Steve Chapman: Thank for having me. I mean, that might take up the entire time we've got. So I'll try and be succinct. But I guess the least inconvenient label is I'm an artist, I'm a writer, I'm a speaker, I'm a podcaster myself. make stuff and I write stuff and I work with others and I like following fascinating chains of thought and that may result in a project or it might result in a piece of art or might result in a piece of writing. I mean that's probably helps people know me less than they did before I said that but that's my best stab at describing what I do.
Heather Ebanks: cool. We're definitely going to be talking more about what you actually do and it's quite a wide collective selection of all your... yeah. This is question I love to ask my guests when they're on the podcast is when you hear the words bold voices, messy journeys, zero apologies, which part of your journey does that resonate with?
Steve Chapman: Yeah, yeah, that's good way of saying it. I think messy, just the word messy. ⁓ Not having a plan or maybe having a plan but not really knowing what it is. And the messiness is what makes life exciting I think and it can make it traumatic and hard as well but yeah I'd rather have ⁓ a messy journey than any of other things.
Heather Ebanks: Hmm. Yeah. Some people answer all of those. This is a combination of, you know, some people have a quiet voice, they want to be more bold. So it's interesting. ⁓ I think you described yourself as ⁓ a weird child. When did you first learn that you were weird and was it valuable?
Steve Chapman: Geez, that's brilliant question. ⁓ Not as a child, I didn't know that at all. No, and probably over the last 20 years ⁓ is when I realized it. And particularly more recently, looking back and writing and recording a podcast and reminiscing about childhood, thinking...
Heather Ebanks: I'm joined by Steve Chapman, artist, illustrator, writer, speaker, podcaster, accidental industry outsider, and a deeply curious human who has absolutely no interest in fitting neatly into the creative world as it currently exists.
Steve Chapman: there were strange things that I used to do but of course I was just me at the time I didn't know anything else ⁓ like writing this weird music and performing it in assembly and then remembering what that music was the music's in inverted commas and thinking that's a strange thing to do so I guess It's sort like my life's been like a sandwich. I was naturally like that as a kid. And then secondary school didn't really appreciate or embrace that. So I started rounding myself off and trying to fit in, which it didn't succeed. I didn't fit in, but I just also lost myself in it. And then into the world of work and then the middle of the sandwich is just, I guess, trying to fit in and be normal, but really at some level knowing that that's not me.
Heather Ebanks: Steve's work lives in the messy, wonderful in between, between anxiety and whimsy, childhood and adulthood, masking and masking, silence and expression. He doesn't navigate the creative industry so much as wander into it, do something quietly, radical and then disappear again. In this conversation, we talk about reconnecting with your eight year old self, why start before you're ready might be the most generous creative rule you can adopt, how capitalist norms flatten true creativity, why following fascination, not strategy, can lead to the most meaningful work of your life. We explore vulnerability, neurodivergence operating in the edges,
Steve Chapman: And then the final bit of the sandwich, I mean now, mean, maybe it's a multi-layered sandwich. Maybe I'll go back into that bit. But he's just thinking, ⁓ no, I want to reaccess that strange eight-year-old. He was much less professional and productive in that sort of capitalist normal sense of the word, but he was much more fun. was much more interesting.
Heather Ebanks: I'm just thinking, ⁓ you know, as we're children, we're kind of fearless and we have no filters to some degree. And do you think like these eight year olds or younger Steve was ⁓ maybe more, you know, freer? And what is the Steve like today, you think, regards to the comparisons? and what it means to give yourself and unbridled permission to be strange, soft, curious and fully yourself.
Steve Chapman: Well, I think he was definitely freer because the concept of not free hadn't really entered his mind or my mind then, I don't think. Because if I think now and there's some areas of my life I really don't care what other people think. So with my art, I don't care if anyone likes it or I genuinely don't. And I make it just for me. But with stuff like I write music and I occasionally perform music at an open mic and I care too much about what other people think and I always hate the experience and I hate the idea of it, I hate doing it and then afterwards I'll never do that again. But for eight-year-old Steve to create this nonsensical piece of music and then recruit someone else to play it with him as a duet and then perform that in assembly in front of the school, I guess that must have been, it must have been free. But I cannot remember, and it's strange, isn't it, memory? Because memory isn't like a videotape. It's we recreate the memory in that moment as we access it. So it's going to be completely distorted. It's so long ago. But I don't remember it even coming into my mind. What if people think this is shit? What if people think you're weird? So there would have been a lot more freedom then. And I think maybe I'm a... I'm a work in progress mix of eight year old me and the middle bit of that sandwich, like the sensible me that learns how the world works. maybe a bit more of a happy balance now because eight year old me probably wouldn't survive in the world just being like that. So I've learned some sensibilities but it's that whole thing of like you need to know the rules in order to break the rules. Play the game in order to make the game work for you. So it's maybe a happy mix now but it's always a work in progress. I sort of hope I never get there wherever there is.
Heather Ebanks: Yeah, I don't know about you, when I was similar age, when I was a kid, I was into art and being creative, etc. And I remember this ⁓ part of my life, I wanted to be more creative and I tried to take more risks. But I just remembered the fear mostly of like, was just a little thing. Like I was being in a play and I forgot to remove makeup off my face. And people were just laughing. I couldn't understand why I feel like as creatives, as adults, we feel that we've drifted away from ourselves a bit. ⁓ How do you begin to reconnect that child, that innocence and creative spark that we used to have, you think?
Steve Chapman: Yeah. I don't know if it's a short and unhelpful answer, but I think it's something like the more we seek it, the less we find it. It's more of a being open to it emerging. ⁓ maybe like there's i don't understand quantum physics at all but there's a particle in quantum physics isn't there that doesn't exist when it's observed i like that it scrambles my brain so maybe it's a bit like that if we go seeking that freedom that we had as a child it's not going to happen but it's i find now discovering myself in moments of immersion and flow that i only really know i've been in when i come out of them is the way to do it. And art's been that for me before and the podcast and the writing is that for me now. But that there's a there's a concept that I've spoken about in the podcast before called quantum flirting, which comes from a guy called Arnie Mindell. And I love it just the words quantum flirting. As soon as you say quantum flirting to someone, they write it down, even though they don't know what I'm going to say. It might be a brand of washing powder for all they know. That's a good brand of washing powder actually. I would buy a washing powder called quantum flirting even if it didn't wash clothes But quantum flirting the idea that Arnie Mindell speaks about is we go around Our human experience like seeking stuff and thinking we choose to place our attention Whereas quantum flirting for me is the opposite is being open to hearing the quiet whispers of stuff calling for our attention And I think that creativity works in that way as well, or at least for me. If I go seeking an idea, I'm not going to find it. I'm going to find something that's just a synthetic substitute for an idea. Or as if I practice in being open and curious and letting things like dance in the peripheral edges of my awareness, then they're always exciting. And I think as a child, I don't think I would have sought anything in particular. I just do it because I couldn't not do it and I think that fascination the idea of being fascinated has become so important to me because if I'm fascinated I am immersed and I will do stuff and a lot of the projects I've done have been big and strange and people say that must be fearless or brave but it's not it's just I'm so fascinated I can't do it.
Heather Ebanks: Yeah, think, you know, touched on something in regards to like, I think you do talk about it about being the human side of creativity. I think your work, you said explores creativity not as a skill, skill set, but as a way of being human. So what does creativity reveal about what it means to be human, do you think?
Steve Chapman: I mean, it's, I'm always fascinated by the definition we have for creativity. I spoke, I was invited to speak at Cannes Lions in 2017, I think. And I went, it was like in the briefing for it. And I know nothing about the creative industry at all. I've worked in it, I like drop in and do a talk or a workshop and then drop out again. So I know I have no expertise in it. And I genuinely found it bizarre when I was in Cannes, people introduced themselves to me saying, oh, I'm a creative or I'm not a creative. And so what are you talking about? I don't understand. And then they said for me, I mean, it's an entire long week long festival of creativity. And I mean, it's huge. And they said to me, right, the last day when I was doing my talk, that that bit's about the human side of creativity. And I said to them, what the hell are you doing the rest of week then? What's all that about? Because for me, it's, guess that type of creativity, I'm not knocking it, I just don't understand it, is that's about commoditizing something. It's a different, maybe it's a big C creativity, like capital C creativity. But as human beings, we need to be creative in order to cross the road every time. For me, it's our ability to... respond to a moment in a particular way that meets our needs or serves our needs. it's for me creativity is getting closer to a freedom of spontaneous self-expression. And I love that freedom of spontaneous self-expression because that makes it neutral. It doesn't mean it's about making art or about doing a dance. your creative free self-expression could be that you have a pen in your hand and you draw something. Or it could be that you have a spreadsheet or you're caring for a child or something. So for me, it's... Maybe that big C creativity that confuses me is a manifestation of the other thing, but I think at the heart of it, that's what it is. It's just a natural human thing. And I guess maybe every sentient creature has it, but we have the curse of an observer brain, so we obsess about it too much, whereas everything else just does it naturally.
Heather Ebanks: Yeah, and we kind of almost self-sabotage ourselves sometimes with always feeling uncomfortable, living on the edge of things and not being comfortable with being uncomfortable, if you know what mean. and yeah. And yeah.
Steve Chapman: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. it's, think, fear of rejection, fear of... I damage self-worth and things like that. They, mean, they inhibit me all the time, but I think that's what, that's what lies at the heart of it. There's a, there's a philosopher called Eric Fromm, who wrote a book called Escape from Freedom that he may have come across. And Fromm's whole hypothesis was that if human beings really experience the freedom that we so desire, it would utterly overwhelm us. Because we'd have to completely accept that we are insignificant and impermanent beings floating around in a disinterested universe. So he was saying that everything we do is an escape from freedom. Like we'll do these things so we don't experience that and I love that as a hypothesis. But he talks about intrinsic and extrinsic freedom. He calls it something else that confused me. So I've changed it to intrinsic and extrinsic freedom. And that's what is the freedom that the world out there appears to give me. And that could be that I'm in a job that I feel gives me or restricts my freedom or a relationship. But what's the really interesting thing is where's that internal restriction of freedom? And a lot of that comes from really old stuff around self-worth, around identity, around who we are, around the rules that I swallowed as being true about me and who I should be because of who I am. And so that, yeah, I think that both factors are important, but we often obsess with the external factors and that they're really important as well. And depending on who you are, where you live, in your circumstances, they're going to be more or less oppressive. But that important work, that inner works as important, if not more important.
Heather Ebanks: Yeah, and I like the way you described, you celebrate, was it the wonkiness, the awkward, messy parts of being a human being creative? What do you think most people, why people try too hard to hide their process? What do think that is? Do you think apart from being, you know, scared and fearful, do you think there's other reasons why people do it?
Steve Chapman: Yeah. I mean, maybe it's a norm. I did a thing at Amsterdam Fashion Academy, I think it was last January, January 2025. And it was a lovely event. was groups of the, and I know nothing about the fashion world, clearly. And it was like groups of fashion students in their final year, and they invited people from the fashion industry and me for some reason. And we just sat down at tables and had different conversations with them and rotated around. And it was lovely event. And they were, I guess, early mid-20s. And every table, every conversation, I got asked the same question, roughly, which was, so when does the fear go? When does that fear about getting it wrong or that anxiety, where does the anxiety go? And I said, ⁓ I don't think it does. I still experience it, and I was a lot older than them. and they were really surprised by that and also found it they they were sort of disappointed but i think they found it really helpful as well and it's like ⁓ right so maybe part of it is thinking that there is a completeness or there is an absence that that comes and by expressing that vulnerability or that anxiety or that fear i'm maybe part of it is thinking that there is a completeness there an absence that that comes ⁓ and by expressing that vulnerability or that anxiety or that fear ⁓ i'm ⁓ I'm going to be less or my self-worth is going to be less in that way. it's now become so much that if I didn't allow the imperfections and wonkiness in my art, it wouldn't be my art anymore. I'm going to be less or my self-worth is going to be less in that way. Whereas I think I like leaving. mean, it's now become so much that if I didn't allow the imperfections and wonkiness in my art, it wouldn't be my art anymore. And it sort of defines it. guess what might be wonky or an error or not make sense to me, someone else might make sense of it. So it's sort of part, I mean, there's a load we can go into here around. be wonky or an error or not make sense to me, someone else might make sense of it. what it means, like the norms of what it means to be a successful human being, know, at least in a, don't know other societies well at all, but to be a successful human being in a Western capitalist society, it's not really geared towards wonkiness and eros about straight lines and linear progression and things like that. So there's probably a load of a load of social and psychological and philosophical factors that play there. I mean, I always come back to, well, we don't know where we came from when we don't know where we're going. So why should the bit in the middle make sense? Why should the bit in the middle be nice and neat and ordered? This is probably the most normal bit of our experience. So yeah, but I sort of take an existential philosophical lens to everything that doesn't make sense to everyone, but it soothes me.
Heather Ebanks: enjoyed that ⁓ kind of wonkiness of your style I think I did mention that ⁓ very similar to ⁓ one of artists that you do love, ⁓ Jim aka Vic Reeves and Bob fame ⁓ I see similarities and ⁓
Steve Chapman: Yeah.
Heather Ebanks: I think you met him, didn't you, on one of your podcasts.
Steve Chapman: Yeah, I did. I did a project in 2018 which was called Sound of Silence, which was the world's first silent podcast featuring special guests. And that's a good example actually of a curious question that I've become fascinated by so much so that I don't care what anyone else thinks. it was, that came about because it was at a time when... there was just a plethora of podcasts that I was coming across that didn't seem to have much to say. And were people doing a podcast just for the sake of doing a podcast? That's what everyone was doing. And I just thought, ⁓ I wonder what the opposite of a podcast would be. ⁓ it would be nothing. It would be silence. And what if I broadcast silence every week? And what would make it weirder is what if I had a special guest that had on every week and we record it face to face? And what would make it even more extreme is having maybe some big names and celebrities on it. And so that's what I did. Every week for two and half years, a hundred episodes, put out recorded silence. and invited loads of people like people I admired, people I'd always wanted to meet, and Jim was one of them. And he was the first sort of celebrity, I guess, that said yes to it. And it was such a weird day. I went to his house in Kent and I remember walking up the drive to knock on his door and thinking, I'm knocking on Vic Reeves' door to record silence with him. And this is someone that I grew up watching on telly and... But again, that's it. If you follow your fascination, you're going to have all sorts of adventures.
Heather Ebanks: It's just strange to think that we would depend on the silence, but then the space and quietness speaks volume sometimes. And you're waiting for the anticipation. Like I've listened to a few episodes and I was like, this must be either really, really awkward for the recording or really, really fascinating. And I was wondering what are they?
Steve Chapman: Yeah. Yeah.
Heather Ebanks: doing? Are they looking at each other? Are they ignoring each other? What are they doing physically? And it's interesting. ⁓ What you do in that short, was it three minutes approximately for each episode?
Steve Chapman: Yeah, was two minutes of silence. I do a quick introduction. Then we have two minutes of silence and then thank you at the end. I never literally was what happens if I put out a silent podcast. And what's great about not having KPIs or objectives is it you can learn so much more wherever it goes. And that was one of the fascinating things around what the silence did to the listeners, because it created a space that they could pour their imagination or their needs into it. And people would say, I love this podcast, it's about anxiety, or I love this podcast, it's about mental health, or I love this podcast, it's about seagulls, because there's seagulls in the background or something. And I'd say, yeah, that's what it's about. And it's like, OK, this is interesting. It's a downloadable empty container or an audible empty container. And people will go in different directions with it. And then for me, the experience of every guest was completely different. And I mean, I soon realized that literal silence, an absence of vibration or noise, was impossible to find anywhere. The only place I found it was in an underground medieval prison cell. And that was interesting in itself because we recorded there and it's like, I have to go to a place of oppression and torture to find silence in a modern world. But it was different for different people. Sometimes we sort of just looked at each other awkwardly and sometimes we'd just sit with our heads down and... ⁓ I remember I recorded with Terry Waite, former Beirut hostage. And that was fascinating because we spent the entire day together talking about philosophy and war and peace and religion and captivity, then recorded nothing, then carried on with the amazing conversation. But that was, I just remember recording with Terry and he shut his eyes. So I shut my eyes and then I opened my eyes just before the end because I needed to see how much longer we had left on my timer. I just thought, I wonder where he's gone. I wonder where he's gone in this moment. And then I wonder where the listeners will go in that moment as well. And what's bizarre is... some of the episodes are way more popular than others and it's like why is Eddie Izzard's silence more popular than the little old lady down the road I recorded with? Again it's just fascinating that even in silence the fact that it's someone that's known makes it more listenable and what i love is the whole thing i could have made up the whole thing i could have just i could have just sat in my studio pretending and then photoshopping photos of people so the whole thing could be a massive ruse i mean i wish it was it cost me so much money like traveling around doing it but again it was just a fascinating project that started with a curious question and then it's same with all of the projects it's like there were points when I hated it absolutely hated it it's like ⁓ but because I designed an end point endings are really important to me because I designed an end point right at the start I wanted to get to that end point
Heather Ebanks: ⁓ So why did you hate it? Those moments to think.
Steve Chapman: Oh, there were moments when it's like I'd get one guest for every 20 that I invited or it would be I've got to travel for five hours to record two minutes of silence with someone and just, I don't know, like sometimes I think, oh, this is an episode that, and this is another really important thing that this is an episode that everyone's going to love and then not many people listen to it. which is a trap with anything. It's the same with art. If I make art to be popular, then it's not going to work. And I think it was just maybe, and I think I've let go of this now, is as an artist and a creative thinking, always waiting for that thing that's going to be the big break and then realizing that that doesn't happen. ⁓ It occasionally happens for a tiny, tiny amount of people. but mainly time and money and then just getting towards the end and thinking what am I doing here? I need to be earning money. And I had the same thing with What the February which was the challenge that I did on Instagram every year. So every day in February I'd post a creative challenge and I'd illustrate the art. It just it took so long it took two months of prep and then every day in February was taken over by it. And by the third year, then thousands of people around the world were taking part in it. So that became really popular. But by the third year, it's just like, ⁓ I can't be bothered. I really can't be bothered. This is too much work. And so the next year I killed it. So it's that type of thing. guess it's when my fascination in something starts to wane, that's when I start to fall out of love with it. So that's why intentionally designing good endings is really important.
Heather Ebanks: Hmm. Things nicely goes on to the next question, I think, regards to, I think you said earlier on that you don't really navigate the creative industry, you kind of drop in and then drop out. And then you, is that intentional, do you think?
Steve Chapman: Maybe at some level, I mean, the obvious logical thing is that it's just circumstances. I've never been part of that industry. But. I think that I've never really felt part of anything fully or felt like I've fitted into anything fully. I even in the art world, I go to art things. It's like, oh, this isn't me. But I think later in life, I've started to embrace that. I oh, no, that's OK, mate. That's my sweet spot. That's my niche, that existing on the edges of something. So it probably, I could. The surface answer is no, it's just logistical. I never trained in any of that industry. But probably there is something about that. I think becoming too much part of something, maybe experienced losing some of the freedom, particularly the freedom to do strange stuff or the freedom to fuck up. So yeah, I've never really been part of that.
Heather Ebanks: What is the thinking of staying on the edges of creativity and do you think it's creative? Do we think we are protecting our creativity or do you think does it do more harm not getting involved in industry in some way?
Steve Chapman: you mean for creatives getting involved in the creative industry? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's I think the whole thing comes back to
Heather Ebanks: Yeah.
Steve Chapman: is whatever I'm doing, whether that's paid work, unpaid work, is that allowing me to follow my fascination? So I think a creative job and an artist job is just to be fascinated, genuinely deeply fascinated in whatever you're fascinated by and finding ways to do that. And if someone pays you to do that, then brilliant. I mean, the advantage that I have of there's so many industries that I've worked in and showed up and done stuff is because I'm not an expert in them, I bump into all of the unconsciousness question norms and rules and language. I would say I haven't got a clue what you're talking about. I understand the words, but what do you actually mean by that? And that doesn't always go down well, but quite often it can. And the first talks that I did in creative industry, like for big creative companies or big creative conferences, I'd go there thinking, what the hell are they going to get from me? I'm not even part of this. And consistently, me not being part of it and not... I couldn't create something that I thought they'd like because I don't know them. That was really helpful. And that's where I'm always interested in learning from the outsiders, the people that aren't part of something but are passionate about it. So think that's the thing like for creatives and the creative industry is a wonderful industry to be in if it works for you. There's some really interesting companies and people and projects out there. I think the question would be, is this nurturing and complimenting my fascination and my natural, beautiful wonkiness or am I having to bend myself out of shape here to fit in? both can be okay. I've done jobs and full-time jobs in the middle bit of the sandwich where I was bending myself out of shape but I not always but I knew I was because I needed to earn some money I think as long as it's a conscious choice I think the trap is when maybe being in an industry for 10 years or 15 years you look back and go ⁓ what happened I left myself behind back there
Heather Ebanks: Yeah, and I think it's probably a bit refreshing. I know you were saying that what am I doing here in this room on this space? And you probably touched on some people's, you know, outer way of thinking because everyone's thinking of corporate the project, what we need to do. And you're you're kind of being very transparent saying, but have you thought about this? What am I doing here? What? Why are you making yourself tied in, tongue tied about something that's not important. You're kind of questioning their inner dialogue and you're that person that prods them a bit and saying, ⁓ take them out of themselves kind of situation and that's refreshing. ⁓
Steve Chapman: Yeah, I like that. Yeah. And I think it's just by doing that and people will do that with me as well, that it directs the attention back inwards. And I've done quite a lot of work in academia and like supervision on masters programs and particularly in the world of like culture change, particularly in the corporate world of culture change. There's a language that I understand, but people disappear behind. And a lot of what I used to say when I was supervising dissertations about stuff like that is, what do you believe? Like they'd write, here's what some of the great theorists believe, and here's what the theory says, and this is how the theory could be applied. And I say, what do you believe? And it would stump people. But I think that's the most important thing is, what are my needs? What are the things that are important to me that I'll make a stand for what do I believe and am I able to find ways to do that because we just we listen we can lose ourselves behind the language and I went straight from school into work but then I did a master's degree later in life and I wrote my dissertation about spontaneity And I wrote it whilst I was in a full-time job in the corporate world, which I just can't imagine that now. It's like, how did I do that? But part of what I did for my research, my dissertation, is I recorded myself in meetings and in other situations, like performing improv and stuff like that. And then it was about eight or nine years, maybe even 10 years after I did that. the recording came up on shuffle play for some reason when I was listening and I listened to myself speaking in this meeting and I just thought I have not got a clue what I am talking about. And that's me and that is like, wow, what is this language that I'm using that's impenetrable? At the time I wasn't thinking that because that's the language. And if I had if I if that me was talking to me now, I'd say, can you just stop? I don't know what you're talking about. So it's, I think it's just a natural thing, isn't it? Of how we create norms and how we create cultures, but realizing they're a, they're not real. ⁓ They're socially constructed.
Heather Ebanks: that reminds me, you've got a mask workshop, people to ⁓ explore parts of themselves have never met before. what does mask reveal a person do you think that they may never seen or discovered before about
Steve Chapman: my interest in masks started when, again, when I was doing my dissertation, I trained with a theatre director called Keith Johnson, who's credited as one of the grandfathers of improvisation. And at one of his workshops, Keith got out this old box of masks and said, oh, I think we'll do some masks and... got these freaky looking like half masks out just the top half of the face and I just thought I'm not gonna do that. That looks too terrifying and I did it and I hated it and it's just I thought I got it wrong it didn't make any sense but I became fascinated by it because the that Keith worked with masks, called it trance masks. he'd use a mirror and the sort of the shock, I guess, of experiencing yourself as different with the mask on to create like this spontaneous state. And so I went back, even though I hated the first experience, I went back and did more and more masks and then soon realized this is, I loved how freaky a weird is. And it's I like it when people have been to my mask workshops and people ask them, what's it about? They go, I don't know how to describe it. So I then developed my own techniques that are called Gestalt masks, which is a similar thing inspired by Keefe's work, which is you're using a mask that looks nothing like it does on your face than it does when you look at it off your face. And through warming up and getting closer to that spontaneous self-expression, people find themselves... just expressing parts of their personality that have been repressed or they didn't know that was there. And then I'm working with them one-to-one and I'm spotting these little things and helping nurture it. And I've seen people that want to be more assertive become more assertive or people that want to be more still become more still or people that can't sing like create a voice and things like that. It just fascinates me how much of a thin slice of ourselves that we potentially inhabit and express. And masks are a very weird and intense but powerful and brilliant way of doing that. And I have been running workshops for like 12 years now and I've never had anyone take off a mask and go, ⁓ I'm so embarrassed. Lots of people have taken off a mask and gone, I've no idea where that came from. And then lots of people have come back to see what else is in there. So it's my favorite workshop to do. And I only do like three or four a year because they're utterly exhausting because they're intense and brilliant.
Heather Ebanks: Hmm. So it's a mixture of like, was it psychology, theatre, improv? Yeah.
Steve Chapman: Yeah It is, and again, I come at it backwards. It's just, ⁓ I wonder what would happen if I run a mask workshop, and then making sense of it through a lens of an experience of improv and psychology. But it's one of those things that I like the magic and wonder and mystery of it. I don't really want to understand much more about it. I'm very careful around boundaries and making sure people know what they're coming to. Even though some people have turned up and then at the end said, I thought this was a mask making workshop. It was a bit different to what I thought. because it what I find is I'm asked by a lot of corporates can you come and do a mask workshop for people on this course and I always say probably not because it tends to be like there's different like this week they're gonna do accounting then they're gonna do strategy and then they're gonna do this freaky mask thing and then they're gonna do I don't know HR it's it's not it's not a I find People ask for stretch and difference and challenge, but don't really want it. And masks do that in a brilliant way. so yeah, I love the mystery of it and the magic of it. It's limited to 10 people. I make it as affordable as possible because I don't think this type of work should just be accessible to those that have got the money to do it. And... 10 people come along, but there's like 70 people in the workshop really.
Heather Ebanks: I know that people are discovering themselves while they're putting the mask on, but has there been anything unexpected situations that you didn't expect to find when people were putting the masks on ⁓ that tickled you or you or horrified you? ⁓
Steve Chapman: Every time and it's still a challenge for me as well because I'm facilitating and coaching and nurturing this thing that doesn't know what it is that's discovering itself for the first time. So as a ⁓ coach and as someone that works one to one with people, that's a great workout for me because I'm right on that edge of not knowing what's going on. What's interesting, we often think of masks as something we hide behind and that's mainly what masks are written, but these are masks that reveal and the moments that come to mind was I do a thing at most workshops, is a mask TED talk. it's basically someone walk on stage in a mask and they have, I will tell you, say the name of the talk, which is normally some bizarre talk, like what squirrels taught me about love or something like that. and they have two seconds to prep and it's a two minute talk and they will give these beautiful, eloquent, amazing, inspiring, engaging talks without any hesitation with stage presence and I've not told them to do that. And every those talks astound me every time. And there's been favorite ones. Someone did a talk that was 10 ways to kill a gerbil. I don't come up with the titles. The group get the group come up with the titles and we put them in a hat. And that was one of the funniest things I've seen. And it was just this person listing these ways to kill a gerbil. And it's like this shouldn't really be funny. But there's something about masks and presence that someone could be talking absolute nonsense but you're captivated by it. I mean this must be how cult leaders or US presidents work, like they just captivate, or anyone really, any leader, they captivate people that just say more stuff. And then there's been challenging situations where there's been someone who's put on a mask and sometimes they're wild and wacky and sometimes they're genuinely feeling fear or scared or anxiety. And I'm not engaging with the person in the mask. I'm engaging with what's there. And often it will be, what do you need? Do you want to sit down? And sometimes I'll just sit in silence with them. And it's really intense. was once where someone put on the mask and they discover who they are in that moment and it was around the time when the Calais jungle, the refugee camp was in the news a lot. mean it still exists, it's just not in the news as much but it was in the news a lot and so that it tends to be if there's stuff in the field of our experience it will happen and it seemed that this guy was a refugee or an asylum seeker but he didn't name it but it sort of become clear that it was something like that. And I sat down with him on the floor and was just listening to him, listening to his experience and empathizing. And then every now and then he'd get really angry with me. It was like being part of the problem. And it's like, ⁓ okay. And then there'd be, and it was so intense and so tough. ⁓ the audience watching it found it so tough. And afterwards he took off the mask and he'd found it really intense. But that's such an important moment. It's like, ⁓ wow, we've not experienced sitting down with someone that's actually had that experience, but we are, the mask's generating an intense empathy and compassion. And so moments like that always stick with me, the funny ones, the intense ones, the ones where I'm thinking, I don't know what to do here.
Heather Ebanks: Yeah, it just, it feels like almost like therapy for them, but ⁓ intense for you probably. Do you feel like I don't know how to deal with this? Am I trained to, to cope with something as serious as this, but yeah.
Steve Chapman: Yeah. No, I mean, I'm very confident with boundaries in the mask workshop and I've done lots of therapeutic training and I know I'm very clear on the boundary between therapeutic and therapy, but that doesn't mean that it could tip into that. And I'm clear with people coming beforehand. It's like, this is fun and intense and playful and it can get you in touch with stuff. So if you have, if you know you have unresolved trauma or something like that, maybe speak to me beforehand. But quite often I'm never thinking I don't know what to do with this or I'm not qualified for it. I'm often thinking I'm not sure what to do and I am really influenced and trained a lot in Gestalt psychology and really in those moments I'll just say to the mask, I don't know what to do, I don't know to do now, how's that for you? And it's all... I think there's a lot of time creating a safe enough space and I think the group size contributes to that as well. And people have time, we have space to process. If we've done something that's been really intense, we can take breaks and things like that. That's not to say it could never. It could never like get to an edge for someone or for me. But I always say to people that go when you want, leave when you want, participate as much or as little as you want. If you get to the end of the day and you've not even put on a mask, brilliant, that's fine. You're still participating. And only once someone got to the first break and said, this isn't for me, they left. And it's like, great. I sort of like to engage with participants as adults. It's like, I can take... care of you as much as you can take care of yourself. I'm not in your brain. I'm not your therapist. ⁓ So if stuff's feeling too much, then take responsibility for that and step away.
Heather Ebanks: Yeah, it sounds like a good, experience all around anyway, regards to wearing a mask and, and it's, yeah, it sounds like a great session that you're having and I hope you keep on doing it sounds really good.
Steve Chapman: Yeah, there's two or three a year that I do and they're always uniquely different.
Heather Ebanks: So studio draw is that physical draw that's in your desk. messy part of your life that nobody wants to see or you don't want anyone to know about. So I'm going to ask a few questions about you as a creative. it's a bit lighthearted.
Steve Chapman: Mm, I like that.
Heather Ebanks: someone's just opened your studio drawer. What's the most unexpected item? we're gonna find inside.
Steve Chapman: I'm not in my studio now, but I can picture the drawer. I think there are those interdental toothpick things. Which, yeah, I mean, I've never used them in the studio. I don't know why they're there. But they're in the drawer right next to, I've got two desks in the studio, in there. And I don't know, there's probably some other stuff in there like that. Oh, there's an old CBD oil that's gone off.
Heather Ebanks: Got a floss. So it's time for a clear out.
Steve Chapman: Yeah, yeah, think, but stuff like that. I think the bit is not in a drawer, but there's some really old paintings that I don't like. it's like, I don't want people to rifle through them because I don't like them. I only want them to see the stuff that I like. So I'd be more, I'd be more embarrassed by those and feel the need to explain those.
Heather Ebanks: what is your favourite way to break out a creative rut?
Steve Chapman: I think, and it doesn't ⁓ good at the time, but I think you have to absolutely love the creative rut, love it so much, like really embrace it. And it's like, okay, creative rut, I'm not going to try and get out of it. I'm just going to study it and be curious about it. And there's the ⁓ philosophy, which is the obstacle is the path. ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ I think you have to absolutely the creative rut, love it so much, like really embrace it. okay, creative rut, I'm not going to try and get out of it. I'm just going to study it and be curious about it. And there's the ⁓ Buddhist philosophy, which is the obstacle is the path. And it's... the idea of move towards the thing you're trying to get away from. And absolutely, it's not like, oh, I'm in a creative rut, wonderful, I'm enjoying it. It's painful and it's horrible the idea of move towards the thing you're trying to get away from. And absolutely, it's not like, oh, I'm in a creative rut, wonderful, I'm enjoying it. It's painful and it's horrible and it can lead into a spiral of other stuff. I speak about it on an episode of the podcast, I think, as in that rut once, and this is a tiny example. And... When I'm in that rut, it's like time, my relationship with time changes. becomes time drags and I'm trying to find things to do and it's just horrible. And I get bored quite easily. I was sitting in my studio and time was dragging. I wasn't feeling great and I was utterly bored. And it's like, I don't know what to do. And I thought, what would happen if I loved my boredom so much? I loved it so much that I couldn't help but paint it. And so I ended up just improvising a painting and ended up with a painting of this big blue cat, ominous blue cat with massive words on it saying, yeah, saying, I am very bored.
Heather Ebanks: I know the one, yeah.
Steve Chapman: and then before I realized it's like ⁓ two hours have gone I'm not bored anymore by moving towards that boredom I've done that and then that went on that's become a best-selling t-shirt since then so I think that thing of okay I'm in a rut right the rut is as important it's everything else I don't like it I don't want to be here but The more I try to get out of it, for me, the harder it becomes. It's like, I need to move with it. I need to do Tai Chi with the rat rather than boxing.
Heather Ebanks: Wonderful. Another question for you in StudioDraw. What's the most hilarious wrong assumption someone's made about what you do?
Steve Chapman: All right. I mean, there's the one I've already mentioned where people come to the mask workshop thinking it's like an arts and crafts mask making workshop. I really don't know. That's a really interesting question, because one of the things I struggle with most is a fear of being misunderstood. I don't know if it's a hilarious assumption, quite. I remember people thinking that I'm really aloof or above them or something like that and it is just it's part of my wiring that I'm probably just like panicking in a moment trying to work out how to interact with someone. ⁓ So I think that may be thinking like that's how I am. I think a lot of people will have an assumption around success as an artist, which is purely based on the numbers of followers and stuff like that, but it doesn't make any difference. People say, well, how do you make consistent money as an artist? It's like, why are you asking me? I have no idea.
Heather Ebanks: What is the most ridiculous thing in your studio workspace ⁓ and why is it there?
Steve Chapman: I I'm everything, the entire spaces. I mean, I've got a six foot three mannequin with a massive... head mask that I made that stands in the corner of the studio that's holding a cowboy hat that I wore, wearing a cowboy hat that I wore for an exhibition and a guitar that I painted and has these gloves on its hands and that's just in the corner of the studio because I didn't have anywhere to keep it and wanted to get rid of it but it's a striking thing and people walk past and look in the window of my studio and it's the first thing they see. and it takes up so much room, but I love ⁓ being there. He's called Len. ⁓ love Len being there. And Len actually was a mask that I made to help me experiment with movement and dancing. It's like, ⁓ do I feel ⁓ comfortable? And I'm tall and long, and so I've always been very ⁓ of how much space I take up. And I thought, ⁓ Len was a character that I used to draw. I Len doesn't care. Len would just move in whatever way he wants, however ridiculous it is. So I made the massive mask of Len and then did some videos of Len dancing. And then Len went to a festival and led a dance class in a tent. I was doing this crazy dancing. And it's like, I couldn't do that, but Len could. So Len has some important memories for me.
Heather Ebanks: Cool. That's the last question of StudioDraw. ⁓ yeah, just remembered. ⁓ Tell me about your crow friend.
Steve Chapman: I like that. You might see the jackdaws eating their lunch there. ⁓ But now the crow friend, ⁓ when I here, I ended up here accident in southwest London, ⁓ but I'm quite close to the Thames. And I had my studio, I used to spend quite a bit of time just sitting by the Thames painting and walking up and down there a lot. And I walk there every day now to my studio in Kingston. And I just, I've always been interested in creatures. I find creatures much more easy to interact with than humans. And there's just these two crows that were there and they'd be there all the time. And they seemed maybe slightly interested in me. So I'd stop and I'd sit down and throw them some monkey nuts because shelled nuts are prized in the COVID world. And then one of them, there's a pair, I think they're a breeding pair, kept coming closer and closer. And then eventually, then it became an obsession. I'd go and see them every day. I put out my hand and then she came and took a monkey nut from my hand. And then eventually now, when I walk past the river, she's either waiting for me or I call her. I just go, and she comes swooping down, jumps on my lap and eats monkey nuts out of my hand. And it's lovely because Corvids have got a brilliant memory for people. That's why you should never be mean to a crow, because it will then pursue you for the rest of your life. And they teach the next generation as well. They pass on those things. So, that's my crow friend, and she's inspired a number of paintings and bits of artwork. And it's just something so magical and I don't know, wonderful about that. It's I... I will never have any projections with the crow like she's not there. I won't be thinking, what have I done to offend her? Did I say something bad or like when she sits on my lap, it's not that she loves me. It's we have a symbiotic relationship in which I provide her food. So I and I've known her for two years now and I love that. I'll walk along and see her and I'm not allowed to have pets in my flat. So and she's not a pet, but we have a she's my friend. And then I have the jackdaws, the jackdaws and crows that come to the window every day. And it's a little wag tail that comes to the window. I call them the window silk gang. but you can find those ⁓ little environments in lots of places, in a concrete environment, there'll be a crow or something there.
Heather Ebanks: Steve, thank you for sharing your story with me. ⁓ If anyone to reach out to you and ⁓ you in your business, how would they do that?
Steve Chapman: This is the bit I'm always rubbish at. ⁓ on Instagram or on all social media I'm Steve Xoh which is Steve XOH. you can find me on there and if you want to see my work and stuff or get in touch you can send me a message there. ⁓ website which is canscorpionsmoke.com or one word so can scorpionsmoke there's only one or you can just type that into Google it doesn't go I'm normally the number one hit and then you get stuff about smoking scorpions to get high and things like that and the podcast is called creative adventures an accidental podcast so any of those are ways of ways of getting in contact
Heather Ebanks: Thank you, Steve.
Steve Chapman: No, thank you so much for having me. It's one of those moments where time has just flown by.
Heather Ebanks: cool. We're definitely going to be talking more about what you actually do and it's quite a wide collective selection of all your... yeah. This is question I love to ask my guests when they're on the podcast is when you hear the words bold voices, messy journeys, zero apologies, which part of your journey does that resonate with?
Steve Chapman: Yeah, yeah, that's good way of saying it. I think messy, just the word messy. ⁓ Not having a plan or maybe having a plan but not really knowing what it is. And the messiness is what makes life exciting I think and it can make it traumatic and hard as well but yeah I'd rather have ⁓ a messy journey than any of other things.
Heather Ebanks: Hmm. Yeah. Some people answer all of those. This is a combination of, you know, some people have a quiet voice, they want to be more bold. So it's interesting. ⁓ I think you described yourself as ⁓ a weird child. When did you first learn that you were weird and was it valuable?
Steve Chapman: Geez, that's brilliant question. ⁓ Not as a child, I didn't know that at all. No, and probably over the last 20 years ⁓ is when I realized it. And particularly more recently, looking back and writing and recording a podcast and reminiscing about childhood, thinking...
Heather Ebanks: I'm joined by Steve Chapman, artist, illustrator, writer, speaker, podcaster, accidental industry outsider, and a deeply curious human who has absolutely no interest in fitting neatly into the creative world as it currently exists.
Steve Chapman: there were strange things that I used to do but of course I was just me at the time I didn't know anything else ⁓ like writing this weird music and performing it in assembly and then remembering what that music was the music's in inverted commas and thinking that's a strange thing to do so I guess It's sort like my life's been like a sandwich. I was naturally like that as a kid. And then secondary school didn't really appreciate or embrace that. So I started rounding myself off and trying to fit in, which it didn't succeed. I didn't fit in, but I just also lost myself in it. And then into the world of work and then the middle of the sandwich is just, I guess, trying to fit in and be normal, but really at some level knowing that that's not me.
Heather Ebanks: Steve's work lives in the messy, wonderful in between, between anxiety and whimsy, childhood and adulthood, masking and masking, silence and expression. He doesn't navigate the creative industry so much as wander into it, do something quietly, radical and then disappear again. In this conversation, we talk about reconnecting with your eight year old self, why start before you're ready might be the most generous creative rule you can adopt, how capitalist norms flatten true creativity, why following fascination, not strategy, can lead to the most meaningful work of your life. We explore vulnerability, neurodivergence operating in the edges,
Steve Chapman: And then the final bit of the sandwich, I mean now, mean, maybe it's a multi-layered sandwich. Maybe I'll go back into that bit. But he's just thinking, ⁓ no, I want to reaccess that strange eight-year-old. He was much less professional and productive in that sort of capitalist normal sense of the word, but he was much more fun. was much more interesting.
Heather Ebanks: I'm just thinking, ⁓ you know, as we're children, we're kind of fearless and we have no filters to some degree. And do you think like these eight year olds or younger Steve was ⁓ maybe more, you know, freer? And what is the Steve like today, you think, regards to the comparisons? and what it means to give yourself and unbridled permission to be strange, soft, curious and fully yourself.
Steve Chapman: Well, I think he was definitely freer because the concept of not free hadn't really entered his mind or my mind then, I don't think. Because if I think now and there's some areas of my life I really don't care what other people think. So with my art, I don't care if anyone likes it or I genuinely don't. And I make it just for me. But with stuff like I write music and I occasionally perform music at an open mic and I care too much about what other people think and I always hate the experience and I hate the idea of it, I hate doing it and then afterwards I'll never do that again. But for eight-year-old Steve to create this nonsensical piece of music and then recruit someone else to play it with him as a duet and then perform that in assembly in front of the school, I guess that must have been, it must have been free. But I cannot remember, and it's strange, isn't it, memory? Because memory isn't like a videotape. It's we recreate the memory in that moment as we access it. So it's going to be completely distorted. It's so long ago. But I don't remember it even coming into my mind. What if people think this is shit? What if people think you're weird? So there would have been a lot more freedom then. And I think maybe I'm a... I'm a work in progress mix of eight year old me and the middle bit of that sandwich, like the sensible me that learns how the world works. maybe a bit more of a happy balance now because eight year old me probably wouldn't survive in the world just being like that. So I've learned some sensibilities but it's that whole thing of like you need to know the rules in order to break the rules. Play the game in order to make the game work for you. So it's maybe a happy mix now but it's always a work in progress. I sort of hope I never get there wherever there is.
Heather Ebanks: Yeah, I don't know about you, when I was similar age, when I was a kid, I was into art and being creative, etc. And I remember this ⁓ part of my life, I wanted to be more creative and I tried to take more risks. But I just remembered the fear mostly of like, was just a little thing. Like I was being in a play and I forgot to remove makeup off my face. And people were just laughing. I couldn't understand why I feel like as creatives, as adults, we feel that we've drifted away from ourselves a bit. ⁓ How do you begin to reconnect that child, that innocence and creative spark that we used to have, you think?
Steve Chapman: Yeah. I don't know if it's a short and unhelpful answer, but I think it's something like the more we seek it, the less we find it. It's more of a being open to it emerging. ⁓ maybe like there's i don't understand quantum physics at all but there's a particle in quantum physics isn't there that doesn't exist when it's observed i like that it scrambles my brain so maybe it's a bit like that if we go seeking that freedom that we had as a child it's not going to happen but it's i find now discovering myself in moments of immersion and flow that i only really know i've been in when i come out of them is the way to do it. And art's been that for me before and the podcast and the writing is that for me now. But that there's a there's a concept that I've spoken about in the podcast before called quantum flirting, which comes from a guy called Arnie Mindell. And I love it just the words quantum flirting. As soon as you say quantum flirting to someone, they write it down, even though they don't know what I'm going to say. It might be a brand of washing powder for all they know. That's a good brand of washing powder actually. I would buy a washing powder called quantum flirting even if it didn't wash clothes But quantum flirting the idea that Arnie Mindell speaks about is we go around Our human experience like seeking stuff and thinking we choose to place our attention Whereas quantum flirting for me is the opposite is being open to hearing the quiet whispers of stuff calling for our attention And I think that creativity works in that way as well, or at least for me. If I go seeking an idea, I'm not going to find it. I'm going to find something that's just a synthetic substitute for an idea. Or as if I practice in being open and curious and letting things like dance in the peripheral edges of my awareness, then they're always exciting. And I think as a child, I don't think I would have sought anything in particular. I just do it because I couldn't not do it and I think that fascination the idea of being fascinated has become so important to me because if I'm fascinated I am immersed and I will do stuff and a lot of the projects I've done have been big and strange and people say that must be fearless or brave but it's not it's just I'm so fascinated I can't do it.
Heather Ebanks: Yeah, think, you know, touched on something in regards to like, I think you do talk about it about being the human side of creativity. I think your work, you said explores creativity not as a skill, skill set, but as a way of being human. So what does creativity reveal about what it means to be human, do you think?
Steve Chapman: I mean, it's, I'm always fascinated by the definition we have for creativity. I spoke, I was invited to speak at Cannes Lions in 2017, I think. And I went, it was like in the briefing for it. And I know nothing about the creative industry at all. I've worked in it, I like drop in and do a talk or a workshop and then drop out again. So I know I have no expertise in it. And I genuinely found it bizarre when I was in Cannes, people introduced themselves to me saying, oh, I'm a creative or I'm not a creative. And so what are you talking about? I don't understand. And then they said for me, I mean, it's an entire long week long festival of creativity. And I mean, it's huge. And they said to me, right, the last day when I was doing my talk, that that bit's about the human side of creativity. And I said to them, what the hell are you doing the rest of week then? What's all that about? Because for me, it's, guess that type of creativity, I'm not knocking it, I just don't understand it, is that's about commoditizing something. It's a different, maybe it's a big C creativity, like capital C creativity. But as human beings, we need to be creative in order to cross the road every time. For me, it's our ability to... respond to a moment in a particular way that meets our needs or serves our needs. it's for me creativity is getting closer to a freedom of spontaneous self-expression. And I love that freedom of spontaneous self-expression because that makes it neutral. It doesn't mean it's about making art or about doing a dance. your creative free self-expression could be that you have a pen in your hand and you draw something. Or it could be that you have a spreadsheet or you're caring for a child or something. So for me, it's... Maybe that big C creativity that confuses me is a manifestation of the other thing, but I think at the heart of it, that's what it is. It's just a natural human thing. And I guess maybe every sentient creature has it, but we have the curse of an observer brain, so we obsess about it too much, whereas everything else just does it naturally.
Heather Ebanks: Yeah, and we kind of almost self-sabotage ourselves sometimes with always feeling uncomfortable, living on the edge of things and not being comfortable with being uncomfortable, if you know what mean. and yeah. And yeah.
Steve Chapman: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. it's, think, fear of rejection, fear of... I damage self-worth and things like that. They, mean, they inhibit me all the time, but I think that's what, that's what lies at the heart of it. There's a, there's a philosopher called Eric Fromm, who wrote a book called Escape from Freedom that he may have come across. And Fromm's whole hypothesis was that if human beings really experience the freedom that we so desire, it would utterly overwhelm us. Because we'd have to completely accept that we are insignificant and impermanent beings floating around in a disinterested universe. So he was saying that everything we do is an escape from freedom. Like we'll do these things so we don't experience that and I love that as a hypothesis. But he talks about intrinsic and extrinsic freedom. He calls it something else that confused me. So I've changed it to intrinsic and extrinsic freedom. And that's what is the freedom that the world out there appears to give me. And that could be that I'm in a job that I feel gives me or restricts my freedom or a relationship. But what's the really interesting thing is where's that internal restriction of freedom? And a lot of that comes from really old stuff around self-worth, around identity, around who we are, around the rules that I swallowed as being true about me and who I should be because of who I am. And so that, yeah, I think that both factors are important, but we often obsess with the external factors and that they're really important as well. And depending on who you are, where you live, in your circumstances, they're going to be more or less oppressive. But that important work, that inner works as important, if not more important.
Heather Ebanks: Yeah, and I like the way you described, you celebrate, was it the wonkiness, the awkward, messy parts of being a human being creative? What do you think most people, why people try too hard to hide their process? What do think that is? Do you think apart from being, you know, scared and fearful, do you think there's other reasons why people do it?
Steve Chapman: Yeah. I mean, maybe it's a norm. I did a thing at Amsterdam Fashion Academy, I think it was last January, January 2025. And it was a lovely event. was groups of the, and I know nothing about the fashion world, clearly. And it was like groups of fashion students in their final year, and they invited people from the fashion industry and me for some reason. And we just sat down at tables and had different conversations with them and rotated around. And it was lovely event. And they were, I guess, early mid-20s. And every table, every conversation, I got asked the same question, roughly, which was, so when does the fear go? When does that fear about getting it wrong or that anxiety, where does the anxiety go? And I said, ⁓ I don't think it does. I still experience it, and I was a lot older than them. and they were really surprised by that and also found it they they were sort of disappointed but i think they found it really helpful as well and it's like ⁓ right so maybe part of it is thinking that there is a completeness or there is an absence that that comes and by expressing that vulnerability or that anxiety or that fear i'm maybe part of it is thinking that there is a completeness there an absence that that comes ⁓ and by expressing that vulnerability or that anxiety or that fear ⁓ i'm ⁓ I'm going to be less or my self-worth is going to be less in that way. it's now become so much that if I didn't allow the imperfections and wonkiness in my art, it wouldn't be my art anymore. I'm going to be less or my self-worth is going to be less in that way. Whereas I think I like leaving. mean, it's now become so much that if I didn't allow the imperfections and wonkiness in my art, it wouldn't be my art anymore. And it sort of defines it. guess what might be wonky or an error or not make sense to me, someone else might make sense of it. So it's sort of part, I mean, there's a load we can go into here around. be wonky or an error or not make sense to me, someone else might make sense of it. what it means, like the norms of what it means to be a successful human being, know, at least in a, don't know other societies well at all, but to be a successful human being in a Western capitalist society, it's not really geared towards wonkiness and eros about straight lines and linear progression and things like that. So there's probably a load of a load of social and psychological and philosophical factors that play there. I mean, I always come back to, well, we don't know where we came from when we don't know where we're going. So why should the bit in the middle make sense? Why should the bit in the middle be nice and neat and ordered? This is probably the most normal bit of our experience. So yeah, but I sort of take an existential philosophical lens to everything that doesn't make sense to everyone, but it soothes me.
Heather Ebanks: enjoyed that ⁓ kind of wonkiness of your style I think I did mention that ⁓ very similar to ⁓ one of artists that you do love, ⁓ Jim aka Vic Reeves and Bob fame ⁓ I see similarities and ⁓
Steve Chapman: Yeah.
Heather Ebanks: I think you met him, didn't you, on one of your podcasts.
Steve Chapman: Yeah, I did. I did a project in 2018 which was called Sound of Silence, which was the world's first silent podcast featuring special guests. And that's a good example actually of a curious question that I've become fascinated by so much so that I don't care what anyone else thinks. it was, that came about because it was at a time when... there was just a plethora of podcasts that I was coming across that didn't seem to have much to say. And were people doing a podcast just for the sake of doing a podcast? That's what everyone was doing. And I just thought, ⁓ I wonder what the opposite of a podcast would be. ⁓ it would be nothing. It would be silence. And what if I broadcast silence every week? And what would make it weirder is what if I had a special guest that had on every week and we record it face to face? And what would make it even more extreme is having maybe some big names and celebrities on it. And so that's what I did. Every week for two and half years, a hundred episodes, put out recorded silence. and invited loads of people like people I admired, people I'd always wanted to meet, and Jim was one of them. And he was the first sort of celebrity, I guess, that said yes to it. And it was such a weird day. I went to his house in Kent and I remember walking up the drive to knock on his door and thinking, I'm knocking on Vic Reeves' door to record silence with him. And this is someone that I grew up watching on telly and... But again, that's it. If you follow your fascination, you're going to have all sorts of adventures.
Heather Ebanks: It's just strange to think that we would depend on the silence, but then the space and quietness speaks volume sometimes. And you're waiting for the anticipation. Like I've listened to a few episodes and I was like, this must be either really, really awkward for the recording or really, really fascinating. And I was wondering what are they?
Steve Chapman: Yeah. Yeah.
Heather Ebanks: doing? Are they looking at each other? Are they ignoring each other? What are they doing physically? And it's interesting. ⁓ What you do in that short, was it three minutes approximately for each episode?
Steve Chapman: Yeah, was two minutes of silence. I do a quick introduction. Then we have two minutes of silence and then thank you at the end. I never literally was what happens if I put out a silent podcast. And what's great about not having KPIs or objectives is it you can learn so much more wherever it goes. And that was one of the fascinating things around what the silence did to the listeners, because it created a space that they could pour their imagination or their needs into it. And people would say, I love this podcast, it's about anxiety, or I love this podcast, it's about mental health, or I love this podcast, it's about seagulls, because there's seagulls in the background or something. And I'd say, yeah, that's what it's about. And it's like, OK, this is interesting. It's a downloadable empty container or an audible empty container. And people will go in different directions with it. And then for me, the experience of every guest was completely different. And I mean, I soon realized that literal silence, an absence of vibration or noise, was impossible to find anywhere. The only place I found it was in an underground medieval prison cell. And that was interesting in itself because we recorded there and it's like, I have to go to a place of oppression and torture to find silence in a modern world. But it was different for different people. Sometimes we sort of just looked at each other awkwardly and sometimes we'd just sit with our heads down and... ⁓ I remember I recorded with Terry Waite, former Beirut hostage. And that was fascinating because we spent the entire day together talking about philosophy and war and peace and religion and captivity, then recorded nothing, then carried on with the amazing conversation. But that was, I just remember recording with Terry and he shut his eyes. So I shut my eyes and then I opened my eyes just before the end because I needed to see how much longer we had left on my timer. I just thought, I wonder where he's gone. I wonder where he's gone in this moment. And then I wonder where the listeners will go in that moment as well. And what's bizarre is... some of the episodes are way more popular than others and it's like why is Eddie Izzard's silence more popular than the little old lady down the road I recorded with? Again it's just fascinating that even in silence the fact that it's someone that's known makes it more listenable and what i love is the whole thing i could have made up the whole thing i could have just i could have just sat in my studio pretending and then photoshopping photos of people so the whole thing could be a massive ruse i mean i wish it was it cost me so much money like traveling around doing it but again it was just a fascinating project that started with a curious question and then it's same with all of the projects it's like there were points when I hated it absolutely hated it it's like ⁓ but because I designed an end point endings are really important to me because I designed an end point right at the start I wanted to get to that end point
Heather Ebanks: ⁓ So why did you hate it? Those moments to think.
Steve Chapman: Oh, there were moments when it's like I'd get one guest for every 20 that I invited or it would be I've got to travel for five hours to record two minutes of silence with someone and just, I don't know, like sometimes I think, oh, this is an episode that, and this is another really important thing that this is an episode that everyone's going to love and then not many people listen to it. which is a trap with anything. It's the same with art. If I make art to be popular, then it's not going to work. And I think it was just maybe, and I think I've let go of this now, is as an artist and a creative thinking, always waiting for that thing that's going to be the big break and then realizing that that doesn't happen. ⁓ It occasionally happens for a tiny, tiny amount of people. but mainly time and money and then just getting towards the end and thinking what am I doing here? I need to be earning money. And I had the same thing with What the February which was the challenge that I did on Instagram every year. So every day in February I'd post a creative challenge and I'd illustrate the art. It just it took so long it took two months of prep and then every day in February was taken over by it. And by the third year, then thousands of people around the world were taking part in it. So that became really popular. But by the third year, it's just like, ⁓ I can't be bothered. I really can't be bothered. This is too much work. And so the next year I killed it. So it's that type of thing. guess it's when my fascination in something starts to wane, that's when I start to fall out of love with it. So that's why intentionally designing good endings is really important.
Heather Ebanks: Hmm. Things nicely goes on to the next question, I think, regards to, I think you said earlier on that you don't really navigate the creative industry, you kind of drop in and then drop out. And then you, is that intentional, do you think?
Steve Chapman: Maybe at some level, I mean, the obvious logical thing is that it's just circumstances. I've never been part of that industry. But. I think that I've never really felt part of anything fully or felt like I've fitted into anything fully. I even in the art world, I go to art things. It's like, oh, this isn't me. But I think later in life, I've started to embrace that. I oh, no, that's OK, mate. That's my sweet spot. That's my niche, that existing on the edges of something. So it probably, I could. The surface answer is no, it's just logistical. I never trained in any of that industry. But probably there is something about that. I think becoming too much part of something, maybe experienced losing some of the freedom, particularly the freedom to do strange stuff or the freedom to fuck up. So yeah, I've never really been part of that.
Heather Ebanks: What is the thinking of staying on the edges of creativity and do you think it's creative? Do we think we are protecting our creativity or do you think does it do more harm not getting involved in industry in some way?
Steve Chapman: you mean for creatives getting involved in the creative industry? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's I think the whole thing comes back to
Heather Ebanks: Yeah.
Steve Chapman: is whatever I'm doing, whether that's paid work, unpaid work, is that allowing me to follow my fascination? So I think a creative job and an artist job is just to be fascinated, genuinely deeply fascinated in whatever you're fascinated by and finding ways to do that. And if someone pays you to do that, then brilliant. I mean, the advantage that I have of there's so many industries that I've worked in and showed up and done stuff is because I'm not an expert in them, I bump into all of the unconsciousness question norms and rules and language. I would say I haven't got a clue what you're talking about. I understand the words, but what do you actually mean by that? And that doesn't always go down well, but quite often it can. And the first talks that I did in creative industry, like for big creative companies or big creative conferences, I'd go there thinking, what the hell are they going to get from me? I'm not even part of this. And consistently, me not being part of it and not... I couldn't create something that I thought they'd like because I don't know them. That was really helpful. And that's where I'm always interested in learning from the outsiders, the people that aren't part of something but are passionate about it. So think that's the thing like for creatives and the creative industry is a wonderful industry to be in if it works for you. There's some really interesting companies and people and projects out there. I think the question would be, is this nurturing and complimenting my fascination and my natural, beautiful wonkiness or am I having to bend myself out of shape here to fit in? both can be okay. I've done jobs and full-time jobs in the middle bit of the sandwich where I was bending myself out of shape but I not always but I knew I was because I needed to earn some money I think as long as it's a conscious choice I think the trap is when maybe being in an industry for 10 years or 15 years you look back and go ⁓ what happened I left myself behind back there
Heather Ebanks: Yeah, and I think it's probably a bit refreshing. I know you were saying that what am I doing here in this room on this space? And you probably touched on some people's, you know, outer way of thinking because everyone's thinking of corporate the project, what we need to do. And you're you're kind of being very transparent saying, but have you thought about this? What am I doing here? What? Why are you making yourself tied in, tongue tied about something that's not important. You're kind of questioning their inner dialogue and you're that person that prods them a bit and saying, ⁓ take them out of themselves kind of situation and that's refreshing. ⁓
Steve Chapman: Yeah, I like that. Yeah. And I think it's just by doing that and people will do that with me as well, that it directs the attention back inwards. And I've done quite a lot of work in academia and like supervision on masters programs and particularly in the world of like culture change, particularly in the corporate world of culture change. There's a language that I understand, but people disappear behind. And a lot of what I used to say when I was supervising dissertations about stuff like that is, what do you believe? Like they'd write, here's what some of the great theorists believe, and here's what the theory says, and this is how the theory could be applied. And I say, what do you believe? And it would stump people. But I think that's the most important thing is, what are my needs? What are the things that are important to me that I'll make a stand for what do I believe and am I able to find ways to do that because we just we listen we can lose ourselves behind the language and I went straight from school into work but then I did a master's degree later in life and I wrote my dissertation about spontaneity And I wrote it whilst I was in a full-time job in the corporate world, which I just can't imagine that now. It's like, how did I do that? But part of what I did for my research, my dissertation, is I recorded myself in meetings and in other situations, like performing improv and stuff like that. And then it was about eight or nine years, maybe even 10 years after I did that. the recording came up on shuffle play for some reason when I was listening and I listened to myself speaking in this meeting and I just thought I have not got a clue what I am talking about. And that's me and that is like, wow, what is this language that I'm using that's impenetrable? At the time I wasn't thinking that because that's the language. And if I had if I if that me was talking to me now, I'd say, can you just stop? I don't know what you're talking about. So it's, I think it's just a natural thing, isn't it? Of how we create norms and how we create cultures, but realizing they're a, they're not real. ⁓ They're socially constructed.
Heather Ebanks: that reminds me, you've got a mask workshop, people to ⁓ explore parts of themselves have never met before. what does mask reveal a person do you think that they may never seen or discovered before about
Steve Chapman: my interest in masks started when, again, when I was doing my dissertation, I trained with a theatre director called Keith Johnson, who's credited as one of the grandfathers of improvisation. And at one of his workshops, Keith got out this old box of masks and said, oh, I think we'll do some masks and... got these freaky looking like half masks out just the top half of the face and I just thought I'm not gonna do that. That looks too terrifying and I did it and I hated it and it's just I thought I got it wrong it didn't make any sense but I became fascinated by it because the that Keith worked with masks, called it trance masks. he'd use a mirror and the sort of the shock, I guess, of experiencing yourself as different with the mask on to create like this spontaneous state. And so I went back, even though I hated the first experience, I went back and did more and more masks and then soon realized this is, I loved how freaky a weird is. And it's I like it when people have been to my mask workshops and people ask them, what's it about? They go, I don't know how to describe it. So I then developed my own techniques that are called Gestalt masks, which is a similar thing inspired by Keefe's work, which is you're using a mask that looks nothing like it does on your face than it does when you look at it off your face. And through warming up and getting closer to that spontaneous self-expression, people find themselves... just expressing parts of their personality that have been repressed or they didn't know that was there. And then I'm working with them one-to-one and I'm spotting these little things and helping nurture it. And I've seen people that want to be more assertive become more assertive or people that want to be more still become more still or people that can't sing like create a voice and things like that. It just fascinates me how much of a thin slice of ourselves that we potentially inhabit and express. And masks are a very weird and intense but powerful and brilliant way of doing that. And I have been running workshops for like 12 years now and I've never had anyone take off a mask and go, ⁓ I'm so embarrassed. Lots of people have taken off a mask and gone, I've no idea where that came from. And then lots of people have come back to see what else is in there. So it's my favorite workshop to do. And I only do like three or four a year because they're utterly exhausting because they're intense and brilliant.
Heather Ebanks: Hmm. So it's a mixture of like, was it psychology, theatre, improv? Yeah.
Steve Chapman: Yeah It is, and again, I come at it backwards. It's just, ⁓ I wonder what would happen if I run a mask workshop, and then making sense of it through a lens of an experience of improv and psychology. But it's one of those things that I like the magic and wonder and mystery of it. I don't really want to understand much more about it. I'm very careful around boundaries and making sure people know what they're coming to. Even though some people have turned up and then at the end said, I thought this was a mask making workshop. It was a bit different to what I thought. because it what I find is I'm asked by a lot of corporates can you come and do a mask workshop for people on this course and I always say probably not because it tends to be like there's different like this week they're gonna do accounting then they're gonna do strategy and then they're gonna do this freaky mask thing and then they're gonna do I don't know HR it's it's not it's not a I find People ask for stretch and difference and challenge, but don't really want it. And masks do that in a brilliant way. so yeah, I love the mystery of it and the magic of it. It's limited to 10 people. I make it as affordable as possible because I don't think this type of work should just be accessible to those that have got the money to do it. And... 10 people come along, but there's like 70 people in the workshop really.
Heather Ebanks: I know that people are discovering themselves while they're putting the mask on, but has there been anything unexpected situations that you didn't expect to find when people were putting the masks on ⁓ that tickled you or you or horrified you? ⁓
Steve Chapman: Every time and it's still a challenge for me as well because I'm facilitating and coaching and nurturing this thing that doesn't know what it is that's discovering itself for the first time. So as a ⁓ coach and as someone that works one to one with people, that's a great workout for me because I'm right on that edge of not knowing what's going on. What's interesting, we often think of masks as something we hide behind and that's mainly what masks are written, but these are masks that reveal and the moments that come to mind was I do a thing at most workshops, is a mask TED talk. it's basically someone walk on stage in a mask and they have, I will tell you, say the name of the talk, which is normally some bizarre talk, like what squirrels taught me about love or something like that. and they have two seconds to prep and it's a two minute talk and they will give these beautiful, eloquent, amazing, inspiring, engaging talks without any hesitation with stage presence and I've not told them to do that. And every those talks astound me every time. And there's been favorite ones. Someone did a talk that was 10 ways to kill a gerbil. I don't come up with the titles. The group get the group come up with the titles and we put them in a hat. And that was one of the funniest things I've seen. And it was just this person listing these ways to kill a gerbil. And it's like this shouldn't really be funny. But there's something about masks and presence that someone could be talking absolute nonsense but you're captivated by it. I mean this must be how cult leaders or US presidents work, like they just captivate, or anyone really, any leader, they captivate people that just say more stuff. And then there's been challenging situations where there's been someone who's put on a mask and sometimes they're wild and wacky and sometimes they're genuinely feeling fear or scared or anxiety. And I'm not engaging with the person in the mask. I'm engaging with what's there. And often it will be, what do you need? Do you want to sit down? And sometimes I'll just sit in silence with them. And it's really intense. was once where someone put on the mask and they discover who they are in that moment and it was around the time when the Calais jungle, the refugee camp was in the news a lot. mean it still exists, it's just not in the news as much but it was in the news a lot and so that it tends to be if there's stuff in the field of our experience it will happen and it seemed that this guy was a refugee or an asylum seeker but he didn't name it but it sort of become clear that it was something like that. And I sat down with him on the floor and was just listening to him, listening to his experience and empathizing. And then every now and then he'd get really angry with me. It was like being part of the problem. And it's like, ⁓ okay. And then there'd be, and it was so intense and so tough. ⁓ the audience watching it found it so tough. And afterwards he took off the mask and he'd found it really intense. But that's such an important moment. It's like, ⁓ wow, we've not experienced sitting down with someone that's actually had that experience, but we are, the mask's generating an intense empathy and compassion. And so moments like that always stick with me, the funny ones, the intense ones, the ones where I'm thinking, I don't know what to do here.
Heather Ebanks: Yeah, it just, it feels like almost like therapy for them, but ⁓ intense for you probably. Do you feel like I don't know how to deal with this? Am I trained to, to cope with something as serious as this, but yeah.
Steve Chapman: Yeah. No, I mean, I'm very confident with boundaries in the mask workshop and I've done lots of therapeutic training and I know I'm very clear on the boundary between therapeutic and therapy, but that doesn't mean that it could tip into that. And I'm clear with people coming beforehand. It's like, this is fun and intense and playful and it can get you in touch with stuff. So if you have, if you know you have unresolved trauma or something like that, maybe speak to me beforehand. But quite often I'm never thinking I don't know what to do with this or I'm not qualified for it. I'm often thinking I'm not sure what to do and I am really influenced and trained a lot in Gestalt psychology and really in those moments I'll just say to the mask, I don't know what to do, I don't know to do now, how's that for you? And it's all... I think there's a lot of time creating a safe enough space and I think the group size contributes to that as well. And people have time, we have space to process. If we've done something that's been really intense, we can take breaks and things like that. That's not to say it could never. It could never like get to an edge for someone or for me. But I always say to people that go when you want, leave when you want, participate as much or as little as you want. If you get to the end of the day and you've not even put on a mask, brilliant, that's fine. You're still participating. And only once someone got to the first break and said, this isn't for me, they left. And it's like, great. I sort of like to engage with participants as adults. It's like, I can take... care of you as much as you can take care of yourself. I'm not in your brain. I'm not your therapist. ⁓ So if stuff's feeling too much, then take responsibility for that and step away.
Heather Ebanks: Yeah, it sounds like a good, experience all around anyway, regards to wearing a mask and, and it's, yeah, it sounds like a great session that you're having and I hope you keep on doing it sounds really good.
Steve Chapman: Yeah, there's two or three a year that I do and they're always uniquely different.
Heather Ebanks: So studio draw is that physical draw that's in your desk. messy part of your life that nobody wants to see or you don't want anyone to know about. So I'm going to ask a few questions about you as a creative. it's a bit lighthearted.
Steve Chapman: Mm, I like that.
Heather Ebanks: someone's just opened your studio drawer. What's the most unexpected item? we're gonna find inside.
Steve Chapman: I'm not in my studio now, but I can picture the drawer. I think there are those interdental toothpick things. Which, yeah, I mean, I've never used them in the studio. I don't know why they're there. But they're in the drawer right next to, I've got two desks in the studio, in there. And I don't know, there's probably some other stuff in there like that. Oh, there's an old CBD oil that's gone off.
Heather Ebanks: Got a floss. So it's time for a clear out.
Steve Chapman: Yeah, yeah, think, but stuff like that. I think the bit is not in a drawer, but there's some really old paintings that I don't like. it's like, I don't want people to rifle through them because I don't like them. I only want them to see the stuff that I like. So I'd be more, I'd be more embarrassed by those and feel the need to explain those.
Heather Ebanks: what is your favourite way to break out a creative rut?
Steve Chapman: I think, and it doesn't ⁓ good at the time, but I think you have to absolutely love the creative rut, love it so much, like really embrace it. And it's like, okay, creative rut, I'm not going to try and get out of it. I'm just going to study it and be curious about it. And there's the ⁓ philosophy, which is the obstacle is the path. ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ I think you have to absolutely the creative rut, love it so much, like really embrace it. okay, creative rut, I'm not going to try and get out of it. I'm just going to study it and be curious about it. And there's the ⁓ Buddhist philosophy, which is the obstacle is the path. And it's... the idea of move towards the thing you're trying to get away from. And absolutely, it's not like, oh, I'm in a creative rut, wonderful, I'm enjoying it. It's painful and it's horrible the idea of move towards the thing you're trying to get away from. And absolutely, it's not like, oh, I'm in a creative rut, wonderful, I'm enjoying it. It's painful and it's horrible and it can lead into a spiral of other stuff. I speak about it on an episode of the podcast, I think, as in that rut once, and this is a tiny example. And... When I'm in that rut, it's like time, my relationship with time changes. becomes time drags and I'm trying to find things to do and it's just horrible. And I get bored quite easily. I was sitting in my studio and time was dragging. I wasn't feeling great and I was utterly bored. And it's like, I don't know what to do. And I thought, what would happen if I loved my boredom so much? I loved it so much that I couldn't help but paint it. And so I ended up just improvising a painting and ended up with a painting of this big blue cat, ominous blue cat with massive words on it saying, yeah, saying, I am very bored.
Heather Ebanks: I know the one, yeah.
Steve Chapman: and then before I realized it's like ⁓ two hours have gone I'm not bored anymore by moving towards that boredom I've done that and then that went on that's become a best-selling t-shirt since then so I think that thing of okay I'm in a rut right the rut is as important it's everything else I don't like it I don't want to be here but The more I try to get out of it, for me, the harder it becomes. It's like, I need to move with it. I need to do Tai Chi with the rat rather than boxing.
Heather Ebanks: Wonderful. Another question for you in StudioDraw. What's the most hilarious wrong assumption someone's made about what you do?
Steve Chapman: All right. I mean, there's the one I've already mentioned where people come to the mask workshop thinking it's like an arts and crafts mask making workshop. I really don't know. That's a really interesting question, because one of the things I struggle with most is a fear of being misunderstood. I don't know if it's a hilarious assumption, quite. I remember people thinking that I'm really aloof or above them or something like that and it is just it's part of my wiring that I'm probably just like panicking in a moment trying to work out how to interact with someone. ⁓ So I think that may be thinking like that's how I am. I think a lot of people will have an assumption around success as an artist, which is purely based on the numbers of followers and stuff like that, but it doesn't make any difference. People say, well, how do you make consistent money as an artist? It's like, why are you asking me? I have no idea.
Heather Ebanks: What is the most ridiculous thing in your studio workspace ⁓ and why is it there?
Steve Chapman: I I'm everything, the entire spaces. I mean, I've got a six foot three mannequin with a massive... head mask that I made that stands in the corner of the studio that's holding a cowboy hat that I wore, wearing a cowboy hat that I wore for an exhibition and a guitar that I painted and has these gloves on its hands and that's just in the corner of the studio because I didn't have anywhere to keep it and wanted to get rid of it but it's a striking thing and people walk past and look in the window of my studio and it's the first thing they see. and it takes up so much room, but I love ⁓ being there. He's called Len. ⁓ love Len being there. And Len actually was a mask that I made to help me experiment with movement and dancing. It's like, ⁓ do I feel ⁓ comfortable? And I'm tall and long, and so I've always been very ⁓ of how much space I take up. And I thought, ⁓ Len was a character that I used to draw. I Len doesn't care. Len would just move in whatever way he wants, however ridiculous it is. So I made the massive mask of Len and then did some videos of Len dancing. And then Len went to a festival and led a dance class in a tent. I was doing this crazy dancing. And it's like, I couldn't do that, but Len could. So Len has some important memories for me.
Heather Ebanks: Cool. That's the last question of StudioDraw. ⁓ yeah, just remembered. ⁓ Tell me about your crow friend.
Steve Chapman: I like that. You might see the jackdaws eating their lunch there. ⁓ But now the crow friend, ⁓ when I here, I ended up here accident in southwest London, ⁓ but I'm quite close to the Thames. And I had my studio, I used to spend quite a bit of time just sitting by the Thames painting and walking up and down there a lot. And I walk there every day now to my studio in Kingston. And I just, I've always been interested in creatures. I find creatures much more easy to interact with than humans. And there's just these two crows that were there and they'd be there all the time. And they seemed maybe slightly interested in me. So I'd stop and I'd sit down and throw them some monkey nuts because shelled nuts are prized in the COVID world. And then one of them, there's a pair, I think they're a breeding pair, kept coming closer and closer. And then eventually, then it became an obsession. I'd go and see them every day. I put out my hand and then she came and took a monkey nut from my hand. And then eventually now, when I walk past the river, she's either waiting for me or I call her. I just go, and she comes swooping down, jumps on my lap and eats monkey nuts out of my hand. And it's lovely because Corvids have got a brilliant memory for people. That's why you should never be mean to a crow, because it will then pursue you for the rest of your life. And they teach the next generation as well. They pass on those things. So, that's my crow friend, and she's inspired a number of paintings and bits of artwork. And it's just something so magical and I don't know, wonderful about that. It's I... I will never have any projections with the crow like she's not there. I won't be thinking, what have I done to offend her? Did I say something bad or like when she sits on my lap, it's not that she loves me. It's we have a symbiotic relationship in which I provide her food. So I and I've known her for two years now and I love that. I'll walk along and see her and I'm not allowed to have pets in my flat. So and she's not a pet, but we have a she's my friend. And then I have the jackdaws, the jackdaws and crows that come to the window every day. And it's a little wag tail that comes to the window. I call them the window silk gang. but you can find those ⁓ little environments in lots of places, in a concrete environment, there'll be a crow or something there.
Heather Ebanks: Steve, thank you for sharing your story with me. ⁓ If anyone to reach out to you and ⁓ you in your business, how would they do that?
Steve Chapman: This is the bit I'm always rubbish at. ⁓ on Instagram or on all social media I'm Steve Xoh which is Steve XOH. you can find me on there and if you want to see my work and stuff or get in touch you can send me a message there. ⁓ website which is canscorpionsmoke.com or one word so can scorpionsmoke there's only one or you can just type that into Google it doesn't go I'm normally the number one hit and then you get stuff about smoking scorpions to get high and things like that and the podcast is called creative adventures an accidental podcast so any of those are ways of ways of getting in contact
Heather Ebanks: Thank you, Steve.
Steve Chapman: No, thank you so much for having me. It's one of those moments where time has just flown by.
