate consist of? Is it $5? Is it $5 million? And I see a lot of issues when that date comes and goes and nothing goes out and it's just radio silence and there's no communication. Again, communication is paramount. If you tell people, look, I know the inventory was due within 90 days. I am having trouble with this investment account or this stock account. I don't know what's in it. They won't give me information. I'm dealing with their legal department. So I put on the inventory unknown at this time. And then you put a little footnote that says, we're dealing with the legal department. When we get information, we'll send an updated inventory out. So I think a lot of people are maybe like, if I don't have any information, it's just better not to share. It's actually worse. You need to just say you don't know and what you're running into. Because a lot of my clients, they have all their paperwork, everything's in order. But the larger banks and financial institutions and mortgage companies, they make it so tedious and difficult to update their files and basically give the client the authority to talk to them because they're stepping into somebody's shoes who's passed away that they get stonewalled and I have to get on the phone and be my nice, super pleasant, not self and basically tell them like, we're not doing this, get it together. And so that can cause delays. The second thing is, after we have our 120 day creditor period, no money goes out during this time because this is a time for us to see what liabilities are against the estate. What are the debts? A lot of people will come to me and say, mom and dad didn't have debt, they paid cash for everything. Everything's been paid off for years. And then we do the creditor period. And lo and behold, we've got, you know, we've got a, a consumer credit card, we've got a subscription nobody knew about. You know, parents, siblings don't necessarily tell everybody every little thing they do, and they make it seem like everything's fine. and one specific case that I had, years ago, everybody said, nope, everything's great. Well, unfortunately, the decedent had not paid their taxes in seven years. So there was a six figure IRS tax bill that wiped the estate completely out. There was no money left for anybody. And so nobody knew. How could you know? Right? And so I caution people like, I hear you and you're probably right. I hope you're right. But we need to kind of go through the steps and not rush it. And I think a lot of people, when they get in this position, they want to hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry, get it paid out, get it done, get it done, close it. And we can do it quickly. But we do have to move through the process appropriately. After the creditor period is done, we will do an accounting, which is basically where we show every dollar that went out to us, the tax preparer, you know, paying taxes ahead of time, any creditors, and that does come with source Documents. So that will include bank statements, credit card statements, creditor claims. So it's not a. Take my word for it, it's a here's the document, and then here's the supporting material. And that's usually the other issue we have, is people will send out maybe an Excel sheet, and it's like, well, these numbers look great, but for all I know, you made them up. And so that caused another problem. Yeah.
Kevin Rosenquist: Are there other options, like mediation, alternative dispute resolutions that you can use in Arizona probate cases?
Carly Whiteside: Absolutely. those come basically into being once we've already started litigation and we're going down that path. So those are available to us
00:10:00
Carly Whiteside: after we've already said, hey, we're fighting about something. And the court issues something called a joint scheduling order. And what that is is basically a outline for the litigation from day one to trial. you don't have to go through the whole scheduling order. You can settle at any moment. But the reason the court does this is so you're not back in every two months going, well, we hit our two deadlines, but we're still not in agreement. So we need our next set of dates. And I think a lot of clients, when they see. Because litigation in Arizona usually is 18 to 24 months, so when they see dates that are 2026, 2027, they panic and. And go, I'm going to be doing this for the. And it's like, no, no, no. The court just wants it calendared. See, we don't have to keep coming back and taking time. Okay, anytime we can pause it, we can tell the court, hey, we're going to go to mediation. Can we pause this while we do this? We think we're going to settle. So that's where we can kind of come in and let the court know what we're doing. The court is overseeing it, but they also understand that these are people and. And that we can say, hey, I think we have a good shot at this. the court will recommend sometimes that we go to adr, alternative, dispute resolution. They'll order it, or they'll say, no, I want you to do a settlement conference or private mediation. It just kind of depends on the case. and they'll usually give a deadline for when that needs to happen. So we don't, again, play the game of, well, we're trying to get it scheduled, but we have no deadline in mind. And so everybody's like, well, I'm not available. I can't do it, whatever. So those are in there. I will tell You. In the five years I've been doing this, four and a half. I have only seen three cases actually go to trial. Oh. all ones got settled. So usually when the attorney bills start climbing and. And everything, everybody kind of looks around and goes, maybe this wasn't so worth it. I'd rather, you know, maybe take 10 grand less, but I'm not going to spend 30 grand with the attorney, so I'm actually coming out on top. And that's also part of our job to remind Cl clients it's not just the money you're chasing, it's the money you're spending to chase the money.
Kevin Rosenquist: Right.
Carly Whiteside: Because you don't want to spend 50 grand to get 20. That's silly. And so that's part of the process as well.
Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah. That's a good thing for people to keep in mind. I mean, I. I think sometimes you can. You can get lost in that. Or do people sometimes try to do this on their own without an attorney?
Carly Whiteside: They do. those. Those files are frustrating, especially when our clients represented and the other side is not. Because now we're put in a situation where we're trying to move this along and the other side doesn't really understand what they're required to do.
Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah, they don't understand the process. Yeah, they don't.
Carly Whiteside: And so we call them and say, hey, we have to have a meet and confer. Like, you have to talk to Elizabeth to talk about this thing. We need to file jointly. This joint scheduling order that I mentioned. It also comes with a joint report that basically tells the court, here's our position, here's their position. Kind of sets the baseline, like, what's the actual problem? And a lot of them are like, I don't have to talk to you. I don't want to. And they'll refuse. And so we get into this weird place where we're trying to move the matter forward, but we get stuck because they're not participating like they're supposed to, or they don't send us the disclosure they're supposed to by this day and not really understanding. So I will say our files that are the most expensive are when we have a represented side and an unrepresented side. Those are the ones you would think it would be when you're both represented. It's not. It's actually cheaper because the other attorney knows what they're supposed to do.
Kevin Rosenquist: You know, what they're doing.
Carly Whiteside: I'm, And get them to come along and hit deadlines and, you know, they're not going to risk their bar license for their clients shenanigans. Whereas parties that are unrepresented will file things and handwrite things that you're like, ah, this is a journal entry. I don't know what we're doing here, but we have to respond. And so it just kind of muddies the waters.
Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah, I'd say. So do you have like, when people are, are saying they don't, they don't have to talk to you, or they're missing deadlines and all that, do you have recourse then with the court to go in and say, hey, you need to force this person to do this?
Carly Whiteside: We do. it's basically like a motion to compel where we say, we've tried to communicate, you know, we've emailed, we've, we've made attempts to schedule calls, we've sent letters. They're ignoring us. They're, you know, or we'll attach their responses. I've gotten some pretty colorful responses, throughout the years from people in email, text to the firm, voicemails. And so we kind of just go in and tell the court, hey, we've been working on this our hand. They're not, they're not doing the thing they need to do. And then the court can step in and basically kind of educate them. Like, you know, either figure it out and do what you need to do, or you need to call somebody to help advise you. because you're not,
00:15:00
Carly Whiteside: you still have to move forward. You say again, like we talked about, the I don't know, I'm ignorant excuse only works for so much to a point where it's like, well, now you're just doing it to be obstinate. You don't actually want to move anything. You just want to hold this whole process up. And I see that the most when this person is usually living in the estate, or trust property. And so they're, they are, they have no interest in it. They're just dragging it out because they don't want to move.
Kevin Rosenquist: They're doing good, they're, they're living the sweet life.
Carly Whiteside: Exactly. But there are mechanisms we can, we can tap into to get the process jump started and moving along again.
Kevin Rosenquist: When you're counseling your clients, how do you help them decide what's worth fighting for and what's worth settling?
Carly Whiteside: Well, we kind of give them their options. So Elizabeth will have a conversation with them of here's. And she will be very clear of here's what I can accomplish with the Legal system. These are things I cannot accomplish. The biggest problem we have is personal property. Yeah.
Kevin Rosenquist: The emotional stuff.
Carly Whiteside: Emotional stuff. So mom and Dad's, you know, sewing machine. I was supposed to get that. And it's like, maybe this person already sold it. Well, what are we going to do about it? Unfortunately, there's not much we can do because you're going to spend 10, 20, 30 grand on an 800 item. And so, we kind of, again, have to put it in terms of time and monetary value while still acknowledging the sentimental value and saying, I'm really sorry this happened. I'm sorry this person did this. But unfortunately, the legal system is not going to step in in the way you hope. And so the best way that we serve our clients is, unfortunately, by telling them these hard truths that maybe they don't want to hear. That's part of our job, you know, Like Elizabeth's, title is Counselor at Law. Counseling means telling you things you necessarily don't maybe want to hear. It's just. It is and it isn't. So that's the way that we get in front of those is just by basically telling people like you, I'm really sorry, but we gotta. We're not doing this. Like, we will refuse. We. We won't let people go down those roads and. And spend that money. It's not appropriate.
Kevin Rosenquist: Do you feel like it's. People come in kind of hot, emotional in the beginning, and then after you're able to kind of talk to them, tell them, tell them some of these hard truths and all that, that they kind of calm down and. And take a more realistic approach and a less emotional one.
Carly Whiteside: Some of them, Some of them never get it. Yeah, m. And I have had clients tell me it's not about the money, it's the principal. I will spend 50 for 20. But at that point, you are fully informed. And so you go, okay, you're full. You. You understand what you're doing. We're not here to, you know, babysit you and. And tell you what's best for you. We want you to have the information, and then you make the choice. So I have had clients tell me, I will spend every penny because it's worth it to me for the principal. And we say, as long as you understand that's what it is.
Kevin Rosenquist: Man, it's got to be tough for you. I mean, because you're like, oh, my God, this person is just making a mistake. But, what can you do? You're only there to counsel. You can't make the decision for them.
Carly Whiteside: The way that I basically reconcile that. Because you're right, it is hard. It is hard because for me, it's not my family. I'm not emotional. I'm. I'm. I'm completely detached, which is to your advantage, because we're doing a job. But for me, I reconcile it in the fact that our firm is completely honest and sometimes brutally honest, black and white. And so I go, well, if they're gonna do it, at least it's with us and not a firm that's telling them, you have a chance. Absolutely, you have a chance. Give me more money. Give me more money. But what they're not saying is, you have a 1% chance. And so that's how I reconcile it is at least with me, their bill will be as reasonable as possible. And they do know what they're getting into.
Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah, they're at least, like you said, they're informed. It's the best you can do. All right, well, thanks for joining us today on probate problems and practical solutions. If you are looking to avoid litigation and navigate probate with confidence, visit copperrenlaw.com and as always, please be sure to, subscribe. Watch out wherever you're listening. Leave us a review. We definitely appreciate it. Carly, always great chatting with you. Thanks so much for your time.
Carly Whiteside: Thank you. Thanks for watching. Be sure to hit that like and subscribe button and leave us a review in the comments.
00:19:35
Carly Whiteside: Welcome to Probate Problems and Practical Solutions.
Kevin Rosenquist: Hello and welcome back to Probate Problems and Practical Solutions with Carly Whiteside. Carly is founder of Copper Ren Law, which she started in 2023 as the first woman to solely own an ABS law firm in the US bringing a client first mindset to complex program probate guardianship and trust administration cases across Arizona. I'm Kevin Rosenquist, and in today's episode, we're looking at how to avoid probate litigation and how the right team can make all the difference. Carly, welcome back.
Carly Whiteside: Hi. How are you today?
Kevin Rosenquist: I'm doing good. How are you?
Carly Whiteside: Pretty good. Hanging in there.
Kevin Rosenquist: All right, well, I'm glad to hear it. Well, let's get into it. From your experience in litigation, what are the most common causes of probate lawsuit?
Carly Whiteside: The most common cause of probate lawsuits is going to be lack of information, lack of disclosure. And when we don't get information, maybe somebody has said, there is a will, but we don't have a copy of the will. Maybe somebody has said, I'm in charge, but we don't have a copy of the trust. That's when everybody's imaginations kind of start to run away with them, because then we start imagining, well, what's in there? What did mom and dad put in there? What did sibling put in there? Am I in it? Am I not? And so usually a lot of the times we can actually avoid litigation when we get the information and just say, look, we need the document. Just give us a document. We can look at it and go from there. And so a lot of the times that is what causes the litigation issues is because nobody knows. And so you have to involve the court to force the disclosure. So if we can write a, you know, basically a demand letter, a formal letter that says, hey, under the law, you have to disclose this. This is an optional. You know, you can't hold it. You can't hold it here. I need you to send it out to the people entitled to it. A lot of the times once they do that, we can kind of keep the court out of it and continue on and just sort of kind of monitor rather than going through the litigation process.
Kevin Rosenquist: Are there things that families can do while someone's alive to reduce at least, you know, the chances of conflict later?
Carly Whiteside: Yes and no. I, I actually, I know this is going to seem very counterintuitive. but when people do have, you know, trusts and wills, they ask me, do I send a copy to my kids. That way everybody knows, and we get in front of it. And my answer is no. And the reason I say that is if you make a change now you've got different copies floating around. So say you have an issue with somebody in your will. Say, you know, we'll just use kids as an example. Say you, you know, a third, a third, a third. And then one of the siblings, let's say that they go to prison, they did something and they go to prison and they're never getting out. And you decide, you know, what, what they did, I don't want them inheriting from me. I'm just going to give it to my two. But you've already sent out a copy. Well, now they've got a copy that says they're entitled. And now they're going to say, well, my other siblings got in there and they convinced mom and dad to disinherit me, and they didn't want that. So now you've created confusion when you were trying to create clarity. And so, like I said, it does seem counterintuitive.
Kevin Rosenquist: It does.
Carly Whiteside: But the person that you nominate in your will or trust, when you have it done, you want to put it in a safe place, and just tell that person, you're my trustee or you're my personal representative. My m. Will or trust is on this bookshelf in the office. When the time comes, go grab the book off the shelf and do the things you're kind of trusting them to do the right thing, which you don't have control over. People are going to do what they're going to do. So as long as you did the planning, that's about all you can do. And just your part where it is. And I will say, a lot of people hear a safe place and they think of putting it in a safe. They think of putting it in a safety deposit box. That's actually a bad idea because in order to get into a safety deposit box in Arizona, you need a specific court order. So then we've created the issue of, well, we know there's a will or trust, but it's in a box. We don't actually know who's appointed, but in order to get the order to get in there, we need somebody appointed. So now we're in this weird kind of chicken egg situation. And then when it's in a safe, who has authority to drill the safe? And a lot of the times it's whatever sibling or person gets there first. And if they open that up and it's not maybe, say, beneficial to them, oh, no, I didn't find a will. I Didn't find a trust. I don't know what you're talking about. Mom and dad didn't have anything. Sibley didn't have anything. So that creates another issue. Wow. So we want to make sure that the person that you are trusting in this position, that you feel like they are trustworthy and they will do the right thing. Now, what happens after that? Unfortunately, it, you know, we won't know how they're truly going to behave until everything happens. So that's, You can do the best you can. So as long as you.
00:05:00
Carly Whiteside: I tell people, either do a lot of planning or don't do any planning. I see issues when we're in the in between.
Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah.
Carly Whiteside: So get your trust done professionally. Please do not use a document preparer. I know they are a lot cheaper. They are not attorneys. Most of my litigation with trusts are doc prepper trusts and wills. Because they're wrong. doc preppers cannot give you legal advice. So if you ask them, should I put this in my will or trust? They go, what do you want to do? An attorney will say, absolutely not. Are you trying to create a fight? We're not doing that. So please do that or do nothing and let the Arizona laws take over. Because when we have handwritten things and kind of the in between, again, that's where we see issues. Really?
Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah. Once probate begins, are there certain actions that you see people. People take that tend to escalate things, probably unnecessarily?
Carly Whiteside: Yes. once probate begins, there's a couple deadlines that are really important in the beginning. So the first deadline that I think causes a lot of issues is when somebody is appointed by the court within 90 days of their appointment, they are required to send out an inventory of the estate to all of the beneficiaries. So, you know, is there a house in there? Is there a car? Is there a loan on the house still? Are there bank accounts? This basically kind of gives somebody a picture of what's actually in the estate. What does the estate consist of? Is it $5? Is it $5 million? And I see a lot of issues when that date comes and goes and nothing goes out and it's just radio silence and there's no communication. Again, communication is paramount. If you tell people, look, I know the inventory was due within 90 days. I am having trouble with this investment account or this stock account. I don't know what's in it. They won't give me information. I'm dealing with their legal department. So I put on the inventory unknown at this time. And then you put a little footnote that says, we're dealing with the legal department. When we get information, we'll send an updated inventory out. So I think a lot of people are maybe like, if I don't have any information, it's just better not to share. It's actually worse. You need to just say you don't know and what you're running into. Because a lot of my clients, they have all their paperwork, everything's in order. But the larger banks and financial institutions and mortgage companies, they make it so tedious and difficult to update their files and basically give the client the authority to talk to them because they're stepping into somebody's shoes who's passed away that they get stonewalled and I have to get on the phone and be my nice, super pleasant, not self and basically tell them like, we're not doing this, get it together. And so that can cause delays. The second thing is, after we have our 120 day creditor period, no money goes out during this time because this is a time for us to see what liabilities are against the estate. What are the debts? A lot of people will come to me and say, mom and dad didn't have debt, they paid cash for everything. Everything's been paid off for years. And then we do the creditor period. And lo and behold, we've got, you know, we've got a, a consumer credit card, we've got a subscription nobody knew about. You know, parents, siblings don't necessarily tell everybody every little thing they do, and they make it seem like everything's fine. and one specific case that I had, years ago, everybody said, nope, everything's great. Well, unfortunately, the decedent had not paid their taxes in seven years. So there was a six figure IRS tax bill that wiped the estate completely out. There was no money left for anybody. And so nobody knew. How could you know? Right? And so I caution people like, I hear you and you're probably right. I hope you're right. But we need to kind of go through the steps and not rush it. And I think a lot of people, when they get in this position, they want to hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry, get it paid out, get it done, get it done, close it. And we can do it quickly. But we do have to move through the process appropriately. After the creditor period is done, we will do an accounting, which is basically where we show every dollar that went out to us, the tax preparer, you know, paying taxes ahead of time, any creditors, and that does come with source Documents. So that will include bank statements, credit card statements, creditor claims. So it's not a. Take my word for it, it's a here's the document, and then here's the supporting material. And that's usually the other issue we have, is people will send out maybe an Excel sheet, and it's like, well, these numbers look great, but for all I know, you made them up. And so that caused another problem. Yeah.
Kevin Rosenquist: Are there other options, like mediation, alternative dispute resolutions that you can use in Arizona probate cases?
Carly Whiteside: Absolutely. those come basically into being once we've already started litigation and we're going down that path. So those are available to us
00:10:00
Carly Whiteside: after we've already said, hey, we're fighting about something. And the court issues something called a joint scheduling order. And what that is is basically a outline for the litigation from day one to trial. you don't have to go through the whole scheduling order. You can settle at any moment. But the reason the court does this is so you're not back in every two months going, well, we hit our two deadlines, but we're still not in agreement. So we need our next set of dates. And I think a lot of clients, when they see. Because litigation in Arizona usually is 18 to 24 months, so when they see dates that are 2026, 2027, they panic and. And go, I'm going to be doing this for the. And it's like, no, no, no. The court just wants it calendared. See, we don't have to keep coming back and taking time. Okay, anytime we can pause it, we can tell the court, hey, we're going to go to mediation. Can we pause this while we do this? We think we're going to settle. So that's where we can kind of come in and let the court know what we're doing. The court is overseeing it, but they also understand that these are people and. And that we can say, hey, I think we have a good shot at this. the court will recommend sometimes that we go to adr, alternative, dispute resolution. They'll order it, or they'll say, no, I want you to do a settlement conference or private mediation. It just kind of depends on the case. and they'll usually give a deadline for when that needs to happen. So we don't, again, play the game of, well, we're trying to get it scheduled, but we have no deadline in mind. And so everybody's like, well, I'm not available. I can't do it, whatever. So those are in there. I will tell You. In the five years I've been doing this, four and a half. I have only seen three cases actually go to trial. Oh. all ones got settled. So usually when the attorney bills start climbing and. And everything, everybody kind of looks around and goes, maybe this wasn't so worth it. I'd rather, you know, maybe take 10 grand less, but I'm not going to spend 30 grand with the attorney, so I'm actually coming out on top. And that's also part of our job to remind Cl clients it's not just the money you're chasing, it's the money you're spending to chase the money.
Kevin Rosenquist: Right.
Carly Whiteside: Because you don't want to spend 50 grand to get 20. That's silly. And so that's part of the process as well.
Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah. That's a good thing for people to keep in mind. I mean, I. I think sometimes you can. You can get lost in that. Or do people sometimes try to do this on their own without an attorney?
Carly Whiteside: They do. those. Those files are frustrating, especially when our clients represented and the other side is not. Because now we're put in a situation where we're trying to move this along and the other side doesn't really understand what they're required to do.
Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah, they don't understand the process. Yeah, they don't.
Carly Whiteside: And so we call them and say, hey, we have to have a meet and confer. Like, you have to talk to Elizabeth to talk about this thing. We need to file jointly. This joint scheduling order that I mentioned. It also comes with a joint report that basically tells the court, here's our position, here's their position. Kind of sets the baseline, like, what's the actual problem? And a lot of them are like, I don't have to talk to you. I don't want to. And they'll refuse. And so we get into this weird place where we're trying to move the matter forward, but we get stuck because they're not participating like they're supposed to, or they don't send us the disclosure they're supposed to by this day and not really understanding. So I will say our files that are the most expensive are when we have a represented side and an unrepresented side. Those are the ones you would think it would be when you're both represented. It's not. It's actually cheaper because the other attorney knows what they're supposed to do.
Kevin Rosenquist: You know, what they're doing.
Carly Whiteside: I'm, And get them to come along and hit deadlines and, you know, they're not going to risk their bar license for their clients shenanigans. Whereas parties that are unrepresented will file things and handwrite things that you're like, ah, this is a journal entry. I don't know what we're doing here, but we have to respond. And so it just kind of muddies the waters.
Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah, I'd say. So do you have like, when people are, are saying they don't, they don't have to talk to you, or they're missing deadlines and all that, do you have recourse then with the court to go in and say, hey, you need to force this person to do this?
Carly Whiteside: We do. it's basically like a motion to compel where we say, we've tried to communicate, you know, we've emailed, we've, we've made attempts to schedule calls, we've sent letters. They're ignoring us. They're, you know, or we'll attach their responses. I've gotten some pretty colorful responses, throughout the years from people in email, text to the firm, voicemails. And so we kind of just go in and tell the court, hey, we've been working on this our hand. They're not, they're not doing the thing they need to do. And then the court can step in and basically kind of educate them. Like, you know, either figure it out and do what you need to do, or you need to call somebody to help advise you. because you're not,
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Carly Whiteside: you still have to move forward. You say again, like we talked about, the I don't know, I'm ignorant excuse only works for so much to a point where it's like, well, now you're just doing it to be obstinate. You don't actually want to move anything. You just want to hold this whole process up. And I see that the most when this person is usually living in the estate, or trust property. And so they're, they are, they have no interest in it. They're just dragging it out because they don't want to move.
Kevin Rosenquist: They're doing good, they're, they're living the sweet life.
Carly Whiteside: Exactly. But there are mechanisms we can, we can tap into to get the process jump started and moving along again.
Kevin Rosenquist: When you're counseling your clients, how do you help them decide what's worth fighting for and what's worth settling?
Carly Whiteside: Well, we kind of give them their options. So Elizabeth will have a conversation with them of here's. And she will be very clear of here's what I can accomplish with the Legal system. These are things I cannot accomplish. The biggest problem we have is personal property. Yeah.
Kevin Rosenquist: The emotional stuff.
Carly Whiteside: Emotional stuff. So mom and Dad's, you know, sewing machine. I was supposed to get that. And it's like, maybe this person already sold it. Well, what are we going to do about it? Unfortunately, there's not much we can do because you're going to spend 10, 20, 30 grand on an 800 item. And so, we kind of, again, have to put it in terms of time and monetary value while still acknowledging the sentimental value and saying, I'm really sorry this happened. I'm sorry this person did this. But unfortunately, the legal system is not going to step in in the way you hope. And so the best way that we serve our clients is, unfortunately, by telling them these hard truths that maybe they don't want to hear. That's part of our job, you know, Like Elizabeth's, title is Counselor at Law. Counseling means telling you things you necessarily don't maybe want to hear. It's just. It is and it isn't. So that's the way that we get in front of those is just by basically telling people like you, I'm really sorry, but we gotta. We're not doing this. Like, we will refuse. We. We won't let people go down those roads and. And spend that money. It's not appropriate.
Kevin Rosenquist: Do you feel like it's. People come in kind of hot, emotional in the beginning, and then after you're able to kind of talk to them, tell them, tell them some of these hard truths and all that, that they kind of calm down and. And take a more realistic approach and a less emotional one.
Carly Whiteside: Some of them, Some of them never get it. Yeah, m. And I have had clients tell me it's not about the money, it's the principal. I will spend 50 for 20. But at that point, you are fully informed. And so you go, okay, you're full. You. You understand what you're doing. We're not here to, you know, babysit you and. And tell you what's best for you. We want you to have the information, and then you make the choice. So I have had clients tell me, I will spend every penny because it's worth it to me for the principal. And we say, as long as you understand that's what it is.
Kevin Rosenquist: Man, it's got to be tough for you. I mean, because you're like, oh, my God, this person is just making a mistake. But, what can you do? You're only there to counsel. You can't make the decision for them.
Carly Whiteside: The way that I basically reconcile that. Because you're right, it is hard. It is hard because for me, it's not my family. I'm not emotional. I'm. I'm. I'm completely detached, which is to your advantage, because we're doing a job. But for me, I reconcile it in the fact that our firm is completely honest and sometimes brutally honest, black and white. And so I go, well, if they're gonna do it, at least it's with us and not a firm that's telling them, you have a chance. Absolutely, you have a chance. Give me more money. Give me more money. But what they're not saying is, you have a 1% chance. And so that's how I reconcile it is at least with me, their bill will be as reasonable as possible. And they do know what they're getting into.
Kevin Rosenquist: Yeah, they're at least, like you said, they're informed. It's the best you can do. All right, well, thanks for joining us today on probate problems and practical solutions. If you are looking to avoid litigation and navigate probate with confidence, visit copperrenlaw.com and as always, please be sure to, subscribe. Watch out wherever you're listening. Leave us a review. We definitely appreciate it. Carly, always great chatting with you. Thanks so much for your time.
Carly Whiteside: Thank you. Thanks for watching. Be sure to hit that like and subscribe button and leave us a review in the comments.
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