What constitutes "human beingness" during ecological crisis? • Zen Master & Teacher Norma Wong + Autumn Brown

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>> Norma Wong: A world that is heating up is not that much
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different than the end of the last ice Age. Our
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adaptation and our not adding to the world's
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suffering is called upon or we all perish
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together. It's going to cause an entire
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reconfiguring of all things. It's going to have to
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break all of our theories of how things are
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supposed to be.
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>> Autumn Brown: Welcome to Climate Changed A Podcast from the BTS
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Center. I'm Autumn Brown, artist, theologian,
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mother and freedom worker.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: And I'm Nicole Diroff an ordained minister in the
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United Church of Christ, a main master Naturalist
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and Associate Director at the BTS Center. On this
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podcast, Autumn and I explore together how
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spiritual imagination and real world practice meet
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this moment of change.
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>> Autumn Brown: We ask you and our guests what it means to live,
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to love, and to lead in a climate changed world.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Today we're talking with Norma Wong about what it
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means to be good ancestors in a time of collapse,
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how we might reconstitute community and resilience
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when so much around us feels uncertain.
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>> Autumn Brown: Norma Wong, also known as Norma Ryuko Kaweloku
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Wong Roshi, is a native Hawaiian and Haka Zen
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teacher. She is a lifelong resident of Hawaii and
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the Abbot of Enko Inn, an independent branch
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temple of Daihonzen, Chozenji. Norma is also an
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86th generation Zen master who has spent over 40
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years applying Zen and indigenous values to
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transformational change. Before we begin, a few
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reflections. As you listen, you'll hear Norma
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describe what it means to live with collapse. As a
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teacher, she speaks about breathing as a practice
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of community, about accompaniment as our natural
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state, and about how indigenous and Zen traditions
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offer ways of seeing that reweave what has been
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torn.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: This conversation asks us to think beyond
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individual leadership, to understand spiritual
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leadership as something we hold together.
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>> Autumn Brown: Before we move into the interview, let's take a
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moment to ground ourselves.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: I'm happy to share with all of you today a song
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called Woven Together that was composed by by
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musician Pax Ressler. For an event the BTS center
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hosted featuring attorney and indigenous leader
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Sheri Mitchell, Pax was invited to craft a song
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that reflected something the BTS center had been
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talking about a theology in a kinship worldview,
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and a beautiful moment occurred following our
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online event with Sherry Mitchell. She was so
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moved by Pax's song that she invited them to come
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to Maine and be part of the closing ceremony for a
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many day walk she was organizing called A Journey
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for Peace and Friendship. So Pax was able to
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perform this song again in the presence of all of
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those journeyers Enjoy.
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>> Pax Ressler: God of all beings seen and unseen of earth, sea
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and sky and in between you knit us together strand
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after strand Beloved and belonging the same But
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God, we've abandoned our siblings we frayed and
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we've torn at the fabric you carefully made
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Believing we're cut from a different cloth that we
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are not kin anymore can we be kin again? Weave us
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God, thread by thread Forgive us the self centered
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lives we've led. Sew back together what's torn
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apart you said it's not too late to start We've us
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got string by string Remind us that we're tied to
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everything Sew back together what's torn apart you
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said it's not too late to start to be woven again.
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God, there are teachers among us today they called
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to remind us while we looked away Mother Earth
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cries out to shake our belief that we are not kin
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anymore. Hm. Can we be kin again? Weave us God,
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thread by thread Forgive us the self centered
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lives we've led. Sew back together what's torn
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apart you said it's not too late to start Weave us
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God, string by string Remind us that we're tied to
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everything Sew back together what's torn apart you
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said it's not too late to start to be woven again
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O God, we vow to be woven now we won't be afraid
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one more day until our end we'll strive to mend
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the harm that we caused the kinship we lost. Weave
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us God, string by string Remind us that we're tied
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to everything so back together what's torn apart
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you said it's not too late to start to be woven
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again. Weave us again we will again.
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>> Autumn Brown: Norma Wong has lived at the intersection of
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Indigenous identity, Zen practice and political
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leadership. She served in the Hawaii state
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legislature and worked as a policy strategist for
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Governor John Waihe, leading major negotiations
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over Native Hawaiian land and water rights. Today,
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she brings that same grounded wisdom to
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ecological, cultural and spiritual crises. From
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Mauna Kena to the Lahaina fires. Norma is the
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author of when no Thing A An Indigenous
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Perspective on Resilience, Shared Purpose and
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Leadership in the Time Place of Collapse. Her new
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book, who We Are Becoming Matters, is released in
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February 2026. We talk about breath accompaniment
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and what it means to be good ancestors when the
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systems around us are failing. Let's listen. I
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just wanted to start with taking a few breaths
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together, if that's okay.
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>> Norma Wong: Absolutely.
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>> Autumn Brown: All right. And all I'm going to do is take a
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breath in and then just Hum aloud on the exhale
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for as long as my exhale lasts. Sam.
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>> Norma Wong: Thank you. Thank you so much. Dear listeners were
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also breathing and humming at the same time. Then
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even if they were by themselves, they would have
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resonance with other human beings. A different way
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of setting your nervous system. We think of
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resonance, metaphorically, and it's really
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important for us to take it out of that
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theoretical concept and bring it into our actual
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embodiment.
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>> Autumn Brown: Thank you.
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I see in your background the pillow that says be a
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good ancestor, which feels like a really good note
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for us to start this conversation on. I see you as
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someone who is in the world really thinking about
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this, thinking about how to be good ancestors and
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modeling a particular way of becoming ancestor. I
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have so many questions for you, about spiritual
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leadership in a climate changed world. But I think
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maybe the place to begin is to ask you to talk a
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little bit about how you understand the work of
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spiritual leadership and in what ways you have
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found yourself offering spiritual care, offering
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accompaniment, offering spiritual grounding for
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others. I'm thinking of this in the context of
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ecological disruption, but I imagine that for you
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it's been across different phases of your life,
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and at different times, it's maybe shown up in
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different ways.
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>> Norma Wong: Autumn, as you know, the expansion of my life has
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taken different pathways. I started very much in
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community work. I, was deep into politics. I was
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very lucky that my political life opened up just
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at the same moment when I started my spiritual
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practice. I believe that without that, I would
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have lost my way, as it is very easy to lose one's
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way. And I say that without judgment. When I say
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losing your way, you can just become unmoored
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because you're following the passion of your
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purpose so strongly. Right. You could still be on
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track with respect to that, and you could leave
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your and other people's humanities behind in doing
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that. You're just creating, ah, collateral damage
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as you go. I can't say that I didn't create
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collateral damage, but I could say that my
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awareness and practice meant that it allowed me to
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reset as I walk.
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I have a complex, relationship with the word
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leadership. If we take spiritual leadership and we
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take the word leadership, the complexity of that
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for me is the way in Western culture we think of
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leadership as being a singular endeavor, something
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that an individual brings forward. So even when we
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say everyone is a leader, that still brings about
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a, context of everyone individually bringing forth
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a set of characteristics and behaviors that would
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lead to be in front of. And I understand the
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necessity for there to be a Thing called
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leadership. But I think that we are beyond the
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moment where Mother Earth can count on individual
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leadership.
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>> Norma Wong: if we look at the universe as our guide in that
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regard, there's nothing about the universe that's
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singular. It is totally in relationship with all
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beings. It is a complex organism that finds its
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path even in the chaos that it is right now. It is
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attempting to move towards the balance of a new
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norm. It's gotten to a state where it is trying to
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find its way, as it has, through many, many
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millennia in which humans were not a part of it.
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So it's trying to do that, and when it's doing
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that, it's doing it in relationship with all the
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beings, the humans being among the least of it.
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Right? So the great oceans, right. The land
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masses, the, billions of non human beings that are
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breathing its air and exhaling into its universe,
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all of the trees, the pollen. Right. The plankton
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in the ocean. And all of this is in relationship
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to each other. M. And then we as humans think,
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okay, what's called upon us is to act in our
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individual leadership.
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>> Autumn Brown: When you put it like that, Norma,
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>> Norma Wong: I think that's a limited aspiration. Okay. I think
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we can believe and cultivate and grow and work
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into a much larger aspiration where we are in
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companionship with all the beings, including the
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universe.
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>> Norma Wong: In the native language, we have a word called kkou
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that's a, K, A K O U. There's a macron over it,
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over the two syllables. So it's kkou. This word
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kkou means us, and it's us more than two. And so
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that notion of spiritual leadership being a KO
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thing, accumulated endeavor, not a co leadership,
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you know, where we're trying to negotiate between
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two or more leaders how we will exercise our
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leadership, but an accumulated experiential way in
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which we are in tangible cohesion, moving with. M
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and the with and for are the same. It's not a
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binary. A long, long kind of un. Nodding. I'm just
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giving you a window of what it is that I'm hearing
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and, feeling internally whenever anyone says the
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word leadership.
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>> Autumn Brown: I appreciate that. I'm reflecting on the way that
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when we imagine, spiritual leaders in action, even
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when we're talking about spiritual support through
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the lens of accompaniment, there's still a sort
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of, maybe an imagery associated with that
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activity. That is one person coming alongside
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another person, you know, that it is a, ah, one to
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one relationship, or it's about the. The
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individual orienting to another individual, or the
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individuals orienting to a group which is
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different from say, meta, compassion practice of
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imagining that my practice is actually happening
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in concert with everything that is alive,
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regardless of whether I'm actively in space or in
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touch with or in relationship with others. Even
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the ways that we imagine or conceive of support
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and accompaniment tend to be one individual's
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actions in relationship to another's.
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>> Norma Wong: Yes, I do believe that that's a construct, right.
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That we have. It's a construct because of the ways
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in which we are, especially within certain
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countries. So I think that in the country called,
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America that we have a, ah, hyper individualism,
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this is part of how we've separated ourselves from
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the environment. We think of our successes and our
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freedoms and our rights even. Right. Our rights
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arise to us as individuals. And this brings us
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into a way of being in which we have to even
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consciously work at being an accompaniment. Right.
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Rather than that being like a natural state of
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being, if we are to rise in our spiritual
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leadership, it would be a natural state of being
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to be in accompaniment with all beings. Right.
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Including the humans. And that it would be in
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relationship to the universe in a way that we
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would understand that our time here is brief in
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relationship to the universe. And so therefore,
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how can we in this moment be as good a guess and a
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steward as we can? And then what does that mean on
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a daily basis? Right? What does that mean on a
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daily basis? And for this to be more of a natural,
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state of being so that our minute decisions would
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be naturally managed. You know, when you go into
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the grocery store, what are your behaviors as you
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just walk down the aisle? What do you choose? How
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are you in relationship to the people who are also
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choosing? And are you aware that Auntie looks like
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she is making hard choices about what it is that
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she can and cannot buy? How can you be an
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accompaniment of that? And then what do you do
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about that? What do you do about that?
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>> Autumn Brown: I'm really appreciating that you brought in the,
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the challenge of the worldview of individualism,
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the hyper individualism, especially because, it
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relates to one of the questions I wanted to ask
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you about. Well, just how worldview relates to and
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impacts even how we perceive and understand what
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our relationship to crisis is. You're speaking to
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this much longer scale of time and how we situate
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ourselves inside of this much longer scale of
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time. And in the lead up to our conversation, I
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had been really reflecting on how in this like
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modern colonial context, we have this sense,
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especially Americans, we tend to be very Short
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sighted and very anti historical. I've noticed
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that indigenous leaders, indigenous communities,
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communities that have a more intact or unbroken
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lineages, their own history and unbroken contact
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with their own stories tend to. And this could be
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a projection on my part, but it seems that there's
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like maybe just a little less reactivity or a
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little less free state in response to crisis
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conditions like. Or a different kind of grounding
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or a different way to meet crisis without panic.
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>> Norma Wong: I've been thinking a lot about indigeneity.
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Indigeneity as a way of being, not m. In its
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cultural context. Certainly there are people who
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can call themselves indigenous today, as my people
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can because of the historical cultural context of
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being native people in place who have a culture
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that has been brought forward from time immemorial
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and who have ways. There's that cultural
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historical context of indigeneity, and then
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there's a way of beingness that culturally intact
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indigenous people have. But it can be said that in
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a remarkable way, all indigenous people throughout
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times would have had very, very similar ways,
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which means that it wasn't cultural.
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>> Autumn Brown: Interesting. I'm following.
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>> Norma Wong: So the cultural part. I would have uniquely.
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Right. To a Zulu or Anishinaabe, right. Or an
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Upiak, right. The Kanaka Maoli version of our
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culture would be different, but in terms of ways,
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we would have certain ways that would be so
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foundational. They would be source. And that
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source would have been source for all folks of
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indigeneity, irrespective of where they are in the
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globe, wherever they were in time. Which means
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that all peoples at some point in their human
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history would have had that way of being. If you
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cannot call yourself indigenous today, it's
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because you were separated from that way so long
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ago. Right. And also your cultural ways, but that
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source aspect would have been separated much
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sooner than your cultural ways.
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>> Autumn Brown: Interesting.
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>> Norma Wong: Right?
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>> Autumn Brown: Just to clarify, sooner, Sooner as in before that
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the source way is separated first before the
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cultural way can be separated.
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>> Norma Wong: That's right. Because you can relearn a language.
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>> Autumn Brown: Okay, Right, right.
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>> Norma Wong: On a didactic way. Right. Through phonetics,
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through listening and things like that, you can
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relearn a language. You can relearn how to make
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certain foods, you can relearn those types of
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things. And those would be cultural ways that
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might give you a glimpse into the ways that are
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deeper than that, but would not mean that you
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would be tied into source in a way that
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irrespective of whether you can speak the
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language, you would still be tied to source. And
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I've been thinking about this because of two
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things. One is that for the indigenous peoples of
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the world, who, by the way, have particular views
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about the environment and also have particular
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wisdoms that could be useful to the world right
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now, we, cannot be of use. If we're marginalized
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as being the indigenous peoples who have our own
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ways, then we can only be respected and honored to
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conduct those ways within the confines of our own
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people, on our own lands. And that will be not
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enough. That will be not enough for the world at
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large. It will also mean that our people and our
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lands will not survive. You cannot keep the impact
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of the world out in a boundary around certain
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lands. You cannot keep it out by having a bubble
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around things. Even the Amish will perish. So that
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aspect about then, therefore, what is this way of
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being that needs to be understood and come into
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the being of people who cannot in any legitimate
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way call themselves as being indigenous? How can
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we be in the indigenous way? One of those ways is
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we must have a notion of our agency and our
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possibility and our responsibility to a much
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longer horizon. One that goes beyond our life.
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Right. To be a good ancestor, what can I do in my
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life? To be a good ancestor, what can I do in my
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life that would be beneficial to the time beyond
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the collapse?
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>> Norma Wong: How much of my effort is in that end will mark how
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good of an ancestor I am?
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>> Autumn Brown: I'm really struck by this idea of the, I wrote it
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down the source way and the cultural way. This
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idea that the disconnection from the source has to
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actually kind of has to happen before the
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disconnection from the cultural way.
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>> Norma Wong: Hi there. It's Ophelia from the BTS Center. Did
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you know that our team puts together show notes
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and discussion questions for you for every
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episode? Climate Changed is for you and your
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spiritual community. You can find all this and
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00:26:10,900 --> 00:26:13,580
more online at, Climate Changed Podcast.
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Now, back to the show.
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>> Autumn Brown: And, you know, I was thinking about the orienting
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and chaos in relationship to your book. In your
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book, when no Thing Works, you talk about this
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metaphor of the slipstream that, as I understand
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it, is a way that you're. Well, I said it's a
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metaphor. I don't think it's actually a metaphor.
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It's like an actual thing, but it's a real thing,
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but, you know, but an able metaphor to describe
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what happens when. When things feel like they're
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moving or something has unleashed. It's like
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there's a. There's a stream of movement, and then
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there's an additional force. That causes things to
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move even more quickly. As I read and understand
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it, it seems that there's a way that the
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slipstream makes more things possible in kind of a
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sudden way, if we're oriented appropriately. I
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think people feel a profound sense of the
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intensity of what is happening from an individual
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place. There's, a like I'm looking around and
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screaming because someone pay attention to this
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thing that's happening over here. And the
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slipstream feels like a different way to be with
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that chaos. That is maybe more about feeling the
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intensity and then seeking relationships to be
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inside of. To be inside of that intensity as
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opposed to resisting it, among other things.
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>> Norma Wong: In the slipstream. Right. As individuals, we have
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very limited agency as individuals. But we should
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also understand that in a slipstream, systems and
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processes and institutions and governments,
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because governments are just systems and
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institutions and processes, that all of that will
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have very limited capacity to be able to deal with
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the roiling impacts of everything. In a
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polycrisis, in multiple crises, even those
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governments that are led by beneficial leaders who
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are trying their very best and whose ideologies
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may have been part of creating even those leaders
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and those institutions will be stretched thin and
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will be very fragile and will have difficulty
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delivering into its promise. Once disasters reach
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a certain size, complexity and rhythm, in other
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words, one crisis happens and it is right on the
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heels of another.
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>> Norma Wong: Then the physics of it. The physics of that means
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that all of the systems that have been constructed
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to respond can only react rather than respond.
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okay. Even the ones that have the best intentions,
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the best philosophy, you know, the dedicated
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people who are behind it and all of that. Okay.
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And so, among other things, it's kind of a useless
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exercise to rail against that. You're railing
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against the collapsing system as you would rail
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against the storm. The two phenomena, one cannot
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combat the other. And so therefore, we have to
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actually re align in terms of how we are going to
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reconstitute the human beingness M For all the
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people who have been within the democracy
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experiment, how that might occur during times of
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relative stability don't matter. It really is. How
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does that operate in a time of maximum crisis,
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where everything is being attacked from inside and
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outside? What m is it that we stand for? And how
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do we reconstitute ourselves to be in that? How do
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we reconstitute ourselves? If we abandon each
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other for an ideal, then we would have totally
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lost our way. Should we hold out an unuseful set
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of ways that would essentially stand up for our
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ideals? Absolutely. But when you stand up for your
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ideals, make sure that you are feeding the people
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and make sure that people who are losing their
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homes are able to be taken care of and understand
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that that is not going to be a systems thing
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anymore. M. Mm
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>> Autumn Brown: And again, this feels to me related to the. The
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longer view that you're holding out and the
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orienting to a much longer horizon that even, even
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in this moment, there's a lot of different ways to
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refer to, you know, what is producing this. The,
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the current, the most current wave inside of the
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poly crisis, for lack of other language, I'll just
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say the sort of rise of fascism, the political,
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sort of political descent into kind of a more
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fascistic structure that has people really
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fighting for democracy, quote unquote. To the
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extent that we're ignoring the actual human needs
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that are arising in the context of the poly crisis
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and the real thing, the material thing that's
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actually happening is the human to human
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relationship, the opportunity inside of the
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crisis, as I understand it, is to create or
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recreate the material relationship between people
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inside of the crisis. Rather than getting really
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attached to the ideology of any particular system
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or party or. it's interesting to think about the
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role of spiritual practice or the role of faith
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communities, particularly inside of that. They're.
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They're often like a third space, not connected to
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governmental systems and institutions. It's not
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that they don't struggle with individualism, but
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they are kind of often trying to hold out a
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different way of being inside of an otherwise
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capitalist, individualistic structure.
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>> Norma Wong: You know, the opportunity is to expand the
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possibility of that third space without it needing
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to be associated with theocracy.
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>> Autumn Brown: Mm
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>> Norma Wong: It's the spirituality that I hold. So I practice
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Zen Buddhism. Zen practitioners are kind of known
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as the the Jesuits of the Buddhist community.
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Okay. You know, we're kind of hardcore and you
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know, when we do our meditation, we don't move.
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What spiritual leadership looks like to me is that
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people recognize the source of the spirit within
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themselves and in others who hold that spirit in
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relationship to each other, they hold more than
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themselves. Right. M. There would be a recognition
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of that humanity and what's required to stay in
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one's humanity and the humanity not being separate
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from beings who are not humans.
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>> Autumn Brown: That kind of humanity, humanity that is not
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separate from non humanity.
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>> Norma Wong: That's right. It's not separate from non humans,
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which is different than not having one's humanity.
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That core notion of our, of our existence playing
501
00:34:14,830 --> 00:34:18,160
itself out not only in our spiritual practice, but
502
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,040
in how we hold governance. In the commons, which
503
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,600
is to say that in this polycrisis, the opportunity
504
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:31,120
we need to meet is to actually create the ways in
505
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,440
which that expands, irrespective of what may be
506
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,280
happening to systems, to governments, to
507
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,640
countries, to the earth itself. How do we expand
508
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,390
that whole way of being that would be with each
509
00:34:45,390 --> 00:34:47,670
other, you know, so that we would move the people
510
00:34:47,830 --> 00:34:51,950
before the rising tide, not rescue them after they
511
00:34:51,950 --> 00:34:56,310
have been swept away. And that communities would
512
00:34:56,310 --> 00:34:59,990
arise to do those things. And I would say that's
513
00:35:00,070 --> 00:35:03,270
actually what's happening in many, many ways.
514
00:35:03,270 --> 00:35:03,350
>> Autumn Brown: Right.
515
00:35:03,350 --> 00:35:06,550
>> Norma Wong: in many, many places. But we think of that in an
516
00:35:06,550 --> 00:35:10,020
unhelpfully way as being, oh, the things that
517
00:35:10,180 --> 00:35:13,300
people are having to do because everything has
518
00:35:13,300 --> 00:35:17,300
fallen apart. And that I would see as being just
519
00:35:17,300 --> 00:35:19,860
part of what it is do I would do, and it would be
520
00:35:19,860 --> 00:35:22,420
part of my contribution.
521
00:35:23,300 --> 00:35:24,900
>> Autumn Brown: What if it's some of the things that you notice
522
00:35:24,900 --> 00:35:27,780
really arise for people in that visioning?
523
00:35:28,820 --> 00:35:31,980
>> Norma Wong: So deep within every adult, there's still a memory
524
00:35:31,980 --> 00:35:36,260
of a child who could tell stories without a guide.
525
00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:40,270
Right. Okay, so. But it's sort of deeply buried
526
00:35:40,270 --> 00:35:44,190
within an adult. That said, I find that adults
527
00:35:44,190 --> 00:35:48,670
like to hear stories, and adults actually can be
528
00:35:48,670 --> 00:35:53,350
facilitated into that space of the child that is
529
00:35:53,350 --> 00:35:58,990
within them that would imagine. Imagine a time and
530
00:35:58,990 --> 00:36:03,500
a place that is much more fruitful, that is beyond
531
00:36:03,500 --> 00:36:07,340
the moment of where we are right now. Storytelling
532
00:36:07,340 --> 00:36:12,510
is a powerful, powerful practice. Storytelling
533
00:36:12,510 --> 00:36:17,460
could happen by literally telling stories, but it
534
00:36:17,460 --> 00:36:21,830
can also happen, by any of the arts. Just a few
535
00:36:21,830 --> 00:36:24,990
years ago, we had catastrophic fires on the island
536
00:36:24,990 --> 00:36:29,320
of Maui. the entire town of Lahaina was burned.
537
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,400
More than 100 people lost. The people of Lahaina
538
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,600
are determined to rebuild that place. How they
539
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,320
rebuild it will take a very long time. One of the
540
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,480
most important aspects of that is a few people who
541
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:49,600
said, we imagine that when Lahaina comes back to
542
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:54,290
its being, that most of that place called Lahaina
543
00:36:54,370 --> 00:36:58,090
will have trees and plants that are native to the
544
00:36:58,090 --> 00:37:01,370
place, rather than all of the nursery kinds of
545
00:37:01,370 --> 00:37:04,930
things that we import that are not used to this
546
00:37:04,930 --> 00:37:07,849
place. And therefore, among other things, would
547
00:37:07,849 --> 00:37:11,730
not be as sturdy and hardy through hard times and
548
00:37:11,970 --> 00:37:15,090
would not lend to the soil and to the birds and
549
00:37:15,090 --> 00:37:16,690
other beings of this place.
550
00:37:17,150 --> 00:37:20,890
>> Norma Wong: Mm. But if you have that imagination, you would
551
00:37:20,890 --> 00:37:24,210
have to actually have nurseries that would have
552
00:37:24,210 --> 00:37:27,180
enough stock of native plants so that as that,
553
00:37:27,130 --> 00:37:29,840
rebuilding is going, which will take many years,
554
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,320
that there will be flows of native plants within
555
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,120
every story, within every imagining, there's all
556
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,880
Kind of stuff that has to be done. I would use a
557
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,520
different word, but this may be on the radio and
558
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,960
you wouldn't be allowed to use that word. It
559
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,520
begins with S. And less letters than stuff. Right.
560
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:52,040
>> Autumn Brown: Okay.
561
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,960
>> Norma Wong: There's work that would have to be done now in
562
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,160
order for that future world to be what we want it
563
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,760
to be. There are seeds that would have to be kept.
564
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,080
There's plant stock that would have to be grown.
565
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:11,330
There are technology that has to be redesigned to
566
00:38:11,330 --> 00:38:13,970
meet that future need, let alone the current need.
567
00:38:15,140 --> 00:38:20,060
not just be a, a go to. That would lazily remove
568
00:38:20,060 --> 00:38:23,700
thinking from our minds. There's actual work that
569
00:38:23,700 --> 00:38:26,939
have to be figured. If you say it's going to be a
570
00:38:26,939 --> 00:38:31,080
world in which less than 25% of what it is that
571
00:38:31,030 --> 00:38:34,050
any household might need yet you would purchase,
572
00:38:34,130 --> 00:38:39,990
that is a large and complex trading operation that
573
00:38:39,990 --> 00:38:42,750
has to get figured out. You would have to begin
574
00:38:42,750 --> 00:38:46,470
the experimentation of that at a pretty hefty
575
00:38:46,470 --> 00:38:49,350
scale to do that. And you'd have to go and do it
576
00:38:49,350 --> 00:38:52,950
now in order for all of that system to be in
577
00:38:52,950 --> 00:38:53,270
place.
578
00:38:53,390 --> 00:38:57,380
>> Norma Wong: Right. Okay. Less time discussing the theory of
579
00:38:57,380 --> 00:39:01,260
capitalism, more time building the actuality of
580
00:39:01,260 --> 00:39:03,860
what all of that would look like and have to be
581
00:39:03,860 --> 00:39:07,290
and be at scale. The reeducation efforts that
582
00:39:07,290 --> 00:39:12,210
would need huge distribution, that would be at a
583
00:39:12,530 --> 00:39:16,370
commons level rather than a third party level. And
584
00:39:16,370 --> 00:39:18,290
Amazon without an Amazon. Okay.
585
00:39:18,940 --> 00:39:23,900
>> Norma Wong: So that work is not separated from today's work.
586
00:39:23,900 --> 00:39:26,620
The imagining work is not separated from that.
587
00:39:26,620 --> 00:39:29,820
It's the story that you tell that you immediately
588
00:39:29,820 --> 00:39:34,000
begin implementing into. And if you do that, it
589
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,280
may indeed take many years to get there. But along
590
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,720
the way you will lessen the suffering.
591
00:39:43,250 --> 00:39:46,770
>> Autumn Brown: yes, yes. I can feel that in my own life, the
592
00:39:46,770 --> 00:39:49,930
moments when I've been involved in mutual aid
593
00:39:50,650 --> 00:39:53,650
experiments. Even the hardest times, Even the
594
00:39:53,650 --> 00:39:57,050
hardest times, there's joy. There's joy in
595
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,560
practicing connection in that way, even under
596
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,450
crisis and duress. there is something about being
597
00:40:04,530 --> 00:40:07,610
in a different practice with one another that is a
598
00:40:07,610 --> 00:40:09,970
part of that grand experimentation that guides us
599
00:40:09,970 --> 00:40:12,930
into that future that we can imagine. Being in a
600
00:40:12,930 --> 00:40:15,490
different practice together can bring a kind of
601
00:40:15,490 --> 00:40:19,330
joy and connection that maybe is also part of the
602
00:40:19,650 --> 00:40:24,530
rebuilding the pathway to the source way. We think
603
00:40:24,530 --> 00:40:28,090
a lot about reconnecting to culture, but some of
604
00:40:28,090 --> 00:40:30,290
what we're being called to do is going to be
605
00:40:30,530 --> 00:40:33,410
creating new culture, creating new cultural ways
606
00:40:33,410 --> 00:40:36,930
in part because by necessity the cultural ways
607
00:40:36,930 --> 00:40:40,290
cannot necessarily be so geographically specific
608
00:40:40,290 --> 00:40:40,850
anymore.
609
00:40:40,850 --> 00:40:43,890
>> Norma Wong: Yes, I believe that that is the case. So if
610
00:40:44,370 --> 00:40:47,490
something doesn't work, then you have to think
611
00:40:47,490 --> 00:40:50,500
creatively, right, Rather than demand that it
612
00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:50,940
works.
613
00:40:54,300 --> 00:40:57,660
>> Autumn Brown: You've lived through so many, movements, turning
614
00:40:57,660 --> 00:41:00,740
points, civil rights, indigenous sovereignty,
615
00:41:00,740 --> 00:41:02,940
women's liberation, globalization, digital
616
00:41:02,940 --> 00:41:07,660
revolution. You've seen ideas rise, fade, and
617
00:41:07,660 --> 00:41:11,340
return in new forms. From where you stand now,
618
00:41:11,660 --> 00:41:14,960
what feels genuinely new to the moment that, that
619
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,080
we're in? What patterns or struggles do you
620
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,600
recognize continue to repeat themselves? And how
621
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,320
do you make sense of this dance between continuity
622
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,720
and genuine change? What endures, what evolves,
623
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,760
and what it is that we have to actually release
624
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,280
and truly let go of?
625
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,000
>> Norma Wong: First of all, I would say if you live long enough,
626
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,800
you would have seen many things, you would have
627
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,440
lived through many things. Therefore, let us hope
628
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,080
that that is what humanity does. I came upon a
629
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:49,080
small piece of fact at the end of the last ice
630
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,160
age. Likely there were humans who were already
631
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,720
speaking in language, and therefore they were in
632
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,880
relationship with each other because there would
633
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,360
be no other reason to formulate language but to be
634
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,920
in relationship with each other. And I wonder
635
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,880
about what those humans were thinking about at
636
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,920
that moment as the world changed so much in the
637
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,200
life of themselves and their immediate
638
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,080
descendants. What it is that they said to each
639
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:21,160
other? What is it that they hope for? Because
640
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,840
there's also no reason for a language to exist
641
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:30,680
unless it is to express one's hopes. That being
642
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,200
the case, we actually have right now not only the
643
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:38,450
experience of the last 70 to 100 years, we have
644
00:42:38,450 --> 00:42:41,410
the experience of tens of thousands of years. We
645
00:42:41,410 --> 00:42:44,530
have both repeated things that we should know
646
00:42:44,530 --> 00:42:48,210
better not to repeat. We have also strived to come
647
00:42:48,210 --> 00:42:51,130
into a better understanding around things. And
648
00:42:51,130 --> 00:42:54,130
both are true. It's not a binary, right? Both are
649
00:42:54,130 --> 00:42:58,560
true. Which part of us will prevail? Can we set
650
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,120
aside our constructs and come back to more of the
651
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,320
fundamental aspect of human life and dignity?
652
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,680
Common cause in repair, in repair of ourselves, of
653
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,640
others, and the earth itself. Can we make mistakes
654
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,760
and arise from them? Can we lay aside the
655
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,960
grievance long enough to do the repair? Can we
656
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,600
find a new resolve that we are determined not to
657
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,000
outsource to some system or through some machine
658
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:35,960
and, really do the hard, hard work of reimagining?
659
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,040
And in that reimagining, understand that there
660
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,000
will both be new and old themes? May the old theme
661
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,960
not be an ism. May it be more vital than that,
662
00:43:46,540 --> 00:43:49,650
when we come to the aid of each other, let it not
663
00:43:49,650 --> 00:43:54,250
be a stopgap that we do until the real process
664
00:43:54,330 --> 00:43:55,050
kicks in.
665
00:43:55,650 --> 00:43:57,890
Understand that whatever that process or the
666
00:43:57,890 --> 00:44:00,330
system may be. We're going to have to help it
667
00:44:00,330 --> 00:44:03,970
along. We have to infill it because everything is
668
00:44:03,970 --> 00:44:07,290
under such duress. A world that is heating up is
669
00:44:07,290 --> 00:44:10,090
not that much different than the end of the last
670
00:44:10,090 --> 00:44:14,450
ice Age, which is to say our adaptation and our
671
00:44:14,450 --> 00:44:18,690
not adding to the world's suffering is called upon
672
00:44:19,090 --> 00:44:22,850
or we all perish together. And therefore it's
673
00:44:22,850 --> 00:44:25,930
going to cause an entire reconfiguring of all
674
00:44:25,930 --> 00:44:30,010
things. Before ability, consciousness is required.
675
00:44:32,510 --> 00:44:36,670
>> Norma Wong: Right. Consciousness will need to precede the
676
00:44:36,670 --> 00:44:40,270
doingness, and the doingness will have to be done
677
00:44:40,430 --> 00:44:42,950
differently. That's what's going to need to
678
00:44:42,950 --> 00:44:45,790
change. Right. That's what's going to change. It's
679
00:44:45,790 --> 00:44:48,990
going to have to break all of our theories of how
680
00:44:48,990 --> 00:44:51,870
things are supposed to be and anything that is
681
00:44:51,870 --> 00:44:55,350
associated with. Well, that's what we said. We
682
00:44:55,350 --> 00:44:56,270
have to lay aside.
683
00:44:57,070 --> 00:45:00,190
>> Autumn Brown: Beautiful. What a. What a beautiful landing,
684
00:45:00,350 --> 00:45:03,430
Norma. Thank you. One of the things I'm taking
685
00:45:03,430 --> 00:45:05,990
away from this conversation is the idea that
686
00:45:05,990 --> 00:45:08,710
you've planted in me now that language is for
687
00:45:08,710 --> 00:45:11,750
yearning or language is an expression of hope and
688
00:45:11,750 --> 00:45:15,670
desire, future casting, in a way we've actually
689
00:45:15,670 --> 00:45:19,810
known for many thousands of years how to adapt. So
690
00:45:19,810 --> 00:45:22,610
thank you for that reminder. I'm sure that our
691
00:45:22,610 --> 00:45:24,410
listeners will be very grateful.
692
00:45:24,490 --> 00:45:24,890
>> Norma Wong: Also,
693
00:45:28,010 --> 00:45:31,610
>> Autumn Brown: thank you so much for being with me and being with
694
00:45:31,610 --> 00:45:34,490
us, being with me, being with our listeners and
695
00:45:34,810 --> 00:45:37,690
being a part of this season and, and for the
696
00:45:37,690 --> 00:45:40,130
leadership that you bring. Even with all the
697
00:45:40,130 --> 00:45:43,250
complexity around that word, I feel your
698
00:45:43,250 --> 00:45:46,510
collective leadership in this world and it means a
699
00:45:46,510 --> 00:45:48,430
lot to me that you're out there doing what you do.
700
00:45:49,230 --> 00:45:52,270
>> Norma Wong: Autumn, I'm so honored that you're accompanying
701
00:45:52,270 --> 00:45:54,110
me. So thank you so much.
702
00:45:54,350 --> 00:45:56,430
>> Autumn Brown: Thank you. Thank you, Norma.
703
00:46:03,550 --> 00:46:06,470
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Thank you for joining us for this deeply grounding
704
00:46:06,470 --> 00:46:09,750
conversation with Norma Wong. There is still so
705
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:12,540
much more to expect, so we are keeping the
706
00:46:12,540 --> 00:46:15,540
conversation going. Next week on climate change,
707
00:46:15,940 --> 00:46:19,100
you will hear my conversation with Autumn as we
708
00:46:19,100 --> 00:46:22,340
unpack the profound themes and ideas that Norma
709
00:46:22,340 --> 00:46:25,780
raised. Today, we'll explore how to navigate
710
00:46:25,860 --> 00:46:29,300
transformational change and share some concrete
711
00:46:29,380 --> 00:46:32,100
next steps you can take in your own life and
712
00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:34,860
community. Make sure you're subscribed so you
713
00:46:34,860 --> 00:46:35,620
don't miss it.
714
00:46:37,710 --> 00:46:40,510
>> Autumn Brown: Well, listeners, we would love to hear from you
715
00:46:40,510 --> 00:46:42,910
about what you're discovering and what you're
716
00:46:42,910 --> 00:46:47,270
practicing. So please email us podcast the
717
00:46:47,270 --> 00:46:53,030
btscenter.org that's podcastbtscenter.org or you
718
00:46:53,030 --> 00:46:55,030
can leave us a voice message. We love to hear your
719
00:46:55,030 --> 00:46:59,264
voices and the phone number for that is 207-20069.
720
00:46:59,609 --> 00:47:04,970
8, 6 and who knows, something you share might
721
00:47:05,130 --> 00:47:07,370
ripple into future episodes that we record.
722
00:47:07,620 --> 00:47:10,820
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the
723
00:47:10,820 --> 00:47:12,340
Climate Change Podcast.
724
00:47:12,980 --> 00:47:15,900
>> Autumn Brown: Learn more about our guest, Norma Wong. She's the
725
00:47:15,900 --> 00:47:19,340
author of when no Thing A Zen An Indigenous
726
00:47:19,340 --> 00:47:22,060
Perspective on Resilience, Shared Purpose and
727
00:47:22,060 --> 00:47:24,940
Leadership in the Time Place of Collapse. You can
728
00:47:24,940 --> 00:47:26,140
learn more about her and
729
00:47:26,140 --> 00:47:29,960
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: her work@normawong.com Climate Changed is a
730
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,440
podcast from the BTS cultivating spiritual
731
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,440
leadership for a climate changed world.
732
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,000
>> Autumn Brown: You can find transcripts, discussion guides and
733
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,760
now full length video episodes with bonus
734
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:52,660
material. Explore more@thebtscenter.org stay
735
00:47:52,660 --> 00:47:53,140
connected.
736
00:47:53,700 --> 00:47:57,530
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Share this episode and reach out anytime. We love
737
00:47:57,530 --> 00:47:58,330
hearing from you.
738
00:47:59,450 --> 00:48:04,530
>> Autumn Brown: And as we close, here's a blessing for today. May
739
00:48:04,530 --> 00:48:07,850
you be fed, may you be watered, May you grow
740
00:48:07,850 --> 00:48:12,490
towards the sun. Feel held in love, worthy of
741
00:48:12,490 --> 00:48:12,810
love.
742
00:48:26,740 --> 00:48:29,380
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: Coming up in the next episode of Climate Change.
743
00:48:30,820 --> 00:48:33,580
This is so related to spiritual leadership in a
744
00:48:33,580 --> 00:48:35,920
climate change world and all of what Norma, was
745
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:36,799
saying to us.
746
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:37,400
>> Autumn Brown: Yeah.
747
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,360
>> Rev Nicole Diroff: If we are tapped into source and source reveals,
748
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,760
this grand interconnectedness, there starts to
749
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:46,810
surface these things that come compel us.
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>> Autumn Brown: Yes.
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>> Rev Nicole Diroff: My experience says open yourself to it. Make sure
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next week.