![EP65: [Nick Jonsson] Exposing Executive Loneliness](https://cdn-images-3.listennotes.com/podcasts/evolvepreneur/ep65-nick-jonsson-exposing-a_1CizSTseB-sFWTtoHaUAn.1000x1000.jpg "EP65: [Nick Jonsson] Exposing Executive Loneliness")
John: Welcome to Evolvepreneur podcast channel. My very special guest today is Nick J Johnson, and welcome, Nick to the show.
Nick: Thank you very much, John.
John: Cool. So Nick and I are all friends in some respects because we've been around for a while, but I’m going to dig into Nick's bio. And then we can have a chat. So Nick's the co-founder and MD of Asia's premier networking organization called Executive Global Network, EGN for short. Australians life's too short and stuff, so that's good work. He built a caring community that provides hundreds of executives a safe haven to share their challenges and receive support and learn from each other. Nick is also a number one best-selling author of Executive Loneliness, which we'll talk about today. Executive Loneliness is an incredibly serious condition, and in some cases can be fatal. So we're going to kind of talk about the consequences of that and how Nick puts it in his book. So welcome back again, Nick.
Nick: Thank you very much, John. It's a pleasure to be here.
John: Cool. All right. So, I probably, it's probably the only book I've probably read in recent times because it's your book and we actually published your book. So there's a bit of a conflict of interest here, theoretically. But I think it was because we also understand how the book works, that we can really dig into it. So, tell me how you got to where you got to now. Like I know there's an incredible backstory about how you got to where you are, and the whole idea behind Executive Loneliness, because I think it's something that people don't want to talk about. It's like the same sort of scenario when you're depressed. People don't want to tell people they're depressed, right? So you ended up in this loop.
Nick: Yes indeed, John. This topic is so full of stigma and taboo, and most people don't want to talk about it. The only reason I decided to start about the topic that is that I was actually so ill that I realized it was close I was going to die. So when you reached a point in your life, when you feel that you've been given a second chance that you really shouldn't even be alive then what do you have to lose? That's why I afford a better, make something special of this gift. Call it a second life or whatever it is. And I felt also that I need to see if I can at least spread a positive message because during these times when I was sick, sadly also I lost a good friend of mine to suicide, and that's when I actually decided to, I go out with my story in the open. Until then I had only shared it with my wife and a couple of close friends, but as my friend died of suicide, that's when I realized I might've been very close to this myself.
John: And it's interesting. Actually, I was going to try and find it in the book, but there's a picture in the book of your foot. Just like it doesn't look like a foot at all. Looks like a slab of meat. And it's how you basically let yourself go in terms of physical as well as mental, right? You've managed to do damage on both sides of the fence, right?
Nick: Yes, indeed. That swollen foot, that was indeed a scary incident. It was around April 2018. I remember lying in my bed, wondering what wrong with the foot. And I went to the doctor, we did x-rays and did all kinds of tests and they couldn't find anything wrong with it yet. Yet it was big, like an elephant foot, and I couldn't even put it on the shoe, you know? So, it was only later on a psychologist actually diagnosed this as a psychosomatic illness. So, that's basically how bad I was mentally. They are showing up on the outside.
John: Physically. A lot of times that's not necessarily the case. Like, I mean, people die of heart attacks and stuff like that, because they're internalizing everything, but your body actually yelled for help, didn't it? In some respects, you at least, well, I guess you had no choice but to pay attention at that point, right?
Nick: Exactly. And, I mean, I realized how close I was to a heart attack at that time. Also, I could really feel it. My blood pressure was so extremely high that it was like walking on eggshells the whole time, basically. And I knew that the time was there. That's why I even wrote my will and my testament. I prepared everything I could at that stage because I just thought I was going to be gone.
John: Wow. Yeah, that's a very confronting thing, right? I suppose in some respects does force your brain into survival mode then, doesn't it? You brain starts thinking, “Hang on a minute, you can't do that to me”.
Nick: Well, it does that until you actually lose hope. When you lose hope, that's when you go relatively quickly. And I, for some reason, you know, I was that far that I lost my hope also because my health was so bad. But I guess my day was not there yet. There was something bigger than me who decided that I should go on. And for that I'm grateful for.
John: So, what was the turning point? Like, obviously you got to a point where you're basically, you know, about the jump off the bridge, essentially. What sort of stopped you from that and what sort of went off in your head and just start changing things?
Nick: Well, I was actually so sick that I was no way I could do anything about it. I could just lie down. So I wouldn't be able to take any action to go to a bridge in the first place at that stage. I was just lying basically. Yeah, it was a good thing. What happened was actually, because I realized my days were gone, I decided to get married. So, so I actually, that was my turning point. I got married and I decided to tell. And my wife had been with me for two years at the time. But I had not really told her the complete truth. How I was feeling. She didn't really realize. I was pretty good to hide it. I put on a good smile and a good face, and it was only inside me. I felt so sick and so bad. So I told her, and as soon as I told her, she immediately showed empathy. That helps a little bit just by someone actually knowing what's happening, showing empathy. She also gave me some support when she went to the doctors with me. She also went to some other person too to speak to. And she actually supported me to join a support group as well. And very, very quickly after these things happened, I started to recover.
John: Yeah. So it's interesting, like in some cases, what people don't want to do is ask for help because they think they feel weak or, you know, people are going to think less of them. But the reality is, is that actually works the other way round. Isn't it?
Nick: Exactly. So that was the turning point there. By just, you know, starting to talk to a few people and very, very quickly it changes. In my case, it was also to really the diet and to stop consuming alcohol therefore had become a problem at this stage.
John: Yeah. And now you're running iron mans’, right? I mean, I think I saw a photo on LinkedIn recently where you finished the race or something? I can't remember exactly what they have in there, but I know. So it put a picture of you doing a race.
Nick: Yes, indeed, John. And I'm doing one on Sunday. I'm actually in Europe at the moment. So I'm doing one on Sunday. I'm grateful for the health I have now. Yeah, you have to keep going.
John: Yes, rather than running away from something or running towards something, right? So, I guess in some respects that…and we spoke to you about your book originally, we sort of thought, well, what's the major, key thing for your book. I mean, originally the book was going to be a different thing because things change a lot with a pandemic early last year. So you kind of went through a very different sort of idea from the get-go because originally you had had a job, right? And then you ended up actually taking over the business in Singapore in the end. And this is actually, you know, person to person networking, you know. You should go to an event and actually meet people, shake their hands, which seems like it's not possible, now that no one wants to do that anymore, but you know, that was an incredible hard part of what was going on as well, right?
Nick: Yeah, I think we're about halfway through the book at that stage. And indeed, my head office wanted to minimize the risks and they realized that there's no franchise owner to our business in Singapore, and they didn't want to put themselves in such a high-risk situation during COVID. And of course it is a franchise business, and the other countries are owned by franchise owners who are experts in their market. So the ball was passed to me, and I said, “No, I'm not interested” because this was in March 2020 when definitely people would…the last thing they wanted was to go out and attend an event. And I said, “No”. But that was a pretty good starting point for a good negotiation.
John: Well, that's interesting because I went through a similar thing. Because when I was working for Sage, I've got a six-month job and we actually…and we started saving it from a big loss to start the make or break-even profit. And they go, “We're not making enough money. We want to get out to walk and take it off our hands then.” And so we took it off the hands on a fee and ended up being the second largest, say, distributed the world out of it. And I think the problem…there was an opportunity that I could see that other people don't see for whatever reason, right? That there's opportunities of everything. And I mean, obviously when you think about it, you know, you've managed to be able to sort of future-proof yourself a little bit now because you've gone online and offline and you've got that ability now to kind of pivot whichever way works rather than being tied to one thing.
Nick: Exactly. And we just had one event this morning in Singapore and the regulations all over the world now, of course is different then. It's very hard to know what, where can you meet 50? Where can you meet 500 and so on. In Singapore now this week has gone one step towards opening up a little bit. So, we had one hybrid event happening this morning. I think it was about 25 people in the room and about 11-12 online. So this event would not have been possible before. It wouldn't even be a hundred percent online or it probably would have been in person most likely. So, yeah. It has some good effect actually on how we are working and how we are networking.
John: Yeah. And I think at the end of the day, like I think it's a kick first pick, you know, built in the back of the head sometimes, because I think basically it shows how weak that industry was if it just totally relied on people showing up, which was hard anyway, right? I mean, getting people to show up the networking events is hard enough as it is in my experience. And so, yeah, I think in some respects it gives that whole networking industry a whole kicks, that they can actually try something new rather than just stay attendance spaced.
Nick: Yeah, exactly. We were in the business of getting people to attend before. That was the biggest challenge and the whole infrastructure, you know, pushing, making sure that they come there. Once that is done the rest is relatively easy because once you have people in the room, magic happens, and you don't have to do…you don't have to prepare much. You just have to make calls.
John: Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. I mean, the end of the day, they let them do the heavy lifting. Then you just, you just got to get them in the room. So when you go online, that's a little harder, right? It's much tougher to do.
Nick: Yes, exactly. Because people might just switch off the camera and join the next meeting.
John: That's all right. So yeah, it's a bit scary. So, I guess part of what came into this though, was the fact that as you started talking about Executive Loneliness, that it started as sort of…there had been a ricochet effect, didn't it? People started coming out of the woodwork, talking about it, which is really what we originally spoke about, right? So that people don't want to talk about it. And so the book actually started that off. So, what's your kind of vision for this scenario, what you've done now, what you started?
Nick: Yeah, I think the timing was obviously perfect because we had done half of the book by the time the pandemic strike, which also means that the surveys and interviews was done pre-pandemic, and we had a chance then to redo. These are the same survey with the same audience and get different results. It was quite remarkable. Just to give you a few numbers, so in 2019, when I surveyed executives, about 30% are suffering from executive loneliness. The same poll done in December 2020; the numbers had doubled to 59%. So, that was really a reflection of what is happening. And people are obviously feeling more isolated in the decisions…working from home and under very stressful situations as well. And so that changed the whole thing of the book. I mean, these findings obviously also stand out. My next call after this, John, is to rehearse for a radio interview where they want to know a bit more about this tomorrow.
John: Okay, well, we can do with the rehearsal now then, can’t we? So, executive loneliness, how different is the loneliness? Like a normal loneliness is obviously, you know, you're not married, perhaps you've lost your spouse, or you just never got married, in that scenario. So it's a very different that loneliness depression to what we're talking about- executive loneliness. So what's kind of the definition of that in comparison? No else has got some similarities?
Nick: Well, let's just say that the first loneliness you referred to, John, is the healthy loneliness. Yes, we are home alone, we miss someone, and that's a good feeling. But they can also be the loneliness where you are in a crowd, around your family, perhaps your close friends and you don't feel the connection. You might have lost that connection within yourself. Most often, it means that you're not really well. You're not happy with yourself. You don't love yourself or there's just something there. Maybe you're extremely unhealthy. And so what is it then to love about yourself? If you don't feel happy about yourself, then it's really difficult also to feel happy and feel a connection with other people. So that's the first step. And then if we take it to the next step, then what is executive loneliness? And in the case of my book, it's about at work. It can be a senior executive, but it can also be an executive. It's about feeling that you're left alone to make the decisions, especially, as the saying goes “It is lonely at the top.” So the higher you go, the more lonely it becomes. That's exactly the kind of profiles that I interviewed for the book.
John: So, it's interesting. I’ve read somewhere once, another thing, it's a pretty good thing, “What you want to say to yourself when you’re alone is the most dangerous thing.”
Nick: Yeah, we spend most of our time in our own head, isn't it?
John: Yeah, so the biggest problem now is that if a lot of people, I think in business particularly, like if you're doing networking and everything, like they, they get around people you don’t have time to think about stuff, right? You're talking to other people, you're worried about you're going to say, so you don't have to talk to yourself. And I think the downside of something like a pandemic is that you get locked in, locked away, and then it's only you, right? So I can imagine why it would happen. Those statistics would go through the roof, but then the ramifications of that is massive then because people start making decisions that aren't necessarily, they start getting paranoid, right? I mean, I used to find when I had staff working remotely, if they didn't come to the office and getting direct with the rest of staff, they started thinking that everybody was against them. That there was someone plotting that they're going to get fired or something. All these things come up because there's no one else around us say, “Hey, that's just rubbish.” Now, what you're saying next has got nothing to do with it, but you don't have that reinforcing thing. So you're actually lost in your own head.
Nick: Yeah, no, definitely. And while people have been left alone to spend time thinking about things, I still been also very isolated where they haven't had time to meet, to discuss things with colleagues. This is so often that…actually the most important part of a conversation happens at the coffee machine or at the break or you go for a lunch break after, or you have a coffee morning. Because of these common… these matches have not happened. It's been so transactional. When we throw a meeting, we discussed the things and then you will go and do the job and then you just do transactions again. That just means that the relationships are breaking down and it becomes more tense between people until it just boils over. Also with all the precious that have happened. We still see it today, John. I think with many of the travel restrictions, families are separated, and the people are not seeing their boss face-to-face for soon two years.
John: Yeah, well, they even changed bosses and they don't even know the new one is, right. Is it like things have…because it's been a big uphill on some businesses as well, particularly businesses that are like, they're very tied to that, like travel businesses, for example, like I can imagine that those, those businesses had such a huge change in business and also staff, I would imagine.
Nick: Yeah, definitely. We see big shutdowns of businesses in Asia, but a lot of new businesses are coming up, but it's been shuffling around a lot.
John: Cause it's interesting in Australia now that the unemployment rate is lower than it was March last year now.
Nick: Okay.
John: So, bizarrely, it's actually better now in June than it was in March last year. And obviously you had a whole…because of the amount of money that was pumped into the economy itself. But what I did notice was there was a lot of part-time staff, lot more part-time staff than full-time staff. So you can see a lot of new businesses probably employ part-time people or they've restructured. So the nature of that, of what's going on has changed. So you might say, “Oh, you've got a job”, you might be getting less money, you might be doing different work. So there's a major change and upheaval, and that can cause that whole depression and loneliness as well, because suddenly you're out of your element, right? You're not in the same place you normally are.
Nick: Yeah, that's right. Then the gig economy, you know, it's also comes with a lot of uncertainty and anxiety. You don't know in three months where you're going to be.
John: When the next job is. So, in your book you talk about, we sort of took the five steps of how to kind of handle this. So in some respects, I guess we talked about the first step and that's actually acknowledging you've got a problem, right? And doing and actually telling people about it. Cause I think once you do that, you've started the conversation. What's next on that list once you've made that conversation is sort of, you’ve highlighted it, what's the kind of next step in that logical process?
Nick: Yeah, indeed. We covered the first and the second step, John. That was to taking step and asking for help. And then it's really getting healthy. Maybe be physically or mentally. That's the next step. You've got to sort that out. In my case, it really was to exercise. It was to get rid of the alcohol and it was to eat healthy. While it sounds simple and there's so many books about it it's really fundamental, because if you're…for employees, poisoning yourself may be alcohol or food, and then you just don't have any chance. And I even at that stage could hardly walk. So I had to really get a fitness coach and just set some targets. To get out for a walk and stretch it a little bit. The first few months, it was nothing more than a five-kilometer walk and what was stretched to. Then I did some cycling and then some swimming to that then just kept going. And after one year I completed an Ironman. So, uh..
John: It's amazing, isn't it? How fast things turn? I mean, I remember last year, I probably needed to lose about nine kilos, roughly, right? So that's not massive weight loss in comparison some people, but it's a fair bit to lose. So I just started walking every day, maybe twice a day. And what I noticed was that I did that and lost six kilos, and then I got busy with stuff, and I stopped doing it. I'm still exercising, but not that regime of going walking and I hurt my foot at one point there so I had to stop it anyway. But one…on yesterday I went inside, “Okay, I'm going to start this walking in the morning again business”. And it's cold here, it's winter. And so I set the alarm and I turned the alarm off, and I get out of bed. And I'm going, “I'm not…”, you know, start talking about your little head, goes off saying, “Oh yeah, I'll do it tomorrow”, you know, start sort of talking yourself out of it. I forcibly like, forced myself to get out of it. Like literally it's like, “Get out of bed, go do this”. And then when I, and, but the thing was that what happens then is that you get back. If you reward yourself somehow, then you positively reinforcing the fact that I'll do it again. And when I got, so I listened to an audio book, so I'm like going through that reward process, it's almost like you're training a dog to do something, right? So almost like he'd do something and give him a sweet or some sort of treat and obviously eating sweets, not a good plan, I have to do an exercise, but you know, like do that kind of process where you trick yourself into it. And it's not rocket science, right? If you actually just trick yourself into it and then do it and how that wasn't so bad, I'll do that again tomorrow. And there's little baby steps is probably the only way to get there. And I just walk two days, two times a day for about three months or something, lost six kilos just, you know, went away and the doctor said, “What'd you do?”, And I said, “I just walked every day and weighed myself every day. That's all I did. Didn't do anything else.” I changed my eating habits because the result of…the brain start thinking about it, “Oh, well, hang on. Don't eat that.” You know, and that's, you know, it doesn't have to be regimented and, you know, get some coach to call you five minutes and say, “Where are you walking?”
Nick: But with all the devices these days that you can track these matters, right? Then…
John: Well, actually I did that too. It's interesting. Actually, the Quantas here. Cause obviously it's interesting to look at a credible company and how they pivot, right? So Quantas had nothing, like grounded completely. What do they do that starts selling all their services on the side, right? So they've got insurance and health cover and all sorts of stuff. So they brought out an app that when you walk, you get reward points for flying. All right. Was that brilliant?
Nick: Yeah.
John: And so it came out in June, which is when I started walking. So I started doing that and tracking the thumb thing. I'm earning frequent flyer points. And I worked, I think I, I walked about, I forget the distance. It's quite interesting. It says it in the app, but it rewards you, encourages you, and it was like cool well-being app. And I think I basically, you know, in the end I probably earned about 10,000 Quantas points or something, but I walked thousands of kilometers, and that was basically off the back of flying in reality. I wasn’t going to fly anytime soon, right?
Nick: And get a dog and put the device on the dog, and it can fly around the world.
John: Let’s try that. Cause it actually tracks, yeah…and the app right now wants to verify me. And so, yeah, but I think I looked at the numbers, it was thousands, because it also says if you walk this distance where would you get to? Like it says something like Paris or something, right? So when you actually start seeing how far you walk to the thousands of kilometers, and it's so…why is he a walking, you know, 5k a day or something like that. It wasn't a massive distance, but it adds up. So it reinforces the fact a little bit adds up to a lot.
Nick: Yeah, exactly. It's about doing it daily.
John: Yeah. Just those, those daily habits. So, what are you working on now? Obviously you've got that…you've got the media going and that's good because I mean, at the end of the day, once you get the media's attention, they tend to go after each other. Then, you know, once you get on one TV channel or radio show, they watch each other. So then suddenly they want you on their show. So that helps. So what's your kind of plan on that? We did some website stuff and stuff like…so what's your long-term plan here to sort of, as a movement?
Nick: Well, I need to repackage everything into something more positive, because while Executive Loneliness seems to be really getting the attention of the media and it stands out in social media articles, there's no organization really where the HR organization, we should go out and run an Executive Loneliness. We go campaign. It just too negative. So while I'm in the spotlight now it's not necessarily something that is positive. So I need to repackage everything. And I'm working in bed at the moment. How can I repackage this into resilience, emotional intelligence and about the happiness. That's what a project that I'm working on at the moment. So I'm trying to change this into a keynote, one day course. So basically learning since should be about being healthy and happy rather than the term Executive Loneliness.
John: Yeah. And I think that's the problem, right? So you've identified a problem, but if you don't identify a solution, then there's no, you know, everybody’s just running around doing nothing. So, I mean, by taking some action and I mean the book was never designed to sit there and depress the hell out of you. It was designed to say, “Okay, you've got a problem. How do you fix it?”, right? It wasn't designed to say, “Oh, I'm going to get you even more depressed because you've now discovered you've got this problem you didn't know you had.” But I think, yeah, I mean that mission of looking at and improving someone's situation, and yeah, it isn't, you know, I think the biggest problem with entrepreneurship is that it's a lonely job because your family and friends don't necessarily understand what the hell you're doing and why you’re doing it. Because they go, “This doesn't seem right. You're still, you're working longer and longer hours for less and less money. Why the hell are you doing this?”, right?
Nick: Yeah, that's exactly right. I'm working with a coach now. She is actually a…and she's done some great TEDx talks, and she's now writing a script for TEDx talks and public speaking. So just to have a coach to also talk you through that bit though is really, really helpful. Put yourself in the audience, your shoes, and think about the case, which is the audience. Who would you like to target this for? And then we're repackaging and trying to use as much of the material we can from the book, but also benefit from all the media exposure and so on and being in the spotlight. But yeah, just repackaging it and selling it in another way.
John: So yeah, going to try and get on TEDx?
Nick: Well, I will, I have to think about what is the new idea. So I haven't really came up with a new idea linked to this yet.
John: Cause it's interesting, because I've got a client, we've got a contact to get people on TEDx guaranteed or, or even get on the Ted. Ted takes a lot more work. TEDx is like a sort of a mini version of it. And you can get in easier. It's still hard, but Ted, you be ready to go to pitch. But one of the interesting things that happened with my client, he had to tighten this thing up to a 13- minute presentation and the amount of work that went into that to come up with that very nice package, every word counted, every pitcher counted. I think it's a really good exercise for anybody to do. Cause I think if you can't cut your whole thing down to 13 minutes and what you do, then that's a long conversation with a prospect, right? Like you've got to have, you've got to tell them a lot of things. So 13 minutes to really encapsulate your entire thing is tough, to keep and be engaging and entertaining at the same time, right? It can't just be some boring, like slideshow presentation. It has to actually have some sort of grit to it, right?
Nick: Exactly and how to remember all of it, then make it still authentic when you present it. That's all very challenging.
John: Yeah, I mean…Warrick, because he did two, he did one in Melbourne, and he did one in America, and he flew back the weekend that COVID hit. So he managed to just do it in time. He just got home and the COVID hit, and everything was shut down. So a week later and he would have been doomed. And one of the things he did was he actually recorded it. And then kept playing it back to himself and kept going and going to get that right. And so it is hard, but certainly it was worthwhile exercise. I think even if you even don't do a TEDx talk, right? I think just going through that exercise of getting it really tight and getting really rehearsed and what you do, because what I noticed with our public speakers is they have the same talk every time. So it's not like they are suddenly winning you something. That's their keynote talk. It's always the same. And I think most entrepreneurs think they've got to change it all the time and then that's creates confusion, and they end up in a situation where it's never really clear.
Nick: Yeah, that's right. I’ve given my keynote now probably around 30, 40 times, the next time is one time tomorrow and I don't change much. It might be one slide or one part of the presentation just to acknowledge, which is the audience, and try to find something which is, you can connect with them and get build some rapport. But that's it. You got to keep it the same.
John: And that's the thing about the message, right? If the message isn't clear and consistent then no one will ever get it and therefore you'll get nowhere with it. So, yeah, it's certainly something I find the most inappropriate folks struggle with. Cause they want to keep changing stuff, and it's dangerous because then no one not gets confused, and no one even understands what you're talking about then.
Nick: Yeah.
John: Cool. All right. So let's talk about your book, and I haven't had a copy of it just coincidentally as well. So there you go.
Nick: I’ve got one here, though.
John: You got the paperwork and the hard cover. There you go. Very good work. And you got some coming. I hope soon. It was probably in the boat soon. So basically you can get it on Amazon. You can pretty much get it wherever good books is sold. As well as you can go to your website and get it as well. At least in the digital version in the link. So, basically wherever you buy…you buy your books, you know, next book should be there. So, what's the best place to go to do that? I had down here nickjohnson.com. So we can put that up on the actual show notes that people can get to that.
Nick: Yeah, that's fine. And we also built a webpage for the book itself, which is executive lonelinessbook.com. And if someone goes to executivelonelinessbook.com, then you can see all the different sites that we can buy the book there.
John: Okay, cool. And there's also a book bonus that they can get as well. So, I mean, I probably should go there first and then find out and then get the book and then make sure they get the book bonus as well.
Nick: Definitely.
John: Cool. Well, thanks so much, Nick, for coming along. I think I really appreciate having a chat about bit, and I think it's a subject that as you said, no one wants to talk about, but since they start talking about it, they won't shut up about it. So that's it. It's a good, I think it's a good cause. And I really appreciate your time coming along.
Nick: Pleasure. And by the way, I have a gift also for the listeners. So can we kind of give them that.
John: Yeah, go for it, yeah.
Nick: Then we also have the community, lead is anonymous.com. So perhaps if we can share that, then we can give them a free membership. The basic membership there.
John: Cool. No worries. That's excellent. Good work. Glad you remember that. So we'll put that show notes up there as well, in terms of links and everything. So if you didn't get it on the audio, the video will be on the bottom of the page below. So that'd be great. All right.
Nick: Fantastic!
John: Excellent. Well, you have a great day and I hope your interview goes as well.
Nick: Thanks John. You have a good day too.
Nick: Thank you very much, John.
John: Cool. So Nick and I are all friends in some respects because we've been around for a while, but I’m going to dig into Nick's bio. And then we can have a chat. So Nick's the co-founder and MD of Asia's premier networking organization called Executive Global Network, EGN for short. Australians life's too short and stuff, so that's good work. He built a caring community that provides hundreds of executives a safe haven to share their challenges and receive support and learn from each other. Nick is also a number one best-selling author of Executive Loneliness, which we'll talk about today. Executive Loneliness is an incredibly serious condition, and in some cases can be fatal. So we're going to kind of talk about the consequences of that and how Nick puts it in his book. So welcome back again, Nick.
Nick: Thank you very much, John. It's a pleasure to be here.
John: Cool. All right. So, I probably, it's probably the only book I've probably read in recent times because it's your book and we actually published your book. So there's a bit of a conflict of interest here, theoretically. But I think it was because we also understand how the book works, that we can really dig into it. So, tell me how you got to where you got to now. Like I know there's an incredible backstory about how you got to where you are, and the whole idea behind Executive Loneliness, because I think it's something that people don't want to talk about. It's like the same sort of scenario when you're depressed. People don't want to tell people they're depressed, right? So you ended up in this loop.
Nick: Yes indeed, John. This topic is so full of stigma and taboo, and most people don't want to talk about it. The only reason I decided to start about the topic that is that I was actually so ill that I realized it was close I was going to die. So when you reached a point in your life, when you feel that you've been given a second chance that you really shouldn't even be alive then what do you have to lose? That's why I afford a better, make something special of this gift. Call it a second life or whatever it is. And I felt also that I need to see if I can at least spread a positive message because during these times when I was sick, sadly also I lost a good friend of mine to suicide, and that's when I actually decided to, I go out with my story in the open. Until then I had only shared it with my wife and a couple of close friends, but as my friend died of suicide, that's when I realized I might've been very close to this myself.
John: And it's interesting. Actually, I was going to try and find it in the book, but there's a picture in the book of your foot. Just like it doesn't look like a foot at all. Looks like a slab of meat. And it's how you basically let yourself go in terms of physical as well as mental, right? You've managed to do damage on both sides of the fence, right?
Nick: Yes, indeed. That swollen foot, that was indeed a scary incident. It was around April 2018. I remember lying in my bed, wondering what wrong with the foot. And I went to the doctor, we did x-rays and did all kinds of tests and they couldn't find anything wrong with it yet. Yet it was big, like an elephant foot, and I couldn't even put it on the shoe, you know? So, it was only later on a psychologist actually diagnosed this as a psychosomatic illness. So, that's basically how bad I was mentally. They are showing up on the outside.
John: Physically. A lot of times that's not necessarily the case. Like, I mean, people die of heart attacks and stuff like that, because they're internalizing everything, but your body actually yelled for help, didn't it? In some respects, you at least, well, I guess you had no choice but to pay attention at that point, right?
Nick: Exactly. And, I mean, I realized how close I was to a heart attack at that time. Also, I could really feel it. My blood pressure was so extremely high that it was like walking on eggshells the whole time, basically. And I knew that the time was there. That's why I even wrote my will and my testament. I prepared everything I could at that stage because I just thought I was going to be gone.
John: Wow. Yeah, that's a very confronting thing, right? I suppose in some respects does force your brain into survival mode then, doesn't it? You brain starts thinking, “Hang on a minute, you can't do that to me”.
Nick: Well, it does that until you actually lose hope. When you lose hope, that's when you go relatively quickly. And I, for some reason, you know, I was that far that I lost my hope also because my health was so bad. But I guess my day was not there yet. There was something bigger than me who decided that I should go on. And for that I'm grateful for.
John: So, what was the turning point? Like, obviously you got to a point where you're basically, you know, about the jump off the bridge, essentially. What sort of stopped you from that and what sort of went off in your head and just start changing things?
Nick: Well, I was actually so sick that I was no way I could do anything about it. I could just lie down. So I wouldn't be able to take any action to go to a bridge in the first place at that stage. I was just lying basically. Yeah, it was a good thing. What happened was actually, because I realized my days were gone, I decided to get married. So, so I actually, that was my turning point. I got married and I decided to tell. And my wife had been with me for two years at the time. But I had not really told her the complete truth. How I was feeling. She didn't really realize. I was pretty good to hide it. I put on a good smile and a good face, and it was only inside me. I felt so sick and so bad. So I told her, and as soon as I told her, she immediately showed empathy. That helps a little bit just by someone actually knowing what's happening, showing empathy. She also gave me some support when she went to the doctors with me. She also went to some other person too to speak to. And she actually supported me to join a support group as well. And very, very quickly after these things happened, I started to recover.
John: Yeah. So it's interesting, like in some cases, what people don't want to do is ask for help because they think they feel weak or, you know, people are going to think less of them. But the reality is, is that actually works the other way round. Isn't it?
Nick: Exactly. So that was the turning point there. By just, you know, starting to talk to a few people and very, very quickly it changes. In my case, it was also to really the diet and to stop consuming alcohol therefore had become a problem at this stage.
John: Yeah. And now you're running iron mans’, right? I mean, I think I saw a photo on LinkedIn recently where you finished the race or something? I can't remember exactly what they have in there, but I know. So it put a picture of you doing a race.
Nick: Yes, indeed, John. And I'm doing one on Sunday. I'm actually in Europe at the moment. So I'm doing one on Sunday. I'm grateful for the health I have now. Yeah, you have to keep going.
John: Yes, rather than running away from something or running towards something, right? So, I guess in some respects that…and we spoke to you about your book originally, we sort of thought, well, what's the major, key thing for your book. I mean, originally the book was going to be a different thing because things change a lot with a pandemic early last year. So you kind of went through a very different sort of idea from the get-go because originally you had had a job, right? And then you ended up actually taking over the business in Singapore in the end. And this is actually, you know, person to person networking, you know. You should go to an event and actually meet people, shake their hands, which seems like it's not possible, now that no one wants to do that anymore, but you know, that was an incredible hard part of what was going on as well, right?
Nick: Yeah, I think we're about halfway through the book at that stage. And indeed, my head office wanted to minimize the risks and they realized that there's no franchise owner to our business in Singapore, and they didn't want to put themselves in such a high-risk situation during COVID. And of course it is a franchise business, and the other countries are owned by franchise owners who are experts in their market. So the ball was passed to me, and I said, “No, I'm not interested” because this was in March 2020 when definitely people would…the last thing they wanted was to go out and attend an event. And I said, “No”. But that was a pretty good starting point for a good negotiation.
John: Well, that's interesting because I went through a similar thing. Because when I was working for Sage, I've got a six-month job and we actually…and we started saving it from a big loss to start the make or break-even profit. And they go, “We're not making enough money. We want to get out to walk and take it off our hands then.” And so we took it off the hands on a fee and ended up being the second largest, say, distributed the world out of it. And I think the problem…there was an opportunity that I could see that other people don't see for whatever reason, right? That there's opportunities of everything. And I mean, obviously when you think about it, you know, you've managed to be able to sort of future-proof yourself a little bit now because you've gone online and offline and you've got that ability now to kind of pivot whichever way works rather than being tied to one thing.
Nick: Exactly. And we just had one event this morning in Singapore and the regulations all over the world now, of course is different then. It's very hard to know what, where can you meet 50? Where can you meet 500 and so on. In Singapore now this week has gone one step towards opening up a little bit. So, we had one hybrid event happening this morning. I think it was about 25 people in the room and about 11-12 online. So this event would not have been possible before. It wouldn't even be a hundred percent online or it probably would have been in person most likely. So, yeah. It has some good effect actually on how we are working and how we are networking.
John: Yeah. And I think at the end of the day, like I think it's a kick first pick, you know, built in the back of the head sometimes, because I think basically it shows how weak that industry was if it just totally relied on people showing up, which was hard anyway, right? I mean, getting people to show up the networking events is hard enough as it is in my experience. And so, yeah, I think in some respects it gives that whole networking industry a whole kicks, that they can actually try something new rather than just stay attendance spaced.
Nick: Yeah, exactly. We were in the business of getting people to attend before. That was the biggest challenge and the whole infrastructure, you know, pushing, making sure that they come there. Once that is done the rest is relatively easy because once you have people in the room, magic happens, and you don't have to do…you don't have to prepare much. You just have to make calls.
John: Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. I mean, the end of the day, they let them do the heavy lifting. Then you just, you just got to get them in the room. So when you go online, that's a little harder, right? It's much tougher to do.
Nick: Yes, exactly. Because people might just switch off the camera and join the next meeting.
John: That's all right. So yeah, it's a bit scary. So, I guess part of what came into this though, was the fact that as you started talking about Executive Loneliness, that it started as sort of…there had been a ricochet effect, didn't it? People started coming out of the woodwork, talking about it, which is really what we originally spoke about, right? So that people don't want to talk about it. And so the book actually started that off. So, what's your kind of vision for this scenario, what you've done now, what you started?
Nick: Yeah, I think the timing was obviously perfect because we had done half of the book by the time the pandemic strike, which also means that the surveys and interviews was done pre-pandemic, and we had a chance then to redo. These are the same survey with the same audience and get different results. It was quite remarkable. Just to give you a few numbers, so in 2019, when I surveyed executives, about 30% are suffering from executive loneliness. The same poll done in December 2020; the numbers had doubled to 59%. So, that was really a reflection of what is happening. And people are obviously feeling more isolated in the decisions…working from home and under very stressful situations as well. And so that changed the whole thing of the book. I mean, these findings obviously also stand out. My next call after this, John, is to rehearse for a radio interview where they want to know a bit more about this tomorrow.
John: Okay, well, we can do with the rehearsal now then, can’t we? So, executive loneliness, how different is the loneliness? Like a normal loneliness is obviously, you know, you're not married, perhaps you've lost your spouse, or you just never got married, in that scenario. So it's a very different that loneliness depression to what we're talking about- executive loneliness. So what's kind of the definition of that in comparison? No else has got some similarities?
Nick: Well, let's just say that the first loneliness you referred to, John, is the healthy loneliness. Yes, we are home alone, we miss someone, and that's a good feeling. But they can also be the loneliness where you are in a crowd, around your family, perhaps your close friends and you don't feel the connection. You might have lost that connection within yourself. Most often, it means that you're not really well. You're not happy with yourself. You don't love yourself or there's just something there. Maybe you're extremely unhealthy. And so what is it then to love about yourself? If you don't feel happy about yourself, then it's really difficult also to feel happy and feel a connection with other people. So that's the first step. And then if we take it to the next step, then what is executive loneliness? And in the case of my book, it's about at work. It can be a senior executive, but it can also be an executive. It's about feeling that you're left alone to make the decisions, especially, as the saying goes “It is lonely at the top.” So the higher you go, the more lonely it becomes. That's exactly the kind of profiles that I interviewed for the book.
John: So, it's interesting. I’ve read somewhere once, another thing, it's a pretty good thing, “What you want to say to yourself when you’re alone is the most dangerous thing.”
Nick: Yeah, we spend most of our time in our own head, isn't it?
John: Yeah, so the biggest problem now is that if a lot of people, I think in business particularly, like if you're doing networking and everything, like they, they get around people you don’t have time to think about stuff, right? You're talking to other people, you're worried about you're going to say, so you don't have to talk to yourself. And I think the downside of something like a pandemic is that you get locked in, locked away, and then it's only you, right? So I can imagine why it would happen. Those statistics would go through the roof, but then the ramifications of that is massive then because people start making decisions that aren't necessarily, they start getting paranoid, right? I mean, I used to find when I had staff working remotely, if they didn't come to the office and getting direct with the rest of staff, they started thinking that everybody was against them. That there was someone plotting that they're going to get fired or something. All these things come up because there's no one else around us say, “Hey, that's just rubbish.” Now, what you're saying next has got nothing to do with it, but you don't have that reinforcing thing. So you're actually lost in your own head.
Nick: Yeah, no, definitely. And while people have been left alone to spend time thinking about things, I still been also very isolated where they haven't had time to meet, to discuss things with colleagues. This is so often that…actually the most important part of a conversation happens at the coffee machine or at the break or you go for a lunch break after, or you have a coffee morning. Because of these common… these matches have not happened. It's been so transactional. When we throw a meeting, we discussed the things and then you will go and do the job and then you just do transactions again. That just means that the relationships are breaking down and it becomes more tense between people until it just boils over. Also with all the precious that have happened. We still see it today, John. I think with many of the travel restrictions, families are separated, and the people are not seeing their boss face-to-face for soon two years.
John: Yeah, well, they even changed bosses and they don't even know the new one is, right. Is it like things have…because it's been a big uphill on some businesses as well, particularly businesses that are like, they're very tied to that, like travel businesses, for example, like I can imagine that those, those businesses had such a huge change in business and also staff, I would imagine.
Nick: Yeah, definitely. We see big shutdowns of businesses in Asia, but a lot of new businesses are coming up, but it's been shuffling around a lot.
John: Cause it's interesting in Australia now that the unemployment rate is lower than it was March last year now.
Nick: Okay.
John: So, bizarrely, it's actually better now in June than it was in March last year. And obviously you had a whole…because of the amount of money that was pumped into the economy itself. But what I did notice was there was a lot of part-time staff, lot more part-time staff than full-time staff. So you can see a lot of new businesses probably employ part-time people or they've restructured. So the nature of that, of what's going on has changed. So you might say, “Oh, you've got a job”, you might be getting less money, you might be doing different work. So there's a major change and upheaval, and that can cause that whole depression and loneliness as well, because suddenly you're out of your element, right? You're not in the same place you normally are.
Nick: Yeah, that's right. Then the gig economy, you know, it's also comes with a lot of uncertainty and anxiety. You don't know in three months where you're going to be.
John: When the next job is. So, in your book you talk about, we sort of took the five steps of how to kind of handle this. So in some respects, I guess we talked about the first step and that's actually acknowledging you've got a problem, right? And doing and actually telling people about it. Cause I think once you do that, you've started the conversation. What's next on that list once you've made that conversation is sort of, you’ve highlighted it, what's the kind of next step in that logical process?
Nick: Yeah, indeed. We covered the first and the second step, John. That was to taking step and asking for help. And then it's really getting healthy. Maybe be physically or mentally. That's the next step. You've got to sort that out. In my case, it really was to exercise. It was to get rid of the alcohol and it was to eat healthy. While it sounds simple and there's so many books about it it's really fundamental, because if you're…for employees, poisoning yourself may be alcohol or food, and then you just don't have any chance. And I even at that stage could hardly walk. So I had to really get a fitness coach and just set some targets. To get out for a walk and stretch it a little bit. The first few months, it was nothing more than a five-kilometer walk and what was stretched to. Then I did some cycling and then some swimming to that then just kept going. And after one year I completed an Ironman. So, uh..
John: It's amazing, isn't it? How fast things turn? I mean, I remember last year, I probably needed to lose about nine kilos, roughly, right? So that's not massive weight loss in comparison some people, but it's a fair bit to lose. So I just started walking every day, maybe twice a day. And what I noticed was that I did that and lost six kilos, and then I got busy with stuff, and I stopped doing it. I'm still exercising, but not that regime of going walking and I hurt my foot at one point there so I had to stop it anyway. But one…on yesterday I went inside, “Okay, I'm going to start this walking in the morning again business”. And it's cold here, it's winter. And so I set the alarm and I turned the alarm off, and I get out of bed. And I'm going, “I'm not…”, you know, start talking about your little head, goes off saying, “Oh yeah, I'll do it tomorrow”, you know, start sort of talking yourself out of it. I forcibly like, forced myself to get out of it. Like literally it's like, “Get out of bed, go do this”. And then when I, and, but the thing was that what happens then is that you get back. If you reward yourself somehow, then you positively reinforcing the fact that I'll do it again. And when I got, so I listened to an audio book, so I'm like going through that reward process, it's almost like you're training a dog to do something, right? So almost like he'd do something and give him a sweet or some sort of treat and obviously eating sweets, not a good plan, I have to do an exercise, but you know, like do that kind of process where you trick yourself into it. And it's not rocket science, right? If you actually just trick yourself into it and then do it and how that wasn't so bad, I'll do that again tomorrow. And there's little baby steps is probably the only way to get there. And I just walk two days, two times a day for about three months or something, lost six kilos just, you know, went away and the doctor said, “What'd you do?”, And I said, “I just walked every day and weighed myself every day. That's all I did. Didn't do anything else.” I changed my eating habits because the result of…the brain start thinking about it, “Oh, well, hang on. Don't eat that.” You know, and that's, you know, it doesn't have to be regimented and, you know, get some coach to call you five minutes and say, “Where are you walking?”
Nick: But with all the devices these days that you can track these matters, right? Then…
John: Well, actually I did that too. It's interesting. Actually, the Quantas here. Cause obviously it's interesting to look at a credible company and how they pivot, right? So Quantas had nothing, like grounded completely. What do they do that starts selling all their services on the side, right? So they've got insurance and health cover and all sorts of stuff. So they brought out an app that when you walk, you get reward points for flying. All right. Was that brilliant?
Nick: Yeah.
John: And so it came out in June, which is when I started walking. So I started doing that and tracking the thumb thing. I'm earning frequent flyer points. And I worked, I think I, I walked about, I forget the distance. It's quite interesting. It says it in the app, but it rewards you, encourages you, and it was like cool well-being app. And I think I basically, you know, in the end I probably earned about 10,000 Quantas points or something, but I walked thousands of kilometers, and that was basically off the back of flying in reality. I wasn’t going to fly anytime soon, right?
Nick: And get a dog and put the device on the dog, and it can fly around the world.
John: Let’s try that. Cause it actually tracks, yeah…and the app right now wants to verify me. And so, yeah, but I think I looked at the numbers, it was thousands, because it also says if you walk this distance where would you get to? Like it says something like Paris or something, right? So when you actually start seeing how far you walk to the thousands of kilometers, and it's so…why is he a walking, you know, 5k a day or something like that. It wasn't a massive distance, but it adds up. So it reinforces the fact a little bit adds up to a lot.
Nick: Yeah, exactly. It's about doing it daily.
John: Yeah. Just those, those daily habits. So, what are you working on now? Obviously you've got that…you've got the media going and that's good because I mean, at the end of the day, once you get the media's attention, they tend to go after each other. Then, you know, once you get on one TV channel or radio show, they watch each other. So then suddenly they want you on their show. So that helps. So what's your kind of plan on that? We did some website stuff and stuff like…so what's your long-term plan here to sort of, as a movement?
Nick: Well, I need to repackage everything into something more positive, because while Executive Loneliness seems to be really getting the attention of the media and it stands out in social media articles, there's no organization really where the HR organization, we should go out and run an Executive Loneliness. We go campaign. It just too negative. So while I'm in the spotlight now it's not necessarily something that is positive. So I need to repackage everything. And I'm working in bed at the moment. How can I repackage this into resilience, emotional intelligence and about the happiness. That's what a project that I'm working on at the moment. So I'm trying to change this into a keynote, one day course. So basically learning since should be about being healthy and happy rather than the term Executive Loneliness.
John: Yeah. And I think that's the problem, right? So you've identified a problem, but if you don't identify a solution, then there's no, you know, everybody’s just running around doing nothing. So, I mean, by taking some action and I mean the book was never designed to sit there and depress the hell out of you. It was designed to say, “Okay, you've got a problem. How do you fix it?”, right? It wasn't designed to say, “Oh, I'm going to get you even more depressed because you've now discovered you've got this problem you didn't know you had.” But I think, yeah, I mean that mission of looking at and improving someone's situation, and yeah, it isn't, you know, I think the biggest problem with entrepreneurship is that it's a lonely job because your family and friends don't necessarily understand what the hell you're doing and why you’re doing it. Because they go, “This doesn't seem right. You're still, you're working longer and longer hours for less and less money. Why the hell are you doing this?”, right?
Nick: Yeah, that's exactly right. I'm working with a coach now. She is actually a…and she's done some great TEDx talks, and she's now writing a script for TEDx talks and public speaking. So just to have a coach to also talk you through that bit though is really, really helpful. Put yourself in the audience, your shoes, and think about the case, which is the audience. Who would you like to target this for? And then we're repackaging and trying to use as much of the material we can from the book, but also benefit from all the media exposure and so on and being in the spotlight. But yeah, just repackaging it and selling it in another way.
John: So yeah, going to try and get on TEDx?
Nick: Well, I will, I have to think about what is the new idea. So I haven't really came up with a new idea linked to this yet.
John: Cause it's interesting, because I've got a client, we've got a contact to get people on TEDx guaranteed or, or even get on the Ted. Ted takes a lot more work. TEDx is like a sort of a mini version of it. And you can get in easier. It's still hard, but Ted, you be ready to go to pitch. But one of the interesting things that happened with my client, he had to tighten this thing up to a 13- minute presentation and the amount of work that went into that to come up with that very nice package, every word counted, every pitcher counted. I think it's a really good exercise for anybody to do. Cause I think if you can't cut your whole thing down to 13 minutes and what you do, then that's a long conversation with a prospect, right? Like you've got to have, you've got to tell them a lot of things. So 13 minutes to really encapsulate your entire thing is tough, to keep and be engaging and entertaining at the same time, right? It can't just be some boring, like slideshow presentation. It has to actually have some sort of grit to it, right?
Nick: Exactly and how to remember all of it, then make it still authentic when you present it. That's all very challenging.
John: Yeah, I mean…Warrick, because he did two, he did one in Melbourne, and he did one in America, and he flew back the weekend that COVID hit. So he managed to just do it in time. He just got home and the COVID hit, and everything was shut down. So a week later and he would have been doomed. And one of the things he did was he actually recorded it. And then kept playing it back to himself and kept going and going to get that right. And so it is hard, but certainly it was worthwhile exercise. I think even if you even don't do a TEDx talk, right? I think just going through that exercise of getting it really tight and getting really rehearsed and what you do, because what I noticed with our public speakers is they have the same talk every time. So it's not like they are suddenly winning you something. That's their keynote talk. It's always the same. And I think most entrepreneurs think they've got to change it all the time and then that's creates confusion, and they end up in a situation where it's never really clear.
Nick: Yeah, that's right. I’ve given my keynote now probably around 30, 40 times, the next time is one time tomorrow and I don't change much. It might be one slide or one part of the presentation just to acknowledge, which is the audience, and try to find something which is, you can connect with them and get build some rapport. But that's it. You got to keep it the same.
John: And that's the thing about the message, right? If the message isn't clear and consistent then no one will ever get it and therefore you'll get nowhere with it. So, yeah, it's certainly something I find the most inappropriate folks struggle with. Cause they want to keep changing stuff, and it's dangerous because then no one not gets confused, and no one even understands what you're talking about then.
Nick: Yeah.
John: Cool. All right. So let's talk about your book, and I haven't had a copy of it just coincidentally as well. So there you go.
Nick: I’ve got one here, though.
John: You got the paperwork and the hard cover. There you go. Very good work. And you got some coming. I hope soon. It was probably in the boat soon. So basically you can get it on Amazon. You can pretty much get it wherever good books is sold. As well as you can go to your website and get it as well. At least in the digital version in the link. So, basically wherever you buy…you buy your books, you know, next book should be there. So, what's the best place to go to do that? I had down here nickjohnson.com. So we can put that up on the actual show notes that people can get to that.
Nick: Yeah, that's fine. And we also built a webpage for the book itself, which is executive lonelinessbook.com. And if someone goes to executivelonelinessbook.com, then you can see all the different sites that we can buy the book there.
John: Okay, cool. And there's also a book bonus that they can get as well. So, I mean, I probably should go there first and then find out and then get the book and then make sure they get the book bonus as well.
Nick: Definitely.
John: Cool. Well, thanks so much, Nick, for coming along. I think I really appreciate having a chat about bit, and I think it's a subject that as you said, no one wants to talk about, but since they start talking about it, they won't shut up about it. So that's it. It's a good, I think it's a good cause. And I really appreciate your time coming along.
Nick: Pleasure. And by the way, I have a gift also for the listeners. So can we kind of give them that.
John: Yeah, go for it, yeah.
Nick: Then we also have the community, lead is anonymous.com. So perhaps if we can share that, then we can give them a free membership. The basic membership there.
John: Cool. No worries. That's excellent. Good work. Glad you remember that. So we'll put that show notes up there as well, in terms of links and everything. So if you didn't get it on the audio, the video will be on the bottom of the page below. So that'd be great. All right.
Nick: Fantastic!
John: Excellent. Well, you have a great day and I hope your interview goes as well.
Nick: Thanks John. You have a good day too.
