"I'm the Magic Here": Cara Alwill on Girl Code, Pink Ink, and Never Waiting to Be Chosen

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The story with Kara is that she does so many things.
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She's like a badass business woman.
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And I have so many questions.
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Um, but so she has a publishing company called Pink Inc.
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And a lot of the girls that she has published do these like literary salons in my area.
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So like I've met them through these salons, and they're all like, oh my god, you have to meet Kara, you have to meet Kara.
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And like we've never like been able to meet up in person.
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There's so many things I want to know about her that I was like, you just need to come on.
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So you this is literally the first time that we're talk you're talking to her.
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Like like outside of like email and just like social media stuff, like yes, she has an insane substack.
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Um, she's an author, she's published a million books.
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Um she does a lot of like memoirs and stuff.
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She's so cool and so sweet.
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And all of her authors in her publishing company are just girls we want to hang out with and be friends with.
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I can't describe it.
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That's literally how much how like she must find like a great story, and then she was like, Is she a girl I want to hang out with?
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That's I'm that I'm publishing her book because they're all just like cool hangs.
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So it sounds like we're starting with so what don't you do that's associated with sex would probably be a shorter list.
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It's it's it's literally that like what don't you do?
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And how how do you do it all in the day?
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Obviously, we go to we've gone to the conferences, we've done the things, it's a lot of older people whose children are out of the house and they finally have a moment to sit in their own thoughts and do the damn thing and make the book, or like and write the book and go through the publishing journey and everything.
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Millennials don't have the patience for that shit.
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We're just like we're just gonna do it.
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And if we struggle through it and it doesn't get done like super fast, at least we're doing it.
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Like there's no there's no there's no waiting for us.
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I think because we saw so many older generations wait to do what they loved.
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And we're like, not waiting.
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And social is like when you see everybody else doing the thing that you want to do, you're just like, I want to do it now.
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I wanna do it now.
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It's also like for all of the busyness and stuff, it's also like the thing that keeps us sane.
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Or the thing that keeps us like moving.
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You know what I mean?
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Yeah.
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I I think if we didn't have something for us in this dumpster fire, we would easily it would get dismal real quick.
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It would get dismal.
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Yeah.
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This is our means of having hope and uh shutting out all the bullshit.
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I think so.
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I also like have this theory that like an object in motion.
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I mean yes, I made this scientific theory.
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Yeah.
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No, an object in motion stays in motion.
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Like, yes, it's a new thought today.
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No.
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But like, say like during COVID, I did not have children.
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I had nothing.
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And I was working on a book.
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Guess what I did during COVID?
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Didn't work on my book.
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Like nothing.
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I did zero things like creatively because I was not in motion.
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I was not already moving.
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It was gonna take a lot of energy to like put that wheel in motion.
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Whereas I feel like if you have a busy life, it's easy to maintain the motion because you are already going and it's like okay, we're going, we're going, we're going, we're going.
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Whereas if like you had nothing that was like getting you busy every day, it would be hard to like find that, like create that energy.
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I totally agree.
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Yeah.
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It's easier, it's easier to slow down than it is to speed up.
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That's it.
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That's what it is.
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Easier to slow down than it is to speed up.
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Yeah, but yeah.
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I know what that one's thinking for a minute.
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That was really fucking that was a deep what, like seven minutes?
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Jesus.
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Okay, so there we go.
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That was the intro.
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I was just talking about how we've been in the same circles, and I just I was like, this will be literally be the first time we've ever chatted.
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I know, I know.
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I was like, when I first like found you guys, I was like, oh my God, like so many of like women I know follow you.
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And like I know, like, I think you spoke to Ian Gallagher.
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Yeah, we're supposed to have her and Ava.
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I like I would I was just saying, I I was like, I want to have all these girls on because they're so cool and so fun.
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I love that.
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I love that.
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I love seeing like my literary babies out in the wild doing cool things.
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So I have so many questions.
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I have so many questions.
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So I was like, okay, so she has a publishing right, she has subsets, she has like every, she does everything.
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But also these girls are so cool.
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Is that like the barrier to entry?
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You're like, you have to be really cool at writing because their books are amazing and they're all like memoirs about how awesome they are, and they're all girls you want to hang out with.
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I feel like I like everyone's like, what do you do?
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Like, who, you know, when you meet someone, I'm like, I'm a writer, of course, but I feel like I'm also a community builder.
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Like, I love bringing people together.
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It's like one of my greatest passions.
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So whatever it is that I'm into at that time, I just kind of like invite people to come along and do it with me.
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And I teach them, I coach them, I help them.
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I become friends with everybody.
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Like all of my authors and my clients are friends, and we drink wine together and say all the crazy things.
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Like everyone is just kind of like part of our world.
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Like whenever I meet someone, they're like, I think I met this person because she followed you on Substack, or I met this person because she follows you on Instagram.
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Like, I don't know what's going on, but like it's law of attraction for sure because the coolest people just like keep coming into like our universe.
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So I love it.
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Whatever it is, it's great.
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Oh, I feel the same way.
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Like, even when I see like some of the like the followers like trickle in or like people comment on like some of our stuff.
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I'm like, hello, where did you come from?
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I'm so happy to see you.
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Exactly.
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I'm telling you, it's like attracts like, like the cool people find cool people.
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It's just always the way that it goes.
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What came first though?
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Like, was it the writing first?
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Was it the like where where did it where did this whole universe start?
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Because you like you made your own universe.
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You literally did.
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I mean, honestly, like I started a blog.
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I'm gonna sound so ancient right now, and I can't believe it, but I started my blog in 2008.
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So 18 years ago, I started.
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That's when it was though.
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That's when we were doing that.
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It was the height of like blogging culture.
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I had a little blog on, you know, blog spot or whatever, a blogger.
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And I was just writing like into the universe, into the world.
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I was working a full-time job.
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I was at MTV, so I was in like a cubicle, and I just was like, I want to write.
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I mean, I wanted to write from the time I was a little girl.
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Like, I what?
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Did you write an MTV?
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Yes, traffic.
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That's where I worked.
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Yeah.
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Wait, why everyone just like gasped?
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It sounds cooler than it was.
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I mean, it was a great job, but like I wasn't doing anything cool.
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I was trafficking ads to the internet.
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I was in like the digital advertising operations team.
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So I was like total like nerding out, like coding the website and like putting ads up.
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Um, I did, it's a very long story.
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I wanted to be a music journalist.
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I had a zine back in the 90s, and then I wound up at MTV because it was like the only I was apply, I used to like apply to every job at MTV that I could find on the website when I was in my 20s.
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Like I would do anything.
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I'm like, I could tweak my resume to like fit whatever they wanted me to be, basically.
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And then like this advertising operations team like hired me, and I had no idea what I was doing, but I figured it out.
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Um, but I, you know, it was like a tech job.
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So I was really bored.
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I'm like super creative.
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I wanted to write books my whole life.
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I used to write like put together books when I was a little girl, like glue them together and like draw and shit.
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Um, so I was like, I can't stay trapped in this like corporate job.
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My therapist was like, you have the golden handcuffs on, you know, because I was making good money and I was like good at what I did, but I was like, this just can't be it.
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Um, so I started a blog called The Champagne Diet.
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So that was like my foray into like officially like writing and publishing my work online.
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And I mean, I won't take you the whole 18-year story, but like essentially that was where my community was built.
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And like this was before Instagram.
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Like, this is like I feel like a dinosaur.
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Like Twitter, I had a personal Facebook page with like family members on it and like my neighbors, and then a Twitter account.
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And I didn't know what the hell I was doing.
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I didn't even know that, like, I remember my friend like showing me that I could like check DMs on Twitter.
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I didn't even know that I had any messages waiting.
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I would just be like, this is my blog today, and just like post it.
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But like people would respond and then I would respond back.
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And I just like loved connecting with people online.
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I was like, I was like the girl in the chat room when chat rooms first became a thing, like talking to people to like three o'clock in the morning.
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I didn't know who I was talking to.
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I just liked sharing and like connecting with people.
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Yeah.
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So we've been working on it a long time of community and writing for sure.
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But that's it, that's honestly like the people now who who are doing the cool shit, like what you're doing.
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Like that's everybody who started in high school.
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Like, I mean, I was graduate, I graduated in 2006, but like all of my friends who had started these like niche fan-based things, we were just talking about fan fiction on the last episode.
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And like, that's who, as adults, we are the creators.
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Yes.
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Now I agree.
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And I think we're kind of like the blueprint for like the younger generation.
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Like, they're all nostalgic and they all want to like do all these things, but like we did that, you know.
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So I think it's kind of cool that we sort of like put ourselves out there creatively before like social media is had become what it has become now, you know, like way before TikTok, way before, you know, people were connecting.
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Like we had to like figure it out in chat rooms and like the infancy of social media.
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Yes, truly, really what it was today.
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Truly.
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And learning the coding and designing, if even like MySpace or like learning how to those skills were, I mean, yeah, I think that's all my friends who were doing really cool shit now.
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They were building a fan base on MySpace or in chat ribs, or in yeah.
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I mean, and you had to work for it back then, like you had to figure out how to get that song on your profile.
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Like, nobody was you were like some of a drop-down.
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Yeah.
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And there was no chat GPT to tell you how to do it.
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So true.
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Exactly.
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It's so true.
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So then, okay, so then the blog becomes Substack, becomes the blogs of thousands of people following you.
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It can become a big one.
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The blog turned into a book first.
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Like, and that was really like the whole impetus for starting the blog.
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I wanted to write a book, but you know, I was a clueless, like 20-something year old, and I was like, I don't know.
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Like, I just who's gonna read this book?
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You know, and I started like researching and going on all of these, like, like, God, what was the website I used to go on?
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It was like writersomething.com and there were like forums.
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Okay.
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So, like, again, pre-social media.
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And I would just ask people questions.
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I'm like, how do I write a book?
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And I learned all about like querying agents and you know, traditional publishing, and every single person told me the same thing.
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They're like, you need a platform.
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You know, I was 20 something.
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There's like a meme that's going around now.
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It's like, write on Substack with the confidence of a 25-year-old writing a memoir.
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And I'm like, that was me.
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I'm writing my memoirs.
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Like, what the fuck do I know?
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I'm in my 20s.
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Like, but I was told I had to have this platform.
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So I started the blog.
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And then from there, I wound up finding a literary agent and pitching the book and like getting rejected by 19 different publishers and then self-publishing my book.
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And I've the whole, it's a whole long journey with that.
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But essentially, you know, 10 books later, I had now I'm on Substack.
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So I started my Substack in 2023 to kind of like promote the last book that I came out with, my dating memoir, because I wanted to like move genres and just kind of like be in hiding a little bit.
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It was before a lot of people were really doing Substack.
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Um, so I was like personal development, you know, like talking about female entrepreneurship by day on Instagram.
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And at night, I was like writing these unhinged dating stories on Substack because nobody knew me over there.
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That's so cool.
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Okay.
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I'm just gonna say it.
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This needs to be a movie.
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We like there's a screenplay somewhere in here.
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Where's the movie?
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Yeah.
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When's the movie coming out?
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Listen, from your lips to God's ears.
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Like that's like the dream, right?
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Like I would love.
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I I actually like, yeah, I would love, I don't know who would play me though.
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I don't know.
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I'd be like psycho about that, right?
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Have you ever thought about who would play you in a movie?
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Like that would fuck up my head a little bit.
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I'm a stone for me if I had a movie.
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I like that.
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Very specific.
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That was so specific.
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I have literally no idea, and I've honestly never thought about it, but I've like I I feel like this has like Sex of the City vibes too, but like that is totally your brand, and it is so fun and so cool.
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And I've so enjoyed following you and your subsec.
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Um and I so that that would be the movie.
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It would be like fucking so glamorous.
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But wait, the MTV days, I like I'm still trying to wrap my head around this because that I'm like fangirling so hard right now.
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It was crazy.
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Oh my god, you gotta so like I I was nuts.
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Like I took the job in advertising, but I still wanted to write for MTV news because I like idolized Tabitha Sorin back in the day, remember?
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Kurt Loader.
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Like they were my heroes.
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Kurt Loader.
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Oh my god.
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Yes, I was obsessed.
00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:10.240
So they used I used to see them.
00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:14.480
Well, she wasn't there, but I would see Kurt like in the little cafe building.
00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:16.240
Carson Daly, like all of them.
00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:17.600
Yeah, it's crazy.
00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:19.360
You were in the downtown.
00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:26.080
I mean, like, I don't know what other building, I don't know if they had other buildings, but you were in you went to work in that building at the Yeah, 1515 Broadway.
00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:26.639
Mm-hmm.
00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:27.919
For eight years.
00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:29.840
But Carson Daly, yeah.
00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:31.679
I mean, what a fucking beginning.
00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:32.559
That is so crazy.
00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:34.639
And actually, this is pretty wild.
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:40.080
I don't think I've ever told this story like on a podcast or anything, but I um I wanted to write for MTV News.
00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:44.639
So I found the guy's email, like the editor's email of MTV News.
00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:48.399
And I was like, hey, I work up, you know, on like whatever it was like the 46th floor.
00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:51.440
I work in adopts, like I would love to write for MTV News.
00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:52.559
Like, I'll do it for free.
00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:53.360
You know, I don't care.
00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:54.320
I just want to do this.
00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:57.440
And he was like, Well, he's like, you know, send me writing sample.
00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:58.320
So I sent him stuff.
00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:02.080
And he's like, we can't pay you because you're already employed by the company.
00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:05.200
But if you want to just submit some stuff, like you can.
00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:07.440
So I started writing like for free.
00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:14.000
Like I would get up at like five in the morning before I would like I lived in Brooklyn, before I'd get on the bus, which was like an hour and a half ride to get there to work every day.
00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:17.440
I'd get up at 5 a.m., read the news, and I would pitch stories.
00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:21.600
So like I was, you know, celebrity stuff, like gossip, music gossip.
00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:23.360
And my articles would get published.
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:29.759
And I never forget one day I'm leaving and I'm sitting in my cubicle and I'm like packing up and it's like 5:30, and he calls me.
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:32.080
He's like, hey, he's like, are you free tomorrow night?
00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:33.200
And I was like, yeah.
00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:34.960
Like, was he like asking me out?
00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:36.320
Like, this is so weird, you know?
00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:39.919
And he's like, Well, we need an uh a reporter to cover the VMAs.
00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:41.440
Like, are you able to go?
00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:51.519
So I went as like an embedded reporter, and I stood in the pit at the VMAs, and it was the crazy one where um Taylor Swift got her thing taken away by gone.
00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:54.879
Stop! Yeah, you were there.
00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:57.200
I like wrote an article about it was crazy.
00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.879
It's when Alicia Keys did uh Empire State of Mind for the first time.
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:02.399
Yeah, it was wild.
00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:03.120
It was wild.
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:10.080
Yeah, I had to interview people about a little history being in the pit.
00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:13.279
Yeah, this is like weird Carolore that I never really talk about.
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:15.440
It was pretty funny.
00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:16.240
That's how cool.
00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:19.600
That's how you know you're so cool that that's like a story you don't even talk about.
00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:24.720
Like if that were me, I that would be the story I'd tell everybody the second we need.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.200
Like that would be my fun fact at every icebreaker.
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:29.600
I mean, I wanted to do it.
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:34.240
Like I I was gonna like transfer and like go work there, but they were paying like nothing.
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:42.480
Like I was making like, I'm talking like they were paying like$20,000 a year for like a writer job, and I was making like 60 or something.
00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:43.039
You know what I mean?
00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:44.080
Like it was a big gap.
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:47.360
Like I couldn't, I wouldn't have been able to like eat, which is so sad, right?
00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:48.720
Like poverty.
00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:50.799
Writers should make more money.
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:52.159
Like, yeah, it was crazy.
00:16:52.399 --> 00:17:01.759
So we do the Substack, and then you publish all these books and you build this incredible community of women.
00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:10.720
And I was telling Jenna before you signed on, which should probably just be like the intro to this episode that like we we met through uh doing these literary salons.
00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:18.640
But it seems like now you started it in New York, and now and now it's kind of taking on another life of its own and going to all these different cities.
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:20.079
Like, what's going on with that?
00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:22.559
Well, I started my literary salon.
00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:26.000
It was called the Tortured Bloggers Department, because it came out.
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:27.839
I started it when Taylor dropped that album.
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:30.559
I was like, oh, this is a funny plan words like tortured poets.
00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:34.640
So the tortured bloggers department, and it initially started as a Substack meetup.
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:42.240
I was like, hey, anyone out there on Substack that wants to meet up and like hang out in New York, like I'm a writer, like let me meet other writers.
00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:44.559
And then I was like, maybe I'll read something at it.
00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:47.359
And then like I was like, maybe I'll ask somebody else to read at it.
00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:51.839
And then my friend Melissa, who runs the Kings County Distillery, was like, you can do it here.
00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:57.279
And I was like, I'm just gonna make my own literary salon because I would read or I would like try to read it, like ones around the city.
00:17:57.440 --> 00:17:59.039
And I did for like a year or so.
00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:01.920
I started reading at other people's, but you know how it is.
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:08.240
It's like there's there would be like one every other month, and like I you'd have to like wait and hear if you like, and I was like, fuck this.
00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:09.359
I don't want to wait on people.
00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:10.720
I'm just gonna start my own.
00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:14.160
So I started my own salon and I ran it for two years.
00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:17.839
And then a lot of the girls that came to read for me started their own.
00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:19.680
So like Mariana Pease has one.
00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:21.839
She's one of my authors on my publishing house.
00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:23.680
She does one in Boston.
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:28.559
Like everybody's just sort of like doing their own and they're kind of like popping up everywhere, which I think is cool.
00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:34.000
And I just think in general, I'm seeing more literary events, especially in New York.
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:35.440
I mean, but really all over the country.
00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:43.759
And I just think that it's so awesome that people are like getting together in person and like reading together and just authors are connecting with each other.
00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:50.240
And it's I feel like I've waited like my whole life for that because that was it was so underground before, at least for me.
00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:56.559
Like I didn't really see a lot of opportunities where there were rooms of women just like getting up and reading their crazy, wild, unhinged stories.
00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:05.519
And that was like the premise for mine, the reason I called it the Tortured Bloggers Department is because it was all about like your most cringe-worthy dating stories or like love stories.
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:12.880
And then it evolved over time, and it was really just about like love stories in general, like the love story you have with yourself or friendship.
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:14.799
So it was really fun.
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:16.079
I got engaged though.
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:20.559
So I wrote, I wrote a dating memoir, which is right here.
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.359
Um it's pink shocker, right?
00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:24.880
I wrote that in 2023.
00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:27.039
This is why I started my Substack.
00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:31.359
And then I got engaged to one of the guys I wrote about in the memoir.
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:33.759
So I wound up moving for love.
00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:38.319
I know it's a cliche, to Jacksonville, Florida, where I live now, but I go back and forth.
00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:40.720
So I'm in New York like every month because my whole family's still there.
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:42.960
So I don't do the salon anymore because I'm in Florida.
00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:48.319
Well, and because you don't have any more dating material in this year.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:54.480
I've got lots of other crazy material, but it's not dating.
00:19:55.920 --> 00:20:06.480
I feel like I'm that's so cool because I'm like, there's always um, I feel like there's so much literature out there that are about that's like about the woman who writes the dating blog and like then meets the guy.
00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:11.759
But how does it work in real life when you are writing subsex and memoirs about people you're dating?
00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:13.839
Like, what are the logistics on that as a writer?
00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:14.720
Are you telling them?
00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:16.400
Are you how what are you disclosing?
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:17.759
Are you asking them?
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:30.160
It's funny say that because I remember when I was like on the dating apps, like I would like on my hinge account, like sometimes I would write author and sometimes I would like remove it because I would meet people and they'd be like, Are you gonna write about this date?
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:31.279
Like, are you gonna write about me?
00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:41.920
You've written books before, and I'd be like, Oh god, like don't flatter yourself, but maybe just like is this the competition to be like the craziest one or like the most genuine?
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:44.160
Because I don't think Yeah, seriously.
00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:50.720
So I did write about a lot of those men, but I changed details, of course, like in memoir, I changed all the identifying details.
00:20:50.960 --> 00:21:00.799
But I mean, if somebody, if somebody knows what they did and knows how they behaved and read the book, they would identify, they would recognize themselves in the pages for sure.
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:06.160
But it's crazy because the, you know, my fiance now who I wrote about, and I left the book on a cliffhanger.
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:12.000
So I like left people like not really knowing what the next thing was because we were broken up at the end of the book.
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:15.680
So I leave it on a cliffhanger and that, and now, you know, we're together.
00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:17.359
So like everything was very public.
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:27.039
And it was interesting because when you're writing your life, um, as you guys know, like as writers and readers, like it's you're putting it all out there.
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:31.279
So it was different for me because I was like, oh shit, like what are people gonna think?
00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:35.119
Like when I tell them that we got back together and that we got engaged and we lived together.
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:37.759
But it was overwhelmingly supportive, I would say.
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:50.960
And I think reading the book back now, like when I was writing it, it was, I was still kind of like in the place of, you know, kind of having just come off this whole tri crazy train that I was on for years.
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:53.759
Um, but I read it back now very differently.
00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:58.799
Like I'm reading it back now, like, oh, like I actually it wasn't always just them, you know.
00:21:58.880 --> 00:21:59.759
Like, I mean, and I didn't.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.880
Like revenge, right?
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:08.400
I wasn't writing like horrible things, but I was really telling the story, but I'm able to look back now and see the role that I played in a lot of these relationships, which is interesting.
00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:10.720
And I think that's what like the next book is gonna be.
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:18.000
Because I think when we, you know, I think the best kind of memoir has a lot of perspective in it and has a lot of uh reflection.
00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:24.880
And I'm able to kind of give myself a lot more grace now and see where I was maybe the problem.
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:28.559
Some of my adventures, my misadventures.
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:32.079
Um, but yeah, writing about other people is tricky for sure.
00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:44.720
I think my rule of thumb is always like try not to focus too much on that person and focus more on like how you responded to what was going on or how you navigated life during that time.
00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:45.839
Mm-hmm.
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:55.440
Yeah, because you never you you don't know what's going through their head, and if it's if it's non-fiction, you can't get in their head about it and you can't interview them.
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:56.079
It's fascinating.
00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:57.599
And it's only your perspective.
00:22:58.079 --> 00:22:59.759
There's three sides to every story, right?
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:01.920
So Oh, I always say that.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:05.279
I always say we all do that though, with everything, right?
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:08.240
And I think I wanted to write this book.
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:14.400
I wanted to be close to it when I wrote it, because one, I just think that makes for more interesting writing, personally.
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:18.480
I know they say, like, tell from the wound, tell from the scar, not the wound.
00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:20.319
But like, I kind of like being close to the work.
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:30.960
I think it's a little more emotionally charged when you can, you know, not trauma dump or write a diary, but like still be close enough to something that happened where you still feel the emotions.
00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:45.519
Cause I think if we take too much time away from a story, we're like, we just, I don't know, our memory kind of blurs things and protects us, and we we're not really able to like recall it in the same visceral way that we are when we're like in it, you know?
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:50.240
Especially because readers respond to the visceral nature of it.
00:23:50.960 --> 00:24:07.839
And it's when when you read someone's trauma, reading it after it's happened like years and years and years ago, it doesn't have that like strong like almost like a taste to it.
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:09.039
You know what I mean?
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:16.480
That sounds like really weird to say, but it's it it's cathartic when you read very raw stuff.
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:17.759
I agree.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:19.119
Yeah, very it's raw.
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:32.079
And I think that like I think as authors or writers, we we are trying to always be as uh close to the honesty and the realness as we possibly can and and be as honest and authentic as we can.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:37.599
And we I feel like if you're in it, when you're in it, it's the most honest you can be with with something.
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:39.359
I totally can relate to that.
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:48.160
And I think like, yeah, like the joke about the 25-year-old writing a memoir, but I think we write memoir to process what we're going through.
00:24:48.880 --> 00:25:04.000
Otherwise, it's it's not always it's not always like a morality play, or like it's not like us saying, like, here's how things should be or how they shouldn't be, or this is just what I went through, and I'm working through that with this please piece of art, I guess.
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:07.839
Like I'm using this medium to work through what I went through.
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:11.839
But it gives it gives your mind space.
00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:29.039
And it gives your mind like almost like you can be more kind to yourself then after the fact, after you've gone through all of it again and like your writing, and you don't have to sit there and beat up on yourself of like the what ifs or you know, trying to dissect what happened because it's like you did that, you went through it.
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:32.480
But it also must be, yeah, like what you do when you blog, right?
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:35.279
Because you're not writing a blog like five years after.
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:37.119
No, whatever.
00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:37.839
Exactly.
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:40.960
I was just gonna say, what's the point?
00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:47.440
And that's why I love Substack so much because I really am processing so much in real time, basically.
00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:55.200
Like, especially now, like I've been writing about, you know, like the past year, for example, that I've like since I moved and like what it was like to leave New York.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:26:00.640
Like, my I was born and raised there, my whole identity was tied to that city and my family and my whole life.
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:09.599
So I've really been writing and it like it's naturally shaping like my message, right, with the world, like what I'm going through.
00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:15.519
And a lot of it is identity and it is getting older and how you navigate that as a woman.
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:18.480
Like I'm in my 40s now and like I just became a stepmom.
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:19.440
I never wanted kids.
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:24.160
I'm like, all these things are naturally coming up, and I'm able to write about them.
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:29.839
And I think it's it's interesting because you just naturally start connecting with the right people when you're honest and you tell your story.
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:36.480
You know, like if you would have told me three years ago you're gonna be writing about like stepmotherhood, I'd be like, yo, what the hell?
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:38.480
It's no way in hell that I'm doing that.
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:39.279
Like, what?
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:43.920
You know, but now I'm like, I'm writing, and like I always have like I write kind of in a funny way.
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:49.279
So it's like I'm not writing these like deeply personal and reflective things all the time, but I can make fun of myself.
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:52.079
And I'm like, the hell am I doing in a school pickup line right now?
00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:53.440
Like I'm not supposed to be here.
00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:55.519
Like this wasn't what was supposed to happen.
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:56.079
Oh my gosh.
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:59.039
But like it did, and it's still beautiful and awesome.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:06.160
And I think, you know, when you have a career, especially a literary career, and you have people that have been around for a long time.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:10.400
Like I have women write to me and they're like, I've been following you since 2010 or 2011.
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:15.839
That's like really powerful because they've been on that journey with you and you've been on their journey, hopefully, right?
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:18.880
Like, hopefully they're reaching out to you and messaging you.
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:23.279
And I've seen people just like, I feel like I've grown up with a lot of my readers, which is really cool.
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:24.240
It's my God.
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:25.680
Such a crazy perspective.
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:30.720
And I think that's the whole point for me at least of writing, it's to connect with somebody else, right?
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:34.319
Like to be like, this is what I'm going through.
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:35.599
Can you relate?
00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:47.279
Let's go through it together and and write about it and hopefully have a conversation about it through the writing or through the communities that we build, whether it's a literary salon or a workshop or whatever that looks like.
00:27:48.480 --> 00:28:02.160
Yeah, it's like a it's a sign of good art when you can actually talk about it and like commune in it together and not have it be a solitary experience all the time.
00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:03.599
Isn't that the point?
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:05.200
It's the point of what we're doing.
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:05.839
I agree.
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:24.640
And I think like, you know, I know the word brand is so overused, like personal brand, but like if you do want to make money and build a brand and a universe and things that people can attach themselves to or learn from, like, you have to be willing to have a conversation about your art.
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:27.599
Otherwise, you're just putting it out there and you're in a vacuum.
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:36.799
And, you know, I think a lot of writers especially don't really want to be visible, and it makes me sad because you could be doing so much more with your writing if you are willing to be out there.
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:37.599
Yes.
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:46.559
That was the biggest thing I learned in college because I went to art school and class number one, you gotta stand up and you gotta talk about your art.
00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:48.960
You gotta talk about what you did and why.
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:54.880
And if you couldn't, you literally missed out on half of the point.
00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:11.680
And like the professors would say, if you can defend your stuff, if you can defend your reasoning, and I don't necessarily agree with your execution, a hundred percent you will be getting a good grade because that's the whole exercise.
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:33.119
And I it hasn't invented it hasn't been until like I started doing like the podcast part of the writing journey, is that that was one of the most valuable lessons I think I learned was being able to talk and connect and not just let your art speak for itself.
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:35.519
Like, no, you are the voice box for it.
00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:36.079
Yeah.
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:49.039
So yeah, I think outside of this too, I feel like we're gonna be emailing you a lot of questions on how you handle certain things and uh with your how long you've been around and doing this for.
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:54.880
But since day one, we've like on this podcast have talked about visibility.
00:29:55.039 --> 00:30:09.599
And even like you said, with like law of attraction in the universe, is if if you are if you are not putting your energy and making yourself visible in the community at least, then how do you expect the community to like give that energy back to you?
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:10.880
It's so true.
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:14.240
It's so refreshing to hear your perspective on that.
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:18.640
Yeah, and you've got to be willing to be seen and also misunderstood.
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:21.039
You know, like not everybody's gonna get it.
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:24.799
Not everyone's gonna like what you're doing, not everyone's gonna understand what you're doing.
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:31.519
I I experienced that a lot when I went from writing like personal and professional development books.
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:38.640
Like I got kind of like was like put on the map, so to speak, from my book called Girl Code, which was all about like women supporting women in business.
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:44.480
And then I jumped over to writing this like wild dating memoir, and like a lot of people didn't get it.
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:45.920
A lot of people weren't interested.
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:47.839
I have people tell me that they unfollowed me.
00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:49.599
They're like, I wasn't interested in your content anymore.
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:52.400
And I'm like, okay, great, but fine, you know.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:54.079
But people are vocal about it.
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:57.119
And there are there are people who just, you know, don't understand.
00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:59.440
And I also realize like it's a risk.
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:13.839
You know, like being an artist, which we are as writers, is risky because you're willing to share parts of yourself that, you know, may make you look not as stable as maybe you want, right?
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:14.319
When you're kids.
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:15.839
That's the nicest way to put it.
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:16.240
Yeah.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:20.640
That is I don't read it as stable as I want.
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:24.160
I told on myself hardcore in this book.
00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:26.079
Like, I told on myself.
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:32.400
Like, there's Chris stories in there, and like I took a risk because again, I was known for this like one thing.
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:34.640
I was like this woman who had all her shit together, you know.
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:45.039
And then I'm talking about going on these like drunken benders with this guy in a Chinatown hotel, you know, like so, like people, I'm sure, were like, whoa.
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:55.839
But again, it's all truthful and it's it's the realization of like, okay, this was a blip, a time in my life where I was really figuring things out and I gave myself a lot of grace for it.
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:00.799
And I think we all have periods in life like that where it doesn't look as perfect on the outside.
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:04.400
I just think people aren't willing to put it in print always.
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:17.519
But it also is very different than what you're what is considered traditional for social media of the perfect, pristine, aesthetic, all of that.
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:26.160
And when you put those two things next to each other, it's it's really cool when it when it all works together and it creates a really cool picture.
00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:30.160
But yes, I can see exactly how that makes people uncomfortable.
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:30.720
Yeah.
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:32.480
And it's very beginning.
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:32.960
Okay.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:34.960
Oh, go ahead, Kate.
00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:47.359
Okay, I was just gonna say, like, I was gonna ask kind of what your advice is for handling that type of adversity on here on social or like with your audience.
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:50.559
You know, you have to have a lot of conviction in what you're doing.
00:32:50.720 --> 00:33:08.000
And I think any time that I got a little shaky, like reading a comment or like seeing something online, like written about me, I had to like come back to like my why, as cheesy as that sounds, but I had to come back to the part of me that was like, this book had to come out of me.
00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:10.960
Like I'm obsessed with it, you know, like I'm obsessed with everything.
00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:12.799
I think we should all be obsessed with what we do.
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:16.720
You know, like like I know it sounds weird, but like I'm obsessed with my work.
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:21.039
If you don't love what you're doing, what do you what's the point?
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:21.279
Right.
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:28.240
So like I had to come back to like this feeling of like I love this so much, and like I would read this if somebody else was writing it.
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:32.480
So like there's no negotiating with your truth, right?
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:39.039
You can't negotiate with yourself in your own honesty, otherwise you're selling out and you're you're what's the point?
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:41.599
You know, you might as well go back to whatever you were doing before.
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:48.000
So, like, I guess realizing that, like, you know, when you put yourself out there, there's gonna be opinions.
00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:54.960
But if you know and you're convicted about what you're doing and why you're doing it, none of that stuff should matter.
00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:59.680
And again, I think if you're pleasing everybody, like this is the biggest thing I tell all my writing clients.
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:12.800
I'm like, you need to let go of your people pleasing, like from the start, if you're gonna write, you cannot let that be in your head because you're gonna water yourself down so much that like you're just no one's gonna care.
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:16.960
You're not gonna write anything interesting because it's just gonna be so safe, you know?
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:17.840
Yes.
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:25.599
You know that part of the show where other podcasts try to convince you that your mattress is out to get you?
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:29.519
Well, this is that part, except we skipped the mattress and brought you a book.
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:31.920
So, welcome to the book break.
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:34.880
And since it's our very first one, we picked a really good one.
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:39.519
Today's book is Liar Liar, the debut romance from Lucy Lee.
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:45.679
Lena is broke, jobless, and the accidental winner of a hundred thousand dollar love story contest.
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:50.960
The fine print, she needs a real couple to claim the money, and she is extremely single.
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:56.400
So she talks Mac, her favorite banter buddy, from Liars Anonymous into fake dating her.
00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:59.519
And the lie does not stay a lie for very long.
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:05.679
So if you live for fake dating, forced proximity, and a slow burn of secret pining, this one's got your name on it.
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:09.840
It's open door and steamy, and about three out of five chili peppers.
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:11.599
Our favorite line from the book?
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:17.119
Quote, of all the lies I've ever heard before, I love you is my favorite.
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:19.199
Liar Liar is out now.
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:20.320
Link is in the show notes.
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:23.039
But yeah, I really want to go into pink ink and like how that started.
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:26.800
What the girls are doing, like what's the update, what's going on today.
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:29.119
Like, I don't just like dive right in with that.
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:32.559
Cause who doesn't, first of all, love the name?
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:33.280
Brilliant.
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:34.079
Seriously.
00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:35.840
It's the whole brand.
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:37.280
You guys want to die?
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:46.239
I came up with that name when I was 17 and I had a music zine, and I wanted to be, I wanted like a music, I wanted to start like a marketing company for bands.
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:47.760
I don't know, my little teenage self.
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:49.199
And I was like, I'm gonna call it Pink Inc.
00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:51.360
And that name just stayed with me like forever.
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:57.519
So I like knew I would use it at some point, and it just made more sense, even more sense for like my publishing company.
00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:02.880
But um, I started as a self-published author because I was rejected by 19 publishers.
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:06.800
And then Girl Code, which was my fourth self-published book, took off.
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:10.639
I sold close to 100,000 copies on Amazon by myself in the first year.
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:14.079
It was like insane, like total crazy.
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:19.039
So Penguin Random House, of course, came knocking, as did a lot of other publishers.
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:20.800
Um, we want to publish you.
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:26.079
And I was still like, I thought I had taken the book as far as I could on my own.
00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:31.199
Um, I thought I was gonna become like a New York Times bestseller, which is all bullshit, as we know.
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:33.440
So I signed a deal.
00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:39.440
I signed a double book deal with them, and I sold the rights to Girl Code, and then I did this book, like She Owns the Place.
00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:46.480
And you guys, it was the most disheartening experience of my life, like working with the traditional publisher.
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:49.119
I could do a whole episode on that and how awful it is.
00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:51.440
Yes, we hear it all the time.
00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:57.280
It was so and I was already like a I was already an author that was like selling books.
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:00.400
So like I assume that I got great treatment.
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:06.079
I can't imagine a new author coming in how they felt, because if I felt cited, I had a great advance.
00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:06.800
I will say that.
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:10.719
Although I did speak to an agent later on, she's like, they should have given you so much more.
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:14.320
But like it was, I thought it was a decent advance, and I I had this vision.
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:16.400
I thought like I still wanted to be chosen.
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:24.559
You know, I was like, I still held on to that dream of like having this book deal, hated it, wound up not um optioning my next book.
00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:26.880
I just did it on my own, went back to self-publishing.
00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:31.599
But I I started like consulting for people years ago who wanted to write books.
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:35.039
And I do this course called self-publish with my friend Amanda Francis.
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:37.840
And I was like, I could do more.
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:38.960
Like, there's something here.
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:47.039
I want to start a publishing company, but I didn't have like millions of dollars to like offer advances and like pay for books to be published.
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:53.840
And I didn't want to sit there with a spreadsheet every month and be like, I'm keeping this much of the royalties and you'll get this much.
00:37:53.920 --> 00:38:03.280
And it went against everything I believed because I hated the fact that yeah, I got a great advance from Penguin, but like I still haven't earned it out almost 10 years later, you know?
00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:08.719
Because, yeah, because and I've sold a lot of books, like a lot of people don't know that that's how it works.
00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:10.159
People have no idea.
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:11.519
You're gonna pay your advance back.
00:38:11.599 --> 00:38:16.239
And not only do you pay it back, but you pay back your portion of the book.
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:23.280
So if a book is$17 and your royalty rate is like 10%, you know, like do the math.
00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:26.159
It takes a really long time for you to, you know, make that money back.
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:33.039
So anyway, I was like just sitting there one day and I was uh working with um Mariana Peace.
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:35.840
She's one of my clients, a writer, one of my writing clients.
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:40.000
And she, I was like, you know, gonna help her publish her last book, whatever.
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:43.119
And she's like, by the way, we were emailing one day, it was like last November.
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:46.400
She's like, if you ever start a publishing imprint, like I'm in.
00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:48.239
Like all the girlies will sign with you.
00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:51.519
And I was like, I turned to my fiance and I was like, this is it.
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:52.480
Like, I've got to do it.
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:55.119
I've got to figure out what that looks like.
00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:58.719
And I flew to New York like the next day to go visit my family.
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:02.239
And I was up there and I was just the whole thing just came to me, like on the plane.
00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:05.039
And I was like, I'm starting this publishing house called Pink Inc.
00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:11.599
I want authors to keep 100% of their royalties and a hundred percent of their rights, because those were the two most important things to me.
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:14.159
I was like, I'm not, I don't want to own this book.
00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:27.280
I basically want to take the model that I had, which was like consulting and strategizing, but turn that into a publishing house where I'd keep that relationship with that author long after the book was published.
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:30.159
So they essentially fund the book up front, right?
00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:32.880
They pay for obviously the production of the book.
00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:34.960
So I handle like the cover design.
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:39.679
I hire, I have an editor in-house who you should have on your podcast, by the way, but that's a whole other conversation.
00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:41.039
Zara Barry Loveless.
00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:42.159
Yes.
00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:44.079
Phenomenal writer.
00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:46.880
Um, we do the cover design, we do everything.
00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:50.800
So we like essentially essentially like produce the whole book for them.
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:52.800
And then they're part of the community.
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:58.320
So like anytime I do a literary salon, they come and read, I showcase them, I bring them into my world.
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:00.880
Um, and that's the way that we're able to run it for now.
00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:02.159
And it's going really well.
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:03.519
It's very boutique.
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:08.800
So I have three authors total, but I'm super passionate about their books and their messages.
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:11.119
And I really want to publish through Pink Inc.
00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:14.800
like books that traditional publishing is too afraid to take a chance on.
00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:21.760
New voices, bold voices, um, women that maybe don't have a massive platform but are in the beginning of building it.
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:25.760
And that's another thing that I do with my authors is I really develop their platform with them.
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:34.400
So I'm helping them with strategize their substacks, their social media, like they're under my wing essentially, like forever for as long as they want to be.
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:36.639
Um yeah, and we published their book.
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:38.639
So it's been really, really fulfilling.
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:40.960
And it just feels like this is what I should have always been doing.
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:45.920
But I had to kind of go down this road to get to this point where I figured out what it was.
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:51.679
I know we're like doing that for ourselves, Kate, but I just, I just weren't care to do it for me.
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:53.199
I know.
00:40:53.760 --> 00:40:55.840
Like sold, like okay, yeah.
00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:57.280
So, you know, literally.
00:40:57.519 --> 00:40:57.760
Yeah.
00:40:58.159 --> 00:40:59.039
But it's so important.
00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:02.880
I think that mentorship too is like not talked about enough in the community.
00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:10.159
Um, and mentorship programs, if you have one through like your writers group or whatever, are not great.
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:13.599
Like they're very like, what do we do with you?
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:16.239
And like they're very short, they're not long term.
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:21.920
And so, like, I I yeah, like to have a mentor is priceless.
00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:27.360
Yeah, and like I didn't get like when I signed my deal with Penguin, like they basically like own me forever.
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:30.800
Like, I can't get the rights back to Girl Code or like she owns the place.
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:33.599
And like I got all I got was a published book.
00:41:33.679 --> 00:41:35.119
Like they didn't really do anything.
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:45.920
Like I sold the books myself, like I promoted them, I set up my interviews, like I so I kind of looked at all the holes that were missing in that publishing process and filled them in in pink ink.
00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:50.000
And one of the biggest things was mentoring and being somebody that's been there.
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:54.800
You know, I have relationships with all of my foreign uh publishers.
00:41:54.880 --> 00:42:02.480
So, like my publisher in France, my publisher publisher in Bulgaria, like I send the manuscripts to them personally for consideration for translations.
00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:06.800
Like that stuff is all done, you know, very differently in the traditional world.
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:13.199
And if you're a self-published author, it's basically impossible to do that because you don't know those people and you don't have those relationships.
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:19.280
So yeah, being able to like mentor them and be like, okay, this is, you know, how you should work this.
00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:24.800
If they want to start a literary salon, like I'll talk to them about that and help them figure out how to produce a really great event.
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:34.880
So yeah, it's a very unique relationship, but it's something that I'm just like so passionate about because I just want every woman in the world to tell her story, as cliche as that sounds.
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:37.840
I think we all have like a book in us or 10.
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:39.199
Um, and we should have it.
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:40.320
Hell yeah, we do.
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:41.199
Yeah.
00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:42.159
Yeah.
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:43.199
Exactly.
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:44.239
Of course.
00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:44.960
Yeah.
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:46.079
My God, was it?
00:42:46.320 --> 00:43:01.599
I I that I love your story because I do think that that is such a common thing today, especially on social where you see indie authors who are super successful or who are selling, and then they do go trad because that always seems like maybe that's the goal.
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:05.679
Like it's just now I I've sold 10,000 copies of my book.
00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:10.559
So maybe now um Penguin or HarperCollins is going to be interested in buying it.
00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:15.440
And it's like, why aren't we talking about that's maybe like why?
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:16.639
You're you're killing it.
00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:17.679
You're selling so many.
00:43:18.079 --> 00:43:18.960
You're also killing it.
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:23.519
You're like, if you're selling 10,000 copies, you're making a really nice living off of your book.
00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:25.039
So like, why would you give that away?
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:31.119
Why would you give a lion's share of your royalties away just to say Harper Collins chose me?
00:43:31.280 --> 00:43:36.880
Like, and if you look at like, I don't know if you guys read Publishers Weekly, but I read it every morning and like everything is changing.
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:47.119
Like they're realizing, like Simon and Schuster has like a hybrid publishing company now because they're realizing that traditional authors that just we don't need publishers anymore.
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:48.719
So they're they're freaked out.
00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:59.679
And I think we just need to let go of that desire to be picked because that's really I mean, again, that's the only reason why I did it because I wanted to be, I wanted to say that I was a Penguin Random House author.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:02.639
You know, it's it's not worth it.
00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:03.920
Take it from me.
00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:05.440
Don't do it.
00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:06.239
Resist.
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:06.639
Yeah.
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:07.440
Yeah.
00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:14.079
And there's the fallacy that they're gonna put out their, you know, your they're gonna market your book or whatever it is.
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:16.000
The argument for going trad.
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:24.719
But when we've interviewed a lot of authors too that are HarperCollins or their bestseller, whatever it is, they're they're doing both.
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:25.519
They're doing both.
00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:28.079
They're putting out, they're putting out their trad.
00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:34.239
This book is appropriate for the trad space, but I'm gonna go write this other thing and I'm gonna publish it myself so that I own it.
00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:36.880
Yeah, not only do you own it, but you do it much faster.
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:43.199
It takes about, I would say, at least a year and a half before your book is coming out from the moment you sign the deal.
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:47.599
And that doesn't even count the time if you went the agent route and pitching.
00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:50.719
I mean, you're looking at like three years probably from start to finish.
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:53.039
Nobody has time to wait for that.
00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:57.840
Um, I don't know about you guys, but like I, when I have an idea, like it's gotta happen like yesterday.
00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:00.960
Like I want it now, like I don't have a lot of patience.
00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:05.119
I also think, like, again, not to bring up the universe and sound a little woo-woo, but I am.
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:07.760
Like, I believe in the energy of inspiration.
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:14.639
And when you have an idea for something, if you can move with it, I think that there's magic in that momentum.
00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:19.039
So, why create a bottleneck that is not gonna do a whole lot for you?
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:27.679
Like, when I I remember like the publicist that they put on my book was like, she had just, she was like an intern and it was like she was like an assistant publicist.
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:30.159
So she wasn't getting me any PR.
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:33.280
And I remember in the end when my editor left, she apologized to me.
00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:35.199
She's like, I'm really sorry that that happened.
00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:43.119
But like we do these like meetings where if somebody wants to work on a book, they get to, you know, ask to work on the book and she wanted to work on yours.
00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:47.679
And even though she was a junior publicist, like she didn't do, you know, a good job.
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:53.599
And I think they got me like two interviews on some like business blogs and like everything else I did on my own.
00:45:53.679 --> 00:46:03.039
Like all of my networking, connecting with people, appearing on podcasts, like I would send like DMs to people, like, you know, can I write for your whatever?
00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:05.199
Like it was just what was the point, you know?
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:14.960
So again, I know everybody has a different experience, but like I would say 99% of the authors I talk to that go trad regret it or are like wildly disappointed by the experience.
00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:24.800
And it's not going to, I don't know, it's not gonna let you focus on like the creative art part for as long as you want.
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:30.400
Like then you just get bogged in the details and the and the am I gonna make my advance?
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:32.239
Like, why am I doing this?
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:36.719
And you don't get to just sit and revel in what you did.
00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:38.559
And that was right a whole damn.
00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:42.079
Yeah, there's um, I'm trying to look up her name really quick.
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:44.000
Because she writes on Substack.
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:45.199
Amy is her name.
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:46.159
Hold on.
00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:53.039
I have to find her and show her you guys because she's very honest about her experience with writing and going the traditional route.
00:46:53.199 --> 00:46:54.239
Amy Chan.
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:55.440
Have you heard of her?
00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:57.440
Definitely look- I feel like I've heard her name.
00:46:57.519 --> 00:47:09.920
Yeah, I've sheard she wrote a post that went viral and it was um how she spent, I think, like$44,000 on ads for her book that she had a publisher for, by the way.
00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:13.440
And like basically got like no ROI for it.
00:47:13.519 --> 00:47:18.559
And she talks about like what she made off of her books and you know, just how I love transparency.
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:19.440
I love it.
00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:24.880
Me too, especially for writers, because I think people are just disillusioned.
00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:26.960
Like, I'm and I'm even honest about my books.
00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:30.159
Like, Girl Code was the breakout success, obviously.
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:34.880
But and like my books have done well, but like I'm not selling 100,000 copies every month of all my books.
00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:36.880
Like, there are months when things get slow.
00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:43.519
There are books that do better than others, there are books that are really slow and then get this like second life later on.
00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:45.119
So it really just depends.
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:53.360
And I think that, you know, the biggest thing that I'll say to anybody on here that's listening that wants to write a book is like keep your rights.
00:47:53.519 --> 00:48:05.360
Like, keep that book, self-publish it, or go with Pink Inc or someone like me who's like helping you and stewarding the book, but like just, I don't know, just be really wise and really smart.
00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:08.719
I think you can make a career as an author, but it also takes a lot more than books.
00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:18.480
It takes building an entire brand and platform around what you do, whether that's teaching, consulting, having a sub stack with paid subscriptions.
00:48:18.639 --> 00:48:22.400
Like there's a lot of different things that go into being a successful writer.
00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:36.159
Even when we started, like the whole reason why we started the podcast, Kate, was because everyone kept saying, like, you need a platform, you need a brand, you need to put yourself in the community and make space for yourself.
00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:41.679
And then we're like, okay, cool, like we're gonna be like far more attractive, like to agents and publishers and all of that.
00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:45.760
And then we're like, well, we're just gonna do it ourselves now.
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:49.599
At this point, that's yeah, and exactly what you're saying.
00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:56.400
Like at this point, why would I give everything that we've built away to somebody else?
00:48:56.559 --> 00:49:01.760
And it just becomes increasingly clear that this is not the way anymore.
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:09.119
Like we can go get our own, we can me and Jenna can go do an event right now at Love Struct if we want to, because we've built this, you know.
00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:26.480
Like I think and it's like, yeah, if you're out there like actively promoting yourself and and building that platform and building a community around you, then like you're you're also selling the rights and you're also selling all of that to somebody else, everything you've built, not just the work, right?
00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:35.920
And honestly, I think a lot of authors like sign deals to look cool in front of other authors, but the reader doesn't know, nor do they care.
00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:41.280
No one's flipping a book over, going, Oh, Simon and Chucer, I'm buying this.
00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:42.400
They don't know.
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:44.320
They don't give a shit.
00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:44.639
No.
00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:45.840
Oh, yeah.
00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:48.400
And it's just a crapshoot too with all of that.
00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:58.960
But I I honestly like the thing too with me is that if I got signed to like a two-book deal, the conversations we have with authors are like, yeah, and then for the second book, I just I don't know.
00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:01.920
I worked with my editor to come up with what would be good for the second book.
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:04.159
And I'm like, I couldn't work like that.
00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:09.119
Like, I need to have the idea, I need to have the passion, like already ready to go.
00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:11.760
I couldn't just be like, all right, let's pick up a pen.
00:50:11.840 --> 00:50:12.960
We gotta write a second book.
00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:17.440
But that's what everyone's doing when they have those deadlines and contracts too.
00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:18.400
It's the machine.
00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:26.400
I mean, I'll tell you, so like she, I so they bought Girl Code and then I I they sold, I sold the rights to like she owns the place, which is what the book became.
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:29.840
By the time that that book was out, I was like over that conversation.
00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:31.840
And I love that book and I'm proud of that book.
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:37.440
But like spending 18 months taught writing and talking about the same thing, I was exhausted.
00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:39.280
I was like on to the next thing.
00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:48.800
So you know, yeah, I think that you've gotta, you've just gotta trust yourself and also realize that like they need you so much more than you need them, you know.
00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:56.960
So then it makes you think, well, well, why am I gonna sign this deal and why would I give everything away if I'm the magic here, you know?
00:50:57.920 --> 00:50:58.960
I'm the magic.
00:50:59.039 --> 00:51:01.760
I need to put it on a sweatshirt.
00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:02.320
Yes.
00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:06.880
Oh, it is so refreshing to hear it from somebody who has been on all sides.
00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:07.280
Yes.
00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:08.079
All sides.
00:51:08.320 --> 00:51:08.639
Yeah.
00:51:09.039 --> 00:51:10.880
Like it's so nice.
00:51:11.199 --> 00:51:16.400
I really appreciate what you said though, about how we don't have the patience for it.
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:28.239
Because literally every we're we're getting to this point where media and consumerism and everything is very much geared towards millennial, elder millennial.
00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:33.599
Like it's that happy little place where we're starting to be the target.
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:37.679
But that audience also doesn't have time for that kind of shit.
00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:42.079
Like, if we want something, we will figure out how to get it done right now.
00:51:42.159 --> 00:51:44.079
We're not gonna wait until we're retired.
00:51:44.159 --> 00:51:46.079
We're not gonna wait until the kids are out of the house.
00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:47.840
We're gonna do things right now.
00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:52.320
Because if we're inspired for it, we're gonna make it happen.
00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:55.760
We're we were in chat rooms making it.
00:51:56.320 --> 00:51:57.199
We were in chat rooms.
00:51:57.360 --> 00:51:58.639
We're building MySpace pages.
00:51:58.800 --> 00:52:01.280
What makes you think I'm not gonna publish my own fucking book?
00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:08.079
Literally, we were writing our own versions of our favorite entertainment.
00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:13.599
We were like, you know, like we were doing fan fiction before it was fan fiction.
00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:14.719
It's so true.
00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:16.320
It's like, yeah.
00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:25.440
So I don't, I like I'm it's just really nice to to just say that out loud on this podcast because it's stuff that we say to each other behind the scenes.
00:52:25.519 --> 00:52:31.280
And so thank you for bringing it, bringing it out here on Mars Validate.
00:52:31.599 --> 00:52:33.440
Like it's yeah, it's a validation.
00:52:33.519 --> 00:52:35.599
So it's yeah, anyway, thank you.
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:37.119
I'm yeah, I appreciate you.
00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:38.960
Thank you, ladies, so much for having me.
00:52:39.039 --> 00:52:39.840
This was amazing.
00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:43.760
Like, I seriously really, really like loved connecting with both of you and I appreciate it.
00:52:43.840 --> 00:52:48.480
And if you have any questions or anything, or you just want to vent ever, I'm here.
00:52:49.039 --> 00:52:49.440
Thank you.
00:52:49.840 --> 00:52:51.840
Dude, I've yeah, I've needed that.
00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:59.679
Think we've needed somebody like you to just be able to talk to you about some of these decisions and like just getting advice and bouncing ideas off of.
00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:03.440
Um, so we're really happy to connect with you for sure.
00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:06.159
So you'll be you'll definitely be getting emails.
00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:06.800
Yes, for sure.
00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:11.360
Yeah, so just keep your energy protected and don't worry about being nice because it doesn't matter.
00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:14.639
Yeah, there's been a lot of protecting energy.
00:53:14.800 --> 00:53:15.039
Yeah.
00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:18.960
I'm oh my gosh, we need to have some woo-woo conversations too.
00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:24.079
I feel like we I feel like we could talk about more than yeah.
00:53:24.159 --> 00:53:25.679
I feel like you said Google.
00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:26.239
I was like, what?
00:53:26.480 --> 00:53:27.440
No, some woo-boo.
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:28.400
Woo-woo.
00:53:28.639 --> 00:53:29.039
Oh yeah.
00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:29.679
Uh mm-hmm.
00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:30.639
I love that stuff.
00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:31.119
Okay.
00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:32.159
All right, good.
00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:33.920
I'm very excited about this.
00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:34.960
We'll let you go.
00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:38.480
This has been another episode of Marks in Manuscripts.
00:53:38.639 --> 00:53:39.760
Thank you for listening.
00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:41.760
Your hosts are Jenna G.
00:53:41.920 --> 00:53:51.840
Judith, Kate Wynelevich, our writer and public relations manager is Kate Wynellovich, music by John Wynelovich, editor, Jenna G.
00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:54.239
Judith, creative direction, Jenna G.
00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:57.840
Judith, and our podcast manager, Kate Winelovich.
00:53:58.239 --> 00:54:02.159
Don't forget to like, follow, subscribe, all that jazz.
00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:05.760
Visit our website at Marketmanuscript.com.