Creating Balance Between Growth and Your Core Mission, with Michael Murdoch of Wauna Credit Union

[00:00:00] Josh DeTar: Welcome to another episode of the Digital Banking Podcast. My guest today is Michael Murdoch, the Marketing Manager for Wauna Credit Union and he's also the President of the YCUP or Young Credit Union Professionals PDX group. I've been really looking forward to having Michael as a guest since we started this podcast.
[00:00:22] And one of the reasons for that is I talked to so many credit unions on a daily basis who say, "We need more new members and more younger members." And my question back to them is always, "So what does that mean and how do you plan to do it? And quite frankly, how do you think technology can either help or hurt that plan?" As someone who consistently works with young credit union professionals,
[00:00:48] I think Michael's got some great advice for you. So, Michael, thanks for joining me today, sir.
[00:00:53] Michael Murdoch: Thank you for having me, Josh. I was just telling Josh a moment ago, our beards look the same, so [00:01:00] great chat on that. I think where it's like looking in the mirror right now, so I'm really glad to be here. 
[00:01:06] Josh DeTar: I mean, for you, it's like looking in the mirror and seeing just a slightly less good looking version of yourself, but, you know...
[00:01:12] Michael Murdoch: Here we go. Here we go. 
[00:01:13] Josh DeTar: It is also 'No-Shave November', so out to those participating. In all seriousness though, I really have been really looking forward to this episode with you.
[00:01:23] And, and it really is because, you know, I talked to so many credit unions who consistently say, you know, "We, we want to attract more millennials." I said, "Great, that's a great aspiration. Why do you want to do that? And how do you want to go about it?" And I'm going to be honest, I get a lot of blank stares back.
[00:01:44] And as somebody who represents that group, both internally and externally, I'm really excited to hear just some of your thoughts on what does it mean for credit unions to want to go out and attract younger members and how [00:02:00] should they be thinking about it?
[00:02:01] Michael Murdoch: Yes, that's a, that's an excellent question, it's an ongoing question. I don't see it being a struggle for credit unions, although we've almost turned it into a struggle. We call it 'The struggle of capturing younger demographics.' I think and we had a good conversation earlier, Josh, about this, I think ultimately at the end of the day, it's about
[00:02:21] knowing who your communities are, who are you serving. If you're obsessed with... Why are marketers so obsessed,
[00:02:29] we'll start there. Why are marketers so obsessed with finding millennials, right? I think at some point people lost kind of the 'why' and just started following what the trends were. Was that we are, we are going after young people? Young people are making up more and more of the populace of this planet.
[00:02:46] Young people are making more and more money than other segments and other groups. Young people are coming up with the new ideas, right? But at the end of the day, if that's the only thing that you're seeing, I think you might just be thinking of dollar signs and not [00:03:00] ultimately of who you could be putting into the right places within your credit union.
[00:03:04] I have a very similar story to yours. At one point I was struggling financially. I went to a credit union, I went to my credit union. They saw me as a person, they identified that I was a young person with maybe a little lack of financial understanding and they guided me the right way. That that's our, that's our philosophy, right?
[00:03:23] That's that's the, the almost ad nauseam we say it, but I love it, still is the people helping people. Are we people helping people if we say, "We need young members, how do we get them?" Because frankly, I'll bet you, Josh, that you often are approached by somebody who wants a technology because they believe it's going to target younger people
[00:03:44] and yet they don't really look at their membership and say, "Our young people in our areas?" We are we're in a very rural area and for a long time our leadership team kept saying, "Millennials, millennials, millennials." Only recently have we [00:04:00] shifted that, but we looked at our analytics at some point, I don't know why it took us so long,
[00:04:05] and we saw that millennials were the bulk of our membership. And we had to sit back and say, "Well, wait a minute. Why are we, are we still, is that still the tip? Is that, are we still fighting for and going after millennials? Is that what we need to be doing?" So at the end of a long answer to that, I would say that I don't think credit unions or most organizations really in any industry really fully understand to the degree that they need to be when they say, "We need more millennials." And that's not speaking for everybody. I, just would say that the teeter-totter is probably more heavy on the one side where folks are just saying it because they feel like that's what they have to be doing.
[00:04:50] Josh DeTar: I, you know, you made an interesting comment at the start of that that are you just chasing, we want more of these members because we feel like that's what [00:05:00] everybody's doing or it's the right thing to do. But you'd kind of alluded to the more important question is are those actually the members that we need to serve.
[00:05:08] You know, both of us have, and I think a lot of us in this industry have stories where we were personally impacted by a credit union, right? And so are we looking for the people that need that impact in their lives or are we just looking to grow arbitrarily? And I'm gonna throw a kind of a loaded bomb at you and I'll let you play with this one.
[00:05:29] I won't name any names, but I talked to a credit union, I don't know... I want to say late last year, early this year. And I asked him. I said, "You know, why are you looking at new digital banking solutions?" And they said, "Well, we want to grow. And we feel like we need to grow with younger generations and specifically millennials. They want technology.
[00:05:49] So we just want to offer better technology, so we'll attract them." 
[00:05:52] Michael Murdoch: They can't... 
[00:05:53] Josh DeTar: So, "Why are you looking to grow?" They said, "Well, because we're a X billion dollar shop [00:06:00] now and we want to be a $10 billion shop in this time period." And I was like, "Great, big aspiration. Why do you want to be 10 billion?" And the whole room went quiet.
[00:06:11] So, you know, for you what, what does that really mean for you when your credit union is saying, "You know, we need to look at how do we serve the community, not just a specific demographic?"
[00:06:26] Michael Murdoch: There is a very, there is a problem with, with the financial industry and growth and what that means. I think a lot of the times we lose sight of one of the original phrases of this, of this movement which is not for profit, but for service, right? We're not for profit, which means we're not trying to make money off of people.
[00:06:52] We have to keep the lights on and the more we grow, the more people we can help. Yes, that makes sense to me, absolutely. But if my [00:07:00] goal, yeah, if my goal is to be a $10 billion credit union and I can't tell you why that's my goal, then maybe my goals are misdirected right now. Maybe I'm not really paying attention to the people I'm serving, how I'm serving them and how I can serve them better.
[00:07:14] That's an excellent question to ask a credit union, "Why do you want to become a billion dollar credit union?" A lot of people get scared, they'll say, "Oh, well, we're scared that if we're not, we'll be taken over." That's valid. "We're scared that if we don't, we won't be able to, you know, pay our employees."
[00:07:28] Sure. That's valid. But remember at the core of most of our missions, it's about helping others, it's about helping people. And there's no way we can help others without helping ourselves. Again, I understand you've got to keep the lights on, but some of these larger credit unions... I almost named names, but I won't.
[00:07:46] When you get to a certain size, you lose a lot of that personality. You lose a lot of that individual nature of what it means to be a credit union. And that's, that's just the danger of growth that it comes with it. It's almost like the [00:08:00] lifecycle of any organizations. Once you get to a certain point, you become a little more faceless,
[00:08:04] you become a little more brand heavy. You become a little more about that the bottom line at the end of the day and a little less about who you're serving, which is always a dangerous thing. But as we've seen in this movement, credit unions have gone from thousands and thousands of credit unions and over, just since the nineties has been reduced by the number of shops we have significantly.
[00:08:27] And I know that a lot of that is the smaller shops being folded into other shops and not being able to withstand, withstand, sustain, excuse me, sustain themselves. But there are a lot of other things which are included in that factor, which is those large credit unions that are now paying their boards and are now buying smaller banks and are eating up smaller credit unions
[00:08:49] who've completely lost what their mission is. And I am not, I'm not saying that some of these CEOs wouldn't be able to sit me down and counsel me on the credit union philosophy. I'm [00:09:00] sure that they have that in their hearts, but sometimes when you get to a certain growth direction, that's all you can see and you become blinded.
[00:09:09] And when you start saying, "I want more millennials and I want technology to do it." Are you saying that because you want to grow and make money or you saying that because you want to grow and help people? 
[00:09:22] Josh DeTar: Yeah, it's a really interesting balance, right? And I will name one name, because I know I can. And I'll name it in the positive sense. You know, one of our customers is a $10 billion credit union Star One out of the Bay Area. And I can tell you as somebody who talks to their executive leadership team weekly as someone who's watched them over the years, they 'eat, sleep, breathe the credit union' motto. Like you go to their corporate headquarters and granted they sit on probably an extremely profitable piece of property because of their location
[00:09:56] and they've been there so long. But you know, their [00:10:00] offices haven't been updated in a while. Their internal team doesn't have these big high rise buildings they look out of. I don't remember the number, so I'm not going to use it, but you know, the amount of money they returned back to members last year and member benefit was one of the highest in the country.
[00:10:15] You know, they offer incredible services to their members. Like it's, it's very apparent that they act like a hundred million dollar credit union and the way they treat their members, they just do it on the scale of a $10 billion credit union. So it's possible, right? But I think to your point, the guiding light has to be right for that to happen.
[00:10:34] And so, as you're looking at growing and adding millennials, why is it because they're going to provide value to your institution that you'll be able to then return and value back to them and others or is it just arbitrarily 'I'm trying to attract this younger demographic,' right? And again, you know, you and the people that you associate with in YCUP are representative of that group that a lot of credit unions are trying to attract [00:11:00] and your both external and internal audit of the credit union.
[00:11:06] Michael Murdoch: Yeah. Oh, 100%. There's this awesome organization called Inclusive and their CEO, Jill Nowacki, who was actually one of the founders of YCUP PDX... Excuse me, wrong tube there. And one thing that that organization specializes in is recruiting young people into leadership roles. You were talking earlier about sometimes when you're speaking with vendors or really this happens everywhere. When some of those big decisions are made, they're made by an older, from an older perspective. They're made from somebody who's been doing this a long time, has a lot of wisdom has a lot of experience.
[00:11:42] We trust that decision that is made more often than not, right? Ultimately, the idea is that that the buck stops there at leadership and there they know what they're doing, but as everybody present at that table when those decisions are made and as everybody president present at that table, when that question, "Why [00:12:00] do we need more
[00:12:00] millennials?" is asked. Because I can tell you right now, if my parents were sitting with me and they said or I asked them, "Why would a credit union need more millennials?" They'd look at me like I was speaking in German. Like, "I don't know what you're... What do you mean? What, how are millennials different?" "I mean, they're not like us, but I..." You know, like, so we have to be able to understand when we want to grow, how we want to grow and what that really means. Because you're right,
[00:12:26] a lot of the people, the folks that I talked to especially in some of these YCUP groups, they don't, they don't have any clue what the direction of their credit
[00:12:34] union is going and why. They, you know, they know what they do and they're passionate about what they do, but they're not involved in any of those discussions.
[00:12:41] If there's a new building, they know about it, but if the, you know, there's a demand for their ratio, this ratio and this X and this variable to change, they're not in the know. They, they don't know what that means and I think that also affects their passion for the movement. [00:13:00] 
[00:13:00] Josh DeTar: Yeah, for sure. You know and I think I want to come back to what you were saying with, you know, that needing some additional diversity and just the decision making process. But before we get to that, you know, we got on this whole topic because, you know, a lot of times we hear people saying, "Well, we want more millennials and we think we need better technology to do that."
[00:13:22] So, what does that mean to someone who identifies as a tech savvy millennial, right? Is that actually, what's going to get you, you know, if you were to see the credit union down the street from you, all of a sudden did a digital banking conversion or a bill pay conversion or a core conversion and was on more modern technology? Would you be like, "Oh, you know what? Sign in our chase.
[00:13:45] Like these guys have cool digital banking now. They have mobile banking. I'm in, I'm moving." Like, is that really a driver for that demographic?
[00:13:54] Michael Murdoch: Yes and no. It's very dependent on what the offering is, how it's offered [00:14:00] and how exactly it makes your life easier. You know, right now everything it's about convenience and instant gratification. But no. If I, if I learned that the next door financial institution has now offering some sort of Zelle or Venmo thing, it's not going to make me want to drop everything and move over there.
[00:14:21] It's going to be enticing, but again technology is a tool, right? And a tool is put in the toolbox and the toolbox is available for the specific job. And I'm not saying technology is in the future. We all know that things are going to continue to become digital first. I think there's a lot of confusion about banks, closing branches.
[00:14:43] It's not a shift as a retreat, it's a shift in another direction. It's more digital, that's where they're pouring that money into, but in order for me as a consumer, a younger consumer to really be shifted, I need to see something that's instant gratification [00:15:00] and I need to believe in it and I need to know what exactly it does. The Chimes over the world and the Acorns
[00:15:07] and you know, there a lot of fintech startup app items. The Apple Card is, is, I mean, that's not a definitely not a startup, but everybody went to that because of the way they feel about the brand. Is that credit card really that different? No, it really isn't. I mean, it's awesome, it's very cool. And I, I would switch to it because it's metal, you know. There are certain things that you can grab me from another place without really selling any sort of bell and whistle.
[00:15:35] You can just say, "Hey, you've trusted me with your phone. Check this out. It's made of steel and we're not a bank." It's like, "Okay, cool." And not to make myself sound like a, "Okay, cool." But really that would, that doesn't entice me because it's different. It's not different, but it's different. It's different from everything I've ever known of a bank or credit union, which is, it's like the dentist office.
[00:15:59] I'm scared of [00:16:00] money. I don't like going in there. I don't want to talk to people. If it wasn't there, I would, I would think that they didn't exist, right? But at the end of the day, I keep saying that that's my phrase of the day. At the end of the day, you need to be able to understand what it is you're getting in order to really use it.
[00:16:16] And if you don't really understand it, you're not using it. And if you're not using it, new technology, which just kind of blankets that area, if you will. That's not, that's not going to sway people. It's just not. It's your personality, it's your brand, it's the, it's how you treat the community and it's how your services have helped people.
[00:16:35] And that's an ongoing battle. It really, really is. 
[00:16:41] Josh DeTar: Yeah, I think it makes for a really interesting battle, right? Because it is this battle of convenience versus almost personal social responsibility. 
[00:16:52] Michael Murdoch: Exactly. 
[00:16:53] Josh DeTar: I feel like I see a lot of that in the younger generations and even the generations below us, right? [00:17:00] Yeah, we, we do get really enticed by convenience. And making something super easy and seamless,
[00:17:07] but if we're going to make big moves, it seems like one of the big drivers tends to be, "Well, how does this, how does this impact my community?" Seriously I can't remember who I was talking. I was talking to somebody recently and they made a comment about how, their son who is in early college years, was totally picking businesses and companies to start building relationships with around how much did he see them in the press doing things that were positive.
[00:17:41] And did he see, "Oh, this company posted their quarterly earnings. This company posted that they cleaned up a park. I'm going to go work with the company that cleaned up the park." So. 
[00:17:53] Michael Murdoch: Ethical... 
[00:17:54] Josh DeTar: What are millennials want?
[00:17:58] Michael Murdoch: Sorry. I kept talking over you there. [00:18:00] Ethical social behavior is a huge piece of it. I know Cameron Madill has been on your show before and he talks big about social responsibility being one of the biggest drivers for younger people, because it's true. You do see that shift. Oliver Peoples Glasses, Toms Shoes, Salt & Straw.
[00:18:17] Some of these places that actually match profit per profit with giving to, you know, a certain underserved community. Or like you said, they, they go there, their whole team, their leadership team is out picking up a park or that one credit union you see is now at their teaching financial education at the jail.
[00:18:35] You know, you're going well. They're going out of their way to be different in our community. And the best part about credit unions in that respect is we already have the tools to do that because we're not for profit, we give back to our members already. So you have to identify where are you showing that you're financially, excuse me, that you're responsible in your, in your community and [00:19:00] highlight that before you take on a technology to highlight a potential product that you're trying to sell. You can do both and they can marry well, if they're done right,
[00:19:08] but at the end of the day, like you said... See there it is again, at the end of the day, as you, as you said earlier, when I'm looking for a new, I don't know a new business relationship, no matter what it is. If I am researching them and I'm just peeking at it,... Oh, that's the other thing. A lot of young people do a lot more research these days on before they purchase a, a backpack or a, they really do look at those product reviews.
[00:19:33] I mean, now those are getting a little outdated and product reviews aren't always as trustworthy, but they definitely want
[00:19:40] to know who they're doing business with. And in the anonymous world of Amazon that is changing. So and it already has changed. So yeah, if I see that Toms Shoes which aren't particularly attractive to me, but I, I see that they donate every for every sale to a small country in Africa,
[00:19:58] that that's gonna get [00:20:00] me. I'm going to say, "Heck yeah, that's awesome. I just want to support that."
[00:20:07] Josh DeTar: So how does that play into the types of technology decisions that credit unions are making? How, how can you make technology decisions that enable you to do more of what consumers want to see you do as a credit union?
[00:20:24] Michael Murdoch: Do your research. I think data is still one of the best things that you have at your disposal. We pride ourselves on knowing our membership, right? The larger you get, that's harder to do. But that's still one of the things that people will say when you talk to folks on the street, "I have a better idea of credit units at the most."
[00:20:44] They'll say, "Oh, I love that branch. Every time I go in, they know my name." So how would I target that person with that tool from that toolbox? Do I have a lot of folks like that in most of our areas, which are mostly rural? Yes. Most of our folks, they like to come [00:21:00] into the branch. It's changing, we're now seeing more folks going online than they are in branch, but I do have to blame this pandemic that's going on right there, but that's also a good thing 'cause that's where we're going. But at the same time, I'm also getting to know my members on a different level. So if I'm looking at technology and I'm seeing something that coordinates with our lending program to offer very, very small loans down to 50 bucks, and that's the tech technological solution that I can implement, that I know my members are asking for or I'm seeing a lot of predatory lending in my area, like payday loans,
[00:21:36] that would be a great piece of technology. I love starting small. I love identifying little problems that can change the narrative, right? There was a New York mayor years ago in New York City, not that they've ever really been that amazing when it comes to crime and poverty, but he said, "You know what? I'm going to start small."
[00:21:55] And what he did was he started really targeting the folks that were jumping onto the [00:22:00] subway and not paying. And it created this ripple effect where the graffiti was down, homelessness changed, crime change, and he just started small. And I'm not saying that that's the philosophical solution to this, I'm just saying if you're going to implement technology, you've clearly identified a problem.
[00:22:16] But is that problem, it's something you've identified or something that your membership identified and you're answering now.
[00:22:22] Josh DeTar: Before we talk about what technology and expectations younger consumers really have, you made a comment that I've actually been dying to talk to somebody about. And it was, you know, talking about offering smaller loans and easier ways for, you know, people to get access to the capital they need just to live.
[00:22:47] But what's interesting is I, I had a friend send me a meme recently from I want to say it was a, a Twitter account or something that was about like poor financial decisions. And [00:23:00] the meme was, you know, the companies like Affirm that offer quick financing on websites, right? Apparently there were, there were two companies that got called out in specific in this poor financial decisions meme thread that offered the ability for you to finance their products.
[00:23:18] And one of them was for a pair of underwear, so you could make 10 payments of like a dollar and 12 cents to buy a pair of underwear or the other one was Domino's Pizza. You could finance a pizza. And I was just dying over here going, "Oh my goodness." Like I, again, I get that we, we want to make, you know, we want to make it possible and convenient and simple for people to be able to get access to things.
[00:23:47] But man, if you're at a place where you're having to finance a pair of underwear, like we need to be thinking about, like you said, we need to go solve a different problem. And that's where I think credit unions have a real opportunity.
[00:23:59] Michael Murdoch: [00:24:00] Yeah. And, you know, Josh, I'm seeing that more and more and more. Not to get off topic, but I was at Macy's of all places online and I was buying these pants for max, actually. I wanted to, you know, refresh my wardrobe and before I checked out, a thing popped up and said, "Make this in three payments of 27,99." And I'm going, "What? I'm, I'm financing my pants now?"
[00:24:22] And it's zero interest. Free, you know, it's through this vendor, this Klarna, I think it was called. I did not use it, so I don't know what the experience was like, but all that the vendor needs to do is up the price of the pants and so you're actually paying for that finance. But is that solving a problem for me or is it creating a problem for me?
[00:24:41] So I think there's also to your point very much... There's a lot that it seems like we don't fully understand, which is the ongoing journey of life, right? But at the same time, you know, not knowing something can be scary and it can be even scarier if we're [00:25:00] not trying to find out something that we don't know. 
[00:25:04] Josh DeTar: Well, I think this all goes back to the whole kind of social conscience element of it too, right? So I actually used this example in a recent podcast and I think it's really relevant to this conversation again, so apologize if you listened to both episodes you get to hear the story twice. But, you know, my wife and I were looking at getting a treadmill for the house because we realized with both of us completely working from home, no travel, we very rarely leave the house.
[00:25:29] And with winter upon us here in the Pacific Northwest it's hard to get out and get your steps in when it's dumping rain. So my wife had been doing a ton of research on different treadmills and looking at new and used options and yada yada yada. So finally she kind of came to the conclusion that she really liked and wanted to do the treadmill from Peloton.
[00:25:49] So I started doing some of my own research on it after that, as far as, you know, getting it ordered, et cetera. So I go onto their website and I see that they offer multiple different [00:26:00] purchasing options. And so now I went into total work mode, right? And now I'm just curious to see how this all works, what options there are,
[00:26:07] so exactly they have this option to buy through affirm. And I was like, "You know what? I'm just super curious. Like I want to see what this process is like." Here's what's crazy. I clicked it to see what the option was and because I was already signed into my Peloton account, it bought it. It was like, "You're approved.
[00:26:26] We bought it. Your treadmill will be here on Friday." And I just started laughing and I literally yelled up to my wife, Michael. And I was like, "Hey, apparently we just bought the Peloton tread." She was like, "What?" I was like, "Yeah. I wanted to see what this whole affirm option was." And I was like, literally it was so frictionless,
[00:26:42] I didn't even realize that ordered the darn thing, right? So, okay, great. It gave me access to get health and fitness exercise equipment, not a terrible thing, right? And maybe if I couldn't have afforded it in the first place I could afford the low monthly payments and the zero interest is fantastic. But are we [00:27:00] also setting people up to all of a sudden, "Well, now I have my treadmill on that.
[00:27:05] Well, now I need a pair of pants and a pair of underwear and a pizza." And all of a sudden, you know, I'm $6,000 a month in monthly expenses and I can't afford it and now I'm getting repositions and you name it. So are we also putting the financial fate of our young people especially in the hands of big corporations that at the end of the day just want to sell more product.
[00:27:30] "Hey, if I can make it easier for you to buy a Peloton tread, I'm gonna sell more Peloton treads." Instead of asking you to fork over a couple of grand, "Hey, pay 50 bucks a month for the next 12 years. You know, no big deal." 
[00:27:42] Michael Murdoch: I know that I had...
[00:27:44] Josh DeTar: I don't know. I, I struggle with that honestly.
[00:27:47] Michael Murdoch: No, I, I guess I, I, I have one question for you and then I'll go into kind of my response. So what was that experience like? Did you feel good after that experience initially? There was it [00:28:00] like, "Oh, that feels great. That's awesome. I might use that again?" 
[00:28:05] Josh DeTar: Yeah. I mean, I, I'm a terrible use case here, right? It was totally from a work thought mindset of like, "I want to see exactly what this experience is like." So I was actually more ticked off than anything because I was like, "Oh my gosh. Like you know how many people are going to get screwed into buying this treadmill that they can't afford?"
[00:28:22] Like that was where my head went, but I will say if I had just been an end consumer, that was like, "Man, I can't afford one of these and I really want one." And had realized that I had had access to that through this program, I probably would have been pretty elated. And it was so incredibly simple like I said, that I bet you my abandonment would have been really low.
[00:28:41] And in minutes I would've had the euphoric, you mentioned it at the very beginning, right? Instant gratification.
[00:28:47] Michael Murdoch: And there's nothing that brings levity quicker to folks today, mostly anyway, than having that frictionless, immediate gratification and from what I'm gathering, because [00:29:00] I'm not really looking at what it's doing, I'm to myself and to my pocketbook, I can afford it, right? So these companies and this, this method, if you will,
[00:29:10] is convincing you that you can do it, that you can do anything. You can be anyone, you can, of course you can do that, but it takes work and that's the problem. Is I love, there's a line of Jurrasic, a Jurassic Park where Jeff Goldblum was talking about. You, you came up with an idea, you stood on the shoulders of great people and then you just did it.
[00:29:28] And now you've got a label on it and you're selling it. It's like, well, there is a piece to this that has a psychology, a physiology and psychology to it that we cannot look past in order to make sure that we're serving people correctly. Because what's the next thing, a 30 year mortgage that's $60 a month and but you're not looking at a, you know, 75% interest rate? Like you can afford a house, if you can afford $60 a month. It's like, "Hey, your house will be [00:30:00] delivered next week." It's like, "Okay." Well, yeah, that's going to put somebody into a serious hole and they're going to have been convinced from countless of hours of seeing, "Oh, I could get this.
[00:30:11] I could afford that. I can get that. I'm going to be okay." To, like you said, "My accounts are drained. I'm in foreclosure. Luckily I still have my treadmill." You know, it's, it's a, it's a, that's a vision that can turn into a very vicious cycle. And that's another area where credit unions do need to see the potential, not just the power of some of the technology and how they're applying it to what they do and how they do it.
[00:30:38] That is not a, I'm not saying that these technologies and these initiatives are inherently bad, I'm just saying that if you're not doing it right, if you're not sharing this with the person that it can help, that it can really help actually actually help, then you're probably not paying enough attention to what it is you're buying. [00:31:00] 
[00:31:01] Josh DeTar: Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, you could, if Wauna just wanted to bring in a ton more members real fast, you could find a technology company to make it so that you can put, you know, zero interest financing on all sorts of websites, powered through Wauna and I can go in and buy my pizza financed by Wauna.
[00:31:25] "Great, I'm now a Wauna member." But are you really accomplishing the credit union mission by doing that? Sure, you book more loans. You've got more people in, but are you really serving that community? 
[00:31:39] Michael Murdoch: And what kind of... 
[00:31:39] Josh DeTar: Mean, if your community loves pizza and can't afford it, yeah. 
[00:31:42] Michael Murdoch: Yeah and underwear, right? But also what kind... 
[00:31:46] Josh DeTar: Yeah.
[00:31:47] Michael Murdoch: What kind of members are we creating? I mean, you and I both have a similar story regardless of circumstance of how we came to a credit union and how a credit unit helped us and how that set us off off on a [00:32:00] different, more positive, healthier financial journey, right?
[00:32:04] How are, how are we helping members if we're giving them instant gratification, when it comes to financing things? Are we giving them the right education? Are we, is that the right message to be sending? I could pull on, you know, what 2000 members Josh, with some of these initiatives by buying this technology and putting it out there
[00:32:21] and yeah we have loans, but what if 30% of those are in foreclosure in the next few years? That, we've we've harmed people and we've harmed ourselves. So it it's
[00:32:34] again, it's, it's really, you really have to know what you're going for at the end of the day. It's there it is, again, we need to start, we should take shots of wheatgrass every time I say 'at the end of the day.'
[00:32:45] Anyway, but is it the dollar sign? Yeah. Is it the dollar sign you're after, or is it that service? So. 
[00:32:54] Josh DeTar: Yeah. You know, and that again, kind of brings us back to the start of so, w what, uh, millennials [00:33:00] actually want? Like, what are they actually looking for and specifically in technology from their financial institutions? And I think that target is even changing. You know, just looking at, you know, what is happening with digital transformation as a whole, not just in banking, but in banking. You know, how are things like neobanks affecting it, but how has even just our interactions with traditional brick and mortar versus digitally changing the expectations that we have.
[00:33:30] And then especially specifically in the financial ancestry, you know, how our changes directly in our industry impacting what our younger consumers want. And, you know, you had made a comment before we started recording about how crypto represents potentially a really big disruptor in that sense, right?
[00:33:49] So I think my question to you is just what are you seeing from the people that you talk to and your own personal experience of, you know, what are people really looking [00:34:00] for and what are the changes that are impacting what they think they want?
[00:34:05] Michael Murdoch: That's an excellent question. And I do have to give a little caveat here because that is a, the answer is a working answer and it's not necessarily a solid answer. And it's, it's very fluid. It's very dynamic right now because I don't think that we even understand the impact of a lot of our technologies. You know, ever since the aliens gave us technology,
[00:34:28] ever since some of these technological advancements came out especially when it comes to cryptocurrencies and fintechs, I don't think that we've really understood fully what the impact could potentially be. Be that a positive one, a largely, or could it disrupt the entire spectrum of the world's economy?
[00:34:48] I don't, you know, I th I don't have the answers to those. And I, I think that also leads me down that path of young people, I don't know if they know what they want. I don't know if they're prepared to understand what these new [00:35:00] things are, because we're expensive experiencing these new things just like our baby boomers, just like any other segmentation is experiencing them when they've been
[00:35:08] so, when everybody has been so used to certain processes for so long. I mean, a lot of practices in the financial industry it's antiquated. 'We've, we've always done it this way' is a big part of the financial future of, of the world. But as we come up with these new solutions, it's been, it's becoming harder and harder for us to say, "Is that a good idea
[00:35:33] or does it just look beautiful and it's supposed to do these amazing things?" And I think that circles circles us back a little more to are we serving our members the way they need to be served, are we using the right tools or are we just getting it because it's the newest fanciest thing and it's supposed to do this, you know? I mean, as a marketer and I know it's, you're tasked with this constantly, I've got to sell, you know. I've got to sell [00:36:00] what I'm showing, but I can't sell it with, with, you know, with a, I can't put my whole heart into it if I don't understand it.
[00:36:08] And if I don't know that it's going to protect or even improve my member's life, because otherwise I'm, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm playing the flute for, for cobras. I don't know. I'm not, I'm not actually doing anything. I'm just putting money in my own pocket, right? So in the future we have to be very aware of how some of these items are going to affect us.
[00:36:32] You know, I do see digital currency becoming a more widespread thing that we will use. I do see brick and mortar slowly, slowly changing. I do see us being able to do everything on a device. I, that might even be, it will be insane, but that might even be some sort of wearable device or an implant or something that's on your head 24/7 that does everything for you because we've become so [00:37:00] lost in that instant gratification.
[00:37:01] And that's in that what's next and what's easiest and what can make the most money that before we know it, we're the people on the ship in WALL-E, you know? So it's, it's a very difficult, it's a great question, but a very difficult one to answer because I don't think the answers exist quite yet. And we need to be aware of that.
[00:37:24] We need to be aware.
[00:37:27] Josh DeTar: I think that's a really good point of it is a really shifting target. But at least being aware of it and then having the right people as a part of your organization to be able to see those things, watch what's happening, look into the future the best we can, right? Nobody's got a crystal ball, but and then having people with a voice and a seat at the table to talk about different ideas of what that's going to mean and what things need to change there at the [00:38:00] institution.
[00:38:00] I mean, I've probably said this so many times people are annoyed of it. I will say I've said it more than you've said 'at the end of the day'. So at least that makes us even there. I absolutely hate the answer, "Well, that's how we've always done it." 
[00:38:15] To me that should be one of your biggest red flags. We talk about that a lot internally for us
[00:38:21] and anytime I'm talking to one of our customers or prospective customers and I ask, even simple things, right? Like, "How do you do transfers in digital banking today?" I'm like, "Oh, this way." Okay, "Well, why? Is that because that's what works really well for your members?" "Oh no, this is just how we've always done."
[00:38:38] Great. Let's put a pin in that one and come back to it because... That means it's probably not right. Maybe, maybe is. Totally. There's a good chance that it's not right anymore. 
[00:38:50] Michael Murdoch: Don't fix it. 
[00:38:52] Josh DeTar: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, how do you bring more people into the [00:39:00] organization and get them involved in those conversations
[00:39:02] so that we have more, quite frankly, diversity in thought and opinion in what, what are the things that our credit union needs to be doing to better service our community? And what does that mean from things like technology choices? So how do you recruit, retain and get that going into a credit union?
[00:39:23] Michael Murdoch: Another excellent questions. You're you're giving me the hard ones. I think something you can do right now, today, your shop can do, is start involving your frontline in decision-making processes. First, they'll need to be a part of the understanding of what that process or processes look like. Invite, you know, you can decide how you choose with whom you'd like to work regarding your frontline or your younger employees, but start with one person. Bring them to ALCO, show them what that, how that works.
[00:39:57] Let them sit in a board meeting. I know that's a big [00:40:00] no-no, but let them see that process. They did, they can just sit back as an impartial observer, let them be a part of some of the decision-making when you're in your steering committee meeting. Let them say, let the CEO say, "Hey Susie Q. or Michael T. what do you think?
[00:40:15] Like honestly, what do you think here? And we're not throwing you under the bus. Don't feel like you're making a decision for the whole credit union, but I honestly want your opinion on this specific decision, which could change the face of the credit union."
[00:40:30] I don't like employee surveys. I don't like CEO listening tours.
[00:40:36] I don't like these programs that are put together just by management and leadership that say, 'How do we better engage our youth?' when they are never part of that conversation, that makes no sense to me. That is like trying to work with a crystal ball, you know? I don't see that being a productive use of your time,
[00:40:54] if you're honestly one of the ones saying, "We need younger men members, you know, we need younger people." When it [00:41:00] comes to recruitment, I don't think that there's anything wrong with a credit union that gets super involved with local chapters, local YCUP groups, local young professional groups. I don't think that there's any reason, I'm going to call this shop out because I love them. Larry, at Consolidated, they are super supportive and, and they sponsor YCUP quite a bit. There are a lot of great organizations that that do. And what that does is every now and then I'll see a YCUP attendee that's, "Hey, got a new, I see it on LinkedIn, got a new job over at Consolidated."
[00:41:33] That's a great shop and I think that's part of it, but I do think that the awareness level comes from a, "Well, this credit union actually cares about what my decision is." And I'm not, I'm not just speaking in broad term, I'm not, I'm not trying to say that credit unions don't think about this. I'm not trying to say that there's that CEO tour listening tours are wrong, or employee surveys are wrong,
[00:41:55] I'm not saying that anything that any of this is wrong. I'm just saying that [00:42:00] there are certain ways that we can better show our younger communities that we're listening to them, that we see them and that we hear them. I want to say that 80% of the products and services that we market, we aren't thinking about young people when we do it. Instead we're thinking about how can we get more financial education into the schools, not how can we grow their financial future beyond that.
[00:42:22] So, that's another uphill battle, but it's something I'm very passionate about.
[00:42:28] Josh DeTar: You know, I, one of the things I love as I had a guest on the show a while ago, Mark Sommer from Promedica Credit Union. And it was one of the things that he talked a lot about. And he said, you know, 'cause I asked him, I said, "Look, as, as somebody from the outside in, I perceive your quite frankly, small credit union to be quite innovative, especially
[00:42:51] not even just for your size, just period, you seem to be pretty innovative. You seem to be very thoughtful about what you do. You seem to have good answers to the 'why' [00:43:00] like what has created that culture at your organization?" And his response was, he said, "We involve everybody." 
[00:43:06] He's like, "I can't tell you how many times I've had, you know, a new teller walk into my office with an idea." He's like, "And we have always developed a culture of rewarding that.
[00:43:17] And, you know, on the flip side, I can't tell you how many times we've had credit unions that we've talked to that have said, you know, "We're, we're looking at digital banking again." And I say, "Well, why?" And they said, "Well, our current vendor just doesn't work well for us or, you know, help us accomplish the goals that we're looking for."
[00:43:34] And I say, "You know, why? Did you just not have a great relationship with them?" And a lot of times what I hear is they say, "Well, no. The executive team picked them based on X, Y, and Z. We were never involved in the process. We just get to implement it. 
[00:43:48] And they're not who we would have picked, because they don't work well with our team that'll work well with our objectives.
[00:43:52] They don't work well with our mission and our strategy. And so this time we're involved." And I do, I love it [00:44:00] when I see when we're talking to a credit union and they're looking at digital banking and the very first demo going through introductions, and somebody says, "Yeah, you know, my name's Josh and I'm from the call center.
[00:44:12] I field calls, all day. It's my job." I'm like, "Dude, that's awesome. What's up? You're probably going to have some of the best insight into what your members actually want. Like, this is phenomenal. Like this is a cool credit union. You guys know what's up." You know, so to your point, I think just engaging people, getting people in and saying, "Hey, you, you are literally the face of our credit union.
[00:44:35] You're the ones talking to our members. You probably are representing that younger demographic that we want more of, or that we at least want to know what they want, so as involve you in the process."
[00:44:48] Michael Murdoch: Call it frontline, it's a military term for the very front of the line of action, which means that the frontline is seeing the most action. They're the ones that know the face [00:45:00] of the battle, so to speak, and not to get too dark with it. But you said something that really hit me, a new core for example, that's ultimately a board and a leadership decision, right?
[00:45:09] And they're the ones that will do the due diligence and figure it out, but what you said really hit me because I've had experience with this many times, is that all of a sudden the door opens and then something's thrown on your desk and it says, "This is the program you're going to be working with every single day with our members.
[00:45:23] Put it into place and start using it. We know, it's going to be great." And I say, "I literally have no idea what this is. Okay, so now I have to learn it. I have to implement it. And somehow it's supposed to make my relationship with my member easier and better. All right, you got it, boss. Where, where where's the where's... there's a little problem there.
[00:45:44] There's a little bit of a miscommunication. A little bit of a, well, wait a minute. I wasn't part of this decision. So why am I the one that's implementing and using it?" And a lot of young people will ask those questions, but they'll be too scared to ask an organization that doesn't involve them. They'll assume they're not part of the equation.
[00:45:59] [00:46:00] Thus, there are what I like to call renters, they're just there for the paycheck. They could care less about the mission and that's what you've created in a, in a staff member. And that's really sad. So heck yeah, for Josh who is from the call center and you know what? I will give advice for young people possibly listening to this, "Get yourself involved."
[00:46:20] If they're not involving you, reach out to your supervisor and say, "Hey, I'd like to sit in on one of these. Is that possible?" I would guarantee 9 out of 10 times your CEO will say, "Yes, absolutely. I would love to have you." They've got so many other things that they're working on right now, sometimes
[00:46:37] unfortunately it just, they just don't think about it. That's not anybody's fault, but if you're sitting back and you have ideas and you're not speaking out, nobody's coming to you and you feel like you're unheard, say something. People will listen. Credit unions are inherently good and you know, it might even show you that maybe you're not at the right shop that you need to look for somewhere else, but your voice does matter.
[00:46:58] And I love how many [00:47:00] examples you brought up today, Josh, about of credit unions who've included people, everybody, that have had successes with that because of this very clued, true the proof is in the pudding, so they say. And I do think that if you want to be heard and you're not being called on, you need to stand up and get on your soapbox, say a few things.
[00:47:22] Josh DeTar: You know, my single favorite event every single year is the YCUP CEO Roundtable event. 
[00:47:29] Michael Murdoch: Oh yeah. 
[00:47:30] Josh DeTar: This, this tiny little event, usually, what, 12 CEOs that kind? 
[00:47:35] Michael Murdoch: Yup, yup, 
[00:47:37] Josh DeTar: Get maybe 30, 40 young credit union professionals. And they get a chance to just sit down and speed date all the CEOs. 
[00:47:47] Michael Murdoch: Yep. 
[00:47:48] Josh DeTar: And ask them questions. Man,
[00:47:50] I'll tell you what. It is some of the best, sit back, eat popcorn thing that I participate in every year. And it's because it is so [00:48:00] cool to see the types of questions that these young professionals bring to the table. And I think it is an exact, an exact display of what you were just saying. Like they have things to say, they have good questions to ask. Because I saw it on both sides of that,
[00:48:16] you know, I see the young professionals sitting down with the CEO they're asking really interesting, really deep, thoughtful questions about the strategic mission and direction and objectives of the credit union. And then they also give really good ideas. That they're like, "Hey, you know, I I've seen this elsewhere or I really love this.
[00:48:37] And it just it'd be super cool if our credit union did that or thought about it." And it's really cool to see the way the CEOs respond and react to that. And I think that's a really cool thing that the YCUP group facilitates. And it'd be really interesting to see some credit unions even take that logic into just their own credit union and give, give that frontline staff, give the entire organization the [00:49:00] ability to ask questions, to be a part of major, you know, decision-making processes and, you know, selections of things like technology that exactly like... You know, your front line staff, your call center is going to field all the calls on conversion day.
[00:49:17] I really hope they're bought in and they like the vendor that you picked. 
[00:49:21] 'Cause if they don't, their tone of voice is going to be totally different on the call, "Hey, man, this is just, you know, I'm really sorry member, like our CEO pick this digital banking. I know it sucks. We're just, you know, just bear with us, we're going to try and get it better in a couple of weeks.
[00:49:40] It probably won't, I'm just really hoping you won't call me back." Versus, "You know what? Hey, I, you know, we're going through some struggles or maybe it's new, but I'm super stoked to help you out about this and to get you into it because you know what? Like I know that our organization really cared about who we pick because we have this really grand vision of what we're going to do for you as a member.
[00:49:59] And [00:50:00] I'm really excited to tell you about that." Like, those are two very different phone calls with them.
[00:50:04] Michael Murdoch: Josh, you're going to make me cry. Yes, that is absolutely what we want. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the story or even witnessed it when a staff member is maybe not on board with something and they were never asked about it, but they are... You know, their arms are twisted into making it work and then they're asked why it's not worth working,
[00:50:26] you know, and they were never part of the decision. When they're working with, with, a frustrated member who says, "This is the fifth time this hasn't worked" and they said, "Yeah, oh, I know I hear you, I don't get it either." You know, I always like that makes me wince. A, they weren't part of the conversation that put it into place,
[00:50:44] so they have no real reference B, they're using it, they're a member too. They're seeing all the issues that they were never told about it, never had a thought, you know, include. So they're also experiencing the troubles. So they're not empathizing with a member on the level that you're hoping they're [00:51:00] empathizing with.
[00:51:01] They're empathizing with them as a human, which your leadership couldn't even do with you, so why would you want to empathize with them back? So it's, it does definitely. I, I loved how you put that because it's absolutely true. And then yeah, in that one thing I wanted to say about the CEO Roundtable is I now have CEOs who will email me asking me, are they going to be invited next year
[00:51:21] or why didn't I get invited this time, because there, they are always taking away ideas and they love coming to them because they always walk away with something. That's not something that the CEO came up with and said, "Hey, YCUP, you should do this." It was started by frontline. It started by young professionals that said, "We want to see what other shops are doing.
[00:51:42] And we're, we, it never seems like we're allowed to, or that we, we can't, or that we don't know what to ask." And within a few years of doing it, it's become a lot of people's favorite event. Again, it's, it's about listening to what your staff, who are also internal members, their members, what they need to. [00:52:00] If you can't do that, how are you going to listen to your members,
[00:52:02] you know? 
[00:52:04] Josh DeTar: Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a tough, it's a tough order though, right? I mean, because you have to balance it with the you can't invite every single employee and give them every single opportunity to challenge every single decision. Like there's gotta be a certain level of hierarchy to it. You know, just from an efficiency standpoint and sometimes you just gotta be able to make a decision, even if it's the wrong one.
[00:52:23] You know, one of the things that I've learned a lot about over the last couple of years. So our CEO was at Intel for I think, over a decade. And he was at Intel during the Andrew Grove days when Andrew Grove, was the CEO of Intel during some of their most explosive growth. And Andy is credited as one of those CEOs
[00:52:46] that's in a lot of literature and referenced as being just a very intelligent leader who structured the organization in a very specific way to be able to grow the way that it did. And the way Siva describes it is a very flat [00:53:00] structure. Look, yes, we have hierarchy. We have, you know, senior leadership. We have, you know, management, we have et cetera, but you know, Andy always said, "Hey, you know what?
[00:53:11] If you find a problem and the person above you that's supposed to solve the problem isn't solving the problem, just come into my office. Come to tell me. But if you tell me that you found a problem, you better tell me you found the answer too or at least you have an idea of where to start." And so I think it's, it's building that culture of making it so that people feel like they have a voice, but you got to come prepared.
[00:53:41] Michael Murdoch: Yeah. that's, that's a pretty common thing. And in my leadership style, I I've come to the point where I, and not to sound like a tyrant unacceptable might not be the right word, but I've, I've definitely found it unacceptable to any longer, just bring problems. Because that's [00:54:00] what I think staff that don't felt that they're heard,
[00:54:03] that's all they'll end up bringing. They'll just bring problems that they see. There's a problem here. There's a problem here. There's no real solution though. And that's where it's, it's definitely. I, I, I totally hear that because if you're going to bring a problem, bring a potential solution with it or tell me where you think the problem is originating so that we could look at it better.
[00:54:23] Don't just come... because otherwise it's just a complaint. And our jobs aren't really just to complain, you know. Our jobs are to solve the problems that our members bring to us. And so we're constantly those financial first responders and if we're just bringing problems to each other without solutions then it's bedlam. And you're right,
[00:54:45] there does need to be a hierarchy. I've seen a lot of employee resource groups that have come together that create like leadership paths or, you know, things that people can volunteer for who might already be identified as having that passion, who are younger, and then they, they, [00:55:00] you know, they have access to those certain meetings or they... And then when they graduate, they have a certain reward to them.
[00:55:07] But, I'm jumping all over the place there, but yeah, I love that. But if you bring a problem, bring bring a potential solution.
[00:55:16] Josh DeTar: Yeah. Well, and that comes back to what you had mentioned earlier of, you know, wanting to also have some diversity in thought and just the demographics that you have that represent seats at the table, too, right? So if you can't involve every single person at your organization, you try and cover as many of the groups as you can,
[00:55:36] so you get some differences in thought. Because you know, if everybody brings you the same idea, then you're always going to march down that same path. But if you have people that bring challenging ideas or thoughts or perspectives, I think I'm willing to say personally, I think that's where you're going to see a lot of opportunity happen.
[00:55:56] Michael Murdoch: Yeah, 100%. I could not agree more. [00:56:00] I think that there's a lot of power in what you just said. And I think while it's not necessarily the easiest solution to implement, I think it contains some of the easiest components to put into play now. 
[00:56:18] Josh DeTar: Yeah. Yeah. And if you want to come all the way full circle, so I think what you're trying to tell me here, Michael, is if you want to make smart technology decisions about the things that the actual people that you want as your members and your new members, if you want to bring them the things that they actually want, involve your staff, involve your people, involve those people that are part of your organization that are younger and get their opinion.
[00:56:44] "Hey, we're thinking about that we want to grow in this segment. Let's grab the people in our workforce that represent that segment." Let's say, "Hey, what do you guys actually care about? What can we do? Oh, you're millennials. [00:57:00] And you want better digital banking technology. Great. Then let's look at digital banking and let's actually involve you in the process.
[00:57:05] Let's have you guys write the RFP. Let's have you guys sit in on demos." Is it actually something that you'd want or is it just something that you think young people would want?
[00:57:16] Michael Murdoch: Yep. No, I, that, that is what I'm saying. I, think you can go even further when you're looking at those demographics of not just your internal members, but your external members to look even a little further. And that's why I bring back data with all the diversity initiatives that are happening more and more.
[00:57:32] I think that it's important to apply technology there as well. There's some great organizations out there that are wanting to hire on more bilingual folk, for example. Are they just hiring because folks are bilingual or are they hiring because those folks really do represent a segment that you're trying to better help?
[00:57:49] Just because you're bilingual, maybe you come from Mexico, but just because you speak Spanish, doesn't mean that you come from Mexico. You know, there are 33 plus countries, [00:58:00] south of the border and they're all different countries. If I said, "Oh, I understand you, that you're American because I speak English. But I'm from Liverpool,
[00:58:08] am I going to understand your way"... And then we're also by state, you know? So you can really break it down even further to really make sure that you're asking the right questions when you're identifying the folks who you do want to help you grow a and be, be open to being available to different types of people.
[00:58:28] I mean, we serve individuals, right? We don't serve blocks of sheep. We serve individual people with different beliefs, different ideas, different thoughts. And if we aren't taking those into account somehow, I mean, that's the magic potion right there is to be able to take everybody's idea and thoughts and opinions into account.
[00:58:47] You just can't do it, but you can ask questions to at least put you on a path that's in the right direction. And at that... oh, I caught myself. I almost said 'at the end of the day' I said it anyway. At the end of it all, [00:59:00] you're at least sailing toward the correct, correct horizon.
[00:59:05] Josh DeTar: I, my God, I love that so much. I mean, that is what really gets me excited about this industry is... Look, none of us are perfect, but there's definitely a different type of pursuit in the community FIs space. There's a different guiding light. And I think that really encompasses everything that we've talked about over the last hour plus, right,
[00:59:31] is we want to do right, we want to find the ways to deliver right more and better and more efficiently and we want to involve the people in that process. And I think that's a very different guiding light and then a lot of different types of institutions or organizations and, and that's really cool. And like I said, you know, we're, we're not going to be perfect, but like you said, if you, if you want the magic potion, it's, it's include everybody,
[00:59:58] make everybody happy. It's not perfect. [01:00:00] It's or it's not possible, but at least if that's what you're striving towards, I think you're going to hit the mark a lot more often than if that's not your guiding light.
[01:00:09] Michael Murdoch: Absolutely. Yes. Yes indeed. I think as long as you're talking about it, that's a step. As long as you're making steps, those are steps. So it's really about making sure that it is a line item and that there are action items that follow. And I I've seen it and I know you have. I've seen it happen so many times especially in this industry, but more especially in other organizations that have nothing to do with finance.
[01:00:34] It's making sure you're asking the right question, asking the right people the right questions and involving that in your strategy. 
[01:00:43] Josh DeTar: I love it. Michael, this is why I got so excited to have you on the podcast. 
[01:00:47] Michael Murdoch: Stop. Aw-shucks. 
[01:00:49] Josh DeTar: You know, I really appreciate... Yeah, no, seriously. I mean, I really appreciate the way, the way that you think about things. It's very apparent that, that, [01:01:00] that guiding light that has really guided credit unions over
[01:01:04] generations is something that's very organically present in you. And it impacts the things that you say, the way that you act and the decisions that you make. And it's something that I'm really excited to see proliferating through the young credit union professional network. And, you know, you made the comment about the, you know, start small in New York with just the subways.
[01:01:27] I think the same thing here, right? Start small, engage the youth, engage the members of your community. And I just, I love the way that YCUP does that. So I'm a big fan of you, I'm a big fan of supporting YCUP. And that would be my end all advice to anybody listening to this, especially, you know, our credit unions and community banks. Like engage those groups, bring those people in. One, they're just a ton of fun
[01:01:56] and two, they probably got some really good ideas. So bring them in.[01:02:00] 
[01:02:02] Michael Murdoch: And 
[01:02:02] thank you...
[01:02:02] Josh DeTar: With, Michael, I wanna, I wanna, yeah. I want to end with two final questions for you, my friend. So the first is, you know, where do you go to stay informed? I'm, I'm especially curious to hear your answers to this. So, you know, what types of things do you follow to keep up on what's happening in our industry and the things that you care about?
[01:02:23] Michael Murdoch: My favorite place, and this is kind of a pedigree answer, so don't throw your brow, but LinkedIn has been one of the deepest resources for me because it entails so many different organizations that touch this industry and the finance industry. I have met so many people through that platform, it's a put me on to certain journals
[01:02:46] I didn't know that existed. I will say that's one of my favorite. Also associations across the world, that is a very special vein for people to try and look at. You know, there's the, there's there, [01:03:00] Latinx community associations. There's there are associations throughout Africa. You know, there are different places that are more than happy to exercise that cooperation among cooperatives, that value that we all hold near and dear.
[01:03:13] And then, of course I, I love the World Council of Credit Unions. I think that they do a lot of amazing work and they're very connected with a lot of different organizations. You know, obviously, but yeah I would say that I find most of the stuff when I'm just scrolling through LinkedIn, you seek... Because people are proud of what their organization does,
[01:03:31] so they'll, they'll post little stories. It's "Hey, it was Grace's birthday." And they're like, "Oh, that's kind of cute." And then you see Grace was one of the first persons that brought on ITIN Lending at our organization and you say, "Oh wow. When did they do that?" And then you look into it and you, you realize you have the same connection.
[01:03:47] You say, "Hey, we've been talking about doing this." It's just not to sell LinkedIn to anyone, but that's definitely one of my go-tos when it comes to news in this movement. [01:04:00] 
[01:04:01] Josh DeTar: That's a, that's actually a really cool perspective that I think a lot of people need to hear is how LinkedIn can be used as a bunny trail. And, you know, if you actually take the time to scroll through and look and see, and, you know, get past the obviously staged video of me helping a grandma across the street, so I can go viral for it.
[01:04:21] You know, you get past some of that stuff and it is really cool to see the types of things and, you know, I'll even on the other side of it, encourage people to share those wins and share those successes. You know, you, we actually were talking about that before we even started recording, right? And you had asked, you know, when we do guest introductions and put things on our website for the podcasts like, "Do we acknowledge those accolades and things?"
[01:04:45] I said, "Absolutely." You know, I, I think that there is obviously with everything we've talked about this a lot. There's balance, right? And we don't want a bunch of egotistical maniacs just talking about how amazing they are, but it's also really, really important for this [01:05:00] industry, especially one that works so cooperatively together to share those wins, to share those successes and to share those stories.
[01:05:09] And, and I just, I really love that perspective, Michael, you know, use those to look into and say, "Oh, that's really cool. So that person did that." We we've really been talking about that or maybe we've been struggling with that in our institution. And, "Oh my God. You know, we went to CUNA Management School together."
[01:05:25] Like that's super cool. Like there's so many connections and LinkedIn does a good job of helping to thread those all together so that you can start those conversations. So I really liked that. Thank you. So I guess last but not least would be... Oh, go ahead. Sorry.
[01:05:39] Michael Murdoch: Sorry. I, I think there was a little lag on my end. I was just going to say your successes may often be someone else's guide. So that's, I'm glad you said that. Sorry, go ahead. 
[01:05:53] Josh DeTar: No, yeah, no, thank you for adding that. You know, I guess taking that one step further now, if somebody wanted [01:06:00] to connect with you and learn more about what you've been doing with your credit union or with YCUP or if they want to just learn more about how to engage members of their institution, how can people get ahold of you?
[01:06:12] How can people reach you? How can they learn more about you, Wauna, YCUP?
[01:06:18] Michael Murdoch: Yes. Good question. If you would like to learn more about YCUP it's just ycuppdx.com. That's D as an Delta, X as in x-ray dot com. So pdx.com, ycuppdx.com. I can say it three different ways, but that's what it is. And then my email is always the best way to reach me and that is michael dot murdoch, M U R D O C H @ wauna, W A U N A, F as an Foxtrot, C U .org.
[01:06:47] And I am very quick to...
[01:06:49] Josh DeTar: I always like to caveat when my favorite people who actually work at credit unions are on this podcast and they give out their email addresses. Just so you know, if you're a salesperson listening to this and you just got [01:07:00] super excited and wrote down Michael's and focus you're about to cold blast him every single day for the next six months until he buys your product.
[01:07:06] If you do that, I will find you. Just saying. But no, thank you for sharing that, Michael. I think you do have a lot of really valuable resources to share with people in our industry that, that connect with you. So thank you for that. And obviously you can probably find you on LinkedIn too, right?
[01:07:20] Michael Murdoch: Yes, definitely. You can find me on LinkedIn. I should have just said that. Find me on LinkedIn. Yeah. 
[01:07:27] Josh DeTar: Yeah. All the things. Well, Michael, again, thank you so much for being on the show today. I've really been looking forward to this and I can speak for myself and hopefully many others did not disappoint. So thank you.
[01:07:40] Michael Murdoch: I can die happy now that I've been on your podcast. It's, it's a real pleasure and it's always a treat to speak with you, Josh. I hope the misses in the, in the little one are doing well and it's good to hear that you're keeping, keeping upright during everything that's going on and I can't wait until the next time we can...
[01:07:59] Josh DeTar: Yeah. [01:08:00] Ditto, a hundred percent. Well, thank you again for being a guest on the Digital Banking Podcast, Michael.