Sarah Wright: The Conversations Great Leaders Don’t Avoid

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Hello and welcome to an episode of the Manifacts Leaders Podcast.
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My name is Mark Bracknell, and the Minding Director, Theo James Recruitman.
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Today we're welcome on Sarah Wright, a leadership coach.
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Sarah was fantastic.
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Such a brilliant added value session here, where I honestly feel like I was stealing her time because she gave me so many gold nuggets that I'm going to take away.
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We talked about so much.
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We talked about the conversations that keep you up at 4 a.m.
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The conversation as a leader you should be having and you're putting off.
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And we talked about techniques and tips to actually how to do those and have those structured conversations.
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We talked about the problem in manufacturing that most people leave because of poor management.
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The fact that most people are promoted in manufacturing and haven't got a clue how to manage.
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We've never been effectively trained how to manage.
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And we talk about exactly what companies need to do to change that.
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And obviously, that change comes from the top.
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Any form of change comes from the top.
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We talk about AI, we talk about how leaders are using or should be using AI effectively.
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And we talk about the evolution of management leadership.
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Honestly, this is going to be one of those episodes which is not only encouraging and positive to hear, but you're going to take away so much.
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You're going to change something of the back of listening to this episode.
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So thank you very much for doing this episode.
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Massively appreciated.
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And uh please, please, please, as ever, like or subscribe to the help grow the channel.
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Thank you very much.
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Hope you enjoy the episode.
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Hello there.
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So a massive welcome today to uh Sarah Wright.
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Sarah Wright is a leadership coach from Career is Career Space.
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I'm very, very lucky to have Sarah on the show today.
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So how are we doing, Sarah?
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You okay?
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Very well, thank you.
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How are you?
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Very good, thank you.
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Very good.
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So loads to talk about today, but the same first question is the same question ask everyone that comes on the show, which is what does it mean to you to be a leader?
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What do you say?
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The most important thing for me in leadership and the thing that I've learned through 20 odd years of doing this is to my my why is supporting people to be the best that they can be.
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Um, and I think that means getting to know people individually, understanding what drives them, making sure they're giving their, you're giving them feedback and setting them up to be successful.
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Because if everybody in an organization feels like that and is successful, that becomes a multiplier for growth and productivity.
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Nice.
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I I'm really interested in your journey of why you got to where you are today, because obviously I'm interested, I guess, that I'm in in why you do what you do.
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So can you give us a brief background, sir, of your sort of career history and what led you to do the role you are in now, if that's all right?
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Absolutely.
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So I started out when dinosaurs roamed the earth in um in optical retailing, um, and I absolutely loved it, but I always loved the people's side of it and very quickly sort of got promoted to look after that.
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Um, I think the but the the I just love that you never knew what was gonna happen next.
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I remember one day one of my team being really upset and couldn't get any sense out of him and you know, trying to calm him down.
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And eventually he asked me if he could have some bereavement leave because his hamster had died.
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And I think it was then I knew that leadership was for me because you just never know what's gonna happen next.
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Um, so did that for a long time, eventually was an area manager and looked after all the LD and HR stuff for Scotland, which was lovely because I'm, you know, looking after a whole region.
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Um, took some time out to have my children and then went back into people roles after that.
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And just watching the evolution of leadership and how people are much more interested in supporting people and recognize the benefits of that, absolutely is what I live to do.
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I absolutely love it.
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Um, my last two corporate roles, I helped organizations to sell, um, which was a lot.
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Um, one acquired by Accenture, so massive consulting organization, one then P investment, which changed the business quite a lot.
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Um, and and just was seeing the same themes coming up all the time.
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You know, senior leaders want to do more, want to do better, but are scared to have conversations because they don't want to see and do the wrong thing.
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Um, and when I took some time out, I decided that's really where I wanted to focus my time because I think that's where you can get the most benefit for organizations.
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Yeah, I completely agree.
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It's interesting because two things you mentioned there, the evolution of leadership, because I agree, I think there has been evolution, and even the last 10 years, I think it's been a huge, huge transition in the way people manage.
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But actually, your example there is quite interesting in terms of the breeding lead for a hamster.
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Because actually, on paper, people look at that and go, that's ridiculous.
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But actually, when you're a leader and your manager, you realize that every situation, every person is different, and something you know, the it's I guess it's typically for leader is someone's dog died.
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And actually, for some people who let's say never had a dog, don't understand it, they just want it to sit okay.
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For the other people who go, Well, that's part of the family, that you know, that that's gonna affect them very differently.
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So I think you have to almost become a leader to realise and appreciate how different scenarios are because it's such a difficult because that you've got to be careful, make of off your own back, and you allow one and others, it's it's not it's so multifaceted, isn't it, for that type of stuff?
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Absolutely, and I you know there is no one rule for everybody, there's no one situation, but I think it's also important to say that sometimes there is bad behavior as well, and it's okay to call that out and it's okay to deal with that, but it's having the confidence in order to be able to do that.
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Um, I uh one of the first manufacturing organizations I ever worked with, that I went in to see them.
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And the question that if I'm doing HR consulting, because I've worked in in head of people roles for a long time, um, and sort of CPO type roles, the the um the first question that I'm always asked is, am I allowed to say that?
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Am I allowed to do that?
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Which really makes me it makes me feel bad for people that they feel in that situation.
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But this manufacturing company said to me, We've got a situation and we've heard that you're good at getting kind of no nonsense and getting to the bottom of things.
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And I said, All right, okay.
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And they said we've got this receptionist and she doesn't like to answer the door and she doesn't like to answer the phone.
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And I said, Oh, okay, that's kind of the basic tenant of a role.
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I said, So who's doing those things?
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Oh, it's the MD.
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So we've got this person who is leading an multi-million pound organization, fantastic technically at what they do, but doesn't want to have a conversation with someone who's not doing their job.
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But the thing that really sticks with me about this is I said to them, um, okay, how long has this been going on for?
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And they kind of looked at me and looked a bit shippish.
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And I said, There's no judgment here.
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What's you know, what's what's the problem?
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And they said, it's it's been happening for 13 years.
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So there's an organization where someone who could really be making business change and driving forward is scared to have a conversation with someone who isn't doing their job because they don't want to see or do the wrong thing.
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And if someone like me can come in and say, okay, you know, how do we work this down?
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How do we break it down?
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How do we get to a pragmatic result that's going to benefit the business and the individual?
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Surely that's what we all want to be thinking about.
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Yeah, 100%.
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Because obviously it comes from the top, doesn't it?
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And if people, if people see the the MD imaging people like that, then they probably, like you say, they're probably scared to can can they say that?
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Can they mind some a certain way?
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Because, you know, monkey sees monkey do, and and they just presume that's the way to go about things, isn't it?
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Absolutely.
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And it's it's sad, and it's sad for everybody involved.
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Because when when this person, the per the receptionist eventually left the business and she said thank you at the end, you know, thanks.
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I've kind of been stuck in a rut.
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This isn't really what I wanted to do.
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We dealt with it in a human way, and I think that for me is the biggest difference in leadership.
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When I first started out in this, it was personnel, it was process, it was paper files for people.
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Now it's about having a conversation.
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And the best advice I was ever, ever given about looking after people is you don't need to respond to anything in the moment, ever.
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It's always okay to say, I'm just gonna have a we think about that and come back to you.
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Because I don't know how many times at the beginning of my career I thought someone would say something completely out of the blue, and you would think, Oh god, I have to respond to this right away.
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You don't.
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You've always got time, you've always got space.
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Don't ever feel like you have to act in the moment.
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Yeah, that's such such good advice.
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I just think you feel we had this conversation over there, didn't we?
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That you feel as a leader, you've got to put out every single fire, you've got to find solutions.
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And and you know, COVID probably is a good example of that.
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All these questions that we had, and we didn't have the answers, but we I think there was a pressure to make people feel calmer that we had to do that straight away.
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But actually, like you say, sometimes in the moment, you might not be making the right the best decision in that situation.
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Actually, that that doesn't bring calm, that brings that creates more panic.
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Absolutely.
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And it's about particularly during COVID and the organizations I was working with then, it's about having a good team around about you, and you've got real psychological safety.
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I think there's this misnomer that psychological safety is about, you know, everybody skips in to work with bluebells flying, bluebells, bluebirds flying around their head, and it's like a Disney film, it's not like that at all.
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It's about being able to look it in the whites of each other's eyes and say, that's a terrible idea, and we should not do that because, you know, but it's giving people the confidence in order to be able to see that and to speak up.
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That's the real multiplier for businesses, you know.
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It doesn't all sit on the MD or the senior leadership team.
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Everybody's taking responsibility.
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100%.
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I've been quite open on here before about my battles with leadership and management and and sort of just forever trying to sort of be better at it.
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And and it's interesting one because you've you're absolutely right with the being scared to have those certain conversations.
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I definitely went through that when I was I didn't have the conversations, I was scared to have the conversations.
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I think it came for a place that a lot of leaders go for this, they don't want to make someone feel a certain way.
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If if you know what you're gonna say is gonna put some out and make them feel, but actually, it's the they're the conversations that are are stopping any form of progression, and it's a hard lesson to learn that.
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Absolutely.
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If you don't have those conversations and the the coach in me and the questions in me, I always ask, you know, well, if you don't have that conversation, what are you robbing this person of?
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You know, they become stymied and they're stuck and they don't want to move forward.
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You know, so many people leave organizations because they don't feel invested in, they don't feel like they can have those conversations or grow with their leader.
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That's where the magic happens.
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And and you know, I openly, for the first 10 or 15 years of my career, I was firmly stuck in the let's have a nice chat about something.
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Yeah.
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Let's let I know all about your family and I know all about your situation and I know all about how you feel about this.
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And you're absolutely not doing your job, but I don't want to tell you that because I want you to like me.
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Yeah.
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So they get stuck where they are.
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I'm frustrated.
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I then take on all of that work.
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Where does that leave us?
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That's you're never gonna you're never gonna move forward in that situation.
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So it's about giving people that confidence to say, you know, and you know, we've got various models and various things that that you can do.
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But how are you actually going to have a conversation that leaves them feeling like I might be smarting a little bit, but I know what's expected and I know how I'm gonna move forward, and you actually see progression in your team.
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That's that's the golden ticket, really, isn't it?
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Yeah, 100%.
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Well, you manufacturing manufacturing is a good example.
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I'm sure other industries suffer from this as well.
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But many situations where they will promote within, which I think is great, but they'll often do it based on someone's performance in in, let's say, a technical job, and they'll promote them to a manager in many instances without any formal or even unformal informal training.
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Do you see that quite a lot when you get into when you go into organizations?
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Honestly, that's why we're doing what we're doing just now.
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So when I left my last corporate role, I spent some time doing some coaching with people, senior leaders looking for new roles, and the same theme came up every single time.
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I don't like what I'm doing, I don't feel like I've got support from my leaders, and I feel like I'm stressed all the time because I've got responsibility for a group of people and I don't really know what I'm doing.
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And these were people who were really technically competent people who'd risen up the ranks and organizations and were really good at what they did.
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But then all of a sudden, the reward for that is here's a team of people to look after.
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The skills that you need to look after a team of people are completely different than the skills that you needed in order to be successful.
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And we see both of those things as success, but probably the people thing is weighted a bit more heavily.
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I ran a session last week in a manufacturing organization, actually, and it was a one-hour quick stop, how to have a difficult conversation.
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And I was kind of packing up at the end and I was aware there were some people, and I kind of looked up, and there's a couple of people standing there, and one of them said to me, I've been doing this for 25 years, and no one's ever, ever had these kind of conversations with me.
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And I asked them at the beginning of the session, how many of you have a convers, you know, need to have a conversation with someone in your team, and it's making you wake up at four o'clock in the morning and you're absolutely avoiding it because you don't want to do it.
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And about 10 hands went up, and I put my own hand up as well, not now, but in the past, because you don't want to do it, but it doesn't need to be like that.
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It really, we can take the sting out of that.
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What um without giving away all your secrets, what what advice would you give?
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Because there will be a lot of people listening going, yeah, absolutely right.
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I'm not, you know, they've put that at the back of their mind because they don't, for whatever reason, want to want to have that conversation with someone.
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If someone is stuck in that now, and let's say driving to work thinking, right, I've put that off for weeks, what advice would you give them to change that situation?
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The first question that I always ask people when I'm coaching it is okay, doing nothing is an option, not having that conversation is an option.
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But if you do nothing, are you gonna phone me in six months' time and say this is worse or it hasn't changed at all?
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Or and 99 times out of a hundred the answer is gonna be yes.
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Yeah, not doing anything might be an option, but it's probably not the best option.
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I use a model for this, you know.
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It's think about the feedback that you want to give.
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It's got to be specific, it's got to be supportive, it's got to be true, you know.
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People when people say to me am I allowed to see that, my first question is, well, is it true?
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And is it discriminatory?
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And when you give the feedback, is it going to change a behavior that's gonna make things better?
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If you can tick those three boxes, you can say whatever you like.
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Yeah, no problem in that at all.
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Are you focusing on the future?
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Are you making sure this person knows exactly what's required of them and writing it down and sharing it with them so that you can both come back and look at it?
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But I think the biggest one for me is making sure that the conversation is emotionally intelligent.
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Yeah.
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When are you having this conversation?
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Has the person just told you that they've had a terrible morning and their teenager wouldn't get out of bed and they lost the cat and you know the car wouldn't start, all of those things.
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That's not the time to be saying to someone, while we're on it, I really noticed that you were not good in that project meeting last week and I didn't like the way you behaved.
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Don't do it.
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The other thing to avoid, and this comes up all the time when I'm talking to leaders, is um that's when you say to someone, can we have a chat later on?
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Yeah.
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Day's ruined.
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They're day, they're weak, they're months.
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By the time you get to that conversation, the fear center in their brain has completely taken over and they can't think straight any longer.
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And it's not, you know, it's not a weakness, it's a it's a physiology thing.
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Don't do that.
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Have the conversation with them in the moment or say, you know, I need to book some time in because I'd like to give you some feedback about this so that we can move forward in a way that's gonna work for everybody.
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Okay, yeah.
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Dead simple.
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So you you're giving them you're giving them the outcome, essentially, which is a which is a positive outcome, which reinforces that that there isn't going to be a negative end result and conclusion.
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Absolutely.
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It's about support and help and supporting you to be the best that you can be.
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Yeah, it's interesting what you said about feedback there.
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The I did a we had an interview here yesterday, really, really, really strong interview.
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Um, and I asked him what questions have you got, and he had a great question.
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He said, he said, in my last role, we had training around feedback.
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He said, how we give feedback to other people, whether irrespective if if we're a manager or not.
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Is that something you do here?
00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:16.879
That was a great question, actually, and really challenged me.
00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:20.080
And and you know, off the back of that, we're making some some changes.
00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:22.879
So, how much does that come up?
00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:26.480
Feedback in terms, I mean it links into what you're saying, but how how strong is that?
00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:31.919
I think feedback is the key, it's the the thing that makes the biggest difference in organizations.
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:41.120
People have to know how they're doing, they have to know when they're doing well, they have to know you know when they need to keep doing more of what they're doing, but also when things need to change a little bit.
00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:42.639
And I think it's so important.
00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:48.960
And that feedback can be in a formal way, it can be in a quick shoot from the hip kind of way.
00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:50.240
You know your people best.
00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:53.440
If you get to know them, you'll know what's going to work best for them.
00:16:53.679 --> 00:17:03.919
And I think that's one of the things that we do as part of our leadership training programme is that we do short, sharp training, but then we have one-to-one coaching with all the delegates.
00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:11.519
So what gives them the opportunity to say, okay, we spoke about this in the classroom, you know, there was a model or whatever the training in another classroom.
00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:22.880
But you know, actually, what I what came up for me then was I've got this person, and then we coach them to come up with a way that's going to work for them and work for the organization.
00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:32.400
So it means that when they have that training, I don't know how many times I've spoken to orgs and they say, Well, you know, we spent 50 grand on a training program, but I've still got people who won't give feedback to their teams.
00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:36.480
Like that just is insane to me.
00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:51.440
You we need to get people into that coaching mindset of asking the right questions, coming up with the solutions, coming up with our own solutions, because that sticks and that drives behavioural change and drives cultural change in an organization, and that's where the magic really happens.
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:54.720
And you've mentioned questions quite a lot, which is really interesting.
00:17:54.880 --> 00:18:09.680
So, do you believe that feedback should be more about the curiosity and being inquisitive and asking uh asking more open-end questions versus the I've got to prepare and deliver this feedback based on everything I feel is is is right or wrong about that, would you say?
00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:10.880
Or is it a balance?
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:11.440
Absolutely.
00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:12.720
I think it's a balance.
00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:16.559
I think you know, I would love to say we live in a world where that would always work.
00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:22.960
But there are times when things go wrong and you need to have a conversation that says, God, that was completely unacceptable.
00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:25.200
How are we going to move forward from this?
00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:30.559
But also that curiosity about why something happened is really important for me.
00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:32.880
I don't know why someone did what they did.
00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:39.279
They could have thought that there was a great reason for them behaving in the way they did, or taking a series of decisions in the way that they did.
00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:44.880
And that's where that psychological safety piece that plus curiosity equals growth for me, you know.
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:47.839
I was really interested in what happened in that meeting.
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:49.759
Can you talk me through why?
00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:50.960
Yeah.
00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:59.359
And not in a, I'm shining a light in your eyes and I've got an agenda, and I genuine curiosity is what's going to make the difference for people, I think.
00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:09.039
Yeah, I guess in a lot of your work, you'll be you'll you'll the initial 90, 60, 90 minute conversation, you'll probably learn a lot about that leader.
00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:17.759
Um, I appreciate every conversation is going to be different, but aside from the the fear of not being able to, you know, what can I say?
00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:18.640
Can I say that?
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:22.079
What else do you see crop up which you think, right?
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.519
Okay, there are common traits and challenges that we need to overcome, would you say?
00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:28.960
Um, I think tech now is a huge thing.
00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:36.079
We're trying to implement new, you know, digital learning programs and digital programs, and how are we going to take the people on the on the journey with us?
00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:36.319
Yeah.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:37.359
I think it's great.
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:40.720
I think anything that's going to drive efficiency has got to be a good thing.
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:48.240
You know, times are hard, manufacturing is hard, and you know, weak supply chain and new tech coming all the time.
00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:54.559
But unless you've got a good change program going on in your organization, that's never going to land.
00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:57.920
Because people roll their eyes and think, oh, here we go, it's something new again.
00:19:58.240 --> 00:19:58.640
Yeah.
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:01.039
That's such a problem for leaders at the moment.
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:03.440
And I'm a massive fan of Breni Brown.
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:08.079
And I was listening to one of her audiobooks yesterday, and she talks about this a lot.
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:20.799
You cannot go through any kind of change program, be it digital, be it something different in supply chain, be it, you know, the economic and the kind of social-political things that are going on in the world at the moment.
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:24.880
You cannot manage through that unless you've got your people in the right place.
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:32.079
And that's about being available to them and listening to them and making sure that you're taking their feelings and thoughts into consideration.
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:34.640
And again, building that psychological safety with them.
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:36.000
Yeah, great advice.
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:40.319
Apologies for interrupting this episode with a very quick announcement about my business.
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:46.400
Theo James are a specialist talent provider, specifically to the manufacturing and engineering sector.
00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:51.200
I'm incredibly proud of what we've achieved since our inception in 2015.
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:59.759
We specialise in roles from semi-skilled trades right the way up to our TJ Exec search arm of the business, both from the contract and permit side.
00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:08.240
We offer both bespoke one-off campaigns for heart of full roles or a full partnership service where we've become an extension of your business.
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:12.000
For any information, please get in touch with me or the team.
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:14.000
I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode.
00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:14.880
Thank you.
00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:21.039
The um the AI thing's really interesting because I agree that that will change the landscape completely.
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:32.240
How are you already are you seeing any leaders implement it effectively so far, because I think that's a lot, that's a hot topic which people want to hear what people have done, I guess, if that's all right.
00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:33.039
Absolutely.
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:37.920
And I think, you know, and I I absolutely I'm talking about myself here because I'm a bit of a dinosaur.
00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:42.640
I think at first I was a bit scared of it, and I am a people person through and through.
00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:47.839
And I thought, my goodness, you know, are they saying that this is gonna replace people and take HR out?
00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:57.839
And and I have heard leaders say that oh, we we don't need coaches in our organization anymore because AI can do it, you know, makes I get another wrinkle in a few more days and we take that.
00:21:58.400 --> 00:21:59.759
Um, but I think.
00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:06.559
The leaders who are using it most effectively are the ones that are saying, I still need to have a one-to-one with my people.
00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:08.720
I still need to have that conversation.
00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:19.680
But actually, I can record that conversation and then ask AI to pull out the objectives for me and then send it across to the person, and we can be on exactly the same page with what we're doing.
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:26.400
And rather than that, I don't have time to type up the notes from the conversation that we had, and it just then floats into the ether.
00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:28.640
You don't really, there's never really any follow-up.
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:30.000
It takes five minutes now.
00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:32.960
You have that, you've both got a record, you both know what's happening.
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:36.240
That's where AI is really coming into its own for good leaders.
00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:40.480
They're using it to enhance the conversations that they're having, not to replace them.
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:50.000
Yeah, I'm pleased you said that because I think it's interesting that there's a I think it's the lesson now, but I think there's almost like a stigma around your manager shouldn't do that, you know.
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:57.759
Because I had a situation recently where um I had to have a very difficult conversation with someone internally, and it was a conversation that again, it kept me up at four o'clock in the morning.
00:22:57.839 --> 00:22:59.759
And there was a there was a lot I wanted to say.
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:02.400
But I I used a minute, I'm using Claude.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.319
Um, I've won some chat GPT, Claude.
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:06.400
I feel like I'm cheating on it, but um uh here we are.
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:29.279
So the um and I I spoke for for an hour and a half to Claude prior to just to make sure that everything I got everything out that I wanted to get out, and I asked it to sort of prepare the meeting for me, in essence, because I'm someone who I'm quite passionate and quite emotional, and in the moment I'm I'm there, but sometimes I can forget certain things, and then the end go, I should have said that.
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:42.480
So this massively helped me, and I was um I was unsure how transparent it'd be to say, by the way, I've used because we we've been recording our meetings for for a while, so we're we're we're new to that, we're not new to that.
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:44.960
But actually, I wasn't sure whether to go for this meeting.
00:23:45.039 --> 00:24:15.440
Actually, I've used AI to help structure it because I, you know, there's a badge of honour to say as a mind you we shouldn't do that, but actually, I'm pleased I did because I said, Look, I've used it, it's gonna be a bit more structured, it is recording as it always recording is, and it enabled me to have such a better conversation because I already had sort of questions I wanted to prompt, and it was such a good end result that I don't think I would have had if I was pimped up and in the motion of it all, and and it was less structured, and I was in, out, in out, and it would be more of a conversation.
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:16.640
So I completely agree.
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:20.079
I'm really pleased you said that, and that's that's giving me a bit more confidence.
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:22.000
That is hopefully the the way to do things.
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:22.880
Absolutely.
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:29.119
You know, AI is here to stay, to not use it and to turn your back away from it would be the wrong thing to do.
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:30.799
But you know, use it.
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:34.640
I I was at a Salesforce event last week, I was invited along, which was lovely.
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:37.599
And um, the phrase that they use is the human in the loop.
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:46.160
And I do roll my eyes a little bit, you know, when having worked in massive corporate organizations, that sometimes these phrases can become a bit kind of oh god, here they go again.
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:47.039
But I like that.
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:49.759
I like the idea that you can't replace that human.
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:54.000
And I have I have two teenagers, one who's at university, one who's doing A levels.
00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:58.720
Um, and I keep saying this to them you can't just rely on what AI tells you.
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:04.319
You have to understand that if I'm using it, I'm also applying 20 odd years of knowledge and experience to it.
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:07.200
And I'm able to say, well, actually, I don't agree with that.
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:13.279
Or what if this happens, or what if something happens that I just can't predict?
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:15.440
Because that's the beauty of working with people.
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:19.599
Something will always come out of left field and you just don't know what to expect.
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:27.039
But as long as you're using it for structure and tip list and and an aid memoir almost, I think that's great.
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:28.880
Why wouldn't you use something that would help you?
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:30.000
Yeah, completely agree.
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:39.759
Which things nicely with just change management in itself because manufacturing is a really good example where you've got 17-year-old apprentices and you've got people two weeks from retirement.
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:44.640
Huge, huge difference in in age profile, culture, everything.
00:25:44.880 --> 00:26:03.279
And some there could be a massive difference between let's use AI, bringing that in for someone who is a year from retirement and has never used that and isn't using that in their daily life and wouldn't consider it, they're not even on social media, let's say for example, versus a 17, 18-year-old which is now growing up using AI.
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:09.200
How do you structure that in an organization to sort of change that to mind that change?
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:09.759
I guess.
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:19.279
That's one of the biggest challenges that organizations, manufacturing and all organizations are facing at the moment is that we have a more multi-generational workplace than we've ever had before.
00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:24.640
And it's really interesting, actually, because I do some early careers work with a massive global manufacturer.
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:27.920
Um, and I work a lot with their industrial placement students.
00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:29.839
So these are really bright sparks.
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:34.400
Year at university, I absolutely love it because I never know what's going to come next.
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:40.480
And I always actually feel, I probably shouldn't admit this, but I feel like I've learned as much in the session as I hope they have.
00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:48.079
Um, but one of the challenges that they have is, you know, we talk about giving feedback and having difficult conversations and psychological safety and all of these things.
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:55.599
And they'll say, that's great, but you know, my gaffer's someone who's been here for 400 years and he doesn't work that way.
00:26:55.759 --> 00:27:10.079
And what the organization is starting to do now is that we get the managers together of the people who are going to be looking after early careers people, and we have a conversation with them and we ask them what their challenges are, and we ask them what they're worried about.
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:17.680
We just run an open coaching group, coaching session, and at the end of it, you know, nine times out of ten, they'll say, I hadn't even thought about it that way.
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:25.759
You know, and and that's the power of coaching and the power of asking people the right questions that actually then people start to rub along a little bit better together.
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:33.759
And actually, that understanding that you can learn from the younger people as well as they can learn from you is where organizations really get it right.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:58.720
Yeah, so so I guess to take the concepts of a manufacturing site now, let's say there's there's a 50-strong SME and they wanted to make a change like that, then so you would encourage them to create groups within that of everyone, all ages and profiles, and and then this is the change, and and talk for that workshop it because, like you say, the let's say a 55-year-old lady or gentleman can can learn from a young apprentice.
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:00.559
So you would encourage that to do so.
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:01.599
Absolutely.
00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:11.440
And I think the most important thing in my job is to listen to organizations because I don't know, you know, I don't know what your values are or how you want it to work or what you want to happen.
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:18.000
And and you know, sometimes sitting down with a couple of smaller groups of people and saying, what's actually happening on the ground here?
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:19.039
What are we doing?
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:26.480
And then feeding that information back to the leadership team to say, this is what we've found, this is the data, this is the evidence for what people are saying.
00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:31.920
How are we going to work together so that I can support you in order to make this better for everybody?
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:46.640
I think that's the link that's missing sometimes for people like who do jobs like mine is they come in and say, well, this is what you need to do, and this is how you should do it, and this is what you I think the communication and clarity and confidence are the real linchpins of the things that people need to do.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:51.680
But how you implement that has to be bespoke for every single organization that you work with.
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:52.880
Yeah, agree by.
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:59.839
Because you're working, I guess, now with obviously that's the younger generation, and obviously you're working with um senior leaders as well.
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:16.240
If you get right back to the evolution of leadership, what differences have you seen now in terms of the traits of someone who is, let's say, a graduate, you know, and um, and and a lot of companies have you know graduate management programs versus what you know might have been the type of leader could be in round 20 years ago.
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:17.759
What changes have you seen now?
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:26.240
I think it's very easy for people like us to be dismissive of grads coming out now, and there's that whole thing about they want everything, they don't want to work, they don't want to.
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:28.960
Actually, in my experience, that's not the case at all.
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:32.720
They've got fantastic ideas, they're just a bit more boundaried than we were.
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:35.920
And honestly, I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.
00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:42.480
When I think about some of the things that I did when I started out and some of the hours that I work and some of the situations I got myself into.
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.759
If I think about my daughters, I would hate for them to be like that.
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:57.200
You know, when I worked in retail, it wasn't in the best area of Glasgow, and I used to face up to people who were shoplifting or, you know, and throw them out of the store and do I would hate for my kids to be doing things like that.
00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:04.559
And I think young people now are a lot more prepared to say that's not safe, or I don't think we should be doing it that way.
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:07.119
And I think we've got a lot to learn from them in that way.
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:12.160
They've got great ideas, sometimes they're wacky, but sometimes a wacky idea works.
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:18.400
And I think just to kind of go in with a preconceived idea of oh, they're all the same, it's it's just not true.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.400
And and that some of the challenge that I get, and sometimes they make me laugh.
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:29.359
I was I was doing a training session with someone a few months ago, and she said to me, I really like what you had to say.
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:31.200
Do you have a YouTube channel?
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:33.279
Really fell off my chair laughing.
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:36.880
And when I told my kids and my husband, they were like, Why would anyone want to listen to you?
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:44.960
So, you know, they've they've got some interesting ideas, but I think the key thing is to listen to them.
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:51.599
And when they do come up with something that's a bit wacky and a bit left field to say, do you think that would really work?
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:54.160
You know, how how would that work in practice?
00:30:54.400 --> 00:31:01.440
And then again, just adopting that coaching approach with them rather than saying don't be so bloody ridiculous, this is the way we've always done it.
00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:03.440
We've all got to learn and evolve.
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:05.119
So, you know, it's interesting.
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:19.680
I think you know, that's how I think companies evolve in a good way, because I think if you if you took uh any company really sort of 30, 40 years ago, the lines of leadership weren't blurred, and most people see that as like a good thing that you had leaders and people work for them.
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:27.200
But actually, if you flip that in its head, it's great the fact in a way now that companies are more open and encouraging to ideas from the floor.
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:35.839
And I think the best companies learn from people who are, you know, perhaps have only been in the business for six months or are actually on the shop floor.
00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:44.240
Because I think you can't just learn from the senior management team who might not see all the daily problems that are occurring, and things are changed all the time, aren't they?
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:48.720
Absolutely, and I think that's an idea that's been around for a little while, but I always think we could be better at it.
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:56.960
You know, I think about those the the kind of one of the first reality TV programmes that used to be on about back to the floor and getting down and listening to people, that's where the goal is.
00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:10.400
Yeah, the people that are actually doing the job and actually making the difference, and that's why I love working with senior leadership teams because culture 100% comes from the top, and people have to be bought and bought into that and on the journey.
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:17.839
But actually, for the nitty-gritty and the stuff that can make your business run really well, why would you not ask the people that are doing those jobs?
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:24.799
That that coaching question and curious mentality, that's where the really good organizations are getting it right.
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:29.119
Apologies to put you, this is uh this might sound like an interview question, it's not.
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:39.359
But what's um in your um coaching career so far, what's the what's the biggest example of something you've been so proud of that you've you've you've influenced, would you say?
00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:42.720
Um that was an interview question, so apologies for that.
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:43.920
Not a problem, God.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:45.759
My brain's going 10 to the dozen things.
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:49.920
Honestly, it's working with the grads in the early career people.
00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:53.920
Yeah, yeah, because you know, they'll they'll come up with things.
00:32:54.079 --> 00:33:06.079
One of the things I think is really hard for younger people in organizations is when they start in a job, they're not only expected to understand how the job works, they have to learn how to be a person at work.
00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:16.880
So, you know, when to use Teams, when to pick up the phone, when to email somebody, you know, who makes the tea around here, where are the toilets, you know, what's acceptable, when do you have your lunch?
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:18.880
All of these things that no one ever talks about.
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:25.920
And I was running a session with some um industrial placement students, and one of them came up to me at the end and said, Could you help me?
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:28.559
And I said, Oh, I'm always happy to help, you know, what do you need?
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:38.240
And she said, Some of the things that you spoke about there about culture and how things work around here, we could do a session for that for people when they start about all those things that I've just spoken about.
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:40.079
Can you help me put that together?
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:50.880
And that was one of my proudest moments because this person listened to what I had to say, saw a problem, was brave enough to come and talk to me and say, I've got a solution for this.
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:52.319
Will you help me do it?
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:56.000
And that for me is the epitome of why I do what I do.
00:33:56.160 --> 00:34:03.599
And I think I can make big change in boardrooms, but actually, she's a future leader and she'll carry that with her wherever she goes.
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:08.159
And to be, you know, involved at that grassroots level, that was fantastic for me.
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:24.559
And that's that's why a lot of the work I do now is with grassroots leaders to actually make a difference on shop floors so that when you pay money to have someone come in and do training, yes, I will absolutely do a session with the senior leadership team so that you speak the same language and you understand what's going on.
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:28.000
But let's really spend the time with the people who are making it happen.
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:30.400
That's where the that's where the change will happen.
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:38.400
It's fascinating as well because I think there's a massive succession problem with manufacturing, huge, huge, huge gap, a lot of great skills walking out the door.
00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:46.960
But I don't think not enough, I don't think enough companies utilize the skills they've got because I think they presume if someone doesn't want to be a manager, then they don't want to mentor.
00:34:47.039 --> 00:35:03.280
And the two are completely different for me because I think a lot of people who are, you know, let's say four or five years from retirement might not have the same drive as they did have 25 years ago, doesn't mean they won't have a unbelievable drive for mentoring those new people coming to business.
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:05.039
I don't think I don't think companies do it enough.
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:18.079
I think you're absolutely right, and I think that growth from within is the thing that makes really stable, productive, you know, engaged organizations because who doesn't want to stay in an organization where you can see there's real progression for me and I can go somewhere.
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:28.239
And I think the problem with that is that organizations ask those people who are closer to retirement and very experienced, can you just go and mentor this person or can you do some coaching with this person?
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:31.679
We don't actually give them the skills in order to be able to do that.
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:38.159
So then they're kind of muddling through and they might be using AI to say, well, what is a good coach, what is a good mentor?
00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:48.320
But actually practicing those skills in a kind of safe environment, first of all, really makes a difference and understanding the difference between coaching and mentoring.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:57.039
So, for example, I'm a coach, I ask lots of questions, I help people come up with their solutions, but I'll never be a pure coach because I'll never watch someone struggle.
00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:04.000
And if I think I know something that could probably help you here, I'll signpost it and I'll say, Can I step out of coaching for a moment here?
00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:05.440
Have you considered?
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:16.719
And I think those two things working together can be dynamite for organizations and really help their people to grow and grow into roles rather than being just dropped into them.
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:17.280
Yeah.
00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:34.800
Would you um what advice would you give to a manufactured company who wants to set up some, wants to change the culture and wants to set up and become a culture of of of leadership progression and wants to put like a training system or sort of school, I guess, in their site.
00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:37.119
What's the first things they should be looking at to do that?
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:38.880
So I guess it's not an overnight job, is it?
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:40.559
It's not an overnight job at all.
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:42.719
And I think we need to really think about that.
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:44.800
But I think there's huge opportunity there.
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:51.679
You know, our potentially future prime minister yesterday spoke about the reindustrialization of Great Britain.
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:54.800
If that's gonna happen, manufacturers have got an opportunity here.
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:58.000
And I really do think that that's where leadership becomes the multiplier.
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:01.760
But I think in order to be able to do that, I think you need to listen to your people.
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:08.400
I think you need to have a conversation with your people, and I think you need to make sure that your senior team are absolutely bought into this.
00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:16.480
This is not just something that's gonna be a flash in the pan and you know, we're gonna launch something exciting and say we're gonna do it, and then it kind of you know dwindles off.
00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:22.480
We have to walk the walk, we have to talk about these things, it has to run through the organization like a stick of rock.
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:24.880
And people like me can absolutely help you do that.
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:33.519
Let's have a conversation, but you need to listen to me, and equally I need to listen to you about what you want those outcomes to be and what the best way to do that.
00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:48.320
You know, if I was gonna give a glib answer that could be a sound bite and that people would take away and use, listen to your people, ask the right questions, understand what challenges they have, and understand how they can help you to succeed and achieve what you really want to achieve.
00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:49.519
Yeah, amazing.
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:53.280
Is there anything I've not uh asked yet that you wish I had?
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:54.079
What do you say?
00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:57.119
Um I don't think so.
00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:58.000
I don't think so.
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:01.920
I think it's just about that passion, having that passion for your people.
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:06.880
You know, manufacturers that obviously have a product most of the time and have something that they're putting out.
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:10.559
But if your people aren't on board with that, you don't really have a business.
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:15.760
You need to have those people in the right place at the right time, saying and doing the right things.
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:22.480
And if you can get all those things right and they feel supported and and led in the right way, the sky's the limit.
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:24.639
You're you know, you can you can achieve anything.
00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:27.440
I'm absolutely sure people will be listening to this thinking, right?
00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:30.000
I just need to uh I need to get Sarah read initially.
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:33.119
So if that is the case, what's the best way to contact you and find you?
00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:33.599
Sure.
00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:41.679
So our website is careerspace.uk, um, or they can email us on info at careerspace.uk um or find me on LinkedIn.
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:43.760
I'm always happy to have a have a chat.
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:48.639
Um, my LinkedIn is an eclectic mix of all sorts on there and and and how I'm feeling about things.
00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:58.159
But yeah, this is this is a relatively new part of what we're doing, but it's the culmination of all the years of experience that I've been working in the workplace.
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:03.039
Um and it really is the organizations that have adopted it, it's making a difference.
00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:16.480
You know, if you're gonna spend money, actually do it in a way that makes a difference to your business rather than teaching sort of esoteric theory and and all of that sort of thing, have it in a way that actually is going to make a difference and you get a ban for your buck.
00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:26.320
I think that's so important actually, because I think that the there will be some companies who will feel like they should do this two-tigger box rather than being on board and go, actually, I want to create long-term change.
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:34.239
Because I've fallen the trap of that sometimes and bringing an external trainer to fix a problem and then not learn the lessons and carry it, carry it through.
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:36.559
And I did that a couple of times in the early days with sales trainers.
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:37.679
I've gone, this is a problem.
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:42.480
We'll bring someone in, and then the culture hasn't changed and nothing, nothing changes.
00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:52.559
I think that's where our programme's slightly different because we do these sort of, as I said, quick sort of training sessions, but then there's a follow-on coaching session afterwards, and that's where it really makes the difference.
00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:54.079
That's where it starts to stick.
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:59.440
And it doesn't become something that you have to do on top of your day job, it becomes something that makes your day job easier.
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:00.960
And isn't that what we all want?
00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:03.519
Nobody wants something that's another thing to do.
00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:06.159
It's about actually making your life and your job easier.
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:13.119
And if I could do one thing in my career, it would be stopping people waking up at four o'clock in the morning because that's not healthy for anybody.
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:21.599
Real well-being lies in this stuff, not in you know, employee assistance programs or you know, running sessions in the workplace to learn a new skill.
00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:26.639
They're all great, but actually sometimes they can be like putting a sticking plaster over a gunshot wound.
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:33.679
Real systemic change where people feel supported is what's going to drive well-being and prevent burnout in your organization.
00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:34.480
Yeah, I love that.
00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:35.519
Look, I've I've loved this.
00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:36.239
I knew I would.
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:41.519
I feel like I'm cheating sometimes, getting free advice on here on podcasts because so uh um, but look, it's but it's been brilliant.
00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:48.639
And and I think you know, a lot of that, a lot of that resonates with me massively, and and it's um sometimes nice to think about your own journey.
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:55.360
And and I've I'm still that person every now and again that wakes up at four in the morning and probably always will be, but not as much as I was 10 years ago.
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:59.440
And I think that's the point that it's a it's a transition rather than an overnight job.
00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:05.760
But I I everything you said there makes complete sense, and and a lot of people we listening going, I have been putting that off.
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:09.280
Um, I should I need to have that conversation with them.
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:15.039
I think really, really good advice on the the AI piece and that side because it's still something that people battle with.
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:21.119
And I think, like you say, to use AI alongside that human element and your your emotional intelligence is absolutely needed.
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:22.719
But I completely agree with you.
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:31.039
The the message to listen to your people and everything comes from your people, from the shop floor right to the senior leadership team, is absolutely on the money.
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:32.000
So thank you, sir.
00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:32.880
It's it's been amazing.
00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:33.840
This so thank you very much.
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:34.719
We appreciate it.
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:35.760
Thank you for having me.
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:38.880
I've loved it, and I do know I I'm happy to have this conversation anytime.
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:39.840
It's my favourite thing.
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:44.079
Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of the Manufacturing Leaders podcast.
00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:49.599
Please just like or subscribe, it really helps grow the show and obviously improve the industry.
00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:55.920
If you want any more information about Theo James, as I mentioned midway through the episode, please get in touch with me or the team.
00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:59.760
I would love to talk about how it can help you directly or your business.
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:05.440
We are more than just a recruiter, and I know people say that, but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about.
00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:08.960
We are in business for much more than just a bums on seats approach.
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:19.920
We want to help people grow, we want to help improve their lives, and ultimately I want to work with businesses and people who share the same values as we do, and that's something I'm incredibly passionate about.
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:28.480
So please, if that is you and you are passionate about that dream role or passionate about your people, please get in touch with me or the team.
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:31.199
I would absolutely love to talk in a bit more detail.
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:32.159
Thank you very much.
00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:33.360
Speak soon.