Episode 37: Founder-led Sales Mistake #1
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[00:00:00]
Alex Allain: Welcome to decoding sales, a podcast where an engineer, that's me, Alex, and a salesperson,
Peter Ahn: that's me, Peter,
Alex Allain: talk about the art and science of sales as it relates to life and business.
In this episode, I'm really excited to talk about something that I think is going to really matter to a lot of founders who are listening to this call, specifically what they're doing wrong. A. K. A. What are the top mistakes that Peter is seeing early stage founders make in their sales process? How are they losing deals, wasting time, and leaving money on the table?
So Peter, I'm really excited for this because I feel like you have your pulse on really the heart of early stage sales. And that's why people love working with you and hearing from you. So,, just kick us off. Like, tell us a little bit about maybe like, is there a great anecdote you can share of like somebody who really hit a wall here?
And , what was the blocker and how did they overcome it? [00:01:00]
Peter Ahn: Yeah, so I'll actually, , if you don't mind, I'll just lay out all three at a high level right now. I'll just name them, and then we can dive into each one, if that works.
Alex Allain: Let's do it.
, let's give that TLDR for folks who are just diving in.
Peter Ahn: Exactly.
So, so the most common things I see is, first of all, , treating Outbound as if you're a known brand. So, , I think a lot of founders are,, over explaining their product, not investing a ton into their personal brand, and it shows in generic outbound messaging. So that's the first thing.
Second thing I see a ton of is not disqualifying bad fit leads early enough. So a lot of founders I talk to are spending way too much time on deals that are never going to close. The last thing that is a big mistake is a lot of founders, I think, end up negotiating against themselves with regards to, you Setting the price point and understanding what the true value of their product is.
There's a lot of assumptions being made around what specific companies can afford and , , not a lot of proactive work around. This is the [00:02:00] price because of XYZ reason and I'm confident in the premium nature of that price. So those are the three, , at a high level that I see, , commonly, , in, in my coaching sessions.
Things that I need to coach into, , founders as a mentality shift to get away from those founder led sales mistakes.
Alex Allain: That's great. And I like what you said about mentality. I think we'll probably come back to that. But before we do, , can you just maybe take each of those and paint a picture for what, you're like concretely talking about?
Like maybe if there's an anecdote about each of those, an example of each of those?
Peter Ahn: Yes, so I'll give a very specific anecdote. And the first one, because it's happened several times, I'll talk about it in generalities. But, , I've routinely spoken to founders where they're like, Hey, Peter, I want feedback on my first email.
And it's a completely cold email. Or let's say it's a first LinkedIn message. And oftentimes the emails read something like, I'm the founder of Peter Ahn Sales. , I [00:03:00] provide early stage coaching and these are the three benefits. You're going to become more authentic in sales.
, you're going to close larger deals and you're also going to learn, , the process of enterprise sales from start to finish. If you want to book time with me, click on my Calendly link and book a 15 minutes. Now, there's a lot of things wrong with that, but the first thing that's wrong with that is that I'm assuming that people know who I am in that message because I'm asking for a meeting on the very first interaction and I'm expecting people to look at three bullet points and to trust that I can actually solve their sales problems, but that's not the right way to outbound.
Peter Ahn: I mean, we've talked about this before, but you need to provide value. You need to , draw people into your brand before you ask for time. And so a lot of what I tell founders is don't do that in the first email. Don't explain your product features and spray and pray and hope that one of the pain points is going to align.
, make sure that you're talking about a single [00:04:00] pain point and providing value around that pain point, and then drawing people into your LinkedIn profile, into your website so that they could do some research and then Gain some trust through their own assessment of the content that you have out there and then engage with you.
So, so yeah, that, that's a very concrete example. Again, , This happens routinely, like every single week I look at these cold emails and it's the same kind of pattern. And I don't know where the founders are getting this formula. Actually, I can get a sense for where they're getting the formula, but it doesn't work for founder led sales.
It doesn't work for brands that have no brand.
Alex Allain: Can you, I love that. I thought the example you gave was fantastic. Could you outline what the good version of that email looks like? I love the way you did it just for yourself, because people, if they're listening to the podcast, they probably do know who you are.
, so maybe that even resonated a little bit, but. what's the A plus version of that email from Peter?
Peter Ahn: Yeah. If it's completely cold, I would probably, cause a lot of my clientele is on LinkedIn, , or Twitter. So I would choose one [00:05:00] of those platforms. I would reach out and say, Hey, I noticed you're an early stage founder.
Congrats on getting XYZ company off the ground. I actually recorded a 20 minute clip on three common founder led sales mistakes that I found founders need to avoid. And I'd love to send that to you. Are you interested? And so that would be the first message. Certain number of people will raise their hand and say, I actually am interested in whatever that recording is.
Then on step two, I would send the recording, I would send the deck as well, because some people won't want to look at the recording, they'll just want to peruse the deck because they don't have a lot of time, especially founders. And, , After that, if they don't reply, I'll follow up in another day or two and say, hey did you look at that material?
Sometimes, and this has happened in real life, this is actually like real life experience, oftentimes people will reach out to me proactively actually and say, hey this is great, by the way I looked at your profile. Notice that you're not a random B2B sales guy and that you actually have experience in what I'm trying to solve for.
Can we get on a call? I've actually gotten that phrase [00:06:00] a ton. Can we get on a call? And it's not like I'm asking for the call at that point. I'm proactively being told that they want to talk to me. Right? So I think that is a great way to turn outbound into inbound and to draw on engagement, value, credibility, before even asking to, , have your prospects create space for you in terms of a meeting.
Alex Allain: So I have a question about that. , that initial reach out you sent, there were two things that I was sort of surprised by in it. The first was that there wasn't really anything about the person you were sending it to, you know, sometimes I often kind of think about like the proof of work of , you know, somebody's done a little homework on me to know why I might be interested in hearing from them.
And then
the second, , Thing that also sort of stood out that I think is kind of interesting is your pattern of asking, are you interested in this rather than just kind of sending it over to them, , initially. And I think I maybe understand that one a little bit better, but I'd love to sort of like hear your thoughts on both of those areas.
Peter Ahn: Yeah, I think that, , you know, I could definitely micro optimize is [00:07:00] what I would consider that. I'd consider a micro optimization to personalize beyond doing research of your ICP and understanding. I do say that, Hey, I noticed you're an early stage company. And that you just launched, and congrats on that.
, beyond that, I don't think it's worth my time. Because, , , if I've actually dissected the pain point clearly enough, I know that people will reply to me without that personalization. And the other thing too is, , a lot of personalization today is done by AI. And so I think a lot of people actually are starting to shut their brains off to, oh, I saw you went to Stanford.
Like, who cares, actually? Like, I get a ton of those messages because I went to Stanford. Oh, I saw you worked at Dropbox. Yeah, but there's like thousands of people who worked at Dropbox and I can kind of gather you're trying to use that as an in. Unless it's truly a genuine connection and there are Instances where I will see in the cold outbound side of things, I'll see somebody connected to an investor that I've worked really closely with.
So for example, like Lan from Basis Set Ventures. [00:08:00] She sends me a lot of founders. So if I see a founder who's connected to Lan, I'm going to take the time to say, Hey, I see you're connected to Lan. I've actually worked with a lot of her portfolio companies, so I thought I'd reach out. That personalization is worth it.
But I don't think personalization at scale is worth it because you'll end up spending and wasting too much time for the juice that you're going to squeeze.
Alex Allain: So if I can just say what I'm hearing, you're really saying like, well, look, personalize if it's actually personal.
Peter Ahn: Yeah,
exactly. Yep.
Alex Allain: Don't like go out of your way to make it personal otherwise.
And like, it's probably going to sound very fake because it really won't be any more personal than chat GPT 4 can do for you.
Peter Ahn: Exactly. Now, if somebody responds to that message, then I'll start to pot commit to that relationship. ? Because they've taken the step to say, Yes, I'm interested in the piece of content you created.
And then I'll probably get more interested in looking at their website, looking at their competitors, looking at their case studies, and I'll spend more [00:09:00] time and then I might say, Hey, by the way, I noticed this case study you did, and it was really interesting. Or, I've come across this pain point myself, so it's cool that you're solving a problem around it.
To your point, it has to be personal and it has to be genuine. And at that point, I'm genuinely interested because they're interested in me.
Alex Allain: , you and they have a common interest.
Peter Ahn: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.. It takes two to tango. Yeah. And I think about that from an outbound perspective too.
I'm not just gonna. Spend a ton of time with somebody who's never going to respond or somebody who's, , just not going to become a customer or a true lead. And then the, I think the second thing you said you noticed was that I don't actually send the piece of content. It's because I'm trying to intentionally create signals.
In my sales process and in my outbound process and somebody saying, yes, I want that as a signal, whereas if you just give the materials and they read it and they get value out of it, you never know if there's a signal there because, you know, you've lost your chance to provide something, , because you've given it [00:10:00] too early.
Alex Allain: That's really interesting. , you know, the way that I had been thinking about that was like, it's a way to open a channel with them., but. The way you're describing it is even like more basic in a sense of like, Hey, this is like, just gives you a data point on whether or not this person might be interested.
I think that's really interesting.
Peter Ahn: Yeah, exactly.
Alex Allain: I don't want to, I don't want to spend too much time on this topic, but I do think it's really interesting. If I could just summarize what I'm kind of hearing you say, like most people, I think when they think about sending an introductory email, they talk about themselves and you're saying, don't talk about yourself.
Talk about them. And offer them something. Yeah.
Peter Ahn: And maybe slight correction. Talk about the problem.
Alex Allain: Talk about the, yeah. Okay. You don't even need to
Peter Ahn: talk about them, right?
Really?
Alex Allain: Yeah, I see. Talk about the, everyone's favorite thing for the, to talk about is their problems. So talk about that.
Peter Ahn: Exactly.
Alex Allain: Okay. I like that.
So, so just to, just to push on that a little bit more, why not, as part of that, also [00:11:00] include more about yourself?
Peter Ahn: , I think because, okay, so if I didn't have a LinkedIn profile that I was very active in, and I didn't have a website that I was proud of, um, and sorry, like correction there, there's a lot of work I need to do on my website.
I won't say like, it's like the gold standard for websites. So nobody judge me on that, but I do think , my LinkedIn profile, my website is a good tool for folks to get a download on my approach and my, , perspectives and my methodologies. So, I'm purposely trying to actually save that for when they do research, because I think in this day and age, people like to do their own homework, especially with all the tools out there, and Google's been around for decades now.
So, , I think that, , I'm purposely intentionally trying to make them commit to me., and go to places where I am investing a lot of time to really showcase my brand and showcase my thoughts and my expertise and credibility. And I don't think that a message can do [00:12:00] justice to showcasing my experiences.
Alex Allain: I think that's so interesting. You're basically saying, like, do the opposite of what anyone's instinct initially would be, which is like to introduce yourself in any way. Level of detail, but instead like find the thing that is most likely to trigger , some like emotional response in them.
Peter Ahn: Yes.
Alex Allain: Which is talking about the problem, offering them something, and then trust the process that's going to go on within, you know, in their head, in the background, they're going to look you up. They're going to go Google Peter Ahn. Or probably if it's on LinkedIn, they're just going to go to your profile and find your website and find all your content.
And it's all there. You've kind of created this, you know, micro brand, if you will, for, for people to kind of be able to go deeper on like, who is this person?
Peter Ahn: Yeah, I'm kind of like basically trying to showcase my enterprise brain on a digital platform. . And I want people to discover that and have a [00:13:00] relationship with that.
Even before they get on a call with me, and I told you this, like, now routinely I get on calls with folks who have listened to four or five podcast episodes. So this, podcast has been hugely valuable in building that relationship. And I, so I would rather have people listen to me async. And then reach out to me as a signal and then engage with the real me on a call where we have some common language around what I stand for and probably what their pain points are.
And so it cuts through a lot of the noise and the lowest common denominator for communicating becomes closer , between me and the founder, ?
Alex Allain: So if I'm applying this to like early stage founder sales, You know, one of the things that I'm curious about here is what does this mean for a founder who's, I mean, you're selling yourself in a way, you know, you're selling your, your time and your expertise.
, and so it's obviously going to be about you. [00:14:00] Everything has to be like kind of definitionally about you or. Your thought process, right? , if it's a founder, there's kind of a split between the founder as thought leader or influencer or whatever, you know, term you want to use. And then there's also the company and the product that they're selling.
And so how do you think about that? , You know, we've introduced a third player in this space. There's the prospect, there's the founder, and there's the company.
Peter Ahn: Yeah,
yeah. I think they're very intertwined, actually, and I think that, , the intersection of your opinions and your perspectives and the product are the closest when you're a startup.
Right. So I, this is why I tell founders to really invest in your personal brand and also elevate the personal brand of your co founders too, because it's also about the team. And so posts around, here's why my CTO and CPO got together. Here's why I decided to step in as a CEO of this company and telling that origin story has a lot [00:15:00] of.
Impact on conveying how you think and how you treat relationships. , tying your origin story to the product itself or features directly is I think very, very powerful too. So I think there's still a lot of kind of like, , I hate using the word synergies, but there's a lot of overlap. With your personal brand and your product brand.
Now, I will say the website is a lot more important than if I were to be selling myself, you know, I would say probably a lot of people heavily rely on my LinkedIn profile because I am a solopreneur, but for a company I would say definitely invest in. A lot more than I have, on your website, because having that have a very clear message and really intentionally thinking through that is also important.
Now, I've spent a lot of time on my website too, but I think the importance of it becomes way more important if you have a SaaS product.
Alex Allain: Yeah, that makes sense. Let me just articulate what I think you're saying from a playbook perspective. , so first of all, you know, you, [00:16:00] founder, your marketing team.
If you have a marketing team as an early stage founder, you probably don't, but like, you know, whoever's doing marketing, like figure out the right customer profile. Obviously build out a website that talks about the pain points has, it sounds like, you know, probably has the hosts, some of the content that you're going to offer up to people in these first contacts, but you really want to buff up, not just.
The company profile, but also your own, because people are going to see it comes from you. , they might research your company, but they're also going to research you specifically. Like that seems like kind of the, the heart of this actually.
Peter Ahn: Yeah. And enterprise companies are buying your vision as much as they're buying your product.
I talk about this a lot, which is why I also suggest having a very solid roadmap pitch as part of the sales process., which we've talked about in the past too.
Alex Allain: Oh yeah.
Peter Ahn: So, like really taking that seriously and making sure that's reflected in your digital footprint, I think is really important.
Alex Allain: Yeah, it's really interesting.
And it's kind of what you do. You, you, you have your vision for how sales should be. Yes. And that's reflected in your digital [00:17:00] footprint. And then you have your product, which is about helping people understand how to apply that vision. And You know, it, it all kind of fits together. What would you say for founders who already have a digital footprint that's like either separate from ,, their company footprint?
You know, maybe they started the company recently, but they've already had like a pretty well known, like personal brand that's like in some ways independent of the company or vice versa, you know, they've never done any online branding and maybe that's kind of not their vibe. . Those are obviously two separate problems, but they're kind of related in that neither one is this person talking about this one thing, , one because they've talked about a bunch of other stuff, one because they just haven't invested at all.
Peter Ahn: Yeah. I think, I think in both cases, you need to be intentional about the, , schedule of how you're going to put out digital content that has value around the problem that you solve. In the first case, because you're retraining your existing audience on who you are and what you stand for, right? And, and the [00:18:00] products, maybe not who you are and what you stand for, but at least the product that you're pushing out to them is probably a little bit different.
, and then in the second case, because you don't have that muscle, you need to have an aid around structure. So that you're holding yourself accountable to actually realizing that outward vision. And it's easier said than done. It's really hard, I will say, actually, because I think I told you this, the first few posts that I was trying to put out into the world, they took hours per post.
And there were moments where I was thinking, is this actually worth it? You know, like I could be spending four hours of my evening Doing actual work instead of trying to figure out how many likes I'm going to get on LinkedIn, right? And I kind of say that facetiously but obviously like that also creeps in too where you're like Oh, is anybody going to actually like this or enjoy this or find value from it?
And my number one advice is just do it and don't overthink it And enjoy the process You know, it's, it's great if it takes four hours to do your first post because you're really [00:19:00] thinking through the mechanics of it and you're learning something, hopefully. And then as you start going into month two, three, four, I would say like around month seven or eight of me posting, I really hit a groove where I started even posting things that were not planned.
And it just becomes part of your daily routine, almost like brushing your teeth, where you feel dirty if you don't actually disseminate some piece of value out into the world because you know how useful it's been to setting the groundwork for your future prospect calls. The other thing I'll say is about the likes and impressions on LinkedIn.
Algorithms always changing. I'm in a LinkedIn support group where people are like, why is LinkedIn suppressing my posts? , and you know, that has a big kind of emotional tax associated with it. I would say social media does, but the reason why I continue to do it and trudge through is because a lot of people who don't interact with my posts Are still looking at my content.
And so in a lot of cases, I'm creating content today for people who will look at my profile [00:20:00] three months from now, too. And so it is really that like library, that virtual platform, a peek into how I think and my values that I'm building for the future too.
Alex Allain: That's so interesting. You know, we talked a little bit at the start of this about like kind of the mindset shifts that are necessary.
And, , I guess like. This one's so interesting because I feel like there's a huge mindset shift behind this, that I didn't appreciate at first. The mindset at the outset is like, , let me like come up to you like we're at a cocktail party and introduce myself and we're gonna have a conversation.
And really what you're saying is like, you need to think about your entire online presence as a part of your sales funnel.
Peter Ahn: Yes, exactly. Yep. Sales doesn't work without high quality content and value that you're disseminating. And I think that's, um, it could have worked. It probably did work a while ago. By listing out the value and just listing out the pain points in text format because email [00:21:00] wasn't as noisy.
But now with the influx of AI creating all this noise, you need to really break through that noise by thinking about your. Brand and your personality and your presence holistically in the digital sense.
Alex Allain: I think that even comes through with like the way you were talking about, like reaching out on platforms rather than reaching out over email.
It's like very calculated to the current metagame of where people's attention is going and what feels, you know, saturated versus, you know, Maybe a little bit more fresh. And I guess the other thing is like the nice thing about like a platform, like LinkedIn reaching out is people immediately can start the research, for example.
Peter Ahn: Exactly. Yeah. It's very accessible to get to your content, whereas email, it's not right. Even if you like put a link in there on your website, it's just very private email to me. I like to see my inbox with folks that I know, not people who I've never met.
Alex Allain: Right, right. Yeah. That's really interesting.
It's like, , you got invited into the house.
Peter Ahn: Exactly, yeah. [00:22:00] Email is , for people who know me, probably one of the faster ways to get a response from me, but not for people who I don't know. I need to like, really do some research and click around and You know, really digest the content that people are putting out before I even, like, try and engage with them.
Alex Allain: Wow. This is super interesting. I feel like there's so much here, actually, that , we could spend A lot of time on it.
I'm just not even sure where to, you know, where to go. I'm thinking about like, from the perspective of like, I'm imagining a founder sitting there going like. Oh my God, this seems like an enormous amount of work
Peter Ahn: so that
Alex Allain: I can send a slightly shorter inbound email. , what's the 80 20 version of this?
, you were talking about it, take it six, seven months. That's a Lang time. To spend making a change before it feels comfortable. Like, , what's the minimum viable version of this where you can start to see results?
Peter Ahn: Totally. So what I'll say is like, I wish seven, eight months ago or a year ago now, when I started writing on [00:23:00] social media, I wish I had known the things I know today.
And one of the things to short circuit that. Where you can see results quickly is to create a lead magnet. Like create a digital lead magnet that is really valuable.
Alex Allain: What is a lead magnet, Peter?
Peter Ahn: So a lead magnet is something that's free for anybody for you to disseminate. It's that thing that I told you about, right?
Say, Hey, I have a deck with three common Founder-led sales mistakes. Right. And by the way, for anybody listening to this, if you want the deck, just reach out to me on LinkedIn. Maybe , like a post or two before you do that and then reach out. You're
Alex Allain: going to get listeners. You will be judged. Yeah,
Peter Ahn: exactly.
Or now there's like a text message feature, you know, for a podcast where you could text me, I guess. But actually don't do that. Cause I don't know how to reach back out to you on that. If you
Alex Allain: do that, put your email. Exactly.
Peter Ahn: Put your email. Okay. , But it's, it's a digital content piece that has a ton of value.
That's really simple. So for me, it was three common founder led sales mistakes. [00:24:00] Seems very digestible for somebody to , take a look at that and make sure they're not making those mistakes and start to distribute that. Now, creating the lead magnet itself will take some time, but what I would think about is repurpose, The things that you're saying today into that lead magnet.
For me, I was repeating these three things constantly with founders. So , it wasn't that big of a jump for me to create this lead magnet because it was already in the conversations that I was having. So think about the patterns of , one on one conversations you're having with your prospects or your customers or your team, and.
Turn that into an enterprise grade lead magnet that will create signals for people who are interested in the problem that you're solving.
Alex Allain: So let me just ask another question. , is one enough? Do you, like, let's say your LinkedIn is literally just like the places you've worked, your current startup.
Is looking for customers and like one lead magnet post. Is that enough?
Peter Ahn: I wouldn't know. I wouldn't say it's enough. I would say that's like, I'm like, if [00:25:00] we're talking about MVP, this is one component, second component is have a content calendar can be a notion. . It could be on a Google doc.
It doesn't matter. It can be on your Google calendar. , but have a calendar. Where you are getting into the habit of some sort of consistency with posting. Can start weekly, and then pretty soon you're going to do two times a week, and really map out the topics. And by the way, they can tie into the lead magnet, and you can promote the lead magnet through those posts,
and start to really gather the data around what resonates with your audience, and , what maybe you thought would resonate, but doesn't. And start to really learn about your own audience and what they gravitate towards. So I'd say those are, those are the two things. The third thing I would say, , and I would say this is a little bit extra credit, but is also super helpful for growth of your personal brand is bookmark, maybe like five to 10 people who, you know, have followers that are your target market.
[00:26:00] And as they post content, react and comment on those content pieces. So then, your followers, even if it's not your post, will see your content. And I've had many situations, especially when I chime in on AAPI topics, or on like Asians in tech. A lot of people, when they see my comment, they'll engage with the comment and then they'll reach out to me and say, Oh, I saw your comment versus, Oh, I saw your posts.
So you can also start to build momentum off of other people's footprints in a way that is genuine and authentic. There's a lot of bots, by the way, that do this automatically, but I would highly, highly suggest against it because it's very obvious , when a bot comments, but. You know, just spend 10, 15 minutes even every other day and look through the profiles where you know your target market , is following.
Alex Allain: Hmm. I love that. I love that. That actually seems really powerful as a, as a tactic. , so if I can just sum up everything I'm hearing [00:27:00] you say into sort of the, the algorithm, the algorithm here is one package up some of your knowledge, turn it into an artifact, that artifact, we'll call it a lead magnet, post that somewhere.
That's evergreen content. Start some kind of practice on social media of posting content related to your business. Often referencing the lead magnet, maybe also referencing conversations or things that are coming up. You know, whatever you're learning. And then engage, helpfully, , in the larger community.
Find the places that people are spending their time. One easy way to do it is to find Some of the other folks who are talking about the same stuff that you're talking about on LinkedIn, or I imagine Twitter, or whatever it's called now, or whatever other platform, , , , and if you do that, that naturally builds an online presence that when you then go and want to activate people, well, first of all, you're going to understand the problems really well, because you're in the space of the people who are talking about and dealing with those problems.
So you're going to be able to like really touch the scar, touch the wound with your hand, [00:28:00] and you'll have something to point people to with that lead magnet, or more, more importantly, you'll have something that you can tell people you can point them to if they're interested.
Actually, is that the same thing? Do you normally think about that as the same piece of content, or is that separate? Because they can get to the lead magnet when they look you up, right?
Peter Ahn: Yeah, I would say it can be the same thing, because I wouldn't assume that somebody will look at your lead magnet when they look you up.
You know, there's so many, especially if you have a lot of different content pieces, they might miss your lead magnet, even if you think it's somewhat prominent. , people have ADHD, you know, and like short attention spans. So, , I think you could still use a lead magnet. Promote it on your profile and still send it as, you know, a piece of value that you, , assume people won't discover.
. So I think you can use it as both actually. Now, , we're talking about founder led sales, limited resources in a perfect world, obviously you would start to vary this and like have different kind of forks in the road, different things that jump off of the lead magnet based off of the data or feedback that you get on the first lead magnet.
You know, just to get [00:29:00] started, I think I would try and repurpose as much as possible with the content.
Alex Allain: Can you just hire somebody to do all this for you?
Peter Ahn: Like, it goes by different You definitely can! Yeah, and you know what? There's a lot of AI tools out there, obviously, too, right? Where you can actually, like, one thing you can do, and something I do, , is like, download all your transcripts.
You can, like, upload it to Claude, or Chat GPT and say like, Hey, what was the like high level takeaway of this call? And like, do that and maybe hire a virtual assistant to do that across all your coaching calls. And maybe you'll see some patterns there. , and then you could say like, Hey, repurpose this into a blog post.
Obviously you still need the human guardrails to quality control and check, but you know, to at least get the idea started, there's a lot of AI tools I think that you can leverage. Hmm. So, , To answer your question, yes, you can hire somebody, and you can also use AI tools to jumpstart a lot of , what's already happening in your conversations.
Alex Allain: And is that something you kind of like, say a founder is coming to you and they're like, Peter, I listened to this amazing [00:30:00] episode. , I want to follow your playbook. Like, would you say , You know, hiring somebody on the, , five hours a week to like, kind of transcribe. I mean, obviously you're going to do oversight.
You're gonna make sure it's high quality. It's representing your brand, but like, would that be like a go to move here? Or would you say, start out doing it yourself so you like learn the practices?
Peter Ahn: Yeah, I would say start out doing it yourself and be a little bit more manual and do things that don't scale initially.
? Because I think the process itself , is really helpful and you don't want to hire somebody and then not leverage them either, right? Because, you know, maybe there's some sort of obstacle blocking you from doing this consistently. So I would gain that muscle individually first. And then I think you'll be a lot better at directing whoever you hire, , to really look at specific style, phrasing, tone.
And, it makes your like AI support system and whoever you might hire a lot more powerful because they have a lot more data points and historical context to draw off of. And I don't think there is, even with the advent of AI,, , there's [00:31:00] no substitute for your own voice.
You know, like even with the whole thing around like, Oh, like take your transcripts, upload it, like the output is still going to, feel very foreign to you. So, , the, the best way to train your own future large language model is to create your own posts across a variety of different mediums, video, blog posts, LinkedIn posts, Twitter, all that.
Alex Allain: I'm looking forward to decoding sales with, , a deepfaked, , Alex and a deepfaked Peter.
Peter Ahn: That
Alex Allain: would be fascinating.
Somebody can just plug in their favorite, , sales topic and we'll talk as Lang as they want on that topic.
Peter Ahn: That would be fascinating. I actually signed up for a beta platform. I forget what it's called, but I haven't gotten off the wait list around, like, them doing a virtual avatar that looks like you.
That you can engage with. We should definitely like pilot one of them.
Alex Allain: We should, we should definitely do this. And I think our listeners would really appreciate , the inauthentic sales brand that that would convey. [00:32:00]
Peter Ahn: It'll elevate us even more,
right?
Alex Allain: People really appreciate the live, live, , Audio, if you're not sick of hearing from bot Alex and bot Peter. , well, Peter, I think this is really fascinating. We've only covered one of the three founder led sales mistakes. ,
Peter Ahn: I think that's great because we can do an episode on the second one since folks know what it's about.
Alex Allain: . All right, Peter, this was a fascinating, this deep, much deeper dive than I had anticipated into the mistake of doing outbound wrong, which has really turned into this mindset shift of like.
Becoming an integrated salesperson across your entire online presence. So we have two more topics that we did not cover. The second was, , being efficient with your time and making sure that the prospects are the right fit for you. ,did I get that right, Peter?
Peter Ahn: That's right. Yep.
Disqualifying bad fit leads. Yeah, but same thing.
Alex Allain: Yeah. Same, same concept said different ways. I think yours is a little pithier. , that one, I feel like we're going to [00:33:00] have, it's going to be fun to talk about, although I have to say it reminds me a lot of strip lining. So folks want to like go back through our archives and find some of the posts where we talk about strip line or.
And the third one, I think this one's going to be really interesting. I'm excited to dive in, is not selling yourself short. I know you talk a little bit about like design partnerships in this, for example, you've talked about that in the past and like, I think that's a really interesting mindset shift.
So what I'm going to tell everyone here, we're, , we're bringing back, , the episodes. We're starting to produce on a regular cadence. You can have confidence. We will soon be covering additional mistakes. From founder led sales. And if you want to remember to get those episodes, like us, subscribe us on all of the like platformy things out there that like learn who you are and use that to advertise shit to you.
, And, , you know, I think we're at the point where we've produced enough content where we'd really appreciate if you're like, Hey, this is actually, we're seeing it roll again, is good, maybe give us a nice review on Apple podcasts or [00:34:00] one of those other places so that we can feel nice and happy and warm and fuzzy about the work we're doing.
So anyway, that was a little rambly, but we're signing off here from Decoding Sales. Like us, subscribe us, reach out to us at podcasts, decodingsalespodcast. com.
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[00:00:00]
Alex Allain: Welcome to decoding sales, a podcast where an engineer, that's me, Alex, and a salesperson,
Peter Ahn: that's me, Peter,
Alex Allain: talk about the art and science of sales as it relates to life and business.
In this episode, I'm really excited to talk about something that I think is going to really matter to a lot of founders who are listening to this call, specifically what they're doing wrong. A. K. A. What are the top mistakes that Peter is seeing early stage founders make in their sales process? How are they losing deals, wasting time, and leaving money on the table?
So Peter, I'm really excited for this because I feel like you have your pulse on really the heart of early stage sales. And that's why people love working with you and hearing from you. So,, just kick us off. Like, tell us a little bit about maybe like, is there a great anecdote you can share of like somebody who really hit a wall here?
And , what was the blocker and how did they overcome it? [00:01:00]
Peter Ahn: Yeah, so I'll actually, , if you don't mind, I'll just lay out all three at a high level right now. I'll just name them, and then we can dive into each one, if that works.
Alex Allain: Let's do it.
, let's give that TLDR for folks who are just diving in.
Peter Ahn: Exactly.
So, so the most common things I see is, first of all, , treating Outbound as if you're a known brand. So, , I think a lot of founders are,, over explaining their product, not investing a ton into their personal brand, and it shows in generic outbound messaging. So that's the first thing.
Second thing I see a ton of is not disqualifying bad fit leads early enough. So a lot of founders I talk to are spending way too much time on deals that are never going to close. The last thing that is a big mistake is a lot of founders, I think, end up negotiating against themselves with regards to, you Setting the price point and understanding what the true value of their product is.
There's a lot of assumptions being made around what specific companies can afford and , , not a lot of proactive work around. This is the [00:02:00] price because of XYZ reason and I'm confident in the premium nature of that price. So those are the three, , at a high level that I see, , commonly, , in, in my coaching sessions.
Things that I need to coach into, , founders as a mentality shift to get away from those founder led sales mistakes.
Alex Allain: That's great. And I like what you said about mentality. I think we'll probably come back to that. But before we do, , can you just maybe take each of those and paint a picture for what, you're like concretely talking about?
Like maybe if there's an anecdote about each of those, an example of each of those?
Peter Ahn: Yes, so I'll give a very specific anecdote. And the first one, because it's happened several times, I'll talk about it in generalities. But, , I've routinely spoken to founders where they're like, Hey, Peter, I want feedback on my first email.
And it's a completely cold email. Or let's say it's a first LinkedIn message. And oftentimes the emails read something like, I'm the founder of Peter Ahn Sales. , I [00:03:00] provide early stage coaching and these are the three benefits. You're going to become more authentic in sales.
, you're going to close larger deals and you're also going to learn, , the process of enterprise sales from start to finish. If you want to book time with me, click on my Calendly link and book a 15 minutes. Now, there's a lot of things wrong with that, but the first thing that's wrong with that is that I'm assuming that people know who I am in that message because I'm asking for a meeting on the very first interaction and I'm expecting people to look at three bullet points and to trust that I can actually solve their sales problems, but that's not the right way to outbound.
Peter Ahn: I mean, we've talked about this before, but you need to provide value. You need to , draw people into your brand before you ask for time. And so a lot of what I tell founders is don't do that in the first email. Don't explain your product features and spray and pray and hope that one of the pain points is going to align.
, make sure that you're talking about a single [00:04:00] pain point and providing value around that pain point, and then drawing people into your LinkedIn profile, into your website so that they could do some research and then Gain some trust through their own assessment of the content that you have out there and then engage with you.
So, so yeah, that, that's a very concrete example. Again, , This happens routinely, like every single week I look at these cold emails and it's the same kind of pattern. And I don't know where the founders are getting this formula. Actually, I can get a sense for where they're getting the formula, but it doesn't work for founder led sales.
It doesn't work for brands that have no brand.
Alex Allain: Can you, I love that. I thought the example you gave was fantastic. Could you outline what the good version of that email looks like? I love the way you did it just for yourself, because people, if they're listening to the podcast, they probably do know who you are.
, so maybe that even resonated a little bit, but. what's the A plus version of that email from Peter?
Peter Ahn: Yeah. If it's completely cold, I would probably, cause a lot of my clientele is on LinkedIn, , or Twitter. So I would choose one [00:05:00] of those platforms. I would reach out and say, Hey, I noticed you're an early stage founder.
Congrats on getting XYZ company off the ground. I actually recorded a 20 minute clip on three common founder led sales mistakes that I found founders need to avoid. And I'd love to send that to you. Are you interested? And so that would be the first message. Certain number of people will raise their hand and say, I actually am interested in whatever that recording is.
Then on step two, I would send the recording, I would send the deck as well, because some people won't want to look at the recording, they'll just want to peruse the deck because they don't have a lot of time, especially founders. And, , After that, if they don't reply, I'll follow up in another day or two and say, hey did you look at that material?
Sometimes, and this has happened in real life, this is actually like real life experience, oftentimes people will reach out to me proactively actually and say, hey this is great, by the way I looked at your profile. Notice that you're not a random B2B sales guy and that you actually have experience in what I'm trying to solve for.
Can we get on a call? I've actually gotten that phrase [00:06:00] a ton. Can we get on a call? And it's not like I'm asking for the call at that point. I'm proactively being told that they want to talk to me. Right? So I think that is a great way to turn outbound into inbound and to draw on engagement, value, credibility, before even asking to, , have your prospects create space for you in terms of a meeting.
Alex Allain: So I have a question about that. , that initial reach out you sent, there were two things that I was sort of surprised by in it. The first was that there wasn't really anything about the person you were sending it to, you know, sometimes I often kind of think about like the proof of work of , you know, somebody's done a little homework on me to know why I might be interested in hearing from them.
And then
the second, , Thing that also sort of stood out that I think is kind of interesting is your pattern of asking, are you interested in this rather than just kind of sending it over to them, , initially. And I think I maybe understand that one a little bit better, but I'd love to sort of like hear your thoughts on both of those areas.
Peter Ahn: Yeah, I think that, , you know, I could definitely micro optimize is [00:07:00] what I would consider that. I'd consider a micro optimization to personalize beyond doing research of your ICP and understanding. I do say that, Hey, I noticed you're an early stage company. And that you just launched, and congrats on that.
, beyond that, I don't think it's worth my time. Because, , , if I've actually dissected the pain point clearly enough, I know that people will reply to me without that personalization. And the other thing too is, , a lot of personalization today is done by AI. And so I think a lot of people actually are starting to shut their brains off to, oh, I saw you went to Stanford.
Like, who cares, actually? Like, I get a ton of those messages because I went to Stanford. Oh, I saw you worked at Dropbox. Yeah, but there's like thousands of people who worked at Dropbox and I can kind of gather you're trying to use that as an in. Unless it's truly a genuine connection and there are Instances where I will see in the cold outbound side of things, I'll see somebody connected to an investor that I've worked really closely with.
So for example, like Lan from Basis Set Ventures. [00:08:00] She sends me a lot of founders. So if I see a founder who's connected to Lan, I'm going to take the time to say, Hey, I see you're connected to Lan. I've actually worked with a lot of her portfolio companies, so I thought I'd reach out. That personalization is worth it.
But I don't think personalization at scale is worth it because you'll end up spending and wasting too much time for the juice that you're going to squeeze.
Alex Allain: So if I can just say what I'm hearing, you're really saying like, well, look, personalize if it's actually personal.
Peter Ahn: Yeah,
exactly. Yep.
Alex Allain: Don't like go out of your way to make it personal otherwise.
And like, it's probably going to sound very fake because it really won't be any more personal than chat GPT 4 can do for you.
Peter Ahn: Exactly. Now, if somebody responds to that message, then I'll start to pot commit to that relationship. ? Because they've taken the step to say, Yes, I'm interested in the piece of content you created.
And then I'll probably get more interested in looking at their website, looking at their competitors, looking at their case studies, and I'll spend more [00:09:00] time and then I might say, Hey, by the way, I noticed this case study you did, and it was really interesting. Or, I've come across this pain point myself, so it's cool that you're solving a problem around it.
To your point, it has to be personal and it has to be genuine. And at that point, I'm genuinely interested because they're interested in me.
Alex Allain: , you and they have a common interest.
Peter Ahn: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.. It takes two to tango. Yeah. And I think about that from an outbound perspective too.
I'm not just gonna. Spend a ton of time with somebody who's never going to respond or somebody who's, , just not going to become a customer or a true lead. And then the, I think the second thing you said you noticed was that I don't actually send the piece of content. It's because I'm trying to intentionally create signals.
In my sales process and in my outbound process and somebody saying, yes, I want that as a signal, whereas if you just give the materials and they read it and they get value out of it, you never know if there's a signal there because, you know, you've lost your chance to provide something, , because you've given it [00:10:00] too early.
Alex Allain: That's really interesting. , you know, the way that I had been thinking about that was like, it's a way to open a channel with them., but. The way you're describing it is even like more basic in a sense of like, Hey, this is like, just gives you a data point on whether or not this person might be interested.
I think that's really interesting.
Peter Ahn: Yeah, exactly.
Alex Allain: I don't want to, I don't want to spend too much time on this topic, but I do think it's really interesting. If I could just summarize what I'm kind of hearing you say, like most people, I think when they think about sending an introductory email, they talk about themselves and you're saying, don't talk about yourself.
Talk about them. And offer them something. Yeah.
Peter Ahn: And maybe slight correction. Talk about the problem.
Alex Allain: Talk about the, yeah. Okay. You don't even need to
Peter Ahn: talk about them, right?
Really?
Alex Allain: Yeah, I see. Talk about the, everyone's favorite thing for the, to talk about is their problems. So talk about that.
Peter Ahn: Exactly.
Alex Allain: Okay. I like that.
So, so just to, just to push on that a little bit more, why not, as part of that, also [00:11:00] include more about yourself?
Peter Ahn: , I think because, okay, so if I didn't have a LinkedIn profile that I was very active in, and I didn't have a website that I was proud of, um, and sorry, like correction there, there's a lot of work I need to do on my website.
I won't say like, it's like the gold standard for websites. So nobody judge me on that, but I do think , my LinkedIn profile, my website is a good tool for folks to get a download on my approach and my, , perspectives and my methodologies. So, I'm purposely trying to actually save that for when they do research, because I think in this day and age, people like to do their own homework, especially with all the tools out there, and Google's been around for decades now.
So, , I think that, , I'm purposely intentionally trying to make them commit to me., and go to places where I am investing a lot of time to really showcase my brand and showcase my thoughts and my expertise and credibility. And I don't think that a message can do [00:12:00] justice to showcasing my experiences.
Alex Allain: I think that's so interesting. You're basically saying, like, do the opposite of what anyone's instinct initially would be, which is like to introduce yourself in any way. Level of detail, but instead like find the thing that is most likely to trigger , some like emotional response in them.
Peter Ahn: Yes.
Alex Allain: Which is talking about the problem, offering them something, and then trust the process that's going to go on within, you know, in their head, in the background, they're going to look you up. They're going to go Google Peter Ahn. Or probably if it's on LinkedIn, they're just going to go to your profile and find your website and find all your content.
And it's all there. You've kind of created this, you know, micro brand, if you will, for, for people to kind of be able to go deeper on like, who is this person?
Peter Ahn: Yeah, I'm kind of like basically trying to showcase my enterprise brain on a digital platform. . And I want people to discover that and have a [00:13:00] relationship with that.
Even before they get on a call with me, and I told you this, like, now routinely I get on calls with folks who have listened to four or five podcast episodes. So this, podcast has been hugely valuable in building that relationship. And I, so I would rather have people listen to me async. And then reach out to me as a signal and then engage with the real me on a call where we have some common language around what I stand for and probably what their pain points are.
And so it cuts through a lot of the noise and the lowest common denominator for communicating becomes closer , between me and the founder, ?
Alex Allain: So if I'm applying this to like early stage founder sales, You know, one of the things that I'm curious about here is what does this mean for a founder who's, I mean, you're selling yourself in a way, you know, you're selling your, your time and your expertise.
, and so it's obviously going to be about you. [00:14:00] Everything has to be like kind of definitionally about you or. Your thought process, right? , if it's a founder, there's kind of a split between the founder as thought leader or influencer or whatever, you know, term you want to use. And then there's also the company and the product that they're selling.
And so how do you think about that? , You know, we've introduced a third player in this space. There's the prospect, there's the founder, and there's the company.
Peter Ahn: Yeah,
yeah. I think they're very intertwined, actually, and I think that, , the intersection of your opinions and your perspectives and the product are the closest when you're a startup.
Right. So I, this is why I tell founders to really invest in your personal brand and also elevate the personal brand of your co founders too, because it's also about the team. And so posts around, here's why my CTO and CPO got together. Here's why I decided to step in as a CEO of this company and telling that origin story has a lot [00:15:00] of.
Impact on conveying how you think and how you treat relationships. , tying your origin story to the product itself or features directly is I think very, very powerful too. So I think there's still a lot of kind of like, , I hate using the word synergies, but there's a lot of overlap. With your personal brand and your product brand.
Now, I will say the website is a lot more important than if I were to be selling myself, you know, I would say probably a lot of people heavily rely on my LinkedIn profile because I am a solopreneur, but for a company I would say definitely invest in. A lot more than I have, on your website, because having that have a very clear message and really intentionally thinking through that is also important.
Now, I've spent a lot of time on my website too, but I think the importance of it becomes way more important if you have a SaaS product.
Alex Allain: Yeah, that makes sense. Let me just articulate what I think you're saying from a playbook perspective. , so first of all, you know, you, [00:16:00] founder, your marketing team.
If you have a marketing team as an early stage founder, you probably don't, but like, you know, whoever's doing marketing, like figure out the right customer profile. Obviously build out a website that talks about the pain points has, it sounds like, you know, probably has the hosts, some of the content that you're going to offer up to people in these first contacts, but you really want to buff up, not just.
The company profile, but also your own, because people are going to see it comes from you. , they might research your company, but they're also going to research you specifically. Like that seems like kind of the, the heart of this actually.
Peter Ahn: Yeah. And enterprise companies are buying your vision as much as they're buying your product.
I talk about this a lot, which is why I also suggest having a very solid roadmap pitch as part of the sales process., which we've talked about in the past too.
Alex Allain: Oh yeah.
Peter Ahn: So, like really taking that seriously and making sure that's reflected in your digital footprint, I think is really important.
Alex Allain: Yeah, it's really interesting.
And it's kind of what you do. You, you, you have your vision for how sales should be. Yes. And that's reflected in your digital [00:17:00] footprint. And then you have your product, which is about helping people understand how to apply that vision. And You know, it, it all kind of fits together. What would you say for founders who already have a digital footprint that's like either separate from ,, their company footprint?
You know, maybe they started the company recently, but they've already had like a pretty well known, like personal brand that's like in some ways independent of the company or vice versa, you know, they've never done any online branding and maybe that's kind of not their vibe. . Those are obviously two separate problems, but they're kind of related in that neither one is this person talking about this one thing, , one because they've talked about a bunch of other stuff, one because they just haven't invested at all.
Peter Ahn: Yeah. I think, I think in both cases, you need to be intentional about the, , schedule of how you're going to put out digital content that has value around the problem that you solve. In the first case, because you're retraining your existing audience on who you are and what you stand for, right? And, and the [00:18:00] products, maybe not who you are and what you stand for, but at least the product that you're pushing out to them is probably a little bit different.
, and then in the second case, because you don't have that muscle, you need to have an aid around structure. So that you're holding yourself accountable to actually realizing that outward vision. And it's easier said than done. It's really hard, I will say, actually, because I think I told you this, the first few posts that I was trying to put out into the world, they took hours per post.
And there were moments where I was thinking, is this actually worth it? You know, like I could be spending four hours of my evening Doing actual work instead of trying to figure out how many likes I'm going to get on LinkedIn, right? And I kind of say that facetiously but obviously like that also creeps in too where you're like Oh, is anybody going to actually like this or enjoy this or find value from it?
And my number one advice is just do it and don't overthink it And enjoy the process You know, it's, it's great if it takes four hours to do your first post because you're really [00:19:00] thinking through the mechanics of it and you're learning something, hopefully. And then as you start going into month two, three, four, I would say like around month seven or eight of me posting, I really hit a groove where I started even posting things that were not planned.
And it just becomes part of your daily routine, almost like brushing your teeth, where you feel dirty if you don't actually disseminate some piece of value out into the world because you know how useful it's been to setting the groundwork for your future prospect calls. The other thing I'll say is about the likes and impressions on LinkedIn.
Algorithms always changing. I'm in a LinkedIn support group where people are like, why is LinkedIn suppressing my posts? , and you know, that has a big kind of emotional tax associated with it. I would say social media does, but the reason why I continue to do it and trudge through is because a lot of people who don't interact with my posts Are still looking at my content.
And so in a lot of cases, I'm creating content today for people who will look at my profile [00:20:00] three months from now, too. And so it is really that like library, that virtual platform, a peek into how I think and my values that I'm building for the future too.
Alex Allain: That's so interesting. You know, we talked a little bit at the start of this about like kind of the mindset shifts that are necessary.
And, , I guess like. This one's so interesting because I feel like there's a huge mindset shift behind this, that I didn't appreciate at first. The mindset at the outset is like, , let me like come up to you like we're at a cocktail party and introduce myself and we're gonna have a conversation.
And really what you're saying is like, you need to think about your entire online presence as a part of your sales funnel.
Peter Ahn: Yes, exactly. Yep. Sales doesn't work without high quality content and value that you're disseminating. And I think that's, um, it could have worked. It probably did work a while ago. By listing out the value and just listing out the pain points in text format because email [00:21:00] wasn't as noisy.
But now with the influx of AI creating all this noise, you need to really break through that noise by thinking about your. Brand and your personality and your presence holistically in the digital sense.
Alex Allain: I think that even comes through with like the way you were talking about, like reaching out on platforms rather than reaching out over email.
It's like very calculated to the current metagame of where people's attention is going and what feels, you know, saturated versus, you know, Maybe a little bit more fresh. And I guess the other thing is like the nice thing about like a platform, like LinkedIn reaching out is people immediately can start the research, for example.
Peter Ahn: Exactly. Yeah. It's very accessible to get to your content, whereas email, it's not right. Even if you like put a link in there on your website, it's just very private email to me. I like to see my inbox with folks that I know, not people who I've never met.
Alex Allain: Right, right. Yeah. That's really interesting.
It's like, , you got invited into the house.
Peter Ahn: Exactly, yeah. [00:22:00] Email is , for people who know me, probably one of the faster ways to get a response from me, but not for people who I don't know. I need to like, really do some research and click around and You know, really digest the content that people are putting out before I even, like, try and engage with them.
Alex Allain: Wow. This is super interesting. I feel like there's so much here, actually, that , we could spend A lot of time on it.
I'm just not even sure where to, you know, where to go. I'm thinking about like, from the perspective of like, I'm imagining a founder sitting there going like. Oh my God, this seems like an enormous amount of work
Peter Ahn: so that
Alex Allain: I can send a slightly shorter inbound email. , what's the 80 20 version of this?
, you were talking about it, take it six, seven months. That's a Lang time. To spend making a change before it feels comfortable. Like, , what's the minimum viable version of this where you can start to see results?
Peter Ahn: Totally. So what I'll say is like, I wish seven, eight months ago or a year ago now, when I started writing on [00:23:00] social media, I wish I had known the things I know today.
And one of the things to short circuit that. Where you can see results quickly is to create a lead magnet. Like create a digital lead magnet that is really valuable.
Alex Allain: What is a lead magnet, Peter?
Peter Ahn: So a lead magnet is something that's free for anybody for you to disseminate. It's that thing that I told you about, right?
Say, Hey, I have a deck with three common Founder-led sales mistakes. Right. And by the way, for anybody listening to this, if you want the deck, just reach out to me on LinkedIn. Maybe , like a post or two before you do that and then reach out. You're
Alex Allain: going to get listeners. You will be judged. Yeah,
Peter Ahn: exactly.
Or now there's like a text message feature, you know, for a podcast where you could text me, I guess. But actually don't do that. Cause I don't know how to reach back out to you on that. If you
Alex Allain: do that, put your email. Exactly.
Peter Ahn: Put your email. Okay. , But it's, it's a digital content piece that has a ton of value.
That's really simple. So for me, it was three common founder led sales mistakes. [00:24:00] Seems very digestible for somebody to , take a look at that and make sure they're not making those mistakes and start to distribute that. Now, creating the lead magnet itself will take some time, but what I would think about is repurpose, The things that you're saying today into that lead magnet.
For me, I was repeating these three things constantly with founders. So , it wasn't that big of a jump for me to create this lead magnet because it was already in the conversations that I was having. So think about the patterns of , one on one conversations you're having with your prospects or your customers or your team, and.
Turn that into an enterprise grade lead magnet that will create signals for people who are interested in the problem that you're solving.
Alex Allain: So let me just ask another question. , is one enough? Do you, like, let's say your LinkedIn is literally just like the places you've worked, your current startup.
Is looking for customers and like one lead magnet post. Is that enough?
Peter Ahn: I wouldn't know. I wouldn't say it's enough. I would say that's like, I'm like, if [00:25:00] we're talking about MVP, this is one component, second component is have a content calendar can be a notion. . It could be on a Google doc.
It doesn't matter. It can be on your Google calendar. , but have a calendar. Where you are getting into the habit of some sort of consistency with posting. Can start weekly, and then pretty soon you're going to do two times a week, and really map out the topics. And by the way, they can tie into the lead magnet, and you can promote the lead magnet through those posts,
and start to really gather the data around what resonates with your audience, and , what maybe you thought would resonate, but doesn't. And start to really learn about your own audience and what they gravitate towards. So I'd say those are, those are the two things. The third thing I would say, , and I would say this is a little bit extra credit, but is also super helpful for growth of your personal brand is bookmark, maybe like five to 10 people who, you know, have followers that are your target market.
[00:26:00] And as they post content, react and comment on those content pieces. So then, your followers, even if it's not your post, will see your content. And I've had many situations, especially when I chime in on AAPI topics, or on like Asians in tech. A lot of people, when they see my comment, they'll engage with the comment and then they'll reach out to me and say, Oh, I saw your comment versus, Oh, I saw your posts.
So you can also start to build momentum off of other people's footprints in a way that is genuine and authentic. There's a lot of bots, by the way, that do this automatically, but I would highly, highly suggest against it because it's very obvious , when a bot comments, but. You know, just spend 10, 15 minutes even every other day and look through the profiles where you know your target market , is following.
Alex Allain: Hmm. I love that. I love that. That actually seems really powerful as a, as a tactic. , so if I can just sum up everything I'm hearing [00:27:00] you say into sort of the, the algorithm, the algorithm here is one package up some of your knowledge, turn it into an artifact, that artifact, we'll call it a lead magnet, post that somewhere.
That's evergreen content. Start some kind of practice on social media of posting content related to your business. Often referencing the lead magnet, maybe also referencing conversations or things that are coming up. You know, whatever you're learning. And then engage, helpfully, , in the larger community.
Find the places that people are spending their time. One easy way to do it is to find Some of the other folks who are talking about the same stuff that you're talking about on LinkedIn, or I imagine Twitter, or whatever it's called now, or whatever other platform, , , , and if you do that, that naturally builds an online presence that when you then go and want to activate people, well, first of all, you're going to understand the problems really well, because you're in the space of the people who are talking about and dealing with those problems.
So you're going to be able to like really touch the scar, touch the wound with your hand, [00:28:00] and you'll have something to point people to with that lead magnet, or more, more importantly, you'll have something that you can tell people you can point them to if they're interested.
Actually, is that the same thing? Do you normally think about that as the same piece of content, or is that separate? Because they can get to the lead magnet when they look you up, right?
Peter Ahn: Yeah, I would say it can be the same thing, because I wouldn't assume that somebody will look at your lead magnet when they look you up.
You know, there's so many, especially if you have a lot of different content pieces, they might miss your lead magnet, even if you think it's somewhat prominent. , people have ADHD, you know, and like short attention spans. So, , I think you could still use a lead magnet. Promote it on your profile and still send it as, you know, a piece of value that you, , assume people won't discover.
. So I think you can use it as both actually. Now, , we're talking about founder led sales, limited resources in a perfect world, obviously you would start to vary this and like have different kind of forks in the road, different things that jump off of the lead magnet based off of the data or feedback that you get on the first lead magnet.
You know, just to get [00:29:00] started, I think I would try and repurpose as much as possible with the content.
Alex Allain: Can you just hire somebody to do all this for you?
Peter Ahn: Like, it goes by different You definitely can! Yeah, and you know what? There's a lot of AI tools out there, obviously, too, right? Where you can actually, like, one thing you can do, and something I do, , is like, download all your transcripts.
You can, like, upload it to Claude, or Chat GPT and say like, Hey, what was the like high level takeaway of this call? And like, do that and maybe hire a virtual assistant to do that across all your coaching calls. And maybe you'll see some patterns there. , and then you could say like, Hey, repurpose this into a blog post.
Obviously you still need the human guardrails to quality control and check, but you know, to at least get the idea started, there's a lot of AI tools I think that you can leverage. Hmm. So, , To answer your question, yes, you can hire somebody, and you can also use AI tools to jumpstart a lot of , what's already happening in your conversations.
Alex Allain: And is that something you kind of like, say a founder is coming to you and they're like, Peter, I listened to this amazing [00:30:00] episode. , I want to follow your playbook. Like, would you say , You know, hiring somebody on the, , five hours a week to like, kind of transcribe. I mean, obviously you're going to do oversight.
You're gonna make sure it's high quality. It's representing your brand, but like, would that be like a go to move here? Or would you say, start out doing it yourself so you like learn the practices?
Peter Ahn: Yeah, I would say start out doing it yourself and be a little bit more manual and do things that don't scale initially.
? Because I think the process itself , is really helpful and you don't want to hire somebody and then not leverage them either, right? Because, you know, maybe there's some sort of obstacle blocking you from doing this consistently. So I would gain that muscle individually first. And then I think you'll be a lot better at directing whoever you hire, , to really look at specific style, phrasing, tone.
And, it makes your like AI support system and whoever you might hire a lot more powerful because they have a lot more data points and historical context to draw off of. And I don't think there is, even with the advent of AI,, , there's [00:31:00] no substitute for your own voice.
You know, like even with the whole thing around like, Oh, like take your transcripts, upload it, like the output is still going to, feel very foreign to you. So, , the, the best way to train your own future large language model is to create your own posts across a variety of different mediums, video, blog posts, LinkedIn posts, Twitter, all that.
Alex Allain: I'm looking forward to decoding sales with, , a deepfaked, , Alex and a deepfaked Peter.
Peter Ahn: That
Alex Allain: would be fascinating.
Somebody can just plug in their favorite, , sales topic and we'll talk as Lang as they want on that topic.
Peter Ahn: That would be fascinating. I actually signed up for a beta platform. I forget what it's called, but I haven't gotten off the wait list around, like, them doing a virtual avatar that looks like you.
That you can engage with. We should definitely like pilot one of them.
Alex Allain: We should, we should definitely do this. And I think our listeners would really appreciate , the inauthentic sales brand that that would convey. [00:32:00]
Peter Ahn: It'll elevate us even more,
right?
Alex Allain: People really appreciate the live, live, , Audio, if you're not sick of hearing from bot Alex and bot Peter. , well, Peter, I think this is really fascinating. We've only covered one of the three founder led sales mistakes. ,
Peter Ahn: I think that's great because we can do an episode on the second one since folks know what it's about.
Alex Allain: . All right, Peter, this was a fascinating, this deep, much deeper dive than I had anticipated into the mistake of doing outbound wrong, which has really turned into this mindset shift of like.
Becoming an integrated salesperson across your entire online presence. So we have two more topics that we did not cover. The second was, , being efficient with your time and making sure that the prospects are the right fit for you. ,did I get that right, Peter?
Peter Ahn: That's right. Yep.
Disqualifying bad fit leads. Yeah, but same thing.
Alex Allain: Yeah. Same, same concept said different ways. I think yours is a little pithier. , that one, I feel like we're going to [00:33:00] have, it's going to be fun to talk about, although I have to say it reminds me a lot of strip lining. So folks want to like go back through our archives and find some of the posts where we talk about strip line or.
And the third one, I think this one's going to be really interesting. I'm excited to dive in, is not selling yourself short. I know you talk a little bit about like design partnerships in this, for example, you've talked about that in the past and like, I think that's a really interesting mindset shift.
So what I'm going to tell everyone here, we're, , we're bringing back, , the episodes. We're starting to produce on a regular cadence. You can have confidence. We will soon be covering additional mistakes. From founder led sales. And if you want to remember to get those episodes, like us, subscribe us on all of the like platformy things out there that like learn who you are and use that to advertise shit to you.
, And, , you know, I think we're at the point where we've produced enough content where we'd really appreciate if you're like, Hey, this is actually, we're seeing it roll again, is good, maybe give us a nice review on Apple podcasts or [00:34:00] one of those other places so that we can feel nice and happy and warm and fuzzy about the work we're doing.
So anyway, that was a little rambly, but we're signing off here from Decoding Sales. Like us, subscribe us, reach out to us at podcasts, decodingsalespodcast. com.
