Authority

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Jacob: Welcome to the Ordinary
Discipleship Podcast with Jesse

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Krukshank. I'm Jacob Hoyer here
with Julia Schmaltz, and we are

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still talking about big topics
out of Jesse and Julia's book,

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Becoming Good News: Reimagining
Discipleship Through Identity,

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Story, and Science. And you
know, guys, we've been talking

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on a previous episode about this
contrast between being and

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doing, and creating environments
where we can live from our

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identity, which is our being,
not our doing, which were these

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tasks and roles that we all take
on. Julia, you were saying

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recently, like, but at the end
of the day, there's still some

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stuff we have to do, and I think
I'm like, I'm picturing my dad

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in my mind when I say that
phrase, like, well, yeah, but

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you have to do something, and
and we're not telling people

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they should just like not do
stuff. Just sit and listen.

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Prayer is good, but sometimes
you have to get out of your

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prayer closet and go do
something. So, how would you

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speak to that concern that this
conversation around identity

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being overdoing just kind of
allows us to avoid

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accountability for the things we
actually have to do?

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Julia Schmaltz: When Jesus was
assigned identity by God at this

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baptism. He was told, "This is
my beloved Son in whom I am well

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pleased. Before he had done
anything, and I do think it's

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important for us to realize
Psalm 139. We're formed in our

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mother's womb, Jeremiah one. You
know, it talks about you know we

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are formed first, we are named
first by God, this part of us

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that is formed for eternity
exists out that exists outside

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of our even time, right? That's
what we're talking about when

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we're talking about identity.
But the practical question is

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that you asked is like, how do
we bring that into what we do?

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So Jesus never had an official
role or position. He was called

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a rabbi, but he was not
officially a rabbi named by the

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Pharisees. He was a rabbi by the
nature of the gifting that God

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had given him, the assignment
that God had given him, and then

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the role as being a teacher to a
group of disciples that were

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going to follow him into this
new way of of operating in the

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kingdom. And in Mark 115, it
says, the time is now, the

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kingdom is at hand. Repent and
believe the gospel, and then he

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proclaimed the good news, and he
says it is going to be good news

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for the poor. And he quotes from
Isaiah chapter 61. And this

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whole thing that happens in
Jesus's life, it's you know when

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you look at his life, you go,
okay, how do we live like Jesus?

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We live attuned to the spirit of
God, what he did was he was

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named by God. He eventually was
named by Peter too. When Peter

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says that you know you are the
Christ, the Son of the Living

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God, and and Jesus affirms Peter
and says you know flesh and

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blood has not declared this over
has not told you this has not

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revealed this to you. This is
this is from the spirit of God,

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so we what we're saying when we
talk about identity is that no

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matter what we do, no matter
what we're shaped with, you know

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what our spiritual gifts are,
our heart, you know things that

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we're passionate about, our
pers, our abilities, our

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personality, our experiences,
just the the skills, you know.

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I'm I'm a pretty tech savvy
person, you know, and so I'm

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asking God because I'm, you
know, I'm designing websites,

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I'm doing all this stuff, you
know, we're writing books and

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we've got all these things going
on. I'm like, God, I want to

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take this off my plate, but I
actually really enjoy designing

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a website and getting into AI
and figuring out how to solve

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problems. Like that's how God's
wired me. So I don't stop doing

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any of those things. I don't
stop baking my kids' dinner.

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Other than I'm not a good cook,
and they don't. They laugh at

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whenever they they're like,
"Mom, you need to not be cooking

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anymore. So, but you don't stop
needing to feed your family. You

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don't stop doing those things,
and as you said, just sit in a

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prayer closet. But I don't. I am
not defined by those things. I

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am not like I am not just a
mother. I am not just a wife. I

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am not just a daughter. I'm not
just you know running an

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organization and my roles and
responsibilities in that in that

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environment. I am my identity is
deeper than that, and so when I

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go to do those things, I have to
ask God, how do I do those? As

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you know, He calls me a
courageous pioneer. How do I do

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those? And what what's been
freeing for me in knowing that

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God calls me a courageous
pioneer, is that that means that

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a lot of times when I get
frustrated because people aren't

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with me, God said, "No, it's
because you're supposed to go

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first and figure this out, and
then people are going to come.

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Or I was frustrated because I'm
like, God, I just seem to start

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things and not finish them, or I
start and then I have you ask me

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to leave before they're done,
like, and I have to hand it off

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to someone else. And these these
these things in my life that I

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looked at as failures.

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When God showed me who I was, He
said, "No, you actually go

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first, so you can be who. And by
you being who you're supposed to

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be, the people coming behind you
get to be who they're supposed

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to be. And that's actually the
way that I made you. And that

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was very freeing for me because
it wasn't then a failure. It was

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no. It's the truth of who I am,
and in community, I get to hand

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the baton to somebody else to be
who they are, and that's the

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beauty of it. It's that I get to
do all of it and the fullness of

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it, but I don't have to bear the
weight and the burden of it, and

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that has been the most amazing
freedom that God has given. Me

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and I, I know a lot of people as
we're just beginning to press

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into true identity.

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Jacob: You know what's occurring
to me, Julia, is like we were

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talking earlier about. I think
you were talking about

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remothering and how so many
people to receive their identity

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because our culture has prized
the masculine virtues over the

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feminine virtues. There's been
like people have resisted or

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been deprived of a mothering
influence, and it's really

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interesting because coming into
this conversation about walking

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in our authority, I'm always
thinking about how to reframe

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authority for people so they
don't be assholes and run over

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other people. And you heard the
question about authority as how

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do we frame authority so that
everyone knows they have

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something to offer is how I
heard it. Like the license to be

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yourself and not have to be
somebody else, and and and and

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license. I'm thinking about it
as keeping people in check. Like

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just be yourself. Don't try to
be a super version of yourself.

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And I was like, as you were
talking, I was hearing that in

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terms of like, oh yeah, in your
story, you needed to be told

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that who you were was enough. In
my story, I often need to

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remember not to use my role as
license to be more than I am,

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like remembering to live out of
my identity for me is a check

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more than it's a license, which
is again I think true to the

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different stories you and I have
gotten to live. It's like I

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think I've often found myself in
positions to lead beyond my own

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development, and I know that's a
part of your story too, maybe in

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a little bit different way. But
I think like I've had to learn

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how to be to move slower and
speak quieter to leave more room

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for others. And I hear you
saying that that for you,

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authority that flows from your
identity is about permission to

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step into what is really yours
to do. I

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Julia Schmaltz: can be loud as
well, Jacob. So I think I've had

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to learn to die to self for for
many decades, and so in doing

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that, I think the Lord has said,
"You don't you don't do that

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stepping on others in the
process. You do that because

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then you see the truth of who
they are, and then you're asking

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God, "Who do you say that they
are? And okay, I see that. And

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God's actually with my kids.
I've asked God, "Who do you say

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that they are? Years before they
ever receive an identity from

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Him, before they're even ready
to receive it. But then calling

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that out of them is something
that's been very life giving for

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me because, and also then for
them because they're starting

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there. There's not a weight and
a burden that gets put on that,

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you know, and so that's
interesting that you're talking

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about the feminine and masculine
virtues, and then also you know

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you feeling like you've got to
pull back. I want to press into

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that a little bit more with you,
but I'll let Jesse respond

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Jessie Cruickshank: and chime in
first. I think it's that push

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pull, so that we don't end up in
gutters, right? Why we're

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better, where we're better
together, and together Adam and

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Eve make a complete image of
God. And so, you know, not

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having spirit, biological
children, but having spiritual

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children, asking the same thing
over them, like God, who who are

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they? What what was the gift you
gave? What we did together, so

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in leadership role, so running
an organization, what was the

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gift you gave the organization
and this person? You know what

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was what was the need that you
see that the organization has,

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the community has, that this
person gets to come help be a be

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a part of filling, and I think
we started praying that way

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because we were young and we
didn't have strategy and we

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didn't know how to actually
build an organization. I mean, I

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don't know how to build an
organization at the age of 22,

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but I do know how to pray and
ask God to send people. And so,

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so what was the identity? What
was the gift that they came as,

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and saying, you know, okay, how
do we how do we receive that

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from them? Wow, I I really wish
that they were better at

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something than they are. Like
like receiving a lot of people

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who are in process or incomplete
or you know not a superstar, and

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yet the Lord's like, no, this is
my gift to you, and and you're

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gonna grow together. You're
gonna be together in this. So

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for me, for me, I have the push
pull of, you know, how do I step

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back in a way that lets them be
brave enough to step forward

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because I'm I'm pretty intense
personality, but then also how

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do I know who, what I'm being
invited into. What is the space

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God is asking me to stand in?
And in that, while I'm leading

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them, what does that actually
look like to be a nurturing

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space? The best metaphor I have
for that is a mother tree. Like

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a mother tree helps nurture a
forest. It doesn't. It it

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doesn't like you can't. Make any
of the other trees grow, but you

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can send them nutrients. You can
change the soil. You can you can

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create an atmosphere for other
others to thrive to thrive in

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and to be and flourish. I feel
both, right? I feel the push

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pull. I feel the places where
I've I need permission to be in

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my true self, and where I need
to be like, okay, let me dial

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down a little bit of the
intensity, so that others don't

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feel overwhelmed by that. So,
so, so that leadership, that

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being for me, is a is a bit of a
an expansion and contraction and

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an ebb and a flow. And so, you
know, Julia, you and I share the

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same practice where we say,
okay, God, who are you asking me

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to be in this room? Who am I
showing up as? Am I showing up

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as for me my my catalyst, where
I'm going to speak intensely,

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and the point is that it's
intense and it's going to change

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somebody's life? Or God, are you
showing? You invited me to show

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up as a terraformer, which is a
slower process of changing the

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soil and changing the atmosphere
in order for things to be able

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to grow, and those are ones
short term, ones long term, ones

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more intense, and ones more way
you know pulled back. But

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they're both me because they're
both who God created me to be.

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It's just what am I invited to
be in that room will then inform

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what I do in that room.

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Jacob: Yeah, and I, I, I, I
wrote that down previously as

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like what part of my identity is
fueling my current role. Now

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again, I think it's like for us,
a lot of this is about

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differentiating concepts that
have been conflated in the past,

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and so for a lot of people,
their role has become their

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identity. And I think part of
what we're saying in this

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conversation is both are
necessary. So it's like you have

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to be true to your identity, and
you should probably be faithful

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to your role. But the role
should always flow from the

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identity. The identity should
always be what's what's

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empowering the role. Am I
getting that right?

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Julia Schmaltz: Yeah, I think
that's all part of our

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formation. So my husband was a
police officer for 35 years, and

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you know he was we were here in
California, and so he you know

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took an oath for the law of the
land to to operate in the

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authority that he was given to
you know with the laws here in

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in California, but when he goes
to Arizona, he's still a police

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officer in California, but he
has a different authority. He

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has a different now that he's
retired. He has all the

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training. He has all the
experience. In 2020, he had a

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heart attack and then had kidney
cancer, and so he was still,

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even though he was still a
police officer, he was off duty

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because of that of that year
because of the just some of the

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physical stuff that he was
dealing with, and so he had to

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be. Is my identity being a
police officer? Is my identity

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and for all I will tell you,
being a wife of a police

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officer, it was at that time.
It's not anymore. God has since

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called him a peacemaker, and
he's a peacemaker in how he goes

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into situations. And God calls
him a faithful, beloved son, and

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he's that, regardless of whether
or not he is a police officer or

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a deputy or whatever role he
has. He's that whether wherever

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he goes, you know, he he's a
peacemaker. But he broke that

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for beautifully for 35 years in
a wonderful career. Now that

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he's retired, he's still a
peacemaker, and that's the truth

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of who he is. But he's no longer
has the same authority in those

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in a room that he used to have.
Now he has authority in other

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rooms, and I think that's part
of our spiritual formation.

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God's saying, "I'm changing the
boundaries for you because now

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that you know who you are, how
are you going to operate like

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that in this this different
world? And sometimes, to your

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point, Jesse, it constricts, and
then sometimes it opens up, and

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it's constantly changing. And I
think also that you know our

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worlds expand, and so we have
multiple areas, you know. I

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might have that authority at
church, or I might not,

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depending on my role or my
responsibility. I have it in a

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group that I'm leading in my
home right now, and it's really

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beautiful. And people are
inviting me in. You know, same

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thing with my kids' lives as
they grow, that changes. So I

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think that there's something
about that when it comes to you

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know to just our authority and
being able to really like in our

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roles and responsibilities, the
truth of who we are is going to

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play out in all of that. But,
but our authority really has

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boundaries. I we believe. I
mean, that's what something that

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Jesse and I really wrestled
through in writing this this

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book is that we we are not
supposed to hold power in our

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brains. And Jesse can talk about
the neuroscience of that, and

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get real nerdy for you on it in
the most beautiful way. What we

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love about her, but we're not
supposed to hold power. But we

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are empowered by the Spirit for
the roles and the assignments

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that God gives us, and that is
how we operate in our authority.

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and And we are supposed to
operate in that. And one of.

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Things that Adam and Eve did is
they questioned God, and and the

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enemy said to them, "Did God
really say that? And I think

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that's just the the the number
one scheme of the enemy is he

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just makes us doubt God. He
makes us doubt that God is who

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He says He is, that we are who
we say we are, and out of that,

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if God's not really good, or if
God's, or if I'm you know a

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screw up, and all of a sudden, I
abdicate. I hand over my

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authority to the enemy and say,
"Well, the enemy's just running

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rampant in my life. And it's
like, "Oh, is that true?

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God, do you say that it's true,
or are you actually, you know,

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have I just abandoned, abdicated
my role and responsibility in

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the authority that you've given
to me and handed it over to the

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enemy, and so the enemy has free
reign in my life. And I think

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that the Lord is saying you
actually have more authority.

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Your assignment is greater than
you realize if you can operate

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in the truth of who you are and
allow your being to inform all

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that you do. Yeah,

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Jessie Cruickshank: the
temptation with the doing is

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that it sets us up and convinces
us that we're a source, that

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we're the source, and so we, you
know, we want power. We stay in

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power. We think that we need to
know the answers. I mean, it

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depends on depends on whatever
your your economy is, right? So

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you're what is it that the
situation needs that you think

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you're the source of, and so
when when we are stuck in a

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doing paradigm, then then we're
we have to provide that. When we

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can when we can shift out of
that into a being paradigm, then

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our being is grounded in who God
is, and we don't have to be a

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source. And so, authority
doesn't come from us; it flows

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through us. God is the source of
all authority, and all authority

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is actually delegated, right
from the throne to wherever God

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deems that it is, right? And we
can be upset about that. We can

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be jealous of that. We can we
can have all the feels that we

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feel about how God delegates
that authority, but it's still

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it's from Him through us. But we
cut off that supply when we

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think we're the source, and then
we can either get trapped by

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trying too hard or doing too
much or operating in in ways

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that can harm other people, or
we abdicate. Or usually, what

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happens is we try hard, it
doesn't work, and then we quit

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and abdicate. But but we always
end up in this place where where

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we give up and relinquish when
when God never asked us to be

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the source, He just said, "Hey,
you stand in this place that I

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give you, and I will do it.
Well, that that means we have to

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abide. That means we have to be
grafted in. We have to be a

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branch, you know, tapped into
the vine, and let the juice that

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flows through a plant, throw
flow through us, and you know

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that that paradigm then is my
doing flows out of my being. My

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being is connected. My and I am
is connected to who God is, and

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I don't have to worry then about
I don't have to worry then about

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what actually happens in a room?
What the fruit is? You know

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what, what is accomplished? I,
you know, whether or not people

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listen to me, I can just stay
grafted into the vine there and

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and let God do it, and and then
we'll deal with that, right? For

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better, for worse, for you know,
fat, for miracles or for

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frustration, we we can deal with
that because that's the story

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God's writing.

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Jacob: So in the book, you
ordered the topics this way.

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It's like story is at the
center, and then you talk about

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identity, then community, then
maturity, then authority. I

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wonder if the sequence there is
a stacking. So do you think the

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content needs to be apprehended
in that order?

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Julia Schmaltz: Yes. Yes.

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Jacob: Okay, I'm just confirming
that. Yeah. Because what I was

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sensing in this conversation is
like it's very complex, and so

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we have you have being and
doing, you have role and

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responsibility, you have power
and authority, you have

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effectiveness and and
restedness, like so. So there's

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advancing and retreating, and
all of that is coming together.

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And that's one of like, I I like
I was thinking of our listener

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and thinking like, wow, we just
threw out five concepts because

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power is different than
authority, role is different

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than responsibility, and it's
like. But I think in order to

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get at what you're saying about
doing out of our being

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boundaries on our authority,
moving from authority in order

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to wield the power of God or or
submit to the power of God, and

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then and not abdicating what's
been mined to do, and like, and

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when I think power and
authority, I think about like

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the American world today. It's
like it feels like every every

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conversation in our culture is
dominated by questions of power,

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and and it's very very complex.
And so I was I was checking to

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make sure that. That authority
comes at the end of the book

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because it really it really does
come after we understand

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identity, community, and
maturity. Then we can start to

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have a conversation about
authority. So I'm just saying to

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our listener, if you're feeling
a little overwhelmed and

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00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,780
conflicted, it's because we
jumped to the end of the story,

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and there's a lot at play here.
Is that would you agree or

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disagree?

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Julia Schmaltz: Yeah, if you
look at the way the questions

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are along those topics, the for
identity is the question of who

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am I, and maturity is the
question of who am I becoming,

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and there's a vertical access to
that that we are on a journey in

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which we are we are being that
for out our entire life. We're

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talking about a lifetime of
discipleship. We're not talking

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about a moment. You don't just
hear your identity and boom,

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great, this is who I am. Now let
me go be this wherever I go.

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We're not talking about that.
You keep coming back, and you'll

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see that who's at the center. We
actually the first question we

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ask is actually fidelity. Who is
my God? Who do I put at the

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center of my life? And then over
time, how am I coming closer to?

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I should become in more and more
alignment. And if I'm coming in

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more and more alignment with
Christ and becoming more one

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with Him, and Jesse and Jacob
and all of us as listeners are

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00:21:09,990 --> 00:21:13,110
becoming more and more aligned
to Him, there is more and there

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is more attunement to what God
is doing and what God is

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speaking. And so then the
questions that we have

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horizontally are community and
authority, and those are

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actually who do I represent? Who
do I belong to? And so this

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question of authority is who do
I represent? And so when I

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operate in authority, whose
power am I operating in? If if

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we're operating in Christ's
authority, which is of course

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our desire, He's going to keep
telling us who we are, and I

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just kept coming back. You know,
I just want to remind all of us

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as the listeners, like when we
talk about Jesus, Jesus, there

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were there were towns that he
did not go in. He actually,

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whoa, Corason, whoa, Bethesda,
because they did not receive

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him, and so us operating in our
authority, God, you know, Jesus

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had all authority in heaven and
on earth had been given to him,

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and he was still rejected. And
there were places that he

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stepped in and then left, or
places that he never went. There

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were boundaries that were placed
on Paul in where he could go and

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he couldn't go. And this is
where we just have it's so it's

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complex, and yes, it builds and
there's a lot of concepts around

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all of it, and yet it's so
simple. It's who's our God and

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00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,080
who's at the center of our life
and who do who are we keep who

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do we keep going to to tell us
who we are and whose we are. And

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if there's one thing from all
the conversations we're having,

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from story, from authority,
identity, maturity, community,

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it's who are we going back to is
at the center of our life and

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gets to tell us who we are.

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Jessie Cruickshank: It
definitely gets like three

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00:22:48,130 --> 00:22:52,300
dimensional in all of that, but
but just as Julie is saying,

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like the core is simple. The
core is tetheredness. The core

385
00:22:57,430 --> 00:23:04,080
is that dynamic with God and our
dynamic with others, so you can

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00:23:04,170 --> 00:23:07,590
stand in your spiritual
authority when you're five, and

387
00:23:07,650 --> 00:23:11,820
I tell a story about doing that
in the book. And so we we can

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00:23:11,910 --> 00:23:14,580
make it complicated as we think
about the complexity of the

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world, but if we just zoom in
and say, okay, what does it look

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00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,400
like for a child to know how God
names them to say, you know,

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God, Jesus, you're my, you're my
Jesus, you're my Lord, you're my

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00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,350
Savior, right? So God is my
Savior and my Lord. I am a

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00:23:30,410 --> 00:23:33,950
beloved child of God, and then
okay, God, what do you want me

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00:23:33,950 --> 00:23:36,620
to do about that? What do you
want me to know about that? So

395
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,320
we can we can distill it down to
simplicity, and that those

396
00:23:41,470 --> 00:23:44,320
things, what's true for the
five-year-old is true for all of

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00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:46,990
us. And so, when it feels
overwhelming, when it feels

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00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:51,910
complex, man, just close your
eyes, enter in that space that

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00:23:51,940 --> 00:23:54,790
you have with God, and ask the
question like a five-year-old,

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00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,950
and and God will answer you
there. He always has, at least

401
00:23:59,950 --> 00:24:04,530
for Julie, at least for me, he
always has. I mean, I mean,

402
00:24:04,620 --> 00:24:07,170
practically, like I was in a
couple of meetings this week,

403
00:24:07,230 --> 00:24:09,300
and we were, you know, what
should we do? We're going, you

404
00:24:09,330 --> 00:24:11,580
know, you start getting into all
these conversations, you know,

405
00:24:11,730 --> 00:24:13,470
and it's like, what, what's God
inviting us into? You start

406
00:24:13,530 --> 00:24:15,450
asking all these questions, and
we just stopped and said, God,

407
00:24:15,510 --> 00:24:17,640
what are you asking? Like, we
just stopped, God, what do you

408
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,890
want us to know right now, in
this moment, God, what are you

409
00:24:22,010 --> 00:24:25,850
speaking to us? Because we know
who we are, we know that we are

410
00:24:25,940 --> 00:24:29,030
yours, and what are you speaking
to us in this moment? And do you

411
00:24:29,030 --> 00:24:30,110
know how centering that was?

412
00:24:30,290 --> 00:24:32,300
Julia Schmaltz: And do you know
how God just speaks alignment to

413
00:24:32,390 --> 00:24:36,290
people when we just go back and
ask Him? Like, if that was just

414
00:24:36,470 --> 00:24:39,830
our authority comes from Him,
and we just keep going back to

415
00:24:39,860 --> 00:24:47,320
that, and I'm just wanting more
of that. Like how simple. I just

416
00:24:47,350 --> 00:24:49,660
want more of that. I don't have
to figure this world out. I

417
00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:52,090
mean, I don't know about you
guys, but I'm in the AI space

418
00:24:52,210 --> 00:24:54,460
right now, and things are
changing so fast. I mean, you

419
00:24:54,490 --> 00:24:58,030
talk about being overwhelmed by,
and I love it. And I actually am

420
00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:01,950
really pressing into that, but.
There's there's something about

421
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,700
like I realize like I can't
literally keep up with the speed

422
00:25:05,730 --> 00:25:08,430
of how things are changing in
this world, so I just have to

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00:25:08,460 --> 00:25:11,340
keep going back to Jesus and
having Him tell me what I need

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to know and what I need to do.
Amen.

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Jacob: Amen. Thanks for joining
us on the Ordinary Discipleship

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Podcast with Jesse Cruikshank.
Check out Jesse and Julia's

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book, *Becoming Good News:
Reimagining Discipleship Through

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Identity, Story, and Science*
and we'll see you next time.