Melissa: Okay, yeah. So I'm really, really excited this week because I have my first guest on the fearlessly curious podcast. And I'm deeply honored to be able to have none other than my mother. Hi, mum. It's really great to have you here.
Mum: Thank you, Melissa. inviting me to be your first guest.
Melissa: Of course, Mum, I mean, I wouldn't be here, if not for you.
Mum: Oh, its blessings on God. I'm blessed.
Melissa: I’ll amplify that Mum, thank you! Thank you so much. And you know, this journey of contemplation through speaking, this sort of audio platform first started for us during lockdown in Malaysia, right? I went to Clubhouse.
Mum: Yeah, it was just out of fun. And I don't know how I got persuaded into actually answering questions in Clubhouse.
Melissa: I think I managed to persuade you to do that. Because Mum, can you share with everybody what your rant is? Vantage is?
Mum: My goodness. Now, I'm almost talking like a dinosaur. Born in the 30s? And it’s now 2022. Can you imagine? The decades I've gone through the different types of upbringing, every generation, every decade, have slightly different values, although basically the core values are the same - home, love our family, respect for elders, respect for each other and basically, to do our best at all times. And to be kind to everybody, all the basic rules. So, the only thing that has changed through the decades, maybe in our days, we don't question too much what our elders tell us we just do, even though we don't agree, we think that our elders know everything, and we just have to follow.
But then when you go to school and have education, and you're taught self-respect, in what you know, you must speak out, otherwise, there won't be any improvement and the other party elders don't know what you want. Don't know what you think. And don't know whether they're on the right path. So we should point it out to them. But of course, it's not an easy thing to do. You need to do it, still showing a lot of respect, if you know what I mean. Because elders in those days don't like to be questioned, Do as I tell you not as I do.
Melissa: Oh, I love that opener Mum, that's giving us a real insight, an insight and actually it was almost like jumping timelines for a Monday, you took us back to what it was like to grow up during the 40s, it would have been the 40s right for you, 40s and 50s as a young adult. So that's timeline jumping. That's like taking us back in a time portal, through your lens of your experience. And I love what you shared there about not questioning our elders, and how that's measured as respect, because this podcast as you know, is called Fearlessly Curious. And when we're curious, we do exactly that, we question. And the thing is, we question not because we are challenging a belief, but because, in a way, we're challenging a belief, but not because we're being defiant. But because we're exploring alternative perspectives,
Mum: I think defiant is a good word. Yep. Not challenging, not trying to be defined, but curious.
Melissa: So the intention behind that is very important. And it's wonderful to have you here because I think it's very important for those of you listening for us to be fearlessly curious with the elders in our family. So if you are fortunate as I am to still have your parents, I no longer have my father around, but I still have my mother, that you spend that time asking questions, getting a sense of what it was like for your mother, your father, your whoever it was that you spent a lot of time with when you were growing up. Your aunts, your uncles, whoever your caregivers were to ask them.
What was it like to be a young person growing up? What was it like to be a teenager? What was it like when you were in your 20s? What was it like when you got married? What was it like when - ask these questions because life was very, very different then. And it gives us, the children, the grandchildren, and maybe even the great grandchildren an opportunity to learn about the progression, the evolution of humanity and it also gives us an opportunity to hold space to provide that loving space for our elders, who, when we were growing up, took care of us, always had time for us.
When we learn about what our elders have lived, it gives us an insight as to what has formed their characters and personalities. And that way we, the current generation can be more compassionate. So that when, for example, was that now I look at you Mom, and knew there's certain things that you didn't understand me for. Now, I understand why you didn't understand me. Because in your time, things were so different. So now I can be more curious, as I learn about you, I can be more curious about myself as to how I can explain a situation to you. I can find a way to describe my point of view to you that is compassionate, to the way that you were brought up. Do you understand? Am I making sense?
Mum: Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Actually, there's so much involved in so many years of us, I really can start on any topic, unless you ask me that specific question, then I can go into it because I really don't know how to begin, or where to begin.
Melissa: I've got a great topic.
Mum: Okay
Melissa: We’re women, right. Mother and daughter conversation right here. And I'm guessing that majority of the listeners are going to be women and for the odd, non female, so binary, non-binary, or men or everybody else on that spectrum, who do not identify as women, this is going to be interesting for you too, because it's going to give you an insight as to how many women have been brought up.
Now when I grew up and I had my first menses. I didn't learn about menses from my mother. I learned about menses at school. And I learned about menses with my friends. But it was a very harrowing time. When I first got my first period. It was shocking. It was frightening. It was scary. It was all these things. And I grew up and I can openly say this to my Mom, because this is exactly it. When we understand that we are brought up at a different time and we have these conversations we learn the premise from which our parents bring us up.
So, I grew up having a little bit of resentment towards my mother. She's sitting right in front of me. I had a bit of resentment because I felt why did she never tell me about my period? It was along the spectrum of trauma, traumatic for me, I literally was bleeding. My body was bleeding. And I had no idea why. And it was very scary. And I didn't feel like I could talk to my mom about it. Because she never mentioned she didn't prepare me for it. So, as I grew up over the years, I had an unconscious resentment for my Mom for that, like I felt she had let me down on that side of parenting because she didn't prepare me for my period for my first menses. Not that long ago actually, Mom. Well, you talked about this to me. We talked about periods, and I actually decided to ask her and I said, you know, Mom, You never told me about my period. Why? I just asked. I was fearlessly curious about that. I didn't hold any judgment. I thought I'm ready to ask her why I'm ready to learn about my mom's point of view. Mom, why don't you share with everybody what you told me?
Mum: Oh, that's a good question. Because I never thought that I needed to tell you or educate you on that subject. Because at the time when you went to school, you already have sex education. So, I thought the school or from your friends or your older sister will tell you this, to me it is still a very taboo subject. We never talked about sex. When I had my period. You can just imagine what I went through. I thought I didn't eat chocolate at night on a bed. How could the bed be all chocolate, full of chocolate? That was the first bleeding. It was a dark, dark, red, almost like chocolate color. I was horrified. And again, so I just had to get on with it. And you know, during my time at least, we got to use sanitary pads, you know, and then my mother gave me sanitary pads.
But I remember, I remember when my mother used to have a period, I was wondering why she would take that special straw paper that the women would use. They will crush it and rub it, rub it and soften it and that is what they use. They did not have sanitary pads. That was what my mother used when she had a period. So, we already graduated and went into sanitary pads to use. So that was why I thought, you know, my time is, I was ignorant, I thought my children are more ahead of me in this line of education. So that's why it was still a little bit of a taboo subject for us, we still don't discuss this such personal things as sex, you know, and the body changes. So that's the reason why, Melissa. I'm sorry.
Melissa: Oh, mum. First of all, I appreciate you saying sorry. But I also know, now I know because I asked you that you would just simply bring me up, the way you were brought up. It was relevant for your time. And actually, I remember how you first said it to me, you said to me, I was respecting your privacy. It is a personal issue, not for me to discuss with you. And that for you to come and talk to me if you needed to. But really, it was very, it was personal hygiene, meaning you didn't even want to pry. And as you said, it was a matter for me to learn at school, because we had sex education around that topic. But aren't that interesting listeners, I really want you to bet, really pay attention to this. Mum and I literally sat at the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to perspective. I feel it's so personal, that I only wanted to hear it from my mum. And my mum felt it was so personal. That really, she wanted to stay out of it unless I was open to inviting her into my world.
Mum: Yes, my goodness, we couldn't be more different. And we all thought we were doing the right thing.
Melissa: And so listeners, be fearlessly curious. Each of us were on our own timeline, we are on our own trajectory of life. Therefore, we build a narrative about the world and a life that is relative to us. But you see, we take it for granted, we just simply assume that our parents because we came from them have the same perspective, but they lived in a different time. Mom, I'd love for you to share a little bit about what family values you were brought up in.
Mum: Hmm. We were brought up to always respect our parents, our now parents or grandparents or aunts, anyone who is older than us in the house in a hierarchy. Our oldest sister, older brother, that's why we don't address gender by name. The younger ones always call the older sisters, Kakak or Katia in Chinese or I don't speak Tamil so Abang or Coco, you know, and also what number they are. So that immediately, you know, oh, she's a third child, we address each other. So we have a lot of respect, and always care for each other. And share whatever we have.
When we eat. We always eat together. What little we have, nice things we always share, and even clothes, nice clothes, which are expensive, meaning my mother would make all our clothes, it will be a hand me down because I have two sisters younger than me. So my good clothes will always last until I grow out of them. And I give it to my second sister below me, and so forth. And it all goes the same for boys you see. So nothing is wasted. We tell him never to waste because money is not easy to come by. And education is most important. That's what our parents can afford to give us. So that's what I think.
Melissa: Okay, thank you, Mum. I'm curious about one other thing. Now, well, not now I hear the word feminism and, and being a feminist and equal rights. And this is all the language is going on. We're seeing the discrepancy between men and women in the workplace and women having careers. So, I'm just curious, in that hierarchy of family, what was the placement of the male gender and the female gender and I'm being specific because back then, it was just binary male or female. Now of course mum and mum are also fascinated by this, you know, we have everything in between too.
Mum: Oh, in my time father is the most important figure. What he sees goes, although the mother has a certain amount of see in the house, if you have an understanding father or husband, otherwise you don't question your husband. He's the one, he says, and he goes, No more questions. And our place is always below our husband's. We don't question him. That's why there were very few divorces in our days. You accept it. The Chinese have a saying that when your husband is in the house, he's yours. When he leaves the house, he's not your husband.
Melissa: Wow.
Mum: Yes. So, he can be someone else's playmate or whatever. But the minute he comes back, he's your husband. So, you don't question his whereabouts? Yes.
Melissa: Wait, we need to pause you there. That is the first time I've heard this. So, in essence, it's almost making infidelity something that is accepted. In an unwritten way.
Mum: Well, yes, yes. You just keep quiet because he still brings home food. He still loves you. He takes you out. He brings a family on holidays, educates the children. He's there for you whenever you want him. Only when he goes out, he just has a little fling here and there. Just accept it. Because he loves you.
Melissa: Wow!
Mum: That doesn't change his love for you. No divorces. Divorce is almost a taboo subject. There's a big stigma for divorcees.
Melissa: Do you feel Mum that maybe that, that practice or that conditioning? Because there's conditioning, you're taught that right? You're taught to live by that rule? Is it a way to take the power away from women? Because if you're saying to me, well, actually, it's the same for women. As long as you own the house, you must fulfill your role as a wife and a mother. But once you leave the house, you too can. But was that the case? Or not the case?
Mum: Oh no, no, no, no, no, you'll be an outcast in the whole society. They blame you. They always blame the woman.
Melissa: Oh, don't they always? Yes.
Mum: Yeah, they always blame the woman. There's no equality at all.
Melissa: And Mom, I have to say. Don't women also blame women?
Mum: Unfortunately, we do. Instead of blaming your husband, I mean, it takes two hands to clap. You cannot always blame the other woman, if your husband is not aware of what is made available to them, and entices them with money or gifts. And those women don't have anything, they have nothing to lose. So, it's not entirely the man's fault. We always blame ourselves. I mean, another woman, you should blame the man as well.
Melissa: I agree with you. Oh this weekend. I think this conversation could go for many, many, many rounds. But let me just bring it back here. And listeners, listen, if you want Mom and I to delve into the conversation of relationship and infidelity in marriage, in another podcast episode, make sure you leave a comment and let me know that's what you want. Because we could definitely do that.
But for today, I want to come back to values. And I want to come back to generational differences. And the reason why is because we are approaching year end, we're approaching the festive season, we're approaching the New Year. And typically, it's a time when families come together. And it's typically a time also that can be very high stress because family members of all generations commune and it can get very grating, because people have different opinions, people have different ways of doing things. And it's a wonderful opportunity for us to really lean into this compassionate way of being curious, remembering that the person sitting opposite you even if it's your sibling, even if it's someone of the same generation as you, are going to see life completely differently, even on the things that you think you agree on. And you may describe as being agreeable to, you still view differently, because we are all different, but what more the elders in your family.
So having boundaries, I believe, is also very important. How do we respectfully tell an elder that you don't agree on a subject? How would you receive that? Mom, if I didn't agree with you about something? What would be the best way for me to communicate with you that I don't agree with?
Mum: Well, I must say I'm more open to it now. Many years ago, I was not open. And I said no, I don't want to hear. I'm not ready to hear what you have to see what you have to say. That's not matter. Just do what I think is right. Don't give me things that's going to annoy me or work me up. I don't want to listen to your reasons. You see, that's how we were brought up. So it took me a long time to try and say I must not do that, I must give them a chance to explain. And I must say in a way Melissa has taken me through this journey. And I have learned quite a bit that we have to listen. And then we will realize why the youth behave the way they do. Just as much as they don't understand us. We don't understand them. You see, but we are not willing to listen. And we always use our age as our weapon. And then the young ones will have to drop back, or the parents will tell them quietly, no more answering grandma. Respect. It’s rude. I think we do much less of that now. I'm quite proud to say.
Melissa: I am extremely proud of you, Mom. I mean, again, going to mention Mom was born in the 30s. I was born in the 70s. That's four decades of difference nearly, right? And even if it's one decade, it's already a different generation.
Mum: Absolutely.
Melissa: And to be mindful of that and this request that no matter your age, the most valuable quality that you can offer yourself is the quality of listening. Because at the end of the day, when we find conflict in a conversation, who’s the person who gets upset is you.
So how do we find peace in a conversation, is by listening and meeting someone where they are. I always said, can I meet you where you are, so I can hear your opinion? And I can say, Okay, I hear your opinion, I actually don't understand it. And it makes sense that I don't understand it because I didn't live during your time. I cannot see things through your eyes. I've tried, I'm going to try. And I'm also willing to accept that no matter how hard I try, maybe I will still never get it. And am I able to just acknowledge that, that is your point of view? And that is how you see the world? And can we still stand by each other?
Mum: You mean, agree to disagree?
Melissa: Not even go that far. I don't even need to disagree with you. I can just acknowledge, that is how you see the world. And maybe if it causes me harm, that says take it really one step further. Because this can cross on many areas, which we won't go in depth when he this can cross on sexual preference, it could cross on career choice, partner choice, religion, politics, parenting, okay, let's just cover some of those areas between adults and parents. I could not agree with you. And I could feel, I could believe that your opinion, right actually harms me. I could believe that. How do we still bridge that is by me, I think my way would be to say, Mum, your opinion, I find is going to harm me. So, I request that you don't share that opinion with me.
Mum: Yeah, I guess that's the best way out. There's no point because you're walking on a railroad track, parallel lines, you can speak until the cows come home, you will never reach a conclusion, which will satisfy both. So, you keep to yourself and we respect each other as much as we can, without much difficulty sometimes, and try not to touch on those topics. So, I mean, what is that? What's the value? What's the point?
Melissa: There's a million other things that we could talk about. So why don't we focus on the things that we share?
Mum: We share and enjoy, you know, we enjoy. And life is so short. We want to enjoy it. I want to enjoy my children, my grandchildren. So, it's no point arguing every time we meet, what's the point? And both go away happy. So, I've learned a lot through the years. Very slowly, but surely.
Melissa: Well, Mum, I wouldn't say very slowly. You've lived many years. And I would say that, the way that you have grown, if I may say so, is what I've witnessed and it's been a privilege for me to witness you have opened and expanded your point of view and your mind, way beyond many people who are half your age.
Mum: Yes. Because in a way, I'm lucky because I have you to teach me. Honestly. I mean, you gave me a lot of headaches. Don't think there was not a bumpy road, big bumps along the road. Very big bumps, big headaches and heartbreaks. Anyway, we won't go into that.
Melissa: There’s the railroad track right Mum That’s a railroad track.
Mum: So I think now, I want to happy track quiet on the fourth gear cruising.
Melissa: Oh, nice. In fact, just today, literally, before recording this episode, Mum and I were in the car coming back from lunch, and we were having a conversation, she was asking my point of view about something. And I said to her, in as much as I understand where you're coming from, I completely disagree. And it was so wonderful. After that I said, you know, Mum, Isn't it lovely that we've reached this point in our lives where we can sit next to each other, disagree, quite passionately on a topic, but not get heated, we can just acknowledge and respect that we have a different point of view. I'm not trying to force my point of view on her, and neither am I trying to change her mind. And she's not going to try to change mind. We respect each other as individuals.
And I think this is the most important part of any parent and child relationship that we have to acknowledge. Maybe harder for the parent to acknowledge that your child is their own person. And even though you bring them up with your values, sometimes it's enforced. But ultimately you are bringing them up with your values, that the values that they carry forward is still going to be an interpretation of your values. It's their value still, and it may be different. They may think it's the same. But everything is interpreted differently.
So, relationships ultimately are about healthy relationships, about meeting each other, meeting each other, focusing on the stuff that brings joy that you can share and acknowledging your differences, acknowledging them, we don't have to accept them. I just need to acknowledge them. Because we are different people. And I want as much as I want my mum to accept me for who I am. That's every child's gripe with most parents right?
I just want you to accept me as who I am, then I first have to accept my mother as who she is. I cannot ask for what I cannot give. What do you think Mom? Let’s wrap up. What are your final thoughts on this? What were your thoughts on for parents and children who cannot find? Who doesn't have this blessing of being able to communicate?
Mum: Oh, that's going to be tough. Normally the parents will not listen. Because I have also spoken to my peers, my friends who tell me they have difficult children and or children who don't care about them. So I told them what I tried to do with my own daughter, but it's, ah, no, no, no, no, my daughter is not like that. You think she knows everything I know. And she doesn't care about me, she only wants my money. When she wants money, she calls me. Other than that, she's either too busy or No, I call you back. And she's always on this phone. When I talk to her, she said, I'm busy Mom, they're always busy. Always 24 hours a day, they're too busy. But when they want something, we are not too busy to listen to them. You see? So, I can understand how my friends feel also, because the children also don't give time to their mother. And they have their own stories. So..
Melissa: I love that you said that they have their own stories, because there is always a reason why. Right? And you were leading up to. Why do you think that is when a child chooses to separate themselves from a parent because normally it's a child that will choose that, not is less common for a parent to be estranged from a child, right?
Mum: I think that children want their freedom. And we can be over domineering. You know, trying to be in a way always telling them what we want them to do or exact time to have dinner or Oh, you wore the wrong dress. And why do you cut your hair like this? You know, they all make comments. Just shoot out of the mouth without thinking that it may hurt the young person's feelings, because we never think about that. You know, as a mother, I thought it's my right. I just tell my child Hey, why did you cut your hair that way? It's horrible. Why are those tattoos my gosh, Over my dead body, things like that. Some children can't take that. So, they'd rather go away to live somewhere else and see you less and say hi, mom, once a month, you know, come over for lunch or something like that. There are always two sides of the coin.
Melissa: So Mum, thank you so much. Just some closing thoughts like well wishes for this festive season coming up? What tip would you give, because you've experienced many family holidays when you can feel when you can sense a little tension coming up during a family gathering. What's one thing that you would advise someone to do in order to prevent a storm from happening?
Mum: If you can't say something nice, don't say anything. Just keep quiet, and just walk away. Which is one of the most difficult things to do. I think this is the best you can do. Yeah, because when you're heated, you say things you don't mean, you walk away, three hours later you come back, you would have forgotten, and you will, because basically they are part of your family, you love them unconditionally. Whether they argue with you or not. I don't know how the children feel. But that's how normally parents are very forgiving.
Melissa: Thank you. Thank you so much Mum for agreeing to be part of this podcast. Honestly, it would not be able to be what it is. This would not happen if you were not being part of this podcast because you were instrumental in my audio journey.
Mum: Really? Well. I'm flattered. Do you think so? Anyway, I can help in any way it is always my pleasure.
Melissa: And I look forward to our festive new year's season, and perhaps a few more episodes with you along this series. So, listeners, you want to hear more from Mum, you want to hear about her perspective and what the possibilities are for our elders to change. Maybe this is something you want to share with your mom who may be resistant just to show her to model to her that anything is possible.
If we're committed to change, we want to change your relationship, we need to change the way we view ourselves within that relationship. It all starts with being fearlessly curious, it all starts with having the intention to learn more about yourself, to learn more about the other party so that when we know better, we can be better.
Don't forget, hit the subscribe button and I'll catch you in the new year. Until the next time, be fearlessly curious.
Mum: Thank you, Melissa. inviting me to be your first guest.
Melissa: Of course, Mum, I mean, I wouldn't be here, if not for you.
Mum: Oh, its blessings on God. I'm blessed.
Melissa: I’ll amplify that Mum, thank you! Thank you so much. And you know, this journey of contemplation through speaking, this sort of audio platform first started for us during lockdown in Malaysia, right? I went to Clubhouse.
Mum: Yeah, it was just out of fun. And I don't know how I got persuaded into actually answering questions in Clubhouse.
Melissa: I think I managed to persuade you to do that. Because Mum, can you share with everybody what your rant is? Vantage is?
Mum: My goodness. Now, I'm almost talking like a dinosaur. Born in the 30s? And it’s now 2022. Can you imagine? The decades I've gone through the different types of upbringing, every generation, every decade, have slightly different values, although basically the core values are the same - home, love our family, respect for elders, respect for each other and basically, to do our best at all times. And to be kind to everybody, all the basic rules. So, the only thing that has changed through the decades, maybe in our days, we don't question too much what our elders tell us we just do, even though we don't agree, we think that our elders know everything, and we just have to follow.
But then when you go to school and have education, and you're taught self-respect, in what you know, you must speak out, otherwise, there won't be any improvement and the other party elders don't know what you want. Don't know what you think. And don't know whether they're on the right path. So we should point it out to them. But of course, it's not an easy thing to do. You need to do it, still showing a lot of respect, if you know what I mean. Because elders in those days don't like to be questioned, Do as I tell you not as I do.
Melissa: Oh, I love that opener Mum, that's giving us a real insight, an insight and actually it was almost like jumping timelines for a Monday, you took us back to what it was like to grow up during the 40s, it would have been the 40s right for you, 40s and 50s as a young adult. So that's timeline jumping. That's like taking us back in a time portal, through your lens of your experience. And I love what you shared there about not questioning our elders, and how that's measured as respect, because this podcast as you know, is called Fearlessly Curious. And when we're curious, we do exactly that, we question. And the thing is, we question not because we are challenging a belief, but because, in a way, we're challenging a belief, but not because we're being defiant. But because we're exploring alternative perspectives,
Mum: I think defiant is a good word. Yep. Not challenging, not trying to be defined, but curious.
Melissa: So the intention behind that is very important. And it's wonderful to have you here because I think it's very important for those of you listening for us to be fearlessly curious with the elders in our family. So if you are fortunate as I am to still have your parents, I no longer have my father around, but I still have my mother, that you spend that time asking questions, getting a sense of what it was like for your mother, your father, your whoever it was that you spent a lot of time with when you were growing up. Your aunts, your uncles, whoever your caregivers were to ask them.
What was it like to be a young person growing up? What was it like to be a teenager? What was it like when you were in your 20s? What was it like when you got married? What was it like when - ask these questions because life was very, very different then. And it gives us, the children, the grandchildren, and maybe even the great grandchildren an opportunity to learn about the progression, the evolution of humanity and it also gives us an opportunity to hold space to provide that loving space for our elders, who, when we were growing up, took care of us, always had time for us.
When we learn about what our elders have lived, it gives us an insight as to what has formed their characters and personalities. And that way we, the current generation can be more compassionate. So that when, for example, was that now I look at you Mom, and knew there's certain things that you didn't understand me for. Now, I understand why you didn't understand me. Because in your time, things were so different. So now I can be more curious, as I learn about you, I can be more curious about myself as to how I can explain a situation to you. I can find a way to describe my point of view to you that is compassionate, to the way that you were brought up. Do you understand? Am I making sense?
Mum: Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Actually, there's so much involved in so many years of us, I really can start on any topic, unless you ask me that specific question, then I can go into it because I really don't know how to begin, or where to begin.
Melissa: I've got a great topic.
Mum: Okay
Melissa: We’re women, right. Mother and daughter conversation right here. And I'm guessing that majority of the listeners are going to be women and for the odd, non female, so binary, non-binary, or men or everybody else on that spectrum, who do not identify as women, this is going to be interesting for you too, because it's going to give you an insight as to how many women have been brought up.
Now when I grew up and I had my first menses. I didn't learn about menses from my mother. I learned about menses at school. And I learned about menses with my friends. But it was a very harrowing time. When I first got my first period. It was shocking. It was frightening. It was scary. It was all these things. And I grew up and I can openly say this to my Mom, because this is exactly it. When we understand that we are brought up at a different time and we have these conversations we learn the premise from which our parents bring us up.
So, I grew up having a little bit of resentment towards my mother. She's sitting right in front of me. I had a bit of resentment because I felt why did she never tell me about my period? It was along the spectrum of trauma, traumatic for me, I literally was bleeding. My body was bleeding. And I had no idea why. And it was very scary. And I didn't feel like I could talk to my mom about it. Because she never mentioned she didn't prepare me for it. So, as I grew up over the years, I had an unconscious resentment for my Mom for that, like I felt she had let me down on that side of parenting because she didn't prepare me for my period for my first menses. Not that long ago actually, Mom. Well, you talked about this to me. We talked about periods, and I actually decided to ask her and I said, you know, Mom, You never told me about my period. Why? I just asked. I was fearlessly curious about that. I didn't hold any judgment. I thought I'm ready to ask her why I'm ready to learn about my mom's point of view. Mom, why don't you share with everybody what you told me?
Mum: Oh, that's a good question. Because I never thought that I needed to tell you or educate you on that subject. Because at the time when you went to school, you already have sex education. So, I thought the school or from your friends or your older sister will tell you this, to me it is still a very taboo subject. We never talked about sex. When I had my period. You can just imagine what I went through. I thought I didn't eat chocolate at night on a bed. How could the bed be all chocolate, full of chocolate? That was the first bleeding. It was a dark, dark, red, almost like chocolate color. I was horrified. And again, so I just had to get on with it. And you know, during my time at least, we got to use sanitary pads, you know, and then my mother gave me sanitary pads.
But I remember, I remember when my mother used to have a period, I was wondering why she would take that special straw paper that the women would use. They will crush it and rub it, rub it and soften it and that is what they use. They did not have sanitary pads. That was what my mother used when she had a period. So, we already graduated and went into sanitary pads to use. So that was why I thought, you know, my time is, I was ignorant, I thought my children are more ahead of me in this line of education. So that's why it was still a little bit of a taboo subject for us, we still don't discuss this such personal things as sex, you know, and the body changes. So that's the reason why, Melissa. I'm sorry.
Melissa: Oh, mum. First of all, I appreciate you saying sorry. But I also know, now I know because I asked you that you would just simply bring me up, the way you were brought up. It was relevant for your time. And actually, I remember how you first said it to me, you said to me, I was respecting your privacy. It is a personal issue, not for me to discuss with you. And that for you to come and talk to me if you needed to. But really, it was very, it was personal hygiene, meaning you didn't even want to pry. And as you said, it was a matter for me to learn at school, because we had sex education around that topic. But aren't that interesting listeners, I really want you to bet, really pay attention to this. Mum and I literally sat at the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to perspective. I feel it's so personal, that I only wanted to hear it from my mum. And my mum felt it was so personal. That really, she wanted to stay out of it unless I was open to inviting her into my world.
Mum: Yes, my goodness, we couldn't be more different. And we all thought we were doing the right thing.
Melissa: And so listeners, be fearlessly curious. Each of us were on our own timeline, we are on our own trajectory of life. Therefore, we build a narrative about the world and a life that is relative to us. But you see, we take it for granted, we just simply assume that our parents because we came from them have the same perspective, but they lived in a different time. Mom, I'd love for you to share a little bit about what family values you were brought up in.
Mum: Hmm. We were brought up to always respect our parents, our now parents or grandparents or aunts, anyone who is older than us in the house in a hierarchy. Our oldest sister, older brother, that's why we don't address gender by name. The younger ones always call the older sisters, Kakak or Katia in Chinese or I don't speak Tamil so Abang or Coco, you know, and also what number they are. So that immediately, you know, oh, she's a third child, we address each other. So we have a lot of respect, and always care for each other. And share whatever we have.
When we eat. We always eat together. What little we have, nice things we always share, and even clothes, nice clothes, which are expensive, meaning my mother would make all our clothes, it will be a hand me down because I have two sisters younger than me. So my good clothes will always last until I grow out of them. And I give it to my second sister below me, and so forth. And it all goes the same for boys you see. So nothing is wasted. We tell him never to waste because money is not easy to come by. And education is most important. That's what our parents can afford to give us. So that's what I think.
Melissa: Okay, thank you, Mum. I'm curious about one other thing. Now, well, not now I hear the word feminism and, and being a feminist and equal rights. And this is all the language is going on. We're seeing the discrepancy between men and women in the workplace and women having careers. So, I'm just curious, in that hierarchy of family, what was the placement of the male gender and the female gender and I'm being specific because back then, it was just binary male or female. Now of course mum and mum are also fascinated by this, you know, we have everything in between too.
Mum: Oh, in my time father is the most important figure. What he sees goes, although the mother has a certain amount of see in the house, if you have an understanding father or husband, otherwise you don't question your husband. He's the one, he says, and he goes, No more questions. And our place is always below our husband's. We don't question him. That's why there were very few divorces in our days. You accept it. The Chinese have a saying that when your husband is in the house, he's yours. When he leaves the house, he's not your husband.
Melissa: Wow.
Mum: Yes. So, he can be someone else's playmate or whatever. But the minute he comes back, he's your husband. So, you don't question his whereabouts? Yes.
Melissa: Wait, we need to pause you there. That is the first time I've heard this. So, in essence, it's almost making infidelity something that is accepted. In an unwritten way.
Mum: Well, yes, yes. You just keep quiet because he still brings home food. He still loves you. He takes you out. He brings a family on holidays, educates the children. He's there for you whenever you want him. Only when he goes out, he just has a little fling here and there. Just accept it. Because he loves you.
Melissa: Wow!
Mum: That doesn't change his love for you. No divorces. Divorce is almost a taboo subject. There's a big stigma for divorcees.
Melissa: Do you feel Mum that maybe that, that practice or that conditioning? Because there's conditioning, you're taught that right? You're taught to live by that rule? Is it a way to take the power away from women? Because if you're saying to me, well, actually, it's the same for women. As long as you own the house, you must fulfill your role as a wife and a mother. But once you leave the house, you too can. But was that the case? Or not the case?
Mum: Oh no, no, no, no, no, you'll be an outcast in the whole society. They blame you. They always blame the woman.
Melissa: Oh, don't they always? Yes.
Mum: Yeah, they always blame the woman. There's no equality at all.
Melissa: And Mom, I have to say. Don't women also blame women?
Mum: Unfortunately, we do. Instead of blaming your husband, I mean, it takes two hands to clap. You cannot always blame the other woman, if your husband is not aware of what is made available to them, and entices them with money or gifts. And those women don't have anything, they have nothing to lose. So, it's not entirely the man's fault. We always blame ourselves. I mean, another woman, you should blame the man as well.
Melissa: I agree with you. Oh this weekend. I think this conversation could go for many, many, many rounds. But let me just bring it back here. And listeners, listen, if you want Mom and I to delve into the conversation of relationship and infidelity in marriage, in another podcast episode, make sure you leave a comment and let me know that's what you want. Because we could definitely do that.
But for today, I want to come back to values. And I want to come back to generational differences. And the reason why is because we are approaching year end, we're approaching the festive season, we're approaching the New Year. And typically, it's a time when families come together. And it's typically a time also that can be very high stress because family members of all generations commune and it can get very grating, because people have different opinions, people have different ways of doing things. And it's a wonderful opportunity for us to really lean into this compassionate way of being curious, remembering that the person sitting opposite you even if it's your sibling, even if it's someone of the same generation as you, are going to see life completely differently, even on the things that you think you agree on. And you may describe as being agreeable to, you still view differently, because we are all different, but what more the elders in your family.
So having boundaries, I believe, is also very important. How do we respectfully tell an elder that you don't agree on a subject? How would you receive that? Mom, if I didn't agree with you about something? What would be the best way for me to communicate with you that I don't agree with?
Mum: Well, I must say I'm more open to it now. Many years ago, I was not open. And I said no, I don't want to hear. I'm not ready to hear what you have to see what you have to say. That's not matter. Just do what I think is right. Don't give me things that's going to annoy me or work me up. I don't want to listen to your reasons. You see, that's how we were brought up. So it took me a long time to try and say I must not do that, I must give them a chance to explain. And I must say in a way Melissa has taken me through this journey. And I have learned quite a bit that we have to listen. And then we will realize why the youth behave the way they do. Just as much as they don't understand us. We don't understand them. You see, but we are not willing to listen. And we always use our age as our weapon. And then the young ones will have to drop back, or the parents will tell them quietly, no more answering grandma. Respect. It’s rude. I think we do much less of that now. I'm quite proud to say.
Melissa: I am extremely proud of you, Mom. I mean, again, going to mention Mom was born in the 30s. I was born in the 70s. That's four decades of difference nearly, right? And even if it's one decade, it's already a different generation.
Mum: Absolutely.
Melissa: And to be mindful of that and this request that no matter your age, the most valuable quality that you can offer yourself is the quality of listening. Because at the end of the day, when we find conflict in a conversation, who’s the person who gets upset is you.
So how do we find peace in a conversation, is by listening and meeting someone where they are. I always said, can I meet you where you are, so I can hear your opinion? And I can say, Okay, I hear your opinion, I actually don't understand it. And it makes sense that I don't understand it because I didn't live during your time. I cannot see things through your eyes. I've tried, I'm going to try. And I'm also willing to accept that no matter how hard I try, maybe I will still never get it. And am I able to just acknowledge that, that is your point of view? And that is how you see the world? And can we still stand by each other?
Mum: You mean, agree to disagree?
Melissa: Not even go that far. I don't even need to disagree with you. I can just acknowledge, that is how you see the world. And maybe if it causes me harm, that says take it really one step further. Because this can cross on many areas, which we won't go in depth when he this can cross on sexual preference, it could cross on career choice, partner choice, religion, politics, parenting, okay, let's just cover some of those areas between adults and parents. I could not agree with you. And I could feel, I could believe that your opinion, right actually harms me. I could believe that. How do we still bridge that is by me, I think my way would be to say, Mum, your opinion, I find is going to harm me. So, I request that you don't share that opinion with me.
Mum: Yeah, I guess that's the best way out. There's no point because you're walking on a railroad track, parallel lines, you can speak until the cows come home, you will never reach a conclusion, which will satisfy both. So, you keep to yourself and we respect each other as much as we can, without much difficulty sometimes, and try not to touch on those topics. So, I mean, what is that? What's the value? What's the point?
Melissa: There's a million other things that we could talk about. So why don't we focus on the things that we share?
Mum: We share and enjoy, you know, we enjoy. And life is so short. We want to enjoy it. I want to enjoy my children, my grandchildren. So, it's no point arguing every time we meet, what's the point? And both go away happy. So, I've learned a lot through the years. Very slowly, but surely.
Melissa: Well, Mum, I wouldn't say very slowly. You've lived many years. And I would say that, the way that you have grown, if I may say so, is what I've witnessed and it's been a privilege for me to witness you have opened and expanded your point of view and your mind, way beyond many people who are half your age.
Mum: Yes. Because in a way, I'm lucky because I have you to teach me. Honestly. I mean, you gave me a lot of headaches. Don't think there was not a bumpy road, big bumps along the road. Very big bumps, big headaches and heartbreaks. Anyway, we won't go into that.
Melissa: There’s the railroad track right Mum That’s a railroad track.
Mum: So I think now, I want to happy track quiet on the fourth gear cruising.
Melissa: Oh, nice. In fact, just today, literally, before recording this episode, Mum and I were in the car coming back from lunch, and we were having a conversation, she was asking my point of view about something. And I said to her, in as much as I understand where you're coming from, I completely disagree. And it was so wonderful. After that I said, you know, Mum, Isn't it lovely that we've reached this point in our lives where we can sit next to each other, disagree, quite passionately on a topic, but not get heated, we can just acknowledge and respect that we have a different point of view. I'm not trying to force my point of view on her, and neither am I trying to change her mind. And she's not going to try to change mind. We respect each other as individuals.
And I think this is the most important part of any parent and child relationship that we have to acknowledge. Maybe harder for the parent to acknowledge that your child is their own person. And even though you bring them up with your values, sometimes it's enforced. But ultimately you are bringing them up with your values, that the values that they carry forward is still going to be an interpretation of your values. It's their value still, and it may be different. They may think it's the same. But everything is interpreted differently.
So, relationships ultimately are about healthy relationships, about meeting each other, meeting each other, focusing on the stuff that brings joy that you can share and acknowledging your differences, acknowledging them, we don't have to accept them. I just need to acknowledge them. Because we are different people. And I want as much as I want my mum to accept me for who I am. That's every child's gripe with most parents right?
I just want you to accept me as who I am, then I first have to accept my mother as who she is. I cannot ask for what I cannot give. What do you think Mom? Let’s wrap up. What are your final thoughts on this? What were your thoughts on for parents and children who cannot find? Who doesn't have this blessing of being able to communicate?
Mum: Oh, that's going to be tough. Normally the parents will not listen. Because I have also spoken to my peers, my friends who tell me they have difficult children and or children who don't care about them. So I told them what I tried to do with my own daughter, but it's, ah, no, no, no, no, my daughter is not like that. You think she knows everything I know. And she doesn't care about me, she only wants my money. When she wants money, she calls me. Other than that, she's either too busy or No, I call you back. And she's always on this phone. When I talk to her, she said, I'm busy Mom, they're always busy. Always 24 hours a day, they're too busy. But when they want something, we are not too busy to listen to them. You see? So, I can understand how my friends feel also, because the children also don't give time to their mother. And they have their own stories. So..
Melissa: I love that you said that they have their own stories, because there is always a reason why. Right? And you were leading up to. Why do you think that is when a child chooses to separate themselves from a parent because normally it's a child that will choose that, not is less common for a parent to be estranged from a child, right?
Mum: I think that children want their freedom. And we can be over domineering. You know, trying to be in a way always telling them what we want them to do or exact time to have dinner or Oh, you wore the wrong dress. And why do you cut your hair like this? You know, they all make comments. Just shoot out of the mouth without thinking that it may hurt the young person's feelings, because we never think about that. You know, as a mother, I thought it's my right. I just tell my child Hey, why did you cut your hair that way? It's horrible. Why are those tattoos my gosh, Over my dead body, things like that. Some children can't take that. So, they'd rather go away to live somewhere else and see you less and say hi, mom, once a month, you know, come over for lunch or something like that. There are always two sides of the coin.
Melissa: So Mum, thank you so much. Just some closing thoughts like well wishes for this festive season coming up? What tip would you give, because you've experienced many family holidays when you can feel when you can sense a little tension coming up during a family gathering. What's one thing that you would advise someone to do in order to prevent a storm from happening?
Mum: If you can't say something nice, don't say anything. Just keep quiet, and just walk away. Which is one of the most difficult things to do. I think this is the best you can do. Yeah, because when you're heated, you say things you don't mean, you walk away, three hours later you come back, you would have forgotten, and you will, because basically they are part of your family, you love them unconditionally. Whether they argue with you or not. I don't know how the children feel. But that's how normally parents are very forgiving.
Melissa: Thank you. Thank you so much Mum for agreeing to be part of this podcast. Honestly, it would not be able to be what it is. This would not happen if you were not being part of this podcast because you were instrumental in my audio journey.
Mum: Really? Well. I'm flattered. Do you think so? Anyway, I can help in any way it is always my pleasure.
Melissa: And I look forward to our festive new year's season, and perhaps a few more episodes with you along this series. So, listeners, you want to hear more from Mum, you want to hear about her perspective and what the possibilities are for our elders to change. Maybe this is something you want to share with your mom who may be resistant just to show her to model to her that anything is possible.
If we're committed to change, we want to change your relationship, we need to change the way we view ourselves within that relationship. It all starts with being fearlessly curious, it all starts with having the intention to learn more about yourself, to learn more about the other party so that when we know better, we can be better.
Don't forget, hit the subscribe button and I'll catch you in the new year. Until the next time, be fearlessly curious.
