Zoe Beard: Hello, my name Zoe this is DevOps Bytes. ⁓ This is a podcast that brings insights from Salesforce leaders the ecosystem, which you can to. in the time that it takes you to finish your morning coffee. And with us today is Patrick Mueller from Digital. Hi Patrick. How are you?
Patrick: morning. Yeah, quite good. How about you?
Zoe Beard: I'm good. Yeah. And obviously very happy and excited to have you on the podcast. I know you've kind of, you know, we've been chatting a little bit. are on the, the set DevOps leaders program. Um, but yeah, really excited to learn a bit more about you and just kind of a little bit more about what you're seeing in the industry. definitely looking forward to having a chat.
Patrick: That sounds good. Thanks for having me.
Zoe Beard: No problem. And just to kick off, just for everyone listening, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey into the industry?
Patrick: Of course. Yeah. So ⁓ basically ⁓ I've got quite a special background, I think. So I started as a computer science student and while I was studying, I already started working with the Salesforce ecosystem. ⁓ So I got quite a strong developer background. And also already during my studies, I started working with the SFDX tooling with deployments and so on. And yeah, basically What we used back then for the whole DevOps process for deployments pipelines was just classical version control system pipelines, so Bitbucket pipelines, GitHub actions and so on. roughly three years ago, we noticed that this wasn't really optimal. We had some issues with complex deployments. We some deployments failing at some customers. The customers weren't really happy. So yeah, we... set out to look for a better solution for this and came across Gearset ⁓ and implemented it more than three years ago now ⁓ and rolled it out to every project since then. ⁓ Internally, I drove the adoption and was responsible for getting the users onto it. We also added code reviews last year as an addition to... ⁓ improve the quality of the code we deliver. And yet today I'm responsible for DevOps across our Salesforce division and basically helping everyone on our team release faster, safer, scalable, and also now with the code reveals catch bugs early on.
Zoe Beard: Awesome, thank you. And given obviously your background in DevOps and your current role, what are some of the current trends that you're seeing in the ecosystem and maybe especially when you're talking to customers, what are you noticing that's emerging as a trend or is something that a lot of people are talking about?
Patrick: So I think what we're generally still seeing in the DevOps space, especially in Salesforce, is that it's still picking up speed compared to like classical software development. So DevOps has been a huge part of classic software development in general. In Salesforce, it's been a bit slower, but we're seeing huge improvements there, especially over the last few years. Also thanks to tools like Yesit, for example, who are pushing this very much. ⁓ Yeah, that's like the major thing I'm seeing. also, of course, ⁓ I mean, this goes across every part of life now, I think, but also especially across the industry and also DevOps, we're seeing, of course, increased AI adoption, but not only for as like a development assistance anymore, but also for things like code views or for testing as well. ⁓ So this is also expanding.
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm.
Patrick: very fast. ⁓ And what we're seeing there is that more parts of the DevOps process can be automated using AI, ⁓ which was just not possible before. And what we're also seeing is that development and release management are getting more and more fast-paced. It's easier to develop new features. It's easier to develop also more complex, bigger new features, and easier to release them into production. So everything's getting Yeah, as I said, more fast paced there. And I think in conclusion, these faster release cycles, ⁓ the AI adoption and also increased awareness ⁓ about governance and compliance sort of drive a shift left movement. ⁓ So for example, teams are using tools like code reviews to catch issues early on in the pipeline. They want to catch issues before they reach production, of course.
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm.
Patrick: but also they want to catch them potentially even before they reach a test environment just to make sure that you can fix them while it's still very cheap to fix them. The earlier you can catch a bug, the cheaper it to fix it. Of course, they are doing this to prevent breaking existing processes. This has been important before with classical development approaches like Apex and Flows, but I think it's getting... way more relevant now with the adoption of AI because you really want to make sure that you don't break your existing processes when deploying a new agent, for example. These agents heavily rely on your existing processes in Salesforce org, so you really want to make sure that you don't break them. Yeah, and of course, this all also helps teams who lease with more confidence. ⁓ If you know you have a stable DevOps process, if you can trust your process,
Zoe Beard: Yeah.
Patrick: then you can also trust that something that you tested in test environment and you now deploy it into the production environment that it will also work the same way there.
Zoe Beard: Yeah, and just actually just thinking about AI. One thing I was, up with conversation the other day was around how in DevOps, you know, there is often approach, because a lot of tech companies talk about, especially at the startups talk about ⁓ building, ⁓ move fast and break things and almost in DevOps, it's the opposite. It's you move slow and almost build things. So it's like there's more of a long term approach to stuff. I think especially in AI we've seen a lot of tech companies kind of moving faster and just kind of aiming to break things with AI and just kind of seeing what works. But are you seeing more generally that the approach to AI within Salesforce Dev is more of a kind of considered approach where people are kind of perhaps starting with lower stakes implementations and kind of like really kind of building out these cases slowly. So they're kind of making sure that things aren't breaking, you know, kind of further down closer to the, to the release.
Patrick: Yeah, I'd say so because I think a lot of Salesforce customers, they heavily rely on Salesforce as their CRM system, but not only as their CRM system anymore, but as their main system for working with their customers and especially in customer communication, you want to make sure that your processes work and that you don't have any failing processes. You don't send any emails out to customers that contain some invalid information. ⁓ So yeah, think especially in the Salesforce space where you have this special situation, you are more considerate about what you actually want to use AI for. And yeah, as I said, you want to make sure that the AI actually works the way you intended to.
Zoe Beard: Mm hmm. And I think there's a lot of ⁓ obviously people in different countries like the how AI is being implemented obviously depends on the country they're in and perhaps the kind of the policies and stuff that ⁓ governments have in place and you're based in Germany so I'm quite curious to know like have you noticed any differences in how perhaps like companies in Germany are implementing AI?
Patrick: Yeah, think Germany is quite an interesting market here when it comes to AI. So what we're seeing with existing customers, but also with prospects is that there's a lot of potential and also a lot of interest. ⁓ But it's still quite a reserved market. Companies are still very reserved. I I think in Germany, it's generally like they are reserved about technology, but especially now with AI. ⁓ And what I'm seeing is that companies want to see how AI can help them in their specific processes. And they want to see really how brings them value. They don't want to see some general numbers like AI can reduce the time you need to convert a lead by 20%. They want to see exactly how does this help me. And also what's a big point in Germany is like data privacy. Yeah, companies really want to know where their data goes, ⁓ what's happening with the data. ⁓ And as long as they don't know that, they will not even think about adopting AI processes. So I think, for example, the Salesforce Trust layer is a huge benefit there. It's a huge and very important factor to build trust at the customers and to make them believe that actually this is safe to use. ⁓
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Patrick: Your data is not going anywhere. The data stays exactly where it already is. ⁓ And you can get value with Salesforce or with AI out of Salesforce.
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm. yeah, I think that's something I just, as you said, was like, yeah, that definitely makes sense. It kind of like what I have understood of how Germany approaches technology. And another question I had for you is obviously partnerships are really important within the Salesforce ecosystem and just thinking about your experiences with partnering with different companies, what do you think makes a great partner?
Patrick: So at Digital, our main philosophy for this is that we want to genuinely understand our customers and we want to understand what their business is and what their processes are. So we don't just implement a Salesforce solution like a standard sales cloud, but we understand what our customer wants to achieve with this ⁓ and which processes they actually need, which are most relevant for them. So then we can also guide them what they actually need. to implement in order to be successful, in order to get the best value out of the platform. And I think in general, technical and product knowledge is sort of just expected nowadays, and you won't get any customers with this. You actually need to show them that you understand their business. That's why, for example, with digital, we also have industry teams or... like vertical expertise, for example, we have specialized teams for the construction industry where I'm working in. Where we also have, for example, we call it the Buildforce template, which is a solution based on the sales cloud specifically for the construction industry, which contains specific construction processes. Again, just to show that we understand our customers' business.
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm.
Patrick: And I think the second important point for us is that it's always about strategic, honest, strategic long-term partnerships. And we're also seeing that we are a gear set partner as well. And we're seeing the same with you. So you guys, also want to understand the processes of the customers. You want to help them the best you can. And so that's why I think also the partnership between gear set and digital is very successful.
Zoe Beard: Yeah, awesome. Thanks. And yeah, I'll say great to be, you know, first department digital and the work we've done so far. And then perhaps this maybe ties back to the earlier question, but what do you think the future of DevOps is looking like in the future, perhaps specifically in the next three to five years?
Patrick: So I think we're probably going to see a bit of a paradox situation. think DevOps is going to become more and more important, but also it's going to shift more and more into the background. ⁓ So what I mean by this, ⁓ I explained this a bit before, with the faster paced developments and so on, I think you absolutely do need to have a DevOps process. You won't make it any longer without a stable DevOps process. But also, to AI and so on, it's getting easier to adopt the DevOps process and to build stable processes. So it's going to shift more and more in the background as well, something that just happens. We did a case study with you guys, I think, last year. And my colleague said that deployments are something that just happens nowadays. It's not an issue anymore in the projects. It's something that just works. ⁓ So yeah, that's the first thing. ⁓ And I sort of mentioned this already a bit, but I think DevOps will become a necessity for anyone who wants to stay in the loop. Because with all these fast-paced developments, you can't work without a DevOps process anymore. You absolutely do need ⁓ this process in order to not only deploy your changes or lease your changes into production, but also to make sure that you don't break anything, as I said. ⁓
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm.
Patrick: in order, for example, when you think about backup, ⁓ like we're this agent, we're releasing these agents into production. ⁓ And we do everything that we can to make sure that we don't break any processes, that we don't break anything, we don't mess up any data, but it's still AI. An agent can still mess up your data. And in that case, you, for example, also definitely want to have a backup solution in order to be able to roll back to a good version of your data. ⁓
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm.
Patrick: So I'd say the most important thing is to sort of invest into a solid DevOps process now, which is CI/CD code reviews testing. And then you'll have a very stable pillar and very important pillar for staying on top of fast-based developments and so on. And by investor, don't only mean tools, which is like the base for a stable DevOps process, but also you need to get your teams ready, you need to build knowledge around the DevOps space. ⁓ Yeah, so your teams are actually able to make use of the tools that are out there.
Zoe Beard: Thank you. And yeah, just, just thinking about for anyone wanting to optimize their DevOps process, would you say maybe perhaps before you even start looking at platforms, it is making sure that there's that alignment between the teams and the communication, not just within, you know, like the developers and of the technical team, but also the, the wider businesses as well. So they understand what. you're trying to achieve and how this DevOps process is going to help them in their day-to-day role as well.
Patrick: Yeah, definitely. mean, so for example, Jack also talks a lot about this in his podcast DevOps Diaries. But I think also with DevOps, like the human factor is the most important one. need to get your team on board with this. need to understand why this is important. Also how this helps them. And I think it's also, it's the same as with CRM, like a CRM system.
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm.
Patrick: is great, but it won't help you if you don't have a CIM process. And it's the same with DevOps. There are great tools out there that will help you adopt a great process, but it won't work if you don't live DevOps. And of course, the human factor and communication and so on are the most important part of this.
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm. And if we look at just the tech side of things, what advice would you give to someone that is, you know, about to kind of wants to bring on a new platform or bring on a new feature? What do you think is a top tip for them when perhaps evaluating the different vendors on the market?
Patrick: I think you should really look at the features and ease of use, especially when you're new into the DevOps space. ⁓ There are great open source tools. are tools like SFDX, VS Code, and so on. And if you have a developer with very experienced, they can work with this. But that's nothing that you can catch an admin with. An admin won't be happy to use them. ⁓ And that's a very bad situation to start with the DevOps process. you need easy to use tools so the users are able to adopt them quickly, happy to use them and also see the benefit for themselves.
Zoe Beard: Perfect, thank you. Yeah, thank you for this chat. It's always really just great, know, just for myself, but you know, everyone listening just kind of learn a bit more about the different people than the Salesforce ecosystem and just get all those these different perspectives because that's, know, I think the best way we can learn is from each other. Just before we close off, just like to invite you to kind of share how people can find out more about digital and if there are any events or, you know, kind of. anything you'll be attending the next few weeks on Mums that where people will be able to meet you.
Patrick: Yeah, so of course, the best place to start is our website, digital.com. I'm sure you can link it in the show notes as well. ⁓ You can also reach out to us or also to me personally on LinkedIn, of course, if you have any questions about DevOps, about also ⁓ construction specific topics, for example. ⁓ And we'll be, so for anyone in construction, we'll be at the construction summit in Hamburg next month. and will also be at the H &F World Tour, for example, ⁓ during this year.
Zoe Beard: Perfect. Thank you so much for joining. It's been great to chat and just learn a bit more about your role and the work that you're doing and getting your kind of top tips. So thank you so much for joining the podcast.
Patrick: Yeah, thank you for having me again.
Zoe Beard: Thank you. Bye bye.
Patrick: Bye.
Patrick: morning. Yeah, quite good. How about you?
Zoe Beard: I'm good. Yeah. And obviously very happy and excited to have you on the podcast. I know you've kind of, you know, we've been chatting a little bit. are on the, the set DevOps leaders program. Um, but yeah, really excited to learn a bit more about you and just kind of a little bit more about what you're seeing in the industry. definitely looking forward to having a chat.
Patrick: That sounds good. Thanks for having me.
Zoe Beard: No problem. And just to kick off, just for everyone listening, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey into the industry?
Patrick: Of course. Yeah. So ⁓ basically ⁓ I've got quite a special background, I think. So I started as a computer science student and while I was studying, I already started working with the Salesforce ecosystem. ⁓ So I got quite a strong developer background. And also already during my studies, I started working with the SFDX tooling with deployments and so on. And yeah, basically What we used back then for the whole DevOps process for deployments pipelines was just classical version control system pipelines, so Bitbucket pipelines, GitHub actions and so on. roughly three years ago, we noticed that this wasn't really optimal. We had some issues with complex deployments. We some deployments failing at some customers. The customers weren't really happy. So yeah, we... set out to look for a better solution for this and came across Gearset ⁓ and implemented it more than three years ago now ⁓ and rolled it out to every project since then. ⁓ Internally, I drove the adoption and was responsible for getting the users onto it. We also added code reviews last year as an addition to... ⁓ improve the quality of the code we deliver. And yet today I'm responsible for DevOps across our Salesforce division and basically helping everyone on our team release faster, safer, scalable, and also now with the code reveals catch bugs early on.
Zoe Beard: Awesome, thank you. And given obviously your background in DevOps and your current role, what are some of the current trends that you're seeing in the ecosystem and maybe especially when you're talking to customers, what are you noticing that's emerging as a trend or is something that a lot of people are talking about?
Patrick: So I think what we're generally still seeing in the DevOps space, especially in Salesforce, is that it's still picking up speed compared to like classical software development. So DevOps has been a huge part of classic software development in general. In Salesforce, it's been a bit slower, but we're seeing huge improvements there, especially over the last few years. Also thanks to tools like Yesit, for example, who are pushing this very much. ⁓ Yeah, that's like the major thing I'm seeing. also, of course, ⁓ I mean, this goes across every part of life now, I think, but also especially across the industry and also DevOps, we're seeing, of course, increased AI adoption, but not only for as like a development assistance anymore, but also for things like code views or for testing as well. ⁓ So this is also expanding.
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm.
Patrick: very fast. ⁓ And what we're seeing there is that more parts of the DevOps process can be automated using AI, ⁓ which was just not possible before. And what we're also seeing is that development and release management are getting more and more fast-paced. It's easier to develop new features. It's easier to develop also more complex, bigger new features, and easier to release them into production. So everything's getting Yeah, as I said, more fast paced there. And I think in conclusion, these faster release cycles, ⁓ the AI adoption and also increased awareness ⁓ about governance and compliance sort of drive a shift left movement. ⁓ So for example, teams are using tools like code reviews to catch issues early on in the pipeline. They want to catch issues before they reach production, of course.
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm.
Patrick: but also they want to catch them potentially even before they reach a test environment just to make sure that you can fix them while it's still very cheap to fix them. The earlier you can catch a bug, the cheaper it to fix it. Of course, they are doing this to prevent breaking existing processes. This has been important before with classical development approaches like Apex and Flows, but I think it's getting... way more relevant now with the adoption of AI because you really want to make sure that you don't break your existing processes when deploying a new agent, for example. These agents heavily rely on your existing processes in Salesforce org, so you really want to make sure that you don't break them. Yeah, and of course, this all also helps teams who lease with more confidence. ⁓ If you know you have a stable DevOps process, if you can trust your process,
Zoe Beard: Yeah.
Patrick: then you can also trust that something that you tested in test environment and you now deploy it into the production environment that it will also work the same way there.
Zoe Beard: Yeah, and just actually just thinking about AI. One thing I was, up with conversation the other day was around how in DevOps, you know, there is often approach, because a lot of tech companies talk about, especially at the startups talk about ⁓ building, ⁓ move fast and break things and almost in DevOps, it's the opposite. It's you move slow and almost build things. So it's like there's more of a long term approach to stuff. I think especially in AI we've seen a lot of tech companies kind of moving faster and just kind of aiming to break things with AI and just kind of seeing what works. But are you seeing more generally that the approach to AI within Salesforce Dev is more of a kind of considered approach where people are kind of perhaps starting with lower stakes implementations and kind of like really kind of building out these cases slowly. So they're kind of making sure that things aren't breaking, you know, kind of further down closer to the, to the release.
Patrick: Yeah, I'd say so because I think a lot of Salesforce customers, they heavily rely on Salesforce as their CRM system, but not only as their CRM system anymore, but as their main system for working with their customers and especially in customer communication, you want to make sure that your processes work and that you don't have any failing processes. You don't send any emails out to customers that contain some invalid information. ⁓ So yeah, think especially in the Salesforce space where you have this special situation, you are more considerate about what you actually want to use AI for. And yeah, as I said, you want to make sure that the AI actually works the way you intended to.
Zoe Beard: Mm hmm. And I think there's a lot of ⁓ obviously people in different countries like the how AI is being implemented obviously depends on the country they're in and perhaps the kind of the policies and stuff that ⁓ governments have in place and you're based in Germany so I'm quite curious to know like have you noticed any differences in how perhaps like companies in Germany are implementing AI?
Patrick: Yeah, think Germany is quite an interesting market here when it comes to AI. So what we're seeing with existing customers, but also with prospects is that there's a lot of potential and also a lot of interest. ⁓ But it's still quite a reserved market. Companies are still very reserved. I I think in Germany, it's generally like they are reserved about technology, but especially now with AI. ⁓ And what I'm seeing is that companies want to see how AI can help them in their specific processes. And they want to see really how brings them value. They don't want to see some general numbers like AI can reduce the time you need to convert a lead by 20%. They want to see exactly how does this help me. And also what's a big point in Germany is like data privacy. Yeah, companies really want to know where their data goes, ⁓ what's happening with the data. ⁓ And as long as they don't know that, they will not even think about adopting AI processes. So I think, for example, the Salesforce Trust layer is a huge benefit there. It's a huge and very important factor to build trust at the customers and to make them believe that actually this is safe to use. ⁓
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Patrick: Your data is not going anywhere. The data stays exactly where it already is. ⁓ And you can get value with Salesforce or with AI out of Salesforce.
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm. yeah, I think that's something I just, as you said, was like, yeah, that definitely makes sense. It kind of like what I have understood of how Germany approaches technology. And another question I had for you is obviously partnerships are really important within the Salesforce ecosystem and just thinking about your experiences with partnering with different companies, what do you think makes a great partner?
Patrick: So at Digital, our main philosophy for this is that we want to genuinely understand our customers and we want to understand what their business is and what their processes are. So we don't just implement a Salesforce solution like a standard sales cloud, but we understand what our customer wants to achieve with this ⁓ and which processes they actually need, which are most relevant for them. So then we can also guide them what they actually need. to implement in order to be successful, in order to get the best value out of the platform. And I think in general, technical and product knowledge is sort of just expected nowadays, and you won't get any customers with this. You actually need to show them that you understand their business. That's why, for example, with digital, we also have industry teams or... like vertical expertise, for example, we have specialized teams for the construction industry where I'm working in. Where we also have, for example, we call it the Buildforce template, which is a solution based on the sales cloud specifically for the construction industry, which contains specific construction processes. Again, just to show that we understand our customers' business.
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm.
Patrick: And I think the second important point for us is that it's always about strategic, honest, strategic long-term partnerships. And we're also seeing that we are a gear set partner as well. And we're seeing the same with you. So you guys, also want to understand the processes of the customers. You want to help them the best you can. And so that's why I think also the partnership between gear set and digital is very successful.
Zoe Beard: Yeah, awesome. Thanks. And yeah, I'll say great to be, you know, first department digital and the work we've done so far. And then perhaps this maybe ties back to the earlier question, but what do you think the future of DevOps is looking like in the future, perhaps specifically in the next three to five years?
Patrick: So I think we're probably going to see a bit of a paradox situation. think DevOps is going to become more and more important, but also it's going to shift more and more into the background. ⁓ So what I mean by this, ⁓ I explained this a bit before, with the faster paced developments and so on, I think you absolutely do need to have a DevOps process. You won't make it any longer without a stable DevOps process. But also, to AI and so on, it's getting easier to adopt the DevOps process and to build stable processes. So it's going to shift more and more in the background as well, something that just happens. We did a case study with you guys, I think, last year. And my colleague said that deployments are something that just happens nowadays. It's not an issue anymore in the projects. It's something that just works. ⁓ So yeah, that's the first thing. ⁓ And I sort of mentioned this already a bit, but I think DevOps will become a necessity for anyone who wants to stay in the loop. Because with all these fast-paced developments, you can't work without a DevOps process anymore. You absolutely do need ⁓ this process in order to not only deploy your changes or lease your changes into production, but also to make sure that you don't break anything, as I said. ⁓
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm.
Patrick: in order, for example, when you think about backup, ⁓ like we're this agent, we're releasing these agents into production. ⁓ And we do everything that we can to make sure that we don't break any processes, that we don't break anything, we don't mess up any data, but it's still AI. An agent can still mess up your data. And in that case, you, for example, also definitely want to have a backup solution in order to be able to roll back to a good version of your data. ⁓
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm.
Patrick: So I'd say the most important thing is to sort of invest into a solid DevOps process now, which is CI/CD code reviews testing. And then you'll have a very stable pillar and very important pillar for staying on top of fast-based developments and so on. And by investor, don't only mean tools, which is like the base for a stable DevOps process, but also you need to get your teams ready, you need to build knowledge around the DevOps space. ⁓ Yeah, so your teams are actually able to make use of the tools that are out there.
Zoe Beard: Thank you. And yeah, just, just thinking about for anyone wanting to optimize their DevOps process, would you say maybe perhaps before you even start looking at platforms, it is making sure that there's that alignment between the teams and the communication, not just within, you know, like the developers and of the technical team, but also the, the wider businesses as well. So they understand what. you're trying to achieve and how this DevOps process is going to help them in their day-to-day role as well.
Patrick: Yeah, definitely. mean, so for example, Jack also talks a lot about this in his podcast DevOps Diaries. But I think also with DevOps, like the human factor is the most important one. need to get your team on board with this. need to understand why this is important. Also how this helps them. And I think it's also, it's the same as with CRM, like a CRM system.
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm.
Patrick: is great, but it won't help you if you don't have a CIM process. And it's the same with DevOps. There are great tools out there that will help you adopt a great process, but it won't work if you don't live DevOps. And of course, the human factor and communication and so on are the most important part of this.
Zoe Beard: Mm-hmm. And if we look at just the tech side of things, what advice would you give to someone that is, you know, about to kind of wants to bring on a new platform or bring on a new feature? What do you think is a top tip for them when perhaps evaluating the different vendors on the market?
Patrick: I think you should really look at the features and ease of use, especially when you're new into the DevOps space. ⁓ There are great open source tools. are tools like SFDX, VS Code, and so on. And if you have a developer with very experienced, they can work with this. But that's nothing that you can catch an admin with. An admin won't be happy to use them. ⁓ And that's a very bad situation to start with the DevOps process. you need easy to use tools so the users are able to adopt them quickly, happy to use them and also see the benefit for themselves.
Zoe Beard: Perfect, thank you. Yeah, thank you for this chat. It's always really just great, know, just for myself, but you know, everyone listening just kind of learn a bit more about the different people than the Salesforce ecosystem and just get all those these different perspectives because that's, know, I think the best way we can learn is from each other. Just before we close off, just like to invite you to kind of share how people can find out more about digital and if there are any events or, you know, kind of. anything you'll be attending the next few weeks on Mums that where people will be able to meet you.
Patrick: Yeah, so of course, the best place to start is our website, digital.com. I'm sure you can link it in the show notes as well. ⁓ You can also reach out to us or also to me personally on LinkedIn, of course, if you have any questions about DevOps, about also ⁓ construction specific topics, for example. ⁓ And we'll be, so for anyone in construction, we'll be at the construction summit in Hamburg next month. and will also be at the H &F World Tour, for example, ⁓ during this year.
Zoe Beard: Perfect. Thank you so much for joining. It's been great to chat and just learn a bit more about your role and the work that you're doing and getting your kind of top tips. So thank you so much for joining the podcast.
Patrick: Yeah, thank you for having me again.
Zoe Beard: Thank you. Bye bye.
Patrick: Bye.
