Dave Sharp:
00:00
Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of Office Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy, marketing, and PR services tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp.com to learn more or follow the practice on Instagram at officedavesharp. Joining me on the show today are John Wardle and Jasmine Williamson of Wardle Studio. A highly recognized gold medal winning practice known for creating extraordinary buildings in places that matter.
Dave Sharp:
00:43
In this episode, John Jasmine and I discussed the practice's evolution from the early days of small but highly considered residential projects to the broad range of sectors and scales they work in today. We looked at their process for pitching for new work when entering new sectors and how they identify the right ideas and details from other projects in their portfolio to draw on as inspiration for potential clients. We discussed why John believes that not having previous built work on a project typology can be advantageous for the client, but can also come with some challenges when competing against efficient practices that specialize in that area. We looked at the thinking behind their recent rebranding of the studio and decision to shift the focus from John to the other partners, who each bring a different voice to the practice. And finally, we spoke about their recent expansion into the Sydney market and how a practice like Wardle goes about building relationships and brand awareness in a short space of time.
Dave Sharp:
01:34
So I hope you enjoy my conversation with John and Jasmine from Wardle Studio. John and Jasmine, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
John Wardle:
01:46
Thank you, Jay. Good to be here with you.
Dave Sharp:
01:48
So I think it's always good to start with maybe a little bit of background on the practice and how it started and the evolution. Take us back to the kind of the early days of the studio, maybe, John.
John Wardle:
01:58
Well, the practice started what now seems to be a a lifetime ago, 30 something years ago. It was it seemed a vast ambition to even call it John Wardle Architects as we were then. It was very much just me on my own. It was a practice that was sort of slow to fire. I've often said I was genetically unsuited for this coming from generations of of school teachers, scientists, and everything else.
John Wardle:
02:29
I think probably the first person to ever start a business in on either side of my family, so it was something that sort of was I always felt I came to a stranger to to the commerce side of running an architectural practice. And for that reason alone, I think we were we, muddled along quite nicely doing small I think quite delicate, well considered, but small projects for quite a few years before, through opportunity, very often the generosity of others, people that saw evidence in very small work of things that could be larger and took us on. And, we've it is certainly a practice that's been there due to the patronage, generosity, and largess of others in each of the many phases of our growth.
Dave Sharp:
03:17
And, Jasmine, what was your origin story with Wardle in terms of joining the studio and kind of your background a little bit as well? Because I'm kinda curious to hear that story too.
Jasmin Williamson:
03:26
Well, I joined, the practice, many, many years ago, and I've I've experienced a a solid part of that 30 odd years of practice. I checked this morning. I've been with the practice for 17 years this year, which is quite extraordinary, in in in fact. And when I joined, I was very much, a young unregistered graduate, who didn't know very much about what I was doing whatsoever and had come from a practice that was very much working on small renovation type project residential focus projects. And, the the practice really threw me in the deep end and offered me this wonderful opportunity to work on some amazing public, civic projects, the first being, 500 Burke Street in Melbourne.
Jasmin Williamson:
04:17
And we did an incredible adaptive reuse piece on that on that project, for a really important client that I have come to know, through other projects since then, ISPT. But, that was quite a revelation for me, on all facets of practice from early design phases right through to delivery and working with contractors.
Dave Sharp:
04:42
So being there around that sort of time when the practice was making that sort of transition to the larger public scale work. It's a topic we like talking about a lot on the podcast because a lot of small practices are wanting to do more public work in larger scale work one day and and they're sort of always curious to think about how do you solve that kind of chicken and egg problem of not having done those kinds of projects and then venturing into that area, and the barriers to entry can sometimes be pretty hard. And I guess things have probably changed a little bit over the last 20 years in terms of opportunities for smaller practices. What's the secret recipe of the move to going from beautiful residential work to beautiful public projects. And I guess, like, you touched on people seeing some potential, seeing something in the smaller work, John.
John Wardle:
05:24
Yeah. Look. It's it's very difficult. Ambition is a is an interesting thing to consider here because I what I often say is there was never an ambition to grow practice. Our practice growth has always been by going for a job, generally work that we hadn't ever done before, you know, breaking new ground into, you know, the first commercial building, the first civic building, the first university building, the 1st research building, all of these firsts, generally, and and some of them coming simultaneously caused the practice to grow, and and it it has been purely organic growth.
John Wardle:
06:04
We've never had a a business plan. We've never had a 5 year plan, haven't even had a 6 month plan, which is probably one of the conundrums we're currently facing. And so, you know, often hear of practices they'd like to be a practice of 50, and they work around that. We've never had that sort of I mean, we are ambitious in our own way, but never that. I think one of the things one of the the things I I do enjoy hearing about our practice is that we manage to transition from really articulate deeply thoughtful small buildings to the same up upscaling those those means of operation and and outcome to provide big and more public buildings that operate in the same level of detail intensity and thoughtfulness of of our small buildings.
John Wardle:
06:53
That probably comes out of self consciousness and nervous anxiety as much as anything that fear of failure, but it is something that's driven us to always maintain that aspect of what we do deeply appreciate ourselves about the world we live in, but what we know particularly through our that constant research of of of seeing how people operate in space, both private, communal, and public spaces, and and understanding that and feeling that we have a responsibility to to create buildings that are attuned to human experience.
Jasmin Williamson:
07:34
And it is wonderful when you you do meet a client who really gets that, they they can they can see that translation. I recall when we were working on we were bidding on a a new law court. We'd never that was another first for the practice. We'd never won a law court, and we thought, wow. Our odds on this are pretty slim.
Jasmin Williamson:
07:55
But we we spent a lot of time in the way that we were articulating exactly what John's described to this particular client. And you could see that they absolutely got it. And that was the reason that we you know, one of many reasons, but that was one of the key reasons that they told us later down that we were successful. Similarly, with a project here in Sydney, for a Western Sydney Council, We spoke to them about similar, you know, the way their staff and their community will come in and experience this building, from that moment of arrival on that threshold. And you move through the space and the experience that sort of the things that are very difficult to kind of quantify and describe, but the, experiential nature of that space.
Jasmin Williamson:
08:44
And I think that, you know, really resonated with that particular client as well.
Dave Sharp:
08:56
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Dave Sharp:
09:29
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John Wardle:
10:18
of Yeah. The the Victorian government architect for several years ago, Geoffrey London and Leon Van Schijk from RMIT wrote a book, can't think of the title of what I've have in our library, in fact, we bought about 20 copies to hand out to clients because I I liked its thesis, But it it it it was about how to engage, creative professionals for for projects that exist in the urban realm. And it said and its primary initial piece of advice is to take previous experience out of the equation altogether. The first the the founding principle of their whole thing was to take the need to have somebody have done hospitals, law courts, research rooms, whatever, out of it. And you can see by looking at the qualitative aspects of those projects as they exist, that generally, the best projects are done by people doing it for the first time or early introduction into a new area of work that research it well that garner all of the energies that you enthusiasm you would have for a new building type and implement new philosophies and new ways of of working rather than those that that just spin them out one after the other.
John Wardle:
11:36
You could just you can almost see that as we walk and look critically at the buildings that exist in our cities.
Dave Sharp:
11:44
When you sort of joined the practice, Jasmine, in that kind of period getting into the public work where I guess at that point, the reputation and profile, I'm imagining probably wasn't where it is today necessarily, like that that track record, like, putting experience back into the equation, I suppose, in terms of your experience being successful in lots of types of projects. You talked a minute ago, John, about this thing about doing these really refined, well articulated small buildings and large buildings and being able to transfer that across the scales and being known for that. Was there a time where that was really tested in the larger scale work? Were you under pressure? Was it difficult?
Dave Sharp:
12:22
Were the clients that you're working with all receptive to it? Did you occasionally have to work clients that didn't seem to get that?
John Wardle:
12:28
There's a couple of parts to the answer to that. One is we've never jettisoned types. The some practices as they've grown, we, would would no longer do housing. We lovingly still do housing. So that that range of scale of work we're doing a very small restaurant in a park at the moment where, and a house renovation and a series of small family homes at the same time we're doing our largest ever project, the Australian Institute of infectious diseases, a massive and complex project, and I think the constancy of of the variance is a good thing for all of the projects.
John Wardle:
13:11
So and and not only for the work itself, but the engagement with the people. At the same time, you're engaging with a couple over a family home, you're also having to advocate strongly to a large group of stakeholders over how they'll use their building and appreciate aspects of of maybe some new ideas that we want to engage with. So part of our way of doing that is is this, is the broad spectrum of of work that we do. But, yeah, in the other half of answering that question, the difficulties constantly, it is, I mean, it's just one of those things that the nature of our profession, we're always the odd person in the room. We could be there in a very large group with development managers and clients and other stakeholders and things, and it's the architect often that holds that space of, I think, probably self consciously feeling the responsibility of of speculating on the future, how this building will be perceived when it's finished, how how long it will serve its purpose for, how it will stand the test of time, we are holding that mantle constantly.
Dave Sharp:
14:24
Do you find that you sometimes have to be the bad cop in the room and be difficult sometimes about it? Maybe the other people are going, oh, come on. It'd be so much easier to just blah blah blah, and you're going you'll thank me later.
Jasmin Williamson:
14:37
In every project, we're always up up against the the usual, constraints, you know, that we all have to face with, rising construction costs, you know, pressure on program, all of those things that, you know, come to bear through the course of the of the project. And, of course, we're always very responsive, but we try to be responsive in a very creative way. So we're always pushing and challenging and finding opportunities, to just push beyond, with without, you know, irritating those development managers and, you know, construction people who were tasked with, you know, the final delivery and of the of the projects. But, I think one thing I've observed through my time is that as we have, maintained that breadth, of project scale and type, we've I think we've become really quite savvy in the way that we can design really strategically at scale when we need to. So when we're up against your backs are up against the wall, you know, and where the project's under financial pressure and all these complexities, many of which, we might have insight into and other times we don't.
Jasmin Williamson:
16:00
I think we've become really clever in designing, you know, really strategically about, okay, this is where we put our design effort, and this is where we can perhaps relax something. And holistically, the project can be quite, you know, equally as strong as it may have been if we if we, you know, didn't weren't encountering those constraints.
Dave Sharp:
16:22
So how do you find that the bringing in the the links to the other project types in that diverse range of project types can help in that situation where you feel like your back's against the wall with the project. Like, that's really interesting. Could you just go a bit more into that?
Jasmin Williamson:
16:35
One example is we're really inventive with the materials that we use and the materials that we choose, and and, we can be quite playful with with materials that are not, you know, super, you know, economically expensive. So I think just and that and a lot of those, those, you know, explorations can be can be played out through smaller scale projects that are quicker to deliver and, you know, you can research things quite quickly and but can easily translate into something at large scale and be quite economical at large scale.
Dave Sharp:
17:11
And John, what's your thoughts on situations?
John Wardle:
17:14
Often, and I know a lot of other architects, and I often look really deeply into the way practices function. I'm always intrigued by always questioning other friends in in the profession about how they operate and how their practices formulate ideas and solve problems and things. It's it's a it's constantly learning, I think. But one thing we do, we're very aware of, and we could look right back through the annals of our history, is the need for project champions. Architects always are generally doing their best work when they're well supported by some amazing person.
John Wardle:
17:57
It's often a very singular thing, and our history is full of people that have been there and provided critical moments of support, either in the engagement side of things or the the, the continued lobbying that often we require to get a building built beautifully. And, so finding those people, and formulating the relationship, And I think being very genuine in our desire for a really intimate relationship, and perhaps it comes out of our residential work, but the friendships we that we form that are very genuine, these relationships that then transcend often single projects, really where some of the rewards of our type of practice, sit.
Dave Sharp:
18:48
Jasmine, in terms of you developing the Sydney practice, and I I guess as a practice overall sort of expanding your network of relationships sort of in the Sydney world, how have you have adapted the approach to your own kind of way of doing it? Is there a slight variation on that idea of, like, finding those those champions out there in the world of libraries and the medical system and the education system or whatever or or the cultural sector. How have you kind of gone about it, I guess, in a sense?
Jasmin Williamson:
19:19
Yes. Look, it's been, wonderful to come back to my home city after being work working with John in Melbourne for many years. So, much of the initial return was about reconnection with those that I knew before. And it wasn't as though I was fully disconnected. It's just, when you're back on the ground and you're here every day and you've got the ability to go and meet with people, you know, at any time.
Jasmin Williamson:
19:46
It's, so much more convenient to do that. Of recent times, it's been just real really broadening my, outreach. So I've just been thinking about, you know, who are those key, organizations or key people that I really want to know and how do I get to know them. And John's been a wonderful mentor for me to to broaden my connectivity here, you know, and giving you know, you have to be quite creative in the way that you're going about these things. And, the approach is not necessarily the same for each organizational person.
Jasmin Williamson:
20:24
So, it's been quite a creative endeavor, I I think, in the last particularly in the last couple of years for me. So it's been really exciting.
Dave Sharp:
20:33
I think that step about identifying key organizations and key people is really, really key. Right? That's the first thing you have to do because I think there's a, I guess, a sense that some people when they get into this stuff, they just have a very untargeted approach in a way that they're not making choices about, as you said creatively about what are the right types of organizations we would like to work with and the right types of projects we would like to work on that would be a good fit. Do you guys have, like, a a vision board up on the wall of, like, all these beautiful organizations you would one day like to sort of manifest a relationship with? We'd love to work with, you know, this this arts or culture organization, that art gallery, that sort of thing?
Dave Sharp:
21:12
Or is it a is it a
Jasmin Williamson:
21:13
little bit? We're not that we're not that well organized. But, we we often talk about, you know, good synergies between our practice and those those people or those those organisations. And, you know, find that find that that way and that opportunity. But, you know, I've I've got a particular passion for, you know, the way that our work can shape the city here.
Jasmin Williamson:
21:44
So, you know, I've kind of got a bit of a bias towards those types of projects or really public community type projects. Others in the in my team here have, you know, love working on schools, you know. So it's it's really quite broad. But for me, I you know, it's it's been a really interesting learning, process for me to sort of put myself out there and and not kind of worry about saying people saying no, you know. But at least at least the, you know, the initial contact's been made.
Jasmin Williamson:
22:18
And you never know when there's, an opportunity ahead. Much of what, I think we do in practice is, and and also the growth of our practice has been, as John said, it's been opportunistic. So we've kind of followed our way gut feel, and then there's been opportunities that have unfolded. And we've had to respond and react really quickly to grab hold of those, but creative in a creative way in how we convert the the opportunities. It's it's tricky.
Jasmin Williamson:
22:48
It's hard. But, yeah, it's been it's been a good, good thing for me to, kind of put myself out there in that regard.
John Wardle:
22:58
Often, we we just we will consider an organization we might see or read something really interesting about an organization, think there's something about them or that person that would be great to work with, very hard to then make a connection. I mean, it's something we're not particularly attuned to as a a practice. It's it's much better if somebody's been attracted to us through previous work and us really trying to establish something where nothing exists, but we do from time to time. I've I've I gave a a small part of a large talk to some of our staff. So one of the chapters of this was, I think, something along lines of tenacity in the 2 and a half percent chance, which was my sort of attitude to generally, I just don't worry about the odds and often I'm I'm talking to others.
John Wardle:
23:54
I'm trying to get rid of somebody, you know, that that line of thought might oh, they'll never come at that or that won't work or whatever. If an idea seems good enough, put some shape around it, develop it to a certain point before worrying about what the odds of success are, and we've had some amazing moments of success in our practice where we've kind of beat the odds without even being fully aware of what the odds ever ever were. And I just think there's something nice and, it's kind of reckless about that aspect of the creative process where you actually literally take speculation on success out of your initial sort of creative leap.
Dave Sharp:
24:38
Does that tend to come up more for you in terms of how you guys are engaging in the design process, or is this something more to does it also carry over to kind of opportunities and competitions or potential organizations to work with and those sorts of things? Is it more through the creative risk taking or putting a a riskier idea forward to a client? Is that where you're kind of coming from with that?
John Wardle:
24:59
Yeah. Pretty much. It's it's it's translating a conceptual idea into a a developed idea before presenting to others without worrying too much about, some of the things that may constrain it, which is dangerous and it means that we do, from time to time, do a lot of work that falls on fellow ground as a consequence. But, and and, unfortunately, you do learn much more from your failures than your successes in life, and we often will harvest ideas out of failed competitions, and often in a lot of materials or systems or some kind of unusual spatial planning might come out of a a failed competition. So we do harvest some of our phase, quite constantly.
John Wardle:
25:55
Yeah.
Dave Sharp:
25:56
You mentioned earlier on, John, that you're always entering into these new typologies, always trying to do the next type of project we've never done before. And I'm interested in how that works and why, apart from just this idea of we like having a diversity of types of projects. I'm interested in, not from a business perspective necessarily, but just interested in the idea of why that's been a consistent pattern over time to want to always try and push that boundary or do something different. So just more interesting? That could be the simple answer.
John Wardle:
26:31
Well, that you've just answered your own question.
Dave Sharp:
26:34
Yeah.
John Wardle:
26:35
And but it it does give us problem. And we we always love the challenge of God. Wouldn't that be an incredible sight? A great client brief and something something that we haven't yet done as kind of the ultimate commission. It does disadvantage us greatly in this competitive world that we're very much a part of as a larger practice.
John Wardle:
26:57
If we have to particularly now with the focus on housing, we're we're very keen to get back into some of the areas that were really our traditional foothold with, assisted living housing and and other forms of supported social housing projects, which was our a lot of our very early work. Hard for us to compete with a firm that does nothing but high high or medium density housing and have all the templates and the processes and the staff willing to just roll out one project time after the other. I, I don't think our staff would let us get away with that. I think if we had a yeah. They they were they're constantly asking us, well, great.
John Wardle:
27:41
Look, I've worked on this amazing heart hospital the last 2 years. Can can I make sure I go into a project of a different scale or type next or whatever? But it's also where our our enthusiasms lie. But it does it it it does give us quite a significant problem with our, when competing, in all of those sectors where we're against people who are doing nothing but or have a primary focus on that area. Do you
Dave Sharp:
28:09
find that you take the risk that you go for the 2.5% odds, but when you're successful with it, when you get the client that knowingly goes, they haven't done this thing before, but they've given us an idea about doing something different or and research and exploring something new. When you when you eventually get the client that's on board with that, that's where it's really special and something really good happens. We have to lose a lot of things with all the people that don't wanna take the chance, and then we get the one, and then we go, brilliant. That's the killer project.
John Wardle:
28:41
Yep. Yep. And we could chat the whole course of the history of our practice through those kinds of of moments of success and and simultaneously remind us of the many failures along the way to those moments. Yep. We would like to increase the frequency of those moments of success, mind you.
John Wardle:
29:01
Mind you, let me not let me not dispel the idea that we only wanna do one of everything, we would like to do another foot law courts.
Dave Sharp:
29:08
We would like to, you know, and
John Wardle:
29:10
and desperate to do another museum or gallery or whatever, you know, we we don't want to, just so that this thesis should be should be where then really better explained that these things happen. We we what do we we don't wanna constantly do one area, but, yes, having invested so much for one project, we would certainly like to do some more work in virtually all of these areas. But it is just great to have that incredible spread of work.
Dave Sharp:
29:40
When you're coming to a situation where you can't show them a sort of an example of a project that exactly matches what they're looking for, but you have to draw upon other types of projects and sort of tease out what their qualities are and put together a kind of a coherent story about, you know, what you might bring to this this new project. How do you sort of figure out amongst this vast portfolio of work that you've done over time? How do you figure out what the right mix is?
John Wardle:
30:05
I had a theory years ago when we had no commercial work, but the the opportunity to to present to some commercial developers that we had nothing to show them. Show show them all of our beach houses to get the aspirations going that if the project was if the project was success they could they could then get us to do the beach house, which is kind of a reversal of scale. That didn't work at all for many, many years. Commercial projects until one that's, that we were engaged with. But we did win a competition for GrowCon as they were there, early on where, we'd never done a tall building before at all.
John Wardle:
30:46
And we got all of our houses, mainly beach houses that they were in those days. So we did a computer model of all of them step end to end vertically to equal the height of this 40 story building we're competing for, the QV side. And it was amazing image. It looked it looked great. All these houses morphed into it and said scale is nothing.
John Wardle:
31:05
It's just if you put all our houses together, of course, they'd equal the scale of a 40 story building. And, to his great credit, Daniel Grollo accepted the challenge of taking us on.
Jasmin Williamson:
31:15
That's a very good I don't know if I've heard that story, John. That's very funny. You know, we we always look we try to understand who we're presenting to. You know, we don't really know them and but we really try to to, you know, what's gonna be of interest to them and what's of particular interest for their project. And then we'll, you know, look critically at our own work.
Jasmin Williamson:
31:36
And a good example is the work that we've done here at 477 Pitt Street. If you walk into this lobby space, it's almost like what you would experience in a university building, not really a commercial building. So we're always looking to draw ideas and lessons from other building types and how they can really, you know, enhance and push forward a new a new, you know, commercial lobby space that's really quite unique and, you know, really challenges the perception of what that space could be like. And in this particular instance, our client, OSPT, really, really got it. And it was the the timing of of this work was was really well aligned, you know, coming out of the COVID years and bringing people back into the workplace.
Jasmin Williamson:
32:25
And, you know, what what sort of, spaces can we design that really engage the tenants in the building and want them to be here and, you know, an extension of their workplace. So I think we're always just looking for, you know, just key similarities from other projects that we can really, you know, showcase to to these clients.
Dave Sharp:
32:49
Do you generally find that the projects that you work on are with clients, they're particularly interested in the work that you do anyway. Right? I mean, in a lot of cases. So imagine over time, that also makes it easier where they're also coming with their own set of references in terms of some of your other projects and work that they're more familiar with. Does that become like a really good sign that we're onto something good if if if they're talking about, you know, parts of some of your other projects that they've seen and things like that?
Jasmin Williamson:
33:13
Oh, always. I mean, it's quite often quite surprising, the projects that resonate with with our clients. They'll they'll come out, you know, with something that you never quite expected. But it may be because of a simple reason they walk past it every morning, you know, on their way to work or something. So, yeah, it's, it's lovely when that happens.
Jasmin Williamson:
33:33
But, it's always good to, you know, keep them on their toes and show them something new that they might not have expected that we've done or
Dave Sharp:
33:40
You're saying, Jasmine, that sometimes it's interesting the references that people can bring, and I sort of also wonder about the the way that you guys do work across different scale. And, John, like you were saying, let's show them the beach houses. Makes me wonder, what does something like, you know, the local project film about your house, John, which I don't know how many million views that's got on YouTube at this point. I sort of wonder, have you noticed that impact of your own house or that sort of personal side to it or really, like, looking at at that? Has that come up in surprising ways in the day to day work with these, like, you know, large institutional clients?
John Wardle:
34:17
Yeah. Look. It's it's very hard to gauge. It certainly does. There's no direct connection you can make to securing a new commission.
John Wardle:
34:26
Just doesn't happen that way. But but does it what it is, does it open a door into the practice? Practices, we can be quite insulated from the world that we work within. Much of our work is really intense and, set within the studio environment. And so things such as that are great because they literally provide a means that, enable people to see both how we function or see the characters that that they haven't yet met, and and observe them critically, from afar.
John Wardle:
35:11
Yeah. So, yeah, very, very meaningful for us.
Dave Sharp:
35:14
Yeah. Gave people maybe a bit more of an insight. I guess also, you know, a lot of that film really emphasized the careful choice around, you know, materiality and tiles from Japan and this sort of like real richness in the work. And I think that's essentially what you're trying to communicate that sets you apart from the template churn it out sort of practices. You know?
Dave Sharp:
35:37
So I think it's good, relatable example that everyone could kind of get their head around. And on that, I guess, on that topic of the role that the houses play or or, I guess, like domestic projects, I guess there's just something to be said for how popular they can become in comparison to larger scale projects in terms of the amount of, like, endless media coverage and social media engagement and just so much visibility come through residential projects that you guys do. And I sort of wonder if that's something that you found is beneficial just from a, I don't know, recognition and brand awareness kind of perspective as well.
Jasmin Williamson:
36:10
Oh, it absolutely no doubt is. Yeah. We've had some fascinating clients come to us just because they've, you know, love Brynn the the work that John's done on Brynnie Island. That's been an an immense, immensely wonderful, series of projects to have in in the portfolio. And, you know, probably one in Sydney was a a school client came to us because they loved the work on Bruny Island.
Jasmin Williamson:
36:38
They didn't come for for another house. They came because they could see the way that those ideas could translate to their site. So I think there's endless potential in the way that those places can, be you know, enable us to win to win work. But also show, you know, how we can be really, you know, we can design beautiful things with very simple materials as well. Like, Bruny Island, that that beautiful roof form.
Jasmin Williamson:
37:07
And it's just so I've been there a number of times, and it's just the the way it's sighted, the way it, you know, has moments and glimpses down into the valley. It's just absolutely, you know, beautiful in in the in that regard. So, I know, John, you've you've done so many generous things with institute talks and all these people coming through. It's been, you know, wonderful to broaden its reach beyond the practice and immediate clients. So it's it's been a nice, you know, 3rd place for us to work when we go down.
John Wardle:
37:42
Mhmm. Yeah. Look. The work I'm so so pleased to hear Jasmine. I I do like hearing that from others because I think, it's where, again, we we we take out that predictive requirement.
John Wardle:
37:59
We we bought Bruni as a family thing to get away from the world, and over time, I've invited the world to come and visit. We've had the Utzon Symposium there and these amazing symposium now that we've organized. I think we've now had 3 of down there as well as Tasmanian narratives. There's a whole lot of things have really extended the value of that property. So it's nice as a family.
John Wardle:
38:27
We've enjoyed the idea. We think it's a very special place. We think we have a duty of care to to it. It's a remarkable landscape, so we feel deeply the responsibility of our own ownership. But to share with other people then becomes, I think, part of that responsibility, not only the environmental care, but the idea of extending it out as a place that we can invite others to come and then script good reasons for coming.
John Wardle:
38:56
It's it's the the the range of different things we've done, the bright ideas we've had, the people we've shared the place with have caused some incredible things to occur there that would have never been considered when we were thinking about buying a farm off an island off Tasmania all those years ago. And for us, it's it's one of those things that is now part of the identity of the practice of having this third studio space, which is a vast landscape on an ancient coastline.
Dave Sharp:
39:30
So you're saying the next time we record this podcast episode, we can do it from Bruny Island, and that'd be exciting. I suppose in terms of the future of the practice in a way, you know, you're kind of talking almost there about a sort of a legacy with that project and about how it sort of gets kind of a bit taken over by the the design world. It becomes kind of their place on Bruny Island a little bit, which is kind of nice, expanding into other other states, other places now beyond just going into different types of projects, but now look different locations. I guess also looking internationally at the future of the studio as well. Also recently, you know, kind of rebranding, renaming to have a more kind of evenly spread out focus, I suppose, in terms of, like, the the the leadership of the practice.
Dave Sharp:
40:15
What do you guys have cooking behind the scenes in terms of where's this all going? What's what are these big plans that we've got bubbling away?
Jasmin Williamson:
40:22
Oh, we've always got big plans, but we, look, I think any practice needs to constantly innovate, and in the way that they wanna project themselves forward. And I think we wanna be a practice that, you know, really has the essence of what John has created from that first day and evolved. But we wanna absolutely project it forward and be vibrant and, you know, clever and, you know, innovative. And and to do that, we've gotta challenge each other constantly to be thinking, you know, we can't just resort to our, you know, usual prosaic processes of delivering architecture through conventional means. So that's something that we, the partners, constantly talk about and, something that we need to challenge each other to continue to do because, we, you know, we wanna be, you know, a really, really amazing vibrant place that we have staff who love to come to work for us, but we also do incredible work, in in in, you know, across Australia and internationally.
Jasmin Williamson:
41:33
So it's, it's always work in progress, and there's always areas of refinement.
John Wardle:
41:39
Yeah. Well, this look. This, in fact, many aspects to to that question. One one is the idea of the Sydney studio, and that was that we felt studio growth was interesting. We were getting, to a stage where we felt it was dangerous for a practice to be too large in the in the setting, that we occur within, and maybe we should stop the growth of the Melbourne practice.
John Wardle:
42:07
And if we were to grow as a practice through opportunity, and so much of that is elsewhere, let's have another base, and Sydney was the obvious place to do that. And we had worked in Sydney for many years, so and we had a good catalog of work there. And Jasmine was from there. So there's there's a whole series of things that, that suggested Sydney to be the place that then would take on the growth. There's no strict ruling to this, but our our sort of very fuzzy thesis, which we're good at good at fuzzy thesis, it was that maybe everything that wasn't in Victoria would be done from the Sydney studio.
John Wardle:
42:51
So that would be its imprimatur. We equally do it. We work in Brisbane and Perth at the moment in Hull recently, And maybe that could be the way that it would grow by doing everything that's not in Melbourne. Rather than Melbourne trying to feel, we have to respond to the demands of of work in other in other places. We're very keen to do a project.
John Wardle:
43:17
It doesn't even have to be a large project, but a project in the northern hemisphere. We are doing a series of projects in China. The first of those is about to be completed. The second is well underway, and the third is has commenced, which is great for us. And so we've we've then honed our skills.
John Wardle:
43:36
Matthew Van Koy, one of our partners, has really secured that work and then made that happen. So that's something really defines a lot of what Matthew brings to the practice. And but we really want to see that as a as a staging post for doing a a project, a university project in the northern hemisphere or some housing or whatever, mind you, it's a it's a it's a broad ambition we haven't actually worked much on, but we hope someone might just fall in our laps. But, yeah, just the thought that that now in and so many of our skills of communication, and honed during COVID of working remotely, would allow us, we know, to work in many other places. We're now particularly good at that, and we could touch on that.
John Wardle:
44:30
But the other thing is for a long time now, we've been a practice that sought collaboration with others, often geographically, a firm of architects or another state, then from there to firms of other architects and other practitioners that have particular skills that we don't have. And and so that was also, I think, probably our our great wish to go elsewhere is to actually do that, in concert with another one or a series of of of of design professionals.
Dave Sharp:
45:03
So that collaboration allows you to sort of bridge that gap of not necessarily being on the ground there in that city. During COVID and during, you know, those times, a lot of architects I was working with, their employees moved to different states and, you know, a lot of people came back to Perth or went home to Queensland or whatever. It opened up a lot of opportunities for those practices to think about setting up a studio, a new studio in that other city because there's somebody we've got somebody there and we can start looking at it. First, it's very hard for a lot of practices to really navigate that and to build a solid presence in that place and to be seen to be part of that local scene and not seen as they're based in Melbourne, but they've got like a remote employee somewhere kind of thing. So you were already doing projects in Sydney and some of these other places, but was it something that you got really right about the way that you made the official Sydney practice kind of start and how you kind of went about sort of coming into Sydney in the right way that you look back on and think that was a good way to actually you guys No.
John Wardle:
46:07
No. We exactly emulated the the the the original commencement of this practice. It took it took a wilder fire. We've got our way cautiously and slowly and, yeah, Jasmine, take over here, but it did certainly took longer and and it has been a more intriguing
Jasmin Williamson:
46:28
Yes. As John as John said, you do learn more from your failures and your successes. So it's been, yeah. Look, it has been it has been challenging, but it's it's been, I think in in in recent in the last couple of years, particularly, I think we've really, grounded ourselves really well here now. And we've, particularly after COVID, we we had we had a whole series of really wonderful, lunch series called Our City Series where we invited others into the studio.
Jasmin Williamson:
47:08
It happened in Melbourne, but also in Sydney. And it was just a wonderful way of really, supercharging our connectivity to those that in in the city that we wanted to know. And and and many of those were reconnecting with old friends of the practice, and others were very much new to us. But, being here at 477 Pitt Street, it's really allowed us you know, having a really beautiful dedicated studio space allowed us to do these sorts of things. And, and it's really been been a wonderful success in that regard.
Jasmin Williamson:
47:44
How how many projects have come out of that, you know, okay. See how that unfolds in time. But, we must we must, do all of these sorts of things, to sort of take us out of our day to day kind of, you know, you know, working processes.
John Wardle:
48:01
Jess, do you wanna talk to perhaps what are the other of our partners group sort of bring to their roles in the practice?
Jasmin Williamson:
48:07
Oh, yes. Absolutely. Yeah. I was gonna mention that for all of, you know, I've been incredibly supported by all the partners with our ambition up here. So Megan Dwyer, has been with the practice for much longer than me, and she has incredible experience in the education, tertiary education sector and also life sciences, sector.
Jasmin Williamson:
48:30
She's currently work leading our Australian Institute of Infectious Diseases project that John mentioned earlier. James Loder, Jimmy, he's, one of our key designers in the practice. He's, just an incredible he's a absolute gun designer. Works beautifully hand in hand with you, John. It's lovely to see the way you 2 work together.
Jasmin Williamson:
48:55
And Jimmy's also, really studiously mentoring quite a broad group of designers across Sydney and Melbourne. And those designers are working, you know, taking a design lead on projects or perhaps they're doing a lot of 3 day modeling or rendering or, you know, looking at other aspects of researching design. So Jimmy's really, driving that, across the practice. And and Matthew Van Kooij, as John mentioned, who's leading our work in China, is also leading much of our commercial, sector work. And he's, yeah.
Jasmin Williamson:
49:34
He's he, in fact, hosted we hosted a talk at the studio last night in Melbourne on adaptive reuse that Matthew led and brought all of those groups together. I was speaking with him this morning. It sounded like it was a wonderful event to bring people into the studio. So but all all of the partners come up to Sydney. John was here last week.
Jasmin Williamson:
49:55
Matthew was here the week before. So there's there's definitely, a lot of support and, and, you know, interest in what we're doing here. It's very much one studio, approach.
Dave Sharp:
50:07
What if the this is just a question that relates to kind of succession and this idea of building the profile and reputation of partners as a group rather than just a single director or founding director as yourself, John, that I work with some bigger practices that may be sort of, you know, 2nd or 3rd generation sort of practices. And sometimes it gets pointed out that one of the challenges of not having the kind of one individual as the kind of the face or the of the of the front person of the practice brand. It's harder to create that sense of this clear design thing coming from one person, which of course is a sort of a myth, right, in terms of, like, it's a collective effort of so many people involved and all that sort of thing. But it's brought up to me sometimes that it's it feels like sometimes practices that have that kind of that individual that is out there publicly, they're sort of seen as doing something a little bit different. And that when you've got, like, a broader leadership team, it can be challenging to sort of see, like, what what's pushing that kind of that design idea.
Dave Sharp:
51:08
So I'm just wondering I I don't know if I'm setting up a completely wrong premise here, but I'm just interested in your thoughts on, like, have you felt that once you've actually moved more to a structure where it's sort of saying, we're a group of partners, we're a leadership team, has there been anything that you've picked up or any noticeable challenges with that in terms of, I guess, like, perception of the practice or the design thinking or anything like that? Just I'm just interested in your thoughts on this issue.
John Wardle:
51:31
Yeah. And it's a it's a very complex issue, and to be authentic is really important. I think part of what you're talking about is authenticity here. So when we were a smaller practice, I would be attending a meeting as the sole designer or primary designer, And so I would talk with a real heartfelt authenticity about the design I was presenting to a a a family or a group of people or whoever. But what probably still is the benefit of a practice such as theirs is that I am still, I exemplify the or I think authentically the culture of design in the practice and has a personality and it come and stories and all of those sort of things that actually embed culture and and give light to other to allow others to, find their way and to understand the the cult the design culture for practice.
John Wardle:
52:29
So and that's that's very important in my role. So I think there's still we've we've managed as a practice to have our under our clients better understand the collaborative framework that we engage with here, and the authentic experience of appreciating the processes of design through constant meeting with people who are actually engaged with the design of their building. It's no there's not sort of you're meeting with a senior partner and somebody in the back room is actually doing the work. So when we engage, I might very often be at the meeting, but not always, but there would always be at least one member of the design team there to talk very authentically about and and and personally about the trials and tribulations and joys and and great moments along the journey of designing their building. And I think that's still evident in the way we all then interact with design being in the narrative that comes out of a a specific design being paramount in our interaction with others?
Jasmin Williamson:
53:47
I would would just say that the there's always been a strong emphasis on each designer having their own voice and finding their own authentic expression of of the design. But it's I think what John says is that there's a lot of I think what you're saying right is is I've observed, John, is that there's a lot of, you know, there's there's sort of a a framework that the designers kind of understand within which they operate. And I think, this sort of common language that exists across the design team. But when it comes to that moment of meeting with a client and explaining an idea, there's definitely an authenticity to each of them. They're all quite unique, and they've all got their little, you know, different personalities and quirks and, you know, wonderful idiosyncrasies.
Jasmin Williamson:
54:40
And that kind of comes out, and the clients get to to see that. But they, you know, I think it still, sits within a really lovely framework that we all understand. And I'm I don't necessarily sit down and design myself. You know, I have a different role in the practice, but quite often I have to go and present design ideas, you know, with the designer. So it's, it's just finding that language that, you know, expresses the collective design team, but also, you know, pushing your own authenticity forward as well.
Jasmin Williamson:
55:19
And I think was it's the the practice has matured in a really lovely way to be able to do that, I think.
Dave Sharp:
55:27
How do you translate the essence of the founding director into a framework that can then just become this kind of it's not just about, you know, the practice enacting kind of what would John do for the rest of his it's it's it's not not in any way, but but in terms of going, look, this practice as a whole, it's got its own distinctive DNA and quality and something to it that is its own kind of it's integral to it. How do you sort of make sure as the organization gets bigger that there's just a coherence to what we're doing and, and a consistency over time that so that what we're doing now connects to, you know, this body of work that's grown over time.
John Wardle:
56:10
It's it's difficult. It and and we stumble from time to time. We do stumble more internally, I think, and are constantly trying to reappraise, a design studio culture and the the mechanics of that internally so that it can be spirited and at times and freewheeling. Really important that we don't constrain it by, by too much heavy process. I mean, we've gotta be really careful that the intuitive aspects of design are really nurtured.
John Wardle:
56:45
So but then orchestrating opportunities for design expression within the practice is constantly challenged. And I wouldn't I couldn't say we've always done it well, I think we do these times of of, yeah, treading on toes and sensitivities and all those sorts of things that are really part and parcel of people coming together, and and drawing together the the the the quite separate approaches and different mindsets and different skills and experiences of many people into into a collaborative environment. It is it is, at best, absolutely joyful and incredibly productive creatively and also challenging and, and and constantly being reconsidered. I mean, it's a it's a talking point in our studio, partnership level, but a very broad discussion about how to better broaden design authorship, draw in ideas, find those within a larger practice who have those conceptual ideas, and finding out mechanisms, I think, of of that allow, a larger practice to observe the talents within and allowing for me to exist. It it's it's a, it's really it's why some small practices failed to grow, and and the challenge of growth to allow that to, occur is is one of those scripts that almost can't be written, you know, and we're constantly reconsidering that very thing.
John Wardle:
58:35
And now with AI being integrated into a lot of what we do, a whole new raft of skill sets and ways methods of of working together, and some really fascinating things that we're currently undertaking with being led by James Loder and Tom, one of the other key contributors here, is then a further layer of iteration now is upon us at this at this very time of the way working.
Jasmin Williamson:
59:08
For us, like, we often reflect on the essence of when we've been incredibly at our best. So what what contributed to that essence, that DNA? You know, what were all the the ingredients that just made us absolutely fly and, you know, and and and then try and bring some of those attributes back. For me, you know, I've been with the practice for many, many years. So it's so important that I garner that essence.
Jasmin Williamson:
59:39
But then I are able to project it forward and still look, innovatively, creatively, strategically. Because if we don't evolve, everything will evolve around us and we'll just be left, you know, doing what we were doing. So, but you should never lose that essence of, you know, when you were at your best, whenever that moment was. It could be last week or it could be 10 years ago. It doesn't man matter when it was.
Jasmin Williamson:
01:00:06
But, I think that's that's really important, because, yeah, that's that's essentially part of every practice's DNA.
Dave Sharp:
01:00:16
Jasmine, John, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
John Wardle:
01:00:19
Good. Good day. It's been great. Glad to share the time with you.
Dave Sharp:
01:00:29
That was my conversation with John Wardle and Jasmine Williamson from WardleStudio. Studio. If you'd like to learn more about their work, you can visit Wardle.studio or follow them on Instagram at Wardle.studio. Office Talk is hosted by Office Dave Sharp, a strategic marketing and brand definition practice for architecture. We work collaboratively with clients across the globe, so to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit office dave sharp.com.
Dave Sharp:
01:00:55
Today's episode of Office Talk was edited and engineered by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwelling Studio. That's all for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next time.
00:00
Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of Office Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy, marketing, and PR services tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp.com to learn more or follow the practice on Instagram at officedavesharp. Joining me on the show today are John Wardle and Jasmine Williamson of Wardle Studio. A highly recognized gold medal winning practice known for creating extraordinary buildings in places that matter.
Dave Sharp:
00:43
In this episode, John Jasmine and I discussed the practice's evolution from the early days of small but highly considered residential projects to the broad range of sectors and scales they work in today. We looked at their process for pitching for new work when entering new sectors and how they identify the right ideas and details from other projects in their portfolio to draw on as inspiration for potential clients. We discussed why John believes that not having previous built work on a project typology can be advantageous for the client, but can also come with some challenges when competing against efficient practices that specialize in that area. We looked at the thinking behind their recent rebranding of the studio and decision to shift the focus from John to the other partners, who each bring a different voice to the practice. And finally, we spoke about their recent expansion into the Sydney market and how a practice like Wardle goes about building relationships and brand awareness in a short space of time.
Dave Sharp:
01:34
So I hope you enjoy my conversation with John and Jasmine from Wardle Studio. John and Jasmine, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
John Wardle:
01:46
Thank you, Jay. Good to be here with you.
Dave Sharp:
01:48
So I think it's always good to start with maybe a little bit of background on the practice and how it started and the evolution. Take us back to the kind of the early days of the studio, maybe, John.
John Wardle:
01:58
Well, the practice started what now seems to be a a lifetime ago, 30 something years ago. It was it seemed a vast ambition to even call it John Wardle Architects as we were then. It was very much just me on my own. It was a practice that was sort of slow to fire. I've often said I was genetically unsuited for this coming from generations of of school teachers, scientists, and everything else.
John Wardle:
02:29
I think probably the first person to ever start a business in on either side of my family, so it was something that sort of was I always felt I came to a stranger to to the commerce side of running an architectural practice. And for that reason alone, I think we were we, muddled along quite nicely doing small I think quite delicate, well considered, but small projects for quite a few years before, through opportunity, very often the generosity of others, people that saw evidence in very small work of things that could be larger and took us on. And, we've it is certainly a practice that's been there due to the patronage, generosity, and largess of others in each of the many phases of our growth.
Dave Sharp:
03:17
And, Jasmine, what was your origin story with Wardle in terms of joining the studio and kind of your background a little bit as well? Because I'm kinda curious to hear that story too.
Jasmin Williamson:
03:26
Well, I joined, the practice, many, many years ago, and I've I've experienced a a solid part of that 30 odd years of practice. I checked this morning. I've been with the practice for 17 years this year, which is quite extraordinary, in in in fact. And when I joined, I was very much, a young unregistered graduate, who didn't know very much about what I was doing whatsoever and had come from a practice that was very much working on small renovation type project residential focus projects. And, the the practice really threw me in the deep end and offered me this wonderful opportunity to work on some amazing public, civic projects, the first being, 500 Burke Street in Melbourne.
Jasmin Williamson:
04:17
And we did an incredible adaptive reuse piece on that on that project, for a really important client that I have come to know, through other projects since then, ISPT. But, that was quite a revelation for me, on all facets of practice from early design phases right through to delivery and working with contractors.
Dave Sharp:
04:42
So being there around that sort of time when the practice was making that sort of transition to the larger public scale work. It's a topic we like talking about a lot on the podcast because a lot of small practices are wanting to do more public work in larger scale work one day and and they're sort of always curious to think about how do you solve that kind of chicken and egg problem of not having done those kinds of projects and then venturing into that area, and the barriers to entry can sometimes be pretty hard. And I guess things have probably changed a little bit over the last 20 years in terms of opportunities for smaller practices. What's the secret recipe of the move to going from beautiful residential work to beautiful public projects. And I guess, like, you touched on people seeing some potential, seeing something in the smaller work, John.
John Wardle:
05:24
Yeah. Look. It's it's very difficult. Ambition is a is an interesting thing to consider here because I what I often say is there was never an ambition to grow practice. Our practice growth has always been by going for a job, generally work that we hadn't ever done before, you know, breaking new ground into, you know, the first commercial building, the first civic building, the first university building, the 1st research building, all of these firsts, generally, and and some of them coming simultaneously caused the practice to grow, and and it it has been purely organic growth.
John Wardle:
06:04
We've never had a a business plan. We've never had a 5 year plan, haven't even had a 6 month plan, which is probably one of the conundrums we're currently facing. And so, you know, often hear of practices they'd like to be a practice of 50, and they work around that. We've never had that sort of I mean, we are ambitious in our own way, but never that. I think one of the things one of the the things I I do enjoy hearing about our practice is that we manage to transition from really articulate deeply thoughtful small buildings to the same up upscaling those those means of operation and and outcome to provide big and more public buildings that operate in the same level of detail intensity and thoughtfulness of of our small buildings.
John Wardle:
06:53
That probably comes out of self consciousness and nervous anxiety as much as anything that fear of failure, but it is something that's driven us to always maintain that aspect of what we do deeply appreciate ourselves about the world we live in, but what we know particularly through our that constant research of of of seeing how people operate in space, both private, communal, and public spaces, and and understanding that and feeling that we have a responsibility to to create buildings that are attuned to human experience.
Jasmin Williamson:
07:34
And it is wonderful when you you do meet a client who really gets that, they they can they can see that translation. I recall when we were working on we were bidding on a a new law court. We'd never that was another first for the practice. We'd never won a law court, and we thought, wow. Our odds on this are pretty slim.
Jasmin Williamson:
07:55
But we we spent a lot of time in the way that we were articulating exactly what John's described to this particular client. And you could see that they absolutely got it. And that was the reason that we you know, one of many reasons, but that was one of the key reasons that they told us later down that we were successful. Similarly, with a project here in Sydney, for a Western Sydney Council, We spoke to them about similar, you know, the way their staff and their community will come in and experience this building, from that moment of arrival on that threshold. And you move through the space and the experience that sort of the things that are very difficult to kind of quantify and describe, but the, experiential nature of that space.
Jasmin Williamson:
08:44
And I think that, you know, really resonated with that particular client as well.
Dave Sharp:
08:56
This episode of Office Talk is supported by Mast Furniture. Mast is an established furniture designer manufacturing company based in Brisbane. In operation since 2012 and climate neutral certified since 2021, MAST has built a national and international reputation for producing original furniture of the highest quality. For Mast, the phrase good design made right embodies who they are, what they do, what they'd like to achieve. MASK values enduring design, taking their time to develop well designed products both in house and in collaboration with established and upcoming designers.
Dave Sharp:
09:29
With all of their furniture being produced from their Brisbane workshop and made to order, the majority of their range is able to be customized in material, size, and finishes to suit specific projects and spaces in both residential and commercial environments. So to learn more about Mast, visit their website mastfurniture.com.au or check out their Instagram at mastfurniture. Do you think the clients in the public side sometimes get a bit of a bad rap unfairly that they very much play it by this kind of black and white, have you done it before kind of criteria? People would probably believe that, well, we'd have to have already done 5 law courts to get a law court. But is that maybe just a bit of a cop out in the in the industry a little bit to sort
John Wardle:
10:18
of Yeah. The the Victorian government architect for several years ago, Geoffrey London and Leon Van Schijk from RMIT wrote a book, can't think of the title of what I've have in our library, in fact, we bought about 20 copies to hand out to clients because I I liked its thesis, But it it it it was about how to engage, creative professionals for for projects that exist in the urban realm. And it said and its primary initial piece of advice is to take previous experience out of the equation altogether. The first the the founding principle of their whole thing was to take the need to have somebody have done hospitals, law courts, research rooms, whatever, out of it. And you can see by looking at the qualitative aspects of those projects as they exist, that generally, the best projects are done by people doing it for the first time or early introduction into a new area of work that research it well that garner all of the energies that you enthusiasm you would have for a new building type and implement new philosophies and new ways of of working rather than those that that just spin them out one after the other.
John Wardle:
11:36
You could just you can almost see that as we walk and look critically at the buildings that exist in our cities.
Dave Sharp:
11:44
When you sort of joined the practice, Jasmine, in that kind of period getting into the public work where I guess at that point, the reputation and profile, I'm imagining probably wasn't where it is today necessarily, like that that track record, like, putting experience back into the equation, I suppose, in terms of your experience being successful in lots of types of projects. You talked a minute ago, John, about this thing about doing these really refined, well articulated small buildings and large buildings and being able to transfer that across the scales and being known for that. Was there a time where that was really tested in the larger scale work? Were you under pressure? Was it difficult?
Dave Sharp:
12:22
Were the clients that you're working with all receptive to it? Did you occasionally have to work clients that didn't seem to get that?
John Wardle:
12:28
There's a couple of parts to the answer to that. One is we've never jettisoned types. The some practices as they've grown, we, would would no longer do housing. We lovingly still do housing. So that that range of scale of work we're doing a very small restaurant in a park at the moment where, and a house renovation and a series of small family homes at the same time we're doing our largest ever project, the Australian Institute of infectious diseases, a massive and complex project, and I think the constancy of of the variance is a good thing for all of the projects.
John Wardle:
13:11
So and and not only for the work itself, but the engagement with the people. At the same time, you're engaging with a couple over a family home, you're also having to advocate strongly to a large group of stakeholders over how they'll use their building and appreciate aspects of of maybe some new ideas that we want to engage with. So part of our way of doing that is is this, is the broad spectrum of of work that we do. But, yeah, in the other half of answering that question, the difficulties constantly, it is, I mean, it's just one of those things that the nature of our profession, we're always the odd person in the room. We could be there in a very large group with development managers and clients and other stakeholders and things, and it's the architect often that holds that space of, I think, probably self consciously feeling the responsibility of of speculating on the future, how this building will be perceived when it's finished, how how long it will serve its purpose for, how it will stand the test of time, we are holding that mantle constantly.
Dave Sharp:
14:24
Do you find that you sometimes have to be the bad cop in the room and be difficult sometimes about it? Maybe the other people are going, oh, come on. It'd be so much easier to just blah blah blah, and you're going you'll thank me later.
Jasmin Williamson:
14:37
In every project, we're always up up against the the usual, constraints, you know, that we all have to face with, rising construction costs, you know, pressure on program, all of those things that, you know, come to bear through the course of the of the project. And, of course, we're always very responsive, but we try to be responsive in a very creative way. So we're always pushing and challenging and finding opportunities, to just push beyond, with without, you know, irritating those development managers and, you know, construction people who were tasked with, you know, the final delivery and of the of the projects. But, I think one thing I've observed through my time is that as we have, maintained that breadth, of project scale and type, we've I think we've become really quite savvy in the way that we can design really strategically at scale when we need to. So when we're up against your backs are up against the wall, you know, and where the project's under financial pressure and all these complexities, many of which, we might have insight into and other times we don't.
Jasmin Williamson:
16:00
I think we've become really clever in designing, you know, really strategically about, okay, this is where we put our design effort, and this is where we can perhaps relax something. And holistically, the project can be quite, you know, equally as strong as it may have been if we if we, you know, didn't weren't encountering those constraints.
Dave Sharp:
16:22
So how do you find that the bringing in the the links to the other project types in that diverse range of project types can help in that situation where you feel like your back's against the wall with the project. Like, that's really interesting. Could you just go a bit more into that?
Jasmin Williamson:
16:35
One example is we're really inventive with the materials that we use and the materials that we choose, and and, we can be quite playful with with materials that are not, you know, super, you know, economically expensive. So I think just and that and a lot of those, those, you know, explorations can be can be played out through smaller scale projects that are quicker to deliver and, you know, you can research things quite quickly and but can easily translate into something at large scale and be quite economical at large scale.
Dave Sharp:
17:11
And John, what's your thoughts on situations?
John Wardle:
17:14
Often, and I know a lot of other architects, and I often look really deeply into the way practices function. I'm always intrigued by always questioning other friends in in the profession about how they operate and how their practices formulate ideas and solve problems and things. It's it's a it's constantly learning, I think. But one thing we do, we're very aware of, and we could look right back through the annals of our history, is the need for project champions. Architects always are generally doing their best work when they're well supported by some amazing person.
John Wardle:
17:57
It's often a very singular thing, and our history is full of people that have been there and provided critical moments of support, either in the engagement side of things or the the, the continued lobbying that often we require to get a building built beautifully. And, so finding those people, and formulating the relationship, And I think being very genuine in our desire for a really intimate relationship, and perhaps it comes out of our residential work, but the friendships we that we form that are very genuine, these relationships that then transcend often single projects, really where some of the rewards of our type of practice, sit.
Dave Sharp:
18:48
Jasmine, in terms of you developing the Sydney practice, and I I guess as a practice overall sort of expanding your network of relationships sort of in the Sydney world, how have you have adapted the approach to your own kind of way of doing it? Is there a slight variation on that idea of, like, finding those those champions out there in the world of libraries and the medical system and the education system or whatever or or the cultural sector. How have you kind of gone about it, I guess, in a sense?
Jasmin Williamson:
19:19
Yes. Look, it's been, wonderful to come back to my home city after being work working with John in Melbourne for many years. So, much of the initial return was about reconnection with those that I knew before. And it wasn't as though I was fully disconnected. It's just, when you're back on the ground and you're here every day and you've got the ability to go and meet with people, you know, at any time.
Jasmin Williamson:
19:46
It's, so much more convenient to do that. Of recent times, it's been just real really broadening my, outreach. So I've just been thinking about, you know, who are those key, organizations or key people that I really want to know and how do I get to know them. And John's been a wonderful mentor for me to to broaden my connectivity here, you know, and giving you know, you have to be quite creative in the way that you're going about these things. And, the approach is not necessarily the same for each organizational person.
Jasmin Williamson:
20:24
So, it's been quite a creative endeavor, I I think, in the last particularly in the last couple of years for me. So it's been really exciting.
Dave Sharp:
20:33
I think that step about identifying key organizations and key people is really, really key. Right? That's the first thing you have to do because I think there's a, I guess, a sense that some people when they get into this stuff, they just have a very untargeted approach in a way that they're not making choices about, as you said creatively about what are the right types of organizations we would like to work with and the right types of projects we would like to work on that would be a good fit. Do you guys have, like, a a vision board up on the wall of, like, all these beautiful organizations you would one day like to sort of manifest a relationship with? We'd love to work with, you know, this this arts or culture organization, that art gallery, that sort of thing?
Dave Sharp:
21:12
Or is it a is it a
Jasmin Williamson:
21:13
little bit? We're not that we're not that well organized. But, we we often talk about, you know, good synergies between our practice and those those people or those those organisations. And, you know, find that find that that way and that opportunity. But, you know, I've I've got a particular passion for, you know, the way that our work can shape the city here.
Jasmin Williamson:
21:44
So, you know, I've kind of got a bit of a bias towards those types of projects or really public community type projects. Others in the in my team here have, you know, love working on schools, you know. So it's it's really quite broad. But for me, I you know, it's it's been a really interesting learning, process for me to sort of put myself out there and and not kind of worry about saying people saying no, you know. But at least at least the, you know, the initial contact's been made.
Jasmin Williamson:
22:18
And you never know when there's, an opportunity ahead. Much of what, I think we do in practice is, and and also the growth of our practice has been, as John said, it's been opportunistic. So we've kind of followed our way gut feel, and then there's been opportunities that have unfolded. And we've had to respond and react really quickly to grab hold of those, but creative in a creative way in how we convert the the opportunities. It's it's tricky.
Jasmin Williamson:
22:48
It's hard. But, yeah, it's been it's been a good, good thing for me to, kind of put myself out there in that regard.
John Wardle:
22:58
Often, we we just we will consider an organization we might see or read something really interesting about an organization, think there's something about them or that person that would be great to work with, very hard to then make a connection. I mean, it's something we're not particularly attuned to as a a practice. It's it's much better if somebody's been attracted to us through previous work and us really trying to establish something where nothing exists, but we do from time to time. I've I've I gave a a small part of a large talk to some of our staff. So one of the chapters of this was, I think, something along lines of tenacity in the 2 and a half percent chance, which was my sort of attitude to generally, I just don't worry about the odds and often I'm I'm talking to others.
John Wardle:
23:54
I'm trying to get rid of somebody, you know, that that line of thought might oh, they'll never come at that or that won't work or whatever. If an idea seems good enough, put some shape around it, develop it to a certain point before worrying about what the odds of success are, and we've had some amazing moments of success in our practice where we've kind of beat the odds without even being fully aware of what the odds ever ever were. And I just think there's something nice and, it's kind of reckless about that aspect of the creative process where you actually literally take speculation on success out of your initial sort of creative leap.
Dave Sharp:
24:38
Does that tend to come up more for you in terms of how you guys are engaging in the design process, or is this something more to does it also carry over to kind of opportunities and competitions or potential organizations to work with and those sorts of things? Is it more through the creative risk taking or putting a a riskier idea forward to a client? Is that where you're kind of coming from with that?
John Wardle:
24:59
Yeah. Pretty much. It's it's it's translating a conceptual idea into a a developed idea before presenting to others without worrying too much about, some of the things that may constrain it, which is dangerous and it means that we do, from time to time, do a lot of work that falls on fellow ground as a consequence. But, and and, unfortunately, you do learn much more from your failures than your successes in life, and we often will harvest ideas out of failed competitions, and often in a lot of materials or systems or some kind of unusual spatial planning might come out of a a failed competition. So we do harvest some of our phase, quite constantly.
John Wardle:
25:55
Yeah.
Dave Sharp:
25:56
You mentioned earlier on, John, that you're always entering into these new typologies, always trying to do the next type of project we've never done before. And I'm interested in how that works and why, apart from just this idea of we like having a diversity of types of projects. I'm interested in, not from a business perspective necessarily, but just interested in the idea of why that's been a consistent pattern over time to want to always try and push that boundary or do something different. So just more interesting? That could be the simple answer.
John Wardle:
26:31
Well, that you've just answered your own question.
Dave Sharp:
26:34
Yeah.
John Wardle:
26:35
And but it it does give us problem. And we we always love the challenge of God. Wouldn't that be an incredible sight? A great client brief and something something that we haven't yet done as kind of the ultimate commission. It does disadvantage us greatly in this competitive world that we're very much a part of as a larger practice.
John Wardle:
26:57
If we have to particularly now with the focus on housing, we're we're very keen to get back into some of the areas that were really our traditional foothold with, assisted living housing and and other forms of supported social housing projects, which was our a lot of our very early work. Hard for us to compete with a firm that does nothing but high high or medium density housing and have all the templates and the processes and the staff willing to just roll out one project time after the other. I, I don't think our staff would let us get away with that. I think if we had a yeah. They they were they're constantly asking us, well, great.
John Wardle:
27:41
Look, I've worked on this amazing heart hospital the last 2 years. Can can I make sure I go into a project of a different scale or type next or whatever? But it's also where our our enthusiasms lie. But it does it it it does give us quite a significant problem with our, when competing, in all of those sectors where we're against people who are doing nothing but or have a primary focus on that area. Do you
Dave Sharp:
28:09
find that you take the risk that you go for the 2.5% odds, but when you're successful with it, when you get the client that knowingly goes, they haven't done this thing before, but they've given us an idea about doing something different or and research and exploring something new. When you when you eventually get the client that's on board with that, that's where it's really special and something really good happens. We have to lose a lot of things with all the people that don't wanna take the chance, and then we get the one, and then we go, brilliant. That's the killer project.
John Wardle:
28:41
Yep. Yep. And we could chat the whole course of the history of our practice through those kinds of of moments of success and and simultaneously remind us of the many failures along the way to those moments. Yep. We would like to increase the frequency of those moments of success, mind you.
John Wardle:
29:01
Mind you, let me not let me not dispel the idea that we only wanna do one of everything, we would like to do another foot law courts.
Dave Sharp:
29:08
We would like to, you know, and
John Wardle:
29:10
and desperate to do another museum or gallery or whatever, you know, we we don't want to, just so that this thesis should be should be where then really better explained that these things happen. We we what do we we don't wanna constantly do one area, but, yes, having invested so much for one project, we would certainly like to do some more work in virtually all of these areas. But it is just great to have that incredible spread of work.
Dave Sharp:
29:40
When you're coming to a situation where you can't show them a sort of an example of a project that exactly matches what they're looking for, but you have to draw upon other types of projects and sort of tease out what their qualities are and put together a kind of a coherent story about, you know, what you might bring to this this new project. How do you sort of figure out amongst this vast portfolio of work that you've done over time? How do you figure out what the right mix is?
John Wardle:
30:05
I had a theory years ago when we had no commercial work, but the the opportunity to to present to some commercial developers that we had nothing to show them. Show show them all of our beach houses to get the aspirations going that if the project was if the project was success they could they could then get us to do the beach house, which is kind of a reversal of scale. That didn't work at all for many, many years. Commercial projects until one that's, that we were engaged with. But we did win a competition for GrowCon as they were there, early on where, we'd never done a tall building before at all.
John Wardle:
30:46
And we got all of our houses, mainly beach houses that they were in those days. So we did a computer model of all of them step end to end vertically to equal the height of this 40 story building we're competing for, the QV side. And it was amazing image. It looked it looked great. All these houses morphed into it and said scale is nothing.
John Wardle:
31:05
It's just if you put all our houses together, of course, they'd equal the scale of a 40 story building. And, to his great credit, Daniel Grollo accepted the challenge of taking us on.
Jasmin Williamson:
31:15
That's a very good I don't know if I've heard that story, John. That's very funny. You know, we we always look we try to understand who we're presenting to. You know, we don't really know them and but we really try to to, you know, what's gonna be of interest to them and what's of particular interest for their project. And then we'll, you know, look critically at our own work.
Jasmin Williamson:
31:36
And a good example is the work that we've done here at 477 Pitt Street. If you walk into this lobby space, it's almost like what you would experience in a university building, not really a commercial building. So we're always looking to draw ideas and lessons from other building types and how they can really, you know, enhance and push forward a new a new, you know, commercial lobby space that's really quite unique and, you know, really challenges the perception of what that space could be like. And in this particular instance, our client, OSPT, really, really got it. And it was the the timing of of this work was was really well aligned, you know, coming out of the COVID years and bringing people back into the workplace.
Jasmin Williamson:
32:25
And, you know, what what sort of, spaces can we design that really engage the tenants in the building and want them to be here and, you know, an extension of their workplace. So I think we're always just looking for, you know, just key similarities from other projects that we can really, you know, showcase to to these clients.
Dave Sharp:
32:49
Do you generally find that the projects that you work on are with clients, they're particularly interested in the work that you do anyway. Right? I mean, in a lot of cases. So imagine over time, that also makes it easier where they're also coming with their own set of references in terms of some of your other projects and work that they're more familiar with. Does that become like a really good sign that we're onto something good if if if they're talking about, you know, parts of some of your other projects that they've seen and things like that?
Jasmin Williamson:
33:13
Oh, always. I mean, it's quite often quite surprising, the projects that resonate with with our clients. They'll they'll come out, you know, with something that you never quite expected. But it may be because of a simple reason they walk past it every morning, you know, on their way to work or something. So, yeah, it's, it's lovely when that happens.
Jasmin Williamson:
33:33
But, it's always good to, you know, keep them on their toes and show them something new that they might not have expected that we've done or
Dave Sharp:
33:40
You're saying, Jasmine, that sometimes it's interesting the references that people can bring, and I sort of also wonder about the the way that you guys do work across different scale. And, John, like you were saying, let's show them the beach houses. Makes me wonder, what does something like, you know, the local project film about your house, John, which I don't know how many million views that's got on YouTube at this point. I sort of wonder, have you noticed that impact of your own house or that sort of personal side to it or really, like, looking at at that? Has that come up in surprising ways in the day to day work with these, like, you know, large institutional clients?
John Wardle:
34:17
Yeah. Look. It's it's very hard to gauge. It certainly does. There's no direct connection you can make to securing a new commission.
John Wardle:
34:26
Just doesn't happen that way. But but does it what it is, does it open a door into the practice? Practices, we can be quite insulated from the world that we work within. Much of our work is really intense and, set within the studio environment. And so things such as that are great because they literally provide a means that, enable people to see both how we function or see the characters that that they haven't yet met, and and observe them critically, from afar.
John Wardle:
35:11
Yeah. So, yeah, very, very meaningful for us.
Dave Sharp:
35:14
Yeah. Gave people maybe a bit more of an insight. I guess also, you know, a lot of that film really emphasized the careful choice around, you know, materiality and tiles from Japan and this sort of like real richness in the work. And I think that's essentially what you're trying to communicate that sets you apart from the template churn it out sort of practices. You know?
Dave Sharp:
35:37
So I think it's good, relatable example that everyone could kind of get their head around. And on that, I guess, on that topic of the role that the houses play or or, I guess, like domestic projects, I guess there's just something to be said for how popular they can become in comparison to larger scale projects in terms of the amount of, like, endless media coverage and social media engagement and just so much visibility come through residential projects that you guys do. And I sort of wonder if that's something that you found is beneficial just from a, I don't know, recognition and brand awareness kind of perspective as well.
Jasmin Williamson:
36:10
Oh, it absolutely no doubt is. Yeah. We've had some fascinating clients come to us just because they've, you know, love Brynn the the work that John's done on Brynnie Island. That's been an an immense, immensely wonderful, series of projects to have in in the portfolio. And, you know, probably one in Sydney was a a school client came to us because they loved the work on Bruny Island.
Jasmin Williamson:
36:38
They didn't come for for another house. They came because they could see the way that those ideas could translate to their site. So I think there's endless potential in the way that those places can, be you know, enable us to win to win work. But also show, you know, how we can be really, you know, we can design beautiful things with very simple materials as well. Like, Bruny Island, that that beautiful roof form.
Jasmin Williamson:
37:07
And it's just so I've been there a number of times, and it's just the the way it's sighted, the way it, you know, has moments and glimpses down into the valley. It's just absolutely, you know, beautiful in in the in that regard. So, I know, John, you've you've done so many generous things with institute talks and all these people coming through. It's been, you know, wonderful to broaden its reach beyond the practice and immediate clients. So it's it's been a nice, you know, 3rd place for us to work when we go down.
John Wardle:
37:42
Mhmm. Yeah. Look. The work I'm so so pleased to hear Jasmine. I I do like hearing that from others because I think, it's where, again, we we we take out that predictive requirement.
John Wardle:
37:59
We we bought Bruni as a family thing to get away from the world, and over time, I've invited the world to come and visit. We've had the Utzon Symposium there and these amazing symposium now that we've organized. I think we've now had 3 of down there as well as Tasmanian narratives. There's a whole lot of things have really extended the value of that property. So it's nice as a family.
John Wardle:
38:27
We've enjoyed the idea. We think it's a very special place. We think we have a duty of care to to it. It's a remarkable landscape, so we feel deeply the responsibility of our own ownership. But to share with other people then becomes, I think, part of that responsibility, not only the environmental care, but the idea of extending it out as a place that we can invite others to come and then script good reasons for coming.
John Wardle:
38:56
It's it's the the the range of different things we've done, the bright ideas we've had, the people we've shared the place with have caused some incredible things to occur there that would have never been considered when we were thinking about buying a farm off an island off Tasmania all those years ago. And for us, it's it's one of those things that is now part of the identity of the practice of having this third studio space, which is a vast landscape on an ancient coastline.
Dave Sharp:
39:30
So you're saying the next time we record this podcast episode, we can do it from Bruny Island, and that'd be exciting. I suppose in terms of the future of the practice in a way, you know, you're kind of talking almost there about a sort of a legacy with that project and about how it sort of gets kind of a bit taken over by the the design world. It becomes kind of their place on Bruny Island a little bit, which is kind of nice, expanding into other other states, other places now beyond just going into different types of projects, but now look different locations. I guess also looking internationally at the future of the studio as well. Also recently, you know, kind of rebranding, renaming to have a more kind of evenly spread out focus, I suppose, in terms of, like, the the the leadership of the practice.
Dave Sharp:
40:15
What do you guys have cooking behind the scenes in terms of where's this all going? What's what are these big plans that we've got bubbling away?
Jasmin Williamson:
40:22
Oh, we've always got big plans, but we, look, I think any practice needs to constantly innovate, and in the way that they wanna project themselves forward. And I think we wanna be a practice that, you know, really has the essence of what John has created from that first day and evolved. But we wanna absolutely project it forward and be vibrant and, you know, clever and, you know, innovative. And and to do that, we've gotta challenge each other constantly to be thinking, you know, we can't just resort to our, you know, usual prosaic processes of delivering architecture through conventional means. So that's something that we, the partners, constantly talk about and, something that we need to challenge each other to continue to do because, we, you know, we wanna be, you know, a really, really amazing vibrant place that we have staff who love to come to work for us, but we also do incredible work, in in in, you know, across Australia and internationally.
Jasmin Williamson:
41:33
So it's, it's always work in progress, and there's always areas of refinement.
John Wardle:
41:39
Yeah. Well, this look. This, in fact, many aspects to to that question. One one is the idea of the Sydney studio, and that was that we felt studio growth was interesting. We were getting, to a stage where we felt it was dangerous for a practice to be too large in the in the setting, that we occur within, and maybe we should stop the growth of the Melbourne practice.
John Wardle:
42:07
And if we were to grow as a practice through opportunity, and so much of that is elsewhere, let's have another base, and Sydney was the obvious place to do that. And we had worked in Sydney for many years, so and we had a good catalog of work there. And Jasmine was from there. So there's there's a whole series of things that, that suggested Sydney to be the place that then would take on the growth. There's no strict ruling to this, but our our sort of very fuzzy thesis, which we're good at good at fuzzy thesis, it was that maybe everything that wasn't in Victoria would be done from the Sydney studio.
John Wardle:
42:51
So that would be its imprimatur. We equally do it. We work in Brisbane and Perth at the moment in Hull recently, And maybe that could be the way that it would grow by doing everything that's not in Melbourne. Rather than Melbourne trying to feel, we have to respond to the demands of of work in other in other places. We're very keen to do a project.
John Wardle:
43:17
It doesn't even have to be a large project, but a project in the northern hemisphere. We are doing a series of projects in China. The first of those is about to be completed. The second is well underway, and the third is has commenced, which is great for us. And so we've we've then honed our skills.
John Wardle:
43:36
Matthew Van Koy, one of our partners, has really secured that work and then made that happen. So that's something really defines a lot of what Matthew brings to the practice. And but we really want to see that as a as a staging post for doing a a project, a university project in the northern hemisphere or some housing or whatever, mind you, it's a it's a it's a broad ambition we haven't actually worked much on, but we hope someone might just fall in our laps. But, yeah, just the thought that that now in and so many of our skills of communication, and honed during COVID of working remotely, would allow us, we know, to work in many other places. We're now particularly good at that, and we could touch on that.
John Wardle:
44:30
But the other thing is for a long time now, we've been a practice that sought collaboration with others, often geographically, a firm of architects or another state, then from there to firms of other architects and other practitioners that have particular skills that we don't have. And and so that was also, I think, probably our our great wish to go elsewhere is to actually do that, in concert with another one or a series of of of of design professionals.
Dave Sharp:
45:03
So that collaboration allows you to sort of bridge that gap of not necessarily being on the ground there in that city. During COVID and during, you know, those times, a lot of architects I was working with, their employees moved to different states and, you know, a lot of people came back to Perth or went home to Queensland or whatever. It opened up a lot of opportunities for those practices to think about setting up a studio, a new studio in that other city because there's somebody we've got somebody there and we can start looking at it. First, it's very hard for a lot of practices to really navigate that and to build a solid presence in that place and to be seen to be part of that local scene and not seen as they're based in Melbourne, but they've got like a remote employee somewhere kind of thing. So you were already doing projects in Sydney and some of these other places, but was it something that you got really right about the way that you made the official Sydney practice kind of start and how you kind of went about sort of coming into Sydney in the right way that you look back on and think that was a good way to actually you guys No.
John Wardle:
46:07
No. We exactly emulated the the the the original commencement of this practice. It took it took a wilder fire. We've got our way cautiously and slowly and, yeah, Jasmine, take over here, but it did certainly took longer and and it has been a more intriguing
Jasmin Williamson:
46:28
Yes. As John as John said, you do learn more from your failures and your successes. So it's been, yeah. Look, it has been it has been challenging, but it's it's been, I think in in in recent in the last couple of years, particularly, I think we've really, grounded ourselves really well here now. And we've, particularly after COVID, we we had we had a whole series of really wonderful, lunch series called Our City Series where we invited others into the studio.
Jasmin Williamson:
47:08
It happened in Melbourne, but also in Sydney. And it was just a wonderful way of really, supercharging our connectivity to those that in in the city that we wanted to know. And and and many of those were reconnecting with old friends of the practice, and others were very much new to us. But, being here at 477 Pitt Street, it's really allowed us you know, having a really beautiful dedicated studio space allowed us to do these sorts of things. And, and it's really been been a wonderful success in that regard.
Jasmin Williamson:
47:44
How how many projects have come out of that, you know, okay. See how that unfolds in time. But, we must we must, do all of these sorts of things, to sort of take us out of our day to day kind of, you know, you know, working processes.
John Wardle:
48:01
Jess, do you wanna talk to perhaps what are the other of our partners group sort of bring to their roles in the practice?
Jasmin Williamson:
48:07
Oh, yes. Absolutely. Yeah. I was gonna mention that for all of, you know, I've been incredibly supported by all the partners with our ambition up here. So Megan Dwyer, has been with the practice for much longer than me, and she has incredible experience in the education, tertiary education sector and also life sciences, sector.
Jasmin Williamson:
48:30
She's currently work leading our Australian Institute of Infectious Diseases project that John mentioned earlier. James Loder, Jimmy, he's, one of our key designers in the practice. He's, just an incredible he's a absolute gun designer. Works beautifully hand in hand with you, John. It's lovely to see the way you 2 work together.
Jasmin Williamson:
48:55
And Jimmy's also, really studiously mentoring quite a broad group of designers across Sydney and Melbourne. And those designers are working, you know, taking a design lead on projects or perhaps they're doing a lot of 3 day modeling or rendering or, you know, looking at other aspects of researching design. So Jimmy's really, driving that, across the practice. And and Matthew Van Kooij, as John mentioned, who's leading our work in China, is also leading much of our commercial, sector work. And he's, yeah.
Jasmin Williamson:
49:34
He's he, in fact, hosted we hosted a talk at the studio last night in Melbourne on adaptive reuse that Matthew led and brought all of those groups together. I was speaking with him this morning. It sounded like it was a wonderful event to bring people into the studio. So but all all of the partners come up to Sydney. John was here last week.
Jasmin Williamson:
49:55
Matthew was here the week before. So there's there's definitely, a lot of support and, and, you know, interest in what we're doing here. It's very much one studio, approach.
Dave Sharp:
50:07
What if the this is just a question that relates to kind of succession and this idea of building the profile and reputation of partners as a group rather than just a single director or founding director as yourself, John, that I work with some bigger practices that may be sort of, you know, 2nd or 3rd generation sort of practices. And sometimes it gets pointed out that one of the challenges of not having the kind of one individual as the kind of the face or the of the of the front person of the practice brand. It's harder to create that sense of this clear design thing coming from one person, which of course is a sort of a myth, right, in terms of, like, it's a collective effort of so many people involved and all that sort of thing. But it's brought up to me sometimes that it's it feels like sometimes practices that have that kind of that individual that is out there publicly, they're sort of seen as doing something a little bit different. And that when you've got, like, a broader leadership team, it can be challenging to sort of see, like, what what's pushing that kind of that design idea.
Dave Sharp:
51:08
So I'm just wondering I I don't know if I'm setting up a completely wrong premise here, but I'm just interested in your thoughts on, like, have you felt that once you've actually moved more to a structure where it's sort of saying, we're a group of partners, we're a leadership team, has there been anything that you've picked up or any noticeable challenges with that in terms of, I guess, like, perception of the practice or the design thinking or anything like that? Just I'm just interested in your thoughts on this issue.
John Wardle:
51:31
Yeah. And it's a it's a very complex issue, and to be authentic is really important. I think part of what you're talking about is authenticity here. So when we were a smaller practice, I would be attending a meeting as the sole designer or primary designer, And so I would talk with a real heartfelt authenticity about the design I was presenting to a a a family or a group of people or whoever. But what probably still is the benefit of a practice such as theirs is that I am still, I exemplify the or I think authentically the culture of design in the practice and has a personality and it come and stories and all of those sort of things that actually embed culture and and give light to other to allow others to, find their way and to understand the the cult the design culture for practice.
John Wardle:
52:29
So and that's that's very important in my role. So I think there's still we've we've managed as a practice to have our under our clients better understand the collaborative framework that we engage with here, and the authentic experience of appreciating the processes of design through constant meeting with people who are actually engaged with the design of their building. It's no there's not sort of you're meeting with a senior partner and somebody in the back room is actually doing the work. So when we engage, I might very often be at the meeting, but not always, but there would always be at least one member of the design team there to talk very authentically about and and and personally about the trials and tribulations and joys and and great moments along the journey of designing their building. And I think that's still evident in the way we all then interact with design being in the narrative that comes out of a a specific design being paramount in our interaction with others?
Jasmin Williamson:
53:47
I would would just say that the there's always been a strong emphasis on each designer having their own voice and finding their own authentic expression of of the design. But it's I think what John says is that there's a lot of I think what you're saying right is is I've observed, John, is that there's a lot of, you know, there's there's sort of a a framework that the designers kind of understand within which they operate. And I think, this sort of common language that exists across the design team. But when it comes to that moment of meeting with a client and explaining an idea, there's definitely an authenticity to each of them. They're all quite unique, and they've all got their little, you know, different personalities and quirks and, you know, wonderful idiosyncrasies.
Jasmin Williamson:
54:40
And that kind of comes out, and the clients get to to see that. But they, you know, I think it still, sits within a really lovely framework that we all understand. And I'm I don't necessarily sit down and design myself. You know, I have a different role in the practice, but quite often I have to go and present design ideas, you know, with the designer. So it's, it's just finding that language that, you know, expresses the collective design team, but also, you know, pushing your own authenticity forward as well.
Jasmin Williamson:
55:19
And I think was it's the the practice has matured in a really lovely way to be able to do that, I think.
Dave Sharp:
55:27
How do you translate the essence of the founding director into a framework that can then just become this kind of it's not just about, you know, the practice enacting kind of what would John do for the rest of his it's it's it's not not in any way, but but in terms of going, look, this practice as a whole, it's got its own distinctive DNA and quality and something to it that is its own kind of it's integral to it. How do you sort of make sure as the organization gets bigger that there's just a coherence to what we're doing and, and a consistency over time that so that what we're doing now connects to, you know, this body of work that's grown over time.
John Wardle:
56:10
It's it's difficult. It and and we stumble from time to time. We do stumble more internally, I think, and are constantly trying to reappraise, a design studio culture and the the mechanics of that internally so that it can be spirited and at times and freewheeling. Really important that we don't constrain it by, by too much heavy process. I mean, we've gotta be really careful that the intuitive aspects of design are really nurtured.
John Wardle:
56:45
So but then orchestrating opportunities for design expression within the practice is constantly challenged. And I wouldn't I couldn't say we've always done it well, I think we do these times of of, yeah, treading on toes and sensitivities and all those sorts of things that are really part and parcel of people coming together, and and drawing together the the the the quite separate approaches and different mindsets and different skills and experiences of many people into into a collaborative environment. It is it is, at best, absolutely joyful and incredibly productive creatively and also challenging and, and and constantly being reconsidered. I mean, it's a it's a talking point in our studio, partnership level, but a very broad discussion about how to better broaden design authorship, draw in ideas, find those within a larger practice who have those conceptual ideas, and finding out mechanisms, I think, of of that allow, a larger practice to observe the talents within and allowing for me to exist. It it's it's a, it's really it's why some small practices failed to grow, and and the challenge of growth to allow that to, occur is is one of those scripts that almost can't be written, you know, and we're constantly reconsidering that very thing.
John Wardle:
58:35
And now with AI being integrated into a lot of what we do, a whole new raft of skill sets and ways methods of of working together, and some really fascinating things that we're currently undertaking with being led by James Loder and Tom, one of the other key contributors here, is then a further layer of iteration now is upon us at this at this very time of the way working.
Jasmin Williamson:
59:08
For us, like, we often reflect on the essence of when we've been incredibly at our best. So what what contributed to that essence, that DNA? You know, what were all the the ingredients that just made us absolutely fly and, you know, and and and then try and bring some of those attributes back. For me, you know, I've been with the practice for many, many years. So it's so important that I garner that essence.
Jasmin Williamson:
59:39
But then I are able to project it forward and still look, innovatively, creatively, strategically. Because if we don't evolve, everything will evolve around us and we'll just be left, you know, doing what we were doing. So, but you should never lose that essence of, you know, when you were at your best, whenever that moment was. It could be last week or it could be 10 years ago. It doesn't man matter when it was.
Jasmin Williamson:
01:00:06
But, I think that's that's really important, because, yeah, that's that's essentially part of every practice's DNA.
Dave Sharp:
01:00:16
Jasmine, John, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
John Wardle:
01:00:19
Good. Good day. It's been great. Glad to share the time with you.
Dave Sharp:
01:00:29
That was my conversation with John Wardle and Jasmine Williamson from WardleStudio. Studio. If you'd like to learn more about their work, you can visit Wardle.studio or follow them on Instagram at Wardle.studio. Office Talk is hosted by Office Dave Sharp, a strategic marketing and brand definition practice for architecture. We work collaboratively with clients across the globe, so to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit office dave sharp.com.
Dave Sharp:
01:00:55
Today's episode of Office Talk was edited and engineered by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwelling Studio. That's all for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next time.
