Community Coalitions: A Conversation with Chioma Nnaji

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Welcome to Partnership Work, where we explore what it takes to reach across
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the walls that divide us and get people working together to improve our world. I'm Paul Kuttner.
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On today's episode, we're taking a dive into the world of community coalitions.
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When it comes to tackling the big issues, individual community organizations can only do so much.
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So, like the X-Men or the Avengers, they team up, combine their powers.
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These days, coalitions are a common feature of the social change landscape.
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But they are a lot more complicated than they look on paper.
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They can be fragile things, quick to fall apart over distrust,
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competition, and power struggles.
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My guest today knows all about building and maintaining coalitions.
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Chioma Nnaji has spent over two decades organizing and supporting community
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coalitions in public health.
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In our conversation, Chioma talks about how her childhood helped mold her into
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a consummate community builder and how she found herself quite unexpectedly working in HIV and AIDS.
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We discuss her approach to organizing across African diaspora communities rooted
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in a shared African identity.
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Chioma shares some of the lessons she's learned about how to bring coalition
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members to the table, how to develop shared language, how to help people step
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into their power, and how to maintain a coalition over the years or even decades
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it takes to see real change.
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Chioma lives in the Boston area, so she was able to join me here in the studio at Urban Media Arts.
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We had a lot of fun and more than a few laughs, so I hope you enjoy it as well. Let's get to it.
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Today, I am joined in the studio by Chioma Enagi.
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Chioma is an organizer and community health worker who for over two decades
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has been working with African diaspora communities on issues around public health,
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racial justice, and immigrant rights.
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She is Senior Program Director for the Multicultural AIDS Coalition in Boston,
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where she founded and directs the Africans for Improved Access Program.
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Recently, Chioma helped launch the African Immigrant Health Research Consortium.
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I had the honor of attending their first summit this past year,
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Africanizing the research paradigm, which was honestly one of the most energizing
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events I've been to in quite a while.
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Chioma has a background in theater. She sits on a bunch of boards and a whole
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lot of other things that I don't have time to list.
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I will link to her full bio in the show notes. So Chioma, thanks so much for joining me today.
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Thank you for having me, Paul. I always enjoy intros because I'm like,
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oh, yeah, OK. Yeah, that's me.
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Did I really do that? Okay. So I always enjoy how people introduce me. So thank you.
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No, thank you. So I'm starting out all the episodes with the same question.
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And since you've been involved in so many things, I'm super curious how you're
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going to answer it. Okay.
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So when you are at a family event or a party and someone asks you,
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Hey, what do you do? What do you say?
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Oh, that's a big, I don't know. I mean, oh, wow.
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So I started off and I still do HIV AIDS work, right?
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So I feel like it was easy for me to answer that question because I used to
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say, oh, you know, depending on who I'm talking to, I'll say sexual health, HIV.
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And now I find myself saying like public health because I'm across so many different things.
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But, you know, I don't know. I mean, I and then if people like want to dig deeper,
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I might go into particular aspects of my work.
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I think what I find interesting is that when I say public health,
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it's more understood at this point because of COVID-19, right?
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Like COVID-19 brought a lot of awareness to the general population about what
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is public health, right?
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And so I think now I feel comfortable saying public health.
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But probably maybe 15 years ago, definitely the first thing out of my mouth
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wouldn't have been public health. It would have been sexual health, HIV.
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Or, you know, I work with communities.
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Maybe tell me
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A bit about how you ended up in public health in the hiv field oh i fell.
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Into it like never expected to be in public health right never expected to be
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here working in the united states um i was at uh i was i finished my bachelor's
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degree at Florida A&M university
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and that was in health care management right and my father chose my my degree
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okay my father chose my degree.
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So he was, I was like, oh, daddy, I want to do a healthcare.
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And he was like, you definitely are not the doctor.
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He was like, okay, I have somebody who runs a program around healthcare management.
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Let's put you in there. Right. So I did healthcare management.
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I worked for the government of Florida, really focusing on Medicaid, Medicare for two years.
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And it was like hard two years, right?
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Because I was sitting there making decisions about people's lives,
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looking at budgets and looking at numbers, right?
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Not really understanding why people are in their certain position or why people
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couldn't cover their bills or whatever, right?
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And I didn't feel good about it. So I was like, this healthcare management thing is not for me.
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Um, so then, uh, long story short, um, I came, I had a, uh, partner at that
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time who graduated and came, was going to New York.
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Um, and so he was like, uh, yeah, you need to figure out cause you're not staying
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here with your daddy in Florida.
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You need to figure out what you're going to do.
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So I was like, okay, I guess I'll be going up, going up North.
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Um, and so I had a cousin who was doing a master's in public health, right. And an MD.
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And so that's how I ended up in the area of public health and came to BU and did my MPH.
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And then while I was finishing up my thesis for my public health,
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I just wanted to do volunteer work.
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Because in my mind, I was about to move to West Africa somewhere and do work with NGOs.
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And I found a volunteer opportunity at the Multicultural Studies Coalition,
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working with the population, the communities I wanted to work with,
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really doing the organizing work that I wanted to do.
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And so I've been there for 24 years.
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Yeah.
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That's a long time to be in one organization. That's true.
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I can say I'm one of the longest. Myself and the executive director have been the longest. Yeah.
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So, yeah. So special. One thing I know when I look at what you've done through
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the Multicultural Aids Coalition elsewhere is a lot of your work being with
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coalitions and large collectives.
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Why are coalitions important for the kind of work you do? Yeah.
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And maybe what were some of your first experiences with coalitions?
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Yeah, yeah. I actually started off in the public health field as coordinating a coalition, right?
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And so it was a coalition focused on HIV, AIDS, and African immigrants.
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Um, and one thing that I realized when you're working with coalition,
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these are community coalitions, right?
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We can have all different types of coalitions led by different,
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uh, individuals and organizations, but particularly, you know,
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I've been a part of community coalitions.
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And so one thing that I've realized that's critically important when you're
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working with community coalitions is knowing when to step back, right?
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Knowing when to be the fly on the wall and let what needs to happen in the room
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happen, right? Or what needs to happen in community happen.
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And sometimes that's hard, especially if you're with an organization and organizations
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come with certain maybe parameters because of funding or maybe because they're
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the backbone organization, they have a certain agenda.
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But if you're serious about doing equity work, if you're serious about doing
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community health work, it's important that when you're running coalitions, to
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Be able to
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Step back and say, the community knows what the community needs.
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And not only do they know what they need, they have the solutions to address
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whatever challenges they're dealing with, right?
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And most times, nine out of 10, the issue isn't the solution, having the solution.
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The issue is having the resources and the access to power and privilege to be
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able to implement what needs to happen.
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Yeah. So say a bit more what you mean, like how you define a community coalition.
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So for me, a community coalition is when the majority of people around the table
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Identify with the issue and represent the individuals who are being mostly impacted.
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Right. And so you could have coalitions like the coalition that I actually started
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with was a coalition of African immigrants living with HIV, African leaders
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and community-based organizations.
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The Massachusetts Department of Public Health was represented on the coalition,
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we had health care providers on the coalition, researchers on the coalition.
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The core of the members were individuals who were most impacted,
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either impacted in terms of their living with HIV or impacted in terms that
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they had family members and friends who were living with HIV, right?
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Most of them were African immigrants. And so when you have a coalition like
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that, then you're very clear and you're very centered around community needs, right?
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Sometimes when you have a coalition that is talking about community needs and
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you have one or two community people who are represented on the coalition, the focus gets lost.
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The agenda becomes somebody else's
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agenda. And oftentimes the voices of communities get dissipated, right?
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Because there's only two of them at the table, right?
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Out of a coalition, maybe of a membership of 20, right?
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And so it's critically important when you're talking about community coalitions
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that that coalition reflects the community that you're actually wanting to have a positive impact on.
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What were some of the first, you know, coming into that as a young public health
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professional, what were some of the first things that you had to learn about
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how to do coalition work?
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I had to unlearn all the stuff I learned in my master's program.
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That was the first thing.
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That was the first thing. All the stuff, all the theories, all the ways in which
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programs should be developed, I had to unlearn that.
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Right. And not saying that it's not important, but walking into community,
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you have to really let go of whatever you think you know.
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And so I had to learn all that. And I unlearned that quickly because I was around
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folks who were quickly, who did not mind telling me.
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And even sort of my mentor in the work, Rosette Serwanga, you know, she was very clear.
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She was very grounded in what does it mean to do community organizing work.
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And she was very clear about creating space for community to define the solutions
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and the challenges and understanding challenges.
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And so that was the first thing, unlearn what you learned in your master's degree.
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And then, like I said, the second thing is knowing when to step back.
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But then also what was important in the work and what I continue to sort of
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learn and grow in is how are you transparent. right?
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So you mentioned the collaborative, the African Immigrant Health Collaborative
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that started. We started about five years ago, right?
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And one of the things I had to learn as being one of the founding members,
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but also my organization being the backbone of that collaborative is being transparent
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with partners around the table, right?
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Folks are okay if you say, hey, look,
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because we're the backbone organization we need 15
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of all budget to come to us to support the
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administrative work folks are okay with that when you tell them
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the reason why right the problem comes when you're
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like oh yeah so the budget um yeah oh so
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can we talk about that the next meeting oh oh no so I didn't bring the paper
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for the budget oh oh no oh did this meeting I meant next you know what I'm saying
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right yeah and so transparency is important right um transfer transparency also
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for me was It's about understanding my positionality in the work.
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And I had to learn that early on when I was doing, you know,
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when I started in 2000, 2000 when I started.
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Right. Like I had to understand my own positionality.
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Yes, I have a lot of similarities as it relates to African immigrant communities.
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And I also have a lot of differences. Similarities. My father's Nigerian.
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Um i was brought up in nigerian culture
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as well as african-american u.s of black folks born here in the u.s that history
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that rich history and culture um and i also had to realize that when even especially
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now today the political environment the social environment that what does it
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mean for me to walk around talk about immigrant rights as someone who holds a u.s passport
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You know what I'm saying? Like, and so even doing the work, you know,
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recognizing sort of my position in that and recognizing that I have a certain
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level of privilege and power because English is my first language, because I have a U.S.
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Passport, I could say I was born here in the U.S., you know,
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because I don't have an accent, right?
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Because I can run my mouth off and nobody's going to tell me to go back to my country, right? Right.
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Like I have a certain level of privilege that I can use for good,
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but I also need to know how what that privilege can create in terms of tension
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with the communities I work with. Right. And so I have to constantly be intentional about that.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So when you were first learning how to do this work, do you remember like any
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big mistakes that you made that they that you learned quickly?
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Like, were there any big mistakes that you remember learning from in those early days?
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Oh, big mistakes. I got one.
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I was doing similar to what's going on now, right? Like there's a lot of know
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your rights trainings that are happening, right?
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So at this point I had, I was already doing a lot of coalition work.
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And so I thought I had sort of the people there that would come,
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right? Like that would be a part of it.
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So it was a know your rights training that I was partnering with,
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with a local organization. I'm not going to mention the name, a local organization.
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And so we had the date we had the time it was happening on a Saturday not during
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the week because people were working like I thought I had it all figured out
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right we had food coming it was going to be rice and chicken it was going to
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be cheese and crackers put that on the flyer like I was like I'm in it like
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I know what I'm doing because I've been doing this coalition work for a minute
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come 10 o'clock nobody was there come 10.05 nobody was there come 10.30 I was
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like no problem Africans are typically late they'll come come 11 o'clock nobody showed up Right.
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And so I had to really sit down and say, OK, why isn't anybody here?
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Like I told the coalition, I emailed them.
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I emailed them.
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And so that was my aha moment. Maybe that sort of helped me figure out what
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does it mean in terms of building relationships in this work and the power of relationships.
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And I sort of knew that because I'm running a coalition.
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I had everybody's phone numbers, up to 50 people in this coalition.
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I knew everybody's you know phone numbers was able
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to call people but emailing is not enough
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right dropping off flyers is not enough what
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I learned and what I had to understand is making phone
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calls having that personal connection building off of the relationships that
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you have so that people will know okay this is something that I can do the other
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thing that I realized is that concepts don't are not always transferable across
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cultures right like this idea of know your rights,
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right, was not sort of fully a full understood concept.
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I don't mean in terms of education and stupidity.
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I mean, in terms of like cultural concepts around know your rights,
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right? Like you won't see a know your rights training on the continent, right?
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And so really understanding how do you take what maybe is a concept happening here in the U.S.
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And really unpack it so that communities that need the information will know
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what's going to happen at those events or whatever. But yeah,
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I mean, you know, it's a core of my understanding and doing this work is the
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power of relationships.
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Like you have to focus on that relationship. Right.
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And that means you might be going to a couple of baby showers.
00:16:59.305 --> 00:17:00.625
You might be going to a couple of weddings.
00:17:01.245 --> 00:17:04.465
Right. That means maybe you'll be going to an after party.
00:17:04.685 --> 00:17:10.365
Right. Like, like people need to see that you're committed to them in their community.
00:17:10.985 --> 00:17:15.905
And it's not just about, in our case, you know, getting people tested for HIV,
00:17:16.265 --> 00:17:18.685
right? Folks need to see it's more than that for you.
00:17:20.080 --> 00:17:26.160

00:17:26.325 --> 00:17:31.965
You clearly are a connector and community builder. Where do you think that comes from?
00:17:32.105 --> 00:17:35.885
Like, is that something that started off early in your life?
00:17:35.885 --> 00:17:39.725
Is that something you learned as a child? Like, where does this,
00:17:39.845 --> 00:17:45.805
the skills and the aptitude or just your tendency to want to bring people together?
00:17:45.805 --> 00:17:47.205
Where do you feel like that started?
00:17:48.040 --> 00:17:52.940
That's a good question. I mean, I know that in my childhood and growing up,
00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:56.540
like my mother and father were very much community oriented, right?
00:17:56.820 --> 00:18:02.400
Like to the point that it like, I hated it because they knew all my teachers.
00:18:02.900 --> 00:18:05.900
Like my mom was best friends with my principal at my high school.
00:18:06.080 --> 00:18:08.100
Like to the point that I was like, okay, this is done.
00:18:08.340 --> 00:18:14.940
My father was new, knew everybody across campus, you know? So the dean of my
00:18:14.940 --> 00:18:19.220
program knew my father very well. Okay. So it was like, ugh.
00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:24.380
Right. And so I always grew up knowing the importance of community and grounding
00:18:24.380 --> 00:18:26.660
yourself in community and doing community work.
00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:33.160
And doing community work in a way in which you're giving what you can give.
00:18:33.320 --> 00:18:35.660
Right. And you're not looking for anything in return.
00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:40.500
So I was always, of course, growing up, you don't understand that until you
00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:44.280
get older and you sort of see. because you're like, we have to go to another
00:18:44.280 --> 00:18:46.220
event? Like, really, mom?
00:18:46.620 --> 00:18:49.380
You know, or why are we always in Girl Scouts, right?
00:18:49.540 --> 00:18:53.560
But being able to understand the meaning of that later on in my life,
00:18:53.580 --> 00:18:55.120
I think was critical to me.
00:18:56.380 --> 00:18:58.860
Figuring out what I want, I had to figure it out. Like I told you,
00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:03.320
I was working at government, doing healthcare, managing programs,
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:05.480
Medicare and Medicaid programs.
00:19:05.700 --> 00:19:09.820
So it was not something that was intuitive, but I figured out like,
00:19:09.940 --> 00:19:11.440
where was my happy place?
00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:18.040
Along my journey and where I could really lend my skills and my knowledge and
00:19:18.040 --> 00:19:21.980
my willingness to grow and learn where that would, you know, the best place for that.
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.680
And I really enjoy, you know, like you said, I love partnership work.
00:19:25.840 --> 00:19:31.220
I think in this time that we're in right now, partnerships are going to be the answer.
00:19:32.179 --> 00:19:37.399
They really are going to be the answer. Multi-sector partnerships centered on community.
00:19:38.179 --> 00:19:40.379
I would even say led by community.
00:19:41.379 --> 00:19:44.919
That's what's going to be the answer to get us out of where we are right now,
00:19:45.019 --> 00:19:49.439
to sustain us as a greater community, a global community.
00:19:49.959 --> 00:19:52.619
That's where we're going to have to lean into.
00:19:53.399 --> 00:19:55.979
Amen. So you talk about multi-sector partnership.
00:19:56.239 --> 00:19:56.419
Yeah.
00:19:57.459 --> 00:20:00.099
Do you have an example of some of the work you've done there?
00:20:00.099 --> 00:20:04.939
And I'm particularly interested in sort of talking through how did you bring
00:20:04.939 --> 00:20:06.779
those people to the table to the
00:20:06.779 --> 00:20:10.319
point where they're really able to both collaborate and center community?
00:20:10.979 --> 00:20:16.999
Yeah, so I can use an example of it's not really in the HIV space.
00:20:16.999 --> 00:20:21.579
It's more in my work in doing collective impact work.
00:20:22.339 --> 00:20:27.679
And that's particularly with sort of my business, Ultra Transformations,
00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:31.479
where I actually facilitate partnership development, ways in which you level
00:20:31.479 --> 00:20:33.859
partnerships to have greater impact, right?
00:20:34.499 --> 00:20:39.559
And so one of the partnerships that I've been working with, I was working with,
00:20:39.739 --> 00:20:43.559
is a partnership that was focused on economic mobility, right?
00:20:44.059 --> 00:20:49.899
For a particular sector of the community that was being most impacted, right? Right.
00:20:50.639 --> 00:20:55.779
Black mothers. Right. Who might be the only breadwinners in their family.
00:20:55.899 --> 00:20:58.359
Right. The only ones making money in their family.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:01.259
The head of household. Right. Head of households.
00:21:02.019 --> 00:21:10.399
And so what we ended up doing is I was brought in to create the partnership
00:21:10.399 --> 00:21:15.819
sort of the partnership being able to focus on a common agenda and figuring
00:21:15.819 --> 00:21:18.059
out solutions to the problem.
00:21:18.059 --> 00:21:23.039
And then collectively deciding like what's the next step around that, right?
00:21:23.679 --> 00:21:28.659
And what was interesting is that this partnership was actually being led by a foundation.
00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:33.779
And so they brought in business owners,
00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:42.119
black mothers, employers and trainers, universities in that area,
00:21:42.899 --> 00:21:45.639
folks who focus on career development, right?
00:21:46.379 --> 00:21:52.899
So the one thing I realized quickly was that everybody had a different understanding
00:21:52.899 --> 00:21:55.599
of economic mobility, right?
00:21:55.719 --> 00:21:59.359
Like that was something I realized quickly in having conversations with different partners.
00:21:59.619 --> 00:22:01.819
And so I always find that
00:22:03.003 --> 00:22:08.483
Starting a partnership with shared language is critically important,
00:22:08.803 --> 00:22:08.983
Right?
00:22:09.343 --> 00:22:12.223
It doesn't matter. And it doesn't even matter how long y'all been together, right?
00:22:12.443 --> 00:22:17.223
Like even in the African partnership that I'm a part of, like we're always sort
00:22:17.223 --> 00:22:20.943
of being clear on our language, right? And what we mean.
00:22:21.163 --> 00:22:24.863
And so with that partnership, it's clearly important that we start with shared language.
00:22:25.123 --> 00:22:29.883
So we literally had conversations around, so what is economic mobility to you?
00:22:30.083 --> 00:22:34.823
What is economic mobility to you? So, of course, right, you got the business
00:22:34.823 --> 00:22:40.623
people in the university, the educational programs talking about,
00:22:41.103 --> 00:22:42.623
Oh, we have to do more training.
00:22:43.063 --> 00:22:48.983
Oh, we have to, you know, make sure that mothers have the skills and knowledge that they need, right?
00:22:49.423 --> 00:22:54.723
And the mothers are saying, no, I just need you to have child care so that I
00:22:54.723 --> 00:22:58.163
can actually come to the job in a time that makes sense, right?
00:22:58.163 --> 00:23:03.863
Or I need you to have flexible time because my child has special needs.
00:23:04.223 --> 00:23:08.263
My child goes to school this time to this time and I need to be able to pick up my child at school.
00:23:08.403 --> 00:23:16.363
I don't need you to tell me to be as part of my onboarding to be in a training for three months.
00:23:16.543 --> 00:23:18.803
That's not really what I need. Right.
00:23:19.143 --> 00:23:24.543
And so being able to have a conversation around understanding what would get
00:23:24.543 --> 00:23:29.823
people to this particular population to a point of economic mobility and having
00:23:29.823 --> 00:23:34.063
that shared language, I think was the, it was a pivotal point.
00:23:34.323 --> 00:23:37.563
Right. And so any partnership, I think you have to start the foundation with
00:23:37.563 --> 00:23:40.123
what exactly are we talking about?
00:23:40.263 --> 00:23:44.203
And let's all get on the page about that. Then we can get on the same page about
00:23:44.203 --> 00:23:47.583
the agenda for the, you know, for the partnership. Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:48.095 --> 00:23:56.475
And how do you prepare people to listen to that, to take one another into account in that way?
00:23:56.595 --> 00:23:59.295
That's a rare kind of space that you're talking about.
00:23:59.875 --> 00:24:06.715
I always like having fun. You know, that's why I talk about facilitation as,
00:24:06.855 --> 00:24:08.595
you know, a power move, right? Right.
00:24:09.695 --> 00:24:19.235
You know, I enjoy people being comfortable enough to share with each other and
00:24:19.235 --> 00:24:20.935
laugh and have fun with each other.
00:24:21.415 --> 00:24:24.935
Right. And so that can look at different kinds of ways. Right.
00:24:25.175 --> 00:24:30.875
For me, it could be when I'm working with a group, like what does the space
00:24:30.875 --> 00:24:32.515
look like that we're working in? Right.
00:24:32.935 --> 00:24:38.115
Or it could be how am I even going to have people introduce themselves to each other? Right.
00:24:38.655 --> 00:24:41.375
Or it could be, how do I walk into the room, right?
00:24:44.655 --> 00:24:51.335
One partnership I was working with, my mom actually got an opportunity to come to. Yeah, it was anyway.
00:24:51.915 --> 00:24:56.315
My mom was like, she needs something to do. I was like, come and flew her down
00:24:56.315 --> 00:24:58.495
and was like, okay, come with me to this partnership meeting.
00:24:58.655 --> 00:25:02.375
Then we'll take the weekend off and go somewhere, right? So she was in the room, right?
00:25:02.935 --> 00:25:06.195
And so I was just like, well, my mommy is my mommy and everybody should know
00:25:06.195 --> 00:25:09.395
my mommy because she's fabulous, right? So I was like, oh, hey,
00:25:09.495 --> 00:25:13.935
everybody, I have a guest. I'm so excited to introduce you all. This is my mommy.
00:25:14.595 --> 00:25:16.135
And that set a different tone.
00:25:16.815 --> 00:25:23.675
So everybody was like, oh, it's your mom. And so it allowed people to see me in a certain way.
00:25:24.235 --> 00:25:27.555
And it allowed them to even open up maybe about their relationship,
00:25:27.555 --> 00:25:31.755
about their mom, or how they were so excited to see me having my mom.
00:25:31.755 --> 00:25:37.235
You know, so how do you humanize a space so that people can connect in ways
00:25:37.235 --> 00:25:41.775
in which might be unexpected, but definitely strips them down from that sort
00:25:41.775 --> 00:25:45.635
of, I'm here as a professional and I need to represent my organization, right?
00:25:46.340 --> 00:25:51.680
Yeah, I love that. So that sort of gets to the beginning of a partnership.
00:25:52.020 --> 00:25:56.100
One thing I'm interested in kind of what partnerships look like and how they change over time.
00:25:56.220 --> 00:26:01.460
So I'm curious if you can talk to me about National African Immigrant HIV and
00:26:01.460 --> 00:26:06.480
Hepatitis Awareness Day, because that's that was one I know you worked on for a really long time.
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:10.400
It was successful. Oh, wow. But it took years.
00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:15.460
And so I'm wondering, tell me if you could tell us a little bit about that effort
00:26:15.460 --> 00:26:20.660
and maybe one or two things you learned from that long-term effort to start that day.
00:26:20.980 --> 00:26:26.800
Yeah, so that started in 2014. And so just to give context, right,
00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:29.500
in the HIV space, we have HIV Awareness Days.
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:36.980
And so those are big things because it brings visibility to whatever issue you're
00:26:36.980 --> 00:26:40.900
trying to bring visibility to and also could potentially lead to funding and
00:26:40.900 --> 00:26:42.380
new opportunities, right?
00:26:42.500 --> 00:26:49.200
And so in 2014, a group of organizers, African organizers doing work within
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:54.960
the HIV space, came together and said we should have an HIV Awareness Day for African immigrants.
00:26:55.520 --> 00:26:59.100
We also said that because hepatitis B is increasing in our community,
00:26:59.380 --> 00:27:02.340
we just slap on hepatitis B as part of the awareness day.
00:27:03.140 --> 00:27:06.580
So again, it came out of community organizing. It came out of activists.
00:27:06.820 --> 00:27:11.700
It came out of community knowing what was needed in order to bring more visibility to this day.
00:27:13.040 --> 00:27:19.140
Now, the question was, how are we going to get it in the front of Congress and
00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:20.680
the front of House of Representatives?
00:27:20.920 --> 00:27:23.860
How are we going to get a champion for this? right
00:27:23.860 --> 00:27:27.220
because it has to be stamped and signed off um
00:27:27.220 --> 00:27:30.300
and so it took what
00:27:30.300 --> 00:27:33.720
until 2024 is when we actually got it
00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.760
recognized as a federal HIV awareness day um and
00:27:37.760 --> 00:27:42.820
so the the twist and turns around that is that we didn't we the same people
00:27:42.820 --> 00:27:47.340
we started with are not the same people we ended with right um and one thing
00:27:47.340 --> 00:27:52.820
I've learned in doing organizing work is that's okay right because people are
00:27:52.820 --> 00:27:56.800
going to join the movement or join the journey when they can, right?
00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:04.080
And so people, you have to create space where there's staying power and it might
00:28:04.080 --> 00:28:06.080
fluctuate along the way, right?
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:12.760
And so of course, staying power meant that we will constantly took the responsibility to be a lead.
00:28:13.080 --> 00:28:17.280
Somebody has to do that in partnerships that are going to be sustainable, right?
00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:22.020
That doesn't mean the lead can't transfer from organizational individual to
00:28:22.020 --> 00:28:24.160
individual, but somebody has to always take the lead, right?
00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:29.160
And so what I was able to take from that is that,
00:28:30.767 --> 00:28:34.567
Creating a process where people can get in, where they can fit in at the moment
00:28:34.567 --> 00:28:39.527
of their lives or the point of where their organization is, is critically important.
00:28:40.027 --> 00:28:43.007
I think often we have these expectations and we want people,
00:28:43.227 --> 00:28:46.187
no, you're going to be here for two years, you're going to do this, you're going to do that.
00:28:46.347 --> 00:28:51.307
And that sometimes is what causes partnerships to fail, right?
00:28:51.387 --> 00:28:53.627
Because you're creating all these parameters and boundaries,
00:28:53.847 --> 00:28:58.947
right? But if you are in a position of creating a flexible process,
00:28:58.947 --> 00:29:03.147
a flexible relationship with your partners where it's like,
00:29:03.547 --> 00:29:09.327
oh, okay, I see that you're struggling this month, take some time off for six
00:29:09.327 --> 00:29:11.347
months. Whenever you're ready, come back.
00:29:11.727 --> 00:29:15.147
Where you have sort of a partnership that operates in that way,
00:29:15.307 --> 00:29:16.867
you will have staying power.
00:29:17.007 --> 00:29:21.807
And it might not look consistent to you because you don't have the same people
00:29:21.807 --> 00:29:24.927
at the same table. but you have people moving it forward.
00:29:25.187 --> 00:29:28.767
And if at any point you can pull on this person, this person,
00:29:28.887 --> 00:29:33.327
this person, they'll be saying the same thing because you've created a space where they can come in,
00:29:33.487 --> 00:29:36.447
they can be grounded in the work and if they need to step back,
00:29:36.547 --> 00:29:39.207
they can and they can come right back in at the same place, right?
00:29:39.287 --> 00:29:40.467
And continue the work, right?
00:29:40.607 --> 00:29:44.707
And so that's what I had to learn in creating because it was exhausting.
00:29:44.947 --> 00:29:49.647
You know, it was exhausting to be constantly talking about, we need this awareness day, right?
00:29:49.967 --> 00:29:53.727
Then it's like, okay, but we need this. this partner will come and say,
00:29:53.867 --> 00:29:54.867
okay, yeah, I can have this.
00:29:55.047 --> 00:29:58.687
They might only be here for the next two years, right? But they've done their
00:29:58.687 --> 00:29:59.647
part and they've committed.
00:29:59.907 --> 00:30:03.087
And then if I call them the third year, I'm like, I just need you to,
00:30:03.087 --> 00:30:05.587
you know, send this out to your network. They'd be like, oh yeah, cool.
00:30:06.047 --> 00:30:09.947
Because I'm not holding them accountable to where I think they should be, right?
00:30:10.287 --> 00:30:13.267
And I understand that they have the capacity to do what they can at that moment.
00:30:13.447 --> 00:30:16.467
And then if I need them for something, they'll be right there because they're
00:30:16.467 --> 00:30:19.367
still committed to the work. Love it. Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:19.547 --> 00:30:20.367
Oh, that's perfect.
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:28.080

00:30:29.029 --> 00:30:34.209
So I do want to talk about one of your recent projects, the African Immigrant
00:30:34.209 --> 00:30:35.529
Health Research Consortium.
00:30:35.669 --> 00:30:39.009
So I got to go to your first event. Yeah. This was fabulous, by the way.
00:30:39.649 --> 00:30:44.109
And I just it felt very different from certainly any other research meeting
00:30:44.109 --> 00:30:46.509
that I've been to in a long time.
00:30:46.509 --> 00:30:51.549
Everybody keeps saying that. Why? Where y'all go? Like, what y'all do?
00:30:51.789 --> 00:30:56.129
I don't know. Just the amount of hugging and laughing and taking photos and
00:30:56.129 --> 00:30:58.049
just the connections that were happening at the tables.
00:30:58.049 --> 00:31:03.149
It was just really inspiring. And so I was hoping you could tell me a little
00:31:03.149 --> 00:31:08.169
bit about how that group came together and where that idea came from.
00:31:09.209 --> 00:31:13.469
So if I'm being very transparent, right, it came through a grant.
00:31:13.909 --> 00:31:19.249
We were able to receive funding from PCORI, Patient-Centered Outreach Research
00:31:19.249 --> 00:31:24.249
Institute, to do work around creating a partnership, a research partnership.
00:31:24.849 --> 00:31:27.569
We knew we wanted it to be community-led, right?
00:31:28.149 --> 00:31:35.009
And so as part of that project, we said that we would do a national meeting, right?
00:31:36.169 --> 00:31:40.449
So I really didn't want to make it. I didn't want it to be as big as it was.
00:31:41.569 --> 00:31:45.689
The partnership push for that. This is, again, right, where you have to step
00:31:45.689 --> 00:31:48.649
back because it ain't about me, right? It's about what the partnership says.
00:31:48.969 --> 00:31:54.109
You know, I was fine with having a small meeting and let's keep it going. but the partnership Who
00:31:54.109 --> 00:31:54.329
Are your partners?
00:31:54.829 --> 00:31:57.689
So we have six partners that make
00:31:57.689 --> 00:32:00.389
up the African immigrant AIHRC is what we call
00:32:00.389 --> 00:32:06.329
it AIHRC and so these are six partners majority of them are grassroots or community-based
00:32:06.329 --> 00:32:11.169
organizations providing services to African immigrants and then some of them
00:32:11.169 --> 00:32:15.289
overall just refugee and immigrants so it's everything from resettlement services
00:32:15.289 --> 00:32:19.909
to social services to healthcare services and so
00:32:21.549 --> 00:32:28.769
So in putting together that event, we knew it needed to reflect what we were talking about, right?
00:32:28.889 --> 00:32:34.049
Like, how can we be talking about challenging colonial understandings of what
00:32:34.049 --> 00:32:36.589
research is and how it should look like?
00:32:37.269 --> 00:32:43.389
And we show up in the very, very traditional way in which research is presented and talked about.
00:32:43.509 --> 00:32:51.229
Like, how can we do that? or we show up in, you know, not acknowledging who
00:32:51.229 --> 00:32:54.009
the communities that we're talking about, African immigrants.
00:32:54.449 --> 00:32:58.289
And so it started with the space, right? I talked about that,
00:32:58.369 --> 00:33:00.529
like creating a space first, right?
00:33:00.609 --> 00:33:06.309
And so we decided that we're going to do everything African from African fabric
00:33:06.309 --> 00:33:08.169
to kola nut, the importance of understanding.
00:33:08.849 --> 00:33:14.689
We knew that if we have Africans walking in that room and they see kola nut
00:33:14.689 --> 00:33:17.729
on the table, that they were going to feel welcomed.
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:25.939
Because kola nut is, you will find it across the continent of Africa as a way
00:33:25.939 --> 00:33:29.199
to start ceremonies, start rituals,
00:33:29.499 --> 00:33:34.359
to welcome people into a home, or that you give as a gift to somebody, right?
00:33:34.539 --> 00:33:37.039
So we knew the significance of the kola nut, right?
00:33:37.299 --> 00:33:41.179
We knew the significance of having African fabric, right?
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:46.059
The shows, like, the various cultures represented there, right?
00:33:46.059 --> 00:33:49.919
So we were very intentional on certain things because we wanted to,
00:33:50.499 --> 00:33:54.719
not Africanizing the research paradigm also meant Africanizing the space in
00:33:54.719 --> 00:33:56.119
which we're going to hold the conversations.
00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:02.579
One of the things I'm really curious about, you know, you organize in African
00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:03.519
immigrant communities.
00:34:03.879 --> 00:34:07.999
We're talking about people have backgrounds in potentially over 50 different
00:34:07.999 --> 00:34:14.099
countries, each with its own histories and cultural backgrounds and languages.
00:34:14.859 --> 00:34:19.799
What does it look like for you to build community and partnership and solidarity
00:34:19.799 --> 00:34:21.639
in that context where do you start.
00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:26.859
Yeah so i mean just in nigeria we're talking about 250 different ethnic
00:34:27.959 --> 00:34:34.439
groups right that's just nigeria right um so yeah so africa has you know 56
00:34:34.439 --> 00:34:39.379
54 depending on how you're counting with the smaller islands um countries right
00:34:39.379 --> 00:34:43.339
and every country has however very many ethnic groups.
00:34:43.659 --> 00:34:50.439
And so ways in which to think about how we're building community in that space
00:34:50.439 --> 00:34:55.999
is what are some of the similarities across the continent that we can all pull from, right?
00:34:56.679 --> 00:35:00.119
In my work in HIV and AIDS, in my work in, you know,
00:35:00.399 --> 00:35:08.079
organizing around research as a tool for advocacy, one of the threads across
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:14.319
African communities, no matter where they're from, is the concept of we, right?
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:17.919
This idea that we are collective, right?
00:35:18.099 --> 00:35:23.959
We're not individuals, right? What I do impacts you and what you do impacts me, right?
00:35:24.299 --> 00:35:27.279
My issues are your issues, your issues are mine, right?
00:35:28.359 --> 00:35:32.939
And so, of course, sometimes that could be a hindrance, right?
00:35:33.159 --> 00:35:38.479
But I use that as a way of how are we talking about our issues in the way in
00:35:38.479 --> 00:35:43.079
which we are building and we're addressing our issues as a collective, right?
00:35:43.239 --> 00:35:46.519
And that was very important in HIV-AIDS work because of the level of stigma
00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:48.199
that was happening, right?
00:35:48.279 --> 00:35:52.239
So I couldn't be like, well, that person's living with HIV, how are we helping that person, right?
00:35:52.419 --> 00:35:56.199
It had to be like, we have a challenge in our community.
00:35:56.679 --> 00:36:00.139
How are we coming together as a community to address it, right?
00:36:00.898 --> 00:36:05.338
And then there's just like visual cues that you just know that,
00:36:05.378 --> 00:36:07.878
you know, that's African, right?
00:36:08.038 --> 00:36:12.078
Whether it's the material, whether it's cultural practice, like I talked about,
00:36:12.238 --> 00:36:17.118
Kola Nut, you know, like even at the event, you saw that we did a libation, right?
00:36:17.458 --> 00:36:20.738
Very African. You can go anywhere and you see people do a libation,
00:36:20.858 --> 00:36:25.718
traditional libations, right? And so how do we pull on those cultural cues to,
00:36:25.718 --> 00:36:30.118
you know, support communities and not only engaging, but also saying like,
00:36:30.238 --> 00:36:32.298
this is something that I can own, right?
00:36:33.058 --> 00:36:38.778
Love it. So one of the things that you and I connected over when we first met was theater.
00:36:39.018 --> 00:36:42.718
You have a background in theater of the oppressed. You've done some theater
00:36:42.718 --> 00:36:46.078
work connected to some of your HIV work.
00:36:46.358 --> 00:36:51.718
How do you think about the role of theater and the arts in building coalitions and partnerships?
00:36:52.018 --> 00:36:56.038
You know, it's not so far-fetched from what happens on the continent of Africa.
00:36:56.258 --> 00:36:59.878
I think here in the U.S. it's a foreign concept, right?
00:37:00.198 --> 00:37:06.758
Like, if I was doing HIV-AIDS on the continent, I would be doing it through theater and the arts.
00:37:07.118 --> 00:37:11.438
If you look at some of the ways in which interventions and development has happened on the continent.
00:37:12.318 --> 00:37:18.278
I think that, for me, the reason why I engage in particular theater of the oppressed,
00:37:18.278 --> 00:37:24.618
but other sort of participatory theater methods is because it allows people to get out of their head
00:37:25.285 --> 00:37:30.865
And really to think about this issue or this challenge in different ways, right?
00:37:31.585 --> 00:37:35.105
The beauty about theater of the oppressed is like it not.
00:37:35.265 --> 00:37:39.705
And since you're a theater head like I am, like, you know that it doesn't just
00:37:39.705 --> 00:37:41.765
unpack the issue, right?
00:37:41.885 --> 00:37:47.625
It personalizes the issue and then it forces you to think about how you can intervene, right?
00:37:48.465 --> 00:37:53.265
And so that's what I love about sort of ways in which we can introduce or bring
00:37:53.265 --> 00:37:56.545
in theater. But then arts has always been part of the HIV AIDS movement.
00:37:56.745 --> 00:38:01.705
It's because of the arts, right? The arts was like the biggest advocacy,
00:38:01.705 --> 00:38:07.285
you know, movement happening in HIV and AIDS to show the fact that people are
00:38:07.285 --> 00:38:09.285
dying and we need to do something about it.
00:38:09.425 --> 00:38:12.225
You know, we have the AIDS quilt, which was done.
00:38:12.665 --> 00:38:17.265
Act Up. Act Up was really sort of integrated into the art scene.
00:38:17.265 --> 00:38:22.425
So arts has always been there as a tool for advocacy, as a tool for visibility,
00:38:22.425 --> 00:38:27.165
as a tool for people to share what's going on in their personal lives without
00:38:27.165 --> 00:38:28.705
having to voice it, right?
00:38:29.465 --> 00:38:34.305
And so I think theater is just a way for people to embody what's happening in
00:38:34.305 --> 00:38:38.705
their lives and to embody what's happening in the community and really sort
00:38:38.705 --> 00:38:45.665
of allow their other senses to guide them on what the solution could look like, right?
00:38:45.665 --> 00:38:49.445
Because we get caught up in our head, you know, we get so caught up in our head.
00:38:49.565 --> 00:38:53.485
And that usually is the main barrier to actually collaborating,
00:38:53.665 --> 00:38:58.105
partnering and, you know, on whatever issues that we want to deal with.
00:38:58.365 --> 00:39:04.845
Yeah, that's beautiful. What is the hardest or most frustrating part of doing this work?
00:39:06.489 --> 00:39:11.469
It's people not understanding their own power. That's the hardest part.
00:39:11.929 --> 00:39:14.789
The hardest part is people not understanding their own power.
00:39:15.249 --> 00:39:20.989
Because the way that we've been socialized, particular communities who are racialized
00:39:20.989 --> 00:39:24.929
and marginalized on a day-to-day basis, about what they can and cannot do,
00:39:25.349 --> 00:39:29.109
about what they're allowed, what space they're allowed to be in,
00:39:29.189 --> 00:39:30.709
and what space they don't belong in,
00:39:31.209 --> 00:39:33.949
about what their limitations are, right?
00:39:34.289 --> 00:39:41.909
And so you internalize that. And so it's a harder process to support people
00:39:41.909 --> 00:39:45.909
in seeing their own power, right?
00:39:46.149 --> 00:39:53.409
I don't use the word empowerment because I think that further notes that someone is marginalized.
00:39:54.269 --> 00:40:00.509
For me, what the issue is that systemically we've been told something and we've internalized that.
00:40:01.389 --> 00:40:08.769
And so it makes it challenging for us to, it makes it challenging for people to step in their power.
00:40:09.169 --> 00:40:14.589
And so that's, for me, the hardest part. Because I know for sure,
00:40:14.949 --> 00:40:19.589
without a question of a doubt, that the answer is going to come from community.
00:40:19.869 --> 00:40:20.069
Yeah.
00:40:20.469 --> 00:40:24.769
I know for sure. I don't, and if we're not grounded in that,
00:40:24.849 --> 00:40:29.549
then we're going to continue to go in this circle of what ifs, right?
00:40:29.549 --> 00:40:35.389
So what do you do to help people or support people to step into their power?
00:40:36.129 --> 00:40:40.769
Yeah. Part of that is unpacking the reasons why, right?
00:40:42.269 --> 00:40:47.329
Unpacking the reasons why folks may feel like they're in a certain situation
00:40:47.329 --> 00:40:49.589
or are in a certain situation.
00:40:49.749 --> 00:40:53.529
So creating space to have that dialogue and that conversation is,
00:40:54.597 --> 00:40:57.817
I think also, even before that, I would say just acknowledging how,
00:40:57.937 --> 00:41:00.917
like, shit is real and shit is hard, right?
00:41:00.997 --> 00:41:03.617
Like, that dismissing people's struggle, right?
00:41:03.777 --> 00:41:08.097
Like, just because I can't speak to what does it mean to migrate from the continent
00:41:08.097 --> 00:41:13.237
of Africa through the Mexican border doesn't mean that it's not hard, right?
00:41:13.317 --> 00:41:17.177
Like, it wasn't my experience, but I hear people saying that shit was hard.
00:41:17.257 --> 00:41:19.137
That shit was hard, period, right?
00:41:19.657 --> 00:41:22.937
Acknowledgement. And so being able to create, am I allowed to cuss? I guess it's too late.
00:41:25.357 --> 00:41:26.137
I should have
00:41:26.137 --> 00:41:28.657
Asked for the parameters of the discussion. They're going to put that little
00:41:28.657 --> 00:41:32.357
explicit sign next to the podcast.
00:41:32.857 --> 00:41:36.377
Like, gosh, he cussed a lot. No, I didn't cuss that much. But yeah,
00:41:36.557 --> 00:41:41.697
so that acknowledgement and then creating space for people to unpack that.
00:41:42.417 --> 00:41:45.717
And then I'm a strong believer. I mean, of course, since, you know,
00:41:45.957 --> 00:41:51.217
I sit in partnerships and I support partnerships, the power of collaboration.
00:41:51.837 --> 00:41:55.217
Right. So someone might be challenged with something.
00:41:55.517 --> 00:41:57.857
Someone else might be challenged with the same thing. Bringing them together
00:41:57.857 --> 00:42:01.557
in the room and seeing how they're acknowledged, how they're seen,
00:42:01.597 --> 00:42:06.257
how they're valued, and how that transfer into them walking into their own power
00:42:06.257 --> 00:42:07.617
is just an amazing process.
00:42:08.237 --> 00:42:12.777
It's just an amazing process. And then once folks are able to connect at that
00:42:12.777 --> 00:42:17.477
individual group level, what they can do as a, we're calling it a coalition
00:42:17.477 --> 00:42:22.077
and a partnership, but what they can do as a collective, it's the most beautiful thing.
00:42:22.657 --> 00:42:26.537
It's really the most beautiful thing. Yeah. That's why I always like,
00:42:26.577 --> 00:42:31.617
like the conference, I'm still in awe at people saying that the conference was amazing.
00:42:32.577 --> 00:42:37.537
I'm still in awe of that, you know, because when you're, when you're doing the
00:42:37.537 --> 00:42:40.057
work behind, you know, like I told you, I wanted a small meeting.
00:42:40.217 --> 00:42:42.077
The partnership said, no, Chioma, we're going big.
00:42:42.557 --> 00:42:44.817
I was like, okay, we're just going to do this little thing. They said,
00:42:44.937 --> 00:42:46.837
no, Chioma, we're going big, you know?
00:42:46.957 --> 00:42:53.117
And so when I, I remember I posted on LinkedIn after the partner, After the...
00:42:54.543 --> 00:42:58.583
The summit. And I said, when you have a dope partnership, you do dope shit.
00:42:58.923 --> 00:42:59.383
Yeah.
00:42:59.863 --> 00:43:04.963
You know what I'm saying? And that's like, once you have the partnership in
00:43:04.963 --> 00:43:11.383
place, once you have your process that is transparent, that is authentic, that is full with trust,
00:43:11.963 --> 00:43:18.043
that's about building, you know, a center around community, your outcomes are going to be amazing.
00:43:18.203 --> 00:43:21.283
They're going to be more than what you could think it could ever be. Right.
00:43:21.703 --> 00:43:26.783
So that was just It's a testimony to me to be clear about that and stay grounded in that.
00:43:27.983 --> 00:43:33.103
Well, that seems like a good place to end it. I love that. That's a bit of a
00:43:33.103 --> 00:43:34.943
mic drop, but you're not allowed to drop these mics.
00:43:35.023 --> 00:43:36.123
Okay, yeah, they look expensive.
00:43:36.183 --> 00:43:37.603
These are not my mics. They look expensive.
00:43:39.863 --> 00:43:44.463
So I just want to thank you for joining me. That was such a fun conversation.
00:43:45.043 --> 00:43:49.783
Thank you for having me. I'm excited. I'm excited about how you continue this
00:43:49.783 --> 00:43:51.183
conversation around partnerships.
00:43:51.863 --> 00:43:57.443
And the critical point I think we are in and how partnerships can really move
00:43:57.443 --> 00:44:00.123
us into a better place than where we are right now.
00:44:00.323 --> 00:44:02.423
So thank you for your commitment to this work.
00:44:02.643 --> 00:44:03.963
Of course. Thank you. Take care.
00:44:07.263 --> 00:44:11.823
Thank you all for joining me today. To see the episode transcript and show notes,
00:44:11.963 --> 00:44:15.223
head over to partnershipwork.podbean.com.
00:44:15.403 --> 00:44:18.823
I've included some links to places where you can learn more about today's guest
00:44:18.823 --> 00:44:20.123
and the topics we discussed.
00:44:21.183 --> 00:44:25.123
Partnership Work is an independent podcast created with the incredible support
00:44:25.123 --> 00:44:30.163
of the nonprofit organization Urban Media Arts here in my hometown of Malvin, Massachusetts.
00:44:30.963 --> 00:44:36.343
Check them out at urbanmediaarts.org. I'll see you next time. Take care.