Tanaya: On the Evolving Traditions podcast, we welcome a wide range of guests and perspectives, and what they share doesn't always reflect our own views. Our intention is always to spark thought and respectful discussion, never to offend. In today's episode, we're talking about parenting, a subject that looks different for every family. There are many approaches to parenting shaped by our values, experiences, circumstances, and traditions. The perspectives shared may not apply to every family or situation. For guidance specific to your own life, please consult a qualified professional.
Tanaya & Matt: Well, hello, friends, truth seekers, skeptics, and the quietly inquisitive. You're listening to the Evolving Traditions podcast, where we sit down with the wisdom we've inherited and consider how it speaks to us, sometimes awkwardly, sometimes beautifully, in the world we inhabit today. I'm Matt Dyktynski and I'm here with my co-host Tanaya Ti'en Hello, Tanaya Hello, everyone. Yes, today we are talking about something that pretty much touches all of us. Whether we're raising kids ourselves, whether we were parented in ways that we are still unpacking in therapy, or whether we are just part of the big messy social world that shapes how children grow up. Because parenting is one of those things everyone has an opinion on. And yet maybe never before has it felt so loaded. So public, so picked apart, and honestly, so very exhausting. It is exhausting. It really,
Clare: Okay.
Tanaya & Matt: really is exhausting. Well, to help us wade into all of that, our guest today is Clare Christie. Clare has spent more than 20 years working alongside children, parents, and families as a counselor, parenting educator and lecturer. Her work is grounded in helping families build strong relationships through communication. attachment and emotional connection. And what I really love, Clare, is that you bring both deep professional experience and a kind of grounded humanity to this conversation, which is handy because today we are diving into how parenting has evolved across generations, what children actually need, and why modern parenting can feel both better informed than ever before and somehow more overwhelming than ever before. So Clare, welcome.
Clare: Thank you for having me, I'm excited.
Tanaya & Matt: Well, we're excited to have you. I mean, let's face it, according to the Bible, Adam and Eve were the first parents and they stuffed up their kids and we've been doing it ever since. Is that true?
Clare: It look, it's tricky, you know, there's so much more information out there now than ever before. so much more
Tanaya & Matt: Clare, we are really glad you're here because this is a huge topic. Parenting sits in this wild crossroads of culture, psychology, relationships, economics, identity, gender, politics, all of it. And yet underneath all that complexity are these really simple questions. How do we raise kids well? What do children actually need? And why can it feel so hard even when we love them to bits?
Clare: Yeah. Well yeah, it's it's a minefield out there, you know, and when you're thinking about globalization and you're thinking about society and culture, it's vast. And part of my study was in anthropology, which always looks at things in context. parenting in different cultures is different, it's evolved into How we sleep with our kids, how we feed our kids, how we respond to our kids. And what kids actually need is really simple. I think it's
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: it's a lot more simple than we've made it. But parents are so anxious and so hard on themselves because it's evolved into something I think, It's very child centric rather than,
Tanaya & Matt: Yes. Yeah.
Clare: we centric in terms of looking at the whole family and what the whole family needs. But I think part of that is because we're raising kids in what would have been a village that used to raise the kids. Now we're doing it in isolation with very little resources and more expectations. So what children actually need is quite simple. It you know boils down to years and years of research into relationships and attachment based research that children just need connection and they need to feel safe and they need to feel secure. And they need to feel like the people around them taking care of them are strong enough and wise enough and know enough to get them into adulthood effectively. And actually that doesn't really take much at all, but we've been convinced that we need so much more. it's not as complex as it's been made out through all of the pressures and the expectations and social media and the internet and all of the books and the parenting experts bombard us with all these things we need to do,
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah, I mean, look, there's so many things that we're going to unpack already from what you've just said. But what we like to start with is a question that we give to all of our guests, and that is for you to delve back into your childhood and share with us the first piece of wisdom that you remember getting from your parents and how has that played out? Has it been helpful? to you in your life or has it indeed been a hindrance?
Clare: Well, it's a great question because there's a couple actually. The first one is not so great. The piece of wisdom that I got growing up from my parents was that the world would be a better place maybe if I wasn't in it, in terms of that I was in the way, that I wasn't really wanted, that I was kind of a nuisance. But then the other piece of wisdom that I got from my granddad, who my grandparents raised me till I was seven was I can't swear on this, can I? But it was bleep them if they can't take a joke. And that's always been my thing is to, you know, try and use humour humour is always the thing that's got me through the difficult times, I think. So that's that's the
Tanaya & Matt: I mean I
Clare: wisdom.
Tanaya & Matt: I you know didn't obviously that's quite quite confronting to hear that first piece of Well it's certainly not wisdom, is it? How how have you how
Clare: Mm.
Tanaya & Matt: have you processed that through through your life?
Clare: A lot of therapy and a lot of money and a lot of books and a lot of reading. No, I think it's just that as you get older, I think you get wiser yourself and you sort of go, you know, the people who raised me were raised by people who didn't know the best themselves. They were wartime babies. You know, in
Tanaya & Matt: Yes. Yes.
Clare: the era when my mum had me it was the sixties and she was terrified of being a single mum, you know, so
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: that that all influenced how maybe what got passed down to me in terms of the thought processes. So it's a
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: one of my biggest lessons in life was to not take things personally. In
Tanaya & Matt: yeah, yeah. I mean gosh, parenting has really changed so much over time. I mean, we've come from that old school, you know, children should be seen and not heard era through through the days of corporal punishment, caning, strapping, belts, wooden spoons, rulers, to you know, public shaming, soap in the mouth. I mean, you know, remember standing in the corner at primary school. I remember that back at
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: primary school. And and I think, for many of us now, looking back, much of that just feels completely brutal. So, I
Clare: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya & Matt: mean, why do you think we humans and parents specifically reached for those kind of methods for so long? And I mean, there may well be people. listening or maybe they're not listening but maybe they're out there right now, still doing that today. and you know, I I know in some cultures that is very much the case.
Clare: Yeah. And look, I think when you're looking at parenting, you're looking at education, you look at different, things within society, that they're always contextual. You know, things evolve
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: into what's happening at the time, whether it's politically, socially, educationally, financially, and I think that sort of authoritarian style parenting where children were seen as something that needed to be controlled. was just very much a a reflection of the values and the knowledge and the perception of what was happening in that society at that time because in other cultures it wasn't. so
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: in other cultures children weren't seen as something that needed to be controlled. it evolved out of some other difficulty. I think the Victorian era where it was all about, prim and proper and rules
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: and you know the adults were in charge and you know, children should be seen and not heard, speak when you're spoken to. I think that all came out of that era. And then the
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: reaction to that in the sort of 1960s, the hippie revolution, the social revolution was about, you know, maybe children had more power and control and they had more rights and the human rights movement that I think that shifted things to where we are more now. but it's all contextual depending on what's going on in society at the time.
Tanaya & Matt: I've heard you talk about other other cultures and are there any sort of interesting examples that you can call to mind of parenting techniques in other cultures that have really resonated with you
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: or indeed that you think, wow, I'm glad we don't do that.
Clare: Well, yeah, maybe there's some practices where they file your teeth down when you become a teenager. I'm glad I'm glad we don't do that. But then
Tanaya & Matt: Right, right. Sure, sure, sure.
Clare: other practices, for example, in the vast majority of cultures, children co-sleep with their parents. and in Western society, we're very much about keeping children in a a cot or a bed that's separate from their parents. And now we're sort of moving back closer based on research about co regulation and how parents regulate the child's heartbeat and you know, when you bring a child to your chest after they're born, it's meant to be best practice now, the skin to skin contact. So Yeah, there's things that I think we've changed and then we're moving back towards based on research. But yeah, there's some things smacking, punishment, humiliation, all of those things that maybe they're still practiced in other cultures they they don't suit my values.
Tanaya & Matt: No. Yeah, in in one of our last episodes, because we often weave yogic wisdom into these conversations and we were talking about the yama of ahimsa, non-violence, non-harm, and talking about how harm is not only physical punishment, it might not just be of a physical nature, it it may well be in the words we say, and you know, I'm thinking of those fear-based disciplines where kids are told things like, I'm gonna send you to an orphanage, or, I mean, I've got a vague memory of that being said you know, I've heard that at some point in my childhood, or, I'm gonna send you off to live with such and such who may be your worst nightmare. So
Clare: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya & Matt: do you think some of those older methods that we know very well from back in the day do you think that they may still in our modern society still be alive and well today but just maybe dressed up a little bit differently? Have you seen it in your travels as a as a parenting
Clare: Not yeah, I do, but I I tend to see it more in education you know, this idea of discipline that we now call it positive discipline, but to me it's still kind of punishment or put downs or intimidation disguised as positive discipline, and it just has the same feel to me. So, rather than smacking a kid or yelling at them or saying those scary things like you're gonna go to an orphanage. Now it's recommended that you stare a child out or you stand very close behind them. You know, proximity that you you stand, behind their shoulder and just stand there until they change their behaviour. But that still feels quite intimidating to me. But I think it's partly like in education and in families, it's that those things to me come about because the fundamental understanding of what kids need, which is that connection isn't fully understood yet by some people,
Tanaya & Matt: Yes, I mean I I still meet people who believe in corporal punishment,
Clare: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya & Matt: who believe that much like other members of the animal kingdom, particularly primates, who if a if a child's about to or a baby gorilla is about to touch something dangerous that a slap on the hand or whatever, a a quick
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: shock is the only way to educate them that this is not a good thing to do.
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: and I don't wanna necessarily put those people down, but how how would you talk to someone like that and and do you disagree with that? And if so, how would you describe a different way of approaching that?
Clare: Yeah. I mean, fundamentally when I'm working with families or parents, whether I disagree or not isn't the issue. It's about
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: what they need to understand for themselves to do better. when I'm working with families, I'm always looking about what they would like to do better and exploring what they think the impact is based on their upbringing and their values. Because nobody's wrong. We're all just different.
Tanaya & Matt: Yes, yes, yes.
Clare: I'm I'm cautious about using the word good, bad, wrong, right, because you know, if it's abusive, it's wrong.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: But if you're doing it because everyone's always done it and you think it's the right thing to do, it doesn't necessarily mean that the intent is awful. So I think we've evolved in in the sense that our intention towards children's changed a little bit, but I also think it's got little bit confused that it's gone a bit too far towards, you know, treating children like little royal ornaments that are gonna break
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: and therefore we've got to, do everything that we don't discipline children. And I don't mean discipline as in physical punishment, I mean teach them discipline as in good, bad, right, wrong within society. Does that make sense?
Tanaya & Matt: Mm mm. Yeah, it does. And I I get it that it is a very nuanced thing. And I guess these days we legislate because perhaps the worst perpetrators of these sorts of things need to know that it's not acceptable.
Clare: Yeah. Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: and so that's why we have to have kind of black and white boundaries on those things. But I I can remember getting a smack on the bum in public at a party by my mum, by my dad, in fact probably by one of their friends, because
Clare: Mm.
Tanaya & Matt: they caught me doing something and it would have been, considered to be part of the village doing what the village does.
Clare: Yeah. and the line, where's the line in terms of if I've got a small child and they're in danger and they're gonna run out onto a busy road, I'm gonna grab them and pull them back and that might hurt them.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: But if I just did that for no reason, I would hurt them and it would be a different, it would be more harmful because that
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: it wasn't to protect them or it wasn't, I've you know slapped my son's hand away from a hot pan when he was
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: little because the alternative is am I gonna just go, he needs to learn a lesson from
Tanaya & Matt: He has to learn. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I ask you, because I've seen this, I think we've all seen this at least once in our life, where you've been at a shopping centre and there's a screaming kid and you see the parent grabbing the arm quite violently and pulling
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: that kid out in a very harmful way. And the kids
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: trailing behind having their their arm, practically pulled out of the socket. how would you deal with that situation? What would you say to that parent?
Clare: so in my head I'm imagining the context, so when I'm working with families, I'm always looking at the context, always. So who they're with, where they are and what's going on inside of them at the time. And all of those things influence that. So I'm always guessing, that parent in the shopping centre, what might they be feeling as a result of their child acting up or Misbehaving's the term use that we generally only use with children. My husband misbehaved at the shopping centre, but we'll say my child misbehaved. so that that parent I imagine is feeling embarrassed, they're feeling
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: like everyone's judging them, they're feeling like they don't know what to do, but they should know what to do, and so they'll lash out and they're thinking if I can stop the child from doing what they're doing. all that goes away. So then I work with
Tanaya & Matt: Yes, yes.
Clare: that parent on that perception, that feeling of judgment and that feeling, it's not okay to hurt your child, but what was going on that led to that. And the understanding, I think, some shifts shifts the projection onto the child as the problem and they start to go, what's going on for me? What was happening for me in that moment? If they've got the capacity
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: to do that.
Tanaya & Matt: So it might give them a bit more permission to just pause and be with that screaming child and sort of come down to its level and and not worry so much about
Clare: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya & Matt: the judgment that's going on around them, but to actually
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: see what the child's needs are in that moment and somehow talk
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: them through it.
Clare: Yeah. And sometimes you just need to remove the child from the environment that's overstimulating them or causing them an issue because
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: the environment might be the problem. Or it might
Tanaya & Matt: Hmm.
Clare: be who else is there might be the problem. You know, they might it just might be overs overstimulating. But yeah, by the parent reflecting and becoming more aware of what's going on for them, they don't blame the child for how they're feeling.
Tanaya & Matt: it may well be what the child had for breakfast that morning. You know, maybe maybe it had a big bag of lollies. But I mean that that Yeah. And that that idea
Clare: Who who knows? Yeah. Who knows? Sugar. Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: of judgment, I mean that's certainly something that you'll hear parents talking about often. And I think we're all of the generation that I'm sure people were still judging each other's parenting, but it it wasn't so apparent. you know, you weren't being judged necessarily for what you put in your child's lunchbox or whatever. And that that level of judgment seems to have gone through the roof. Is that,
Clare: Mm.
Tanaya & Matt: if we're talking about the evolution of parenting, is that part of the evolution, is that evolving in a good way? You know, they say you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs. Will that eventually lead to a better outcome in parenting? And how do you think parenting is evolving?
Clare: Yeah. Well I think my concern is that it's oversaturated. You know, like when something becomes oversaturated, it takes a while for it to drain out. And I think it you
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: know, the self-help world has become completely oversaturated with information. Experts, research science, social media influences, all that stuff that's out there. Which is, I think, designed to help people is actually making them even more anxious because everyone wants to get it right, everyone wants to be seen to be getting it right. And in all of my years of experience, there's no right way to parent. There's no right way to do anything really unless it's science based. But you know, because everyone's so different, Yeah, I guess I'm really worried that people they're so unkind to themselves, they're so stressed, they want to get it right, you know they want to get their kid right so that they look right. And I think that just creates a lot of anxiety. The the rise in anxiety is is massive in, the mental health sphere, that people are more anxious and that that's a concern
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: for me.
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah, look, I think looking out in the parenting landscape, from what I've observed, there seems to be two different bodies of perspective. There seems to be the group of people that assume that they have absolutely discovered the right way of parenting and
Clare: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya & Matt: And they absolutely have the right way. And then there's that group of us who are really just know and admit and accept that we're grasping at straws and we really have we really have no
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: idea. And we really do need the village. And where is the village? You know, we're sort
Clare: Yeah. Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: of left to do it all on our own. And I and I know for me, because I never thought I would be a A mum at one point in my life, and then all of a sudden I was a mum, and I was very much open to that idea of the village, and I was inviting that to my friends and my family, you know, bring on the village because I absolutely found myself clawing my way through parenting. So, it's great to hear your perspective that. if I'm hearing you right, you're saying that there's not really one universally correct model of parenting.
Clare: No, because it's different globally, I mean, society's evolved in terms of I guess the conditions around parenting. You know, we've got two people, both parents working, two incomes, families are much more diverse, you know, same sex families, sole parent families, how much people earn, all of that changes, but what children need doesn't really change. So how can there be just one way to parent when everything is so diverse? You know, like I thought I had the answer. Honestly, Tanaya I thought I had the answer. When my son was born, all I knew was I'm not going to parent like my parents parented me, I'm going to do the opposite. Which was equally as weird, because then I was just
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: kind of, this sort of laissez-faire do whatever you want, darling, kind of parent. And I thought that discipline and boundaries meant cruelty. You know,
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: I thought that if I was putting in boundaries and I was being firm with my son, that somehow that was me being abusive because you
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: know my experience of strict authoritarian parenting wasn't very kind, so I was too kind and somehow I bounced back, you know, there's a spectrum of parenting, and I think anywhere in this middle bit is alright. You know, if you're too if you're
Tanaya & Matt: Well, you know
Clare: too mean or you're too weak, it's not the best, but somewhere in the middle where we all sit is
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: acceptable, I think.
Tanaya & Matt: Well, we we both have met your beautiful son and he's a lovely human being, so you clearly did something right. eventually. But you know, I I think
Clare: Eventually.
Tanaya & Matt: there's one thing that is probably the elephant in the room and parenting probably for thousands of years has essentially
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: been the same, you know, if it wasn't the Beatles parents angry at their children for listening to the Beatles. They were angry at their children for listening to Beethoven or whoever Mozart or whoever the rock star of the day was. But there's
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: no doubt about it for me anyway, that the digital revolution has put in a new set of circumstances that perhaps none of us actually know what the right way to handle it is because we we have no precedent for it. instinctively I feel that I want them to get off screens and I want them to do this and I want them to do that. But that may not even be a reality anymore, and who's to say that they're not right in the way they're living their
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: lives?
Clare: and again it's all to do with context, it's just this is what the world is becoming and how do we adapt and evolve as humans to fit in with that without doing, as little harm as possible. And in the same way, like you're saying, oh you're listening to headbanging music, or you're listening to the Beatles, or your skirt's too short, or your hair's too spiky, people resist change. And so I think we're in a process of adapting to change, like massive technological change at the moment with technology, social media, the internet, which we didn't have before. So you're right. This is new. So there's no expert out there that can actually tell you what you need to be doing because we don't actually know, because we don't have enough
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: evidence yet of of the impact.
Tanaya & Matt: what are your instincts telling you about this new revolution?
Clare: My my instinct is I don't think there's much we can do about it and it will be what it will be. I
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: I I think we are gonna be evolving into a new kind of human that, doesn't know what it's like to spend a lot of time in nature or doesn't know what it's like to feel their feet on the earth much because they're in front of screens and you just have to walk past a restaurant. and everybody sitting around the tables looking at their phone and they're not having
Tanaya & Matt: Mm mm.
Clare: conversations, I don't think that's gonna change in a hurry. but how do we manage to instill some values or discipline in our kids through parenting where they still have a sense of the village or the community, because I think this is the kind of paradox that I see is that in in one way we've become so much more focused on the importance of connection. We're learning about how important it is for humans to be connected and to have good conversation and good relationships. But at the same time everyone's becoming so much more individual. You know, the
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: the entrepreneur, the rise of the individual, and and I I'm not sure how we can navigate that in this kind of technological age, but my hope is that down the track, maybe not in our generation, but that something happens where they go, we've made a mistake, we need to go back to connection or not, who knows?
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, when you hear that, it takes a village, what does that actually mean in real terms now? What has been lost? I mean, I have my own ideas. I
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: think most of us are in the ever rising cost of living. Parents are needing to work two three jobs now just to make ends meet. And of course,
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: as a result, we spend less time with our children. but then the village feels like it's thinning, the village as we have known it is is no longer there.
Clare: Absolutely. Yeah. it's like this kind of we're coming to this understanding that it, you hear it bandied about all the time. It takes a village to raise a child. And so now people are expected to raise a child, but with the resources of a single household and where's the village? You know, we don't necessarily live close to our families. We
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: create our village and I think we create our tribe with the people that we choose rather than the village actually existing in reality because, we build houses that we don't even see our neighbours. Children don't know their neighbours. we drive into that garage
Tanaya & Matt: Mm. Yeah.
Clare: and we go in the front door and we close the doors and for a lot of people that's their existence if they're not going
Tanaya & Matt: Hmm.
Clare: to work or going to the shops or the fear of children getting hurt, playing out in the street, actually the statistics from the last time I looked at it was a few years ago when I was looking at, the dangers for children. They're actually safer now than they've ever been in terms of
Tanaya & Matt: Which is sort of that means we're doing our job, right? In a in a weird way too. Yeah.
Clare: Well yeah, because yeah, because well we're more aware, we talk about things more, we're more, switched on, there's more security, there's more cameras, there's more, knowledge, there's more media that that actually if someone doesn't do the right thing, we find out quite quickly and it gets exposed. And so, there's more out there to protect children, more knowledge, more laws, more politics, more stuff, but they're not leaving the house because we're still scared that they're gonna get
Tanaya & Matt: Mm mm.
Clare: hurt and we're still trying to protect them and keep them safe. But they're how do children learn about the dangers of the world if they're not not exposed to them as in pushed into them, but they're not aware of them and, that they're not they lose their own sense of their gut feeling. it sounds
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: like a f bit of a woo-woo thing, but you know, having that gut feeling about something not being safe, you can't get that from the telly. I don't think.
Tanaya & Matt: No. So what's what's your feeling in you know, obviously this year Australia became the first place to legislate about age limits for social media. and, I guess we'll we'll see how that works. What's your feeling on that? Is that something that is feasible? is it feasible for parents to say you're not gonna have a smart device until you're fifteen? I mean, it sounds like a great Great thing to say, but is it actually feasible in the modern world when their entire
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: education seems to be online?
Clare: It's like in a sense, the thing that just popped into my head then is like if you give someone something sugary and delicious and they get a taste for it and then you say to them you can't have it anymore. It's a bit like that with the internet, you know, that social media kids are already on there and then to take it away from them. I'm only saying that because the majority of people that I've come into contact with since that legislation, the children have found ways around it. Yeah, because they're not going to give that up. So it might actually be okay for children coming through that
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: haven't had the delicious sugary treat. that to give up. but that so so if they've never had it, you know, like we never had it. We
Tanaya & Matt: No.
Clare: didn't know what it was. Our life was fine without it. but now that people have had a taste of it, I think it's gonna take a whole other generation of kids coming through that haven't been allowed to sign up for it in the first place
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: till we know whether that works or not.
Tanaya & Matt: Uh-huh. Our daughter's just in the process of writing an essay on the book nineteen eighty four.
Clare: yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: And the whole theme of big brother watching us and and she was writing about how that exact thing you'd take power freedom away from people and the human desire is to want it more so the human desire
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: is to rebel and to find ways to resist and that seems
Clare: Resist, right? Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: to be a part of human nature
Clare: Mm.
Tanaya & Matt: Within us, you know, we all have this deep desire for freedom. but if
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: you didn't know what it was, if you've never, if you haven't, for that generation that hasn't been
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: on the internet yet, will they care? Because they don't know what it is. And if
Clare: I don't know. Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: you don't know what freedom is, do you miss it? Yeah.
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: I mean, that's an existential question for another podcast.
Clare: It is, isn't it?
Tanaya & Matt: so I mean let's strip it back to absolute basics here. What in your opinion, what do children actually need the most?
Clare: Children need to learn how to be adults. I mean, fundamentally, that's because everyone becomes an adult. So how
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: do we help our children to become an adult? Well, we show them what an adult looks like. We behave like we want them to behave as adults, we train them in the art of adulting. and you know whatever that is in your particular value, belief, if you want them to become a religious adult, if that's important, something you value, you would train them in that. It's like any
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: kind of, the art of the art of being
Tanaya & Matt: Doesn't that
Clare: human.
Tanaya & Matt: doesn't that take their childhood away though? if our job as parents is to, train our children to be adults, what about their childhood? that sense of play and and innocence and
Clare: Yeah. But well when you look at children play, when you really observe children playing, they're playing at being adults.
Tanaya & Matt: That's true, yes.
Clare: You know, they're making things, they're building things, they're yeah. They're actually
Tanaya & Matt: Shops and yes, yes, yeah, yeah.
Clare: they're practicing being adults and the play part of it is so important and I think a bit of that gets lost, in all of this technology.
Tanaya & Matt: So perhaps adults so perhaps we need to flip the phrase and adults need to be more like children adulting.
Clare: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: Perhaps we need to be more like adulting children with that sense of playfulness.
Clare: Yeah, well yeah, because children are looking to us all the time. They're looking at, how we communicate, how we live, how we eat, how we drink, how we treat our friends, how we resolve conflict, how we sleep, how we use a knife and
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: fork or chopsticks or you know, they're watching us all the time because they're going to evolve into larger humans. And so I think, if you want your children to learn how to be a village, you have to be the village.
Tanaya & Matt: I mean, I'm sure everyone hearing that is going through what I'm going through at the moment, which is, as someone that likes to think of themselves as a reasonable human being, reasonably decent human being. And I hope I've passed that on to my stepdaughter, but also just all of the moments that I've behaved in such a immature and childish way, in terms of communication with my wife or the way I've dealt with situations and had tantrums and whatnot and just go, no.
Clare: but I think that's a normal part of growing up anyway, isn't it? Is learning through
Tanaya & Matt: Nothing.
Clare: the learning through the difficult times. And I think, if you're talking about role modeling for kids, it's not so much that you make mistakes, it's where do you go from there? you know, like you think in our generation, we'd might see parents having like a massive fight and they'd always like, don't have a fight in front of the kids. And then you'd wake up in the morning and they'd magically resolved it, but you didn't know how.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: You had no idea how that got resolved. and so things like that where you're teaching kids how to resolve conflict, that's something that I think is useful to be modelled in in relationships is that you show your children how you resolve it rather than make it a secret thing that gets sorted.
Tanaya & Matt: Okay. Okay. So so if they've seen the the you
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: you believe that everything should be out in the open and on the table. within within within yeah. Yeah, within reason.
Clare: Well, I mean, within within reason. But yeah, so like what you're what you're talking about, Matt, going, there's been times where I've lost it and I've had a tantrum. That if you can talk to a child and go, this is what happened, this is what was going on and I apologise if I made you in any way feel like that was your fault. It was just something
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: that was going on for me and they get to see that process of self reflection and resolution.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: Rather than it being some kind of mysterious thing that happens overnight while you're sleeping, you know.
Tanaya & Matt: yeah, that's great. I like that. So, what I'm hearing you say is that children don't need to see parents being perfect as much as they need
Clare: Hold on.
Tanaya & Matt: parents to be present with them and talk them through the fumblings that we all make in a calm way.
Clare: Yeah, being human. you're not being raised by robots who are perfect. You're being raised by people who are just like you in the society that you live in, and you learn how to reflect and fix things and obviously parents are bigger and stronger and more experienced at life.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: hopefully, to be able to pass on down that experience and that knowledge and that wisdom you were talking about wisdom. You know, we started out with that question about wisdom. unfortunately for some people, like myself, the wisdom that was passed on wasn't necessarily wise. But if
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: if you're thinking about, what are my children learning about how do I talk about money? How do I talk about intimacy? what am I showing my children that love looks like? What am I showing my children that kindness
Tanaya & Matt: Mm, mm.
Clare: looks like? That's much more important, I think, than teaching my children about what's naughty and what's, those things come, I think, with age, you learn that through. school and your peers and working with other people and you interacting about what what the social acceptable norms are in terms of relationships, but you're the primary demonstrator of being a grown up human for your children.
Tanaya & Matt: Hm.
Clare: So, when you're talking about evolution, that's changed as well because, dads are home much more than there were diets changed, cookings changed, we've got Uber Eats, you know, before everyone would cook all their meals, but maybe not so much
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: now. So that there's definitely changes, but we still fundamentally have to teach our children what it is to be a reasonably functioning grown-up in a world that's a little bit chaotic sometimes.
Tanaya & Matt: And I'm sure most people set out with the best of intentions
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: and want to raise well-rounded and healthy children. Are there any little sort of life hacks,
Clare: Mm.
Tanaya & Matt: things that we could avoid in the way we speak to our children, perhaps the way we start sentences with them, that people can try and very easily integrate into their lives.
Clare: I mean, my favorite one is, you know, when you're having a conversation with someone, don't say listen to me, say tell me more. Cause you
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: know, that that you start those conversations with curiosity about why someone's saying what they're saying, because we take everything so personally. So my life hack is that I'm always curious about when someone's speaking, particularly children. They're saying so much more about themselves and what they need than they are about anything they're actually speaking about. So, you know, to teach if a child says, I hate my teacher, that statement to me is a little bit irrelevant because I'm thinking, what's happened? What do they need that they've not got that is making them think that if the teacher did something differently, life would be better? so I'm always trying to dig down a bit more, So I wouldn't ever say, What did you do? Or what did you say?
Tanaya & Matt: Uh-huh.
Clare: What did the teacher say? The details to me are kind of secondary to like just going, okay, tell me more. Because I'm not gonna,
Tanaya & Matt: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Clare: I'm not gonna jump in and assume that I know everything from that one statement. I need to know more before I can make any informed decision or be wise or give advice. to that child because I'm not gonna assume anything.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm. So open questions. O open
Clare: Open questions and curiosity and even in the way that I say things, so if I'm saying something about the child and what they need to do, to me that's not necessarily honest or self-disclosing in terms of role modeling. So if I'm like, you need to pick your bag up, do they? Why am I asking that? I prefer.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Clare: a clean space or I'm worried about tripping over that. That's much more about me and what I need than what you need to do. So we just got a little
Tanaya & Matt: Right.
Clare: bit we've got a little bit backwards in how we communicate. We we try and tell people to do something because it's much less vulnerable than saying what I need.
Tanaya & Matt: Okay, so can you thrash that out for me a little bit? So say
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: say you did want your child to to clean up let's use the bag. I want you to pick up that bag because it's messy, it's in the way. how does one do that in a
Clare: Yeah, that's well that's that's much better than you need to pick your bag up. Or you're
Tanaya & Matt: Uh-huh.
Clare: lazy or you're messy or you always leave your bag lying around it. But to say, would it be possible for you to pick your bag up because I like a clean space and I don't want it sitting there is
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: n I guess that the the angle that I'm coming from in terms of communication is not to make the child feel like it's their fault that you want something.
Tanaya & Matt: Uh-huh, yes, I understand, yeah, yeah. It does, yeah.
Clare: Does that make sense? It's like I'm not blaming I'm not blaming you because I would like the bag picked up. But quite often
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah.
Clare: the way we communicate is quite blameful. you always, you never, you're so messy. We give it a label, you're rude or thoughtless.
Tanaya & Matt: that very much sounds like relationship counselling 101 as well. how to how to tame your partner. Darling, it's not
Clare: Yeah. Yes.
Tanaya & Matt: what you're doing wrong.
Clare: you know, it's nice theoretically, but we've been so ninja trained to tr tell someone to do something to get what we need rather than just
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: asking for what we need because it's so vulnerable because they might say no, you know. But if we if if we're talking
Tanaya & Matt: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Clare: about training our kids to be good humans, then how we role model That with each other and with them helps them to go, okay. So, like, you if I got, the bloody government, I hate this government. I'm saying something about the government, but actually, if I was honest, I'd be saying something about what that actually means to me. Why
Tanaya & Matt: Mmm.
Clare: am I saying that? What does it mean to me? So when I'm working with people, I'm always that's my curiousity, my little curious mind is going, If they were saying something about themselves, what might they say? And I think
Tanaya & Matt: Wow, that's really interesting.
Clare: I think that about kids as well. So when kids are going, I hate my brother, or you don't love me, or you're mean, or whatever, I'm thinking, what do they need? If they were saying
Tanaya & Matt: Kai.
Clare: something about themselves, what would they be saying? They'd be saying, I feel like you give my brother more attention and I'm a bit jealous, or
Tanaya & Matt: Mm, mm.
Clare: I don't don't feel like you care about me. Or it would be an something they'd say about themselves rather than you. So that's my evolution of parenting tip is to flip flip the script,
Tanaya & Matt: So it's it's fascinating.
Clare: yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah. So we hear a lot nowadays about co-regulation and emotional regulation. You
Clare: Mm.
Tanaya & Matt: know, from your perspective in plain language, how do children actually learn to regulate their emotions?
Clare: well I'll just give you a really simple example, right? So you're sitting there now, the roof caves in above you, and Matt, you run around screaming, my god, we're all gonna die. It's a disaster. And Tanaya you
Tanaya & Matt: You know me so well.
Clare: go, It's okay, everyone, follow me. I know what to do. Who are we gonna feel safer with?
Tanaya & Matt: Tanaya.
Clare: Possibly. so when you're co-regulating with kids and you're helping them to understand their emotions, if if I'm anxious and I'm upset and I'm worried and everyone else around me escalates, that sends a really clear message to me that this is a disaster and I should actually
Tanaya & Matt: Mm, mm.
Clare: be more upset. Like I should panic. Whereas if
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: if I'm anxious and I'm feeling worried or discombobulated and the people around me are going, It's okay, what do you need? I'll stay close to you. I'm here. And they don't escalate. That is actually co-regulation. And you know, the scientific evidence about proximity, because our hearts beat and it sends out an electromagnetic field that we're basically all sitting in each other's electromagnetic soup, you know. that
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: if I calm myself down in somebody's proximity, that can actually have a biological impact of calming them down. So when we're working with clients in counseling or in community services and people are escalating, my presence,
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: my calming presence can have an impact on calming them down. Like you would know that stuff to know with your yoga therapy and stuff about core regulation and practice. That you know,
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Clare: if a child is really, really anxious and upset and panicking, if we stay within three feet, don't have to be holding them. We don't have to be you know, some people need this space to calm down or to regulate. But like when a baby
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: cries What's the first thing we usually do with the baby? Where do we bring them to?
Tanaya & Matt: To our to our to our breasts, to our chest, to our heart space. Yeah.
Clare: To our heart. Yeah. So because that helps to regulate them. It's a co-regulation
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: biological strategy. So if we just need to bring people to our hearts metaphorically rather than biologically in terms of helping them to regulate. From everything I've seen, that works.
Tanaya & Matt: I mean you've already alluded to this and I know it's a really big question, so I don't know how much of it we can explore here, but all of us, or many of us have got some sorts of traumas that our parents may or may not have meant to to give to us. And
Clare: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya & Matt: we're, spend a lot of time worried that we're going to either inflict that on our children or spend a lot of time, you know. Clinging on for dear life, assuring ourselves that we'll never do that to our children. Y
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: how does one negotiate that? How does one navigate what they went through and how to stop doing that to you? Stop repeating those mistakes.
Clare: You're right, Matt. That's a very big question.
Tanaya & Matt: Sure, yeah.
Clare: But I th I think, well, I mean, somebody's got to be aware of that. I think they've got to know that
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: they're acting out of some, crack in their psyche or something. And a lot of people aren't aware of that. but I think if you open to The possibility that some of the things you do might not be from a conscious, a wholly conscious place, that you're willing to dive into that and do the work. but I think the most important thing is to be kind to yourself. Like we make mistakes whether we are conscious or not conscious, whether we're
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: evolved or not evolved. Like wherever we come from, we're gonna make mistakes. And the most important thing is if you if you broke if you broke an important vase, you know, something that was really important to you and it smashed into
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: a few pieces. would you panic about it or would you just carefully glue it back together? And I guess that's what we
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: need to do with ourselves. We just need to carefully glue ourselves back together sometimes, but not, smash it more. Smash
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: it more with judgment or, being mean or critical or you're not gonna smash it more, you're gonna keep the pieces that are there and put them back together and that's how I see any person evolving in a relationship, whether it's parenting or in relationship, is about how do I put it back together in a kind and sensitive and loving way without
Tanaya & Matt: And it really all comes it it comes back to self-care, doesn't it? So, how do we know what we don't know? and I know you'd be familiar with Noel Birch's conscious competence model. So coming
Clare: Yes.
Tanaya & Matt: from that place of unconscious incompetence, moving
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: through, starting to become aware of what we don't know into conscious Incompetence, and then once we have that awareness, once we're shining the light on those parts of ourselves that are causing our suffering and inflicting suffering on others, then hopefully we can move into a place of conscious competence, and the more we practice, like any muscle that we want to strengthen.
Clare: Yeah. Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: We we need to practice those skills of communication, of all of those parenting tools that we we learn and and those little techniques that we learn. The more we strengthen those neural pathways, the stronger they get until hopefully we come to the top of the pyramid and we're in that place of unconscious competence where where we're just being better on
Clare: Second age, yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: on autopilot, yeah.
Clare: Yeah. But also like I think sometimes that idea as well can become a bit of a pressure of expectation that we get to that place where you know we never stuff up because we're competent and we will always sometimes when you're sick, when you're tired, when you're you know
Tanaya & Matt: When your diet's not been good.
Clare: Exactly. You're struggling with something. There's something else going on in your life that, brings you back down to those basic needs where you've got to take care of yourself. We will stuff up in those moments. And I think it's okay to acknowledge that and go, you know what? when I'm stuffing up and I'm going against what is really important to me, it's a really good message. It's like, flag waving thing of Something's going on, I need to take care of myself because my intention's not to do that. So if I'm doing that, it's telling me something that about myself that I need to take care of. So it's just it just it's a much kinder approach than going, I've stuffed up again and I thought I was never gonna do that. And what's wrong with me? It's like, no, there will be things wrong with you.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: What do you need to do to take care of that? And that show again, like going back to what what are you showing your kids in terms of the
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: evolution of parenting is what self care looks like and not shrugging things off like it's not important, but going, I can fix that. That's something that can be fixed. Everything can be fixed.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm. Mm.
Clare: What do we need to do?
Tanaya & Matt: So are we improving as parents? I mean, we've never had more information about the way we should do it. Some I I don't know. I only work off anecdotal evidence, I have no data that maybe our children are being diagnosed with more and more things than ever before. And I don't know, maybe that's a good thing. Maybe they're receiving the care. that they need at an earlier age that we just sort of brushed under the the carpet. Do you think we're getting better at it?
Clare: I mean, I'd like to think that we're getting better at it. And I think, the data about rise in anxiety, mental health and things like that, there's also a lot more people than there used to be so the data in terms of the actual population size, I'm not sure if it's actually changed that much
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: or whether it just has the appearance of it. but I think we're definitely doing better and we're more aware. it's just that because I think we're still in a process of change and a process of adjustment and a process of adapting We're still changing. So I don't know the answer yet.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: But I think that there's much more awareness, there's much more information, there's much more stuff out there that if people want to be better parents they can. My
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: warning is, don't go too hard into thinking you need to be perfect. 'Cause that's where I think the harm comes from. If we think we need to be perfect, then that tells our kids they need to be perfect too. And maybe that's
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes.
Clare: where some of the anxiety comes from is the idea of perfection and the pressure of that. And it's not possible.
Tanaya & Matt: Well I think that's Yeah. I mean so what picture could you paint about what does good enough parenting look like?
Clare: Ha ha well if you look at, circle of security parenting and all of the attachment theory, they say that 30% connection is good enough. So if you think of your phone battery, you know when it gets to 30% and then below that it might start to go into the red. That's when
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: you need to plug it in and recharge it. So the idea that you have to be connected and present with your kids 100% of the time, it's absolute rubbish. Like it's not actually possible because I have needs as a parent, my
Tanaya & Matt: Hmm.
Clare: relationship has needs as a couple, the kids have needs as kids, but we all have to have those taken care of. So the idea that I'm giving to my kids 100% of the time, it's like a piece of pie, you know, it's like 30%. is enough for a child to feel happy, connected, content. And if we respond when they need us, I always think of you know the battery going down. Sometimes you're using your apps more, so it uses more battery. And so you have to plug it in more often. And kids are like that. You know, some days they'll need you more, some days they'll need
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: you less. so it's a bit like that. It's like if you respond to them when they actually need you, not when they're want
Tanaya & Matt: Hm.
Clare: want want want want you know, when their cups empty. That that's enough. It's just enough.
Tanaya & Matt: So what are your views on nature versus nurture and what's do you know the the most recent research on that? I remember watching that documentary on the triplets many years ago and from my memory it was nurture that turned out to be the strongest factor there.
Clare: Yeah, I think there's the biology of what makes us all human. We've all got red blood. there's the biology, but anthropology, sociology, all of that looking at culture and context, it's a lot to do with how we're raised.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: What influences the people who raised us. We'll all still, grow into a human, but how we act out the part or the roles we play or how we act out what it is to be human will be different based on how we were nurtured. So the
Tanaya & Matt: And I think there's a lot, a lot to say, about, whatever your style of parenting is, asking yourself: is this coming from a place of fear? Or is this coming from a place of some other more helpful place? because I think. when it is coming from fear, children are are so receptive to our fear and
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: to our flaws, even when they're unspoken and well, I guess because that if you're showing you're fearful of spiders, they're thinking, Well, I should be fearful of spiders too, 'cause that's a bad thing. Yeah. Yeah. In whatever that form
Clare: Spiders are dangerous. Yeah. But it
Tanaya & Matt: that takes.
Clare: I think it gets even more fundamental than that. So if a child is capable of understanding that spider and whether that spider's dangerous or not, you don't have to do anything about it. So fear
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: is contextual in terms of If you're putting your fear on a child but they're capable of working that out for themselves, then you're interfering with their learning process. Or if you're pushing
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: them out to do something that they're not quite ready to do, you're also, potentially turning them off something that that maybe they were just weren't ready for. So an example of
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: that is like a child climbing a tree and they're quite capable of climbing that tree, but you're going, be careful, be careful, be careful, because your fears getting in the way, that you're actually making them anxious about your feelings. Not about climbing the tree, because they're capable of that.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm, mm.
Clare: They're making they're anxious about your feelings, about they're gonna think about your worries. which is, you know, part of being in a relationship as well is that we care about each other, but I'm talking about how we influence, our children in terms of what you're saying about fear. our fears get in the way and stop a child from exploring or or push them out to explore when they're not actually ready, because we think they should, you know. When I was a kid. When I was a kid, I was going down
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: the shops and doing this, that and the other. So you should be. And and they're developmentally might be slightly not there yet. Yeah, so it's always about watching,
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Clare: responding to what they need at that time is much more useful, I think, than having a doctrine or a book of parenting on how to. It's like you've got the book right there in front of you. It's called Your Child. If you read
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah, and meeting them where they're at, and it's just accepting who they are as people. And if they are that kid that wants to climb the tree and they're good at it, then take a deep breath and let them do it. And and if they're
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: not, don't push them into that and accepting they're more sensitive or bookish or what Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Clare: Yeah. Go on, climb the tree. When I was yeah yeah. When I was your age, I was climbing now, yeah. Yeah. So it's it's just finding that balance of and yeah, it's good to have a challenge, but the challenge, it not beyond what you're capable of. So
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: as people grow and evolve, they're they learn their own skills and do things that they If they're not afraid and you haven't put the fear of God, I'd say that as a turn of phrase rather than actually, some religious thing
Tanaya & Matt: Mm, mm, mm.
Clare: is that, you know, that the children get get filled with fear, but it's your fear.
Tanaya & Matt: Hm.
Clare: And can they learn their own way in the world? And you know, the washing the washing gets dry. The kids grow up and despite Not too spite, but despite how we were parented, we all do our own thing anyway, eventually.
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. well I wanted to ask if there's a parent out there listening right now, just feeling exhausted over it, guilty, confused, like they're somehow getting it all wrong, what would you want them to hear?
Clare: I would say you cook, you clean, you care, you nurse, you drive, you taxi, you educate, you house, you love, you fix all of those things and you do one thing wrong, and that's what you remember. Yes.
Tanaya & Matt: it reminds me of a beautiful story that Ajahn Brahm from the Buddhist center tells about a brick wall that he was a part of building at one of the monasteries, and that he, built this brick wall, and there was one brick that was imperfect. And every time he walked past that wall, that's all he would notice. And this was a habit until, people would come through for tours and he would always be like, God, that brick, don't look at that. And then, you
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: know, at one point he realised there are, nine hundred and something other bricks around that one brick that he wasn't looking at. and I think that's a beautiful metaphor for what we all do.
Clare: Yeah, we do. and obviously the fact that we focus on it means that it's drawn our attention and it may be something that we care about enough to do something differently if we want to. But the fact is is that all that other stuff we do all day, every day, we don't give ourselves credit sometimes for that. And it gets missed because nobody sets out to hurt their kids. Not you know, maybe
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: if someone's really unwell or they're not, you know,
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: most people, most normal average humans, they love their kids and they want to raise them well and they want them to be good humans and the fact that they give themselves such a hard time when they're stuffed it up just tells me that they care a lot. But that shouldn't be the hundred percent focus of your attention. It should be about how
Tanaya & Matt: And if you could
Clare: how do I fix it? How do I make it right? How do I put that broken vase back together with
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: kindness, you know?
Tanaya & Matt: And and if you could go back to yourself, having just given birth to your beautiful son,
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: and you could talk to yourself, what would you tell
Clare: yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: that person about the journey that of parenting that was about to unfold? Would you do anything differently?
Clare: a hundred percent. But hindsight's always, a great thing. Cause I think, when I was talking earlier about how I reacted to my own upbringing, and then I raised my child as if I was raising, a little Clare again. And
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: actually sometimes missing out on what he needed because I was blinded to like, this is how you should be parented. so I think in hindsight I'd say to myself. Just read Harry, just read your son. Sort yourself out separately and get the therapy you need for yourself, but you're not you're not re raising Clare. You're raising a new human and he has different needs.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: And I'd probably be a bit firmer than I was, but the reason I wasn't so firm was also because I was damaged, you know, and I
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: was Part of me raising him was healing that damage in myself, which is not necessarily a useful tool to use your own child as kind of a but it I think that just happens naturally when you become a parent.
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: You suddenly realize what it's like to be a parent, because I also felt very forgiving of my own parents and understood the vastness of what they were going through in order to, raise me. So it it gave me some more perspective. But I think looking back I'd definitely be be a bit firmer, make him go to school when he said he didn't want to go to school. And and be much kinder to myself. Much kinder to myself. Yeah. Yeah, much.
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah, lovely, lovely. they those be my own words from a couple of episodes ago. Absolutely. I said that exact thing. That's what I would do. I'd be much kinder. And I think that's a a beautiful way to wind up this episode, Clare. Thank you. Yeah, that was awesome. So much for chatting with us today and imparting your parenting wisdom. And I know that your, your business has gone through many changes over the years. Where are you at now with your website and you know where can people find
Clare: yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: you? If if people are you available for one-to-one parenting counselling? How can people connect
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: with you?
Clare: So I don't have a website at the moment because I'm out with the old and in with the new. So I'm in the process of getting a new website built, which will be ClaireChristie.com eventually. but at the
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: moment, if somebody wants to book a session with me, I'm on LinkedIn. or I'm happy for you to put my email in the comments or set somewhere where people can know.
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Clare: get in touch with me and ask me any questions.
Tanaya & Matt: Well.
Clare: But it's been a pleasure. Thank you.
Tanaya & Matt: We will absolutely put your email in the comments. I'm sure there are lots of people out there who could use some help in the parenting department. And be kind
Clare: Yeah, everything.
Tanaya & Matt: to each other and yourself. Yes.
Clare: Yes, be kind. Be kind.
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah. Well, thank you, Clare, for being part of this conversation. May we keep honouring the wisdom we inherit while also giving ourselves permission to prune. replant and occasionally repot a few things along the way with compassion, and a little less certainty. But for now, let's keep evolving. Bye for now. Thanks, Clare.
Tanaya: before we completely sign off, here's what we have on offer right now. Now, if you've been craving deeper reconnection, with yourself, your partner, or the natural world, then a few days in one of the most healing corners of the planet, surrounded by like-hearted humans, might be exactly what you need. So join Tanaya and me from April 15th to 20th, 2027. For our next great Southern Renewal Retreat in magnificent Denmark, Western Australia. You can come solo with your significant other or with a pal or three. We'll spend five nights and six days immersed in the best that Mother Nature has to offer, returning to balance, connection, and renewal. So if you'd like to know more, message us at connect at mindbodycollective.com.au and we'll send through the details. And if you'd like to explore these conversations more deeply, You can also grab a copy of the book that has inspired many of them, Evolving Traditions, Yoga Ethics and Modern Practice. To find out more about the book, the retreat and other offerings, visit mindbodycollective.com.au.
Tanaya & Matt: Well, hello, friends, truth seekers, skeptics, and the quietly inquisitive. You're listening to the Evolving Traditions podcast, where we sit down with the wisdom we've inherited and consider how it speaks to us, sometimes awkwardly, sometimes beautifully, in the world we inhabit today. I'm Matt Dyktynski and I'm here with my co-host Tanaya Ti'en Hello, Tanaya Hello, everyone. Yes, today we are talking about something that pretty much touches all of us. Whether we're raising kids ourselves, whether we were parented in ways that we are still unpacking in therapy, or whether we are just part of the big messy social world that shapes how children grow up. Because parenting is one of those things everyone has an opinion on. And yet maybe never before has it felt so loaded. So public, so picked apart, and honestly, so very exhausting. It is exhausting. It really,
Clare: Okay.
Tanaya & Matt: really is exhausting. Well, to help us wade into all of that, our guest today is Clare Christie. Clare has spent more than 20 years working alongside children, parents, and families as a counselor, parenting educator and lecturer. Her work is grounded in helping families build strong relationships through communication. attachment and emotional connection. And what I really love, Clare, is that you bring both deep professional experience and a kind of grounded humanity to this conversation, which is handy because today we are diving into how parenting has evolved across generations, what children actually need, and why modern parenting can feel both better informed than ever before and somehow more overwhelming than ever before. So Clare, welcome.
Clare: Thank you for having me, I'm excited.
Tanaya & Matt: Well, we're excited to have you. I mean, let's face it, according to the Bible, Adam and Eve were the first parents and they stuffed up their kids and we've been doing it ever since. Is that true?
Clare: It look, it's tricky, you know, there's so much more information out there now than ever before. so much more
Tanaya & Matt: Clare, we are really glad you're here because this is a huge topic. Parenting sits in this wild crossroads of culture, psychology, relationships, economics, identity, gender, politics, all of it. And yet underneath all that complexity are these really simple questions. How do we raise kids well? What do children actually need? And why can it feel so hard even when we love them to bits?
Clare: Yeah. Well yeah, it's it's a minefield out there, you know, and when you're thinking about globalization and you're thinking about society and culture, it's vast. And part of my study was in anthropology, which always looks at things in context. parenting in different cultures is different, it's evolved into How we sleep with our kids, how we feed our kids, how we respond to our kids. And what kids actually need is really simple. I think it's
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: it's a lot more simple than we've made it. But parents are so anxious and so hard on themselves because it's evolved into something I think, It's very child centric rather than,
Tanaya & Matt: Yes. Yeah.
Clare: we centric in terms of looking at the whole family and what the whole family needs. But I think part of that is because we're raising kids in what would have been a village that used to raise the kids. Now we're doing it in isolation with very little resources and more expectations. So what children actually need is quite simple. It you know boils down to years and years of research into relationships and attachment based research that children just need connection and they need to feel safe and they need to feel secure. And they need to feel like the people around them taking care of them are strong enough and wise enough and know enough to get them into adulthood effectively. And actually that doesn't really take much at all, but we've been convinced that we need so much more. it's not as complex as it's been made out through all of the pressures and the expectations and social media and the internet and all of the books and the parenting experts bombard us with all these things we need to do,
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah, I mean, look, there's so many things that we're going to unpack already from what you've just said. But what we like to start with is a question that we give to all of our guests, and that is for you to delve back into your childhood and share with us the first piece of wisdom that you remember getting from your parents and how has that played out? Has it been helpful? to you in your life or has it indeed been a hindrance?
Clare: Well, it's a great question because there's a couple actually. The first one is not so great. The piece of wisdom that I got growing up from my parents was that the world would be a better place maybe if I wasn't in it, in terms of that I was in the way, that I wasn't really wanted, that I was kind of a nuisance. But then the other piece of wisdom that I got from my granddad, who my grandparents raised me till I was seven was I can't swear on this, can I? But it was bleep them if they can't take a joke. And that's always been my thing is to, you know, try and use humour humour is always the thing that's got me through the difficult times, I think. So that's that's the
Tanaya & Matt: I mean I
Clare: wisdom.
Tanaya & Matt: I you know didn't obviously that's quite quite confronting to hear that first piece of Well it's certainly not wisdom, is it? How how have you how
Clare: Mm.
Tanaya & Matt: have you processed that through through your life?
Clare: A lot of therapy and a lot of money and a lot of books and a lot of reading. No, I think it's just that as you get older, I think you get wiser yourself and you sort of go, you know, the people who raised me were raised by people who didn't know the best themselves. They were wartime babies. You know, in
Tanaya & Matt: Yes. Yes.
Clare: the era when my mum had me it was the sixties and she was terrified of being a single mum, you know, so
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: that that all influenced how maybe what got passed down to me in terms of the thought processes. So it's a
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: one of my biggest lessons in life was to not take things personally. In
Tanaya & Matt: yeah, yeah. I mean gosh, parenting has really changed so much over time. I mean, we've come from that old school, you know, children should be seen and not heard era through through the days of corporal punishment, caning, strapping, belts, wooden spoons, rulers, to you know, public shaming, soap in the mouth. I mean, you know, remember standing in the corner at primary school. I remember that back at
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: primary school. And and I think, for many of us now, looking back, much of that just feels completely brutal. So, I
Clare: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya & Matt: mean, why do you think we humans and parents specifically reached for those kind of methods for so long? And I mean, there may well be people. listening or maybe they're not listening but maybe they're out there right now, still doing that today. and you know, I I know in some cultures that is very much the case.
Clare: Yeah. And look, I think when you're looking at parenting, you're looking at education, you look at different, things within society, that they're always contextual. You know, things evolve
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: into what's happening at the time, whether it's politically, socially, educationally, financially, and I think that sort of authoritarian style parenting where children were seen as something that needed to be controlled. was just very much a a reflection of the values and the knowledge and the perception of what was happening in that society at that time because in other cultures it wasn't. so
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: in other cultures children weren't seen as something that needed to be controlled. it evolved out of some other difficulty. I think the Victorian era where it was all about, prim and proper and rules
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: and you know the adults were in charge and you know, children should be seen and not heard, speak when you're spoken to. I think that all came out of that era. And then the
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: reaction to that in the sort of 1960s, the hippie revolution, the social revolution was about, you know, maybe children had more power and control and they had more rights and the human rights movement that I think that shifted things to where we are more now. but it's all contextual depending on what's going on in society at the time.
Tanaya & Matt: I've heard you talk about other other cultures and are there any sort of interesting examples that you can call to mind of parenting techniques in other cultures that have really resonated with you
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: or indeed that you think, wow, I'm glad we don't do that.
Clare: Well, yeah, maybe there's some practices where they file your teeth down when you become a teenager. I'm glad I'm glad we don't do that. But then
Tanaya & Matt: Right, right. Sure, sure, sure.
Clare: other practices, for example, in the vast majority of cultures, children co-sleep with their parents. and in Western society, we're very much about keeping children in a a cot or a bed that's separate from their parents. And now we're sort of moving back closer based on research about co regulation and how parents regulate the child's heartbeat and you know, when you bring a child to your chest after they're born, it's meant to be best practice now, the skin to skin contact. So Yeah, there's things that I think we've changed and then we're moving back towards based on research. But yeah, there's some things smacking, punishment, humiliation, all of those things that maybe they're still practiced in other cultures they they don't suit my values.
Tanaya & Matt: No. Yeah, in in one of our last episodes, because we often weave yogic wisdom into these conversations and we were talking about the yama of ahimsa, non-violence, non-harm, and talking about how harm is not only physical punishment, it might not just be of a physical nature, it it may well be in the words we say, and you know, I'm thinking of those fear-based disciplines where kids are told things like, I'm gonna send you to an orphanage, or, I mean, I've got a vague memory of that being said you know, I've heard that at some point in my childhood, or, I'm gonna send you off to live with such and such who may be your worst nightmare. So
Clare: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya & Matt: do you think some of those older methods that we know very well from back in the day do you think that they may still in our modern society still be alive and well today but just maybe dressed up a little bit differently? Have you seen it in your travels as a as a parenting
Clare: Not yeah, I do, but I I tend to see it more in education you know, this idea of discipline that we now call it positive discipline, but to me it's still kind of punishment or put downs or intimidation disguised as positive discipline, and it just has the same feel to me. So, rather than smacking a kid or yelling at them or saying those scary things like you're gonna go to an orphanage. Now it's recommended that you stare a child out or you stand very close behind them. You know, proximity that you you stand, behind their shoulder and just stand there until they change their behaviour. But that still feels quite intimidating to me. But I think it's partly like in education and in families, it's that those things to me come about because the fundamental understanding of what kids need, which is that connection isn't fully understood yet by some people,
Tanaya & Matt: Yes, I mean I I still meet people who believe in corporal punishment,
Clare: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya & Matt: who believe that much like other members of the animal kingdom, particularly primates, who if a if a child's about to or a baby gorilla is about to touch something dangerous that a slap on the hand or whatever, a a quick
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: shock is the only way to educate them that this is not a good thing to do.
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: and I don't wanna necessarily put those people down, but how how would you talk to someone like that and and do you disagree with that? And if so, how would you describe a different way of approaching that?
Clare: Yeah. I mean, fundamentally when I'm working with families or parents, whether I disagree or not isn't the issue. It's about
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: what they need to understand for themselves to do better. when I'm working with families, I'm always looking about what they would like to do better and exploring what they think the impact is based on their upbringing and their values. Because nobody's wrong. We're all just different.
Tanaya & Matt: Yes, yes, yes.
Clare: I'm I'm cautious about using the word good, bad, wrong, right, because you know, if it's abusive, it's wrong.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: But if you're doing it because everyone's always done it and you think it's the right thing to do, it doesn't necessarily mean that the intent is awful. So I think we've evolved in in the sense that our intention towards children's changed a little bit, but I also think it's got little bit confused that it's gone a bit too far towards, you know, treating children like little royal ornaments that are gonna break
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: and therefore we've got to, do everything that we don't discipline children. And I don't mean discipline as in physical punishment, I mean teach them discipline as in good, bad, right, wrong within society. Does that make sense?
Tanaya & Matt: Mm mm. Yeah, it does. And I I get it that it is a very nuanced thing. And I guess these days we legislate because perhaps the worst perpetrators of these sorts of things need to know that it's not acceptable.
Clare: Yeah. Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: and so that's why we have to have kind of black and white boundaries on those things. But I I can remember getting a smack on the bum in public at a party by my mum, by my dad, in fact probably by one of their friends, because
Clare: Mm.
Tanaya & Matt: they caught me doing something and it would have been, considered to be part of the village doing what the village does.
Clare: Yeah. and the line, where's the line in terms of if I've got a small child and they're in danger and they're gonna run out onto a busy road, I'm gonna grab them and pull them back and that might hurt them.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: But if I just did that for no reason, I would hurt them and it would be a different, it would be more harmful because that
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: it wasn't to protect them or it wasn't, I've you know slapped my son's hand away from a hot pan when he was
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: little because the alternative is am I gonna just go, he needs to learn a lesson from
Tanaya & Matt: He has to learn. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I ask you, because I've seen this, I think we've all seen this at least once in our life, where you've been at a shopping centre and there's a screaming kid and you see the parent grabbing the arm quite violently and pulling
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: that kid out in a very harmful way. And the kids
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: trailing behind having their their arm, practically pulled out of the socket. how would you deal with that situation? What would you say to that parent?
Clare: so in my head I'm imagining the context, so when I'm working with families, I'm always looking at the context, always. So who they're with, where they are and what's going on inside of them at the time. And all of those things influence that. So I'm always guessing, that parent in the shopping centre, what might they be feeling as a result of their child acting up or Misbehaving's the term use that we generally only use with children. My husband misbehaved at the shopping centre, but we'll say my child misbehaved. so that that parent I imagine is feeling embarrassed, they're feeling
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: like everyone's judging them, they're feeling like they don't know what to do, but they should know what to do, and so they'll lash out and they're thinking if I can stop the child from doing what they're doing. all that goes away. So then I work with
Tanaya & Matt: Yes, yes.
Clare: that parent on that perception, that feeling of judgment and that feeling, it's not okay to hurt your child, but what was going on that led to that. And the understanding, I think, some shifts shifts the projection onto the child as the problem and they start to go, what's going on for me? What was happening for me in that moment? If they've got the capacity
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: to do that.
Tanaya & Matt: So it might give them a bit more permission to just pause and be with that screaming child and sort of come down to its level and and not worry so much about
Clare: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya & Matt: the judgment that's going on around them, but to actually
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: see what the child's needs are in that moment and somehow talk
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: them through it.
Clare: Yeah. And sometimes you just need to remove the child from the environment that's overstimulating them or causing them an issue because
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: the environment might be the problem. Or it might
Tanaya & Matt: Hmm.
Clare: be who else is there might be the problem. You know, they might it just might be overs overstimulating. But yeah, by the parent reflecting and becoming more aware of what's going on for them, they don't blame the child for how they're feeling.
Tanaya & Matt: it may well be what the child had for breakfast that morning. You know, maybe maybe it had a big bag of lollies. But I mean that that Yeah. And that that idea
Clare: Who who knows? Yeah. Who knows? Sugar. Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: of judgment, I mean that's certainly something that you'll hear parents talking about often. And I think we're all of the generation that I'm sure people were still judging each other's parenting, but it it wasn't so apparent. you know, you weren't being judged necessarily for what you put in your child's lunchbox or whatever. And that that level of judgment seems to have gone through the roof. Is that,
Clare: Mm.
Tanaya & Matt: if we're talking about the evolution of parenting, is that part of the evolution, is that evolving in a good way? You know, they say you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs. Will that eventually lead to a better outcome in parenting? And how do you think parenting is evolving?
Clare: Yeah. Well I think my concern is that it's oversaturated. You know, like when something becomes oversaturated, it takes a while for it to drain out. And I think it you
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: know, the self-help world has become completely oversaturated with information. Experts, research science, social media influences, all that stuff that's out there. Which is, I think, designed to help people is actually making them even more anxious because everyone wants to get it right, everyone wants to be seen to be getting it right. And in all of my years of experience, there's no right way to parent. There's no right way to do anything really unless it's science based. But you know, because everyone's so different, Yeah, I guess I'm really worried that people they're so unkind to themselves, they're so stressed, they want to get it right, you know they want to get their kid right so that they look right. And I think that just creates a lot of anxiety. The the rise in anxiety is is massive in, the mental health sphere, that people are more anxious and that that's a concern
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: for me.
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah, look, I think looking out in the parenting landscape, from what I've observed, there seems to be two different bodies of perspective. There seems to be the group of people that assume that they have absolutely discovered the right way of parenting and
Clare: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya & Matt: And they absolutely have the right way. And then there's that group of us who are really just know and admit and accept that we're grasping at straws and we really have we really have no
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: idea. And we really do need the village. And where is the village? You know, we're sort
Clare: Yeah. Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: of left to do it all on our own. And I and I know for me, because I never thought I would be a A mum at one point in my life, and then all of a sudden I was a mum, and I was very much open to that idea of the village, and I was inviting that to my friends and my family, you know, bring on the village because I absolutely found myself clawing my way through parenting. So, it's great to hear your perspective that. if I'm hearing you right, you're saying that there's not really one universally correct model of parenting.
Clare: No, because it's different globally, I mean, society's evolved in terms of I guess the conditions around parenting. You know, we've got two people, both parents working, two incomes, families are much more diverse, you know, same sex families, sole parent families, how much people earn, all of that changes, but what children need doesn't really change. So how can there be just one way to parent when everything is so diverse? You know, like I thought I had the answer. Honestly, Tanaya I thought I had the answer. When my son was born, all I knew was I'm not going to parent like my parents parented me, I'm going to do the opposite. Which was equally as weird, because then I was just
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: kind of, this sort of laissez-faire do whatever you want, darling, kind of parent. And I thought that discipline and boundaries meant cruelty. You know,
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: I thought that if I was putting in boundaries and I was being firm with my son, that somehow that was me being abusive because you
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: know my experience of strict authoritarian parenting wasn't very kind, so I was too kind and somehow I bounced back, you know, there's a spectrum of parenting, and I think anywhere in this middle bit is alright. You know, if you're too if you're
Tanaya & Matt: Well, you know
Clare: too mean or you're too weak, it's not the best, but somewhere in the middle where we all sit is
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: acceptable, I think.
Tanaya & Matt: Well, we we both have met your beautiful son and he's a lovely human being, so you clearly did something right. eventually. But you know, I I think
Clare: Eventually.
Tanaya & Matt: there's one thing that is probably the elephant in the room and parenting probably for thousands of years has essentially
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: been the same, you know, if it wasn't the Beatles parents angry at their children for listening to the Beatles. They were angry at their children for listening to Beethoven or whoever Mozart or whoever the rock star of the day was. But there's
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: no doubt about it for me anyway, that the digital revolution has put in a new set of circumstances that perhaps none of us actually know what the right way to handle it is because we we have no precedent for it. instinctively I feel that I want them to get off screens and I want them to do this and I want them to do that. But that may not even be a reality anymore, and who's to say that they're not right in the way they're living their
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: lives?
Clare: and again it's all to do with context, it's just this is what the world is becoming and how do we adapt and evolve as humans to fit in with that without doing, as little harm as possible. And in the same way, like you're saying, oh you're listening to headbanging music, or you're listening to the Beatles, or your skirt's too short, or your hair's too spiky, people resist change. And so I think we're in a process of adapting to change, like massive technological change at the moment with technology, social media, the internet, which we didn't have before. So you're right. This is new. So there's no expert out there that can actually tell you what you need to be doing because we don't actually know, because we don't have enough
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: evidence yet of of the impact.
Tanaya & Matt: what are your instincts telling you about this new revolution?
Clare: My my instinct is I don't think there's much we can do about it and it will be what it will be. I
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: I I think we are gonna be evolving into a new kind of human that, doesn't know what it's like to spend a lot of time in nature or doesn't know what it's like to feel their feet on the earth much because they're in front of screens and you just have to walk past a restaurant. and everybody sitting around the tables looking at their phone and they're not having
Tanaya & Matt: Mm mm.
Clare: conversations, I don't think that's gonna change in a hurry. but how do we manage to instill some values or discipline in our kids through parenting where they still have a sense of the village or the community, because I think this is the kind of paradox that I see is that in in one way we've become so much more focused on the importance of connection. We're learning about how important it is for humans to be connected and to have good conversation and good relationships. But at the same time everyone's becoming so much more individual. You know, the
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: the entrepreneur, the rise of the individual, and and I I'm not sure how we can navigate that in this kind of technological age, but my hope is that down the track, maybe not in our generation, but that something happens where they go, we've made a mistake, we need to go back to connection or not, who knows?
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, when you hear that, it takes a village, what does that actually mean in real terms now? What has been lost? I mean, I have my own ideas. I
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: think most of us are in the ever rising cost of living. Parents are needing to work two three jobs now just to make ends meet. And of course,
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: as a result, we spend less time with our children. but then the village feels like it's thinning, the village as we have known it is is no longer there.
Clare: Absolutely. Yeah. it's like this kind of we're coming to this understanding that it, you hear it bandied about all the time. It takes a village to raise a child. And so now people are expected to raise a child, but with the resources of a single household and where's the village? You know, we don't necessarily live close to our families. We
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: create our village and I think we create our tribe with the people that we choose rather than the village actually existing in reality because, we build houses that we don't even see our neighbours. Children don't know their neighbours. we drive into that garage
Tanaya & Matt: Mm. Yeah.
Clare: and we go in the front door and we close the doors and for a lot of people that's their existence if they're not going
Tanaya & Matt: Hmm.
Clare: to work or going to the shops or the fear of children getting hurt, playing out in the street, actually the statistics from the last time I looked at it was a few years ago when I was looking at, the dangers for children. They're actually safer now than they've ever been in terms of
Tanaya & Matt: Which is sort of that means we're doing our job, right? In a in a weird way too. Yeah.
Clare: Well yeah, because yeah, because well we're more aware, we talk about things more, we're more, switched on, there's more security, there's more cameras, there's more, knowledge, there's more media that that actually if someone doesn't do the right thing, we find out quite quickly and it gets exposed. And so, there's more out there to protect children, more knowledge, more laws, more politics, more stuff, but they're not leaving the house because we're still scared that they're gonna get
Tanaya & Matt: Mm mm.
Clare: hurt and we're still trying to protect them and keep them safe. But they're how do children learn about the dangers of the world if they're not not exposed to them as in pushed into them, but they're not aware of them and, that they're not they lose their own sense of their gut feeling. it sounds
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: like a f bit of a woo-woo thing, but you know, having that gut feeling about something not being safe, you can't get that from the telly. I don't think.
Tanaya & Matt: No. So what's what's your feeling in you know, obviously this year Australia became the first place to legislate about age limits for social media. and, I guess we'll we'll see how that works. What's your feeling on that? Is that something that is feasible? is it feasible for parents to say you're not gonna have a smart device until you're fifteen? I mean, it sounds like a great Great thing to say, but is it actually feasible in the modern world when their entire
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: education seems to be online?
Clare: It's like in a sense, the thing that just popped into my head then is like if you give someone something sugary and delicious and they get a taste for it and then you say to them you can't have it anymore. It's a bit like that with the internet, you know, that social media kids are already on there and then to take it away from them. I'm only saying that because the majority of people that I've come into contact with since that legislation, the children have found ways around it. Yeah, because they're not going to give that up. So it might actually be okay for children coming through that
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: haven't had the delicious sugary treat. that to give up. but that so so if they've never had it, you know, like we never had it. We
Tanaya & Matt: No.
Clare: didn't know what it was. Our life was fine without it. but now that people have had a taste of it, I think it's gonna take a whole other generation of kids coming through that haven't been allowed to sign up for it in the first place
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: till we know whether that works or not.
Tanaya & Matt: Uh-huh. Our daughter's just in the process of writing an essay on the book nineteen eighty four.
Clare: yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: And the whole theme of big brother watching us and and she was writing about how that exact thing you'd take power freedom away from people and the human desire is to want it more so the human desire
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: is to rebel and to find ways to resist and that seems
Clare: Resist, right? Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: to be a part of human nature
Clare: Mm.
Tanaya & Matt: Within us, you know, we all have this deep desire for freedom. but if
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: you didn't know what it was, if you've never, if you haven't, for that generation that hasn't been
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: on the internet yet, will they care? Because they don't know what it is. And if
Clare: I don't know. Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: you don't know what freedom is, do you miss it? Yeah.
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: I mean, that's an existential question for another podcast.
Clare: It is, isn't it?
Tanaya & Matt: so I mean let's strip it back to absolute basics here. What in your opinion, what do children actually need the most?
Clare: Children need to learn how to be adults. I mean, fundamentally, that's because everyone becomes an adult. So how
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: do we help our children to become an adult? Well, we show them what an adult looks like. We behave like we want them to behave as adults, we train them in the art of adulting. and you know whatever that is in your particular value, belief, if you want them to become a religious adult, if that's important, something you value, you would train them in that. It's like any
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: kind of, the art of the art of being
Tanaya & Matt: Doesn't that
Clare: human.
Tanaya & Matt: doesn't that take their childhood away though? if our job as parents is to, train our children to be adults, what about their childhood? that sense of play and and innocence and
Clare: Yeah. But well when you look at children play, when you really observe children playing, they're playing at being adults.
Tanaya & Matt: That's true, yes.
Clare: You know, they're making things, they're building things, they're yeah. They're actually
Tanaya & Matt: Shops and yes, yes, yeah, yeah.
Clare: they're practicing being adults and the play part of it is so important and I think a bit of that gets lost, in all of this technology.
Tanaya & Matt: So perhaps adults so perhaps we need to flip the phrase and adults need to be more like children adulting.
Clare: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: Perhaps we need to be more like adulting children with that sense of playfulness.
Clare: Yeah, well yeah, because children are looking to us all the time. They're looking at, how we communicate, how we live, how we eat, how we drink, how we treat our friends, how we resolve conflict, how we sleep, how we use a knife and
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: fork or chopsticks or you know, they're watching us all the time because they're going to evolve into larger humans. And so I think, if you want your children to learn how to be a village, you have to be the village.
Tanaya & Matt: I mean, I'm sure everyone hearing that is going through what I'm going through at the moment, which is, as someone that likes to think of themselves as a reasonable human being, reasonably decent human being. And I hope I've passed that on to my stepdaughter, but also just all of the moments that I've behaved in such a immature and childish way, in terms of communication with my wife or the way I've dealt with situations and had tantrums and whatnot and just go, no.
Clare: but I think that's a normal part of growing up anyway, isn't it? Is learning through
Tanaya & Matt: Nothing.
Clare: the learning through the difficult times. And I think, if you're talking about role modeling for kids, it's not so much that you make mistakes, it's where do you go from there? you know, like you think in our generation, we'd might see parents having like a massive fight and they'd always like, don't have a fight in front of the kids. And then you'd wake up in the morning and they'd magically resolved it, but you didn't know how.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: You had no idea how that got resolved. and so things like that where you're teaching kids how to resolve conflict, that's something that I think is useful to be modelled in in relationships is that you show your children how you resolve it rather than make it a secret thing that gets sorted.
Tanaya & Matt: Okay. Okay. So so if they've seen the the you
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: you believe that everything should be out in the open and on the table. within within within yeah. Yeah, within reason.
Clare: Well, I mean, within within reason. But yeah, so like what you're what you're talking about, Matt, going, there's been times where I've lost it and I've had a tantrum. That if you can talk to a child and go, this is what happened, this is what was going on and I apologise if I made you in any way feel like that was your fault. It was just something
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: that was going on for me and they get to see that process of self reflection and resolution.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: Rather than it being some kind of mysterious thing that happens overnight while you're sleeping, you know.
Tanaya & Matt: yeah, that's great. I like that. So, what I'm hearing you say is that children don't need to see parents being perfect as much as they need
Clare: Hold on.
Tanaya & Matt: parents to be present with them and talk them through the fumblings that we all make in a calm way.
Clare: Yeah, being human. you're not being raised by robots who are perfect. You're being raised by people who are just like you in the society that you live in, and you learn how to reflect and fix things and obviously parents are bigger and stronger and more experienced at life.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: hopefully, to be able to pass on down that experience and that knowledge and that wisdom you were talking about wisdom. You know, we started out with that question about wisdom. unfortunately for some people, like myself, the wisdom that was passed on wasn't necessarily wise. But if
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: if you're thinking about, what are my children learning about how do I talk about money? How do I talk about intimacy? what am I showing my children that love looks like? What am I showing my children that kindness
Tanaya & Matt: Mm, mm.
Clare: looks like? That's much more important, I think, than teaching my children about what's naughty and what's, those things come, I think, with age, you learn that through. school and your peers and working with other people and you interacting about what what the social acceptable norms are in terms of relationships, but you're the primary demonstrator of being a grown up human for your children.
Tanaya & Matt: Hm.
Clare: So, when you're talking about evolution, that's changed as well because, dads are home much more than there were diets changed, cookings changed, we've got Uber Eats, you know, before everyone would cook all their meals, but maybe not so much
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: now. So that there's definitely changes, but we still fundamentally have to teach our children what it is to be a reasonably functioning grown-up in a world that's a little bit chaotic sometimes.
Tanaya & Matt: And I'm sure most people set out with the best of intentions
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: and want to raise well-rounded and healthy children. Are there any little sort of life hacks,
Clare: Mm.
Tanaya & Matt: things that we could avoid in the way we speak to our children, perhaps the way we start sentences with them, that people can try and very easily integrate into their lives.
Clare: I mean, my favorite one is, you know, when you're having a conversation with someone, don't say listen to me, say tell me more. Cause you
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: know, that that you start those conversations with curiosity about why someone's saying what they're saying, because we take everything so personally. So my life hack is that I'm always curious about when someone's speaking, particularly children. They're saying so much more about themselves and what they need than they are about anything they're actually speaking about. So, you know, to teach if a child says, I hate my teacher, that statement to me is a little bit irrelevant because I'm thinking, what's happened? What do they need that they've not got that is making them think that if the teacher did something differently, life would be better? so I'm always trying to dig down a bit more, So I wouldn't ever say, What did you do? Or what did you say?
Tanaya & Matt: Uh-huh.
Clare: What did the teacher say? The details to me are kind of secondary to like just going, okay, tell me more. Because I'm not gonna,
Tanaya & Matt: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Clare: I'm not gonna jump in and assume that I know everything from that one statement. I need to know more before I can make any informed decision or be wise or give advice. to that child because I'm not gonna assume anything.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm. So open questions. O open
Clare: Open questions and curiosity and even in the way that I say things, so if I'm saying something about the child and what they need to do, to me that's not necessarily honest or self-disclosing in terms of role modeling. So if I'm like, you need to pick your bag up, do they? Why am I asking that? I prefer.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Clare: a clean space or I'm worried about tripping over that. That's much more about me and what I need than what you need to do. So we just got a little
Tanaya & Matt: Right.
Clare: bit we've got a little bit backwards in how we communicate. We we try and tell people to do something because it's much less vulnerable than saying what I need.
Tanaya & Matt: Okay, so can you thrash that out for me a little bit? So say
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: say you did want your child to to clean up let's use the bag. I want you to pick up that bag because it's messy, it's in the way. how does one do that in a
Clare: Yeah, that's well that's that's much better than you need to pick your bag up. Or you're
Tanaya & Matt: Uh-huh.
Clare: lazy or you're messy or you always leave your bag lying around it. But to say, would it be possible for you to pick your bag up because I like a clean space and I don't want it sitting there is
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: n I guess that the the angle that I'm coming from in terms of communication is not to make the child feel like it's their fault that you want something.
Tanaya & Matt: Uh-huh, yes, I understand, yeah, yeah. It does, yeah.
Clare: Does that make sense? It's like I'm not blaming I'm not blaming you because I would like the bag picked up. But quite often
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah.
Clare: the way we communicate is quite blameful. you always, you never, you're so messy. We give it a label, you're rude or thoughtless.
Tanaya & Matt: that very much sounds like relationship counselling 101 as well. how to how to tame your partner. Darling, it's not
Clare: Yeah. Yes.
Tanaya & Matt: what you're doing wrong.
Clare: you know, it's nice theoretically, but we've been so ninja trained to tr tell someone to do something to get what we need rather than just
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: asking for what we need because it's so vulnerable because they might say no, you know. But if we if if we're talking
Tanaya & Matt: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Clare: about training our kids to be good humans, then how we role model That with each other and with them helps them to go, okay. So, like, you if I got, the bloody government, I hate this government. I'm saying something about the government, but actually, if I was honest, I'd be saying something about what that actually means to me. Why
Tanaya & Matt: Mmm.
Clare: am I saying that? What does it mean to me? So when I'm working with people, I'm always that's my curiousity, my little curious mind is going, If they were saying something about themselves, what might they say? And I think
Tanaya & Matt: Wow, that's really interesting.
Clare: I think that about kids as well. So when kids are going, I hate my brother, or you don't love me, or you're mean, or whatever, I'm thinking, what do they need? If they were saying
Tanaya & Matt: Kai.
Clare: something about themselves, what would they be saying? They'd be saying, I feel like you give my brother more attention and I'm a bit jealous, or
Tanaya & Matt: Mm, mm.
Clare: I don't don't feel like you care about me. Or it would be an something they'd say about themselves rather than you. So that's my evolution of parenting tip is to flip flip the script,
Tanaya & Matt: So it's it's fascinating.
Clare: yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah. So we hear a lot nowadays about co-regulation and emotional regulation. You
Clare: Mm.
Tanaya & Matt: know, from your perspective in plain language, how do children actually learn to regulate their emotions?
Clare: well I'll just give you a really simple example, right? So you're sitting there now, the roof caves in above you, and Matt, you run around screaming, my god, we're all gonna die. It's a disaster. And Tanaya you
Tanaya & Matt: You know me so well.
Clare: go, It's okay, everyone, follow me. I know what to do. Who are we gonna feel safer with?
Tanaya & Matt: Tanaya.
Clare: Possibly. so when you're co-regulating with kids and you're helping them to understand their emotions, if if I'm anxious and I'm upset and I'm worried and everyone else around me escalates, that sends a really clear message to me that this is a disaster and I should actually
Tanaya & Matt: Mm, mm.
Clare: be more upset. Like I should panic. Whereas if
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: if I'm anxious and I'm feeling worried or discombobulated and the people around me are going, It's okay, what do you need? I'll stay close to you. I'm here. And they don't escalate. That is actually co-regulation. And you know, the scientific evidence about proximity, because our hearts beat and it sends out an electromagnetic field that we're basically all sitting in each other's electromagnetic soup, you know. that
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: if I calm myself down in somebody's proximity, that can actually have a biological impact of calming them down. So when we're working with clients in counseling or in community services and people are escalating, my presence,
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: my calming presence can have an impact on calming them down. Like you would know that stuff to know with your yoga therapy and stuff about core regulation and practice. That you know,
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Clare: if a child is really, really anxious and upset and panicking, if we stay within three feet, don't have to be holding them. We don't have to be you know, some people need this space to calm down or to regulate. But like when a baby
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: cries What's the first thing we usually do with the baby? Where do we bring them to?
Tanaya & Matt: To our to our to our breasts, to our chest, to our heart space. Yeah.
Clare: To our heart. Yeah. So because that helps to regulate them. It's a co-regulation
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: biological strategy. So if we just need to bring people to our hearts metaphorically rather than biologically in terms of helping them to regulate. From everything I've seen, that works.
Tanaya & Matt: I mean you've already alluded to this and I know it's a really big question, so I don't know how much of it we can explore here, but all of us, or many of us have got some sorts of traumas that our parents may or may not have meant to to give to us. And
Clare: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya & Matt: we're, spend a lot of time worried that we're going to either inflict that on our children or spend a lot of time, you know. Clinging on for dear life, assuring ourselves that we'll never do that to our children. Y
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: how does one negotiate that? How does one navigate what they went through and how to stop doing that to you? Stop repeating those mistakes.
Clare: You're right, Matt. That's a very big question.
Tanaya & Matt: Sure, yeah.
Clare: But I th I think, well, I mean, somebody's got to be aware of that. I think they've got to know that
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: they're acting out of some, crack in their psyche or something. And a lot of people aren't aware of that. but I think if you open to The possibility that some of the things you do might not be from a conscious, a wholly conscious place, that you're willing to dive into that and do the work. but I think the most important thing is to be kind to yourself. Like we make mistakes whether we are conscious or not conscious, whether we're
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: evolved or not evolved. Like wherever we come from, we're gonna make mistakes. And the most important thing is if you if you broke if you broke an important vase, you know, something that was really important to you and it smashed into
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: a few pieces. would you panic about it or would you just carefully glue it back together? And I guess that's what we
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: need to do with ourselves. We just need to carefully glue ourselves back together sometimes, but not, smash it more. Smash
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: it more with judgment or, being mean or critical or you're not gonna smash it more, you're gonna keep the pieces that are there and put them back together and that's how I see any person evolving in a relationship, whether it's parenting or in relationship, is about how do I put it back together in a kind and sensitive and loving way without
Tanaya & Matt: And it really all comes it it comes back to self-care, doesn't it? So, how do we know what we don't know? and I know you'd be familiar with Noel Birch's conscious competence model. So coming
Clare: Yes.
Tanaya & Matt: from that place of unconscious incompetence, moving
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: through, starting to become aware of what we don't know into conscious Incompetence, and then once we have that awareness, once we're shining the light on those parts of ourselves that are causing our suffering and inflicting suffering on others, then hopefully we can move into a place of conscious competence, and the more we practice, like any muscle that we want to strengthen.
Clare: Yeah. Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: We we need to practice those skills of communication, of all of those parenting tools that we we learn and and those little techniques that we learn. The more we strengthen those neural pathways, the stronger they get until hopefully we come to the top of the pyramid and we're in that place of unconscious competence where where we're just being better on
Clare: Second age, yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: on autopilot, yeah.
Clare: Yeah. But also like I think sometimes that idea as well can become a bit of a pressure of expectation that we get to that place where you know we never stuff up because we're competent and we will always sometimes when you're sick, when you're tired, when you're you know
Tanaya & Matt: When your diet's not been good.
Clare: Exactly. You're struggling with something. There's something else going on in your life that, brings you back down to those basic needs where you've got to take care of yourself. We will stuff up in those moments. And I think it's okay to acknowledge that and go, you know what? when I'm stuffing up and I'm going against what is really important to me, it's a really good message. It's like, flag waving thing of Something's going on, I need to take care of myself because my intention's not to do that. So if I'm doing that, it's telling me something that about myself that I need to take care of. So it's just it just it's a much kinder approach than going, I've stuffed up again and I thought I was never gonna do that. And what's wrong with me? It's like, no, there will be things wrong with you.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: What do you need to do to take care of that? And that show again, like going back to what what are you showing your kids in terms of the
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: evolution of parenting is what self care looks like and not shrugging things off like it's not important, but going, I can fix that. That's something that can be fixed. Everything can be fixed.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm. Mm.
Clare: What do we need to do?
Tanaya & Matt: So are we improving as parents? I mean, we've never had more information about the way we should do it. Some I I don't know. I only work off anecdotal evidence, I have no data that maybe our children are being diagnosed with more and more things than ever before. And I don't know, maybe that's a good thing. Maybe they're receiving the care. that they need at an earlier age that we just sort of brushed under the the carpet. Do you think we're getting better at it?
Clare: I mean, I'd like to think that we're getting better at it. And I think, the data about rise in anxiety, mental health and things like that, there's also a lot more people than there used to be so the data in terms of the actual population size, I'm not sure if it's actually changed that much
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: or whether it just has the appearance of it. but I think we're definitely doing better and we're more aware. it's just that because I think we're still in a process of change and a process of adjustment and a process of adapting We're still changing. So I don't know the answer yet.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: But I think that there's much more awareness, there's much more information, there's much more stuff out there that if people want to be better parents they can. My
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: warning is, don't go too hard into thinking you need to be perfect. 'Cause that's where I think the harm comes from. If we think we need to be perfect, then that tells our kids they need to be perfect too. And maybe that's
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes.
Clare: where some of the anxiety comes from is the idea of perfection and the pressure of that. And it's not possible.
Tanaya & Matt: Well I think that's Yeah. I mean so what picture could you paint about what does good enough parenting look like?
Clare: Ha ha well if you look at, circle of security parenting and all of the attachment theory, they say that 30% connection is good enough. So if you think of your phone battery, you know when it gets to 30% and then below that it might start to go into the red. That's when
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: you need to plug it in and recharge it. So the idea that you have to be connected and present with your kids 100% of the time, it's absolute rubbish. Like it's not actually possible because I have needs as a parent, my
Tanaya & Matt: Hmm.
Clare: relationship has needs as a couple, the kids have needs as kids, but we all have to have those taken care of. So the idea that I'm giving to my kids 100% of the time, it's like a piece of pie, you know, it's like 30%. is enough for a child to feel happy, connected, content. And if we respond when they need us, I always think of you know the battery going down. Sometimes you're using your apps more, so it uses more battery. And so you have to plug it in more often. And kids are like that. You know, some days they'll need you more, some days they'll need
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: you less. so it's a bit like that. It's like if you respond to them when they actually need you, not when they're want
Tanaya & Matt: Hm.
Clare: want want want want you know, when their cups empty. That that's enough. It's just enough.
Tanaya & Matt: So what are your views on nature versus nurture and what's do you know the the most recent research on that? I remember watching that documentary on the triplets many years ago and from my memory it was nurture that turned out to be the strongest factor there.
Clare: Yeah, I think there's the biology of what makes us all human. We've all got red blood. there's the biology, but anthropology, sociology, all of that looking at culture and context, it's a lot to do with how we're raised.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: What influences the people who raised us. We'll all still, grow into a human, but how we act out the part or the roles we play or how we act out what it is to be human will be different based on how we were nurtured. So the
Tanaya & Matt: And I think there's a lot, a lot to say, about, whatever your style of parenting is, asking yourself: is this coming from a place of fear? Or is this coming from a place of some other more helpful place? because I think. when it is coming from fear, children are are so receptive to our fear and
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: to our flaws, even when they're unspoken and well, I guess because that if you're showing you're fearful of spiders, they're thinking, Well, I should be fearful of spiders too, 'cause that's a bad thing. Yeah. Yeah. In whatever that form
Clare: Spiders are dangerous. Yeah. But it
Tanaya & Matt: that takes.
Clare: I think it gets even more fundamental than that. So if a child is capable of understanding that spider and whether that spider's dangerous or not, you don't have to do anything about it. So fear
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: is contextual in terms of If you're putting your fear on a child but they're capable of working that out for themselves, then you're interfering with their learning process. Or if you're pushing
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: them out to do something that they're not quite ready to do, you're also, potentially turning them off something that that maybe they were just weren't ready for. So an example of
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: that is like a child climbing a tree and they're quite capable of climbing that tree, but you're going, be careful, be careful, be careful, because your fears getting in the way, that you're actually making them anxious about your feelings. Not about climbing the tree, because they're capable of that.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm, mm.
Clare: They're making they're anxious about your feelings, about they're gonna think about your worries. which is, you know, part of being in a relationship as well is that we care about each other, but I'm talking about how we influence, our children in terms of what you're saying about fear. our fears get in the way and stop a child from exploring or or push them out to explore when they're not actually ready, because we think they should, you know. When I was a kid. When I was a kid, I was going down
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: the shops and doing this, that and the other. So you should be. And and they're developmentally might be slightly not there yet. Yeah, so it's always about watching,
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Clare: responding to what they need at that time is much more useful, I think, than having a doctrine or a book of parenting on how to. It's like you've got the book right there in front of you. It's called Your Child. If you read
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah, and meeting them where they're at, and it's just accepting who they are as people. And if they are that kid that wants to climb the tree and they're good at it, then take a deep breath and let them do it. And and if they're
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: not, don't push them into that and accepting they're more sensitive or bookish or what Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Clare: Yeah. Go on, climb the tree. When I was yeah yeah. When I was your age, I was climbing now, yeah. Yeah. So it's it's just finding that balance of and yeah, it's good to have a challenge, but the challenge, it not beyond what you're capable of. So
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: as people grow and evolve, they're they learn their own skills and do things that they If they're not afraid and you haven't put the fear of God, I'd say that as a turn of phrase rather than actually, some religious thing
Tanaya & Matt: Mm, mm, mm.
Clare: is that, you know, that the children get get filled with fear, but it's your fear.
Tanaya & Matt: Hm.
Clare: And can they learn their own way in the world? And you know, the washing the washing gets dry. The kids grow up and despite Not too spite, but despite how we were parented, we all do our own thing anyway, eventually.
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. well I wanted to ask if there's a parent out there listening right now, just feeling exhausted over it, guilty, confused, like they're somehow getting it all wrong, what would you want them to hear?
Clare: I would say you cook, you clean, you care, you nurse, you drive, you taxi, you educate, you house, you love, you fix all of those things and you do one thing wrong, and that's what you remember. Yes.
Tanaya & Matt: it reminds me of a beautiful story that Ajahn Brahm from the Buddhist center tells about a brick wall that he was a part of building at one of the monasteries, and that he, built this brick wall, and there was one brick that was imperfect. And every time he walked past that wall, that's all he would notice. And this was a habit until, people would come through for tours and he would always be like, God, that brick, don't look at that. And then, you
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: know, at one point he realised there are, nine hundred and something other bricks around that one brick that he wasn't looking at. and I think that's a beautiful metaphor for what we all do.
Clare: Yeah, we do. and obviously the fact that we focus on it means that it's drawn our attention and it may be something that we care about enough to do something differently if we want to. But the fact is is that all that other stuff we do all day, every day, we don't give ourselves credit sometimes for that. And it gets missed because nobody sets out to hurt their kids. Not you know, maybe
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: if someone's really unwell or they're not, you know,
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: most people, most normal average humans, they love their kids and they want to raise them well and they want them to be good humans and the fact that they give themselves such a hard time when they're stuffed it up just tells me that they care a lot. But that shouldn't be the hundred percent focus of your attention. It should be about how
Tanaya & Matt: And if you could
Clare: how do I fix it? How do I make it right? How do I put that broken vase back together with
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: kindness, you know?
Tanaya & Matt: And and if you could go back to yourself, having just given birth to your beautiful son,
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: and you could talk to yourself, what would you tell
Clare: yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: that person about the journey that of parenting that was about to unfold? Would you do anything differently?
Clare: a hundred percent. But hindsight's always, a great thing. Cause I think, when I was talking earlier about how I reacted to my own upbringing, and then I raised my child as if I was raising, a little Clare again. And
Tanaya & Matt: Mm-hmm.
Clare: actually sometimes missing out on what he needed because I was blinded to like, this is how you should be parented. so I think in hindsight I'd say to myself. Just read Harry, just read your son. Sort yourself out separately and get the therapy you need for yourself, but you're not you're not re raising Clare. You're raising a new human and he has different needs.
Tanaya & Matt: Mm.
Clare: And I'd probably be a bit firmer than I was, but the reason I wasn't so firm was also because I was damaged, you know, and I
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: was Part of me raising him was healing that damage in myself, which is not necessarily a useful tool to use your own child as kind of a but it I think that just happens naturally when you become a parent.
Tanaya & Matt: Yes.
Clare: You suddenly realize what it's like to be a parent, because I also felt very forgiving of my own parents and understood the vastness of what they were going through in order to, raise me. So it it gave me some more perspective. But I think looking back I'd definitely be be a bit firmer, make him go to school when he said he didn't want to go to school. And and be much kinder to myself. Much kinder to myself. Yeah. Yeah, much.
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah, lovely, lovely. they those be my own words from a couple of episodes ago. Absolutely. I said that exact thing. That's what I would do. I'd be much kinder. And I think that's a a beautiful way to wind up this episode, Clare. Thank you. Yeah, that was awesome. So much for chatting with us today and imparting your parenting wisdom. And I know that your, your business has gone through many changes over the years. Where are you at now with your website and you know where can people find
Clare: yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: you? If if people are you available for one-to-one parenting counselling? How can people connect
Clare: Yeah.
Tanaya & Matt: with you?
Clare: So I don't have a website at the moment because I'm out with the old and in with the new. So I'm in the process of getting a new website built, which will be ClaireChristie.com eventually. but at the
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah.
Clare: moment, if somebody wants to book a session with me, I'm on LinkedIn. or I'm happy for you to put my email in the comments or set somewhere where people can know.
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Clare: get in touch with me and ask me any questions.
Tanaya & Matt: Well.
Clare: But it's been a pleasure. Thank you.
Tanaya & Matt: We will absolutely put your email in the comments. I'm sure there are lots of people out there who could use some help in the parenting department. And be kind
Clare: Yeah, everything.
Tanaya & Matt: to each other and yourself. Yes.
Clare: Yes, be kind. Be kind.
Tanaya & Matt: Yeah. Well, thank you, Clare, for being part of this conversation. May we keep honouring the wisdom we inherit while also giving ourselves permission to prune. replant and occasionally repot a few things along the way with compassion, and a little less certainty. But for now, let's keep evolving. Bye for now. Thanks, Clare.
Tanaya: before we completely sign off, here's what we have on offer right now. Now, if you've been craving deeper reconnection, with yourself, your partner, or the natural world, then a few days in one of the most healing corners of the planet, surrounded by like-hearted humans, might be exactly what you need. So join Tanaya and me from April 15th to 20th, 2027. For our next great Southern Renewal Retreat in magnificent Denmark, Western Australia. You can come solo with your significant other or with a pal or three. We'll spend five nights and six days immersed in the best that Mother Nature has to offer, returning to balance, connection, and renewal. So if you'd like to know more, message us at connect at mindbodycollective.com.au and we'll send through the details. And if you'd like to explore these conversations more deeply, You can also grab a copy of the book that has inspired many of them, Evolving Traditions, Yoga Ethics and Modern Practice. To find out more about the book, the retreat and other offerings, visit mindbodycollective.com.au.
