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Hello parents, and welcome back to picking teams.
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Our guest today is Dr Tommy Valentini, coach and professor of sport ethics and sport philosophy at Gustavus Adolphus University, where he's also the head coach of the men's tennis team. Tommy's coaching career also includes stints at Emory University with me, the University of Nebraska and the Minnesota River Bulldogs, where he coaches youth hockey and runs a coach education team, culture building program. Dr Tommy Valentini has some great insights to share with us today.
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I'm thrilled.
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First of all, thanks for having me. I mean, we could be having these conversations, not in a podcast format, could be always have. So this is so cool to be doing this, and so inspiring and such a important role in that space that doesn't often get fed anything gets fed too much, and not much of it is meaningful or helpful in any way, shape or form. So thanks for doing what you're doing always, and being such a supporter and dear friend of mine and mentor and for having me
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Well, Tommy, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. So to start off, why don't you share with us what you think some challenges that sports parents face today,
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I think speaking to the parent side, not only as a parent, but someone who's had parents in programs at various levels, whether it's been, you know, division one or division three college, all the way down to, you know, eight and under, hockey and coaching at those levels in different places and both genders and all of it.
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I think I work with parents in these hockey associations, or the parents in our own program.
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I think what, what challenges parents a lot is that it's a, it's a oftentimes, just a recipe for disaster, just by nature of the way things are. So they love their kids big time. All of a sudden things get competitive, right? You're trying to make teams or play well or win games or do whatever it is. So you've got this competitive piece of the puzzle and these result oriented games. And then, not only those other kids, but I don't think as parents, we often always understand the level of attachment that we have to what our kids do or what they accomplish or don't accomplish.
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We don't do a lot of reflecting on that until we actually get into the space and stuff starts happening. And so I think you've got that love, you've got a little bit of that, that subconscious, unintentional attachment, and then, and then you have just intense emotional gains as well, right? I mean, in hockey, these people, nobody wakes up, I tell parents all the time on a Saturday morning and walks into a freezing cold arena and says, I'm going to make a fool out of myself. Make this more difficult for my kid and my kids coach, and make it uncomfortable and uneducational for everybody around me, but we see it on a week to week basis, right? Because we have no we have that love, we have that attachment. It's competitive, but also, parents don't have much training or developed tools in any way, shape or form and how to be a good and helpful Sports Parent, right? They just love their kids, and they show up, and then whatever happens, happens, and it oftentimes, you know, gets, gets way out of hand. At worst, I mean, at best, that's maybe neutral or not helpful, right? And so what we try to do, both in our college program and also with the youth programs that we work with, is, first of all, help our parents understand and do some reflecting in conversation on what the hell are we doing here in the first place, right? Like, what's this all about? Why are we here? Why are these kids here? And very rarely, when they when they actually start playing with that reasoning a little bit and verbalizing it and sharing it, do they ever wind up at like, you know, I want the next, you know, center on the first line and running the power play for the New York Rangers, right?
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We don't, they don't get there, right? I'm not trying to get my kid to be top 50 on the ATP or WTA Tour. It's they have fun, and they're with their friends, and they grow and they learn, and it's teamwork, and it's discipline, and it's time management. It's whatever we could talk all day about what they think they want to get out of it, right? But it's not the wild, crazy stuff, right? So then, then the next thing you know, sort of philosophically and from the more academic side that I work on is telling like the research is pretty conclusive. If you don't do those things intentionally, it's not very likely that you're going to get them so we've got to get you going parent on a path that has you operating and showing up and modeling in the same direction as what you want your kids to learn and what you want to get out of this experience. So how do we actually do that? Well, the first is model the behaviors that you're hoping for in your in your kids, right? The number one thing they're going to do and how they're going to learn is what they see you do in these situations, if you rip a coach, if you make excuses, if you go after a 15 year old rep on a Sunday morning at eight o'clock was making $4 an hour because they missed an outside by, you know, six tenths of a Bucha millimeter, right? That's what you're going to give the kids permission to do, right? If we want this to be a part of their education, if we want this to be a part of their character development and their moral functioning. If we want it to be fun, if we want it to be a place where they learn values and they build relationships right, and they grow as people, then we've got to be doing things as parents to do that. And I think what handicaps that a lot of times, is parents don't feel like they have much agency from the coaches or the association or that it's drop them off, pay the bills, you know, if the kid has a problem, send them to me, right? And that's it, you know.
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And so parents get frustrated because they've got the love and the attachments. They think they know what they want, but then they don't feel like they have a lot of agency. And so it all comes out, you know, in the car ride home, right? And that's about it. And so we try to tell parents, we need you to model.
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We need you on our team. You're welcome. You're a part of the team, you're a part of the association, you're a part of this process. We don't need you to tell them to bend their knees and follow through. We don't need you to tell them where to stand on the power play or where to hit their serves or their volleys right? We need you to focus as little as possible on the results and help steer the conversation the direction of what is the kid getting out of it? Are they living out values that are that are related to things that are within our control? Are they being great teammates? Are they giving their best? Are they choosing to be positive? Are they demonstrating respect and sportsmanship? And if not, what's getting in the way of that, rather than the first question that everybody asks when your kid gets in the car is, did you win, and how many goals did you score? And, you know, so on and so forth.
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And so I think just trying to help parents, big picture, have a really clear sense of what they want to get out of this, and what their kids want to get out of this. And then, you know, day to day operations give them some agency and some tools and some clarity with what to do to go in that direction that they know we all want the big picture. Because if you're not clear about that direction, you're not doing things to get there. That's when we see all the garbage and the challenges that we see with parents at every level.
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That's right, that's so true. Think that once they identify the path that they want to see their child go down, that path being a path towards health, happiness. You know, all of these great values that sport provides to a child. Yes, exactly so, what would be these tools? What would be the tools that can help them to get to that, how to support my child,
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I think, continuing to reflect on what you're doing there in the first place. I just think that continual reflection is so important from there, it varies a little bit based on the environment and how much choice people have over the environment that the kid goes into. I think that's a huge tool for parents.
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Is is trying to do some homework on the front end as much as they can, and try to get a sense of does what's going on in this in this outfit, in this organization, does it match, or does it have the potential to match with the values that are most important to us? And then I would say from there if, if, if, what you see is that the value that's most important to any operation, whether it's a UA, you know, hockey team or soccer club, or whatever it is, or it's a college tennis program or anything in between. If the number one thing that they're setting out to do is win, I would say, run in the other direction, that would be another important tool, because so much of it relies on what's within our control and what's outside of our control, and helping parents really dig deep and get a firm grasp of where what they're in, which of those categories does what they're looking for live and be really clear about that, and then just put your entire focus on the things In terms of how you parent your kid in sport, on the things that are within their control. And I think a lot of times parents will hear that and think, Wow, this coach is just softer. This coach, it's just all we're going to give everybody a medal. And I don't want my kid to be a part of that type of atmosphere, because they're never going to learn anything, and they're never going to be tough enough, and they're never going to blah, blah, blah, and I think that's just a grave misunderstanding that then seeps into a lot of missed opportunities for parents, just because you have a dedicated focus on things like your best effort and choosing to have a positive attitude and always being respectful and having great sportsmanship no matter what the circumstances, those things aren't automatic.
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They don't come easily. They're not learned easily and they're not acted on easily in the youth or scholastic sports space. They take a lot of dedication to learn and to live out, and it's a constant journey, and it's a constant process, and you don't always meet the standard. I think, you know, I've been on teams as a player. I've certainly been a part of teams as a coach. I had the good fortune of being on teams with with you, and working with you where there were plenty of times where we met the objective results, and in terms of the objective, uncontrollable result, like winning and losing, we were we were successful. And in some of those times, we didn't live out the values that were most important to us. And it was very clear that we weren't successful at the highest standard. And I think having a program or coaches or leaders and captains and however the environment has shaped other parents, stakeholders and administrators that understand that is so crucial for parents, and then I think that's really what helps parents get a real sense of what their definition of success looks like for themselves and for their kids, and then really moving into that direction, I think that's what gives parents the most agency, but that also is the is the space where there's the room for most transferability, right?
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Like, if you can learn how to give your best and be positive and be respectful and be resilient and care about others and be a part of a group. If you can learn those things that are controllable in the context of playing whatever dumb game we're playing, which is just really ultimately, a bunch of made up obstacles, right? If you can learn and practice those things in those contexts. Well, then maybe when you really need to be able to do those things and live them out in life, when it matters, you're you're training for that, and that's ultimately what, what, what, hopefully, the best of sport can do for us in terms of being a part of our education. If that can happen, then we're doing something right, winning and losing. I mean, you've won a ton. You won more than anybody that that I know, right? I mean, does that make your life that much different right now, as a player or as a coach? No. I mean, it's what you've done in the process, and you've learned in the process and who you've become in the process, for sure, right?
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The winning and the losing, that doesn't change much at all?
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Yeah, yeah. It's, it's so true. I mean, one of the things when I retired from coaching and to and still, now, a couple years later, the number one question I get is, do you miss it? And I'm like, do I do I miss? What do I miss? What? So I'll tell you what I miss. I miss the relationships. I miss being able to see my players every day. I miss being able to mold them from the time that they get on campus till the time that they need into positive, productive adults that have goals, that have confidence and are ready to don't be independent members of society and successful. And I mean, gosh, some of the things that my players have gone on to do, or it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable how successful they are. And I feel like I have, you know, a little bit of hand. Do I miss the roller coaster that is associated with playing in the national championship or making it to the postseason or playing against a rival, or having to play back to back matches against top 10 opponents. No, I don't miss any about that's not everything that coaching is about. To me. It's not what sport is about. Sports about everything that happens in between
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Yeah, well, and I think, right, I think that as you talk about what, what parents can do and how they can see this thing, I think that all of the challenges that you just described, and stuff that you don't miss as much, those things are all the necessary parts of it, because that creates the space where the things that you really miss happen, right? And so you need that. You need the challenges. You need the difficulty. You need these areas where these super high achieving kids don't get it perfect and don't get it right all the time, so you have room for that growth, right? You need all that stuff. I think where parents get struggle is they don't see those spaces in those times as the context or the space in which the real work happens, right the part of the equation that you need. But it's not the most important part. They see it as the most important part we have to prove. We have to prove how good our kid is. Our kid has to prove how good they are. We've got this opponent. We've got to be better than them, so that we prove to everybody, we prove ourselves. I think there's so much proving, and there's so much should in, and there's so much needing when it comes to all these things that are outside of our control, rather than an appreciation for the challenges and the twists and the turns that those situations put us in, so that we can do the real work that you just that you just described because, because I think there's really the meaningful part about sport is not that it teaches automatic lessons, because it doesn't you learn what you get taught. I mean, we could do hours of this, and I could tell you the stuff that I was a part of and saw and did an experience playing hockey in the 90s in Minnesota, super competitively, right? Like that.
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What I was taking out of that was not the stuff my parents hoped 13 year old me was getting when they dropped me off at the rink, right? So you don't just throw the balls or the trucks or the or whatever out there and let them play, and it just happens, right? You have to get taught, but it's also we're not learning these things going on.
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So, right? Like it's not just that, either. It's the environment that I think can be this really meaningful, magical context, where you get in these situations and you face these obstacles and these challenges, and it's this really series of golden opportunities to learn and live out these values, if we choose to see it that way, if we choose to see it as we gotta prove and we've invested this much money in these lessons, and so, oh my gosh, this better pay off with a scholarship, or it Better pay off with another thing that's result based.
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That's when it gets really dangerous. And I think that's for us as coaches too. That's when you start to feel like, what are, what are we doing here? I don't, I don't love this right? Because now I've got some level of attachment to how this game or this this match or this season comes out right, rather than it being, you know what?
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How can this group and these kids learn and grow and live out these values no matter how this thing turns out? That's right.
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So and I think for coaches that we're constantly having to come back to that over and over again, because you're always dealing with those two areas, right, the learning and the growing and the developing and the relationships and at the same time, like the object of the game is to win, and so you're always trying to, you know, balance those things. I think if we always keep them like this right, with the important stuff more important, but holding intention, that the other stuff is there, and that's also what we're trying to do. I think that's what you and the best coaches get right.
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Transferring that to parents is is a whole nother challenge, but the more we can cut them in and let them in on the process. And this is what we're doing, and this is why we're doing it, and this is how we do it, and we need you to help us do it. When you get in the car, or you get on the road afterwards, or you come to a college tennis match, and you go out to the Cheesecake Factory afterwards, right? And you're having that conversation.
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Have it under the umbrella that we're we're building here. Have it in line with our culture, right? As opposed to, because you believe in it, you've chosen it, right and right, as opposed to, well, now we get outside the circle of the team right for us, it's the ride home from the rink up here, right? It's what happens after and outside that environment. And then it's as soon as mom or dad do a 180 from the from culture there, if the culture's value is based right, as soon as moms or dad do a 180 we just take like, nine steps backwards.
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That's right, that's right. That's so true. I love that you mentioned the car ride home. The car ride home is that one space that I'm always saying to parents, there's only five words that you should say. Have you seen that TED talk?
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I love I don't know. I hope it's I love watching you play.
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Yeah, I love watching you play. Like, I mean, that's it. That's it. When Billie Jean King dressed the Emory athletes a few years ago, she shared with the athletes, and I heard a reiterate this on the podcast recently, but she shared that when she came home from tennis, her parents never asked, never once the question they they asked was, did you have fun? Or what do you want for dinner? You know, that's it.
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And so I think that's one of the simplest tools that parents can can start with. I love that you mentioned the reflection piece.
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I mean, I think it's really important to continue to check in with yourself, check in with your partner, check in with anyone else that is involved in your child's sports engagement, and check in with them. Make sure you're all on the same page and about what their family values are, and how are we expressing that to our child? I think something else that would be helpful for parents too is if they had an understanding of what the team expectations are.
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And a lot of times, coaches don't necessarily formalize what those expectations are. Of course, you got to be on time.
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Of course, you got to show up for games, you know, of course.
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But like, it's not always so obvious, right? And, and, and there's a lot of gray area for families. You know, well, you have a vacation plan. Does my child have to be there for this, this match like, what? What does that mean? What are the repercussions if he doesn't? And all of that can be clearly articulated in some team expectations, even if they're simple and concise expectations, you can still refer back to them. One of the things that I always impress on coaches is, let's list out what are your expectations. Let's hang it from the locker room on the lockers.
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Let's make sure that the student athletes know what the expectations are. Let's make sure the parents know what the expectations are, because otherwise, parents see a snapshot of what's happening, or they get a Bryant to call home, or a kid gets in the car and they've got tears on their face and Well, what happened? They if they can, then go back to well, here are the team expectations, and it looks like you're not meeting them. If they can get on board with what's going on and what makes this team successful, and all of that stuff that's not related to the winning, right?
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It's not related to the outcome.
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It's related to the process. If they can get on board with what that entails, then we can really make an impact.
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Yeah, I think we want parents in on on our culture, right? That that our values in our in our process come first, and that's the highest standard of success, right? And so, like, we can be successful and lose, and we can be unsuccessful and win, right?
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And we want parents to get that understanding right, and then that hopefully impacts how that car ride home goes, right. So, so I love watching you play.
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That's the first thing out of their mouth. We try to also get them to also get them to ask questions that have to do with their effort and their attitude and their respect, before the questions are about the results, right? And then we try to get them to react as unemotionally as they can when it comes to results, right? Because a lot of times I think, well, if we're not, as a parent, going to lose our mind when, when they lose, then we're doing great. But then they get in the car and we lose our minds in a positive way when they win, right, which sends the same exact message, right, that the result is the most important thing and the thing that matters most. So it's in what we say and what we don't say. But all of that is so much easier to do as parents and stakeholders if we have a clear sense of the philosophy and the behaviors that extend from that philosophy, if we know that going in, right? I mean, asking parents to get on board with that without having them get a clear understanding of philosophically what we're doing in the first place, that's like asking you to train all year and then go play the national championship left handed, right?
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I mean, it makes no sense we wouldn't do that to our to our athletes, right? So we can't expect that we can do that to our other stakeholders as well.
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And so that's, I think, that conversation and training piece is so, so important in everything from the philosophy to how we're going to approach success to what our values are and how we want to live them out. And that extends to, I mean, I just, you know, both in terms of my coaching, but also in terms of my academic work.
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It's all centered around building a culture that teaches values and creates the space to be great at the thing you're doing, both at the same time.
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And I think those expectations are so important to be clear about, but also to be tied to the culture so that people stop this low level behavior of being accountable to just the person in charge, right? Like you know this, like you, when you have great teams, you don't want your players to be accountable to whatever Coach B says. That's not how it works. That might get us, that might get beyond freshmen, you know, our first year going for a couple weeks, right? But after that, it's they have to be accountable to each other, and they have to be accountable to the culture, because this is ours, right? And we don't often do that, mostly because of all the pay for play stuff and the youth sports space, and hey, if somebody doesn't like it, they'll just go to club x, or they'll go y, right? Or they'll leave. So there's less investment in the in the group, right? And in the group culture. And so I think that's where we lose a lot of this. But ultimately, if we're going to get it done, that's, that's the key, I think, because of the way it gets, that you just, you don't like the way it's going, so you leave, right?
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It's such a I mean, granted, he's not dissimilar to what's going on in college sports right now, right where? Where this line is so blurred between.
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Don't want people staying in situations that are toxic. But also we just allow people now to push the eject button so early that we don't create the the environment for any of the things that we're trying to teach to actually develop. So I don't want to make it sound like it's absolute, right, that you got to stay in the first place you go to, and it's got to be that way forever, especially in the youth sports space. But, you know, I think people, like I said, people hit that eject button so quickly that they don't see those expectations that you talked about that are so crucial on time. What can we miss? What, you know, just the basic stuff. They don't see that as part of the culture. They just see that as being accountable to the person who's ever in charge. And that's, that's, there's no that reasoning doesn't stick for doing it well and doing it effectively and believing right?
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The reasoning that sticks for doing it well and doing effectively and believing in it is, this is who we are, right?
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Like, if I don't go to practice six days in a row, then I want to play on the seventh day, right? Well, that could be I pissed the coach off, but what really makes that meaningful is, listen, one of our core values is that we give our best effort, right? And now this is what we do, and I this is not a way for me to give my best effort, right? One of our core principles is we operate on respect right now. I've not respected my teammates, I've not respected my coaches. I've not respected the process that we're going through, right and now I'm just going to show up and play.
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That's a whole lot different than I can I can get over, you know, Coach X or coach y being a little frustrated, right?
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Especially if they're, you know, not a professional coach, right?
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That they have a day job, and then they're showing up to coach this thing later on, right? And whatever it's but, but if it's, if it's I'm not my actions are not in line with these expectations, that are not in line with our culture and who we are, then we've got then we've got challenges, and I think we can do a better job, especially in the youth sports space, college and we get older, and it's a little more baked into the pie there, if you're running your college program, well, I think, but in the youth sports space, we've got to make it about our culture, right? And then I think there's more grace involved there as well, right?
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Like our culture is about these values. You're going on a family vacation that was planned a year ago, and now you all of a sudden made this team as the last person on the quadruple a team, right? If this is about our culture, then you're probably going on that trip. If this is about I'm going to piss off Coach Jones, then we're in some tough water there.
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Yeah, interesting, fascinating. I love, I love how you frame that with being accountable to the team, that's brilliant. Unfortunately, that's all we have time for today. But we have another great episode with Tommy plan to drop soon, and he'll share some more insights about team values, culture and lots of other Great stuff. You really won't want to miss it.
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Hello parents, and welcome back to picking teams.
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Our guest today is Dr Tommy Valentini, coach and professor of sport ethics and sport philosophy at Gustavus Adolphus University, where he's also the head coach of the men's tennis team. Tommy's coaching career also includes stints at Emory University with me, the University of Nebraska and the Minnesota River Bulldogs, where he coaches youth hockey and runs a coach education team, culture building program. Dr Tommy Valentini has some great insights to share with us today.
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I'm thrilled.
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First of all, thanks for having me. I mean, we could be having these conversations, not in a podcast format, could be always have. So this is so cool to be doing this, and so inspiring and such a important role in that space that doesn't often get fed anything gets fed too much, and not much of it is meaningful or helpful in any way, shape or form. So thanks for doing what you're doing always, and being such a supporter and dear friend of mine and mentor and for having me
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Well, Tommy, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. So to start off, why don't you share with us what you think some challenges that sports parents face today,
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I think speaking to the parent side, not only as a parent, but someone who's had parents in programs at various levels, whether it's been, you know, division one or division three college, all the way down to, you know, eight and under, hockey and coaching at those levels in different places and both genders and all of it.
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I think I work with parents in these hockey associations, or the parents in our own program.
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I think what, what challenges parents a lot is that it's a, it's a oftentimes, just a recipe for disaster, just by nature of the way things are. So they love their kids big time. All of a sudden things get competitive, right? You're trying to make teams or play well or win games or do whatever it is. So you've got this competitive piece of the puzzle and these result oriented games. And then, not only those other kids, but I don't think as parents, we often always understand the level of attachment that we have to what our kids do or what they accomplish or don't accomplish.
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We don't do a lot of reflecting on that until we actually get into the space and stuff starts happening. And so I think you've got that love, you've got a little bit of that, that subconscious, unintentional attachment, and then, and then you have just intense emotional gains as well, right? I mean, in hockey, these people, nobody wakes up, I tell parents all the time on a Saturday morning and walks into a freezing cold arena and says, I'm going to make a fool out of myself. Make this more difficult for my kid and my kids coach, and make it uncomfortable and uneducational for everybody around me, but we see it on a week to week basis, right? Because we have no we have that love, we have that attachment. It's competitive, but also, parents don't have much training or developed tools in any way, shape or form and how to be a good and helpful Sports Parent, right? They just love their kids, and they show up, and then whatever happens, happens, and it oftentimes, you know, gets, gets way out of hand. At worst, I mean, at best, that's maybe neutral or not helpful, right? And so what we try to do, both in our college program and also with the youth programs that we work with, is, first of all, help our parents understand and do some reflecting in conversation on what the hell are we doing here in the first place, right? Like, what's this all about? Why are we here? Why are these kids here? And very rarely, when they when they actually start playing with that reasoning a little bit and verbalizing it and sharing it, do they ever wind up at like, you know, I want the next, you know, center on the first line and running the power play for the New York Rangers, right?
00:04:16.939 --> 00:06:09.379
We don't, they don't get there, right? I'm not trying to get my kid to be top 50 on the ATP or WTA Tour. It's they have fun, and they're with their friends, and they grow and they learn, and it's teamwork, and it's discipline, and it's time management. It's whatever we could talk all day about what they think they want to get out of it, right? But it's not the wild, crazy stuff, right? So then, then the next thing you know, sort of philosophically and from the more academic side that I work on is telling like the research is pretty conclusive. If you don't do those things intentionally, it's not very likely that you're going to get them so we've got to get you going parent on a path that has you operating and showing up and modeling in the same direction as what you want your kids to learn and what you want to get out of this experience. So how do we actually do that? Well, the first is model the behaviors that you're hoping for in your in your kids, right? The number one thing they're going to do and how they're going to learn is what they see you do in these situations, if you rip a coach, if you make excuses, if you go after a 15 year old rep on a Sunday morning at eight o'clock was making $4 an hour because they missed an outside by, you know, six tenths of a Bucha millimeter, right? That's what you're going to give the kids permission to do, right? If we want this to be a part of their education, if we want this to be a part of their character development and their moral functioning. If we want it to be fun, if we want it to be a place where they learn values and they build relationships right, and they grow as people, then we've got to be doing things as parents to do that. And I think what handicaps that a lot of times, is parents don't feel like they have much agency from the coaches or the association or that it's drop them off, pay the bills, you know, if the kid has a problem, send them to me, right? And that's it, you know.
00:06:06.500 --> 00:06:23.209
And so parents get frustrated because they've got the love and the attachments. They think they know what they want, but then they don't feel like they have a lot of agency. And so it all comes out, you know, in the car ride home, right? And that's about it. And so we try to tell parents, we need you to model.
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We need you on our team. You're welcome. You're a part of the team, you're a part of the association, you're a part of this process. We don't need you to tell them to bend their knees and follow through. We don't need you to tell them where to stand on the power play or where to hit their serves or their volleys right? We need you to focus as little as possible on the results and help steer the conversation the direction of what is the kid getting out of it? Are they living out values that are that are related to things that are within our control? Are they being great teammates? Are they giving their best? Are they choosing to be positive? Are they demonstrating respect and sportsmanship? And if not, what's getting in the way of that, rather than the first question that everybody asks when your kid gets in the car is, did you win, and how many goals did you score? And, you know, so on and so forth.
00:07:10.250 --> 00:07:43.009
And so I think just trying to help parents, big picture, have a really clear sense of what they want to get out of this, and what their kids want to get out of this. And then, you know, day to day operations give them some agency and some tools and some clarity with what to do to go in that direction that they know we all want the big picture. Because if you're not clear about that direction, you're not doing things to get there. That's when we see all the garbage and the challenges that we see with parents at every level.
00:07:43.519 --> 00:08:16.730
That's right, that's so true. Think that once they identify the path that they want to see their child go down, that path being a path towards health, happiness. You know, all of these great values that sport provides to a child. Yes, exactly so, what would be these tools? What would be the tools that can help them to get to that, how to support my child,
00:08:18.420 --> 00:08:39.019
I think, continuing to reflect on what you're doing there in the first place. I just think that continual reflection is so important from there, it varies a little bit based on the environment and how much choice people have over the environment that the kid goes into. I think that's a huge tool for parents.
00:08:35.240 --> 00:10:31.220
Is is trying to do some homework on the front end as much as they can, and try to get a sense of does what's going on in this in this outfit, in this organization, does it match, or does it have the potential to match with the values that are most important to us? And then I would say from there if, if, if, what you see is that the value that's most important to any operation, whether it's a UA, you know, hockey team or soccer club, or whatever it is, or it's a college tennis program or anything in between. If the number one thing that they're setting out to do is win, I would say, run in the other direction, that would be another important tool, because so much of it relies on what's within our control and what's outside of our control, and helping parents really dig deep and get a firm grasp of where what they're in, which of those categories does what they're looking for live and be really clear about that, and then just put your entire focus on the things In terms of how you parent your kid in sport, on the things that are within their control. And I think a lot of times parents will hear that and think, Wow, this coach is just softer. This coach, it's just all we're going to give everybody a medal. And I don't want my kid to be a part of that type of atmosphere, because they're never going to learn anything, and they're never going to be tough enough, and they're never going to blah, blah, blah, and I think that's just a grave misunderstanding that then seeps into a lot of missed opportunities for parents, just because you have a dedicated focus on things like your best effort and choosing to have a positive attitude and always being respectful and having great sportsmanship no matter what the circumstances, those things aren't automatic.
00:10:32.240 --> 00:11:56.919
They don't come easily. They're not learned easily and they're not acted on easily in the youth or scholastic sports space. They take a lot of dedication to learn and to live out, and it's a constant journey, and it's a constant process, and you don't always meet the standard. I think, you know, I've been on teams as a player. I've certainly been a part of teams as a coach. I had the good fortune of being on teams with with you, and working with you where there were plenty of times where we met the objective results, and in terms of the objective, uncontrollable result, like winning and losing, we were we were successful. And in some of those times, we didn't live out the values that were most important to us. And it was very clear that we weren't successful at the highest standard. And I think having a program or coaches or leaders and captains and however the environment has shaped other parents, stakeholders and administrators that understand that is so crucial for parents, and then I think that's really what helps parents get a real sense of what their definition of success looks like for themselves and for their kids, and then really moving into that direction, I think that's what gives parents the most agency, but that also is the is the space where there's the room for most transferability, right?
00:11:56.919 --> 00:12:58.000
Like, if you can learn how to give your best and be positive and be respectful and be resilient and care about others and be a part of a group. If you can learn those things that are controllable in the context of playing whatever dumb game we're playing, which is just really ultimately, a bunch of made up obstacles, right? If you can learn and practice those things in those contexts. Well, then maybe when you really need to be able to do those things and live them out in life, when it matters, you're you're training for that, and that's ultimately what, what, what, hopefully, the best of sport can do for us in terms of being a part of our education. If that can happen, then we're doing something right, winning and losing. I mean, you've won a ton. You won more than anybody that that I know, right? I mean, does that make your life that much different right now, as a player or as a coach? No. I mean, it's what you've done in the process, and you've learned in the process and who you've become in the process, for sure, right?
00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:00.899
The winning and the losing, that doesn't change much at all?
00:13:01.379 --> 00:14:22.080
Yeah, yeah. It's, it's so true. I mean, one of the things when I retired from coaching and to and still, now, a couple years later, the number one question I get is, do you miss it? And I'm like, do I do I miss? What do I miss? What? So I'll tell you what I miss. I miss the relationships. I miss being able to see my players every day. I miss being able to mold them from the time that they get on campus till the time that they need into positive, productive adults that have goals, that have confidence and are ready to don't be independent members of society and successful. And I mean, gosh, some of the things that my players have gone on to do, or it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable how successful they are. And I feel like I have, you know, a little bit of hand. Do I miss the roller coaster that is associated with playing in the national championship or making it to the postseason or playing against a rival, or having to play back to back matches against top 10 opponents. No, I don't miss any about that's not everything that coaching is about. To me. It's not what sport is about. Sports about everything that happens in between
00:14:22.529 --> 00:16:10.559
Yeah, well, and I think, right, I think that as you talk about what, what parents can do and how they can see this thing, I think that all of the challenges that you just described, and stuff that you don't miss as much, those things are all the necessary parts of it, because that creates the space where the things that you really miss happen, right? And so you need that. You need the challenges. You need the difficulty. You need these areas where these super high achieving kids don't get it perfect and don't get it right all the time, so you have room for that growth, right? You need all that stuff. I think where parents get struggle is they don't see those spaces in those times as the context or the space in which the real work happens, right the part of the equation that you need. But it's not the most important part. They see it as the most important part we have to prove. We have to prove how good our kid is. Our kid has to prove how good they are. We've got this opponent. We've got to be better than them, so that we prove to everybody, we prove ourselves. I think there's so much proving, and there's so much should in, and there's so much needing when it comes to all these things that are outside of our control, rather than an appreciation for the challenges and the twists and the turns that those situations put us in, so that we can do the real work that you just that you just described because, because I think there's really the meaningful part about sport is not that it teaches automatic lessons, because it doesn't you learn what you get taught. I mean, we could do hours of this, and I could tell you the stuff that I was a part of and saw and did an experience playing hockey in the 90s in Minnesota, super competitively, right? Like that.
00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:31.470
What I was taking out of that was not the stuff my parents hoped 13 year old me was getting when they dropped me off at the rink, right? So you don't just throw the balls or the trucks or the or whatever out there and let them play, and it just happens, right? You have to get taught, but it's also we're not learning these things going on.
00:16:26.879 --> 00:17:04.289
So, right? Like it's not just that, either. It's the environment that I think can be this really meaningful, magical context, where you get in these situations and you face these obstacles and these challenges, and it's this really series of golden opportunities to learn and live out these values, if we choose to see it that way, if we choose to see it as we gotta prove and we've invested this much money in these lessons, and so, oh my gosh, this better pay off with a scholarship, or it Better pay off with another thing that's result based.
00:16:59.970 --> 00:17:22.650
That's when it gets really dangerous. And I think that's for us as coaches too. That's when you start to feel like, what are, what are we doing here? I don't, I don't love this right? Because now I've got some level of attachment to how this game or this this match or this season comes out right, rather than it being, you know what?
00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:30.269
How can this group and these kids learn and grow and live out these values no matter how this thing turns out? That's right.
00:17:30.599 --> 00:18:03.839
So and I think for coaches that we're constantly having to come back to that over and over again, because you're always dealing with those two areas, right, the learning and the growing and the developing and the relationships and at the same time, like the object of the game is to win, and so you're always trying to, you know, balance those things. I think if we always keep them like this right, with the important stuff more important, but holding intention, that the other stuff is there, and that's also what we're trying to do. I think that's what you and the best coaches get right.
00:18:04.049 --> 00:18:28.140
Transferring that to parents is is a whole nother challenge, but the more we can cut them in and let them in on the process. And this is what we're doing, and this is why we're doing it, and this is how we do it, and we need you to help us do it. When you get in the car, or you get on the road afterwards, or you come to a college tennis match, and you go out to the Cheesecake Factory afterwards, right? And you're having that conversation.
00:18:28.380 --> 00:19:01.200
Have it under the umbrella that we're we're building here. Have it in line with our culture, right? As opposed to, because you believe in it, you've chosen it, right and right, as opposed to, well, now we get outside the circle of the team right for us, it's the ride home from the rink up here, right? It's what happens after and outside that environment. And then it's as soon as mom or dad do a 180 from the from culture there, if the culture's value is based right, as soon as moms or dad do a 180 we just take like, nine steps backwards.
00:19:01.259 --> 00:19:16.319
That's right, that's right. That's so true. I love that you mentioned the car ride home. The car ride home is that one space that I'm always saying to parents, there's only five words that you should say. Have you seen that TED talk?
00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:18.809
I love I don't know. I hope it's I love watching you play.
00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:45.569
Yeah, I love watching you play. Like, I mean, that's it. That's it. When Billie Jean King dressed the Emory athletes a few years ago, she shared with the athletes, and I heard a reiterate this on the podcast recently, but she shared that when she came home from tennis, her parents never asked, never once the question they they asked was, did you have fun? Or what do you want for dinner? You know, that's it.
00:19:46.500 --> 00:19:54.690
And so I think that's one of the simplest tools that parents can can start with. I love that you mentioned the reflection piece.
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I mean, I think it's really important to continue to check in with yourself, check in with your partner, check in with anyone else that is involved in your child's sports engagement, and check in with them. Make sure you're all on the same page and about what their family values are, and how are we expressing that to our child? I think something else that would be helpful for parents too is if they had an understanding of what the team expectations are.
00:20:22.740 --> 00:20:36.029
And a lot of times, coaches don't necessarily formalize what those expectations are. Of course, you got to be on time.
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Of course, you got to show up for games, you know, of course.
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But like, it's not always so obvious, right? And, and, and there's a lot of gray area for families. You know, well, you have a vacation plan. Does my child have to be there for this, this match like, what? What does that mean? What are the repercussions if he doesn't? And all of that can be clearly articulated in some team expectations, even if they're simple and concise expectations, you can still refer back to them. One of the things that I always impress on coaches is, let's list out what are your expectations. Let's hang it from the locker room on the lockers.
00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:47.579
Let's make sure that the student athletes know what the expectations are. Let's make sure the parents know what the expectations are, because otherwise, parents see a snapshot of what's happening, or they get a Bryant to call home, or a kid gets in the car and they've got tears on their face and Well, what happened? They if they can, then go back to well, here are the team expectations, and it looks like you're not meeting them. If they can get on board with what's going on and what makes this team successful, and all of that stuff that's not related to the winning, right?
00:21:44.069 --> 00:21:47.579
It's not related to the outcome.
00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:54.210
It's related to the process. If they can get on board with what that entails, then we can really make an impact.
00:21:54.660 --> 00:22:11.250
Yeah, I think we want parents in on on our culture, right? That that our values in our in our process come first, and that's the highest standard of success, right? And so, like, we can be successful and lose, and we can be unsuccessful and win, right?
00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:19.440
And we want parents to get that understanding right, and then that hopefully impacts how that car ride home goes, right. So, so I love watching you play.
00:22:19.440 --> 00:23:20.400
That's the first thing out of their mouth. We try to also get them to also get them to ask questions that have to do with their effort and their attitude and their respect, before the questions are about the results, right? And then we try to get them to react as unemotionally as they can when it comes to results, right? Because a lot of times I think, well, if we're not, as a parent, going to lose our mind when, when they lose, then we're doing great. But then they get in the car and we lose our minds in a positive way when they win, right, which sends the same exact message, right, that the result is the most important thing and the thing that matters most. So it's in what we say and what we don't say. But all of that is so much easier to do as parents and stakeholders if we have a clear sense of the philosophy and the behaviors that extend from that philosophy, if we know that going in, right? I mean, asking parents to get on board with that without having them get a clear understanding of philosophically what we're doing in the first place, that's like asking you to train all year and then go play the national championship left handed, right?
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I mean, it makes no sense we wouldn't do that to our to our athletes, right? So we can't expect that we can do that to our other stakeholders as well.
00:23:28.589 --> 00:23:48.809
And so that's, I think, that conversation and training piece is so, so important in everything from the philosophy to how we're going to approach success to what our values are and how we want to live them out. And that extends to, I mean, I just, you know, both in terms of my coaching, but also in terms of my academic work.
00:23:48.869 --> 00:24:00.750
It's all centered around building a culture that teaches values and creates the space to be great at the thing you're doing, both at the same time.
00:23:55.710 --> 00:25:08.220
And I think those expectations are so important to be clear about, but also to be tied to the culture so that people stop this low level behavior of being accountable to just the person in charge, right? Like you know this, like you, when you have great teams, you don't want your players to be accountable to whatever Coach B says. That's not how it works. That might get us, that might get beyond freshmen, you know, our first year going for a couple weeks, right? But after that, it's they have to be accountable to each other, and they have to be accountable to the culture, because this is ours, right? And we don't often do that, mostly because of all the pay for play stuff and the youth sports space, and hey, if somebody doesn't like it, they'll just go to club x, or they'll go y, right? Or they'll leave. So there's less investment in the in the group, right? And in the group culture. And so I think that's where we lose a lot of this. But ultimately, if we're going to get it done, that's, that's the key, I think, because of the way it gets, that you just, you don't like the way it's going, so you leave, right?
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:19.650
It's such a I mean, granted, he's not dissimilar to what's going on in college sports right now, right where? Where this line is so blurred between.
00:25:16.589 --> 00:26:12.690
Don't want people staying in situations that are toxic. But also we just allow people now to push the eject button so early that we don't create the the environment for any of the things that we're trying to teach to actually develop. So I don't want to make it sound like it's absolute, right, that you got to stay in the first place you go to, and it's got to be that way forever, especially in the youth sports space. But, you know, I think people, like I said, people hit that eject button so quickly that they don't see those expectations that you talked about that are so crucial on time. What can we miss? What, you know, just the basic stuff. They don't see that as part of the culture. They just see that as being accountable to the person who's ever in charge. And that's, that's, there's no that reasoning doesn't stick for doing it well and doing it effectively and believing right?
00:26:09.690 --> 00:26:18.359
The reasoning that sticks for doing it well and doing effectively and believing in it is, this is who we are, right?
00:26:14.789 --> 00:26:52.049
Like, if I don't go to practice six days in a row, then I want to play on the seventh day, right? Well, that could be I pissed the coach off, but what really makes that meaningful is, listen, one of our core values is that we give our best effort, right? And now this is what we do, and I this is not a way for me to give my best effort, right? One of our core principles is we operate on respect right now. I've not respected my teammates, I've not respected my coaches. I've not respected the process that we're going through, right and now I'm just going to show up and play.
00:26:52.170 --> 00:26:57.960
That's a whole lot different than I can I can get over, you know, Coach X or coach y being a little frustrated, right?
00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:02.009
Especially if they're, you know, not a professional coach, right?
00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:36.299
That they have a day job, and then they're showing up to coach this thing later on, right? And whatever it's but, but if it's, if it's I'm not my actions are not in line with these expectations, that are not in line with our culture and who we are, then we've got then we've got challenges, and I think we can do a better job, especially in the youth sports space, college and we get older, and it's a little more baked into the pie there, if you're running your college program, well, I think, but in the youth sports space, we've got to make it about our culture, right? And then I think there's more grace involved there as well, right?
00:27:32.970 --> 00:27:54.269
Like our culture is about these values. You're going on a family vacation that was planned a year ago, and now you all of a sudden made this team as the last person on the quadruple a team, right? If this is about our culture, then you're probably going on that trip. If this is about I'm going to piss off Coach Jones, then we're in some tough water there.
00:27:54.599 --> 00:28:16.740
Yeah, interesting, fascinating. I love, I love how you frame that with being accountable to the team, that's brilliant. Unfortunately, that's all we have time for today. But we have another great episode with Tommy plan to drop soon, and he'll share some more insights about team values, culture and lots of other Great stuff. You really won't want to miss it.
