Lauren 0:00
I'm so excited to introduce you to this week's guest on high school counseling conversations. Her name is Jocelyn, and she is a fellow podcaster as well. Her podcast actually is all about the topic that we're talking about on today's High School Counseling Conversations episode.
Lauren 0:15
In this episode, we're talking about cultural responsiveness, and we're really gonna narrow in on the why and the how and connect those two together. She's going to tell us what is cultural responsiveness, how we can be culturally informed in our counseling practices and really why it matters with our high school students.
Lauren 0:34
She gives us an encouragement to keep growing ourselves by being introspective as we connect with other people, other students in our school and our peers that we work with. She gives us really practical examples of how we can do this better, but also encourages us and tells us that we're probably doing this already in our job, even if we haven't stopped to think about it yet.
Lauren 0:55
So take this as a flashback to your grad school time, where you did a lot of reflection. I think you're going to find yourself reflecting as you listen to this conversation with Jocelyn. Let me introduce Jocelyn to you, and then we'll roll the intro and I will let you listen in on our conversation. You're going to love it.
Lauren 1:13
Jocelyn Hubbard helps educators spark joy during the learning experience by creating a welcoming, culturally inclusive and equitable classroom environment for all students. She is the founder and managing director of Custom Teaching solutions LLC and host of the Culture Centered Classroom podcast. So you're going to want to head over and hit follow and listen to her podcast as well.
Lauren 1:34
She has 18 plus years of experience in education as an educator, speaker, professional development creator and facilitator. It's easy to see her passion shine through, and you will hear from this conversation that she is an amazing presenter and has a lot to share with her audience.
Lauren 1:50
Driven by a passion to see the diverse people of our world feel welcomed, affirmed and celebrated, she provides training on cultural competency, centering equity and celebrating diversity in education. As a wife and a mother of five, her goals include squeezing in time for exercise, finding moments of joy each day, and parenting each of her children as unique individuals. Let's get into this episode.
Lauren 2:20
You got into this profession to make a difference in your students' lives, but you're spread thin by all the things that keep getting added to your to do list. I can't create more hours in the day, but I can invite you into my counselor clique where you'll finally catch your breath.
Lauren 2:34
Come with me as we unpack creative ideas and effective strategies that'll help you be the counselor who leaves a lifelong impact on your students. I'm Lauren Tingle, your high school counseling hype girl here to help you energize your school counseling program and remind you of how much you love your job.
Lauren 2:52
Well, hey, Jocelyn, thank you for being on High School Counseling Conversations. This is a conversation I have wanted to have for a long time, and I'm really excited to have you on the podcast to talk about culturally informed practices and cultural responsiveness, and you're just our resident expert. So I'm excited to ask you some questions and have you here today.
Jocelynn Hubbard 3:10
I am really excited to be on the podcast, Lauren. One of my love languages is conversating. So this is perfect. I love it.
Lauren 3:10
It's perfect that you have a podcast. I have a podcast. We can just sit and chit chat. We chatted for a while off air before we started and was like, the people need to hear this good stuff, so let's get into it. Okay, well, I'm gonna ask an obvious question to set up our conversation. And like, let's answer a why question right off the bat.
Lauren 3:37
Why is it important for high school counselors to develop cultural competency for their students? I mean, we're talking about high school students and high school counselors who I think ultimately care about this stuff. But like, let's, let's answer the big why question.
Jocelynn Hubbard 3:51
That is one of my favorite questions is, is why, and honestly, it's one of the questions that really puts me more into a space of like awareness around what it actually takes to connect with our students and to help them to thrive, both academically and personally.
Jocelynn Hubbard 4:14
So specifically for high school counselors, you all have this really great opportunity, one that is different than a classroom teacher, because having been a classroom teacher, there is a different type of time frame when we're working with students right.
Jocelynn Hubbard 4:34
A lot of times we are very much thinking about August to June, or September to May, or whatever your 180, 185 days look like. That is the time frame that we have to work with students. But with school counselors, you all a lot of times, get to see students through their entire high school journey. And that was the thing that I mean I loved about my high school counselor, Mr. Byshyll, got to give him a shout out. Love it.
Jocelynn Hubbard 5:02
He got me through okay freshman year all the way through senior year. He saw me grow and change and evolve as a person, and he really helped me to think about who I wanted to be year over year. So that's kind of the long way around that answer to your question, but the reason why it's important for high school counselors to develop cultural competency is because you all have this superpower, right?
Jocelynn Hubbard 5:30
Like you've got this ability to be able to nurture and help students and walk them through the next four years of their life. So when you're developing cultural competency, it's really about you becoming aware of who you are, your beliefs, your biases, your behaviors, all of the things right, all the lived experiences that make up your core values.
Jocelynn Hubbard 5:56
And then setting those next to who you start to see your students as right, like, what are their beliefs? What are their values, what are their biases? And saying, Okay, how can I take what I've got and take what they've got and really help them to see some of the ways that they are are great and some of the ways that they are, maybe they need to grow and evolve and get a little bit more perspective. Does that makes sense?
Lauren 6:21
Yeah and we all need those people to show that mirror back to us, to to give us some self awareness and to push us to grow. But I love what you said about the difference between teachers and counselors. It almost it was encouraging to me to hear like someone who's listening to this, who's like, wow, I haven't really thought about this before.
Lauren 6:39
It's encouraging, because it's not like, too late, because you have students for the long run and you're always getting new students. It's like, well, let's start now. Let's start understanding ourselves now so that we can better understand and help our students now. So that was, like, a little encouraging thing I feel like you just said.
Lauren 6:57
But let's even, like, go simpler when you're talking cultural competency. How are you defining that? And just like give us a baseline to start from.
Jocelynn Hubbard 7:06
There are a couple of scholars in the field of education that I have done a lot of my research around and just kind of looking at their practices. So Dr Gloria Ladson Billings is is one of those people. Dr Geneva Gay, Dr Goldie Muhammad. A lot of these women are really experts in the field of developing cultural competency, and so I always want to reference people that you can go grab some of their their books, read some of their articles to do additional information. So that's number one.
Jocelynn Hubbard 7:39
But when I'm defining cultural competency, as I said, it's a it's it's a practice, right? So it's not, it's not an initiative. It's not something that we start and that we and that we should be stopping. It is an ongoing practice of of looking inwardly and saying, again, who am I? Thinking about who I am outwardly to the world, like when I walk into a room, what do people see? What do they think they know about me based on what do they see? And how do I feel about those things? Right?
Jocelynn Hubbard 8:10
And then what are some of the things internally, some of the internal conversations that I have, the narrative that goes on in my head that other people are not aware of, like all of that is developing cultural competency, it's becoming more aware of me.
Jocelynn Hubbard 8:24
It's reflecting on my history, which has created me to who I am to this point. Then it's also thinking about okay, based on those things, who do I want to be going forward? But as Dr Gloria Ladson billings always says, cultural competency is twofold. So it's not just about you getting to know you. It's also about you becoming fluent in another culture.
Jocelynn Hubbard 8:49
So thinking about getting to know who our students are, who our colleagues are, because even if I am identifying in some of the same ways as other people; like I identify as a black woman. I run across another black woman, that doesn't mean that we're the same.
Lauren 9:07
You're made up of so many different things. Yeah.
Jocelynn Hubbard 9:09
Absolutely right. So that is literally what it means to be culturally competent and to be developing cultural competency. It's honestly, intentionally, consistently reflecting on you and learning about yourself and then learning about other people, so that you can use both of those pieces of information to inform the conversations that you have with other people, to inform your counseling practice and to just inform how you go about in everyday life.
Speaker 1 9:38
Yeah. So practically like, what does that look like? Do you think as an educator in the building, at the end of the day, you're like, decompressing on your drive home, thinking about what you said, how you responded when a student said this, and like, what you would do differently? Or is it, I don't know, like, what are you stopping and thinking about that every day? Are you like, okay, it's the beginning of the yeah, I'm setting new goals. This is a goal I want to achieve, and I'm going to stop and reflect, and then I'm going to go read a book, like, what does that look like?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
10:07
Again, another great question. On my Instagram page, I teach custom I am constantly sharing in my stories and on reels about, like, real life examples of developing cultural competency and as well, on my podcas, The Culture Centered Classroom, just talking about what that looks like in real life, because literally, every moment of your day is an opportunity to develop cultural competency, right?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
10:31
I think about a conversation I recently had with my 10 year old daughter. So I have five biological children, and one of my daughters is 10, and she says to me all the time, she's like, Mom, you forget. You forget what it's like to be 10. You forget what it's like to be in fifth grade. And so that's a moment for me to stop right there and be like, Ooh, you do forget, right?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
10:51
I mean, I'm a 40 year old woman, so it's been 30 years since I was 10 years old, right? Since I was in fifth grade, right? And so that's a moment for me to reflect and say, Okay, I hear what you're saying. Let me reflect back for a moment and think about what was it like when I was in fifth grade. Actually, I was bullied my entire fifth grade year. That was pretty rough. How did I How did I navigate that?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
11:15
I came home crying every day. What did my parents say or do? And so then to kind of come from that mind frame and say, All right, talk to me again. Tell me your story again. What is it that you had going on at school? And maybe this time, we don't make an eye expression or a facial expression that makes her feel like I'm trivializing her emotions, you know? So that is one example of very, practically, very like, informally developing cultural competency.
Lauren:
11:43
Like pausing in the moment and you had that shared experience of, like, I can go back to that place, but like, maybe you don't have that with someone, and so you really have to pause and put yourself in their shoes or empathize with what they're telling you. Like, even if it's just a pause, like you said, and not an eye roll. I don't think we're rolling our eyes at students, but, like, maybe internally, you know, you're like, Okay, that is just drama. Move past it. There's so many bigger things.
Lauren:
12:07
Like, when you're talking about the narrative in your head, like, I'm sure when we're counseling students, that if we're honest with ourselves, sometimes there's a narrative in our head that maybe we're not saying out loud, but we need to self examine.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
12:19
Yes, yes.
Lauren:
12:20
Well, so, I mean, I'm just curious, we're talking about high school counselors. Do you think that there is a difference in cultural competency, elementary, middle, high school? Or, I mean, it's kind of you're developing the same traits no matter what level you're at. Because I know some, most of the listeners, are going to be straight up high school. Some are like K through 12. Some are six through 12. Do you think, like, age wise, there are different things that we need to consider?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
12:46
There are always different things to consider with different ages, for sure, but when you are talking about foundations and like, best practices around developing cultural competency, honestly, that doesn't change. And I know that maybe sounds like a one size fits all approach, but in this situation, it kind of is right, and I say that with a lot of hesitancy in my voice, because the ultimate goal of developing cultural competency is to create more equitable learning spaces for students.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
13:23
And equity is not giving everyone the same thing, but even in some of these very similar approaches, there is nuance. So when you're developing cultural competency, it's about strengthening your reflection practice. And so while that may be the same for all counselors across all grade levels, it's different, because the things that you're reflecting on, points and spaces in your life that you're reflecting on are very different.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
13:56
Yes, when I'm talking to an elementary school student, a kindergartner, the things that I'm reflecting on are very different than what I'm reflecting on from a high school senior year of high school. I mean, that is a critical juncture where students are dealing with a lot of anxiety because they are getting ready to go into the adult world, whether they're going to college or into the military or into the workforce, that's a very different transition than going from kindergarten to first grade, right?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
14:26
So there are different things that as a high school counselor, you're going to be reflecting back on, as far as your own experience and even thinking about one of the things that I like to do is, when I'm in different spaces, is asking other people about their experiences in school.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
14:43
Talk to me about what it was like, like, what was your transition like from high school to college or from high school to the military? Because, you know, I'm I want to be able to think about my job, my role as a counselor in many different ways, and a lot of times when you're having conversations, that's when people are their most authentic, right?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
15:02
So if you're sitting down with your cousins, with your friends, and you're just like shooting a breeze with them, then that triggers something for you to say, You know what? I had a kid who came in my in my office the other day who had a very similar experience, talk to me about that, right?
Lauren:
15:16
Well, I love when you just set out about asking questions about other people, because I find myself in, and this is just like the counselor in me, I guess, like, asking questions. I always ask people what they do for work, and I like, want to know what they do. And I think, as a culture, people, just like, don't actually believe that people want to hear the answer to that.
Lauren:
15:34
And I'm always thinking, because I can connect it back to a student, or because we're so involved in academics, college career. I'm like, I've got some sort of connection to that, or I could use your story somewhere to connect with a student. And so I always want to know about people's lived experiences. They're unique. It's like, what makes them, them. And like you said, you get to know somebody a little bit more and know the context that they come from.
Lauren:
15:58
Talking about other adults, do you think that we have any sort of responsibility to be is it our responsibility to, like, help other people along the way, develop their cultural responsiveness? Or is that, I don't know that's that's your responsibility right now, because I know that's what you want to be doing, and that's why you have a podcast. You are enlightening the world on this.
Lauren:
16:22
But like, do we spend all of our time working on ourselves? Do we bring in our department of school counselors and do a training together? Because, like, I recognize this is important, and I want other people too, or like, what's, what's my responsibility for the greater good?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
16:35
One of the things that I always have my clients do at the beginning of the year is to create a strategic plan. So I actually work with teachers, instructional coaches, counselors and school principals like across the country, and the work that we do is in around developing cultural competency.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
16:57
It's around defining and deepening their understanding of equity, so that they can create spaces where students feel free to show up authentically, to be able to ask critical questions in the classroom and outside of the classroom, right? So that they can thrive as learners and so in these different spaces, the more that you are kind of working on yourself, I think that you will naturally feel pull to want to bring other people along, because you see the value in doing this work.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
17:34
So I will say yes, that as you are moving in this space and as you're developing that, you can look for opportunities to formally or informally guide, offer advice, bring trainings to your space. I mean, again, I do this all the time, whether it is in a formal setting, through workshops or whether I'm on the airplane. All the time, I have conversations when I'm sitting next to people about the way that they show up and how they're viewing the world and their perspective.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
18:08
And I never say this is a great space to develop cultural competency, but I'm asking them probing questions so that I can get a little bit more clarity. And then, you know, many times, wow, I hadn't thought about it that way, that's a great way to think about this. Maybe I should ask that person some more questions, right? And they could be in any space.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
18:26
Maybe they are a farmer, maybe they are a banker, maybe they are a lawyer. Whatever their space is, there's there's always this space and this opportunity. So I think that if we want students to truly be able to thrive, then we do all have to see this as a part of our role.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
18:44
And one of the reasons why schools, a lot of times, will bring me in, is because this is a very sensitive topic, and although there is a lot of value in like in house, PD, where counselors teachers will do and lead professional development for their colleagues.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
19:03
Many times when we're talking about things like cultural competency and equity, the school leader doesn't always want to put that onus on a teacher, right, because you are going to be having some really complex conversations, and they want someone who has navigated that space and who understands how to establish norms for engagement when we are talking about very sensitive issues. So it's a yes and no.
Lauren:
19:30
Yeah, that's a great idea for any I mean, counselors are leaders in their school, but I was going to say any leader who is has control over, like bringing someone into their school to talk about this that you know it could you don't know the audience that you're going to be talking to, even if it is your own coworkers, your own peers, and you don't know how people are going to respond to things. And I just feel like it would be helpful to have like, a neutral person who's coming in, who's done all this research, like, Okay, if they put me up in front I'm going to say, well, I'm going to try and learn as much as I can.
Lauren:
20:00
I'm going to share with you what I know, but like the person who can come from, the expert from the outside, I think that's a safe way to do it, because, like you said, it's going to be it's going to feel sensitive. It can feel as a counselor, I'm, like, always asking questions. I'm ready to answer people's questions. But adults are not always like that. I mean, kids aren't, obviously either, but I know people who are very closed off, who would just not want to offer any personal information about their lived experiences, which makes it hard to connect with people.
Lauren:
20:28
But you know, so I think having having your expertise come in and give us some things to think about is helpful. And I feel really excited that we get you on here to to kind of pick your brain about this.
Lauren:
20:42
I wanted to let you know about my free, editable starter scholarship spreadsheet to keep your high school students organized and motivated while pursuing financial aid for college. There's an entire tab dedicated to the undocumented student resources as well as schools that meet 100% need for students.
Lauren:
20:57
Students and counselors can stay organized with this spreadsheet and upcoming scholarship deadlines with the month by month tabs. If you already own this, head back and redownload it, because it's been updated for this school year. Download your copy for free today by going to counselorclique.com/scholarship. Now back to the show.
Lauren:
21:19
How does all of this that we're talking about, you mentioned equity, and that's different from equality. Equity so that all students get to experience success like that's a reason why we're doing this right? We want them to experience success academically, socially, high school and beyond in their career, or in college or the military, you mentioned all of those things. I mean, I think that's the why behind this. Is that what what we're getting at, or is there, are there other things that we're going to see the fruits of our culturally responsive practices?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
21:54
That is definitely a huge why, as as to why someone wants to develop cultural competency. And again, as as a school counselor. I mean, I really cannot emphasize how important your role is. I mean, you are really catalyst for some important conversations that that students are going to be able to have in their lifetime. Honestly, like very as I said, I can think back to my high school counselor, Mr. Byshyll.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
22:25
You know, at 40 years old, I still remember him. I still remember the impact that he had on me in my experience going through high school. And I have three younger siblings that went to the same high school, and he was also their counselor. But I know from talking to them that his approach with them was different, even though he knew we were raised by the same two parents, growing up in the very same household, going to the same church, right?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
22:51
Like we were the same in so many ways, but also so very different. And so yes, the goal of developing cultural competency is so that we can create equitable learning spaces and counseling spaces, not equal learning spaces and counseling spaces, because that's not going to give our students what they actually need. And understanding that equity is a partnership.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
22:51
And so when you're developing cultural competency, you start started on that journey of partnership, because you can't learn about someone else's experiences without asking them, right, without sitting down with them, without going into a different type of space. And so you begin this partnership type of activity. And so when then, when you go into the equity space, you understand that I need to ask my students how they define success.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
23:44
You can't unilaterally decide what success means for them. And again, as a school counselor, you're literally helping to guide them to whatever their point of success is. But if you're coming in and just saying, well, here is success according to X, Y and Z standards, and so this is what we're going to push. Here's your rubric, here's your outline, and then the student is like, pushing, pushing, pushing, to reach this, this success, quote, unquote, they never achieve it because it's not how they define success, or the way that they get there is not the way you know what I mean.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
24:16
So all of that comes back to your question of, why are we doing this? We're doing this so that we can think about our own experience. Was I supported from high school when I was this particular child's age, when I was, you know, 14, 15,16, as a sophomore, as a junior, was I supported in the way that I needed to be supported by my counselor? Because maybe you weren't.
Lauren:
24:40
Right. And when you go through grad school as a counselor, you do a lot of that, reflecting on how you even got here, like, why are you a counselor? And it's probably because of some experience, or even looking back at was a school counselor present in your building? What was that relationship like?
Lauren:
24:55
And so we did a lot of that in grad school, which is why I think this conversation is important. Because maybe it's been a second like, you have these practices that you you have done before as a counselor when you were going through your training, but like, Have you stopped and realized, like, you probably are doing a lot of them right now, because, like you said, I don't think anyone listening to this is going to be like, Oh no, I have this set plan, and all of my students follow it.
Lauren:
25:18
Like, we know four year college is not for everyone, like we're we are the biggest advocates of those different pathways for students. And so I hope that people are hearing this as an encouragement, that they are probably doing a lot of this reflecting for themselves and for their students, but to continue doing it, to continue asking those questions, and to realize that what they're doing is developing a counseling skill.
Lauren:
25:42
Like everything that you're saying. Jocelyn, I'm like, You should be a counselor. I don't know if you have a background in this, but like, your research and your question asking, like really lends itself. Like people would feel comfortable talking to you and sharing what they're thinking about and what they're going through.
Lauren:
25:58
Something that you said before sitting down for the year and coming up with a plan, like really bringing all the people in, whether it's leadership above you or peers or your own counseling team. I think that's so important, because one, you don't just like stumble into reaching a goal. You don't just stumble into becoming more culturally responsive, like you have to make a decision that you want to do this. And so what does that mean? Is it, PD, is it a training? Is it a podcast that you're going to listen to and discuss together? Is it a a book club that you're going to do?
Lauren:
26:29
I mean, there are some really practical ways probably to do to do this and develop this with your peers, but I love what you said about just having a plan and maybe a goal for the year, and maybe it's professional development in some sort of other thing, like, you need to learn how the FAFSA is working this year.
Lauren:
26:45
But maybe it's, it feels like a little not as measurable, maybe. But hey, now we have these skills and like it, the whole thing is a reflection based on, like, where we were, maybe what we rate ourselves at the beginning of the year, and each quarter we look at how we've grown. So I think that could be a cool thing for people to do with their department, because most people work with other counselors, or at least in the district, with other counselors.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
27:08
Yes, and I agree that maybe some of the indicators of success are not going to be a data point that you can measure with some fancy test. But you know, internally, when you're starting to make some shifts. So like you said, I mean, thinking about professional development, it has to be an outside of the box thing. It's not just, Oh, we're bringing a speaker in. I mean, yes, I would love for you to bring me to your space, and for for you to have me lead workshops and do coaching that is beautiful, but...
Lauren:
27:42
But it doesn't serve anyone if you haven't done the homework outside of that, or the reflection outside of that.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
27:48
Well, yes and no, right? So what, what I'm thinking is that lot of times there are these budgetary issues that that happen, and so encouraging people to think about the ways that they are already developing cultural competence, right the way that they're already showing up and just saying, Hey, okay, you're already doing this thing. Just like, take a second and reflect on that after you've done it, or reflect on that conversation that you just had.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
28:12
Or instead of going to this restaurant that you go to every single Friday, maybe go to the same restaurant on a different side of town. So, like, you're getting the same food, but you're going to a different side of town. Or maybe you turn your radio station on to, you know, a different radio station, and you just listen to a different type of music.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
28:34
Or you, you know, I mean, like going into different spaces, that's professional development as well. So there are things that we can kind of do for free, right? It's like there, there are these different levels of professional development. So yes, thinking about book clubs and thinking about non traditional book clubs.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
28:51
So many times we say, oh, there is this best practices in counseling. We should get that book and we should do a book study around it. That could be great. Or you all could read a novel. You could read a work of fiction and talk about your lens on that. Say, Oh, how did these students engage in this book? And if I were their counselor, what would I say or do?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
29:16
Or what are some, some, some tidbits that I heard from this student's conversation in the book that maybe I wouldn't have gotten you know, you see what I'm saying. So like, there are different ways to think about professionally developing yourself as a counselor, as an educator, that are just as beneficial as bringing someone informally. And yes, bringing someone informally is very necessary, I believe, to keep the work going and to also kind of provide more of a formal audit so that you can say, Hey, these are some of the things. These are some of the the indicators of success and growth. When we're thinking about is our school moving to a more equitable space.
Lauren:
29:57
Well, that's awesome that you probably can look at every situation and be like, This is how I can grow. You know, in this area, when I'm reading on my Kindle at night, my fiction book just to decompress from the day, it's like, once your brain goes to that you are constantly putting yourself in in that person's situation and thinking about how you would respond, or if you were their counselor, how you would respond.
Lauren:
30:22
And so I don't want to discount the work that people are doing, just encourage the reflection as part of it, because that's how you go deeper, that's how you grow, by not just living in that, but stopping and pausing and like taking a step and looking at yourself and how you respond and how students do. So there is so much opportunity for growth.
Lauren:
30:43
I don't think we ever become...We never reach the finish line in this, in this work, which is hard for those people who are high achievers, I'm sure, to hear like that, you're never going to actually arrive, but we can keep, keep working towards it.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
30:59
Yes, there is no stopping place. But I don't know, like, I like to see that as encouragement, because that means that we're constantly growing and getting better. Because if there was, like, this final place, then, okay, then, well, now what? Right? So I've, I've come to this place, and then what's next, you know, I mean, and in there again, there are milestones along the way. I mean, I think about the way that I taught my students in year one, that's
Lauren:
31:31
what I was gonna say. We can all look back and say, I said what? I remember that I would have not said that, or I can't believe that's how I handled that situation. Or, like, look how far I've grown. So yeah, even in your own work, in the school, you can look back and say, No, I have grown a lot,
Jocelynn Hubbard:
31:48
Indeed. So I definitely do hope that you know every counselor that is listening to our conversation right now is seeing this as encouragement. Again, I love talking to counselors. Oh, and you said I should be a counselor. My sister is actually a school counselor. She's a middle school counselor. I talked to her a lot about this, and actually she and I talked on my podcast a couple of times.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
32:10
But one of the things that my that my clients say all the time is that they feel like our coaching sessions are like therapy. They're like, you know, maybe I missed everything else that I was supposed to do this week, Jocelyn, but I came to our coaching session because I knew that I was going to, like, get something from this, not just for myself as a counselor, as a principal, whatever the space that they're in, but just also personally, because...
Jocelynn Hubbard:
32:37
Because everything is so interconnected, we talk about a lot of the things that are going on in their personal life that are impacting how they're showing up today. So just kind of one more, like little example myself, a lot of the a lot of my equity lens refinement this year has been heavily focused on the way that my life has changed. So I have been dealing with some health concerns over the course of this year, and that has significantly impacted the way that I think about health in this country, the way that parents who are sick themselves are trying to navigate school for their children, but maybe they just really don't have enough energy.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
33:21
They're really just too sick, and even if they do, share it with teachers, counselors, principals, how are those people partnering with them to help support the student in that classroom? Right? So that's been a lot of my equity refinement this year is coming from a huge shift in my own lived experiences, in the way that I show up in this world. So again, it's this is a space where every time you reflect on you and you get better, your students are going to get better, right? The way that you support them and their caregivers. It's going to get better 100% every single time.
Lauren:
34:02
Yeah, and it takes our advocacy to the next level. Like, I think of becoming a mom, and I'm like that, I mean, probably the most major transition I ever had in my life, and how much it rocked me, and how much I was like, Wow. I didn't realize, like, when someone becomes a mom, like, how hard this is, or how hard that is.
Lauren:
34:21
But in the lens of working with high schoolers, I think of our teen parents, and I think of how hard it is for me, and I have a lot of support around me, and I know the people to ask questions of. I know what to ask at the doctor's office. And I think of these 15, 16, 17, year olds who don't have that and automatically I'm like, Okay, how can I advocate for them? How can I help them, or make sure they're having the right conversations with their social worker, or I'm equipping them to ask the right questions when they go to the doctor.
Lauren:
34:51
Like, it helps me be a better counselor because of an experience that I've had, but I'm having to reflect and say, Okay, well, this. Is what it looks like for me. It looks very different for them. And just pausing and saying, like, how is that different? Or asking them, I mean, maybe they do have the support, and it's just hard for both of us, but if they don't, it's even harder, I would imagine. But I have to ask those questions and but from my lived experience, I'm not saying, like, you have to be a mom to be a good school counselor.
Lauren:
35:18
I was not a mom for most of the time I was a school counselor, but it gives you some different perspective, for sure. Well, Jocelyn, this was an awesome conversation. I'm going to include those authors that you mentioned, and you can send me any other resources that you feel like would be helpful just reading or anything like that that we can include for the listeners.
Lauren:
35:39
I'm also you mentioned your Instagram, which is going to be a wealth of information for people just to think about things and reflect. And I know you give us some some concrete examples over there on Instagram, and we'll link to your podcast as well. So I love having podcasters on here, because if they're listening here, they probably love podcasts anyway, they're going to love listening to yours, and that's how I found you, through your podcast. So thank you for being here. Is there anything else that we didn't talk about that you just, you're like, we need to add this in before we go?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
36:08
Well I do want to say that you mentioned, you know, a few minutes ago that this is an ongoing journey. And because I also, you know, really advocate for people to see this as an ongoing journey, I created a resource, a free resource that is called The Roadmap. And so your your counselors that are listening can grab that resource by going to custom teachingsolutions.com/the roadmap.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
36:36
And in that resource, I have a physical, like visual representation, kind of what this roadmap looks like of developing cultural competency and deepening your understanding of equity, all of that. And then I provide some some practical tools and resources, some book recommendations, as well as some guiding questions, some anchor questions that you can ask yourself, as far as for reflection, but that you can also share with your students to really start to think about who they are today and who they hope to become in the future.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
37:13
And then again, of course, the podcast. But I think that that's probably one of the resources that I've heard from other people is most helpful as they're kind of starting their journey and they've heard all this information, it gets a little bit overwhelming. But if you go to that resource, it's very concrete, and you have some visuals that can guide you through thinking through this some more.
Lauren:
37:35
Jocelynn, I'm so excited about. That that sounds like the perfect next step. So if you are listening right now, you need to stop what you're doing as soon as this episode finishes, go download the roadmap, because that's going to inform your next steps and give you some action to take from this, to reflect for yourself and to have some additional resources.
Lauren:
37:53
You'll get it in your inbox, and you'll have it there ready to read when, when you're ready to take action, which I hope, is immediately. Thanks for sharing that. Thanks for being on the podcast this week, Jocelyn!
Jocelynn Hubbard:
38:03
Thank you.
Lauren:
38:05
Now, I know you heard me say this, but you're going to need to stop what you're doing right now. Go to the show notes, which you can find in your podcast player, or by going to counselorclique.com/episode148, and you're going to go download that free roadmap resource that Jocelyn has for you. This is going to give you your next steps for growth and how to connect these big ideas into practice. You can also find her and connect with her in the show notes as well. Learn more about Jocelyn and the resources that she has to offer. I'll see you next week.
Lauren:
38:37
Thanks for listening to today's episode of high school counseling conversations. All the links I talked about today can be found in the show notes and also at counselorclique.com/podcast. Be sure to hit follow wherever you listen to your podcast so that you never miss a new episode. Connect with me over on Instagram. Feel free to send me a DM at @counselorclique. That's C, l, I, Q, U, E, I'll see you next week.
I'm so excited to introduce you to this week's guest on high school counseling conversations. Her name is Jocelyn, and she is a fellow podcaster as well. Her podcast actually is all about the topic that we're talking about on today's High School Counseling Conversations episode.
Lauren 0:15
In this episode, we're talking about cultural responsiveness, and we're really gonna narrow in on the why and the how and connect those two together. She's going to tell us what is cultural responsiveness, how we can be culturally informed in our counseling practices and really why it matters with our high school students.
Lauren 0:34
She gives us an encouragement to keep growing ourselves by being introspective as we connect with other people, other students in our school and our peers that we work with. She gives us really practical examples of how we can do this better, but also encourages us and tells us that we're probably doing this already in our job, even if we haven't stopped to think about it yet.
Lauren 0:55
So take this as a flashback to your grad school time, where you did a lot of reflection. I think you're going to find yourself reflecting as you listen to this conversation with Jocelyn. Let me introduce Jocelyn to you, and then we'll roll the intro and I will let you listen in on our conversation. You're going to love it.
Lauren 1:13
Jocelyn Hubbard helps educators spark joy during the learning experience by creating a welcoming, culturally inclusive and equitable classroom environment for all students. She is the founder and managing director of Custom Teaching solutions LLC and host of the Culture Centered Classroom podcast. So you're going to want to head over and hit follow and listen to her podcast as well.
Lauren 1:34
She has 18 plus years of experience in education as an educator, speaker, professional development creator and facilitator. It's easy to see her passion shine through, and you will hear from this conversation that she is an amazing presenter and has a lot to share with her audience.
Lauren 1:50
Driven by a passion to see the diverse people of our world feel welcomed, affirmed and celebrated, she provides training on cultural competency, centering equity and celebrating diversity in education. As a wife and a mother of five, her goals include squeezing in time for exercise, finding moments of joy each day, and parenting each of her children as unique individuals. Let's get into this episode.
Lauren 2:20
You got into this profession to make a difference in your students' lives, but you're spread thin by all the things that keep getting added to your to do list. I can't create more hours in the day, but I can invite you into my counselor clique where you'll finally catch your breath.
Lauren 2:34
Come with me as we unpack creative ideas and effective strategies that'll help you be the counselor who leaves a lifelong impact on your students. I'm Lauren Tingle, your high school counseling hype girl here to help you energize your school counseling program and remind you of how much you love your job.
Lauren 2:52
Well, hey, Jocelyn, thank you for being on High School Counseling Conversations. This is a conversation I have wanted to have for a long time, and I'm really excited to have you on the podcast to talk about culturally informed practices and cultural responsiveness, and you're just our resident expert. So I'm excited to ask you some questions and have you here today.
Jocelynn Hubbard 3:10
I am really excited to be on the podcast, Lauren. One of my love languages is conversating. So this is perfect. I love it.
Lauren 3:10
It's perfect that you have a podcast. I have a podcast. We can just sit and chit chat. We chatted for a while off air before we started and was like, the people need to hear this good stuff, so let's get into it. Okay, well, I'm gonna ask an obvious question to set up our conversation. And like, let's answer a why question right off the bat.
Lauren 3:37
Why is it important for high school counselors to develop cultural competency for their students? I mean, we're talking about high school students and high school counselors who I think ultimately care about this stuff. But like, let's, let's answer the big why question.
Jocelynn Hubbard 3:51
That is one of my favorite questions is, is why, and honestly, it's one of the questions that really puts me more into a space of like awareness around what it actually takes to connect with our students and to help them to thrive, both academically and personally.
Jocelynn Hubbard 4:14
So specifically for high school counselors, you all have this really great opportunity, one that is different than a classroom teacher, because having been a classroom teacher, there is a different type of time frame when we're working with students right.
Jocelynn Hubbard 4:34
A lot of times we are very much thinking about August to June, or September to May, or whatever your 180, 185 days look like. That is the time frame that we have to work with students. But with school counselors, you all a lot of times, get to see students through their entire high school journey. And that was the thing that I mean I loved about my high school counselor, Mr. Byshyll, got to give him a shout out. Love it.
Jocelynn Hubbard 5:02
He got me through okay freshman year all the way through senior year. He saw me grow and change and evolve as a person, and he really helped me to think about who I wanted to be year over year. So that's kind of the long way around that answer to your question, but the reason why it's important for high school counselors to develop cultural competency is because you all have this superpower, right?
Jocelynn Hubbard 5:30
Like you've got this ability to be able to nurture and help students and walk them through the next four years of their life. So when you're developing cultural competency, it's really about you becoming aware of who you are, your beliefs, your biases, your behaviors, all of the things right, all the lived experiences that make up your core values.
Jocelynn Hubbard 5:56
And then setting those next to who you start to see your students as right, like, what are their beliefs? What are their values, what are their biases? And saying, Okay, how can I take what I've got and take what they've got and really help them to see some of the ways that they are are great and some of the ways that they are, maybe they need to grow and evolve and get a little bit more perspective. Does that makes sense?
Lauren 6:21
Yeah and we all need those people to show that mirror back to us, to to give us some self awareness and to push us to grow. But I love what you said about the difference between teachers and counselors. It almost it was encouraging to me to hear like someone who's listening to this, who's like, wow, I haven't really thought about this before.
Lauren 6:39
It's encouraging, because it's not like, too late, because you have students for the long run and you're always getting new students. It's like, well, let's start now. Let's start understanding ourselves now so that we can better understand and help our students now. So that was, like, a little encouraging thing I feel like you just said.
Lauren 6:57
But let's even, like, go simpler when you're talking cultural competency. How are you defining that? And just like give us a baseline to start from.
Jocelynn Hubbard 7:06
There are a couple of scholars in the field of education that I have done a lot of my research around and just kind of looking at their practices. So Dr Gloria Ladson Billings is is one of those people. Dr Geneva Gay, Dr Goldie Muhammad. A lot of these women are really experts in the field of developing cultural competency, and so I always want to reference people that you can go grab some of their their books, read some of their articles to do additional information. So that's number one.
Jocelynn Hubbard 7:39
But when I'm defining cultural competency, as I said, it's a it's it's a practice, right? So it's not, it's not an initiative. It's not something that we start and that we and that we should be stopping. It is an ongoing practice of of looking inwardly and saying, again, who am I? Thinking about who I am outwardly to the world, like when I walk into a room, what do people see? What do they think they know about me based on what do they see? And how do I feel about those things? Right?
Jocelynn Hubbard 8:10
And then what are some of the things internally, some of the internal conversations that I have, the narrative that goes on in my head that other people are not aware of, like all of that is developing cultural competency, it's becoming more aware of me.
Jocelynn Hubbard 8:24
It's reflecting on my history, which has created me to who I am to this point. Then it's also thinking about okay, based on those things, who do I want to be going forward? But as Dr Gloria Ladson billings always says, cultural competency is twofold. So it's not just about you getting to know you. It's also about you becoming fluent in another culture.
Jocelynn Hubbard 8:49
So thinking about getting to know who our students are, who our colleagues are, because even if I am identifying in some of the same ways as other people; like I identify as a black woman. I run across another black woman, that doesn't mean that we're the same.
Lauren 9:07
You're made up of so many different things. Yeah.
Jocelynn Hubbard 9:09
Absolutely right. So that is literally what it means to be culturally competent and to be developing cultural competency. It's honestly, intentionally, consistently reflecting on you and learning about yourself and then learning about other people, so that you can use both of those pieces of information to inform the conversations that you have with other people, to inform your counseling practice and to just inform how you go about in everyday life.
Speaker 1 9:38
Yeah. So practically like, what does that look like? Do you think as an educator in the building, at the end of the day, you're like, decompressing on your drive home, thinking about what you said, how you responded when a student said this, and like, what you would do differently? Or is it, I don't know, like, what are you stopping and thinking about that every day? Are you like, okay, it's the beginning of the yeah, I'm setting new goals. This is a goal I want to achieve, and I'm going to stop and reflect, and then I'm going to go read a book, like, what does that look like?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
10:07
Again, another great question. On my Instagram page, I teach custom I am constantly sharing in my stories and on reels about, like, real life examples of developing cultural competency and as well, on my podcas, The Culture Centered Classroom, just talking about what that looks like in real life, because literally, every moment of your day is an opportunity to develop cultural competency, right?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
10:31
I think about a conversation I recently had with my 10 year old daughter. So I have five biological children, and one of my daughters is 10, and she says to me all the time, she's like, Mom, you forget. You forget what it's like to be 10. You forget what it's like to be in fifth grade. And so that's a moment for me to stop right there and be like, Ooh, you do forget, right?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
10:51
I mean, I'm a 40 year old woman, so it's been 30 years since I was 10 years old, right? Since I was in fifth grade, right? And so that's a moment for me to reflect and say, Okay, I hear what you're saying. Let me reflect back for a moment and think about what was it like when I was in fifth grade. Actually, I was bullied my entire fifth grade year. That was pretty rough. How did I How did I navigate that?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
11:15
I came home crying every day. What did my parents say or do? And so then to kind of come from that mind frame and say, All right, talk to me again. Tell me your story again. What is it that you had going on at school? And maybe this time, we don't make an eye expression or a facial expression that makes her feel like I'm trivializing her emotions, you know? So that is one example of very, practically, very like, informally developing cultural competency.
Lauren:
11:43
Like pausing in the moment and you had that shared experience of, like, I can go back to that place, but like, maybe you don't have that with someone, and so you really have to pause and put yourself in their shoes or empathize with what they're telling you. Like, even if it's just a pause, like you said, and not an eye roll. I don't think we're rolling our eyes at students, but, like, maybe internally, you know, you're like, Okay, that is just drama. Move past it. There's so many bigger things.
Lauren:
12:07
Like, when you're talking about the narrative in your head, like, I'm sure when we're counseling students, that if we're honest with ourselves, sometimes there's a narrative in our head that maybe we're not saying out loud, but we need to self examine.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
12:19
Yes, yes.
Lauren:
12:20
Well, so, I mean, I'm just curious, we're talking about high school counselors. Do you think that there is a difference in cultural competency, elementary, middle, high school? Or, I mean, it's kind of you're developing the same traits no matter what level you're at. Because I know some, most of the listeners, are going to be straight up high school. Some are like K through 12. Some are six through 12. Do you think, like, age wise, there are different things that we need to consider?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
12:46
There are always different things to consider with different ages, for sure, but when you are talking about foundations and like, best practices around developing cultural competency, honestly, that doesn't change. And I know that maybe sounds like a one size fits all approach, but in this situation, it kind of is right, and I say that with a lot of hesitancy in my voice, because the ultimate goal of developing cultural competency is to create more equitable learning spaces for students.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
13:23
And equity is not giving everyone the same thing, but even in some of these very similar approaches, there is nuance. So when you're developing cultural competency, it's about strengthening your reflection practice. And so while that may be the same for all counselors across all grade levels, it's different, because the things that you're reflecting on, points and spaces in your life that you're reflecting on are very different.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
13:56
Yes, when I'm talking to an elementary school student, a kindergartner, the things that I'm reflecting on are very different than what I'm reflecting on from a high school senior year of high school. I mean, that is a critical juncture where students are dealing with a lot of anxiety because they are getting ready to go into the adult world, whether they're going to college or into the military or into the workforce, that's a very different transition than going from kindergarten to first grade, right?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
14:26
So there are different things that as a high school counselor, you're going to be reflecting back on, as far as your own experience and even thinking about one of the things that I like to do is, when I'm in different spaces, is asking other people about their experiences in school.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
14:43
Talk to me about what it was like, like, what was your transition like from high school to college or from high school to the military? Because, you know, I'm I want to be able to think about my job, my role as a counselor in many different ways, and a lot of times when you're having conversations, that's when people are their most authentic, right?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
15:02
So if you're sitting down with your cousins, with your friends, and you're just like shooting a breeze with them, then that triggers something for you to say, You know what? I had a kid who came in my in my office the other day who had a very similar experience, talk to me about that, right?
Lauren:
15:16
Well, I love when you just set out about asking questions about other people, because I find myself in, and this is just like the counselor in me, I guess, like, asking questions. I always ask people what they do for work, and I like, want to know what they do. And I think, as a culture, people, just like, don't actually believe that people want to hear the answer to that.
Lauren:
15:34
And I'm always thinking, because I can connect it back to a student, or because we're so involved in academics, college career. I'm like, I've got some sort of connection to that, or I could use your story somewhere to connect with a student. And so I always want to know about people's lived experiences. They're unique. It's like, what makes them, them. And like you said, you get to know somebody a little bit more and know the context that they come from.
Lauren:
15:58
Talking about other adults, do you think that we have any sort of responsibility to be is it our responsibility to, like, help other people along the way, develop their cultural responsiveness? Or is that, I don't know that's that's your responsibility right now, because I know that's what you want to be doing, and that's why you have a podcast. You are enlightening the world on this.
Lauren:
16:22
But like, do we spend all of our time working on ourselves? Do we bring in our department of school counselors and do a training together? Because, like, I recognize this is important, and I want other people too, or like, what's, what's my responsibility for the greater good?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
16:35
One of the things that I always have my clients do at the beginning of the year is to create a strategic plan. So I actually work with teachers, instructional coaches, counselors and school principals like across the country, and the work that we do is in around developing cultural competency.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
16:57
It's around defining and deepening their understanding of equity, so that they can create spaces where students feel free to show up authentically, to be able to ask critical questions in the classroom and outside of the classroom, right? So that they can thrive as learners and so in these different spaces, the more that you are kind of working on yourself, I think that you will naturally feel pull to want to bring other people along, because you see the value in doing this work.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
17:34
So I will say yes, that as you are moving in this space and as you're developing that, you can look for opportunities to formally or informally guide, offer advice, bring trainings to your space. I mean, again, I do this all the time, whether it is in a formal setting, through workshops or whether I'm on the airplane. All the time, I have conversations when I'm sitting next to people about the way that they show up and how they're viewing the world and their perspective.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
18:08
And I never say this is a great space to develop cultural competency, but I'm asking them probing questions so that I can get a little bit more clarity. And then, you know, many times, wow, I hadn't thought about it that way, that's a great way to think about this. Maybe I should ask that person some more questions, right? And they could be in any space.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
18:26
Maybe they are a farmer, maybe they are a banker, maybe they are a lawyer. Whatever their space is, there's there's always this space and this opportunity. So I think that if we want students to truly be able to thrive, then we do all have to see this as a part of our role.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
18:44
And one of the reasons why schools, a lot of times, will bring me in, is because this is a very sensitive topic, and although there is a lot of value in like in house, PD, where counselors teachers will do and lead professional development for their colleagues.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
19:03
Many times when we're talking about things like cultural competency and equity, the school leader doesn't always want to put that onus on a teacher, right, because you are going to be having some really complex conversations, and they want someone who has navigated that space and who understands how to establish norms for engagement when we are talking about very sensitive issues. So it's a yes and no.
Lauren:
19:30
Yeah, that's a great idea for any I mean, counselors are leaders in their school, but I was going to say any leader who is has control over, like bringing someone into their school to talk about this that you know it could you don't know the audience that you're going to be talking to, even if it is your own coworkers, your own peers, and you don't know how people are going to respond to things. And I just feel like it would be helpful to have like, a neutral person who's coming in, who's done all this research, like, Okay, if they put me up in front I'm going to say, well, I'm going to try and learn as much as I can.
Lauren:
20:00
I'm going to share with you what I know, but like the person who can come from, the expert from the outside, I think that's a safe way to do it, because, like you said, it's going to be it's going to feel sensitive. It can feel as a counselor, I'm, like, always asking questions. I'm ready to answer people's questions. But adults are not always like that. I mean, kids aren't, obviously either, but I know people who are very closed off, who would just not want to offer any personal information about their lived experiences, which makes it hard to connect with people.
Lauren:
20:28
But you know, so I think having having your expertise come in and give us some things to think about is helpful. And I feel really excited that we get you on here to to kind of pick your brain about this.
Lauren:
20:42
I wanted to let you know about my free, editable starter scholarship spreadsheet to keep your high school students organized and motivated while pursuing financial aid for college. There's an entire tab dedicated to the undocumented student resources as well as schools that meet 100% need for students.
Lauren:
20:57
Students and counselors can stay organized with this spreadsheet and upcoming scholarship deadlines with the month by month tabs. If you already own this, head back and redownload it, because it's been updated for this school year. Download your copy for free today by going to counselorclique.com/scholarship. Now back to the show.
Lauren:
21:19
How does all of this that we're talking about, you mentioned equity, and that's different from equality. Equity so that all students get to experience success like that's a reason why we're doing this right? We want them to experience success academically, socially, high school and beyond in their career, or in college or the military, you mentioned all of those things. I mean, I think that's the why behind this. Is that what what we're getting at, or is there, are there other things that we're going to see the fruits of our culturally responsive practices?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
21:54
That is definitely a huge why, as as to why someone wants to develop cultural competency. And again, as as a school counselor. I mean, I really cannot emphasize how important your role is. I mean, you are really catalyst for some important conversations that that students are going to be able to have in their lifetime. Honestly, like very as I said, I can think back to my high school counselor, Mr. Byshyll.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
22:25
You know, at 40 years old, I still remember him. I still remember the impact that he had on me in my experience going through high school. And I have three younger siblings that went to the same high school, and he was also their counselor. But I know from talking to them that his approach with them was different, even though he knew we were raised by the same two parents, growing up in the very same household, going to the same church, right?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
22:51
Like we were the same in so many ways, but also so very different. And so yes, the goal of developing cultural competency is so that we can create equitable learning spaces and counseling spaces, not equal learning spaces and counseling spaces, because that's not going to give our students what they actually need. And understanding that equity is a partnership.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
22:51
And so when you're developing cultural competency, you start started on that journey of partnership, because you can't learn about someone else's experiences without asking them, right, without sitting down with them, without going into a different type of space. And so you begin this partnership type of activity. And so when then, when you go into the equity space, you understand that I need to ask my students how they define success.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
23:44
You can't unilaterally decide what success means for them. And again, as a school counselor, you're literally helping to guide them to whatever their point of success is. But if you're coming in and just saying, well, here is success according to X, Y and Z standards, and so this is what we're going to push. Here's your rubric, here's your outline, and then the student is like, pushing, pushing, pushing, to reach this, this success, quote, unquote, they never achieve it because it's not how they define success, or the way that they get there is not the way you know what I mean.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
24:16
So all of that comes back to your question of, why are we doing this? We're doing this so that we can think about our own experience. Was I supported from high school when I was this particular child's age, when I was, you know, 14, 15,16, as a sophomore, as a junior, was I supported in the way that I needed to be supported by my counselor? Because maybe you weren't.
Lauren:
24:40
Right. And when you go through grad school as a counselor, you do a lot of that, reflecting on how you even got here, like, why are you a counselor? And it's probably because of some experience, or even looking back at was a school counselor present in your building? What was that relationship like?
Lauren:
24:55
And so we did a lot of that in grad school, which is why I think this conversation is important. Because maybe it's been a second like, you have these practices that you you have done before as a counselor when you were going through your training, but like, Have you stopped and realized, like, you probably are doing a lot of them right now, because, like you said, I don't think anyone listening to this is going to be like, Oh no, I have this set plan, and all of my students follow it.
Lauren:
25:18
Like, we know four year college is not for everyone, like we're we are the biggest advocates of those different pathways for students. And so I hope that people are hearing this as an encouragement, that they are probably doing a lot of this reflecting for themselves and for their students, but to continue doing it, to continue asking those questions, and to realize that what they're doing is developing a counseling skill.
Lauren:
25:42
Like everything that you're saying. Jocelyn, I'm like, You should be a counselor. I don't know if you have a background in this, but like, your research and your question asking, like really lends itself. Like people would feel comfortable talking to you and sharing what they're thinking about and what they're going through.
Lauren:
25:58
Something that you said before sitting down for the year and coming up with a plan, like really bringing all the people in, whether it's leadership above you or peers or your own counseling team. I think that's so important, because one, you don't just like stumble into reaching a goal. You don't just stumble into becoming more culturally responsive, like you have to make a decision that you want to do this. And so what does that mean? Is it, PD, is it a training? Is it a podcast that you're going to listen to and discuss together? Is it a a book club that you're going to do?
Lauren:
26:29
I mean, there are some really practical ways probably to do to do this and develop this with your peers, but I love what you said about just having a plan and maybe a goal for the year, and maybe it's professional development in some sort of other thing, like, you need to learn how the FAFSA is working this year.
Lauren:
26:45
But maybe it's, it feels like a little not as measurable, maybe. But hey, now we have these skills and like it, the whole thing is a reflection based on, like, where we were, maybe what we rate ourselves at the beginning of the year, and each quarter we look at how we've grown. So I think that could be a cool thing for people to do with their department, because most people work with other counselors, or at least in the district, with other counselors.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
27:08
Yes, and I agree that maybe some of the indicators of success are not going to be a data point that you can measure with some fancy test. But you know, internally, when you're starting to make some shifts. So like you said, I mean, thinking about professional development, it has to be an outside of the box thing. It's not just, Oh, we're bringing a speaker in. I mean, yes, I would love for you to bring me to your space, and for for you to have me lead workshops and do coaching that is beautiful, but...
Lauren:
27:42
But it doesn't serve anyone if you haven't done the homework outside of that, or the reflection outside of that.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
27:48
Well, yes and no, right? So what, what I'm thinking is that lot of times there are these budgetary issues that that happen, and so encouraging people to think about the ways that they are already developing cultural competence, right the way that they're already showing up and just saying, Hey, okay, you're already doing this thing. Just like, take a second and reflect on that after you've done it, or reflect on that conversation that you just had.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
28:12
Or instead of going to this restaurant that you go to every single Friday, maybe go to the same restaurant on a different side of town. So, like, you're getting the same food, but you're going to a different side of town. Or maybe you turn your radio station on to, you know, a different radio station, and you just listen to a different type of music.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
28:34
Or you, you know, I mean, like going into different spaces, that's professional development as well. So there are things that we can kind of do for free, right? It's like there, there are these different levels of professional development. So yes, thinking about book clubs and thinking about non traditional book clubs.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
28:51
So many times we say, oh, there is this best practices in counseling. We should get that book and we should do a book study around it. That could be great. Or you all could read a novel. You could read a work of fiction and talk about your lens on that. Say, Oh, how did these students engage in this book? And if I were their counselor, what would I say or do?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
29:16
Or what are some, some, some tidbits that I heard from this student's conversation in the book that maybe I wouldn't have gotten you know, you see what I'm saying. So like, there are different ways to think about professionally developing yourself as a counselor, as an educator, that are just as beneficial as bringing someone informally. And yes, bringing someone informally is very necessary, I believe, to keep the work going and to also kind of provide more of a formal audit so that you can say, Hey, these are some of the things. These are some of the the indicators of success and growth. When we're thinking about is our school moving to a more equitable space.
Lauren:
29:57
Well, that's awesome that you probably can look at every situation and be like, This is how I can grow. You know, in this area, when I'm reading on my Kindle at night, my fiction book just to decompress from the day, it's like, once your brain goes to that you are constantly putting yourself in in that person's situation and thinking about how you would respond, or if you were their counselor, how you would respond.
Lauren:
30:22
And so I don't want to discount the work that people are doing, just encourage the reflection as part of it, because that's how you go deeper, that's how you grow, by not just living in that, but stopping and pausing and like taking a step and looking at yourself and how you respond and how students do. So there is so much opportunity for growth.
Lauren:
30:43
I don't think we ever become...We never reach the finish line in this, in this work, which is hard for those people who are high achievers, I'm sure, to hear like that, you're never going to actually arrive, but we can keep, keep working towards it.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
30:59
Yes, there is no stopping place. But I don't know, like, I like to see that as encouragement, because that means that we're constantly growing and getting better. Because if there was, like, this final place, then, okay, then, well, now what? Right? So I've, I've come to this place, and then what's next, you know, I mean, and in there again, there are milestones along the way. I mean, I think about the way that I taught my students in year one, that's
Lauren:
31:31
what I was gonna say. We can all look back and say, I said what? I remember that I would have not said that, or I can't believe that's how I handled that situation. Or, like, look how far I've grown. So yeah, even in your own work, in the school, you can look back and say, No, I have grown a lot,
Jocelynn Hubbard:
31:48
Indeed. So I definitely do hope that you know every counselor that is listening to our conversation right now is seeing this as encouragement. Again, I love talking to counselors. Oh, and you said I should be a counselor. My sister is actually a school counselor. She's a middle school counselor. I talked to her a lot about this, and actually she and I talked on my podcast a couple of times.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
32:10
But one of the things that my that my clients say all the time is that they feel like our coaching sessions are like therapy. They're like, you know, maybe I missed everything else that I was supposed to do this week, Jocelyn, but I came to our coaching session because I knew that I was going to, like, get something from this, not just for myself as a counselor, as a principal, whatever the space that they're in, but just also personally, because...
Jocelynn Hubbard:
32:37
Because everything is so interconnected, we talk about a lot of the things that are going on in their personal life that are impacting how they're showing up today. So just kind of one more, like little example myself, a lot of the a lot of my equity lens refinement this year has been heavily focused on the way that my life has changed. So I have been dealing with some health concerns over the course of this year, and that has significantly impacted the way that I think about health in this country, the way that parents who are sick themselves are trying to navigate school for their children, but maybe they just really don't have enough energy.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
33:21
They're really just too sick, and even if they do, share it with teachers, counselors, principals, how are those people partnering with them to help support the student in that classroom? Right? So that's been a lot of my equity refinement this year is coming from a huge shift in my own lived experiences, in the way that I show up in this world. So again, it's this is a space where every time you reflect on you and you get better, your students are going to get better, right? The way that you support them and their caregivers. It's going to get better 100% every single time.
Lauren:
34:02
Yeah, and it takes our advocacy to the next level. Like, I think of becoming a mom, and I'm like that, I mean, probably the most major transition I ever had in my life, and how much it rocked me, and how much I was like, Wow. I didn't realize, like, when someone becomes a mom, like, how hard this is, or how hard that is.
Lauren:
34:21
But in the lens of working with high schoolers, I think of our teen parents, and I think of how hard it is for me, and I have a lot of support around me, and I know the people to ask questions of. I know what to ask at the doctor's office. And I think of these 15, 16, 17, year olds who don't have that and automatically I'm like, Okay, how can I advocate for them? How can I help them, or make sure they're having the right conversations with their social worker, or I'm equipping them to ask the right questions when they go to the doctor.
Lauren:
34:51
Like, it helps me be a better counselor because of an experience that I've had, but I'm having to reflect and say, Okay, well, this. Is what it looks like for me. It looks very different for them. And just pausing and saying, like, how is that different? Or asking them, I mean, maybe they do have the support, and it's just hard for both of us, but if they don't, it's even harder, I would imagine. But I have to ask those questions and but from my lived experience, I'm not saying, like, you have to be a mom to be a good school counselor.
Lauren:
35:18
I was not a mom for most of the time I was a school counselor, but it gives you some different perspective, for sure. Well, Jocelyn, this was an awesome conversation. I'm going to include those authors that you mentioned, and you can send me any other resources that you feel like would be helpful just reading or anything like that that we can include for the listeners.
Lauren:
35:39
I'm also you mentioned your Instagram, which is going to be a wealth of information for people just to think about things and reflect. And I know you give us some some concrete examples over there on Instagram, and we'll link to your podcast as well. So I love having podcasters on here, because if they're listening here, they probably love podcasts anyway, they're going to love listening to yours, and that's how I found you, through your podcast. So thank you for being here. Is there anything else that we didn't talk about that you just, you're like, we need to add this in before we go?
Jocelynn Hubbard:
36:08
Well I do want to say that you mentioned, you know, a few minutes ago that this is an ongoing journey. And because I also, you know, really advocate for people to see this as an ongoing journey, I created a resource, a free resource that is called The Roadmap. And so your your counselors that are listening can grab that resource by going to custom teachingsolutions.com/the roadmap.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
36:36
And in that resource, I have a physical, like visual representation, kind of what this roadmap looks like of developing cultural competency and deepening your understanding of equity, all of that. And then I provide some some practical tools and resources, some book recommendations, as well as some guiding questions, some anchor questions that you can ask yourself, as far as for reflection, but that you can also share with your students to really start to think about who they are today and who they hope to become in the future.
Jocelynn Hubbard:
37:13
And then again, of course, the podcast. But I think that that's probably one of the resources that I've heard from other people is most helpful as they're kind of starting their journey and they've heard all this information, it gets a little bit overwhelming. But if you go to that resource, it's very concrete, and you have some visuals that can guide you through thinking through this some more.
Lauren:
37:35
Jocelynn, I'm so excited about. That that sounds like the perfect next step. So if you are listening right now, you need to stop what you're doing as soon as this episode finishes, go download the roadmap, because that's going to inform your next steps and give you some action to take from this, to reflect for yourself and to have some additional resources.
Lauren:
37:53
You'll get it in your inbox, and you'll have it there ready to read when, when you're ready to take action, which I hope, is immediately. Thanks for sharing that. Thanks for being on the podcast this week, Jocelyn!
Jocelynn Hubbard:
38:03
Thank you.
Lauren:
38:05
Now, I know you heard me say this, but you're going to need to stop what you're doing right now. Go to the show notes, which you can find in your podcast player, or by going to counselorclique.com/episode148, and you're going to go download that free roadmap resource that Jocelyn has for you. This is going to give you your next steps for growth and how to connect these big ideas into practice. You can also find her and connect with her in the show notes as well. Learn more about Jocelyn and the resources that she has to offer. I'll see you next week.
Lauren:
38:37
Thanks for listening to today's episode of high school counseling conversations. All the links I talked about today can be found in the show notes and also at counselorclique.com/podcast. Be sure to hit follow wherever you listen to your podcast so that you never miss a new episode. Connect with me over on Instagram. Feel free to send me a DM at @counselorclique. That's C, l, I, Q, U, E, I'll see you next week.
