TJ: This is Design Happy, the podcast, where we talk about the human side of home design remodeling and new construction. I'm TJ.
Katie: And I'm Katie. And today we are returning for more about cabinets. because one episode clearly wasn't enough. So we are crazy for cabinets again. Again.
TJ: Part due.
Katie: Pard. Yeah. Who would have thought? I not us. I don't know, maybe you.
TJ: yeah, the people have spoken. I mean there's a
Katie: The
TJ: lot to talk about with cabinets, but when we saw the reaction on the YouTubes, we were like, we gotta talk about cabinets again. And here we are. Yeah. I I thought you were gonna carry the water
Katie: We gotta give them more. And you can. You you you could talk about cabinets.
TJ: on this one. No?
Katie: I could do that. I could do that. Let's talk about
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: things we put in our cappets. I can
TJ: Ha ha
Katie: I can fill.
TJ: I I have a I have a banter question for you, Katie.
Katie: what is it?
TJ: So so this this episode we're going back for seconds. Is there a
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: food that if it's available you'll always go back for seconds for?
Katie: First of all, TJ.
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: Fabulous job with the Bamter question.
TJ: Ha ha ha.
Katie: Probably. my gosh. It's probably French fries. yeah, shoe
TJ: Yeah, not shocking.
Katie: shoestring though. Like shoestring french fries. And there is a, there's like a mini like chain in the DC area called Rare. Have you been? Have you probably not?
TJ: Uh-huh.
Katie: but it's a basically they will bring steak. Cooked the way you want it and French fries to your table until you were like, stop. Until you're like, stop,
TJ: No.
Katie: stop. But the way they used to do it is they would like I'm pretty sure the it like they would cover your table in like in a craft paper, in like culinary
TJ: Uh-huh.
Katie: craft paper. And the fries just kind of get like dumped onto the middle of the table. It's just a pile of shoestring fries.
TJ: it's like crabs.
Katie: Yes. Yes, but better in my I'm sorry.
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: I'm very sorry to everyone who to Marylanders, I guess. but I if I would go to all kind of crabbing gatherings if it was shoestring fries. So that's probably it. What about I have a feeling yours is gonna be Mine's like the greasiest food imaginable.
TJ: Ha ha ha.
Katie: What's yours, TJ?
TJ: Mine is raw kale, Katie? Just I'm kidding.
Katie: Yeah, yeah, I was not gonna I was
TJ: I was I I was like, What's the opposite of a lot of french fries? I was
Katie: But to be fair to be fair, like we both know there is this like Brussels and kale Caesar salad that I
TJ: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Katie: you could give me a trough of it and I would
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: yeah, all day. no, what is yours?
TJ: it's also potato based. So look at us. but I I I mash potatoes.
Katie: okay. Okay.
TJ: Yeah. Yep.
Katie: That's a that's you're you're kind of a champ because mashed potatoes super filling. Like super filling. You get that's a choice. That's a choice. But I love it. So so we would be we'd be fine in the potato famine. We'd survive.
TJ: yeah. Yeah. the other I have a I have another one though. Yeah.
Katie: What what were you what were you saying?
TJ: There there's a there's another one. There I do have a I mean not like mashed potatoes are healthy, but there's so cat makes these cookies. I have all these weird dietary things, so cat has become qu quite a good baker.
Katie: my gosh, I've had one of these cookies.
TJ: To to meet my dietary restrictions. So she makes oatmeal chocolate chip cookies that are vegan and gluten free. And when I say go back for seconds, I mean like I might eat a dozen and then go back for a second helping of another dozen. it is by far the least healthy thing I do in my whole life. Yeah.
Katie: W a dozen is a serving in this case. that no, y you've shared them before. They are so good.
TJ: Uh-huh.
Katie: So so good. You know what else? You know what else I'd go back for seconds for? The
TJ: What?
Katie: the cherry chip ice cream that you made. I don't know if I
TJ: get out, for real?
Katie: for real. I I think I tried to make it on my own.
TJ: Mm-hmm.
Katie: I think I had to like turn it into a milkshake or something. It it didn't go according to plan.
TJ: Ha ha ha.
Katie: but so good. If it wasn't like filling, super filling, I would yes, very good. What now, okay. I'm distracted. We are not here to talk about food.
TJ: No no
Katie: Again, to my disappointment, we're here for cabinets. What
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: else is there to s to say, TJ?
TJ: no, nothing. I just thought it would be funny if we started an episode to talk about cabinets. That's it. No, we did it all in the first one. Yeah. so in the in the
Katie: That's all. Great. Now TJ has a song for you. About cabinets. Take it away, TJ.
TJ: Yeah, just just hear me ad lib a cabinet song for the next twenty minutes.
Katie: Next twenty, yeah. I believe in you. Okay. But
TJ: Thank you. so in the the first cabinet episode we did, we were talking about the basics of the cabinet box. Right? like how tall is it typically? What should you be looking out for when people tell you the
Katie: Mm.
TJ: thickness of the box, face frame, no face frame, inset, not inset, a semi-custom full overlay. versa fully custom and what your options might be, a very inexpensive full overlay versus a higher end like we covered all these things. We did the sketch up model, all all of that good stuff, right?
Katie: Did a lot. That was that was a episode chockful of knowledge. Chockful. Chockful.
TJ: Yes. Chock chockful.
Katie: Up. Are you
TJ: so I I
Katie: Are you getting SketchUp ready? Is that what you're
TJ: No, no, this is not a sketch up thing. I am gonna I am gonna share though, because I I think it would be helpful to talk about other things that you might encounter when you're going to the cabinet showroom. because you'll hear you'll hear terms
Katie: Makes it sound so exciting. Yes.
TJ: what else? so let me share. Let me share my screen and y Katie, you tell me when this pops up.
Katie: Waiting, waiting. There it is. it it's up. Yeah.
TJ: Okay, do you so we we sell a cabinet line called Crystal. So I'm on Crystal's website, and what I wanted to do was look at some of these doorstyles to to call out the terminology so that
Katie: Mm.
TJ: when you go someplace and Maybe the cabinet designer doesn't really care all that much about educating you on what your options are. And they're just like, Do you want a slab drawer or a five-piece drawer? That's that's what the cabinet designer sounds like. and you're like, I don't know. well
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: so we're gonna we're gonna talk about that now. So I'm just gonna click on this one right here, this door. So do okay,
Katie: Yeah. Yeah, I like that one.
TJ: good. So Am I am I zoomed in appropriately on the drawer front?
Katie: You are, you are, very appropriately.
TJ: Okay, okay. So this is a five piece drawer. And the reason it's five pieces, it's because it's quite literally made of five pieces of wood. So
Katie: Mm.
TJ: imagine a picture frame, if if you can't see this, if you're listening, imagine there's a picture frame. There's a a left side, a top, a right side, and a bottom. So that's four pieces. And then the fifth piece is on a picture frame, there will be a piece of glass in the center. In this case, it's the piece of wood. that makes the the panel of the drawer front. So if if you hear the term five piece, it is referring to the the picture frame that that you see on the drawer front. So one, two, three, four, and then the middle panel is five, five piece drawer front. does that make sense?
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: Okay. the other option is let's just click on this one. Doesn't really matter. This one is a slab drawer front. This is one piece of wood. So this is a slab. So it's not
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: typically called a one piece, and the other one's called a five piece, so it's it's a slab. so if you hear somebody say, Do you want a five-piece drawer or do you want a slab drawer? We're referring to the number of pieces of
Katie: This is what we're talking about.
TJ: wood it takes to make. Yep. So this is it.
Katie: Got it.
TJ: Is that is it so s slab and five piece? Does that make sense?
Katie: Clear as day.
TJ: Okay, good. Now on this, on the Crystal website where it shows you all the door styles that we're looking at, all of these are a single door and a single drawer. So I'm gonna explain something related to a option you might have with drawers, but looking at a door doesn't really help. So if you imagine a cabinet that has three drawers on it. And no doors.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: That's called a a three drawer base. Typically the top drawer is a little bit skinnier and the two bottom drawers are a little bit wider. Depending on the the type of cabinet line it is, maybe we can find one. If I click on, I mean we're here. good, right there. Did not take long.
Katie: Wow.
TJ: Alright, so this the the cabinet on in the picture I'm sharing on the right hand side, this is a three-drawer base. So
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: the top one's a little bit skinnier and then the the bottom two are a little bit taller. So you might choose if if you're doing a kitchen that has a combination of drawer fronts and doors, you might choose to have the top drawer be slab. And the bottom drawers be five piece. And the reason you might choose to do that is if you're doing slab drawers everywhere.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: Then it sometimes looks weird when you have a door style next to it. So when you if you imagine lining up two cabinets next to one another, the cabinet on the left has a single drawer and a door, and the cabinet on the right has three drawers. The
Katie: Mm.
TJ: door, the drawers on the top line up, and then the two drawers on the right line up with the door on the left. So if you do slab drawers everywhere, you're gonna have flat. on the drawers on top and the two drawers on the side, and then a door style next to the flat drawers. So
Katie: Got it. A door s a door style you're saying that isn't slab, that isn't okay, okay.
TJ: Right. Yeah. Most people don't do slab everything, but if you're doing slab everything, you know, there's no consideration here. It's fine. But mo if like the most common type of cabinet is a shaker. So if if you're doing a shaker door,
Katie: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
TJ: then this is this is relevant. or any kind of door.
Katie: Yeah, show us.
TJ: so let's just I'll find a shaker real quick.
Katie: Show us shaker.
TJ: yeah. Right. So if we're looking at this shaker door, so there's a slab door on top, there's the shaker door below. If there was another cabinet to the right of this that was all slab, you would see slab drawer, slab drawer, slab drawer. And it looks to me
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: a little bit disjointed. So
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: one option you have, depending on the the cabinet manufacturer, is you could do top drawer slab only and five
Katie: Uh-huh.
TJ: piece everywhere else. And what that gets you is the same shaker style on the two drawers that line up with the door that's next to it.
Katie: And when you say that depends on cabinet manufacturer, do you mean whether it is semi-custom or fully custom or really just depends on the company?
TJ: Depends on the company.
Katie: Okay, got it. I also am curious how one gets the job of naming these styles, these door styles, because if there's a way to apply for that, I would like to.
TJ: You know, you would be good at that. That would be a good job for you. Do you want to just
Katie: I don't I don't know if I
TJ: rename them? We can we can call them whatever
Katie: No, I think this one di I
TJ: we want.
Katie: boy, what would you call this one?
TJ: I well, I don't know, that's your job. but we'll have a whole translation key that I'll have to go through when I'm actually ordering the cabinet. So it's like, they they picked the squiggle door, which what is that
Katie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. N no.
TJ: really in Crystal Term? the Dan the Danberry, okay.
Katie: Like I'd give them all like basic names. I'd be like, this is Jill. This is Jill.
TJ: Ha ha ha.
Katie: And you know, that over there is Cornelia. Like it would and yeah, maybe maybe I shouldn't. Anyway, okay. No, that makes sense.
TJ: okay. So this is this is if it's all slab.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: Right, so this is a more modern look.
Katie: Yeah, I I wouldn't call this Celeste. I would I would call that like
TJ: No.
Katie: I would call it Ingrid. I would call or like
TJ: Ingrid.
Katie: Ingrid or Shay. Something like that. I don't I need I'm not good with modern names. Continue. You just showed us an all-slab, drawer and door. That's the point.
TJ: Yeah. And then we we talked about Shaker.
Katie: Uh-huh.
TJ: so this one, then we can get start getting into panels. And you can get a flat panel or a raised panel. So here. So see this one, it looks like there's molding put on top of it.
Katie: Mm.
TJ: Like there's a lot of shadow lines here. This is a raised panel door.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: It's this is very traditional. One other thing to note is some cabinet makers will let you change the outside edge profile. So if if you look at this this door style, this is a slab drawer up here, but it has an outside edge profile on it.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: So it's not just a straight slab, it's got a little zuz out here.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: So the fully custom lines will typically give you options for this. Now it it would be weird if you changed the outside edge of this drawer to square because this door style comes with this bevel on the outside
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: edge. So the the drawer matches the door, but in theory. with a custom line you could change it.
Katie: Okay. Okay.
TJ: So that's an example of a raised panel. This is a flat panel. So it's sort of like that shaker that we looked at before, but you can
Katie: Mm.
TJ: see there's that outside edge profile on the door and the drawer front. And then there's also an inside bead around. So if somebody wanted a shaker door but a little bit more detail on it. Something like this is is typically a good option. Sometimes we would call this shaker with a bead.
Katie: Love it.
TJ: and and there's a a few that that's this is actually in the in the fully custom crystal line, this is one of the most popular door styles, French Villa Square.
Katie: Yeah. I can see why.
TJ: yeah. So then when we're we're talking about Shaker, here, let's let's compare a couple. So this this hamstead one is shaker with a bead. so that's not a great one for what I was trying to do. This this is the one. Okay, so this is this is Regent's. This is Crystal's standard shaker door. If we compare that to Gentry, do you see? So the the picture frame is called a style and rail. The style and rail on the picture frame of this door is much thicker than it
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: was on Regent's. So typically it depends on the cabinet maker, but typically on a shaker door, the style and rail are something around two inches. Might be inch and three quarters, might be two and a quarter, but something around what we're looking at here is this picture frame is something around two inches.
Katie: Okay. Okay.
TJ: And when we go to this other door, gentry, this one might be something like three inches or three and a quarter inches.
Katie: I don't think we're seeing gentry right now in the screen share. If that's what you wanted us to see. Saw the regent. Yeah.
TJ: Yep, sure is. Thank you. I see. I'm only sharing this. okay. Just just lock it in your head. Just lock that
Katie: Locked.
TJ: region in your head. Okay, good, perfect. here's gentry.
Katie: Yeah, whoa.
TJ: Okay, so the the style in the rail is much chunkier. So this might be three or three and a quarter inches.
Katie: Okay, okay.
TJ: And then if we went back to that first one we looked at. That one was much narrower. Right? This is cascade.
Katie: The yeah.
TJ: This one might be like an inch. Right? So typically the narrower it gets, the more modern it looks.
Katie: Mm.
TJ: One important thing to make a note of, it again, this depends on the manufacturer, but the height of the drawer front might be something like six inches. So on this cascade door where the style and rail is very narrow, it's a more modern look, you have plenty of room on the center panel to put a drawer pole. Whatever your cabinet hardware is going to be, there's plenty of room here
Katie: Okay, yeah.
TJ: to put it. If if I go back to that the gentry, where did it go? It's hiding from me.
Katie: We'll find you. Uh-huh.
TJ: Yeah. Do you see they're not even showing the drawer as five-piece? They're only showing you a slab.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: because there's not enough room on this drawer front to have a three-inch style and rail. The the panel would be so skinny in the middle, you wouldn't be able to fit any hardware in it.
Katie: Meaning if you matched the door frame on the drawer f okay. Yeah, that would also look strange in my mind.
TJ: Yeah, yeah, your mind is correct.
Katie: Thank you.
TJ: You're welcome.
Katie: We offer we offer that selectively. We offer that.
TJ: Ha ha.
Katie: Okay, all right.
TJ: okay, so we understand five piece and slab and shaker and shaker with a bead and flat panel and raised panel.
Katie: Yes, yes. Mm-hmm.
TJ: Ha ha ha. Okay.
Katie: Yes.
TJ: one thing that we had talked about in the last cabinet episode that might be helpful to point out here. so if we look at the finish options, so there's a lot of whites and grays to to pick from
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: here. and I the The computer screen does a bad job of showing you what all of them are. And they're not even all like showing up, but like designer white is very, very white. It's the brightest white you can get. Frosty white
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: is a little bit softer. antique white looks like
Katie: Hence why you really need to go see these things in person. Yeah. Yeah, antique white looks like
TJ: Yes. Yeah, you need to see him in person.
Katie: yellow.
TJ: Yeah. yes. And it's certainly yellow compared to designer white, but on the
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: screen it looks a lot like y more yellow orange than it is in real life.
Katie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
TJ: but there there's there's a bunch of standard color options that are available in the in the custom custom, the custom version. If I look at the semi custom, At the painted. So here's simply white. That's their white. you can get alabaster, but now it's not really white anymore.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: so there are the trade-off is the the price is lower, but they limit your options. That is more important than I was gonna say something as a statement, but it it really does depend. For most people that I have worked with, they are less sensitive to the shade of white and more sensitive to the species of wood. like they're looking for a very specific kind of grain in the wood.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: So in the semi-custom line, these are the the species. Alder, cherry, hickory, maple, and I said this in the last episode and I will restate it now. Red oak is an option, but it's a nonsense option. Nobody picks red oak for for cabinets. it's just it's it does not make for a nice looking cabinet. The if you're looking for something that has more grain pattern, pick hickory. so r red oak is technically an option here, but
Katie: But it's not. If I've
TJ: if I'm involved at at at all. I mean, I look, it's it's your kitchen. You can do whatever you want, but I'm gonna do my best to throw my body in front of it because it's gonna look like hot garbage when it's done. yeah, okay.
Katie: There you go. You heard it here. Hot garbage. It
TJ: So right, so really there's four alder, cherry, hickory, and maple. So if I go back to premium custom and we talk about the the species that are available, we can get premium alder which the the grain is a little bit nicer, cherry, which is the same, hickory, maple, red oak again, you're not getting it. But what white oak is a
Katie: Not red oak. Mm-hmm.
TJ: very beautiful, makes her very
Katie: Can we see it?
TJ: beautiful cabinet. and they have walnut. So with white oak, you can get quartzan and rift cut. so if you imagine tree trunk and the the the bark of the tree is taken off and it's laying down flat on its side and somebody just comes and is cutting slabs of that wood just just straight slabs all the way across when we look at red oak like that's that grain that we're seeing that like really wild like W almost
Katie: Okay.
TJ: if If you cut the the log differently, you can get rift cut and you can get quarter quarter, I can never say this, quarter saw. and what that gets is if I just click I can't click these, but if you see that this grain pattern is much straighter
Katie: Yeah, yeah.
TJ: than like the that normal kind of W wavy red oak. So It costs a lot more to to get a a Cortison white oak cabinet. But it is
Katie: But if that matters to you.
TJ: again, the it's it's it's a taste thing. My taste, I think it's beautiful. It's you you get the warmth of the wood, but the grain is very consistent.
Katie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
TJ: so that's that. And then walnut, we have we have a project right now in where is it alexandria that we're doing the island in in walnut I think it's wheaton so it's like it's a very rich like the the grain of walnut is really pretty so
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: the the reason for all me going through all of this is let me stop sharing here it's important to understand what the trade-offs are when you're picking between semi-custom fully custom cabinets. So if a very specific white is important to you, you're probably gonna go with the fully custom line.
Katie: Mm.
TJ: because we saw all of those additional colors on crystal's website but the thing they don't show you is you can also paint any color in the whole world. so if if there's a Benjamin Moore color that you want they'll paint it the Benjamin Moore color. if the species is and the grain pattern is very important to you,
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: then you're you're probably gonna end up so it's imp important to understand the the trade-off there.
Katie: Hmm.
TJ: one other important thing as we're considering cost. There are sneaky ways to make your kitchen package cost more or less. So most cabinets are priced by the box.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: So if if you imagine six feet of cabinet space, you could do six one foot wide cabinets, you could do four 18-inch cabinets, you could do three two-foot cabinets, you could do two three-foot cabinets. Right, or or any any combination. It's the same six feet.
Katie: Anything that's gets you to six, yeah.
TJ: Yes. If you do six one foot cabinets, those six feet of cabinets are gonna cost you significant significantly more money than if you do two three foot cabinets.
Katie: Because more wood hardware that yeah, I guess that makes
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: sense to me. Yeah. So know that.
TJ: Yeah, right. So like they're they're not generally they're priced by the box. So if if you said, you know, I I don't care as much about the the s very specific function of each cabinet,
Katie: Mm.
TJ: I want to make the layout of my kitchen as inexpensive as possible so I could spend more money on the rift-cut white oak,
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: then what you wanted to tell your cabinet designer. is I want my cabinet boxes to be as wide as possible. I want as few cabinets as possible in my kitchen.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: you'll get the added benefit of you actually get more storage space because fewer inches of your kitchen are given to cabinet box frames, drawer glides, all that stuff. But it's
Katie: Yeah. But is that
TJ: it's an go ahead.
Katie: Is that the sort of thing that you know when you're getting quotes at the beginning, when you're saying it's sneaky, to keep bear in mind you might be quoted the six-foot, the the standard six-foot box price and know that yeah, what you were adding within that, however that six feet comes together, that that's gonna raise the price. That's the sneaky part.
TJ: Yeah, it's it's it's sneaky because it's unexpected.
Katie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
TJ: Right? Like maybe conceptually you might understand, yeah, okay, it's a little bit more expensive if I do six spice pullouts in a row as opposed to two standard base cabinets next to one another.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: but you might be surprised when you see how much more expensive it it is. It it might be three or four times more expensive.
Katie: Okay. Wow. Okay. Yeah.
TJ: Like it's a it's a big difference. so that's that's an im
Katie: The more you know.
TJ: the more you know. Yeah, so if if you're if you're budget conscious, just in in general, like if you're redoing your kitchen on a tight budget, it's important to to say like, sh you know, I'd love to have a spice pullout, that would be great, or I'd love to have a tray divider cabinet, or I'd love to have one of those cabinets where My stand mixer can pull up. all of that stuff is gonna add money because you're gonna have more boxes than you might need. So if you're on a tight budget and you're redoing your kitchen, you're gonna tell the person laying the cabinets out, I want as few cabinets to fill the space as possible.
Katie: This does feel like a a place. I'm forgetting if we've talked about it on the podcast. I know we've talked about it in person, where like applying taking the heat map and applying it to your kitchen cabinets would be really
TJ: Mm-hmm.
Katie: helpful in figuring out. Yeah, what do you w what's the best use of every six foot box? Like what's the what's gonna be the most effective use for your needs, for your why in this, so
TJ: Yeah. one
Katie: Do it.
TJ: other one other thing to to note, a lot of people ask about rollout shelves. So
Katie: Uh-huh.
TJ: if people aren't understanding the term, so if you go someplace, if you go to a showroom and they're like, do you want rollout shelves? That's when you open the door and then inside the cabinet there's like drawers inside on the behind the door that you're pulling out and the shelf pulls out and there's no fixed shelves. You might as well just get a drawer base because you're you're
Katie: Hm.
TJ: basically spending the same money on rollout shelves. It might even cost a little bit more depending on the the way the cabinet manufacturer prices their stuff.
Katie: Uh-huh.
TJ: the a bunch of cabinet manufacturers price the accessories inside the cabinet higher than everything else. So if If you just got empty boxes everywhere and then went to container store or whatever and put your knife block and put your cutlery divider and put your rollout shelves in their aftermarket, it would be less expensive than if you got them from the cabinet manufacturer because the markup on those accessory pieces is a lot higher than everything else.
Katie: Okay, yeah.
TJ: but it's When I explain the rollout shelf function to people, they're like, yeah, I'll just do drawers. So here's the thing I normally explain. when you're getting a rollout shelf, you're gonna grab the cabinet door handle and you're gonna open the door, then you're gonna let go, you're gonna put your hand inside the cabinet, you're gonna grab the rollout shelf and you're gonna pull it out toward you. Right? If
Katie: Yes.
TJ: you get a if you get drawers you're gonna grab the handle and pull it out and you're done. So on on
Katie: You you make it sound so simple. It's like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Efficiency.
TJ: but it's I I I do not understand rollout shelves. I've never understood them. They make no sense to me. if it's an aftermarket thing that like you're not redoing your whole kitchen, you just hate your standard shelves and you want rollout shelves, that I understand. But if you're doing your kitchen from scratch and all the
Katie: Hm, yeah.
TJ: cabinets are new, I it's it's I find it bew bewildering. I just don't understand why anybody would do a roll if if you're a person Who understands rollout shelves, and you're like, hey, dum dum, this is why you do a rollout shelf. but please let me know. I would love to be educated. Yeah. because here here's
Katie: Life changing. Put it in the comments. Email us.
TJ: the the the other thing is the rollout shelf has to be narrower than the opening. So you get a little bit less storage space than you would if it's a drawer
Katie: Yeah, yeah.
TJ: anyway. so it's extra work and less storage space and it's the same money. I don't get it. So I'll get off my rollout shelf soapbox.
Katie: Once again, TJ, changing lives. I actually would if I'd
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: be really interested. That's something that someone who because I rollout shelves, when I think about it, are something that are appealing to me, but you've just made a very good point. I actually would love to hear if anyone's like, here is the argument, even if it's a very specific one for rollout shelves.
TJ: Yeah, I can only
Katie: But
TJ: think of one. No, I'm gonna tell you.
Katie: If if you're well, is it if you're working with a kitchen that you already have and you're not doing a full renovation, you're just
TJ: no, no, no. That's fine. That's that's the only place I understand them. If the
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: only r if you said I never use my cabinets, I don't cook. And I just want the look of a a drawer on top and then a door below on every
Katie: Yeah. Yeah.
TJ: single cabinet in my kitchen. I just want it to all look exactly the same. and you know, I'm gonna write, yeah.
Katie: Right. It's not about what's on the inside. It's it's
TJ: and I don't even know why I'm doing rollout shelves. I'm just doing because I want to tell my friends that I have rollout shelves because I'm never going to use them. Right? I can't I I
Katie: So
TJ: can't think of another reason, Katie.
Katie: And that's not a great one. That's not you're like,
TJ: Ha ha ha.
Katie: let's I I'd wanna dig into that why a little more. Like, tell me about these friends who seem to really care about roll-up shelves. Okay, I'm
TJ: Yeah. I've had clients in the past where their their kitchen is art. They do not cook. They go out every night, but they're redoing their kitchen because their friends redid their kitchen and now their kitchen looks old and they're like, Well, I can't can't live in this thing. and the
Katie: okay. okay, yeah.
TJ: the you know, the the the why is it's a different kind of why.
Katie: Mm.
TJ: you know, you it's it's kitchen as status. so it's
Katie: And I'm thinking kind of on the other end of like, I'm trying to think if there's anything accessibility-wise or you know, that makes rollout cabinets easier than drawers for some folks, but I I don't know. but okay, wow. I'm bought in. I'm I am, I continue to be.
TJ: Ha ha ha.
Katie: Crazy for cabinets.
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: are we going to have a part three, you think? and and for now is there anything that the people have to know in this crazy for cabinets?
TJ: I don't know. No, I mean there's you could we could talk for three hours about cabinets, but the longer we talk about it, the more specific it's gonna be to the line of cabinets that we rep. So I I think we've probably exhausted our general cabinet. Like there's there's that's enough. No, there won't be a three because it's the rest of it's like so n so nitty gritty.
Katie: That's it. We've done it. We've done it. Well, thank you for joining us for
TJ: Wait, wait, I just thought of one thing. I just this is important. sorry. I you were i it no it's a no, it's a real practical
Katie: Nitty gritty, was it the Go, go Get it in, get it in, TJ.
TJ: thing. If if if you're doing your kitchen yourself, and like you're going to Home Depot or whatever, if you're if it's if this is a DIY thing, this is something that that gets people tripped up. I made this mistake when I was early in my kitchen designing career. if you're getting a tall cabinet, like imagine a tall pantry cabinet or a double oven cabinet, something that's basically floor to ceiling. If it's an option, you have to get it with what's called a loose toe. So the the toe kick space that we talked about in the first cabinet episode, that four and a half inches of height, you could get that as a separate, like a pedestal almost. So like the toe kick piece goes down, and then you pick up the the tall cabinet and rest it on top. The the reason is You won't be able to tip the tall cabinet up if you don't get the loose toe. So you'll you'll have to do some kind of crazy maneuvering where like you get the cabinet from the garage or out front, like vertically through your front door, or so like some kind of weird up and down motion, and then like through your kitchen cased opening, like some weird up and down, like it is very hard to maneuver a cabinet, a tall cabinet with an attached toe, especially if it's close to the height of your ceiling, like if you don't have a lot of room for crown molding.
Katie: Yeah. Yep.
TJ: so if if you're laying it out yourself, do yourself
Katie: Toe.
TJ: a favor, loose toe. That's that's the end of my no more general stuff. That's it. Yeah.
Katie: Loose toe. Loose toe. Amazing. Thanks, TJ. Thanks for walking us through the wonderful world of cabinets
TJ: Ha ha.
Katie: again. Too what is the too fast, too furious, f too too crazy, too cabinet-y. I'm excited to
TJ: Yeah, nailed it. Way to go.
Katie: see what we end up calling this. But until then, we'll see you next time.
TJ: Bye.
Katie: And I'm Katie. And today we are returning for more about cabinets. because one episode clearly wasn't enough. So we are crazy for cabinets again. Again.
TJ: Part due.
Katie: Pard. Yeah. Who would have thought? I not us. I don't know, maybe you.
TJ: yeah, the people have spoken. I mean there's a
Katie: The
TJ: lot to talk about with cabinets, but when we saw the reaction on the YouTubes, we were like, we gotta talk about cabinets again. And here we are. Yeah. I I thought you were gonna carry the water
Katie: We gotta give them more. And you can. You you you could talk about cabinets.
TJ: on this one. No?
Katie: I could do that. I could do that. Let's talk about
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: things we put in our cappets. I can
TJ: Ha ha
Katie: I can fill.
TJ: I I have a I have a banter question for you, Katie.
Katie: what is it?
TJ: So so this this episode we're going back for seconds. Is there a
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: food that if it's available you'll always go back for seconds for?
Katie: First of all, TJ.
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: Fabulous job with the Bamter question.
TJ: Ha ha ha.
Katie: Probably. my gosh. It's probably French fries. yeah, shoe
TJ: Yeah, not shocking.
Katie: shoestring though. Like shoestring french fries. And there is a, there's like a mini like chain in the DC area called Rare. Have you been? Have you probably not?
TJ: Uh-huh.
Katie: but it's a basically they will bring steak. Cooked the way you want it and French fries to your table until you were like, stop. Until you're like, stop,
TJ: No.
Katie: stop. But the way they used to do it is they would like I'm pretty sure the it like they would cover your table in like in a craft paper, in like culinary
TJ: Uh-huh.
Katie: craft paper. And the fries just kind of get like dumped onto the middle of the table. It's just a pile of shoestring fries.
TJ: it's like crabs.
Katie: Yes. Yes, but better in my I'm sorry.
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: I'm very sorry to everyone who to Marylanders, I guess. but I if I would go to all kind of crabbing gatherings if it was shoestring fries. So that's probably it. What about I have a feeling yours is gonna be Mine's like the greasiest food imaginable.
TJ: Ha ha ha.
Katie: What's yours, TJ?
TJ: Mine is raw kale, Katie? Just I'm kidding.
Katie: Yeah, yeah, I was not gonna I was
TJ: I was I I was like, What's the opposite of a lot of french fries? I was
Katie: But to be fair to be fair, like we both know there is this like Brussels and kale Caesar salad that I
TJ: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Katie: you could give me a trough of it and I would
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: yeah, all day. no, what is yours?
TJ: it's also potato based. So look at us. but I I I mash potatoes.
Katie: okay. Okay.
TJ: Yeah. Yep.
Katie: That's a that's you're you're kind of a champ because mashed potatoes super filling. Like super filling. You get that's a choice. That's a choice. But I love it. So so we would be we'd be fine in the potato famine. We'd survive.
TJ: yeah. Yeah. the other I have a I have another one though. Yeah.
Katie: What what were you what were you saying?
TJ: There there's a there's another one. There I do have a I mean not like mashed potatoes are healthy, but there's so cat makes these cookies. I have all these weird dietary things, so cat has become qu quite a good baker.
Katie: my gosh, I've had one of these cookies.
TJ: To to meet my dietary restrictions. So she makes oatmeal chocolate chip cookies that are vegan and gluten free. And when I say go back for seconds, I mean like I might eat a dozen and then go back for a second helping of another dozen. it is by far the least healthy thing I do in my whole life. Yeah.
Katie: W a dozen is a serving in this case. that no, y you've shared them before. They are so good.
TJ: Uh-huh.
Katie: So so good. You know what else? You know what else I'd go back for seconds for? The
TJ: What?
Katie: the cherry chip ice cream that you made. I don't know if I
TJ: get out, for real?
Katie: for real. I I think I tried to make it on my own.
TJ: Mm-hmm.
Katie: I think I had to like turn it into a milkshake or something. It it didn't go according to plan.
TJ: Ha ha ha.
Katie: but so good. If it wasn't like filling, super filling, I would yes, very good. What now, okay. I'm distracted. We are not here to talk about food.
TJ: No no
Katie: Again, to my disappointment, we're here for cabinets. What
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: else is there to s to say, TJ?
TJ: no, nothing. I just thought it would be funny if we started an episode to talk about cabinets. That's it. No, we did it all in the first one. Yeah. so in the in the
Katie: That's all. Great. Now TJ has a song for you. About cabinets. Take it away, TJ.
TJ: Yeah, just just hear me ad lib a cabinet song for the next twenty minutes.
Katie: Next twenty, yeah. I believe in you. Okay. But
TJ: Thank you. so in the the first cabinet episode we did, we were talking about the basics of the cabinet box. Right? like how tall is it typically? What should you be looking out for when people tell you the
Katie: Mm.
TJ: thickness of the box, face frame, no face frame, inset, not inset, a semi-custom full overlay. versa fully custom and what your options might be, a very inexpensive full overlay versus a higher end like we covered all these things. We did the sketch up model, all all of that good stuff, right?
Katie: Did a lot. That was that was a episode chockful of knowledge. Chockful. Chockful.
TJ: Yes. Chock chockful.
Katie: Up. Are you
TJ: so I I
Katie: Are you getting SketchUp ready? Is that what you're
TJ: No, no, this is not a sketch up thing. I am gonna I am gonna share though, because I I think it would be helpful to talk about other things that you might encounter when you're going to the cabinet showroom. because you'll hear you'll hear terms
Katie: Makes it sound so exciting. Yes.
TJ: what else? so let me share. Let me share my screen and y Katie, you tell me when this pops up.
Katie: Waiting, waiting. There it is. it it's up. Yeah.
TJ: Okay, do you so we we sell a cabinet line called Crystal. So I'm on Crystal's website, and what I wanted to do was look at some of these doorstyles to to call out the terminology so that
Katie: Mm.
TJ: when you go someplace and Maybe the cabinet designer doesn't really care all that much about educating you on what your options are. And they're just like, Do you want a slab drawer or a five-piece drawer? That's that's what the cabinet designer sounds like. and you're like, I don't know. well
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: so we're gonna we're gonna talk about that now. So I'm just gonna click on this one right here, this door. So do okay,
Katie: Yeah. Yeah, I like that one.
TJ: good. So Am I am I zoomed in appropriately on the drawer front?
Katie: You are, you are, very appropriately.
TJ: Okay, okay. So this is a five piece drawer. And the reason it's five pieces, it's because it's quite literally made of five pieces of wood. So
Katie: Mm.
TJ: imagine a picture frame, if if you can't see this, if you're listening, imagine there's a picture frame. There's a a left side, a top, a right side, and a bottom. So that's four pieces. And then the fifth piece is on a picture frame, there will be a piece of glass in the center. In this case, it's the piece of wood. that makes the the panel of the drawer front. So if if you hear the term five piece, it is referring to the the picture frame that that you see on the drawer front. So one, two, three, four, and then the middle panel is five, five piece drawer front. does that make sense?
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: Okay. the other option is let's just click on this one. Doesn't really matter. This one is a slab drawer front. This is one piece of wood. So this is a slab. So it's not
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: typically called a one piece, and the other one's called a five piece, so it's it's a slab. so if you hear somebody say, Do you want a five-piece drawer or do you want a slab drawer? We're referring to the number of pieces of
Katie: This is what we're talking about.
TJ: wood it takes to make. Yep. So this is it.
Katie: Got it.
TJ: Is that is it so s slab and five piece? Does that make sense?
Katie: Clear as day.
TJ: Okay, good. Now on this, on the Crystal website where it shows you all the door styles that we're looking at, all of these are a single door and a single drawer. So I'm gonna explain something related to a option you might have with drawers, but looking at a door doesn't really help. So if you imagine a cabinet that has three drawers on it. And no doors.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: That's called a a three drawer base. Typically the top drawer is a little bit skinnier and the two bottom drawers are a little bit wider. Depending on the the type of cabinet line it is, maybe we can find one. If I click on, I mean we're here. good, right there. Did not take long.
Katie: Wow.
TJ: Alright, so this the the cabinet on in the picture I'm sharing on the right hand side, this is a three-drawer base. So
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: the top one's a little bit skinnier and then the the bottom two are a little bit taller. So you might choose if if you're doing a kitchen that has a combination of drawer fronts and doors, you might choose to have the top drawer be slab. And the bottom drawers be five piece. And the reason you might choose to do that is if you're doing slab drawers everywhere.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: Then it sometimes looks weird when you have a door style next to it. So when you if you imagine lining up two cabinets next to one another, the cabinet on the left has a single drawer and a door, and the cabinet on the right has three drawers. The
Katie: Mm.
TJ: door, the drawers on the top line up, and then the two drawers on the right line up with the door on the left. So if you do slab drawers everywhere, you're gonna have flat. on the drawers on top and the two drawers on the side, and then a door style next to the flat drawers. So
Katie: Got it. A door s a door style you're saying that isn't slab, that isn't okay, okay.
TJ: Right. Yeah. Most people don't do slab everything, but if you're doing slab everything, you know, there's no consideration here. It's fine. But mo if like the most common type of cabinet is a shaker. So if if you're doing a shaker door,
Katie: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
TJ: then this is this is relevant. or any kind of door.
Katie: Yeah, show us.
TJ: so let's just I'll find a shaker real quick.
Katie: Show us shaker.
TJ: yeah. Right. So if we're looking at this shaker door, so there's a slab door on top, there's the shaker door below. If there was another cabinet to the right of this that was all slab, you would see slab drawer, slab drawer, slab drawer. And it looks to me
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: a little bit disjointed. So
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: one option you have, depending on the the cabinet manufacturer, is you could do top drawer slab only and five
Katie: Uh-huh.
TJ: piece everywhere else. And what that gets you is the same shaker style on the two drawers that line up with the door that's next to it.
Katie: And when you say that depends on cabinet manufacturer, do you mean whether it is semi-custom or fully custom or really just depends on the company?
TJ: Depends on the company.
Katie: Okay, got it. I also am curious how one gets the job of naming these styles, these door styles, because if there's a way to apply for that, I would like to.
TJ: You know, you would be good at that. That would be a good job for you. Do you want to just
Katie: I don't I don't know if I
TJ: rename them? We can we can call them whatever
Katie: No, I think this one di I
TJ: we want.
Katie: boy, what would you call this one?
TJ: I well, I don't know, that's your job. but we'll have a whole translation key that I'll have to go through when I'm actually ordering the cabinet. So it's like, they they picked the squiggle door, which what is that
Katie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. N no.
TJ: really in Crystal Term? the Dan the Danberry, okay.
Katie: Like I'd give them all like basic names. I'd be like, this is Jill. This is Jill.
TJ: Ha ha ha.
Katie: And you know, that over there is Cornelia. Like it would and yeah, maybe maybe I shouldn't. Anyway, okay. No, that makes sense.
TJ: okay. So this is this is if it's all slab.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: Right, so this is a more modern look.
Katie: Yeah, I I wouldn't call this Celeste. I would I would call that like
TJ: No.
Katie: I would call it Ingrid. I would call or like
TJ: Ingrid.
Katie: Ingrid or Shay. Something like that. I don't I need I'm not good with modern names. Continue. You just showed us an all-slab, drawer and door. That's the point.
TJ: Yeah. And then we we talked about Shaker.
Katie: Uh-huh.
TJ: so this one, then we can get start getting into panels. And you can get a flat panel or a raised panel. So here. So see this one, it looks like there's molding put on top of it.
Katie: Mm.
TJ: Like there's a lot of shadow lines here. This is a raised panel door.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: It's this is very traditional. One other thing to note is some cabinet makers will let you change the outside edge profile. So if if you look at this this door style, this is a slab drawer up here, but it has an outside edge profile on it.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: So it's not just a straight slab, it's got a little zuz out here.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: So the fully custom lines will typically give you options for this. Now it it would be weird if you changed the outside edge of this drawer to square because this door style comes with this bevel on the outside
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: edge. So the the drawer matches the door, but in theory. with a custom line you could change it.
Katie: Okay. Okay.
TJ: So that's an example of a raised panel. This is a flat panel. So it's sort of like that shaker that we looked at before, but you can
Katie: Mm.
TJ: see there's that outside edge profile on the door and the drawer front. And then there's also an inside bead around. So if somebody wanted a shaker door but a little bit more detail on it. Something like this is is typically a good option. Sometimes we would call this shaker with a bead.
Katie: Love it.
TJ: and and there's a a few that that's this is actually in the in the fully custom crystal line, this is one of the most popular door styles, French Villa Square.
Katie: Yeah. I can see why.
TJ: yeah. So then when we're we're talking about Shaker, here, let's let's compare a couple. So this this hamstead one is shaker with a bead. so that's not a great one for what I was trying to do. This this is the one. Okay, so this is this is Regent's. This is Crystal's standard shaker door. If we compare that to Gentry, do you see? So the the picture frame is called a style and rail. The style and rail on the picture frame of this door is much thicker than it
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: was on Regent's. So typically it depends on the cabinet maker, but typically on a shaker door, the style and rail are something around two inches. Might be inch and three quarters, might be two and a quarter, but something around what we're looking at here is this picture frame is something around two inches.
Katie: Okay. Okay.
TJ: And when we go to this other door, gentry, this one might be something like three inches or three and a quarter inches.
Katie: I don't think we're seeing gentry right now in the screen share. If that's what you wanted us to see. Saw the regent. Yeah.
TJ: Yep, sure is. Thank you. I see. I'm only sharing this. okay. Just just lock it in your head. Just lock that
Katie: Locked.
TJ: region in your head. Okay, good, perfect. here's gentry.
Katie: Yeah, whoa.
TJ: Okay, so the the style in the rail is much chunkier. So this might be three or three and a quarter inches.
Katie: Okay, okay.
TJ: And then if we went back to that first one we looked at. That one was much narrower. Right? This is cascade.
Katie: The yeah.
TJ: This one might be like an inch. Right? So typically the narrower it gets, the more modern it looks.
Katie: Mm.
TJ: One important thing to make a note of, it again, this depends on the manufacturer, but the height of the drawer front might be something like six inches. So on this cascade door where the style and rail is very narrow, it's a more modern look, you have plenty of room on the center panel to put a drawer pole. Whatever your cabinet hardware is going to be, there's plenty of room here
Katie: Okay, yeah.
TJ: to put it. If if I go back to that the gentry, where did it go? It's hiding from me.
Katie: We'll find you. Uh-huh.
TJ: Yeah. Do you see they're not even showing the drawer as five-piece? They're only showing you a slab.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: because there's not enough room on this drawer front to have a three-inch style and rail. The the panel would be so skinny in the middle, you wouldn't be able to fit any hardware in it.
Katie: Meaning if you matched the door frame on the drawer f okay. Yeah, that would also look strange in my mind.
TJ: Yeah, yeah, your mind is correct.
Katie: Thank you.
TJ: You're welcome.
Katie: We offer we offer that selectively. We offer that.
TJ: Ha ha.
Katie: Okay, all right.
TJ: okay, so we understand five piece and slab and shaker and shaker with a bead and flat panel and raised panel.
Katie: Yes, yes. Mm-hmm.
TJ: Ha ha ha. Okay.
Katie: Yes.
TJ: one thing that we had talked about in the last cabinet episode that might be helpful to point out here. so if we look at the finish options, so there's a lot of whites and grays to to pick from
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: here. and I the The computer screen does a bad job of showing you what all of them are. And they're not even all like showing up, but like designer white is very, very white. It's the brightest white you can get. Frosty white
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: is a little bit softer. antique white looks like
Katie: Hence why you really need to go see these things in person. Yeah. Yeah, antique white looks like
TJ: Yes. Yeah, you need to see him in person.
Katie: yellow.
TJ: Yeah. yes. And it's certainly yellow compared to designer white, but on the
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: screen it looks a lot like y more yellow orange than it is in real life.
Katie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
TJ: but there there's there's a bunch of standard color options that are available in the in the custom custom, the custom version. If I look at the semi custom, At the painted. So here's simply white. That's their white. you can get alabaster, but now it's not really white anymore.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
TJ: so there are the trade-off is the the price is lower, but they limit your options. That is more important than I was gonna say something as a statement, but it it really does depend. For most people that I have worked with, they are less sensitive to the shade of white and more sensitive to the species of wood. like they're looking for a very specific kind of grain in the wood.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: So in the semi-custom line, these are the the species. Alder, cherry, hickory, maple, and I said this in the last episode and I will restate it now. Red oak is an option, but it's a nonsense option. Nobody picks red oak for for cabinets. it's just it's it does not make for a nice looking cabinet. The if you're looking for something that has more grain pattern, pick hickory. so r red oak is technically an option here, but
Katie: But it's not. If I've
TJ: if I'm involved at at at all. I mean, I look, it's it's your kitchen. You can do whatever you want, but I'm gonna do my best to throw my body in front of it because it's gonna look like hot garbage when it's done. yeah, okay.
Katie: There you go. You heard it here. Hot garbage. It
TJ: So right, so really there's four alder, cherry, hickory, and maple. So if I go back to premium custom and we talk about the the species that are available, we can get premium alder which the the grain is a little bit nicer, cherry, which is the same, hickory, maple, red oak again, you're not getting it. But what white oak is a
Katie: Not red oak. Mm-hmm.
TJ: very beautiful, makes her very
Katie: Can we see it?
TJ: beautiful cabinet. and they have walnut. So with white oak, you can get quartzan and rift cut. so if you imagine tree trunk and the the the bark of the tree is taken off and it's laying down flat on its side and somebody just comes and is cutting slabs of that wood just just straight slabs all the way across when we look at red oak like that's that grain that we're seeing that like really wild like W almost
Katie: Okay.
TJ: if If you cut the the log differently, you can get rift cut and you can get quarter quarter, I can never say this, quarter saw. and what that gets is if I just click I can't click these, but if you see that this grain pattern is much straighter
Katie: Yeah, yeah.
TJ: than like the that normal kind of W wavy red oak. So It costs a lot more to to get a a Cortison white oak cabinet. But it is
Katie: But if that matters to you.
TJ: again, the it's it's it's a taste thing. My taste, I think it's beautiful. It's you you get the warmth of the wood, but the grain is very consistent.
Katie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
TJ: so that's that. And then walnut, we have we have a project right now in where is it alexandria that we're doing the island in in walnut I think it's wheaton so it's like it's a very rich like the the grain of walnut is really pretty so
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: the the reason for all me going through all of this is let me stop sharing here it's important to understand what the trade-offs are when you're picking between semi-custom fully custom cabinets. So if a very specific white is important to you, you're probably gonna go with the fully custom line.
Katie: Mm.
TJ: because we saw all of those additional colors on crystal's website but the thing they don't show you is you can also paint any color in the whole world. so if if there's a Benjamin Moore color that you want they'll paint it the Benjamin Moore color. if the species is and the grain pattern is very important to you,
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: then you're you're probably gonna end up so it's imp important to understand the the trade-off there.
Katie: Hmm.
TJ: one other important thing as we're considering cost. There are sneaky ways to make your kitchen package cost more or less. So most cabinets are priced by the box.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: So if if you imagine six feet of cabinet space, you could do six one foot wide cabinets, you could do four 18-inch cabinets, you could do three two-foot cabinets, you could do two three-foot cabinets. Right, or or any any combination. It's the same six feet.
Katie: Anything that's gets you to six, yeah.
TJ: Yes. If you do six one foot cabinets, those six feet of cabinets are gonna cost you significant significantly more money than if you do two three foot cabinets.
Katie: Because more wood hardware that yeah, I guess that makes
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: sense to me. Yeah. So know that.
TJ: Yeah, right. So like they're they're not generally they're priced by the box. So if if you said, you know, I I don't care as much about the the s very specific function of each cabinet,
Katie: Mm.
TJ: I want to make the layout of my kitchen as inexpensive as possible so I could spend more money on the rift-cut white oak,
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: then what you wanted to tell your cabinet designer. is I want my cabinet boxes to be as wide as possible. I want as few cabinets as possible in my kitchen.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: you'll get the added benefit of you actually get more storage space because fewer inches of your kitchen are given to cabinet box frames, drawer glides, all that stuff. But it's
Katie: Yeah. But is that
TJ: it's an go ahead.
Katie: Is that the sort of thing that you know when you're getting quotes at the beginning, when you're saying it's sneaky, to keep bear in mind you might be quoted the six-foot, the the standard six-foot box price and know that yeah, what you were adding within that, however that six feet comes together, that that's gonna raise the price. That's the sneaky part.
TJ: Yeah, it's it's it's sneaky because it's unexpected.
Katie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
TJ: Right? Like maybe conceptually you might understand, yeah, okay, it's a little bit more expensive if I do six spice pullouts in a row as opposed to two standard base cabinets next to one another.
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: but you might be surprised when you see how much more expensive it it is. It it might be three or four times more expensive.
Katie: Okay. Wow. Okay. Yeah.
TJ: Like it's a it's a big difference. so that's that's an im
Katie: The more you know.
TJ: the more you know. Yeah, so if if you're if you're budget conscious, just in in general, like if you're redoing your kitchen on a tight budget, it's important to to say like, sh you know, I'd love to have a spice pullout, that would be great, or I'd love to have a tray divider cabinet, or I'd love to have one of those cabinets where My stand mixer can pull up. all of that stuff is gonna add money because you're gonna have more boxes than you might need. So if you're on a tight budget and you're redoing your kitchen, you're gonna tell the person laying the cabinets out, I want as few cabinets to fill the space as possible.
Katie: This does feel like a a place. I'm forgetting if we've talked about it on the podcast. I know we've talked about it in person, where like applying taking the heat map and applying it to your kitchen cabinets would be really
TJ: Mm-hmm.
Katie: helpful in figuring out. Yeah, what do you w what's the best use of every six foot box? Like what's the what's gonna be the most effective use for your needs, for your why in this, so
TJ: Yeah. one
Katie: Do it.
TJ: other one other thing to to note, a lot of people ask about rollout shelves. So
Katie: Uh-huh.
TJ: if people aren't understanding the term, so if you go someplace, if you go to a showroom and they're like, do you want rollout shelves? That's when you open the door and then inside the cabinet there's like drawers inside on the behind the door that you're pulling out and the shelf pulls out and there's no fixed shelves. You might as well just get a drawer base because you're you're
Katie: Hm.
TJ: basically spending the same money on rollout shelves. It might even cost a little bit more depending on the the way the cabinet manufacturer prices their stuff.
Katie: Uh-huh.
TJ: the a bunch of cabinet manufacturers price the accessories inside the cabinet higher than everything else. So if If you just got empty boxes everywhere and then went to container store or whatever and put your knife block and put your cutlery divider and put your rollout shelves in their aftermarket, it would be less expensive than if you got them from the cabinet manufacturer because the markup on those accessory pieces is a lot higher than everything else.
Katie: Okay, yeah.
TJ: but it's When I explain the rollout shelf function to people, they're like, yeah, I'll just do drawers. So here's the thing I normally explain. when you're getting a rollout shelf, you're gonna grab the cabinet door handle and you're gonna open the door, then you're gonna let go, you're gonna put your hand inside the cabinet, you're gonna grab the rollout shelf and you're gonna pull it out toward you. Right? If
Katie: Yes.
TJ: you get a if you get drawers you're gonna grab the handle and pull it out and you're done. So on on
Katie: You you make it sound so simple. It's like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Efficiency.
TJ: but it's I I I do not understand rollout shelves. I've never understood them. They make no sense to me. if it's an aftermarket thing that like you're not redoing your whole kitchen, you just hate your standard shelves and you want rollout shelves, that I understand. But if you're doing your kitchen from scratch and all the
Katie: Hm, yeah.
TJ: cabinets are new, I it's it's I find it bew bewildering. I just don't understand why anybody would do a roll if if you're a person Who understands rollout shelves, and you're like, hey, dum dum, this is why you do a rollout shelf. but please let me know. I would love to be educated. Yeah. because here here's
Katie: Life changing. Put it in the comments. Email us.
TJ: the the the other thing is the rollout shelf has to be narrower than the opening. So you get a little bit less storage space than you would if it's a drawer
Katie: Yeah, yeah.
TJ: anyway. so it's extra work and less storage space and it's the same money. I don't get it. So I'll get off my rollout shelf soapbox.
Katie: Once again, TJ, changing lives. I actually would if I'd
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: be really interested. That's something that someone who because I rollout shelves, when I think about it, are something that are appealing to me, but you've just made a very good point. I actually would love to hear if anyone's like, here is the argument, even if it's a very specific one for rollout shelves.
TJ: Yeah, I can only
Katie: But
TJ: think of one. No, I'm gonna tell you.
Katie: If if you're well, is it if you're working with a kitchen that you already have and you're not doing a full renovation, you're just
TJ: no, no, no. That's fine. That's that's the only place I understand them. If the
Katie: Yeah.
TJ: only r if you said I never use my cabinets, I don't cook. And I just want the look of a a drawer on top and then a door below on every
Katie: Yeah. Yeah.
TJ: single cabinet in my kitchen. I just want it to all look exactly the same. and you know, I'm gonna write, yeah.
Katie: Right. It's not about what's on the inside. It's it's
TJ: and I don't even know why I'm doing rollout shelves. I'm just doing because I want to tell my friends that I have rollout shelves because I'm never going to use them. Right? I can't I I
Katie: So
TJ: can't think of another reason, Katie.
Katie: And that's not a great one. That's not you're like,
TJ: Ha ha ha.
Katie: let's I I'd wanna dig into that why a little more. Like, tell me about these friends who seem to really care about roll-up shelves. Okay, I'm
TJ: Yeah. I've had clients in the past where their their kitchen is art. They do not cook. They go out every night, but they're redoing their kitchen because their friends redid their kitchen and now their kitchen looks old and they're like, Well, I can't can't live in this thing. and the
Katie: okay. okay, yeah.
TJ: the you know, the the the why is it's a different kind of why.
Katie: Mm.
TJ: you know, you it's it's kitchen as status. so it's
Katie: And I'm thinking kind of on the other end of like, I'm trying to think if there's anything accessibility-wise or you know, that makes rollout cabinets easier than drawers for some folks, but I I don't know. but okay, wow. I'm bought in. I'm I am, I continue to be.
TJ: Ha ha ha.
Katie: Crazy for cabinets.
TJ: Yeah.
Katie: are we going to have a part three, you think? and and for now is there anything that the people have to know in this crazy for cabinets?
TJ: I don't know. No, I mean there's you could we could talk for three hours about cabinets, but the longer we talk about it, the more specific it's gonna be to the line of cabinets that we rep. So I I think we've probably exhausted our general cabinet. Like there's there's that's enough. No, there won't be a three because it's the rest of it's like so n so nitty gritty.
Katie: That's it. We've done it. We've done it. Well, thank you for joining us for
TJ: Wait, wait, I just thought of one thing. I just this is important. sorry. I you were i it no it's a no, it's a real practical
Katie: Nitty gritty, was it the Go, go Get it in, get it in, TJ.
TJ: thing. If if if you're doing your kitchen yourself, and like you're going to Home Depot or whatever, if you're if it's if this is a DIY thing, this is something that that gets people tripped up. I made this mistake when I was early in my kitchen designing career. if you're getting a tall cabinet, like imagine a tall pantry cabinet or a double oven cabinet, something that's basically floor to ceiling. If it's an option, you have to get it with what's called a loose toe. So the the toe kick space that we talked about in the first cabinet episode, that four and a half inches of height, you could get that as a separate, like a pedestal almost. So like the toe kick piece goes down, and then you pick up the the tall cabinet and rest it on top. The the reason is You won't be able to tip the tall cabinet up if you don't get the loose toe. So you'll you'll have to do some kind of crazy maneuvering where like you get the cabinet from the garage or out front, like vertically through your front door, or so like some kind of weird up and down motion, and then like through your kitchen cased opening, like some weird up and down, like it is very hard to maneuver a cabinet, a tall cabinet with an attached toe, especially if it's close to the height of your ceiling, like if you don't have a lot of room for crown molding.
Katie: Yeah. Yep.
TJ: so if if you're laying it out yourself, do yourself
Katie: Toe.
TJ: a favor, loose toe. That's that's the end of my no more general stuff. That's it. Yeah.
Katie: Loose toe. Loose toe. Amazing. Thanks, TJ. Thanks for walking us through the wonderful world of cabinets
TJ: Ha ha.
Katie: again. Too what is the too fast, too furious, f too too crazy, too cabinet-y. I'm excited to
TJ: Yeah, nailed it. Way to go.
Katie: see what we end up calling this. But until then, we'll see you next time.
TJ: Bye.
