speaker-0: Welcome to the Morrison Global Podcast, the show that brings you inspiring conversations from around the world. Along the way, we'll dive into the latest market insights, explore human topics like well-being and personal growth, and uncover trends shaping the accounting and finance industry. Whether you're looking to stay ahead in your field, gain fresh perspectives, or simply connect with stories that inspire, you're in the right place. So join us as we ignite change and connect communities across the globe. Welcome to Conversations With, brought to you by Morrison Global, where we sit down with people shaping the future of our profession. Today we are tackling something almost every firm in the association is quietly wrestling with succession. Not the kind that lives in a binder and gets dusted off once a year, but the kind that decides whether your clients stay. Whether your best people stick around, and whether the next generation actually want the seat you are trying to hand them. My guests today are Una O'Reilly and Marie Claire McGreevy, co-founders of Mel. Between them, they bring well over three decades of experience building high-performing, multi-generational teams, including their years, leading the commercial side of ICC Belfast, Waterfront Hall, and Ulster Hall. Where they grew revenue, built an award-winning brand, and did it with a team spanning several generations of talent themselves. These days, they work with leaders across professional services on exactly what we are digging into today: the myths around generational leadership, whether rainmaking is a gift or a system, and where accountability tips into micromanagement. Una, Marie Claire, welcome to the show. How are you today?
speaker-1: Good, we are great. Thank you so much.
speaker-2: Delighted to be here.
speaker-0: Wonderful. So let's get started. Most firms approach intergenerational leadership as a generational diversity problem. Boomer, Gen X, Millennial, Gen Z, each with their own rules and beliefs around how things should be done. You have both built and inherited teams across three or four generations. So tell us, what is the single biggest myth you would want to dismantle here? And what does the reality actually look like for a firm trying to manage this well?
speaker-2: I think one of the biggest myths is that the generation before the generation after that they don't know what they're doing, that it's not as good. And very much it's about people's worldview. It's how they were brought up. Well, let's take the telephone as an example. If you're going to say to somebody who is a young millennial or Gen Z, you know, how do you use a phone? They lift the phone up, they don't hold it to their ear. Or as a Gen X, absolutely will use a phone by lifting it to your ear. And it's one of the big myths that as a Jen actually, why don't you just phone them instead of emailing back and forward? But that's not the communication that those people were actually brought up with. So it's a how do you actually break down those barriers? And a lot of the time it's about the leadership and about the expectation and actually setting out, here's how we communicate in this situation, what's the best? Because if you've never done it before, you don't actually know. Wait a Gen Z who the desk phone rang and she had no idea. She goes, ⁓ that was ringing. And We were like, but yeah, well, did you lift it? No, no. But it was ringing. And it was incredible because she's a really smart girl, had absolutely all the talent in the world, but looked at the phone like it was a completely strange animal. And I think the piece here is not to jump in and think, Well, I don't understand. Actually take a step back. And if back in the day you'd been given a telegram, like you'd be looking going, What what is this? So just realize the world moves on.
speaker-0: Absolutely. That mindset shift matters most when it comes to succession, where firms make a similar mistake. So succession is often treated as a single event, like a handover or a five year plan. But in your opinion, what does succession thinking look like to you when it's actually embedded in day-to-day leadership? And what's the cost to firms that ignore this and stick with this single event view?
speaker-1: For the firms that do it really well, it's actually something that they are not scared of. So at the very top organizational level, so for the likes of the C suite, they're actually recognizing that they're not, unfortunately, going to be in that position forever. They're not going to be in the firm forever. And it's how do they have those conversations and recognize that sometimes that'll mean actually stepping back, being gracious and actually giving others the opportunity to step up because it's not as though only one person can be adored by the clients can be the head of all the client relationships. That's actually more damaging for the business in the long run. But if they have a conscious decision to make sure that they're engaging the team beyond just themselves in those client relationships, it's really good. And in terms of on a practical level, it's even really simple things around actually having a cadence towards succession planning. So having it on the agenda at leadership meetings, having it on the agenda at the broader organizational meetings, be that quarterly team meeting or a staff off site, talking about, okay, we always want to know, okay, what's the next quarter got in store? What's the next year got in store? But what is the next 10 years got in store for an organization? Because if people know, then they feel a sense of security. So they're going to then actually work towards that vision of success if it's really clear in an organization. But on a really practical level, it seems having a really clear and organized naming convention. For your documents, because if you come into an organization and you try to take on a new position or you're brand new to the organization and you've just been left a dumpster fire, you're set up to feel from day one. So in terms of succession planning, if those client relationships are really seamless, it's actually all of the things that go on underneath that underpin the client relationship at the top of the pyramid, if you like. But actually all of those things that sit beneath it are what make it work because everyone thinks, ⁓ It's just making sure that you introduce the client to someone else and that'll be our succession planning. And clients that we have will be great. They'll stay with us forever and we'll get a few new ones along the way. And that's a very sheltered view of what succession planning will look like. Obviously, the market will change, the macro environmental factors will change, there'll be micro environmental factors that'll change. And you want to make sure that you're adapting and you have the systems and processes that underpin everything along the way so that whenever something big does happen and you can't control it and it's completely out of your control. You're a bit more robust and prepared in terms of what you're actually going to do to resolve that because it's not as though I can just say, well, I have these 10, 20, 50 relationships. I'm going to hand them over directly to you because we're all independent people. We all want to make our own decisions. It's not as though if I just say to you, well, here's these relationships, they're now yours. You're going to think, no, I want to build up my own relationships. I want to make my own decisions, have my own autonomy. But it's actually making sure that it's how people are treated in terms of looked after by the firm is the same across the board, even if it's a different relationship over time or it's a different relationship with within the client's team as well.
speaker-2: I think, Georgie, just to take on that, it's to actually name it and be intentional. So often we've worked with firms and there's managing partner, a equity partner team who have done a fantastic job growing their business and they in their back of the minds know that someday they'd like to spend more time in the golf course, but their ego is well, I'll live forever. Do you know it'll not happen to me and all of a sudden and we've witnessed it, people drop dead and They haven't put a plan in place and it's a scramble, as Marie Claire says, but the naming convention and even just having the conversation that this is intentional succession, this is intentional in what we're doing. And it helps from our career progression perspective as well, that people can see what's the map for me, what do I need? What skills do I need? And what skills do I need? Because let's face it, things are changing at a rate of not. So we're not sure. But what we do know is that you have to have an open mind and you have to have a growth mindset. To be able to take on the uncertainty as opposed to have it nailed down in twenty thirty, I know I'll definitely need this.
speaker-0: Well, yeah, I think that's really interesting. It's just because you name it doesn't mean it's immediate. And I think also when you think about investing into your staff, and one of the most biggest strengths of a firm is that consistency of staff. If your staff know that they're part of the bigger picture and the future, you know, that must be make them feel incredibly secure and stable and also want to create that strategy, that future for the firm as well, if they know that there is a succession plan that is taking place. And I think something else I was reflecting on when you were talking as well is, you know, in your first, it's the cultural side of succession planning, which is what you kind of talked about. That's probably the quieter in parallel to that very sort of obvious, you know, this is our succession plan. But then also as a managing partner, being aware of some of the cultural things that you need to support, you know, your staff with as you kind of grow together.
speaker-2: It starts now, Georgie. It's not something for down the future. It's starting those conversations now.
speaker-1: Admittedly, it's easier to ignore it, absolutely, because it's not something that's pressing. It's not as though you have a deadline looming either that's been set by the firm, that's been set by, you know, your compliance efforts, it's been set by your client. It's actually something that you need to do intentionally. So it's carving out that time and making sure that the senior leadership team, because it really sits with them in order for them to cascade that down throughout the organization, but it's making sure that there's time, be that even five percent of time focusing the year towards okay, the what if. So it's hard sometimes for acquaintance to kind of deal in the abstract rather than just definitive. But it's really important to actually say, okay, well, what if, and have some kind of scenario planning. So be that looking ahead towards the future to understand what are the implications of scenario A, scenario B, scenario C. So planning for the best case outcomes, but also having an understanding of, okay, what if it doesn't go so well and what if it actually doesn't go the way that we anticipate it to? What are our options here? Because if you have options, makes it easier when the time comes for succession planning. Whereas if you don't recognize it, don't name it, don't actually work towards it, it's going to be a lot harder to enact any type of plan and you'll just end up having to be reactive rather than being really proactive and in the long term actually getting those successful commercial outcomes, passing on the business to either the generation coming beneath you or whatever your succession plan really is, the more options that you have, the better.
speaker-0: I think why this conversation is really important is because when you think about leadership and you think about being a managing partner of a firm, this is probably not something that you are necessarily taught or told about or talk about because you're actually much more in the sort of operational, frontline day-to-day stuff. But actually it's really important to maybe seek support from outside consultants to help you address this because actually it will strengthen your business sort of long term.
speaker-2: But it belongs to you to know. Like we work with organizations and you can't outsource this. As the leadership team, you have to own it. You can get support by all means, but you must own it, you must execute it and you must make it happen. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's a very good point. So when we think about handovers, a lot of that comes down to who owns the client relationship. And this brings us on to rainmaking. It's a term we hear constantly, and it's often described as something almost mystical. You either have it or you don't. Could you explain a little bit more about what that term actually means?
speaker-2: Rainmaking effectively means sales, but people hate to use the word sales. It's been disguised as business development. It's been disguised as customer acquisition. But honestly, the S word is possibly one of the worst words in the corporate world. Nobody wants to be seen as a salesperson. And rain making's really that. It's about going out and winning clients. It's about keeping the clients that you've got. And it's about growing the client base. And grow them from within the clients that you have already.
speaker-0: So given that senior partners have built their entire career on being the natural relationship builder, and you've obviously worked with firms across the broad spectrum of professional services, is rainmaking a gift or is it a system? And if it is a system, why are so few firms treating it like one?
speaker-2: Is it a gift? There's people that are probably predisposed and it's part of their identity. And they think, Do you know what? I'm good at winning clients. And lo and behold, if you think you're good at winning clients, like Henry Ford, if you think you can, you can. You think you can't, you can't. So it's very much there's one that's an identity piece, which is Am I good at this, am I not? If you're talking yourself out of it, it makes it very, very hard. But what you can do, and there's been so many studies done, is that it can be taught, it is a system, it is a habit. I think the piece for us and where we have looked at it is let's face it, if you were an accountant, you typically were really good at maths. You were a smart kid in school. You may have been captaining the football team, you may not have, but you were definitely really good at maths to have got yourself to be an accountant. And a lot of the time technically brilliant. And it's two or three promotions in before all of a sudden you have to do the dreaded client acquisition, business development, reinmaking, anything but the S word. So really it's actually taken, if you were to go after a client, you can actually break down each section of it, everything from building awareness, which is going out to your networking events, having conversations right through to how you pitch to a client. It can absolutely be systemized, but you also then need people's behaviors to follow the system and to understand how it works within the context of your firm. So what's the case studies that you might never put in this on your website? Well, it's the internal lore. You know, the story about where you really help somebody from a tax perspective or their business was in difficulty and you were able to restructure it. It's the conversations that you have internally that you're able to have quietly with another client without giving any names away, but you're never putting it in your website. For us, it's one of the big things. We've actually developed a software platform and a tool to do it to systemize each bit, because so many people were thinking, ⁓ it's a dark art. It's a bit like saying to somebody accounts payable. It's a dark art. It's a system and a process. Technically speaking you could guess it, but it's how you actually put that together. So
speaker-0: If we turn our attention from individual rainmakers to the firm as a whole, you spend your weeks inside accounting and professional services firms. So what's the most common quiet pipeline killer you see? Something that on the surface looks like operational efficiency or good professional restraint, but actually it's strangling the firm's ability to generate revenue and leadership has no idea that it's happening.
speaker-2: The piece that we really see a lot of the time is not being responsive. The opportunity from cross-selling, a lot of the time it looks like it looks like more hassle than it's worth. And people actually think, I'm getting this piece of advisory work through the work in front of me. And where it's killing pipeline is at the very outset, that opportunity that if you look more as a firm wine and a holistic approach and you looked at the client from a holistic approach, you could say, actually, here's more opportunities within that. We've had conversations with firms and they're like, but I'm not sure if Georgie and the tax team. I'm not sure but her working with my client. And we're very quick to say, well, if it's not Georgie working with your client, it's your competitor's tax person working. So that's a wedge to break in from a I suppose from a competition perspective. You get a new chief financial officer in and all of a sudden they decide to go out to tender for their audit and for their advisory work. And you're in a tender process that you didn't realise you were ever going to be and they've already got four or five years experience doing a slither of work. So it's really important. I think one of the big things in pipeline is to actually realise that there's potentially a bigger opportunity than what you've actually got in front of you.
speaker-1: One of the things that we'll sometimes talk about is that you're either an advocate or an assassin. And an advocate doesn't need to be that you will go out in the firm's branded clothing or stand with a sandwich board, you know, going through the town hall saying how great the firm is, but it's actually how you would recommend colleagues, your understanding of the work that the firm does as a whole, the clients that you serve. So it's actually knowing, okay, these are the clients that we have right across the spectrum, not just the ones that I look after and I make sure that I only myself and my team are the ones having the communication with them. It's actually being open to them, making that space in the meetings and offering for colleagues to come along. If you can see that cross-selling relationship, so it's having a bit of a longer sight rather than just that short-sightedness to say, you know, these are my clients and I'm doing this work and going to be finished on this date. Equally, as an advocate doesn't need to be someone who is doing the full PR job for the organization. An assassin could be just someone that is doing those micro Behaviors on a daily basis that chip away at the overall potential of the firm over time because they're really focused on just what they're doing in their shiloed environment rather than like going to say, is there an opportunity for the firm? Is there an opportunity to bring someone else along, do a client meeting, bring someone else along just to understand, okay, well, if there's changes in the client's environment, they might have had experience either from a previous role or previous industry, just making sure that you're Building up that rich in person context because there's loads we can do online. You know, you could research every organization to the nth degree that you're working with and make sure that everyone knows okay, who are all our key stakeholders. But if realistically you find out that someone that sits two desks down that you've never spoken to is a really good friend of one of the clients, or they worked with them previously, they got along really well, worked to had a really great professional relationship on a different project, that type of intel. can't be replicated. It's not as though you can train an AI model to understand that immediately. So it's having those conversations, looking for opportunities and making sure that you're thinking not just today's work, but tomorrow's pipeline.
speaker-0: Thinking, like you say, as a collective, and that's something you know, probably a conversation for a different time, but we've met with members before and they talk about the culture of their firm, having a shared purpose, having shared values. And then when you all work together and you meet with a client and you can sort of share the team that is beyond you and the work you do, you know, that's really appealing to clients to know that there is this sort of breadth of expertise across a team. So if we think about blind spots. and how that impacts or affects leadership. Accountability-based leadership is core to a lot of the work that you do, but the criticism people make of it is that it can tip into micromanagement. So from the inside, where does accountability end and micromanagement begin?
speaker-1: I do think that this is a difficult one because for organizations and leaders, so leaders want to set people really clear tasks, expectations. And people are like, Do you know what? We've worked with a lot of teams and we'll do kind of an introspective piece on how do you like to be managed, how do you like to receive feedback from your line manager and so forth. And they'll say, I like really clear expectations. I like to be told exactly what to do, but one thing I don't want is someone checking in on me every day, it's like, well, how do you strike that balance? Because on one hand, you want to be have complete autonomy over your work, but on the other hand, you want to be told exactly what to do. So those two things actually can't really coexist in perfect harmony at all times. So I think it's important from an organizational level to say, right, we're all working towards one unified vision of success, be that a revenue target or a specific outcome for the year ahead. And then each person has their own understanding of how they play into that, be that say from a more junior team member or a client manager role, that they know, okay, this is the core work that I need to achieve in terms of technical work. And then above and beyond that in terms of business development targets, it's origination of X amount of new opportunities. I need to represent the firm at X amount of networking events, things like that. So they have a really clear understanding of that so that they can Porsche correct themselves and tap into the leadership team or their manager as needed. But it's a two-way street. And I think sometimes people get aggrieved and feel as though they're being micromanaged, but they're actually not doing enough in terms of that communication back to their manager or their leadership team to say, This is what I've achieved in the week. This is what I'm working on. Is there anything more or less or different that I should be doing to make sure that expectations are aligned here? So oftentimes it's just a misalignment in terms of expectations and it's hard to have hard conversations. Like a lot of things, it's easier to do nothing than to address issues head on and tackle them. But it's actually making sure that you have a system and a process like a lot of things to make sure that it works. So if you have a way of checking in, be that at the start of the week, whether you're a remote team, an in-person team, to say this is what we're working on. If we got nothing else done this week, this is the priority. And then above and beyond that, you're the three, five, ten things that we could all achieve. And if anyone needs support at any time, do shout. But I think obviously, you know, in professional services particularly, people are typically really high achievers. So they don't want to put their hand up and say, I'm absolutely swamped with the client work. You know, I'm actually not going to get to project A or project B, but make sure that you're allowing yourself that time to get your work done, do it to a really high standard, but also have that little bit of flexibility so that if something comes in unexpected, you can look at it, or you can make sure that you're looking after yourself holistically. So be that making time for lunch, making time to actually get a breath of fresh air during the day as well. So you can more effectively manage your workload and stresses realistically that come with life beyond work too.
speaker-0: Yes, absolutely. And if I think about leadership and communication, it is dynamic as well, isn't it? And it's creating a safe environment where people can seek more management if that's what they need, but also have that independence if that's how they feel that they can manage their workload. So if I zoom out now from style to substance for a moment, you've both worked with leaders at the very top of their fields and you've coached people for whom it was their first foray into leadership. Can high performance leadership be learned, or do you actually need to be a certain type of person to begin with?
speaker-2: So leadership is one hundred percent a practice. It's not a gift from on high. Leadership is something you practice. And some people have been practicing it from they were on a sports field when they were 10 years of age, right through. ⁓ but it's very much a practice and it's how you manage that team. There was a survey done of ten thousand, they're on the cusp of hit and see. So real high performers. And the question was about retention, why they actually stayed with a company or left to go to another one. And the number one reason that people actually stayed with an organization was that they worked for a leader they trusted, admired, and respect. They didn't have to like them, but they did have to respect them. And that was huge. And I think one of the pieces from a leadership perspective, if you take a step back and say, would I respect, do I trust this person? Like, do I genuinely trust them? And do they admire them, not just for their technical ability, but their ability to bring people with them? Because when you get to that, managing partner level, your job now is to make sure that everybody within the team is able to deliver to the best that they can. It's no longer about that single operator. It's about creating the right environment for everybody to step forward. So leadership's something you practice. And you know what? There's days when you're not as good as others. There's days when practice wasn't great this day. You know, you flip, you reverted back to being a red or a blue or whatever colour diagnostic you've been, but you went to type and it can be tricky. But it's very much practice.
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. It's like that old adage, isn't it? It's how you make someone feel, not necessarily what you do. And I think you're right. If there is a sense of trust and respect, you feel safe. And I think you're more able to reach your full potential. So if I come to my final question, every leader has a moment where it would have been easier to look away a tough conversation, a misnumber, a client walking, a personal loss. What does a high performance leader actually do in those moments? And can each of you maybe share one of your own experiences?
speaker-2: I think one of the things, the biggest, is self-awareness. I'll take you back to earlier in my career. I, as is the way, I had worked in sales and was successful. And what happens is when you're successful in the corporate work world, you're rewarded with more work. So I got a promotion and I was now managing a team of five people. As far as I was concerned, everything was going fantastic. We were hitting target. Everybody was making commission, life was good. And the organization I worked for brought in a consultant to do a 360 degree feedback. And I'm not sure if you've participated in this, but it basically is your your line manager, your manager, your peers, and your direct reports, fill in a full survey, everything with your communication style, your empathy, your drive. As far as I was concerned, I was coming out all stars. And the consultant gave me my document and I read it and I was raging. And when I say raging, I had failed miserably. ⁓ my goodness, I was a tyrant. It was, I pushed for the numbers. It was my way or the highway. I didn't listen. ⁓ I had approximately zero empathy. It was a really harsh read. And the consultant could say I was quite taken back. And like my first reaction was, Well, do you know what? See this, you know, I could do no more for them. But he asked me a question and he said, You know, what percentage do you work? Like what do you give to work? And I says, I'm giving it the big one. I'm a hundred, a hundred and ten percent. And he said, What about your team? I was them, fifty or sixty at best. And he said, you know, imagine you could get each of them to be ten percent better. He goes, That's fifty percent more. He goes, That's you. You could do ninety percent and you'd still be at a hundred and forty percent in terms of your team. It was a complete penny drop moment for me that I suddenly realized that me pushing so hard and Me driving the numbers and not actually creating the environment for everybody to be able to give more than 60% was a me thing. So for me, I think the big piece is actually self-awareness. And sometimes you need a breeze block to the side of the head to let you see, right? Hold a mirror up high. And I think that for me is a big thing from a leadership is if you want a high performing team, you have to be a high performing leader and you must have self-awareness as to where your downfall is.
speaker-1: The best way that I can probably explain mine is through the phrase, treat others as you would like to be treated. That is actually quite untrue for leadership because I know from one of the things that I've been guilty of in the past is if I'm working on a project or if I am just really getting on with things, I don't like to be checked in on. I don't really like to get feedback midway through a project. I prefer it all to just come at once and rather someone had full context, full overview, and not really get that, you know, intermittent. project piece in terms of saying you're doing a good job, why not try this? Why not try that? I'd rather get the full, complete picture as close to finish as possible and then say, right, what do we need to change, tweak, edit? And then just to make it perfect, feedback that I got was other people felt as though their work wasn't being recognized or the you know the work that they were doing every single day and the small habits that they were kind of compounding every single day was just going unnoticed because they thought because I wasn't addressing it and because I wasn't giving feedback at the time in real time. That it was just going quite unnoticed. So they were disenfranchised because they were thinking, well, I'm gonna put all this effort in, and then at the end it's gonna be a mad scramble to get things tweaked, edited, changed, whatever the case was. Because that's the way I like to do it. But just because that's the way I like to do it, that's actually doesn't mean it's the right way. Because the strength of having a team that like to do things differently is that people approach projects differently, people see things from different angles, people come with different suggestions. So that's you can't just have the good parts of having a diverse team. You actually have to embrace all of having a diverse team. So sometimes that's actually a reminder to myself to say, okay, look out for those opportunities, look out for those small glimmers of the great work being done and make sure that you're celebrating it. So it's not just saying you're doing a great job for the sake of doing a great job because that's table stakes. That's what everyone wants to be doing. But it's actually looking for okay, where has this person gone above and beyond in a unique way or Done something that's made the project more efficient or more effective, kind of in the overall delivery. So one for me to really learn and work on because it's not something that comes naturally. And I think that's back to your point, Duda, on leadership. It doesn't necessarily just come naturally. It is something that you have to practice, particularly if you want to act in a certain way and you want to make sure that you're embracing the strengths of the wider team and multi-generational team who have come from different educational backgrounds, different social backgrounds and obviously different generational backgrounds too. So they all have different expectations and varying expectations of the workplace and what that will look like in terms of practice reward and all of, you know, how can you treat everyone equally without making sure that you're being attuned to their individual nuances too. It's definitely a hard one, but it's as long as you're intentionally putting time and effort into it every day, you're definitely doing more than someone who just thinks, I'm a great leader because Whenever I was sixteen I kept on the football team. Doesn't really immediately translate to a corporate setting twenty, thirty years later.
speaker-0: And that's it. And I think a lot of that comes down to time, doesn't it? And it's making time to reflect on yourself and how you're operating, but also time to then step back and look at your team because they're all going to bring different parts of your personality and your leadership style out. And I think, you know, taking those moments just to sort of check in personally and with the group, you know, will only bring great things. Una Mary Claire, thank you so much, both of you, for being so generous with your experience and so honest about what this actually takes. I think this will be a conversation that a lot of our listeners will sit with. Succession is actively owned rather than assumed, and intergenerational leadership should be designed rather than left to chance. And the uncomfortable truth that things keeping the lights on today might be exactly what's stopping, you know, a firm being ready for tomorrow. So Thank you both ever so much for sharing your experiences and your guidance. And I really look forward to continuing these conversations. I know you're contributing to some of our thought leadership, pieces which we really look forward to sharing with our members. So thank you both. And we will look forward to seeing you next time on Conversations With. Thank you for listening. Thank you for tuning in to the Morrison Global podcast. We hope today's episode sparked new ideas, broadened your thinking, and offered a fresh perspective. Don't forget to subscribe, share, and stay with us as we continue exploring the insights and stories shaping our world. Until next time, stay curious, stay inspired, and keep the conversations going.
speaker-1: Good, we are great. Thank you so much.
speaker-2: Delighted to be here.
speaker-0: Wonderful. So let's get started. Most firms approach intergenerational leadership as a generational diversity problem. Boomer, Gen X, Millennial, Gen Z, each with their own rules and beliefs around how things should be done. You have both built and inherited teams across three or four generations. So tell us, what is the single biggest myth you would want to dismantle here? And what does the reality actually look like for a firm trying to manage this well?
speaker-2: I think one of the biggest myths is that the generation before the generation after that they don't know what they're doing, that it's not as good. And very much it's about people's worldview. It's how they were brought up. Well, let's take the telephone as an example. If you're going to say to somebody who is a young millennial or Gen Z, you know, how do you use a phone? They lift the phone up, they don't hold it to their ear. Or as a Gen X, absolutely will use a phone by lifting it to your ear. And it's one of the big myths that as a Jen actually, why don't you just phone them instead of emailing back and forward? But that's not the communication that those people were actually brought up with. So it's a how do you actually break down those barriers? And a lot of the time it's about the leadership and about the expectation and actually setting out, here's how we communicate in this situation, what's the best? Because if you've never done it before, you don't actually know. Wait a Gen Z who the desk phone rang and she had no idea. She goes, ⁓ that was ringing. And We were like, but yeah, well, did you lift it? No, no. But it was ringing. And it was incredible because she's a really smart girl, had absolutely all the talent in the world, but looked at the phone like it was a completely strange animal. And I think the piece here is not to jump in and think, Well, I don't understand. Actually take a step back. And if back in the day you'd been given a telegram, like you'd be looking going, What what is this? So just realize the world moves on.
speaker-0: Absolutely. That mindset shift matters most when it comes to succession, where firms make a similar mistake. So succession is often treated as a single event, like a handover or a five year plan. But in your opinion, what does succession thinking look like to you when it's actually embedded in day-to-day leadership? And what's the cost to firms that ignore this and stick with this single event view?
speaker-1: For the firms that do it really well, it's actually something that they are not scared of. So at the very top organizational level, so for the likes of the C suite, they're actually recognizing that they're not, unfortunately, going to be in that position forever. They're not going to be in the firm forever. And it's how do they have those conversations and recognize that sometimes that'll mean actually stepping back, being gracious and actually giving others the opportunity to step up because it's not as though only one person can be adored by the clients can be the head of all the client relationships. That's actually more damaging for the business in the long run. But if they have a conscious decision to make sure that they're engaging the team beyond just themselves in those client relationships, it's really good. And in terms of on a practical level, it's even really simple things around actually having a cadence towards succession planning. So having it on the agenda at leadership meetings, having it on the agenda at the broader organizational meetings, be that quarterly team meeting or a staff off site, talking about, okay, we always want to know, okay, what's the next quarter got in store? What's the next year got in store? But what is the next 10 years got in store for an organization? Because if people know, then they feel a sense of security. So they're going to then actually work towards that vision of success if it's really clear in an organization. But on a really practical level, it seems having a really clear and organized naming convention. For your documents, because if you come into an organization and you try to take on a new position or you're brand new to the organization and you've just been left a dumpster fire, you're set up to feel from day one. So in terms of succession planning, if those client relationships are really seamless, it's actually all of the things that go on underneath that underpin the client relationship at the top of the pyramid, if you like. But actually all of those things that sit beneath it are what make it work because everyone thinks, ⁓ It's just making sure that you introduce the client to someone else and that'll be our succession planning. And clients that we have will be great. They'll stay with us forever and we'll get a few new ones along the way. And that's a very sheltered view of what succession planning will look like. Obviously, the market will change, the macro environmental factors will change, there'll be micro environmental factors that'll change. And you want to make sure that you're adapting and you have the systems and processes that underpin everything along the way so that whenever something big does happen and you can't control it and it's completely out of your control. You're a bit more robust and prepared in terms of what you're actually going to do to resolve that because it's not as though I can just say, well, I have these 10, 20, 50 relationships. I'm going to hand them over directly to you because we're all independent people. We all want to make our own decisions. It's not as though if I just say to you, well, here's these relationships, they're now yours. You're going to think, no, I want to build up my own relationships. I want to make my own decisions, have my own autonomy. But it's actually making sure that it's how people are treated in terms of looked after by the firm is the same across the board, even if it's a different relationship over time or it's a different relationship with within the client's team as well.
speaker-2: I think, Georgie, just to take on that, it's to actually name it and be intentional. So often we've worked with firms and there's managing partner, a equity partner team who have done a fantastic job growing their business and they in their back of the minds know that someday they'd like to spend more time in the golf course, but their ego is well, I'll live forever. Do you know it'll not happen to me and all of a sudden and we've witnessed it, people drop dead and They haven't put a plan in place and it's a scramble, as Marie Claire says, but the naming convention and even just having the conversation that this is intentional succession, this is intentional in what we're doing. And it helps from our career progression perspective as well, that people can see what's the map for me, what do I need? What skills do I need? And what skills do I need? Because let's face it, things are changing at a rate of not. So we're not sure. But what we do know is that you have to have an open mind and you have to have a growth mindset. To be able to take on the uncertainty as opposed to have it nailed down in twenty thirty, I know I'll definitely need this.
speaker-0: Well, yeah, I think that's really interesting. It's just because you name it doesn't mean it's immediate. And I think also when you think about investing into your staff, and one of the most biggest strengths of a firm is that consistency of staff. If your staff know that they're part of the bigger picture and the future, you know, that must be make them feel incredibly secure and stable and also want to create that strategy, that future for the firm as well, if they know that there is a succession plan that is taking place. And I think something else I was reflecting on when you were talking as well is, you know, in your first, it's the cultural side of succession planning, which is what you kind of talked about. That's probably the quieter in parallel to that very sort of obvious, you know, this is our succession plan. But then also as a managing partner, being aware of some of the cultural things that you need to support, you know, your staff with as you kind of grow together.
speaker-2: It starts now, Georgie. It's not something for down the future. It's starting those conversations now.
speaker-1: Admittedly, it's easier to ignore it, absolutely, because it's not something that's pressing. It's not as though you have a deadline looming either that's been set by the firm, that's been set by, you know, your compliance efforts, it's been set by your client. It's actually something that you need to do intentionally. So it's carving out that time and making sure that the senior leadership team, because it really sits with them in order for them to cascade that down throughout the organization, but it's making sure that there's time, be that even five percent of time focusing the year towards okay, the what if. So it's hard sometimes for acquaintance to kind of deal in the abstract rather than just definitive. But it's really important to actually say, okay, well, what if, and have some kind of scenario planning. So be that looking ahead towards the future to understand what are the implications of scenario A, scenario B, scenario C. So planning for the best case outcomes, but also having an understanding of, okay, what if it doesn't go so well and what if it actually doesn't go the way that we anticipate it to? What are our options here? Because if you have options, makes it easier when the time comes for succession planning. Whereas if you don't recognize it, don't name it, don't actually work towards it, it's going to be a lot harder to enact any type of plan and you'll just end up having to be reactive rather than being really proactive and in the long term actually getting those successful commercial outcomes, passing on the business to either the generation coming beneath you or whatever your succession plan really is, the more options that you have, the better.
speaker-0: I think why this conversation is really important is because when you think about leadership and you think about being a managing partner of a firm, this is probably not something that you are necessarily taught or told about or talk about because you're actually much more in the sort of operational, frontline day-to-day stuff. But actually it's really important to maybe seek support from outside consultants to help you address this because actually it will strengthen your business sort of long term.
speaker-2: But it belongs to you to know. Like we work with organizations and you can't outsource this. As the leadership team, you have to own it. You can get support by all means, but you must own it, you must execute it and you must make it happen. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's a very good point. So when we think about handovers, a lot of that comes down to who owns the client relationship. And this brings us on to rainmaking. It's a term we hear constantly, and it's often described as something almost mystical. You either have it or you don't. Could you explain a little bit more about what that term actually means?
speaker-2: Rainmaking effectively means sales, but people hate to use the word sales. It's been disguised as business development. It's been disguised as customer acquisition. But honestly, the S word is possibly one of the worst words in the corporate world. Nobody wants to be seen as a salesperson. And rain making's really that. It's about going out and winning clients. It's about keeping the clients that you've got. And it's about growing the client base. And grow them from within the clients that you have already.
speaker-0: So given that senior partners have built their entire career on being the natural relationship builder, and you've obviously worked with firms across the broad spectrum of professional services, is rainmaking a gift or is it a system? And if it is a system, why are so few firms treating it like one?
speaker-2: Is it a gift? There's people that are probably predisposed and it's part of their identity. And they think, Do you know what? I'm good at winning clients. And lo and behold, if you think you're good at winning clients, like Henry Ford, if you think you can, you can. You think you can't, you can't. So it's very much there's one that's an identity piece, which is Am I good at this, am I not? If you're talking yourself out of it, it makes it very, very hard. But what you can do, and there's been so many studies done, is that it can be taught, it is a system, it is a habit. I think the piece for us and where we have looked at it is let's face it, if you were an accountant, you typically were really good at maths. You were a smart kid in school. You may have been captaining the football team, you may not have, but you were definitely really good at maths to have got yourself to be an accountant. And a lot of the time technically brilliant. And it's two or three promotions in before all of a sudden you have to do the dreaded client acquisition, business development, reinmaking, anything but the S word. So really it's actually taken, if you were to go after a client, you can actually break down each section of it, everything from building awareness, which is going out to your networking events, having conversations right through to how you pitch to a client. It can absolutely be systemized, but you also then need people's behaviors to follow the system and to understand how it works within the context of your firm. So what's the case studies that you might never put in this on your website? Well, it's the internal lore. You know, the story about where you really help somebody from a tax perspective or their business was in difficulty and you were able to restructure it. It's the conversations that you have internally that you're able to have quietly with another client without giving any names away, but you're never putting it in your website. For us, it's one of the big things. We've actually developed a software platform and a tool to do it to systemize each bit, because so many people were thinking, ⁓ it's a dark art. It's a bit like saying to somebody accounts payable. It's a dark art. It's a system and a process. Technically speaking you could guess it, but it's how you actually put that together. So
speaker-0: If we turn our attention from individual rainmakers to the firm as a whole, you spend your weeks inside accounting and professional services firms. So what's the most common quiet pipeline killer you see? Something that on the surface looks like operational efficiency or good professional restraint, but actually it's strangling the firm's ability to generate revenue and leadership has no idea that it's happening.
speaker-2: The piece that we really see a lot of the time is not being responsive. The opportunity from cross-selling, a lot of the time it looks like it looks like more hassle than it's worth. And people actually think, I'm getting this piece of advisory work through the work in front of me. And where it's killing pipeline is at the very outset, that opportunity that if you look more as a firm wine and a holistic approach and you looked at the client from a holistic approach, you could say, actually, here's more opportunities within that. We've had conversations with firms and they're like, but I'm not sure if Georgie and the tax team. I'm not sure but her working with my client. And we're very quick to say, well, if it's not Georgie working with your client, it's your competitor's tax person working. So that's a wedge to break in from a I suppose from a competition perspective. You get a new chief financial officer in and all of a sudden they decide to go out to tender for their audit and for their advisory work. And you're in a tender process that you didn't realise you were ever going to be and they've already got four or five years experience doing a slither of work. So it's really important. I think one of the big things in pipeline is to actually realise that there's potentially a bigger opportunity than what you've actually got in front of you.
speaker-1: One of the things that we'll sometimes talk about is that you're either an advocate or an assassin. And an advocate doesn't need to be that you will go out in the firm's branded clothing or stand with a sandwich board, you know, going through the town hall saying how great the firm is, but it's actually how you would recommend colleagues, your understanding of the work that the firm does as a whole, the clients that you serve. So it's actually knowing, okay, these are the clients that we have right across the spectrum, not just the ones that I look after and I make sure that I only myself and my team are the ones having the communication with them. It's actually being open to them, making that space in the meetings and offering for colleagues to come along. If you can see that cross-selling relationship, so it's having a bit of a longer sight rather than just that short-sightedness to say, you know, these are my clients and I'm doing this work and going to be finished on this date. Equally, as an advocate doesn't need to be someone who is doing the full PR job for the organization. An assassin could be just someone that is doing those micro Behaviors on a daily basis that chip away at the overall potential of the firm over time because they're really focused on just what they're doing in their shiloed environment rather than like going to say, is there an opportunity for the firm? Is there an opportunity to bring someone else along, do a client meeting, bring someone else along just to understand, okay, well, if there's changes in the client's environment, they might have had experience either from a previous role or previous industry, just making sure that you're Building up that rich in person context because there's loads we can do online. You know, you could research every organization to the nth degree that you're working with and make sure that everyone knows okay, who are all our key stakeholders. But if realistically you find out that someone that sits two desks down that you've never spoken to is a really good friend of one of the clients, or they worked with them previously, they got along really well, worked to had a really great professional relationship on a different project, that type of intel. can't be replicated. It's not as though you can train an AI model to understand that immediately. So it's having those conversations, looking for opportunities and making sure that you're thinking not just today's work, but tomorrow's pipeline.
speaker-0: Thinking, like you say, as a collective, and that's something you know, probably a conversation for a different time, but we've met with members before and they talk about the culture of their firm, having a shared purpose, having shared values. And then when you all work together and you meet with a client and you can sort of share the team that is beyond you and the work you do, you know, that's really appealing to clients to know that there is this sort of breadth of expertise across a team. So if we think about blind spots. and how that impacts or affects leadership. Accountability-based leadership is core to a lot of the work that you do, but the criticism people make of it is that it can tip into micromanagement. So from the inside, where does accountability end and micromanagement begin?
speaker-1: I do think that this is a difficult one because for organizations and leaders, so leaders want to set people really clear tasks, expectations. And people are like, Do you know what? We've worked with a lot of teams and we'll do kind of an introspective piece on how do you like to be managed, how do you like to receive feedback from your line manager and so forth. And they'll say, I like really clear expectations. I like to be told exactly what to do, but one thing I don't want is someone checking in on me every day, it's like, well, how do you strike that balance? Because on one hand, you want to be have complete autonomy over your work, but on the other hand, you want to be told exactly what to do. So those two things actually can't really coexist in perfect harmony at all times. So I think it's important from an organizational level to say, right, we're all working towards one unified vision of success, be that a revenue target or a specific outcome for the year ahead. And then each person has their own understanding of how they play into that, be that say from a more junior team member or a client manager role, that they know, okay, this is the core work that I need to achieve in terms of technical work. And then above and beyond that in terms of business development targets, it's origination of X amount of new opportunities. I need to represent the firm at X amount of networking events, things like that. So they have a really clear understanding of that so that they can Porsche correct themselves and tap into the leadership team or their manager as needed. But it's a two-way street. And I think sometimes people get aggrieved and feel as though they're being micromanaged, but they're actually not doing enough in terms of that communication back to their manager or their leadership team to say, This is what I've achieved in the week. This is what I'm working on. Is there anything more or less or different that I should be doing to make sure that expectations are aligned here? So oftentimes it's just a misalignment in terms of expectations and it's hard to have hard conversations. Like a lot of things, it's easier to do nothing than to address issues head on and tackle them. But it's actually making sure that you have a system and a process like a lot of things to make sure that it works. So if you have a way of checking in, be that at the start of the week, whether you're a remote team, an in-person team, to say this is what we're working on. If we got nothing else done this week, this is the priority. And then above and beyond that, you're the three, five, ten things that we could all achieve. And if anyone needs support at any time, do shout. But I think obviously, you know, in professional services particularly, people are typically really high achievers. So they don't want to put their hand up and say, I'm absolutely swamped with the client work. You know, I'm actually not going to get to project A or project B, but make sure that you're allowing yourself that time to get your work done, do it to a really high standard, but also have that little bit of flexibility so that if something comes in unexpected, you can look at it, or you can make sure that you're looking after yourself holistically. So be that making time for lunch, making time to actually get a breath of fresh air during the day as well. So you can more effectively manage your workload and stresses realistically that come with life beyond work too.
speaker-0: Yes, absolutely. And if I think about leadership and communication, it is dynamic as well, isn't it? And it's creating a safe environment where people can seek more management if that's what they need, but also have that independence if that's how they feel that they can manage their workload. So if I zoom out now from style to substance for a moment, you've both worked with leaders at the very top of their fields and you've coached people for whom it was their first foray into leadership. Can high performance leadership be learned, or do you actually need to be a certain type of person to begin with?
speaker-2: So leadership is one hundred percent a practice. It's not a gift from on high. Leadership is something you practice. And some people have been practicing it from they were on a sports field when they were 10 years of age, right through. ⁓ but it's very much a practice and it's how you manage that team. There was a survey done of ten thousand, they're on the cusp of hit and see. So real high performers. And the question was about retention, why they actually stayed with a company or left to go to another one. And the number one reason that people actually stayed with an organization was that they worked for a leader they trusted, admired, and respect. They didn't have to like them, but they did have to respect them. And that was huge. And I think one of the pieces from a leadership perspective, if you take a step back and say, would I respect, do I trust this person? Like, do I genuinely trust them? And do they admire them, not just for their technical ability, but their ability to bring people with them? Because when you get to that, managing partner level, your job now is to make sure that everybody within the team is able to deliver to the best that they can. It's no longer about that single operator. It's about creating the right environment for everybody to step forward. So leadership's something you practice. And you know what? There's days when you're not as good as others. There's days when practice wasn't great this day. You know, you flip, you reverted back to being a red or a blue or whatever colour diagnostic you've been, but you went to type and it can be tricky. But it's very much practice.
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. It's like that old adage, isn't it? It's how you make someone feel, not necessarily what you do. And I think you're right. If there is a sense of trust and respect, you feel safe. And I think you're more able to reach your full potential. So if I come to my final question, every leader has a moment where it would have been easier to look away a tough conversation, a misnumber, a client walking, a personal loss. What does a high performance leader actually do in those moments? And can each of you maybe share one of your own experiences?
speaker-2: I think one of the things, the biggest, is self-awareness. I'll take you back to earlier in my career. I, as is the way, I had worked in sales and was successful. And what happens is when you're successful in the corporate work world, you're rewarded with more work. So I got a promotion and I was now managing a team of five people. As far as I was concerned, everything was going fantastic. We were hitting target. Everybody was making commission, life was good. And the organization I worked for brought in a consultant to do a 360 degree feedback. And I'm not sure if you've participated in this, but it basically is your your line manager, your manager, your peers, and your direct reports, fill in a full survey, everything with your communication style, your empathy, your drive. As far as I was concerned, I was coming out all stars. And the consultant gave me my document and I read it and I was raging. And when I say raging, I had failed miserably. ⁓ my goodness, I was a tyrant. It was, I pushed for the numbers. It was my way or the highway. I didn't listen. ⁓ I had approximately zero empathy. It was a really harsh read. And the consultant could say I was quite taken back. And like my first reaction was, Well, do you know what? See this, you know, I could do no more for them. But he asked me a question and he said, You know, what percentage do you work? Like what do you give to work? And I says, I'm giving it the big one. I'm a hundred, a hundred and ten percent. And he said, What about your team? I was them, fifty or sixty at best. And he said, you know, imagine you could get each of them to be ten percent better. He goes, That's fifty percent more. He goes, That's you. You could do ninety percent and you'd still be at a hundred and forty percent in terms of your team. It was a complete penny drop moment for me that I suddenly realized that me pushing so hard and Me driving the numbers and not actually creating the environment for everybody to be able to give more than 60% was a me thing. So for me, I think the big piece is actually self-awareness. And sometimes you need a breeze block to the side of the head to let you see, right? Hold a mirror up high. And I think that for me is a big thing from a leadership is if you want a high performing team, you have to be a high performing leader and you must have self-awareness as to where your downfall is.
speaker-1: The best way that I can probably explain mine is through the phrase, treat others as you would like to be treated. That is actually quite untrue for leadership because I know from one of the things that I've been guilty of in the past is if I'm working on a project or if I am just really getting on with things, I don't like to be checked in on. I don't really like to get feedback midway through a project. I prefer it all to just come at once and rather someone had full context, full overview, and not really get that, you know, intermittent. project piece in terms of saying you're doing a good job, why not try this? Why not try that? I'd rather get the full, complete picture as close to finish as possible and then say, right, what do we need to change, tweak, edit? And then just to make it perfect, feedback that I got was other people felt as though their work wasn't being recognized or the you know the work that they were doing every single day and the small habits that they were kind of compounding every single day was just going unnoticed because they thought because I wasn't addressing it and because I wasn't giving feedback at the time in real time. That it was just going quite unnoticed. So they were disenfranchised because they were thinking, well, I'm gonna put all this effort in, and then at the end it's gonna be a mad scramble to get things tweaked, edited, changed, whatever the case was. Because that's the way I like to do it. But just because that's the way I like to do it, that's actually doesn't mean it's the right way. Because the strength of having a team that like to do things differently is that people approach projects differently, people see things from different angles, people come with different suggestions. So that's you can't just have the good parts of having a diverse team. You actually have to embrace all of having a diverse team. So sometimes that's actually a reminder to myself to say, okay, look out for those opportunities, look out for those small glimmers of the great work being done and make sure that you're celebrating it. So it's not just saying you're doing a great job for the sake of doing a great job because that's table stakes. That's what everyone wants to be doing. But it's actually looking for okay, where has this person gone above and beyond in a unique way or Done something that's made the project more efficient or more effective, kind of in the overall delivery. So one for me to really learn and work on because it's not something that comes naturally. And I think that's back to your point, Duda, on leadership. It doesn't necessarily just come naturally. It is something that you have to practice, particularly if you want to act in a certain way and you want to make sure that you're embracing the strengths of the wider team and multi-generational team who have come from different educational backgrounds, different social backgrounds and obviously different generational backgrounds too. So they all have different expectations and varying expectations of the workplace and what that will look like in terms of practice reward and all of, you know, how can you treat everyone equally without making sure that you're being attuned to their individual nuances too. It's definitely a hard one, but it's as long as you're intentionally putting time and effort into it every day, you're definitely doing more than someone who just thinks, I'm a great leader because Whenever I was sixteen I kept on the football team. Doesn't really immediately translate to a corporate setting twenty, thirty years later.
speaker-0: And that's it. And I think a lot of that comes down to time, doesn't it? And it's making time to reflect on yourself and how you're operating, but also time to then step back and look at your team because they're all going to bring different parts of your personality and your leadership style out. And I think, you know, taking those moments just to sort of check in personally and with the group, you know, will only bring great things. Una Mary Claire, thank you so much, both of you, for being so generous with your experience and so honest about what this actually takes. I think this will be a conversation that a lot of our listeners will sit with. Succession is actively owned rather than assumed, and intergenerational leadership should be designed rather than left to chance. And the uncomfortable truth that things keeping the lights on today might be exactly what's stopping, you know, a firm being ready for tomorrow. So Thank you both ever so much for sharing your experiences and your guidance. And I really look forward to continuing these conversations. I know you're contributing to some of our thought leadership, pieces which we really look forward to sharing with our members. So thank you both. And we will look forward to seeing you next time on Conversations With. Thank you for listening. Thank you for tuning in to the Morrison Global podcast. We hope today's episode sparked new ideas, broadened your thinking, and offered a fresh perspective. Don't forget to subscribe, share, and stay with us as we continue exploring the insights and stories shaping our world. Until next time, stay curious, stay inspired, and keep the conversations going.
