speaker-0: How are you? You're right. Thanks for doing it. Yeah, I'm good. Thanks. Is that your nice lighting set up? It's good. Look at your little dark background. It's your self tape area.
speaker-1: I'm good, yeah? No, this is just, normally I've got like a big blue background. Yes.
speaker-0: It's an art form doing a fucking self tape, isn't it?
speaker-1: isn't it? I love it though. Do you? I like it. I wish I a self-tape room. wish I had spare room just to it set up so I'd have to take it down and put it up again.
speaker-0: Yeah, that would be luxury to have. I don't get enough self-tapes to justify having a dedicated room. It's stage door athletic with Jack Loxton and Rob Shaw Cameron. Please, take your seats. Kickoff is about to commence. Welcome back to Stage Jorathletic. Now today's guest is actor and a friend, Peter McPherson, who joins us in the clubhouse just ahead of the new season of last year's award-winning and it's fair to say surprise BBC Three comedy hit Smoggy Queens, where he plays Harrison, the ex-lover of Dickie, the lead character played by the show's creator and writer, Phil Dunning. Now if you haven't watched Smoggy Queens, then get to the iPlayer and catch up before season two comes out. Now, Smoggy Queens is a British sitcom. It's set in Peter's hometown of Middlesbrough, centering on a close-knit group of LGBTQ plus friends who form a chosen family as they navigate life, love, identity, and community in the northeast of England. The show stars Mark Benton, the brilliant Alexandra Mardello, I think is really fab in it, with guest cameos by Michelle Visage.
speaker-1: you
speaker-0: and money guru Steph McGovern amongst others. It blends a bit of slapstick humour, heart, regional pride and it follows the gang's chaotic adventures from navigating relationships and competitions to big local events like Pride, all with loads of camp, wigs, snatching comedy and affectionate digs at local culture and each other. Well, mainly the baby gay Stuart played by Elijah Young. Sir Peter, trained in London as an actor, has built a really... solid career across theatre, television and film and you may know him from his stint in Hollyoaks and he rather wonderfully was quite critical in helping me get my role on Corrie. More on that to come as well as some notes swapping on syrup acting. Whilst Peter would absolutely not describe himself as a sportsman or indeed a sports fan, he has played a rugby player on film and he's a proper gym boy so I want to talk to him about how his body and body image has played into his career. which I think is an interesting question for lot of performers, as well as his experience growing up in the North East and his path to seek fame and fortune in the gold-paved, or probably more likely, the rainbow-painted streets of London. So welcome to the stage door, Clubhouse, Peter MacPherson.
speaker-1: Hello, you alright? It was a nice entrance. I was like, I don't remember her.
speaker-0: Good isn't it? She wasn't it wasn't she Steph McGovern?
speaker-1: No, I know but it's the way you said money guru. thought it was a name. was like, God, I remember.
speaker-0: That's a quite good drag name, Money Guru. Brilliant, so take us back to growing up in the North East, you're a proper Middlesbrough boy, aren't you?
speaker-1: Well, no, I'm from Hartlepool. Yeah, I... My mum's from Midlandsborough. Yeah. But it's very close. It's like...
speaker-0: do you And it doesn't have the same rivalry as say, Middlesbrough, Newcastle or Sunderland and Newcastle, it? Or does it?
speaker-1: No, no, I don't think so. Because what yeah, are you talking football teams?
speaker-0: Well just look, mean the North East is quite tribal isn't it in terms of like which side of the Tyne you are, whether you're a Maccom or not a Maccom, there's a lot of regional... get... You can offend easily. you identify with any of that or were you just like I'm not really fussed?
speaker-1: ⁓ wrong. Yeah. No, not at all. I've hardly got it 17, never looked back.
speaker-0: Did you? Did you?
speaker-1: No, do you know, but it's nice to be back because they're Smoggy Queens. When I came to London, I was told to kind of like deny a lot of things that you are. So as 17 years old, you kind of listen to these people, you know, who are older and wiser and teaching you and you think, ⁓ they're they're fontable knowledge. so you do like my accent changed and everything did on purpose. going back.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: I always think like the things that you don't like about yourself or you deny about yourself is the things that probably make you unique. Yeah. And it's the things that you actually need to embrace. Yeah. And it is going to be your USP. So going back to doing Smoggy Queens is like a massive return home. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's so interesting, that experience you talk about was that principally through drama school and drama training when you were in that environment.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. So I trained twice. I was that bad. ⁓ I trained at London Studio Centre as a dancer in musical theatre and then later I went to drama centre.
speaker-0: Why was that? Why did you make that decision?
speaker-1: Because there's, well firstly I didn't know any schools at all. I went, I did a performing arts course for a year and all the second years, third years were auditioning for drama schools in London and I said to my tutor, I'm gonna audition, I'm thinking of auditioning. If she laughed at me, I won't do it. And ⁓ if she supported, then I'll do it. And she said, Absolutely, but you have to audition for London Studio Centre. I didn't know any schools at all. didn't do any research, nothing, just not my world. And so I only applied for one place, which was Studio Centre, auditioned, got in. They only give one scholarship out a year and I got it. And I was like, amazing. And then I did that for three years. It was great for dancing, was great for singing, but the acting wasn't what I needed. And I came away and I did musicals for a while and I always worked, did classes and read books and things privately and I would always try to implement it into the show. But I knew there was something, I didn't know how to break down a script. I got a script, I wouldn't know what to do with it. And I was like, I want to go back and I want to retrain as an actor. And I don't want to do a foundation course because They're just money-making schemes. I want to do three years full-on. And I did.
speaker-0: And why did you choose Drama Center? It's got quite a rep, hasn't it?
speaker-1: It has, yeah. Why? I believe that like, you're not right for every drama school. Yeah. And I feel like you choose them as much as they choose you. Do know what mean? Yeah. Like, I auditioned for most of them and the three I got into I think are very alike. Yeah. And it was East, no 50.
speaker-0: E17, the boy band who have a sideline training actors little known
speaker-1: Yeah, I got into that. Yeah, I turned them down
speaker-0: They were like, stay now. You're like, no, I have to go away.
speaker-1: I got into Rose Brutford and Drama Center and Drama Center did Larbonne and I thought coming from a dance background that would be, it would click with me and I find it fascinating, I find it really interesting but it's very theoretical and it never got from here like my head. to my heart or to my God. so eventually I had to be like, this isn't for me. Even though I did my three years training and that's, yeah, that was why I went to Drama Center. thought it would be, because they did Stanislavski and LARP and it was a mix and I loved Stanislavski and LARP and I thought, ⁓ this might work.
speaker-0: So for listeners, Larburn was principally a dance practitioner who developed a notation system akin to written music. So we've all probably seen music on a page with notes, but Larburn attempted to codify and create a written language for movement around actually how you move, where you move, but also the quality of the movement. And so we try to a bit like music if you're sort of playing staccato or legato. then actually was trying to bring a language to movement and there's all these things like the Laban press and all these other things. That's right, isn't it?
speaker-1: That was beautifully described. Yeah. Yeah. It's good for analyzing. It's good for analyzing a performance or a script. But yeah, it never, it just never clicked with me fully. And I was a good student, a good student doesn't necessarily mean a good actor. And I was a good student for a long time. I was ticking boxes. When I left, was like, why am I doing this? Who am I doing it for? Who am I trying to impress? If it's not working, it's not working. Everyone has their own method of working. It's like religion, you've got your big faiths. You're all trying to get to the same point, but just through different ways. But not one faith works for, it's not what's it called, one size fits all. And you have to of pick, okay, that works for me from that. Because I love it. I've tried them all, explored them all.
speaker-0: That's so cool. And so we started this discussion around this idea of authenticity. And I definitely had a similar experience where I thought in my arrogance slash naivety sense of self that I could be all things to all people, my quality was my diversity, my breadth, my ability to be comedic and impersonator, serious, all those things. And I was very aware that drama school were trying to... push me against that and say, just decide what you are. I went to Weber Douglas and that one of its, one of its guest defining qualities actually was it was really good at trying to identify what people were and telling them to go for it and, and, and rationalized that or distilled down to a couple of qualities. I remember having a class and the principal, Jago was very good. He went around the class and went, you are this, you are this, you are this, you are this based on what he'd learned from you and your aesthetic. And I was really resisting that. And of course now, some 30 years later nearly, he was right. And it's what you said, I wish I'd have learned earlier to know what I was to the world and what I presented to the... I'm not really that clear on that now, possibly. There's still a part of me who wants to be all things to all people. But we've both been in soap operas where you know when you're walking into that casting, they're not looking for a versatile, dynamic actor. they are looking for as close to the character as they imagine it as possible. In look, in accent, in character, in behaviour. So I think learning and understanding that, the sooner you do that as a young actor, the better.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. It takes insight and sometimes that takes time, if you know what I mean. Yeah. But it's true. Like you have to know what you're selling and you know, it's pointless selling a bike in a sweet shop. Do know what I mean? Like it's just, you need to know what it is. You're a business as much as I love the craft of it all. I love acting. but you have to know what you're selling, how to sell it. And also ⁓ like a brand in a way. I've got a friend who is, we're trained together and she lives in America. And I remember her, you know, she did this Facebook post being like, I'm not a brand, I'm an artist. And I thought, yes, but you need to know, like, where is your USP within, do you know what mean? How do people see you come across? And it's not saying you can't play are the roles, but it's just, you know, where are people going to put you in? It's the industry.
speaker-0: And I think perversely actually, the more you understand that early, if you can just identify what your brand is and succeed at that, that probably then opens the door and opportunity to more diversity. But if you can try to do it the other way around, the inverse of that, you probably won't get to that point. Just an artist versus performer, I think this is really interesting. I would not consider myself an artist. I really wouldn't. think artists have very different mindset, very different relationship to their work. I have a bit of a funny debate with my friend Jack about this where he says Kylie Minogue, amazing artist, and I say she's not an artist. think Kylie Minogue is an amazing performer and in many ways the perfect version of what we're talking about. She's an amazing conduit. I bet record companies love her because they can go, look, here's a new writer, here's a new stylist, here's a new genre, go do it, Kylie. And she goes, yes, thank you very much. and off she does it and she does it brilliantly and I love her, I've seen loads, I really enjoy, admire her but an artist in my opinion she's not. Gargar is an artist. That's a difference of someone who's pouring out creativity. Tilda Swinton. Crazy artist.
speaker-1: Yes. Like you get that no that's an artist. Yeah ⁓
speaker-0: That's fine. That's totally fine. I think it's fine to be a performer who isn't an artist, which I would consider myself one. I'm creative, but I'm not an artist, I would say. So, interesting. As we talk about this, let's go to this idea. I talked about it in the introduction, but I did want to explore this a little bit because you are a gym boy. You've got a great body. You've always had a good body. How old are you these days?
speaker-1: Absolutely. on Spotlight. ⁓
speaker-0: Spot on, 1850, that's my range still. I do nudge up to like 24 to 50 sometimes. But I think, you know, I think as gay actors you have a grinder age, you have your spotlight age and you've got your passport age probably. So you choose. The point being, you know, you're not a young man anymore. You're in your 30s? 40s, you see, you're looking great. You're a handsome man in your 40s with a bang body. And you've always worked hard at your body, haven't you? Is part of that sense? Is this part of your brand? When did that start? When did you start gymming?
speaker-1: I started gymming, I think, 29. It was going into my 30th birthday, which I think was a big catalyst because it was like, I was always athletic. Yeah. Because growing up, I did athletics. So I always had that. I always had big legs from running. Yeah. And then I went into dancing. So again, my legs got bigger. But I was always skinny on top, but big from, it was like two people. Yeah.
speaker-0: That game that you play where you draw a head, fold it over, pass it on, the body.
speaker-1: ⁓ And then at 30 I was like, ⁓ no, want to, the things I want to change. I don't know why, well actually maybe I do, but ⁓ I got a PT and he was like, what's your goals? And I said, I just want everyone to want to fuck me.
speaker-0: Yeah, vanity and sense of self and sexuality and what you're putting out into the world.
speaker-1: And he just was like, cannot compute. let's just be honest about this. I don't care about health. I don't care about like, I just want everyone to want me. like, I mean, just give the honest answer. That's what we all want to say, but we can't. so, and that was my goal. And I'm quite good at repetition. I'm quite like, don't, yeah, I got a PT to show me how to do it and how to get form. Once I knew that, it was like, right, I can do it myself now. Yeah. I don't gym with other people. I prefer to do it on my own. Yeah.
speaker-0: But you're very in the habit, I imagine. I mean, I've run into you in the gym a few times, generally when I'm sort of just attempting to kickstart myself back into the gym for the 18th time in two years. And yet there you are and you're doing your thing. you know, so you you're very much in the habit. Would it sort of pain you to skip a couple of weeks these days?
speaker-1: Less so now, a lot of things are changing recently, but it's also, I think, mainly mental health as well. You know what I mean? Like, kind of doing that routine, get things moving. I don't dance anymore and I feel that on my body, not stretching as much. Yeah. And that was actually quite, to stop dancing was, it was like grieving because I had like, I knew I wanted to focus on different things. and I couldn't give the same amount of time and energy and I wasn't going to be really dancing anymore. So I was like, okay, I need to take that time from here and put it there. And I'm also the gym, I find it quite sociable. Like I do talk to people while I'm there. Sometimes I'm like, oh God, been here an hour and a half and... And cardio, I've recently started cardio because yeah, it's such a dirty word, isn't it? Hate it, hate it.
speaker-0: Don't die.
speaker-1: you
speaker-0: Does it? Is it for shedding off the pounds? it? Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I just walk. I just walk on a treadmill for 20 minutes. My bit.
speaker-0: Yeah, fair do's. Yeah, good on you. Yeah. Well, I bought a bike recently and I'm attempting to get into cycling. I cycled to the gym the other day, actually. I was quite proud of myself. I cycled into the Strand from back again and worked out. I felt very pious, very, very virtuous. Yeah. So I think most of my actions are
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: bit like you for vanity for what I'm saying to the world to be able to tell someone else that I'm cycling it's very very rarely to do it's very rarely to do with what's in my own self-interest in terms of health it's just around vanity you know showing off
speaker-1: Basically. Yeah.
speaker-0: Do you think it's helped you get jobs then? you think in terms of this idea of identity it has?
speaker-1: Yeah, like when I did Afterglow, Afterglow is a play set in New York. It's about a couple who have a third. The play starts off having a threesome, having sex and then it goes into the play. So you're naked and then again, like in the play, you I'm stripped naked, get in the shower and stuff like that. In 9 to 5, the musical started off in a fake shower, basically in a juxtrap. You know what I mean? My agent is like, can you just keep your clothes on please? like, oh. give them what they want. So yeah, I'm doing a play in March in Newcastle and I get to keep my clothes on for it. It's called Shuggy Boat at the live theatre. I'll get them off eventually. I'll work it into rehearsals.
speaker-0: Oh great, what are you doing? Great, that'll be fun, really good, what's your part?
speaker-1: I play Ryan and I'm the son of Jocka and Maeve and Maeve has been denying who she really is and it's her 60th birthday and she's just like, okay, I'm a lesbian. And it throws the family into chaos because it's like, whoa, I'm the gay one. That's my identity. You've stole my identity. And Jocka, who the... He's a bit autistic and so kind of can't really compute to deal with it and goes, kind of spirals off. So it's really funny, very, very Northern set in Newcastle. So yeah, excited to...
speaker-0: had a lot of gay characters over your career, haven't you?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. the thing is, I don't mind. don't... Yeah, I know a they're all right. It's like, ⁓ Rustle Toby said, well, there's loads of different gay characters, isn't there? It's not just like, ⁓ gay. Yes. You only play gay, like, you know what mean? There's still a big range within that. I am of the, I am of the camp of like, gay people should... you're playing gay roles. Are you? ⁓
speaker-0: Therefore you don't think straight people should be playing gay roles necessarily.
speaker-1: Well, I just think they have a lot to choose from, really, do know what I mean? And I think representation really matters. And I think if there is, you know, a trans storyline, I do believe that you should look for trans actors first. And then if you can't find, then potentially branch out of it. Because there are loads of gay actors out there and brilliant gay actors. So like, And also, like, we are it, do you know what I mean? Sometimes straight actors play gay roles and it's like, mmm, you're playing an idea of a gay person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, let's say they can't.
speaker-0: Poor acting. mean, I feel I really have a different point of view about this. know Russell T Davies who wrote Queer as Folk and is the show, previous showrunner on Doctor Who and various other big shows. He's a bit of an iconic, obviously, figure in TV. You were in Years and Years, his TV show, weren't you, Preet as well? He's a big advocate of this. I have a different view about it personally. I think I connected to something wider actually around our general understanding in the conversation around equality and diversity of empathy actually that's gone missing in our world a little bit of that we slightly risking all conversations around diversity of potentially shutting down people who don't have a lived experience of a particular part of life. and that their opinion is in some way not as valid as someone else's. Now I understand that argument because it's certainly a different one and I hear the phrase lived experience, I don't know why it became lived experience. People's experience is what people mean, is obviously really, really valuable. I directed a play at Boeing Rep a few years ago, it was around Call of Duty and the actor David who played the recruiting sergeant had been in the army. It was a really nice, interesting insight that he brought into the audition. It was interesting. was the stories he could bring to the audition and the rehearsal process were really valuable. No one else was a soldier. So that was really helpful. But it wasn't the defining quality of what we needed there. And I feel very similarly about gender. I think ethnicity is actually a very different question, but around gender, around sexual identity, I think... I think it's really valuable, it's interesting, it's useful, you're going to bring insight and experience to it, but I don't think it's the only quality or should prevent other people from going there because I think actually what it is to be a performer is to go to a place and then go beyond as part of a character. To play Macbeth in Macbeth, you don't have to murdered 10 people, but you do have to have had an extraordinary sense of self, jealousy, driven nature, vanity, all these qualities. And then you go, you put the knife in your hand and then as an actor you go beyond your own morality, which would mean you would never stab someone. And that's the exciting bit for audience and performer. And so I think it's totally possible for a straight actor to go to the point of having gay sex and then beyond it in their imagination for them and the audience.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: and I would say that they might be cool.
speaker-1: What you're dealing with though, what you're saying about the Macbeth scenario is that's all human conditions and emotions and we're all human so of course anyone can do that but it's interesting that you say you know with ethnicity it's a different story but like if I go to see a play especially take a gay play and a gay story like in the theatre, majority of your audience members are going to be gay men. I'd say probably 95 % are going to be gay men. And I want to see an authenticity and I don't want to see bad acting and I don't want to see... I don't know, like, because, you know, we always banding on about, oh, we're storytellers and stuff like that. And I don't want to be taken out of the story. Yeah. But it's interesting how we don't, you know, when it comes to colour, We'll be like, well, no, can't, a white person couldn't pay a black person. It's unacceptable to do that. And it's totally right. Now, when you look at someone who is in a wheelchair or something like that, you'd be like, well, we've got people, actors who are in wheelchairs and things like that, or different disabilities. So why not use them? But when it comes to sexuality, we're happy to be like, well, no, that doesn't matter because it's an unseen thing, so to speak. But yeah.
speaker-0: I think it's a really, really interesting discussion and I think part of why I think, maybe actually where I'm coming to in this discussion is that in a majority of cases you're possibly right, but I think it's also really interesting and challenging my own thought about ethnicity. It's really interesting actually to explore the juxtaposition about those things if you're doing it consciously and as part of the storytelling and would include disability and ethnicity in that. So for example, it is interesting potentially to have a black actor play a white racist, for example. What would that do? That's something you could really explore in theatre that would be really, really interesting. And I think my hesitation is also about the homogenisation of someone in a wheelchair as defined by the fact that they're in a wheelchair and that's not who they're... Actually, I want to talk to you about this as well because I'm going to be... I was going to do this off camera but actually I think...
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: we've gone there anyway in this discussion. I'm doing a workshop at BAFTA soon with their, what's called their Breakthrough Cohort and I go and I've done it a number of times over the years around some communication coaching work that I do, how they can bring themselves to the various meetings and situations that they go in. And there'll be two participants in this workshop who are deaf and I know you've learnt BSL, haven't you?
speaker-1: Yeah. Yes, yeah.
speaker-0: And so I was having a discussion with the program manager at BAFTA just yesterday around how I will tweak what I talk about, which is often around your content, your body and your voice working together to be congruent in your communication. And if you don't have voice or you don't have hearing in one part of the communication, then it puts a different emphasis on other parts of your means to communicate, your written word, your physicality. you're your lips if you're helping someone understand you who's a lip reader, your hand gestures if you're using BSL or not using BSL but you've just been demonstrative. What has learning BSL given you both personally and as an actor?
speaker-1: God, one, I love learning. That's what I've realized over the years. There's like a common thing. And I love, it's given me confidence to, I never thought I'd be able to learn another language. It was something that was quite shut off for me in some way in my, in my head. And I love, I use it every day. Do you? Yeah, every single day. I love it so much. And I'm trying to think what it's given me. It's,
speaker-0: Right.
speaker-1: It's given me, because deaf people, it's a different grammatical structure. And so it does make you think different. When I wake up in the morning, sometimes I try to think in BSL. Really? Yeah, in like, yeah.
speaker-0: What does that mean? Talk us through that. What do you mean by thinking BSL?
speaker-1: So, like the grammatical structure of it. So if I said, I'm going to the gym tomorrow, in the SL, you start with time, so it's tomorrow, and then it's the topic, which is gym, then it's the subject, which is me or I, and then it's the action, which is to go. So it would be tomorrow, gym, go.
speaker-0: That is a well established structural part of the language so that people know, okay they're starting with this then they're moving on to that as a way of orientation in listening.
speaker-1: and Because you need to know what they need to know what you're talking about. So if I said big, what am I talking about? You don't know. If I said big black, what am I talking about? You still don't know. And if I said big black horse, you'd be like, okay. Yeah. You're like, if I said horse, you'd be like, yeah, what about it? Because you know what I'm talking about. say, ⁓ it's black. Do know what I mean? So you kind of like, yeah.
speaker-0: Yes, okay, yep. Really, really interesting. And so, what a deaf person that you're communicating to with BSL, would they consider themselves a listener or a reader? How do they... How is that?
speaker-1: I'd say a listener, yeah, receptive, yeah. I'd say a listener. It's so interesting, like communication. the difference that I didn't realize is the understanding is different from speaking it. Because it's the first time really for me that I've learned another language consciously where English, I grew up with it. So I didn't know there'd be a difference.
speaker-0: So here's a challenge then now. So if you were offered a role playing a straight deaf character, you wouldn't accept it.
speaker-1: wouldn't accept it. No, because it's not a gay Deaf co- No, not even deaf. No, because there's deaf actors out there who are brilliant, who it should be going to them. And yeah, it's their culture. It's their, you know, if I was playing a coder, which is a child of deaf adults, I could do that. Or if I was someone who was in a relationship with a deaf person.
speaker-0: Rector. or a formally hearing person.
speaker-1: What does that mean? As in they were used to hear before. Eventually, yes. Yeah. Because then they weren't, if they weren't a native ⁓ BSL user, then yes. But then going back to what you were saying before is that, and I think it's nice seeing all these dramas and things that happening with BSL, like Rose and stuff. And what would be nice would be
speaker-0: Yes, it might have lost their head.
speaker-1: to get to a point where it's not about a deaf issue anymore. Do you what I mean? Where they can play a story but actually it's not a deaf issue but it's just that they're deaf.
speaker-0: This is why it's such a rich debate, isn't it? Is that where do we put people's quality and where does identity in all its forms sit in the hierarchy of people's relationship to self and relationship to audience. It's such a fascinating debate. And I think we're on a big journey in transition with all of this stuff and it might settle in a different place in years to come. Who knows? Really interesting stuff. So take us to Smoggy Queens, talk us through that whole experience. Did they just...
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Talking about identity, did they just find every gay North East actor and get them in it?
speaker-1: I think so. They did this differently, Smuggy Queens. it was when Eurovision was at Liverpool. So I was in Liverpool and I got...
speaker-0: Yes. You were- were you on holly oaks at that point?
speaker-1: No, no. Yeah. And I got the, what's it called, audition through and I was sick. I was ill. I was ill, ill, ill in bed. Yeah. And I, we paid all this money to go to Eurovision and I would like having to drag myself there. And I was like, ⁓ God. And I had, so I did the self-tape, but like,
speaker-0: Just a fan of Eurovision. Same.
speaker-1: it was a struggle. yeah. And also I couldn't do a Middlesbrough accent because I'd forgotten how to do it. And so I did a bit of a Geordie accent anyway, so sent it off and I got it. But what they did with it was they wanted to cast it first before they took it to the BBC. And so we had a couple of days rehearsing the first episode, like a table read, and then they invited the BBC over. and then we did it and they absolutely loved it. They said it was like one of the best table reads they've ever had. And I think that why that was is because they cast it first rather than saying this is the show and then casting it. So I've been on it since day one and it's like a family. Honest to God, I've never been in a company of actors where we just
speaker-0: great.
speaker-1: or we have a WhatsApp group and we support each other. Elijah was staying with me the other day. We'll go and see everyone, whatever they're doing. We're going to see Lauren, who plays Mel in the coven. Yeah, like we just have such a lovely group and a clique.
speaker-0: A closer to a theatre ensemble. It's hard to get that on telly shows, isn't it? But when you're in a theatre company, that's often, you you might have that and maybe only for the period of the show, but it feels like this has really extended and gone beyond that and cemented itself a little bit more deeply. Cool. And so you film the second series and in the first series you're playing Phil's characters X.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah
speaker-0: I guess partly in the writing of the second series they're like, I want to keep these people around. So has your role developed a little bit? it?
speaker-1: Yeah. Well, this is the thing, because we in the original, I just assumed, well, I've broken up with him, that's it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm only going to be in one episode. Yeah. But because we all got on, Phil was like, fuck it, I'm going to like meet the right, can do what you want. But he brought everyone back. He brought me back. So it kept me in for the series. So and then made it that we worked together as well. So there was all that connection and it was not big. you know, There is really a lot of potential for bumping into each other all the time. Originally I was only meant to be one episode and then, yeah. when we'd filmed the pilot, we were all sat around the table having a drink afterwards. And I just was like, Phil, I hope this is everything you want it to be. I hope it brings you everything. And like, I wish you all the best kind of thing. Thinking that would be it, but still doing it.
speaker-0: Yeah, and it's had a great reaction for him and for the show more broadly, hasn't it? What's he like? us a bit about him and his process.
speaker-1: He's really generous. He doesn't keep the best things for him. He'll give it to other people. And yeah, just really, really lovely. There's no like, I'm the writer, I'm this, I'm that. He's just down to earth. Really lovely. Great sense of humour. And we just giggle all the time. Great. You know, what a nice place to be, like on a set where you feel free to, if you've got an idea or, you know, you can bring it up and you don't feel, you know what I mean? Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. And so how has that changed your relationship with the Northeast again? You said, I don't know how flippantly earlier, you you got the hell out of there at 17, but this is taking you back. You're about to do a show in Newcastle. Often that's the case, right? When you've got a local show, then that's going to help that audience there. How are you feeling about being back in the Northeast?
speaker-1: Yeah, not that good. Like I feel, I do feel a bit bad to be honest. I was a bit like, you know, denied and it and kind of, yeah. So it feels nice to be back and to appreciate it really for, do know what mean? Like, I don't know. It's a bit like the kind of, is it educating Rita where you kind of, she get, you know, but she can never go back. Do you know what I mean? It will never be the same, but. actually because she wanted to better herself but actually there's still there's something about it that's got heart and yeah.
speaker-0: Do think there's something about age and coming back in that? know, I mean, I moved to London, very excited about moving to London. I very much would consider London home. been here for 30 years now. ⁓ But filming Corrie in Manchester, then my family being in York, I've been going a lot more up to Yorkshire and Lancashire. My brother-in-law is a Geordie. My nephew's gone to Newcastle Uni.
speaker-1: not quite that.
speaker-0: I really, really enjoy going back these days. I enjoy the conversations you have with the cashier in boots. I enjoy thanking the bus driver. I enjoy just people interacting with strangers in all kinds of contexts. I think people are more patient. I think they're fun. I think there's a bit of a cliche, the speakers you find, but I think people really are.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: they live inclusivity in a much better way in my experience where, you know, they really are much more embracing of difference, I think, when I go back. How do you
speaker-1: that? I feel, yes there is like this culture to it which is, is, it is warmer friendly in some ways but also like I do feel like an alien when I go back. I do feel like I always stick out. Yeah. And I, and sometimes like I'll try and, not try to like change a little bit how I dress because I just, I won't wear that in Harley Paul. Yeah. I think why it, for me getting away from it was because I feel safer in London than I do in Hartlepool. yeah, you know, and I was bullied a lot at school and things and walking through the town centre can be very self-conscious, do you know what I mean? Like, just think, oh, I just, they know I don't, I'm not from here. If you know what mean, even though I am from there, but yeah. But when you get to talk to people, or go to my mom's like my mom and dad go to like a working men's club every Sunday. You know, yeah. Great. Tell me about that. Tell me about
speaker-0: For those who don't know, if you haven't grew up in the north of England, and I think it is, anyone who's seen Phoenix Nights, the Peter Kay sitcom, that is not a parody. I mean, of course it is a parody, but it is a kind of slight magnification of something that is a lot of people's experiences. My granddad used to go regularly down to Rothwell Working Men's Clubs, a whole network of social clubs essentially, principally across the north of England, but they do exist. in other parts of the country, I don't know how many around still. But they literally were a network where they would bulk buy beer so you could go and get a pint at heavily reduced prices from pubs for example. There was a network of performers, know, doing the rounds of doing very cheesy Jay MacDonald style performances, couples, someone on the keyboard, someone on the microphone, and places to hang out. And I know when my granddad became a widow, you know that was his the fulcrum and the center point of his social existence was heading down there he'd be on a table with friends and there was proper proper community about it but your mum and dad still do they still go to the work?
speaker-1: It stills go every Sunday, yeah.
speaker-0: Love that. Do you go down with them every now and then?
speaker-1: My mum's like, I've told them at you going in. I'm like, mom, like.
speaker-0: You're starving, suppose.
speaker-1: I mean, yeah, exactly. And it's like, it is a bit strange and you do feel like you've been shown off and yeah, it's like, and so, you know, there'll be, you know, packets of crisps and they open it for the table, you know what mean? And my mom brings, she'll have cooked, so she'll have brought like corned beef slice and stuff like that. you know, quiche. She'll have made a quiche or whatever and there'll be a turn on, you know, a band. It's a performer. Yeah, yeah, and then you know the bingo bingo and they've got like six bingo boards Yeah, dappers, but two of their dappers and they're literally it's like a machine Wow, it's watching something just in awe of like wow watch this go. Yeah. Yeah
speaker-0: You must be right at home here in the stage-dry authentic clubhouse. This is like home from home. How cool. I love that. I love that. It's so nostalgic to me and I think it speaks that sort of sense of community. And of course, whilst you might, you know, feel a little bit of an alien in the North East, you do find home from home by attending Greg's bakery quite frequently, don't you? Where did your obsession with Greg's come from? Is it just being a North East fire? You kind of really owned this.
speaker-1: Yes, no-
speaker-0: Of all the people I know, you're obsessed with Greggs, aren't you?
speaker-1: I want to be the face of Greg's. I'm going to change my name because I've seen it descend the country. It's followed me. Yeah, it basically followed me. So the first time I saw it in London, was like, ⁓ my God, like, wow. And whoever's doing the marketing on it and behind it, yeah, they're really like, wow. And of course you get different things up north that you don't get down here as well, you know.
speaker-0: Yes, yes.
speaker-1: corned beef, pasties, get pies up there, stotty cakes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's right.
speaker-0: good. Love it. And I reference in the introduction that when I did my self tapes for Corrie, the first I did on my own and then when they asked me to do more I had to do like four scenes and normally when you're doing a self tape we talked about this Jack and I but you know you need to recruit someone to come and help you do it and you know I'm fortunate I live with two mates who are actors but they were both away so normally we can all service each other's self tape needs. But everyone was away, I called some other friends and I was like, do you know what? Peter would be great at this. And I called you in and bribed you with some Greg's vouchers. I know you would have done it free, but I bought you some Greg's vouchers to come round and help read in those scenes for me. And you did such a great job, which got me the gig. So I'm entirely grateful. I want 10 % Yes, with sausage rolls for that. How was your experience in Southland when you were doing Hollyoaks?
speaker-1: Yeah, it was good. it was a bit of an experience because I got the self-tape through for Hollyoaks for this character and I did it. And then my friend, do know Alan Turkington? Yes. He messaged me, he was like, will you help me with the self-tape? I've got it for Hollyoaks. And I was like, and I said to David, my ex, was like, what do I do? Like, I've got this, you know, I mean, for me, it's not a problem because I'm not.
speaker-0: Yes, yeah.
speaker-1: I'm not this thing of like, oh, they're going to take my role or whatever. It's not my role. And of course I want to get it, but like, if I don't get it, I them, my friend to get it. You know what I mean? So I went around and I said, look, Alan, I'm going to be really straight with you. I'm up for the same role as well. He said, really? said, yeah. I said, but I've done myself tape and I've sent it off. said, okay, well, if you've done that, then it's fine. So I helped him with his self tape. Yeah. And then sabotage.
speaker-0: Thank
speaker-1: Saturday, we both got recalls. So we both went to the recall in London together. Again, in prep, going through the scene before with each other. Then we both got chemistry reads. So we both had to travel all the way to Liverpool on the same train, everything like, and we just, was nice actually, because it was a way of keeping each other company and taking our minds off it. also, do want to go over the scene? Right, let's do it. Let's be there for each other. And then there was only three of us in there. So we're like, okay, it could be, you know. And then I didn't get it and he didn't get it. So we're like, ⁓ it must be the other person. But it wasn't even the other person. David Ames got it. It wasn't even there, but like he must have filmed it another day. And so the good thing was is that... Holyoaks, like they loved our auditions so much that they actually wrote as both characters within the storyline. Yeah. So, and I was only meant to be in a couple of episodes and it ended up like expanding a year over like the whole storyline. Yeah. So yeah.
speaker-0: It's so interesting because I also went into Liverpool for that part. Yeah. And that was on the back of Corey, after Corey. And I didn't do a great job. remember not quite. Well, it was really weird. I remember my experience like having spent, you know, 18 months in Salford in the Corey studios. went to Liverpool to Lime Street Pictures where Hollyoaks is filmed and it all just felt a little bit. just not quite as good, you know, because it's a sort of old converter building and Corrie's well, only a years old, the new set in Salford, so the green room and the dressing rooms and the canteen is fantastic and a real centre for the whole production and everything and the production offices all come onto each other and I remember turning up in Liverpool to go meet the casting director and... just when I think the canteen's a bit rubbish and it's a bit cold here and it all feels like an old school so I just got very snobby in my head and I think that must have played through subtly into what I did and I feel like Peter and the cast director just didn't quite like what I'd done. Yes, I messed that up as well I think. But it's so funny and then when I found out David Ames got it, who I know as well, I know you know as well.
speaker-1: Yeah
speaker-0: I was like, ⁓ my god, it's such a lincestuous world, then you rocked up on it. And actually what they do, and this is very common and it's actually happening in my storyline now, they've of, they pull back on a bit of story and they're now delivering through a different character like three years later. And things evolve and change all the time. so I think that also speaks to this idea of any younger actors listening is that go in, and I got this advice from one of the directors actually, I was being really faithful to the scripts in Cory that weren't that dynamic because they were really struggling to know where this character was fitting because they changed the storyline arc. And he was like, go and make it your own. The writers will respond to you if you go in and do something. And that was such a foreign idea to me. And I felt like I didn't know where to take it actually. But I think it's really interesting if you get an opportunity in these things and your background has been theatre. you want to come in and the writer is the thing and you want to be faithful to the part and you want to give it over to them. But in telly, I don't think it works like that. The writers will respond to you much, more. And so I think that's a lesson for me.
speaker-1: Yeah, because I think if you in come on with a strong commitment of a strong character then eventually they will start to hear that character and how they Speak and join a mean and they'll start writing like, you know cat from EastEnders They know exactly how cat will respond. Yeah, she's you know the mean and yeah and it is like we're told in drama schools because you work on these amazing texts and you Chekhov Shakespeare and all these, you know mammoths and stuff and you know, to honor that because it's the Bible and to not change anything. And so when you work on soaps, these are constantly changing, adapting, even on the day sometimes it's changed.
speaker-0: And there isn't one voice. This is like, you know, the scripts are coming through and there are like eight or nine writers that they're using. So they all have to pick up from each other. So actually the only constant in that is you. So I think you've got to grab that moment much, more.
speaker-1: Directors, the directors change and everything. yeah, ⁓ so like I remember you can change bits, that's okay. Like as in like little tiny things, you know, if you want to change a word, like a very specific word, then you'd ask the director and he'd say yes or no, or they'd say yes or no. And then if you wanted to change a sentence, then you'd go, okay, let's check with the right room. Let's call them up and then they'll either green light it or not. And they'll come back to the yes or no.
speaker-0: Or if you've got a certain profile within a soap opera and you haven't learnt the lines, then you can just argue your case for a change, not because it's right or because the writer wants something, just because of your first force of personality. The fact they want an easy life. So that's the other way to do it, but I never felt able to do that. I was so diligent. knew every ready word and every possibility, but not always the case.
speaker-1: Yes No Yeah, I remember we like, teched a scene before lunch and then we had lunch, came back and this other actor had rewritten the scene and he went, um, so this is what I'm going to say. And he'd totally taken all my lines away. And I was like, yeah. And I'm like, this, like, I don't have many anyway. So please don't make me like redundant in this scene. Do you know what mean? And it was just. It was like, ⁓ is anyone going to call this out? Of course, no one is going to say anything. So that was a bit of a, it was hard because you were like, ⁓ wow. Like you don't think, of course to me, it's really important that I say this line. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, that was the tricky. ⁓
speaker-0: I'm just not that person, but I'm going, maybe that's what comes with ego and comfort and overtime, I don't know.
speaker-1: I think like Smoggy Queens, right? We all come together and everyone wants to do the best job ever. Like we're only here for a limited time. We're all excited. We're doing this for the first, not first time, but you know what I mean? Kind of everything's new where when you've been in a soap for so long, it's just another day and it's just a job. There's not that excitement. So when you're a new person coming in and you're bubbly nervous excited and you're hit with you know you don't really care or I don't know there's a difference.
speaker-0: Now, you wouldn't know from listening to this episode, but this is also a sports podcast, Do you go to any sport? Have you been to any big sporting arenas in your life? Have you ever had that sort of theatre of sport experience?
speaker-1: I've been to Wembley ⁓
speaker-0: It doesn't. Are there any big sports fans in the cast? Is Mark Benton a sports fan?
speaker-1: ⁓ he doesn't talk to me. No, you can't touch him. I'm not allowed to touch him. ⁓ I think there's a few Middlesbrough fans in there. Yes, I they've been to see a few Middlesbrough matches. I mean, my dad was a really big footballer when I was younger. wanted to play. Yeah, he wanted to be goalie and he got not sectioned. That's not the right word. What's the word when you're like recruited?
speaker-0: Sections. Sections. You haven't made the squad, here's a home for mental health.
speaker-1: You know. And he wanted me to be a footballer, I think. And he gave me a pair of football boots when I was about six. And I put them on and they made a clippy clopping sound on E-high heels. And I think that's when they knew he might be gay. And all I wanted to do was take the front stud out so I had like a cheeky kitten heel. My mum used to have her own netball team.
speaker-0: Yes, great. Well, I appreciate you really scraping the barrel to try and make some link here, but I think we'll just leave it there. That is great. Brilliant. What a great chat. I really love that. So Smog Queen, if you haven't watched it, go watch it on iPlayer. And you said earlier, and feel free not to answer this question, in relation to the gym, and I said, you know, would you not go for the Blue Weeks now? You said, no, the things are a little bit different.
speaker-1: Hahaha
speaker-0: What's shifting in your mind at the minute? you feeling just different about life?
speaker-1: Yeah, lot of changes are happening personally, like separated from my husband for 12 years. There's a lot of, I think I was doing a lot of things for other people in a sense, you know, and now I'm at a point where I'm not doing that anymore. But it's interesting because I'm clocking it, like, hang on, I would do it for other people, but why would I not do it for myself? And so that's an interesting thing to explore. relationship with myself dynamic to take to my therapist you know so yeah and also winter and yeah and so like it's things have been up and down yeah and ⁓ yeah
speaker-0: Well I think that's brilliant and I think a really great part of what it is to keep growing and maturing as a person I definitely know I've had ⁓ certain little key markers in my life where, for whatever reason, be driven by circumstance or yourself and you make a ship and things really get thrown up in the air and land in different places. I think they're great opportunities for growth and, you know, coming out of a long relationship is always inevitably going to prompt that. But all the very, very best of luck in whatever this next phase brings and I love the fact that you're embracing it and stepping toward it.
speaker-1: I'm excited because it's the unknown as much as it's scary. It's like Yeah, but it's exciting at the same time. Yeah
speaker-0: brilliant well let's tuck into this bit of quiche that your mum sent and we'll watch some old repeat thanks for some repeats of Spoggy Queens thanks for coming and really appreciate it
speaker-1: So, thank you.
speaker-1: I'm good, yeah? No, this is just, normally I've got like a big blue background. Yes.
speaker-0: It's an art form doing a fucking self tape, isn't it?
speaker-1: isn't it? I love it though. Do you? I like it. I wish I a self-tape room. wish I had spare room just to it set up so I'd have to take it down and put it up again.
speaker-0: Yeah, that would be luxury to have. I don't get enough self-tapes to justify having a dedicated room. It's stage door athletic with Jack Loxton and Rob Shaw Cameron. Please, take your seats. Kickoff is about to commence. Welcome back to Stage Jorathletic. Now today's guest is actor and a friend, Peter McPherson, who joins us in the clubhouse just ahead of the new season of last year's award-winning and it's fair to say surprise BBC Three comedy hit Smoggy Queens, where he plays Harrison, the ex-lover of Dickie, the lead character played by the show's creator and writer, Phil Dunning. Now if you haven't watched Smoggy Queens, then get to the iPlayer and catch up before season two comes out. Now, Smoggy Queens is a British sitcom. It's set in Peter's hometown of Middlesbrough, centering on a close-knit group of LGBTQ plus friends who form a chosen family as they navigate life, love, identity, and community in the northeast of England. The show stars Mark Benton, the brilliant Alexandra Mardello, I think is really fab in it, with guest cameos by Michelle Visage.
speaker-1: you
speaker-0: and money guru Steph McGovern amongst others. It blends a bit of slapstick humour, heart, regional pride and it follows the gang's chaotic adventures from navigating relationships and competitions to big local events like Pride, all with loads of camp, wigs, snatching comedy and affectionate digs at local culture and each other. Well, mainly the baby gay Stuart played by Elijah Young. Sir Peter, trained in London as an actor, has built a really... solid career across theatre, television and film and you may know him from his stint in Hollyoaks and he rather wonderfully was quite critical in helping me get my role on Corrie. More on that to come as well as some notes swapping on syrup acting. Whilst Peter would absolutely not describe himself as a sportsman or indeed a sports fan, he has played a rugby player on film and he's a proper gym boy so I want to talk to him about how his body and body image has played into his career. which I think is an interesting question for lot of performers, as well as his experience growing up in the North East and his path to seek fame and fortune in the gold-paved, or probably more likely, the rainbow-painted streets of London. So welcome to the stage door, Clubhouse, Peter MacPherson.
speaker-1: Hello, you alright? It was a nice entrance. I was like, I don't remember her.
speaker-0: Good isn't it? She wasn't it wasn't she Steph McGovern?
speaker-1: No, I know but it's the way you said money guru. thought it was a name. was like, God, I remember.
speaker-0: That's a quite good drag name, Money Guru. Brilliant, so take us back to growing up in the North East, you're a proper Middlesbrough boy, aren't you?
speaker-1: Well, no, I'm from Hartlepool. Yeah, I... My mum's from Midlandsborough. Yeah. But it's very close. It's like...
speaker-0: do you And it doesn't have the same rivalry as say, Middlesbrough, Newcastle or Sunderland and Newcastle, it? Or does it?
speaker-1: No, no, I don't think so. Because what yeah, are you talking football teams?
speaker-0: Well just look, mean the North East is quite tribal isn't it in terms of like which side of the Tyne you are, whether you're a Maccom or not a Maccom, there's a lot of regional... get... You can offend easily. you identify with any of that or were you just like I'm not really fussed?
speaker-1: ⁓ wrong. Yeah. No, not at all. I've hardly got it 17, never looked back.
speaker-0: Did you? Did you?
speaker-1: No, do you know, but it's nice to be back because they're Smoggy Queens. When I came to London, I was told to kind of like deny a lot of things that you are. So as 17 years old, you kind of listen to these people, you know, who are older and wiser and teaching you and you think, ⁓ they're they're fontable knowledge. so you do like my accent changed and everything did on purpose. going back.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: I always think like the things that you don't like about yourself or you deny about yourself is the things that probably make you unique. Yeah. And it's the things that you actually need to embrace. Yeah. And it is going to be your USP. So going back to doing Smoggy Queens is like a massive return home. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's so interesting, that experience you talk about was that principally through drama school and drama training when you were in that environment.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. So I trained twice. I was that bad. ⁓ I trained at London Studio Centre as a dancer in musical theatre and then later I went to drama centre.
speaker-0: Why was that? Why did you make that decision?
speaker-1: Because there's, well firstly I didn't know any schools at all. I went, I did a performing arts course for a year and all the second years, third years were auditioning for drama schools in London and I said to my tutor, I'm gonna audition, I'm thinking of auditioning. If she laughed at me, I won't do it. And ⁓ if she supported, then I'll do it. And she said, Absolutely, but you have to audition for London Studio Centre. I didn't know any schools at all. didn't do any research, nothing, just not my world. And so I only applied for one place, which was Studio Centre, auditioned, got in. They only give one scholarship out a year and I got it. And I was like, amazing. And then I did that for three years. It was great for dancing, was great for singing, but the acting wasn't what I needed. And I came away and I did musicals for a while and I always worked, did classes and read books and things privately and I would always try to implement it into the show. But I knew there was something, I didn't know how to break down a script. I got a script, I wouldn't know what to do with it. And I was like, I want to go back and I want to retrain as an actor. And I don't want to do a foundation course because They're just money-making schemes. I want to do three years full-on. And I did.
speaker-0: And why did you choose Drama Center? It's got quite a rep, hasn't it?
speaker-1: It has, yeah. Why? I believe that like, you're not right for every drama school. Yeah. And I feel like you choose them as much as they choose you. Do know what mean? Yeah. Like, I auditioned for most of them and the three I got into I think are very alike. Yeah. And it was East, no 50.
speaker-0: E17, the boy band who have a sideline training actors little known
speaker-1: Yeah, I got into that. Yeah, I turned them down
speaker-0: They were like, stay now. You're like, no, I have to go away.
speaker-1: I got into Rose Brutford and Drama Center and Drama Center did Larbonne and I thought coming from a dance background that would be, it would click with me and I find it fascinating, I find it really interesting but it's very theoretical and it never got from here like my head. to my heart or to my God. so eventually I had to be like, this isn't for me. Even though I did my three years training and that's, yeah, that was why I went to Drama Center. thought it would be, because they did Stanislavski and LARP and it was a mix and I loved Stanislavski and LARP and I thought, ⁓ this might work.
speaker-0: So for listeners, Larburn was principally a dance practitioner who developed a notation system akin to written music. So we've all probably seen music on a page with notes, but Larburn attempted to codify and create a written language for movement around actually how you move, where you move, but also the quality of the movement. And so we try to a bit like music if you're sort of playing staccato or legato. then actually was trying to bring a language to movement and there's all these things like the Laban press and all these other things. That's right, isn't it?
speaker-1: That was beautifully described. Yeah. Yeah. It's good for analyzing. It's good for analyzing a performance or a script. But yeah, it never, it just never clicked with me fully. And I was a good student, a good student doesn't necessarily mean a good actor. And I was a good student for a long time. I was ticking boxes. When I left, was like, why am I doing this? Who am I doing it for? Who am I trying to impress? If it's not working, it's not working. Everyone has their own method of working. It's like religion, you've got your big faiths. You're all trying to get to the same point, but just through different ways. But not one faith works for, it's not what's it called, one size fits all. And you have to of pick, okay, that works for me from that. Because I love it. I've tried them all, explored them all.
speaker-0: That's so cool. And so we started this discussion around this idea of authenticity. And I definitely had a similar experience where I thought in my arrogance slash naivety sense of self that I could be all things to all people, my quality was my diversity, my breadth, my ability to be comedic and impersonator, serious, all those things. And I was very aware that drama school were trying to... push me against that and say, just decide what you are. I went to Weber Douglas and that one of its, one of its guest defining qualities actually was it was really good at trying to identify what people were and telling them to go for it and, and, and rationalized that or distilled down to a couple of qualities. I remember having a class and the principal, Jago was very good. He went around the class and went, you are this, you are this, you are this, you are this based on what he'd learned from you and your aesthetic. And I was really resisting that. And of course now, some 30 years later nearly, he was right. And it's what you said, I wish I'd have learned earlier to know what I was to the world and what I presented to the... I'm not really that clear on that now, possibly. There's still a part of me who wants to be all things to all people. But we've both been in soap operas where you know when you're walking into that casting, they're not looking for a versatile, dynamic actor. they are looking for as close to the character as they imagine it as possible. In look, in accent, in character, in behaviour. So I think learning and understanding that, the sooner you do that as a young actor, the better.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. It takes insight and sometimes that takes time, if you know what I mean. Yeah. But it's true. Like you have to know what you're selling and you know, it's pointless selling a bike in a sweet shop. Do know what I mean? Like it's just, you need to know what it is. You're a business as much as I love the craft of it all. I love acting. but you have to know what you're selling, how to sell it. And also ⁓ like a brand in a way. I've got a friend who is, we're trained together and she lives in America. And I remember her, you know, she did this Facebook post being like, I'm not a brand, I'm an artist. And I thought, yes, but you need to know, like, where is your USP within, do you know what mean? How do people see you come across? And it's not saying you can't play are the roles, but it's just, you know, where are people going to put you in? It's the industry.
speaker-0: And I think perversely actually, the more you understand that early, if you can just identify what your brand is and succeed at that, that probably then opens the door and opportunity to more diversity. But if you can try to do it the other way around, the inverse of that, you probably won't get to that point. Just an artist versus performer, I think this is really interesting. I would not consider myself an artist. I really wouldn't. think artists have very different mindset, very different relationship to their work. I have a bit of a funny debate with my friend Jack about this where he says Kylie Minogue, amazing artist, and I say she's not an artist. think Kylie Minogue is an amazing performer and in many ways the perfect version of what we're talking about. She's an amazing conduit. I bet record companies love her because they can go, look, here's a new writer, here's a new stylist, here's a new genre, go do it, Kylie. And she goes, yes, thank you very much. and off she does it and she does it brilliantly and I love her, I've seen loads, I really enjoy, admire her but an artist in my opinion she's not. Gargar is an artist. That's a difference of someone who's pouring out creativity. Tilda Swinton. Crazy artist.
speaker-1: Yes. Like you get that no that's an artist. Yeah ⁓
speaker-0: That's fine. That's totally fine. I think it's fine to be a performer who isn't an artist, which I would consider myself one. I'm creative, but I'm not an artist, I would say. So, interesting. As we talk about this, let's go to this idea. I talked about it in the introduction, but I did want to explore this a little bit because you are a gym boy. You've got a great body. You've always had a good body. How old are you these days?
speaker-1: Absolutely. on Spotlight. ⁓
speaker-0: Spot on, 1850, that's my range still. I do nudge up to like 24 to 50 sometimes. But I think, you know, I think as gay actors you have a grinder age, you have your spotlight age and you've got your passport age probably. So you choose. The point being, you know, you're not a young man anymore. You're in your 30s? 40s, you see, you're looking great. You're a handsome man in your 40s with a bang body. And you've always worked hard at your body, haven't you? Is part of that sense? Is this part of your brand? When did that start? When did you start gymming?
speaker-1: I started gymming, I think, 29. It was going into my 30th birthday, which I think was a big catalyst because it was like, I was always athletic. Yeah. Because growing up, I did athletics. So I always had that. I always had big legs from running. Yeah. And then I went into dancing. So again, my legs got bigger. But I was always skinny on top, but big from, it was like two people. Yeah.
speaker-0: That game that you play where you draw a head, fold it over, pass it on, the body.
speaker-1: ⁓ And then at 30 I was like, ⁓ no, want to, the things I want to change. I don't know why, well actually maybe I do, but ⁓ I got a PT and he was like, what's your goals? And I said, I just want everyone to want to fuck me.
speaker-0: Yeah, vanity and sense of self and sexuality and what you're putting out into the world.
speaker-1: And he just was like, cannot compute. let's just be honest about this. I don't care about health. I don't care about like, I just want everyone to want me. like, I mean, just give the honest answer. That's what we all want to say, but we can't. so, and that was my goal. And I'm quite good at repetition. I'm quite like, don't, yeah, I got a PT to show me how to do it and how to get form. Once I knew that, it was like, right, I can do it myself now. Yeah. I don't gym with other people. I prefer to do it on my own. Yeah.
speaker-0: But you're very in the habit, I imagine. I mean, I've run into you in the gym a few times, generally when I'm sort of just attempting to kickstart myself back into the gym for the 18th time in two years. And yet there you are and you're doing your thing. you know, so you you're very much in the habit. Would it sort of pain you to skip a couple of weeks these days?
speaker-1: Less so now, a lot of things are changing recently, but it's also, I think, mainly mental health as well. You know what I mean? Like, kind of doing that routine, get things moving. I don't dance anymore and I feel that on my body, not stretching as much. Yeah. And that was actually quite, to stop dancing was, it was like grieving because I had like, I knew I wanted to focus on different things. and I couldn't give the same amount of time and energy and I wasn't going to be really dancing anymore. So I was like, okay, I need to take that time from here and put it there. And I'm also the gym, I find it quite sociable. Like I do talk to people while I'm there. Sometimes I'm like, oh God, been here an hour and a half and... And cardio, I've recently started cardio because yeah, it's such a dirty word, isn't it? Hate it, hate it.
speaker-0: Don't die.
speaker-1: you
speaker-0: Does it? Is it for shedding off the pounds? it? Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I just walk. I just walk on a treadmill for 20 minutes. My bit.
speaker-0: Yeah, fair do's. Yeah, good on you. Yeah. Well, I bought a bike recently and I'm attempting to get into cycling. I cycled to the gym the other day, actually. I was quite proud of myself. I cycled into the Strand from back again and worked out. I felt very pious, very, very virtuous. Yeah. So I think most of my actions are
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: bit like you for vanity for what I'm saying to the world to be able to tell someone else that I'm cycling it's very very rarely to do it's very rarely to do with what's in my own self-interest in terms of health it's just around vanity you know showing off
speaker-1: Basically. Yeah.
speaker-0: Do you think it's helped you get jobs then? you think in terms of this idea of identity it has?
speaker-1: Yeah, like when I did Afterglow, Afterglow is a play set in New York. It's about a couple who have a third. The play starts off having a threesome, having sex and then it goes into the play. So you're naked and then again, like in the play, you I'm stripped naked, get in the shower and stuff like that. In 9 to 5, the musical started off in a fake shower, basically in a juxtrap. You know what I mean? My agent is like, can you just keep your clothes on please? like, oh. give them what they want. So yeah, I'm doing a play in March in Newcastle and I get to keep my clothes on for it. It's called Shuggy Boat at the live theatre. I'll get them off eventually. I'll work it into rehearsals.
speaker-0: Oh great, what are you doing? Great, that'll be fun, really good, what's your part?
speaker-1: I play Ryan and I'm the son of Jocka and Maeve and Maeve has been denying who she really is and it's her 60th birthday and she's just like, okay, I'm a lesbian. And it throws the family into chaos because it's like, whoa, I'm the gay one. That's my identity. You've stole my identity. And Jocka, who the... He's a bit autistic and so kind of can't really compute to deal with it and goes, kind of spirals off. So it's really funny, very, very Northern set in Newcastle. So yeah, excited to...
speaker-0: had a lot of gay characters over your career, haven't you?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. the thing is, I don't mind. don't... Yeah, I know a they're all right. It's like, ⁓ Rustle Toby said, well, there's loads of different gay characters, isn't there? It's not just like, ⁓ gay. Yes. You only play gay, like, you know what mean? There's still a big range within that. I am of the, I am of the camp of like, gay people should... you're playing gay roles. Are you? ⁓
speaker-0: Therefore you don't think straight people should be playing gay roles necessarily.
speaker-1: Well, I just think they have a lot to choose from, really, do know what I mean? And I think representation really matters. And I think if there is, you know, a trans storyline, I do believe that you should look for trans actors first. And then if you can't find, then potentially branch out of it. Because there are loads of gay actors out there and brilliant gay actors. So like, And also, like, we are it, do you know what I mean? Sometimes straight actors play gay roles and it's like, mmm, you're playing an idea of a gay person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, let's say they can't.
speaker-0: Poor acting. mean, I feel I really have a different point of view about this. know Russell T Davies who wrote Queer as Folk and is the show, previous showrunner on Doctor Who and various other big shows. He's a bit of an iconic, obviously, figure in TV. You were in Years and Years, his TV show, weren't you, Preet as well? He's a big advocate of this. I have a different view about it personally. I think I connected to something wider actually around our general understanding in the conversation around equality and diversity of empathy actually that's gone missing in our world a little bit of that we slightly risking all conversations around diversity of potentially shutting down people who don't have a lived experience of a particular part of life. and that their opinion is in some way not as valid as someone else's. Now I understand that argument because it's certainly a different one and I hear the phrase lived experience, I don't know why it became lived experience. People's experience is what people mean, is obviously really, really valuable. I directed a play at Boeing Rep a few years ago, it was around Call of Duty and the actor David who played the recruiting sergeant had been in the army. It was a really nice, interesting insight that he brought into the audition. It was interesting. was the stories he could bring to the audition and the rehearsal process were really valuable. No one else was a soldier. So that was really helpful. But it wasn't the defining quality of what we needed there. And I feel very similarly about gender. I think ethnicity is actually a very different question, but around gender, around sexual identity, I think... I think it's really valuable, it's interesting, it's useful, you're going to bring insight and experience to it, but I don't think it's the only quality or should prevent other people from going there because I think actually what it is to be a performer is to go to a place and then go beyond as part of a character. To play Macbeth in Macbeth, you don't have to murdered 10 people, but you do have to have had an extraordinary sense of self, jealousy, driven nature, vanity, all these qualities. And then you go, you put the knife in your hand and then as an actor you go beyond your own morality, which would mean you would never stab someone. And that's the exciting bit for audience and performer. And so I think it's totally possible for a straight actor to go to the point of having gay sex and then beyond it in their imagination for them and the audience.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: and I would say that they might be cool.
speaker-1: What you're dealing with though, what you're saying about the Macbeth scenario is that's all human conditions and emotions and we're all human so of course anyone can do that but it's interesting that you say you know with ethnicity it's a different story but like if I go to see a play especially take a gay play and a gay story like in the theatre, majority of your audience members are going to be gay men. I'd say probably 95 % are going to be gay men. And I want to see an authenticity and I don't want to see bad acting and I don't want to see... I don't know, like, because, you know, we always banding on about, oh, we're storytellers and stuff like that. And I don't want to be taken out of the story. Yeah. But it's interesting how we don't, you know, when it comes to colour, We'll be like, well, no, can't, a white person couldn't pay a black person. It's unacceptable to do that. And it's totally right. Now, when you look at someone who is in a wheelchair or something like that, you'd be like, well, we've got people, actors who are in wheelchairs and things like that, or different disabilities. So why not use them? But when it comes to sexuality, we're happy to be like, well, no, that doesn't matter because it's an unseen thing, so to speak. But yeah.
speaker-0: I think it's a really, really interesting discussion and I think part of why I think, maybe actually where I'm coming to in this discussion is that in a majority of cases you're possibly right, but I think it's also really interesting and challenging my own thought about ethnicity. It's really interesting actually to explore the juxtaposition about those things if you're doing it consciously and as part of the storytelling and would include disability and ethnicity in that. So for example, it is interesting potentially to have a black actor play a white racist, for example. What would that do? That's something you could really explore in theatre that would be really, really interesting. And I think my hesitation is also about the homogenisation of someone in a wheelchair as defined by the fact that they're in a wheelchair and that's not who they're... Actually, I want to talk to you about this as well because I'm going to be... I was going to do this off camera but actually I think...
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: we've gone there anyway in this discussion. I'm doing a workshop at BAFTA soon with their, what's called their Breakthrough Cohort and I go and I've done it a number of times over the years around some communication coaching work that I do, how they can bring themselves to the various meetings and situations that they go in. And there'll be two participants in this workshop who are deaf and I know you've learnt BSL, haven't you?
speaker-1: Yeah. Yes, yeah.
speaker-0: And so I was having a discussion with the program manager at BAFTA just yesterday around how I will tweak what I talk about, which is often around your content, your body and your voice working together to be congruent in your communication. And if you don't have voice or you don't have hearing in one part of the communication, then it puts a different emphasis on other parts of your means to communicate, your written word, your physicality. you're your lips if you're helping someone understand you who's a lip reader, your hand gestures if you're using BSL or not using BSL but you've just been demonstrative. What has learning BSL given you both personally and as an actor?
speaker-1: God, one, I love learning. That's what I've realized over the years. There's like a common thing. And I love, it's given me confidence to, I never thought I'd be able to learn another language. It was something that was quite shut off for me in some way in my, in my head. And I love, I use it every day. Do you? Yeah, every single day. I love it so much. And I'm trying to think what it's given me. It's,
speaker-0: Right.
speaker-1: It's given me, because deaf people, it's a different grammatical structure. And so it does make you think different. When I wake up in the morning, sometimes I try to think in BSL. Really? Yeah, in like, yeah.
speaker-0: What does that mean? Talk us through that. What do you mean by thinking BSL?
speaker-1: So, like the grammatical structure of it. So if I said, I'm going to the gym tomorrow, in the SL, you start with time, so it's tomorrow, and then it's the topic, which is gym, then it's the subject, which is me or I, and then it's the action, which is to go. So it would be tomorrow, gym, go.
speaker-0: That is a well established structural part of the language so that people know, okay they're starting with this then they're moving on to that as a way of orientation in listening.
speaker-1: and Because you need to know what they need to know what you're talking about. So if I said big, what am I talking about? You don't know. If I said big black, what am I talking about? You still don't know. And if I said big black horse, you'd be like, okay. Yeah. You're like, if I said horse, you'd be like, yeah, what about it? Because you know what I'm talking about. say, ⁓ it's black. Do know what I mean? So you kind of like, yeah.
speaker-0: Yes, okay, yep. Really, really interesting. And so, what a deaf person that you're communicating to with BSL, would they consider themselves a listener or a reader? How do they... How is that?
speaker-1: I'd say a listener, yeah, receptive, yeah. I'd say a listener. It's so interesting, like communication. the difference that I didn't realize is the understanding is different from speaking it. Because it's the first time really for me that I've learned another language consciously where English, I grew up with it. So I didn't know there'd be a difference.
speaker-0: So here's a challenge then now. So if you were offered a role playing a straight deaf character, you wouldn't accept it.
speaker-1: wouldn't accept it. No, because it's not a gay Deaf co- No, not even deaf. No, because there's deaf actors out there who are brilliant, who it should be going to them. And yeah, it's their culture. It's their, you know, if I was playing a coder, which is a child of deaf adults, I could do that. Or if I was someone who was in a relationship with a deaf person.
speaker-0: Rector. or a formally hearing person.
speaker-1: What does that mean? As in they were used to hear before. Eventually, yes. Yeah. Because then they weren't, if they weren't a native ⁓ BSL user, then yes. But then going back to what you were saying before is that, and I think it's nice seeing all these dramas and things that happening with BSL, like Rose and stuff. And what would be nice would be
speaker-0: Yes, it might have lost their head.
speaker-1: to get to a point where it's not about a deaf issue anymore. Do you what I mean? Where they can play a story but actually it's not a deaf issue but it's just that they're deaf.
speaker-0: This is why it's such a rich debate, isn't it? Is that where do we put people's quality and where does identity in all its forms sit in the hierarchy of people's relationship to self and relationship to audience. It's such a fascinating debate. And I think we're on a big journey in transition with all of this stuff and it might settle in a different place in years to come. Who knows? Really interesting stuff. So take us to Smoggy Queens, talk us through that whole experience. Did they just...
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Talking about identity, did they just find every gay North East actor and get them in it?
speaker-1: I think so. They did this differently, Smuggy Queens. it was when Eurovision was at Liverpool. So I was in Liverpool and I got...
speaker-0: Yes. You were- were you on holly oaks at that point?
speaker-1: No, no. Yeah. And I got the, what's it called, audition through and I was sick. I was ill. I was ill, ill, ill in bed. Yeah. And I, we paid all this money to go to Eurovision and I would like having to drag myself there. And I was like, ⁓ God. And I had, so I did the self-tape, but like,
speaker-0: Just a fan of Eurovision. Same.
speaker-1: it was a struggle. yeah. And also I couldn't do a Middlesbrough accent because I'd forgotten how to do it. And so I did a bit of a Geordie accent anyway, so sent it off and I got it. But what they did with it was they wanted to cast it first before they took it to the BBC. And so we had a couple of days rehearsing the first episode, like a table read, and then they invited the BBC over. and then we did it and they absolutely loved it. They said it was like one of the best table reads they've ever had. And I think that why that was is because they cast it first rather than saying this is the show and then casting it. So I've been on it since day one and it's like a family. Honest to God, I've never been in a company of actors where we just
speaker-0: great.
speaker-1: or we have a WhatsApp group and we support each other. Elijah was staying with me the other day. We'll go and see everyone, whatever they're doing. We're going to see Lauren, who plays Mel in the coven. Yeah, like we just have such a lovely group and a clique.
speaker-0: A closer to a theatre ensemble. It's hard to get that on telly shows, isn't it? But when you're in a theatre company, that's often, you you might have that and maybe only for the period of the show, but it feels like this has really extended and gone beyond that and cemented itself a little bit more deeply. Cool. And so you film the second series and in the first series you're playing Phil's characters X.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah
speaker-0: I guess partly in the writing of the second series they're like, I want to keep these people around. So has your role developed a little bit? it?
speaker-1: Yeah. Well, this is the thing, because we in the original, I just assumed, well, I've broken up with him, that's it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm only going to be in one episode. Yeah. But because we all got on, Phil was like, fuck it, I'm going to like meet the right, can do what you want. But he brought everyone back. He brought me back. So it kept me in for the series. So and then made it that we worked together as well. So there was all that connection and it was not big. you know, There is really a lot of potential for bumping into each other all the time. Originally I was only meant to be one episode and then, yeah. when we'd filmed the pilot, we were all sat around the table having a drink afterwards. And I just was like, Phil, I hope this is everything you want it to be. I hope it brings you everything. And like, I wish you all the best kind of thing. Thinking that would be it, but still doing it.
speaker-0: Yeah, and it's had a great reaction for him and for the show more broadly, hasn't it? What's he like? us a bit about him and his process.
speaker-1: He's really generous. He doesn't keep the best things for him. He'll give it to other people. And yeah, just really, really lovely. There's no like, I'm the writer, I'm this, I'm that. He's just down to earth. Really lovely. Great sense of humour. And we just giggle all the time. Great. You know, what a nice place to be, like on a set where you feel free to, if you've got an idea or, you know, you can bring it up and you don't feel, you know what I mean? Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. And so how has that changed your relationship with the Northeast again? You said, I don't know how flippantly earlier, you you got the hell out of there at 17, but this is taking you back. You're about to do a show in Newcastle. Often that's the case, right? When you've got a local show, then that's going to help that audience there. How are you feeling about being back in the Northeast?
speaker-1: Yeah, not that good. Like I feel, I do feel a bit bad to be honest. I was a bit like, you know, denied and it and kind of, yeah. So it feels nice to be back and to appreciate it really for, do know what mean? Like, I don't know. It's a bit like the kind of, is it educating Rita where you kind of, she get, you know, but she can never go back. Do you know what I mean? It will never be the same, but. actually because she wanted to better herself but actually there's still there's something about it that's got heart and yeah.
speaker-0: Do think there's something about age and coming back in that? know, I mean, I moved to London, very excited about moving to London. I very much would consider London home. been here for 30 years now. ⁓ But filming Corrie in Manchester, then my family being in York, I've been going a lot more up to Yorkshire and Lancashire. My brother-in-law is a Geordie. My nephew's gone to Newcastle Uni.
speaker-1: not quite that.
speaker-0: I really, really enjoy going back these days. I enjoy the conversations you have with the cashier in boots. I enjoy thanking the bus driver. I enjoy just people interacting with strangers in all kinds of contexts. I think people are more patient. I think they're fun. I think there's a bit of a cliche, the speakers you find, but I think people really are.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: they live inclusivity in a much better way in my experience where, you know, they really are much more embracing of difference, I think, when I go back. How do you
speaker-1: that? I feel, yes there is like this culture to it which is, is, it is warmer friendly in some ways but also like I do feel like an alien when I go back. I do feel like I always stick out. Yeah. And I, and sometimes like I'll try and, not try to like change a little bit how I dress because I just, I won't wear that in Harley Paul. Yeah. I think why it, for me getting away from it was because I feel safer in London than I do in Hartlepool. yeah, you know, and I was bullied a lot at school and things and walking through the town centre can be very self-conscious, do you know what I mean? Like, just think, oh, I just, they know I don't, I'm not from here. If you know what mean, even though I am from there, but yeah. But when you get to talk to people, or go to my mom's like my mom and dad go to like a working men's club every Sunday. You know, yeah. Great. Tell me about that. Tell me about
speaker-0: For those who don't know, if you haven't grew up in the north of England, and I think it is, anyone who's seen Phoenix Nights, the Peter Kay sitcom, that is not a parody. I mean, of course it is a parody, but it is a kind of slight magnification of something that is a lot of people's experiences. My granddad used to go regularly down to Rothwell Working Men's Clubs, a whole network of social clubs essentially, principally across the north of England, but they do exist. in other parts of the country, I don't know how many around still. But they literally were a network where they would bulk buy beer so you could go and get a pint at heavily reduced prices from pubs for example. There was a network of performers, know, doing the rounds of doing very cheesy Jay MacDonald style performances, couples, someone on the keyboard, someone on the microphone, and places to hang out. And I know when my granddad became a widow, you know that was his the fulcrum and the center point of his social existence was heading down there he'd be on a table with friends and there was proper proper community about it but your mum and dad still do they still go to the work?
speaker-1: It stills go every Sunday, yeah.
speaker-0: Love that. Do you go down with them every now and then?
speaker-1: My mum's like, I've told them at you going in. I'm like, mom, like.
speaker-0: You're starving, suppose.
speaker-1: I mean, yeah, exactly. And it's like, it is a bit strange and you do feel like you've been shown off and yeah, it's like, and so, you know, there'll be, you know, packets of crisps and they open it for the table, you know what mean? And my mom brings, she'll have cooked, so she'll have brought like corned beef slice and stuff like that. you know, quiche. She'll have made a quiche or whatever and there'll be a turn on, you know, a band. It's a performer. Yeah, yeah, and then you know the bingo bingo and they've got like six bingo boards Yeah, dappers, but two of their dappers and they're literally it's like a machine Wow, it's watching something just in awe of like wow watch this go. Yeah. Yeah
speaker-0: You must be right at home here in the stage-dry authentic clubhouse. This is like home from home. How cool. I love that. I love that. It's so nostalgic to me and I think it speaks that sort of sense of community. And of course, whilst you might, you know, feel a little bit of an alien in the North East, you do find home from home by attending Greg's bakery quite frequently, don't you? Where did your obsession with Greg's come from? Is it just being a North East fire? You kind of really owned this.
speaker-1: Yes, no-
speaker-0: Of all the people I know, you're obsessed with Greggs, aren't you?
speaker-1: I want to be the face of Greg's. I'm going to change my name because I've seen it descend the country. It's followed me. Yeah, it basically followed me. So the first time I saw it in London, was like, ⁓ my God, like, wow. And whoever's doing the marketing on it and behind it, yeah, they're really like, wow. And of course you get different things up north that you don't get down here as well, you know.
speaker-0: Yes, yes.
speaker-1: corned beef, pasties, get pies up there, stotty cakes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's right.
speaker-0: good. Love it. And I reference in the introduction that when I did my self tapes for Corrie, the first I did on my own and then when they asked me to do more I had to do like four scenes and normally when you're doing a self tape we talked about this Jack and I but you know you need to recruit someone to come and help you do it and you know I'm fortunate I live with two mates who are actors but they were both away so normally we can all service each other's self tape needs. But everyone was away, I called some other friends and I was like, do you know what? Peter would be great at this. And I called you in and bribed you with some Greg's vouchers. I know you would have done it free, but I bought you some Greg's vouchers to come round and help read in those scenes for me. And you did such a great job, which got me the gig. So I'm entirely grateful. I want 10 % Yes, with sausage rolls for that. How was your experience in Southland when you were doing Hollyoaks?
speaker-1: Yeah, it was good. it was a bit of an experience because I got the self-tape through for Hollyoaks for this character and I did it. And then my friend, do know Alan Turkington? Yes. He messaged me, he was like, will you help me with the self-tape? I've got it for Hollyoaks. And I was like, and I said to David, my ex, was like, what do I do? Like, I've got this, you know, I mean, for me, it's not a problem because I'm not.
speaker-0: Yes, yeah.
speaker-1: I'm not this thing of like, oh, they're going to take my role or whatever. It's not my role. And of course I want to get it, but like, if I don't get it, I them, my friend to get it. You know what I mean? So I went around and I said, look, Alan, I'm going to be really straight with you. I'm up for the same role as well. He said, really? said, yeah. I said, but I've done myself tape and I've sent it off. said, okay, well, if you've done that, then it's fine. So I helped him with his self tape. Yeah. And then sabotage.
speaker-0: Thank
speaker-1: Saturday, we both got recalls. So we both went to the recall in London together. Again, in prep, going through the scene before with each other. Then we both got chemistry reads. So we both had to travel all the way to Liverpool on the same train, everything like, and we just, was nice actually, because it was a way of keeping each other company and taking our minds off it. also, do want to go over the scene? Right, let's do it. Let's be there for each other. And then there was only three of us in there. So we're like, okay, it could be, you know. And then I didn't get it and he didn't get it. So we're like, ⁓ it must be the other person. But it wasn't even the other person. David Ames got it. It wasn't even there, but like he must have filmed it another day. And so the good thing was is that... Holyoaks, like they loved our auditions so much that they actually wrote as both characters within the storyline. Yeah. So, and I was only meant to be in a couple of episodes and it ended up like expanding a year over like the whole storyline. Yeah. So yeah.
speaker-0: It's so interesting because I also went into Liverpool for that part. Yeah. And that was on the back of Corey, after Corey. And I didn't do a great job. remember not quite. Well, it was really weird. I remember my experience like having spent, you know, 18 months in Salford in the Corey studios. went to Liverpool to Lime Street Pictures where Hollyoaks is filmed and it all just felt a little bit. just not quite as good, you know, because it's a sort of old converter building and Corrie's well, only a years old, the new set in Salford, so the green room and the dressing rooms and the canteen is fantastic and a real centre for the whole production and everything and the production offices all come onto each other and I remember turning up in Liverpool to go meet the casting director and... just when I think the canteen's a bit rubbish and it's a bit cold here and it all feels like an old school so I just got very snobby in my head and I think that must have played through subtly into what I did and I feel like Peter and the cast director just didn't quite like what I'd done. Yes, I messed that up as well I think. But it's so funny and then when I found out David Ames got it, who I know as well, I know you know as well.
speaker-1: Yeah
speaker-0: I was like, ⁓ my god, it's such a lincestuous world, then you rocked up on it. And actually what they do, and this is very common and it's actually happening in my storyline now, they've of, they pull back on a bit of story and they're now delivering through a different character like three years later. And things evolve and change all the time. so I think that also speaks to this idea of any younger actors listening is that go in, and I got this advice from one of the directors actually, I was being really faithful to the scripts in Cory that weren't that dynamic because they were really struggling to know where this character was fitting because they changed the storyline arc. And he was like, go and make it your own. The writers will respond to you if you go in and do something. And that was such a foreign idea to me. And I felt like I didn't know where to take it actually. But I think it's really interesting if you get an opportunity in these things and your background has been theatre. you want to come in and the writer is the thing and you want to be faithful to the part and you want to give it over to them. But in telly, I don't think it works like that. The writers will respond to you much, more. And so I think that's a lesson for me.
speaker-1: Yeah, because I think if you in come on with a strong commitment of a strong character then eventually they will start to hear that character and how they Speak and join a mean and they'll start writing like, you know cat from EastEnders They know exactly how cat will respond. Yeah, she's you know the mean and yeah and it is like we're told in drama schools because you work on these amazing texts and you Chekhov Shakespeare and all these, you know mammoths and stuff and you know, to honor that because it's the Bible and to not change anything. And so when you work on soaps, these are constantly changing, adapting, even on the day sometimes it's changed.
speaker-0: And there isn't one voice. This is like, you know, the scripts are coming through and there are like eight or nine writers that they're using. So they all have to pick up from each other. So actually the only constant in that is you. So I think you've got to grab that moment much, more.
speaker-1: Directors, the directors change and everything. yeah, ⁓ so like I remember you can change bits, that's okay. Like as in like little tiny things, you know, if you want to change a word, like a very specific word, then you'd ask the director and he'd say yes or no, or they'd say yes or no. And then if you wanted to change a sentence, then you'd go, okay, let's check with the right room. Let's call them up and then they'll either green light it or not. And they'll come back to the yes or no.
speaker-0: Or if you've got a certain profile within a soap opera and you haven't learnt the lines, then you can just argue your case for a change, not because it's right or because the writer wants something, just because of your first force of personality. The fact they want an easy life. So that's the other way to do it, but I never felt able to do that. I was so diligent. knew every ready word and every possibility, but not always the case.
speaker-1: Yes No Yeah, I remember we like, teched a scene before lunch and then we had lunch, came back and this other actor had rewritten the scene and he went, um, so this is what I'm going to say. And he'd totally taken all my lines away. And I was like, yeah. And I'm like, this, like, I don't have many anyway. So please don't make me like redundant in this scene. Do you know what mean? And it was just. It was like, ⁓ is anyone going to call this out? Of course, no one is going to say anything. So that was a bit of a, it was hard because you were like, ⁓ wow. Like you don't think, of course to me, it's really important that I say this line. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, that was the tricky. ⁓
speaker-0: I'm just not that person, but I'm going, maybe that's what comes with ego and comfort and overtime, I don't know.
speaker-1: I think like Smoggy Queens, right? We all come together and everyone wants to do the best job ever. Like we're only here for a limited time. We're all excited. We're doing this for the first, not first time, but you know what I mean? Kind of everything's new where when you've been in a soap for so long, it's just another day and it's just a job. There's not that excitement. So when you're a new person coming in and you're bubbly nervous excited and you're hit with you know you don't really care or I don't know there's a difference.
speaker-0: Now, you wouldn't know from listening to this episode, but this is also a sports podcast, Do you go to any sport? Have you been to any big sporting arenas in your life? Have you ever had that sort of theatre of sport experience?
speaker-1: I've been to Wembley ⁓
speaker-0: It doesn't. Are there any big sports fans in the cast? Is Mark Benton a sports fan?
speaker-1: ⁓ he doesn't talk to me. No, you can't touch him. I'm not allowed to touch him. ⁓ I think there's a few Middlesbrough fans in there. Yes, I they've been to see a few Middlesbrough matches. I mean, my dad was a really big footballer when I was younger. wanted to play. Yeah, he wanted to be goalie and he got not sectioned. That's not the right word. What's the word when you're like recruited?
speaker-0: Sections. Sections. You haven't made the squad, here's a home for mental health.
speaker-1: You know. And he wanted me to be a footballer, I think. And he gave me a pair of football boots when I was about six. And I put them on and they made a clippy clopping sound on E-high heels. And I think that's when they knew he might be gay. And all I wanted to do was take the front stud out so I had like a cheeky kitten heel. My mum used to have her own netball team.
speaker-0: Yes, great. Well, I appreciate you really scraping the barrel to try and make some link here, but I think we'll just leave it there. That is great. Brilliant. What a great chat. I really love that. So Smog Queen, if you haven't watched it, go watch it on iPlayer. And you said earlier, and feel free not to answer this question, in relation to the gym, and I said, you know, would you not go for the Blue Weeks now? You said, no, the things are a little bit different.
speaker-1: Hahaha
speaker-0: What's shifting in your mind at the minute? you feeling just different about life?
speaker-1: Yeah, lot of changes are happening personally, like separated from my husband for 12 years. There's a lot of, I think I was doing a lot of things for other people in a sense, you know, and now I'm at a point where I'm not doing that anymore. But it's interesting because I'm clocking it, like, hang on, I would do it for other people, but why would I not do it for myself? And so that's an interesting thing to explore. relationship with myself dynamic to take to my therapist you know so yeah and also winter and yeah and so like it's things have been up and down yeah and ⁓ yeah
speaker-0: Well I think that's brilliant and I think a really great part of what it is to keep growing and maturing as a person I definitely know I've had ⁓ certain little key markers in my life where, for whatever reason, be driven by circumstance or yourself and you make a ship and things really get thrown up in the air and land in different places. I think they're great opportunities for growth and, you know, coming out of a long relationship is always inevitably going to prompt that. But all the very, very best of luck in whatever this next phase brings and I love the fact that you're embracing it and stepping toward it.
speaker-1: I'm excited because it's the unknown as much as it's scary. It's like Yeah, but it's exciting at the same time. Yeah
speaker-0: brilliant well let's tuck into this bit of quiche that your mum sent and we'll watch some old repeat thanks for some repeats of Spoggy Queens thanks for coming and really appreciate it
speaker-1: So, thank you.
