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Welcome to PodCash, the portable professional development podcast from Cash Alumni.
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Cash Alumni is the fastest growing association of professionals in care,
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health and education, and we're happy to have you here.
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This is where you'll hear from specialists and experts from across our network.
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Here's what's coming up. There's near to 2000 videos on the platform.
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So there was the period of obviously creating all all those videos and making
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it and so we've been in schools for the last 18 months or so and when we speak
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to schools and show them they absolutely can see what we're trying to achieve
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and how it would be effective in their school.
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Let's jump in to this week's episode. Thank you for having me on this podcast
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really excited about this conversation we're about to have.
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I'm Bethan Harding and I've I've got a background in education,
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always worked in education, still working in education and always will.
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A very quick summary. I started as a teacher in Swindon and quickly became the
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maths leader and a lead maths teacher for the county.
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Then moved to America for a year and worked in a school in America just for
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experience and opportunity to travel and see education in another country.
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And then returned to Cardiff, which is my hometown, and worked in a large inner
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city school, the very high disadvantage.
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But it was a very well-known school, very forward thinking.
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So I became the maths leader, then the English lead, safeguarding lead, assistant head, etc.
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And then became head teacher of that school, Hibb Thompson Primary School in
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Cardiff. And we had a very successful inspection there.
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And so became kind of the Welsh version of a teaching school,
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if you like. And we wrote and delivered a lot of CPD for teachers and headteachers across the region.
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Most days, we had people visiting our school, watching lessons,
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being trained and so on. So that was a really exciting opportunity.
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And I then became a strategic lead for the Central South Consortium.
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And we set up a lot of teaching hubs, improvement hubs, they were called, across the region.
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And we were a pioneer school and so on. So I had great opportunities there to
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work with other leaders.
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And then in 2016, I got married to somebody from the northeast of England.
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So I moved to the northeast of England and became head of an all-through school,
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which is a 3-19 school in Blyth in Northumberland. And...
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Then two years ago, I finished, not two years ago, probably about 18 months
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ago now, I finished being a head teacher and joined my husband and we set up Harden Education.
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Harden Education does two things. It provides leadership training and coaching
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and support for school leaders and head teachers.
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But it also, we provide a number curriculum and learning platform called Winning with Numbers.
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And that is a primary maths
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curriculum for the number part of the curriculum and a learning platform which
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includes a whole suite of resources for schools and parents and children to
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ensure that children are fluent and confident with number ideally by the age
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of 10 so that's kind of what our mission is through winning with numbers.
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Wow well I've got loads of questions because there were loads of really interesting
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things that you have said in there.
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The first First thing I wanted to ask, because I didn't know this already,
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was three to 19. What's that like? Three to 19?
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Like, that sounds like a massive age range. How do you look after the needs
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of and cater to such a massive age range?
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I skipped over that part because I was aware of time. But yeah,
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it was a great professional opportunity for me as well, being the head of a
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primary school, then moving to a school which was all through.
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I was a co-principal with somebody who was responsible for secondary and I was
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responsible for primary.
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But we very much worked together. We led the school as one, if you like.
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And we held lots of national conferences because, like you said, how does that work?
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There's a range of all through schools across the country. And the feedback
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we got through running these conferences was that actually the primary school
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and the secondary school very much worked in isolation, in reality.
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And so we were very much wanted to explore
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how you make a 3
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to 19 school most effective what leadership
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structure should it have should the staff be working together and so on so it
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was a really great experience for me and for all the staff to work in the school
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for 3 to 19 because often primary schools say that secondary schools don't pick
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up the children from where they're
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at and the children take a dip in year seven, which is very common.
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And, you know, secondary schools might say about primary that we're not preparing
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them for that secondary curriculum.
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So having the opportunity to bring those staff together to make sure that the
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curriculum, the teaching, the transition was as seamless as possible was great.
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Because, yeah, it is well known that children do take a dip in year seven.
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And what we're all about in winning with numbers is that seamless curriculum so there isn't a dip.
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And the children feel that they're being taught by the same teacher,
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if you like, that the teachers know the children's background knowledge and start from that point.
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Whereas often in year seven, it's a difficulty that the children don't,
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the teachers don't know the children's background knowledge and therefore just
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starting from where the curriculum tells them to start in year seven.
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So, yeah, it was great to have those opportunities in CPD and more informally
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as well to get those teachers together to make sure that,
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number one, the curriculum is sequenced and that the teachers know that curriculum
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and also know the children.
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And so there's less negative effect during those transition periods.
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So tell us a little bit more about Winner With Numbers. How does that work?
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What is it? Obviously, being a headteacher and my husband who started the company
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has also got a headteacher background and he's a math specialist and was an
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offset inspector, isn't anymore.
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So, yeah, we've got a lot of backgrounds in education and there's a real frustration,
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particularly in math, and it was very evident after COVID that children aren't
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confident in the basic number.
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And therefore, that's when we get the negative mindset when it comes to maths,
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because children are put into difficult problem solving situations or given
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challenges and they haven't got that foundation and they haven't got that basic number knowledge.
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So then they get anxious or worried or, you know, because they can't answer
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the problem or they don't know how to apply their knowledge to the challenge
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because they haven't got it.
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So we have a real vision really to ensure that all children are fluent and confident
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with number and they're then able to apply that into the wider maths curriculum.
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And so we want them fluent and then obviously the confidence comes from that
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because we've all heard a lot about the negative mindset in maths,
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even the government talking about it. it.
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And so that's where we're at, really.
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And it's a bit like phonics for maths. So anyone knows primary education,
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they know about the importance of phonics, getting the children to understand
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and know the letter sounds in order to be able to apply that knowledge to the
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wider reading curriculum.
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It's the same with winning with numbers in maths. So we say winning with numbers
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is like phonics to maths, getting that solid foundation in order for it to apply. apply.
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So how we do that, we've written a curriculum which has got 300 wins,
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is what we call, but they're basically learning objectives.
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And those learning objectives, those wins are being put in a straight line curriculum.
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So it's easy for teachers and parents to follow that curriculum and deliver it to the children.
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Often our maths curriculums, we have strands and teachers just have to jump
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from one strand to the other.
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So we wanted to simplify that and put it in straight lines. We've got 300 wins,
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300 objectives in a straight line.
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And that curriculum took about six to eight months to actually write and put together.
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Again, schools haven't got the time or maybe the expertise in order to do that.
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So we've put that curriculum together.
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And then that curriculum is put onto a learning platform.
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And our learning platform, people often say, what's unique about your platform?
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Well, again, having a school background, we've ensured that there's a suite
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of resources on there for teachers, for parents and for children.
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So each of the 300 wins has a CPD video that is very short, and it basically
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tells the member of staff, this is what you're teaching, this is why you're
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teaching it, and this is how to teach it.
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Because there's lots of primary teachers who aren't confident in math.
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They might have not had a good experience themselves in math,
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totally understandable.
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And so rather than having one big inset day at the beginning of the year,
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we give a drip feed of CPD throughout the year.
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So for every lesson, the teachers, the teaching assistants have got a CPD video
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that kind of trains them at ongoing.
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And it's called Be the Expert videos because we want our staff to become more
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and more expert in teaching and maths because we know they might not have had
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the knowledge or the experience themselves.
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And then for each of the 300 wins, there's a Teach Me video and there's Goal
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videos. And those Teach Me videos and Goal videos teach the children, basically, that win.
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And the Goal videos model to the children how to answer those questions.
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And so the teachers can use that in class and the parents can use that at home.
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So worst case scenario, if you haven't got an app up there at all,
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the children can just press play and it'll teach them that win and it'll model
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to them how to answer the questions.
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But ideally, you've got a member of staff or a parent sitting with the child
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and using in that video, kind of team teaching, if you like,
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with that video, pressing pause and having conversations around it and whatnot.
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And then on the platform, the children can answer questions after watching the
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goal videos and having it muddled to them.
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They can answer questions either on their whiteboards, if schools haven't got
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devices, or they can answer questions straight into a device.
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So they can, some schools use it on just the main class board and then ask children
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to answer the questions at home on their devices.
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And some schools who've got devices, obviously the children answer their questions there and then.
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And then if they do do that on a device, all the answers go into the system
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and the system gives you a lot of data analysis about how the children are performing
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and what speed they're working through for the win. Are they at the expected standard?
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How many wins have they got to catch up and so on? But the key thing about Winning
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With Numbers is all the way through there's a remind me feature.
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So if the children or the teachers think, oh, the children aren't quite getting
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this or the children are at home and they don't quite understand,
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they can click the remind me feature.
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And the system will pick up what the children are not quite getting and take
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the member of staff or the parent back to the win that they need to revisit.
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When I play Duolingo to teach myself German, it knows the words that maybe I'm
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the weakest at and tries to build them into more sentences when I need it.
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Yeah, yeah. It's lesson.
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Yeah. So it'll pick up on the knowledge you've not got and it'll take you back
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to that win and say, don't worry, it's fine. Again, we don't want to cause any
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stress around the fact that you're not quite getting it.
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Let's just remind you you're not done anything wrong. Let's just remind you
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the previous knowledge that you've forgotten.
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So it takes them back to that win. And again, the children can work through
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the resources, the videos for that current win.
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So again, the parents can watch the Be the Expert videos and the parents can
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watch the Teach Me videos. So we're upskilling teachers.
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We're supporting parents who might get worried about being in charge of maths
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because of their background knowledge.
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And we're also obviously teaching the children through the system and supporting
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them when those gaps have been identified.
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This is Podcash, brought to you by Cash Alumni. For discounts on everything
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from Apple products to MOTs, visit the Cashback page of cashalumni.org.uk.
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That's cashalumni.org.uk.
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Uk bethan you're
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like my dream guest because i keep thinking about interesting things to
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ask you and then you just answer them like during during the
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answer the previous question it sounds like that it encompasses
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that idea of helping teachers and
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parents to also become fluent and confident
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if they're not one of the more recent podcast
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episodes that we shared with dr helen williams about
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playful mathematics we talked a lot about like
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the thing that you talked about at the the beginning about someone having
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maybe a bad experience with maths I can pinpoint my
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bad experience with maths I know the moment that
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I forgot seven times seven over and over and over and over
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again and felt like I was never going to get it and that was me done with maths
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forever when I was in primary school but but we talked about that in that episode
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so the idea that as building that confidence in every area of that child's sort
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of learning environment I think is is really nice.
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You've talked about it fitting with the curriculum and how it sort of maps that
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progress and does stuff.
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The bit about it being phonics for maths, how does working with numbers fit
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with the primary maths curriculum?
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It's taken the whole of the number part of the primary maths curriculum.
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So the rest of the maths curriculum, you know, winning with numbers doesn't
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address, addressed. It is just the number part.
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So it lifted the number part out of the maths curriculum.
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And you know, if you follow Winner With Numbers, you are absolutely covering
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your curriculum, their maths curriculum as it stands, and introduce Winner With Numbers as an addition.
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So it's just an extra injection, if you like, of number.
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So they know when they come to that part of number or a part of the wider maths
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curriculum where they'll need that knowledge, the children Children will be
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confident because they've already come across this in winning with numbers.
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That makes sense. And I think talking to Helen Williams, like obviously she
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was saying that like number is the bit that people aren't confident with.
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So schools might already be doing things like doing more shape stuff,
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because if you use the word maths and people start to associate that with shape.
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So with volume, with like that sort of fun experimenting type stuff that you do in maths.
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Music.
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With numbers bit because they're already confident so if actually they can also,
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build that numbers confidence at the same time
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and start to associate that all as maths
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yeah yeah no i would completely agree with helen saying that and that's why
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you know many have taken this as as an addition you know and this is extra injection
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just like you have phonics as an addition and it sits in isolation 20 minutes
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a day it's part of your day again because you might And that's what the difficulty
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is with a curriculum where you've got different strands of maths.
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Like you say, some teachers might lean towards spending longer in this strand
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because it's, you know, more fun or they're more confident with it.
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So having Winner With Numbers where you are just focusing on the number part
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and you're moving from one win to the next ensures that that part,
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the really important part of the curriculum is being covered thoroughly.
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That's great. And what did you, you've been everywhere.
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It what was it like going across to America and like
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the difference between the education systems in all
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three of those places is quite stark I
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would imagine so yeah I started in Swindon just because that was kind of the
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first job that came out when you came to uni so you applied straight away for
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the first job and all of a sudden you moved into Swindon and then America yeah
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I had a desire to kind of work elsewhere and I could see that in Swindon when
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I became maths lead for the the region,
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you know, and I was really enjoying that role, but I thought,
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and I wanted to progress with it, which is why I stepped out at that point thinking,
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let's do the working elsewhere now.
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So then I could kind of return and really, really get my teeth into the career.
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But so, and then coming to Wales after America.
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So the biggest difference in America was that it was 11 form entry primary school, which.
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Not sure if they exist in England, but we're generally two-form,
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three-form is a big school.
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So working in an 11-form primary school was different.
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And I was working in kindergarten, which again, the kindergarten approach is very different.
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But it was a fantastic experience and I became multicultural lead and it was a big school.
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And so community events were, there was a lot of money invested in them.
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So it was a great opportunity to be multicultural lead and
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organize these different events and you know really great
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budget in order to do that so yeah
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so yeah it was a great experience to do that and then obviously to move
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to wales and then back to england so you know the english and the wales curriculum
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you know the big big difference that people would talk about at the moment i
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guess would be the offset versus austin austin is the offset of wales and the
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topic at the moment is how the whales have taken the judgment out of the inspection
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and just kind of given schools.
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Recommendations without that label that obviously a lot of people in England are fighting for.
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So that's, I'm just using that because that's one thing that's really kind of
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been discussed at the moment.
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But yeah, I mean, to me, children are children wherever you go.
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And that's what's interesting about maths as well. You know,
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we've made sure that with our curriculum, we've looked at the American curriculum,
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the Australian curriculum, etc.
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Mass is mass wherever you go and so, you know, that's why the straight line
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is very important with maths, whereas the history curriculum or the geography
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curriculum or the English curriculum might change depending on which country you go to.
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But children are children wherever you are. And when it comes to maths,
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the maths curriculum, you know, can be pretty consistent from country to country.
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Can I ask how that had informed the sort of stuff that you'd done with maths
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and what you've got into that?
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You say maths is maths wherever you go.
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But I think one of the tensions that I think me and you might have talked about
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in one of our off-air conversations before now with maths is the way I do maths
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is different to the way my mum does maths.
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And the way my niece does maths is different
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to how I do maths so how you're
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absolutely right you're absolutely right people use
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different methods which is what makes it
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difficult so that that was a key
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we we knew that which is why
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we included the be the expert videos
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for parents in winning with numbers because
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that is the frustration at home a child says I've
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got this homework parent tries to support teaches them
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in the wrong way because what they learned at school
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is very different method to what their child is learning in school so
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completely understands which is why we put those pdx within
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to say to parents right this is what they're learning and
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this is how to teach them this is the method we're using
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so parents can feel relieved to say right.
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I can support my child now because i know how they're learning it and
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we won't kind of have a clash clash of discussions so and
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with that as well for the first hundred we're also
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saying to parents because the children are obviously very
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young at that point they might not be writing they might be just saying their
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numbers one to three for example that's the first twin so in those videos we
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say to parents this is what they're learning here's some ideas maybe get some
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pasta out of the cupboard and lay the pasta out and ask the children to you
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know count them or or what have have you?
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So we're saying to the parents, start with the learning platform.
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Watch the videos, but then here's some ideas of what you can do in play with
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your child, help kind of reinforce this number knowledge.
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So yeah, I completely understand. And that's why, like I say,
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we've included that to try and get rid of that frustration of all these different
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methods that people have learned how to do math. I like the idea of like.
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Tangible examples as well like ways to build it into play
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because i think like obviously again like thinking about maths being
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boring and scary like actually yeah it's
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not we use maths all the time like even the
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chickens that i've got in the garden do maths they look at the
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two piles of stuff and they decide which one's bigger and which one.
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They're they're all going to head towards like yeah it's.
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It's something that would do quite naturally if
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yeah i left to do it without it becoming
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scary so yeah yeah it
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doesn't have to be sit down and do this work for half an hour like you
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say just whilst you're cooking whilst you're watching tv or
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whatever you know you can add it add in these
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relevant questions that don't feel like
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the child's doing some work you know if you like yeah that
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sounds great and is that similar with the teachers with
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the staff members who are accessing the platform so for
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those who might not be very confident with
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teaching and maths it's that same sort of thought there
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for them actually yeah yeah so again we
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say start with the platform watch watch the video and
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they're all very short particularly with the younger you know two three minutes
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and then take that learning into your
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areas in your classroom and here's some
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ideas and that's where we've not said directly what
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teachers have to do because people's environments vary so
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just some ideas to kind of spark a
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little bit of the teacher's creativity or you know
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to inspire them on the kind of things that they could do because their
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resources would vary store to store this sounds like a
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really great solution like how are you finding it getting into schools like
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what what how how easy is it to sort of give schools an an answer to to that
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the problems that they've got with with a maths curriculum yeah so we've only We've only been.
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Because there's near to 2000 videos on the platform.
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So there was the period of obviously creating all those videos and making it.
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And so we've been in schools for the last 18 months or so.
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And when we speak to schools and show them.
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They absolutely can see what we're trying to achieve and how it would be effective in their school.
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So we don't really get any negative feedback.
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It might be, oh, we can't use this right now because we've just started a new
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phonics scheme, for example, and hitting staff with two new programs is too much.
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So they might say, right, let's delay that until September, which is absolutely right,
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because the implementation of any kind of new program you
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use has got to be done effectively and we
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work very closely with our schools to ensure
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that the implementation is done effectively again because
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of being head teachers we know we know what it's like
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so we are our customers if
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you like and so we understand the issues
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in schools and the difficulties in schools and so we very
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much as part of our program put quite intense support
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in we want to see ourselves as part of
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the team so we make sure you know we provide
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launch training to introduce winning with
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numbers to all the staff and then we very much
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suggest going in you know on a termly basis working maybe with the maths leads
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or with teachers to look at where you're at as a school and and the implementation
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and how we can support and we're always on the end of a phone for you know a
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team's meeting with the maths lead or the head teacher or you know can you support
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this can Can you give us advice on this?
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Because we aren't just a, we don't like the word product. We aren't just a product
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that we just give to schools and we say goodbye.
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As soon as schools start winning with numbers, we see ourselves as part of their team.
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And we want to work with them to make sure that it's implemented as well as
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possible in their context. Because each context is different.
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Some might use it just for an intervention for some children who need to kind
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of catch up. Some schools, most schools use it whole school,
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some secondary schools have started to use it again for those children who need additional support.
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So we want to be part of that conversation to make sure that the implementation is smooth.
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And schools, you know, work extremely well.
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Music.
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Strapline they've seen it for reading they
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said that here are the programs that you
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should be using in order to get phonics and where
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it needs to be and they're starting to get there with
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number as well so you know
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schools do see that it's a problem and still see that winning with numbers can
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can address that quite well that sounds great tell us more about secondary schools
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using Win With Numbers because I hadn't thought about how this programme could
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actually support anyone who needs support with numbers and maths and confidence.
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Yeah, yeah. So what's great about it, obviously, when you're teaching a whole
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class, you're teaching one win, but you might have children who should be on
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a lower win or a higher win.
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And so what's great about Win With Numbers is that individual children can be
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on on different wins if the setup allowed that.
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So at secondary school, it particularly does. So if we have not met the expected
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standard at primary, so what do secondary schools do with them?
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The key thing we would say is get them fluent and confident with number.
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And so often they may be sent out with a learning support assistant to do some
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catch-up programs, but the learning support assistant or the teacher doesn't
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know the primary curriculum.
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So they might not be hitting the right part of the child's learning journey.
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So with Winner with Numbers, a learning support assistant could take the group
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of children out and each of the individual children could be on a different win.
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And they simply, on an iPad or some device, press play.
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It'll teach them. And so the learning support assistant in secondary is just
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there to facilitate that group.
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But they're able to simply press play the child
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is taught press play on the goal video as the
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child is modeled how to answer the questions then they that
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child can answer the questions if they get stuck they got
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the remind me feature to take them back so the secondary
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schools very much use them like that where the
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learning support assistant is just a facilitator but
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they know they're getting high quality math teaching at the exact point where
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the child's at rather than the the teacher assistant being given something by
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the class teacher who might not be aware of exactly where the child's at and
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then primary curriculum and how to how to deliver that so.
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Really, it's kind of, someone said it's like a gift to secondary schools because it's there on a plate.
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And again, you might have learning support assistants who've not had a good
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experience with maths, not confident themselves.
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They can watch, even if it's two minutes before the lesson, the Be The Expert
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video that will help explain to them what's going to be covered and how it's
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going to be taught and so on.
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00:28:04,918
This is Podcash, brought to you by Cash Alumni. For job search and careers advice
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00:28:04,918 -->
00:28:10,798
in care, health and education, why not try our state-of-the-art SkillsMiner AI tool?
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00:28:11,118 -->
00:28:18,218
SkillsMiner is under the careers tab of cashalumni.org.uk. That's cashalumni.org.uk.
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00:28:26,658
I used to work in welfare work and in homelessness, and a lot of the people
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that I would support or that would come into contact with would struggle with numeracy.
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00:28:31,378 -->
00:28:37,118
Can you see winning with numbers support in those adult groups with numeracy skills?
433
00:28:37,398 -->
00:28:41,618
Yeah, absolutely. So the government, I don't know if listeners know,
434
00:28:41,738 -->
00:28:45,138
but they've invested a lot of money in what they call the Multiply Project.
435
00:28:45,438 -->
00:28:51,198
And the Multiply Project, the purpose of that is to get the adults you're talking
436
00:28:51,198 -->
00:28:53,798
about fluent and confident with number, if you like.
437
00:28:53,798 -->
00:28:56,518
And so there's there's lots of
438
00:28:56,518 -->
00:28:59,918
organizations who are running various programs to support
439
00:28:59,918 -->
00:29:04,998
adult with numeracy exactly what you've described there so we actually work
440
00:29:04,998 -->
00:29:11,818
with the moment two or three organizations they're actually football clubs who
441
00:29:11,818 -->
00:29:17,598
kind of run these adult programs and they've they now work with us so they use
442
00:29:17,598 -->
00:29:18,958
winning with numbers as part of their program.
443
00:29:19,278 -->
00:29:24,458
So they might run some sessions on cooking on a budget, if you like,
444
00:29:24,518 -->
00:29:27,718
to help those adults with numeracy on that side.
445
00:29:27,898 -->
00:29:32,038
But they also use Winning with Numbers and those adults work through the Winning
446
00:29:32,038 -->
00:29:34,138
with Numbers program with their child.
447
00:29:34,658 -->
00:29:37,758
So it is teaching them.
448
00:29:38,635 -->
00:29:42,735
The maths that their child's learning and promoting
449
00:29:42,735 -->
00:29:45,635
a more positive kind of relationship between the adults and
450
00:29:45,635 -->
00:29:50,715
the child when it comes to supporting with homework but also it's helping the
451
00:29:50,715 -->
00:29:55,935
child their parent with their own numeracy too so the last hundred wins particularly
452
00:29:55,935 -->
00:30:00,735
a lot of us would have to kind of remind ourselves how to multiply with decimal
453
00:30:00,735 -->
00:30:02,915
place numbers and things things like that.
454
00:30:03,315 -->
00:30:08,895
So those last 100 weeks, particularly those adults, either with their child
455
00:30:08,895 -->
00:30:14,895
are working through the winning numbers program, or they're able to use the
456
00:30:14,895 -->
00:30:16,695
program themselves individually.
457
00:30:17,175 -->
00:30:21,795
Some of them might not like to within the group, but they've got access.
458
00:30:22,255 -->
00:30:25,415
If they buy winning numbers, they've got access both in school,
459
00:30:25,515 -->
00:30:27,075
in the groups and at home.
460
00:30:27,455 -->
00:30:32,695
So So those adults might access that at home on their own, working through the program themselves.
461
00:30:33,835 -->
00:30:37,575
So, yeah, because we tried to strip away a lot of the gamification for cognitive
462
00:30:37,575 -->
00:30:42,575
load, CV reasons, but also to ensure that it wasn't childlike,
463
00:30:42,635 -->
00:30:44,155
if you like, for secondary schools.
464
00:30:44,155 -->
00:30:50,955
And so adults who are using it don't find it particularly childish,
465
00:30:51,095 -->
00:30:53,795
you know, because there's no gamification.
466
00:30:53,935 -->
00:30:57,675
Kind of like I say, we've stripped it back as much as possible to make people
467
00:30:57,675 -->
00:31:00,795
focus on the learning and the teaching that's going on in the videos.
468
00:31:01,215 -->
00:31:06,955
So, yeah, we are working with some young adults groups in order to improve their numeracy.
469
00:31:07,035 -->
00:31:10,755
And, you know, we found that we hadn't thought about that ourselves,
470
00:31:11,015 -->
00:31:13,175
but it's been really effective.
471
00:31:13,175 -->
00:31:16,135
And so you know we very much would welcome
472
00:31:16,135 -->
00:31:19,775
opportunity to work with kind of young adult groups particularly
473
00:31:19,775 -->
00:31:22,735
if they've got children who can also work through the program
474
00:31:22,735 -->
00:31:26,475
as well yeah i suppose like as an adult who obviously
475
00:31:26,475 -->
00:31:29,575
is quite good at maths having been maths lead
476
00:31:29,575 -->
00:31:37,215
from a young age and marrying another maths head teacher how how do you get.
477
00:31:36,560 -->
00:31:51,600
Music.
478
00:31:37,215 -->
00:31:44,175
Into the mindset of someone one who's not good at maths well interestingly we're
479
00:31:44,175 -->
00:31:47,415
not i did math a level but we're not,
480
00:31:48,175 -->
00:31:55,715
what you would imagine as in grade a students to degree level you know or first degree at all,
481
00:31:56,635 -->
00:32:00,835
particularly then so obviously we got through school we did okay with math but
482
00:32:00,835 -->
00:32:06,755
i think it's because i'm waffling out here but i had an a level teacher hopefully
483
00:32:06,755 -->
00:32:09,735
he's not listening he was a A lovely man, but he was so,
484
00:32:09,955 -->
00:32:12,055
so, so intelligent in math.
485
00:32:12,195 -->
00:32:18,895
He could not communicate it because it was all in his brain and he couldn't communicate it to us.
486
00:32:19,015 -->
00:32:24,975
Like I say, a lovely man that just couldn't teach it because he didn't understand
487
00:32:24,975 -->
00:32:28,715
people who didn't understand it. I had a similar experience with a math teacher.
488
00:32:28,835 -->
00:32:31,215
We were on the board and we were all lost within seconds.
489
00:32:32,585 -->
00:32:35,405
That's not us. So very much.
490
00:32:35,445 -->
00:32:41,305
That's why I think Ben is really invested in math, particularly because he's
491
00:32:41,305 -->
00:32:48,405
able to teach it, understanding that it needs to be broken down into very, very small steps.
492
00:32:48,605 -->
00:32:51,365
So our winning with numbers curriculum, you've got the national curriculum here.
493
00:32:51,465 -->
00:32:55,325
The winning with numbers curriculum is broken into very, very small steps.
494
00:32:55,325 -->
00:32:58,245
And the goals within each win is broken down
495
00:32:58,245 -->
00:33:00,925
even further and if you see the
496
00:33:00,925 -->
00:33:03,605
videos you will see that because it's it's based on a
497
00:33:03,605 -->
00:33:06,365
real understanding that gaps are
498
00:33:06,365 -->
00:33:09,665
caused because we move through the curriculum too quickly and
499
00:33:09,665 -->
00:33:14,645
so most people need it broken down into really small steps in order to understand
500
00:33:14,645 -->
00:33:21,785
it and able to grasp so actually yeah you know we're not phd students in maths
501
00:33:21,785 -->
00:33:26,265
And we understand that a curriculum needs to be broken down into the smallest
502
00:33:26,265 -->
00:33:27,705
of steps because we understand,
503
00:33:27,865 -->
00:33:30,785
frankly, the majority of people learn like that.
504
00:33:31,065 -->
00:33:34,925
And that's why we've got such a great percentage of students going to secondary
505
00:33:34,925 -->
00:33:38,505
school without that basic knowledge because we're moving through the curriculum too quickly.
506
00:33:38,665 -->
00:33:42,405
Being a bit like that A-level teacher I talked about there, you know,
507
00:33:42,425 -->
00:33:47,885
so winning with numbers is not being built by somebody with that mindset at all.
508
00:33:48,025 -->
00:33:52,345
So that makes a lot of sense. it's like my the best math yeah best math teacher
509
00:33:52,345 -->
00:33:57,325
i ever had was a gentleman who actually failed his math jcse twice and then
510
00:33:57,325 -->
00:34:01,265
he joined the army and the army taught him maths and because.
511
00:34:02,065 -->
00:34:09,205
They'd taught it to people who didn't understand maths and hate maths that way
512
00:34:09,205 -->
00:34:15,065
when he left the army he decided to get his piece pgc and become a math teacher i think.
513
00:34:15,733 -->
00:34:21,473
What I learned about maths at that time was that I needed maths to be tangible.
514
00:34:21,693 -->
00:34:27,213
I needed it to be something that I could imagine or that was real so that numbers
515
00:34:27,213 -->
00:34:34,373
became like something that you could picture rather than just obtuse things that exist. Yeah, yeah.
516
00:34:34,593 -->
00:34:38,953
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But as well, these days, moving,
517
00:34:39,213 -->
00:34:44,453
you know, with how fast tech is moving, to have a whole curriculum and all the
518
00:34:44,453 -->
00:34:47,693
tangible things you need in order to move that curriculum is really difficult,
519
00:34:47,813 -->
00:34:49,533
which is why, you know, again,
520
00:34:49,713 -->
00:34:55,913
putting Winnie with Numbers onto a platform allows it all to be there and all
521
00:34:55,913 -->
00:34:58,433
to be accessible by schools and homes.
522
00:34:58,433 -->
00:35:01,793
And then the tangible part the human beings
523
00:35:01,793 -->
00:35:04,613
you know in the child's life can can build that in
524
00:35:04,613 -->
00:35:07,653
but having having it all there in one place
525
00:35:07,653 -->
00:35:10,313
with all the teaching and the resources and the
526
00:35:10,313 -->
00:35:15,573
support you know i think is important these days particularly you know and with
527
00:35:15,573 -->
00:35:19,773
things like homeschooling and and there's a whole world of homeschooling out
528
00:35:19,773 -->
00:35:24,613
there again we don't want people just plucking at different activities in math
529
00:35:24,613 -->
00:35:28,373
there's a risk of that too especially with like Like we say with the tangible,
530
00:35:28,433 -->
00:35:30,173
we'll do a bit of this today, do a bit of that.
531
00:35:30,593 -->
00:35:35,493
The subject knowledge, you know, and that straight line curriculum is so,
532
00:35:35,633 -->
00:35:38,033
so important to avoid the children getting gaps.
533
00:35:38,453 -->
00:35:42,173
Yeah, and you touched on something else there that's really interesting that I hadn't thought about.
534
00:35:42,273 -->
00:35:44,853
And that's the connection. connection you know
535
00:35:44,853 -->
00:35:47,873
there is a lot of homeschooling and there's also a lot of children who
536
00:35:47,873 -->
00:35:51,193
are not going to school but also
537
00:35:51,193 -->
00:35:54,313
who may have like infrequent or
538
00:35:54,313 -->
00:35:57,453
sort of spotty contact with school
539
00:35:57,453 -->
00:36:00,753
and actually people can maintain some
540
00:36:00,753 -->
00:36:07,433
sort of access to kids and bobs that they can follow through but also yeah keep
541
00:36:07,433 -->
00:36:11,393
track of where they're at with it through something that is a straight it sounds
542
00:36:11,393 -->
00:36:15,833
like it might be something that could support those people who maybe aren't
543
00:36:15,833 -->
00:36:18,053
accessing school every day.
544
00:36:18,911 -->
00:36:22,111
Yeah, for sure. If it's if, you know, you have got children in your school,
545
00:36:22,251 -->
00:36:26,051
giving them access to Winner with Numbers means that they've got the full number curriculum at home.
546
00:36:26,111 -->
00:36:29,751
And like I say, worst case, if there wasn't an adult there who was able to support
547
00:36:29,751 -->
00:36:33,071
them, you know, they can just press play.
548
00:36:33,751 -->
00:36:39,291
Most children are pretty tech savvy, if you like, compared to adult.
549
00:36:40,151 -->
00:36:43,131
You know, when it plays on their mobile phone, they can do the questions on
550
00:36:43,131 -->
00:36:45,331
a mobile phone as well. So that's what people say.
551
00:36:45,391 -->
00:36:48,631
If people haven't got devices, you know, looking at children who are more disadvantaged,
552
00:36:48,891 -->
00:36:53,711
we find that giving them an A4 sheet to do at home, if they're not at school,
553
00:36:53,931 -->
00:36:59,191
compared to doing something on their mum's mobile, even the most disadvantaged,
554
00:36:59,511 -->
00:37:03,691
the huge majority of people have got a mobile phone, they're much more likely
555
00:37:03,691 -->
00:37:08,771
to do something on a mobile phone than on a sheet that might get lost or what have you.
556
00:37:08,771 -->
00:37:14,851
And again, the teacher or the parent is able to access the answers to the questions
557
00:37:14,851 -->
00:37:18,871
in real time, you know, and it'll kind of analyze how the children are doing,
558
00:37:19,031 -->
00:37:23,031
what they're not getting right, you know, when they need to move back to and so on.
559
00:37:23,111 -->
00:37:29,151
So a much more effective way for those children who are kind of in school part time or not at all.
560
00:37:29,611 -->
00:37:33,731
If they've got access to Winning With Numbers, you know, you can track if they're
561
00:37:33,731 -->
00:37:37,151
doing it as well on a daily or how often they're doing it and so on.
562
00:37:37,151 -->
00:37:41,391
So it would be, you know, a really good resource for that, because,
563
00:37:41,491 -->
00:37:45,091
again, it's often the school's responsibility, that child, even though they're not coming in.
564
00:37:45,271 -->
00:37:50,111
So how can we meet our responsibility and ensure they're getting some kind of curriculum?
565
00:37:50,251 -->
00:37:55,391
And again, because the videos are on there, they're getting quality teaching,
566
00:37:55,511 -->
00:37:57,711
you know, if they are accessing it.
567
00:37:57,811 -->
00:38:01,051
And that's just obviously something the school would have to monitor.
568
00:38:01,811 -->
00:38:06,991
Do you think you'll ever offer winning with numbers to individuals? Yeah, we do.
569
00:38:07,131 -->
00:38:10,171
There's a school subscription, there's
570
00:38:10,171 -->
00:38:13,851
a tutor subscription and there's an individual parent subscription.
571
00:38:16,589 -->
00:38:19,429
Schools subscribe all the parents and children get access
572
00:38:19,429 -->
00:38:22,289
at home parents don't need to do anything but if
573
00:38:22,289 -->
00:38:24,949
you're part of a school that doesn't subscribe to winning with numbers as a
574
00:38:24,949 -->
00:38:27,789
parent you can subscribe one child that
575
00:38:27,789 -->
00:38:31,409
10 children if you've got that so yeah individual
576
00:38:31,409 -->
00:38:34,289
parents can't subscribe to the winning
577
00:38:34,289 -->
00:38:37,309
with numbers and have access kind of all year round and then
578
00:38:37,309 -->
00:38:40,049
the same for tutors because again there's a
579
00:38:40,049 -->
00:38:43,429
lot of tutors who could move through
580
00:38:43,429 -->
00:38:46,469
the winning with numbers through a program with their with their tutees
581
00:38:46,469 -->
00:38:50,109
and again the parents would be able to access it as well so so
582
00:38:50,109 -->
00:38:53,169
yeah it is offered to individuals too oh that's
583
00:38:53,169 -->
00:38:56,549
really exciting maybe that's one
584
00:38:56,549 -->
00:38:59,529
of the things me or my colleagues might explore with our development allowance
585
00:38:59,529 -->
00:39:02,909
so that we can get better at maths yeah yeah
586
00:39:02,909 -->
00:39:07,509
yeah we've talked about loads of interesting things is there anything that you
587
00:39:07,509 -->
00:39:10,569
haven't had a chance to talk about yet that you'd like our audience to know
588
00:39:10,569 -->
00:39:15,849
i think it's It's important to make the point that there's a lot of negative
589
00:39:15,849 -->
00:39:18,709
press around teaching and a lot of negative press around math,
590
00:39:18,749 -->
00:39:20,409
too, but about the profession.
591
00:39:20,649 -->
00:39:24,489
And I think at every point in my life, working for a very disadvantaged school
592
00:39:24,489 -->
00:39:27,809
in Wales, particularly, and then moving into this winning with numbers,
593
00:39:27,949 -->
00:39:29,949
it is about improving life chances.
594
00:39:30,149 -->
00:39:34,409
Now, all schools will say that out of their vision or on their slogan.
595
00:39:34,409 -->
00:39:38,829
But you know my personal mission
596
00:39:38,829 -->
00:39:42,109
in life if you like is to improve life chances
597
00:39:42,109 -->
00:39:45,849
and i think there's been a lot of investment put into reading
598
00:39:45,849 -->
00:39:51,089
because we know that improves life chances but we also know numeracy improves
599
00:39:51,089 -->
00:39:55,449
life chances and there's been less investment in that which is exactly why we're
600
00:39:55,449 -->
00:40:00,849
doing winner with numbers if you like and we started it because we very much
601
00:40:00,849 -->
00:40:02,549
are about improving life chances.
602
00:40:02,749 -->
00:40:06,169
And we know literacy and numeracy will do exactly that.
603
00:40:06,320 -->
00:40:12,720
Music.
604
00:40:06,569 -->
00:40:11,969
So let's focus on numeracy because there's been less work done in that area.
605
00:40:12,589 -->
00:40:16,189
So, you know, that's my person and I don't want to lose that.
606
00:40:16,629 -->
00:40:20,529
And, you know, if everybody listening is in education, you know,
607
00:40:20,609 -->
00:40:26,189
I would, it's slightly off, but let's not lose the kind of why and the purpose.
608
00:40:26,809 -->
00:40:29,669
It's challenging, journey it's difficult there's a lot of negative prayer
609
00:40:29,669 -->
00:40:32,649
but let's not lose the purpose and the why and for
610
00:40:32,649 -->
00:40:35,529
me it's about improving life chances and so i'm not
611
00:40:35,529 -->
00:40:38,469
going to be negative about that you know and i'm
612
00:40:38,469 -->
00:40:41,909
going to be positive about that you know and i would just encourage everybody
613
00:40:41,909 -->
00:40:44,829
you know wherever they're at in their own personal math journey and whether
614
00:40:44,829 -->
00:40:49,889
in education it's kind of not lose your why and not lose your purpose and and
615
00:40:49,889 -->
00:40:56,069
maintain a positive mindset towards math for education as a whole,
616
00:40:56,169 -->
00:41:01,309
because I think that is kind of slowly deteriorating and we don't want that, you know.
617
00:41:01,489 -->
00:41:04,969
So yeah, that's kind of the last little nugget, I might say.
618
00:41:05,609 -->
00:41:10,869
That's a really nice note to end on. Where can people find Winning North Numbers
619
00:41:10,869 -->
00:41:12,969
and Harden Education if they want to find you?
620
00:41:13,781 -->
00:41:17,201
Yeah. So Winner With Numbers is, we've got a website and that'll give you all
621
00:41:17,201 -->
00:41:21,541
the information you need. And that's www.numbers.com.
622
00:41:21,761 -->
00:41:26,561
So not www, but www.numbers.com, Winner With Numbers.
623
00:41:26,821 -->
00:41:29,921
And that website will give you all the information you need.
624
00:41:30,061 -->
00:41:34,821
And there's a link on there if you wanted a demo or if you wanted an informal
625
00:41:34,821 -->
00:41:38,601
conversation with us about anything we've talked about, you can kind of book
626
00:41:38,601 -->
00:41:40,361
a slot directly into our diary.
627
00:41:40,481 -->
00:41:42,801
So, you know, please do do that.
628
00:41:43,781 -->
00:41:47,101
So, yeah, that's probably the best place to find us.
629
00:41:47,221 -->
00:41:50,041
And then Harden Education, where we provide a lot of leadership,
630
00:41:50,121 -->
00:41:52,981
training and support is hardeneducation.com.
631
00:41:53,121 -->
00:41:56,601
But we talk mainly about winning with numbers, but you can also find us there
632
00:41:56,601 -->
00:41:57,881
at hardeneducation.com.
633
00:41:58,061 -->
00:42:02,801
And we are on Twitter and LinkedIn and Instagram, and it was kind of three stages
634
00:42:02,801 -->
00:42:05,661
there. So please do subscribe on any social followers.
635
00:42:05,941 -->
00:42:09,901
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed it, please follow or subscribe on your
636
00:42:09,901 -->
00:42:12,121
podcast app so you never miss an episode.
637
00:42:12,121 -->
00:42:17,521
You can also watch many of these conversations by heading over to cashalumni.org.uk
638
00:42:17,521 -->
00:42:21,121
and going to the CPD and best practice section of the site.
639
00:42:21,301 -->
00:42:23,521
That's cashalumni.org.uk.
