WEBVTT
00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:17.280
Hi comrades, and welcome to CLASS, the podcast of Democratic Socialists of America's National Political Education Committee, or NPEC.
00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:22.079
My name is Michaela, and I'm the current chair of NPEC and a member of North New Jersey DSA.
00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:35.280
In this episode, I'm talking with Gabe from Portland DSA on local data center moratoria and the potential contradictions and struggles that arise in the fight to preserve communities and advance a socialist, worker-centered political agenda.
00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:41.759
In the near future, we'll be keeping up on this topic with other comrades as this is an area of continuing development and debate.
00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:44.640
So consider this a part one with more to come.
00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:49.840
Before we dive in, a reminder that CLASS is available on all major podcast platforms.
00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:54.240
Please consider becoming a DSA member by following the link in the podcast description.
00:00:54.479 --> 00:01:00.719
You can also send us a message about the episode and sign up for Red Letter and Peck's Monthly Newsletter using the provided links.
00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:09.200
Another quick note: over the course of the next few months and through the summer, CLASS will be releasing episodes more intermittently than our usual once-a-week schedule.
00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:12.319
So don't forget to subscribe so you can catch them.
00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:32.640
There's a digital version or section of how people experience socialism now.
00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:41.680
But also to suggest there's a set of open questions in our political orientation towards tech and the digital or online realm that need to be explored.
00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:48.640
In that episode, we touched on social media and the idea of making our own digital tools as a step towards political independence.
00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:59.040
And now, several weeks later, it seems like everyone is talking almost exclusively about AI and data centers, and what, if anything, socialists should fight for in the short and long terms.
00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:04.480
Some chapters are going all in on local campaigns to delay data center construction in their areas.
00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:21.120
Some people are debating the effectiveness of boycotts or these kinds of moratorium campaigns and advocating for democratization instead, but still others in the labor movement are warning that demonizing data center construction is a betrayal to union workers who are advantaged by the current building boom.
00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:43.120
It's a live debate, and one that whether you believe that AI is inevitable or not, or to what degree, implies that socialists ought to think about this as a powerful industrial infrastructure and intervene not just ethically or on the basis of individual preference, but with a principled political analysis and an eye towards something more than just stopping them.
00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:53.840
So here we have Gabe, a member of Portland DSA, a nurses union representative, and a member of Bread and Roses Caucus to talk about the campaign his chapter is working on.
00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:55.520
Gabe, welcome to class.
00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:57.680
Hey, great to be here, Michaela.
00:02:58.080 --> 00:02:59.919
All right, thank you so much for coming on.
00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:04.000
Um, we always start with the same question for everyone who's new on the podcast.
00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:06.639
Um, how and why did you become a socialist?
00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:08.639
And how and why did you join DSA?
00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:09.759
Sure.
00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:13.840
Um I grew up here in Portland uh in a labor family.
00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:19.680
Uh my father was a longtime uh rank and file activist in the teachers' unions here.
00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:30.479
Uh and you know, I think that just gave me a baseline for you know what it means to be a member of the working class, um, but very much in the confines of capitalism.
00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:40.639
Um I think graduating high school, you know, 2009, during the Great Recession, those contradictions of capitalism uh were really clear to me.
00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:44.319
Uh, and over time, uh, it led me to socialism.
00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:53.199
And I'm a member of DSA because uh it is uh the best chance we have as a working class to uh fight for a socialist future.
00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:56.719
So you came to socialism through the labor movement.
00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:11.680
So you obviously be very sensitive and attentive to these questions about whether the data center boom is actually something that um needs to be kind of put into the category of labor rights in this global way.
00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:30.000
And we'll get to talking about that because right now your chapter is running a campaign or helping to run a campaign in connection with your socialists in office um cadre candidates and um elected officials to uh put a moratorium on uh the local data center.
00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:47.600
Um I can speak just interestingly enough, my brother is a builder, um, non-union uh at the moment, but he was uh in a union shop to build data centers in Oregon, not in your area, but like uh sort of eastern Oregon area.
00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:52.000
And um he was, it was like the most steady work he'd ever had.
00:04:52.160 --> 00:05:01.600
Um so I'm also really interested to talk about this because it seems to be something that is um kind of another layer on top of this.
00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:14.639
And you and I both know that uh we can't just kind of shunt off like worker interest off from these kind of like more political ethical questions that people are really seizing upon right now.
00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:18.319
Um, so let's just start with talking about your campaign.
00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:27.199
Um, how did your chapter get involved in this uh area of this arena of uh data center politics and what has it been like for y'all?
00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:28.399
Yeah, absolutely.
00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:38.639
I mean, first important point to call out is that we're certainly not the origin by any means of resistance to uh data center build-outs here in Oregon.
00:05:38.800 --> 00:06:04.399
Um, you know, last several years, like in many places in the country, uh, the sort of hyperscaler firms, Google, Amazon, et cetera, have been working with regional and national data center developers to build these massive data centers, as you mentioned in eastern Oregon, uh, certainly, and now increasingly in the western suburbs of Portland in the Hillsboro area.
00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:13.279
And so even from the beginning, there was uh a real grassroots resistance that reflected, you know, different interests, right?
00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:21.279
This is not something that was incubated in DSA, reflects the thinking only of socialists, right?
00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:32.800
Um, these are folks who are upset about the ecological impact, upset about the uh degradation of uh the agrarian environment where they live.
00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:41.120
They're upset about uh the sort of promise of these amazing jobs that that don't tend to be sustainable or materialize.
00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:43.920
Um, and they're upset about the political corruption, right?
00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:47.279
There's a ton of money flowing into Oregon.
00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:55.040
Um and I think like a lot of Western states, there is frankly a bipartisan culture that's resistant to outside capital.
00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:57.600
Um, at least uh that's how people feel.
00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:02.800
So we just oriented to that, and it's become a big issue in these uh upcoming elections.
00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:12.319
When you say bipartisan, what you mean is that there's a kind of um libertarian tradition in the Pacific Northwest, where I used to live, um, that is not leftist, right?
00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:28.079
It's kind of more um you mentioned agrarianism, but it's also about kind of like land, and um, there's a conservation aspect to it that's also about very much about private ownership and the sort of don't tread on me gun culture.
00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:31.040
Um very, very prevalent in in Oregon.
00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:36.000
Um, but then also it's a hotbed of um the opposite in many ways.
00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:38.480
Um, you know, Portland, I used to live in Seattle.
00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:47.199
It's the left there is has always been um extremely kind of like um direct action-oriented.
00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:55.920
And so this is an interesting one because a lot of these data center uh kinds of fights are happening within like city councils and that kind of thing.
00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:01.920
So maybe you can talk a little bit about what the tactics have been like so far and like kind of what the buildup has looked like.
00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:09.439
And in particular, if you could speak to the ways that your um um local electeds, especially DSA electeds, have been involved.
00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:13.040
And maybe some I know that there's also been some backlash recently.
00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:24.319
So just kind of take us through the journey that uh you and uh Portland DSA and anyone else who you think um has kind of come up in this, uh has taken through this.
00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:25.839
Yeah, absolutely.
00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:38.639
Um, so I mean, I think you know, folks can imagine that there's sort of a broad nonprofit, you know, milie here that's grounded in either the environmental movement or sort of the land use movement.
00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:44.559
Um, and you know, they have been uh producing some of the technical opposition, right?
00:08:44.639 --> 00:08:48.639
Um the governor has uh an advisory uh council now.
00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:55.200
That was sort of her orientation to this surprise pushback on the data centers, uh, Governor Tina Kotek.
00:08:55.440 --> 00:09:02.000
Uh and uh so the sort of nonprofit groups have been, you know, supplying the research, the data, et cetera, which is huge, right?
00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:04.399
That's not work that DSA is necessarily doing.
00:09:04.559 --> 00:09:12.000
Um, what I think has been missing and what we try and embody is um uh a political economy, right?
00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:19.360
Like who are the big corporations that are spending money to support uh politicians?
00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:24.559
And in the metro area, we're talking about a fight within their Democratic Party, right?
00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:26.240
Almost exclusively.
00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:29.759
Um, and how is that money influencing policy?
00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:49.840
Um, we've had this incredible opportunity with this May primary for these nonpartisan statehouse seats in Oregon, uh, where we have already endorsed an incredible, you know, cadre candidate, Democratic Socialist, uh Tammy Carpenter, uh, running for State House in Beaverton, one of those western suburbs of Portland.
00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:53.120
Uh and, you know, she took an early position, right?
00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:56.159
She was hearing on the doors people were anxious about this.
00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:03.440
It didn't align with her vision of a society controlled, you know, by the working class, not by the ruling class.
00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:20.080
Uh, and uh, and so it was very natural for us to really drive this wedge issue, seeing that within that Democratic Party, right, there are these insurgent, upstart, um, Democratic Socialist candidates, uh, and then there's the establishment, right?
00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:33.759
Which to this point has been all in on uh on the data center piece because they're already in relationship with the chambers of commerce, Google, Amazon, obviously Intel, laid the groundwork, right?
00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:41.600
Um yeah, so uh I think tactics-wise, right, which was a you know, I appreciate the question.
00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:45.519
Um, a big part has been calling for moratoria, right?
00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:50.799
Um, but I think bringing in that sort of democratic socialist difference, right?
00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:59.200
This is not just lobbying, right, in the offices of the state house or you know, going to the advisory committee with the presentations.
00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:02.559
Uh, it's been bringing in the mass action piece, right?
00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:11.919
So there's a statewide petition that was launched by uh Eugene, DSA endorsed candidate for State House, uh Chi Fireside.
00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:17.120
Uh, and it's been a real rallying point to demonstrate that sort of mass pushback.
00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:25.519
So uh there's a petition currently happening, and then there's also this primary that you said, I think that it starts next week.
00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:27.600
Ballots are ballots are out now.
00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:28.960
Ballots are out now.
00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:29.519
Yeah.
00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:33.519
So what what is the relationship of that to Tammy's candidacy?
00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:37.759
Like, I mean, you said that she's going out on the doors, so she's part of the campaign.
00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:43.440
Your chapter and also Eugene is backing her, but then what who is she running against?
00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:49.120
And is there like a kind of fight there that can be also further seized upon and sort of scaffolded?
00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:50.080
Absolutely.
00:11:50.240 --> 00:12:00.080
Um, so like I said, right, this has all been happening in the background of the Democratic Party establishment for a long time, the sort of groundwork for these this data center build-out.
00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:06.480
And so our work has been really to um do some political education for the masses, right?
00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:21.120
Um there's it's certainly not the case that you can open up campaign finance for um for Tammy's opponent, uh Ashley Hartmeyer Prigg, and find, for example, a ton of data center companies that are giving her money, right?
00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:22.480
That's not what you'll find.
00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:41.600
What you'll find instead, right, are political action committees, uh business lobbies, right, and money from other establishment Democratic Party incumbents, right, who are themselves funded by uh groups you do know, like Google, like Amazon, right, like Intel.
00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:46.000
Um and so you can see that there's money flowing into this race, right?
00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:51.519
Um obviously it's not just because of the opposition to data centers, right?
00:12:51.679 --> 00:13:06.320
Um Tammy Carpenter is a huge champion for um universal health plan in Oregon, um, huge champion for um the quality education model, so proper funding of public schools, um big support for workers on strike.
00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:12.720
Um and those are all interests, right, opposed by the sort of political economy of data centers, right?
00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:14.159
Big business, et cetera.
00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:16.799
Um so that's really started to loom large.
00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.200
I'll share this, just came out today.
00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:30.639
Um, one of our um corporate-funded alternative uh weekly magazines, the Willamette Week, which has certainly not been a friend of uh working class politics.
00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:52.399
Uh they went ahead and endorsed Tammy Carpenter today, which was a bit of a surprise, though I think you know, you look at 40,000 doors knocked for Tammy Carpenter's campaign in a statehouse district, the data center issue looming really large in the public consciousness between these candidates.
00:13:52.559 --> 00:14:02.159
Um, we think that uh the Will Ammet Week saw the writing on the wall uh in endorsing uh a challenger to the Democratic Party establishment running as an open socialist.
00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:18.320
That's so interesting because what you're saying about the uh sort of like indirect, you know, channeling of money into someone's uh candidacy in order to kind of like, you know, create uh an ally in the data centers.
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:30.639
It reminds me of a couple of years ago, um the congressional races were defined in some places by opposition to or support of crypto, but it wasn't being put out like that, right?
00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:58.000
And and that kind of funding model has been something that a lot of um sort of like tech billionaires and Silicon Valley venture capitalists have been um really capitalizing on, pun intended, um, you know, um over the last few years, because they've realized too that the kinds of things that they want to um bring about, obviously we're talking here about an industry model, but one that they also want to integrate into people's lives without consent.
00:14:58.159 --> 00:14:59.679
It's not a consumer model.
00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:03.039
What it is is a sort of like social transformative model.
00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:04.159
I'm an educator.
00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:09.200
So AI, of course, has a very special place in hell in my body.
00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:38.480
And I'm not gonna tell you what part that because of the fact that um I'm seeing all kinds of effects, and it's not just my irritation at the use of it for cheating, it's also about the way in which it is actively um causing um, let's just say serious issues with people's capacity to learn, to retain information, to do um the things that I think all socialists should think are about being able to develop human capacity, right?
00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:43.120
Um, so to me, this has like a very high ethical tenor.
00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:55.360
Um, but the way that you just put it together too shows that this is this is about the political economy of this being part of a whole package of capitalist kind of advancement, right?
00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:57.840
It's about being able to keep taxes low.
00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:09.279
It's about being able to um, you know, uh ensure that the health insurance industry and, you know, sort of like the healthcare conglomerates are still doing well.
00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:18.720
Um, in some ways, it's the ways that the capitalist class, the ruling class, expresses its solidarity is through this kind of campaigning, right?
00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:32.000
And um also about, you know, trying to support centrist Democrats or, you know, what we would probably call right wingers that are just called Democrats in office and saying this is the sensible solution.
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:43.440
Um, I am curious though, you know, you said this this weekly paper um has has endorsed uh your candidate, which is like, you know, nice surprise, you know, you'll take it, right?
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:47.279
But then there's also been attacks on on the the campaign, right?
00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:52.159
Like you've been um, you know, there's been lively opposition.
00:16:52.240 --> 00:17:02.720
So maybe you can talk to uh talk about some of the ways that that's expressed itself and like kind of what your your campaign has done to either fight back or whether you've had to.
00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:04.160
Sure, absolutely.
00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:14.160
So I think, you know, in relationship to our endorsed candidate for State House, Tammy Carpenter, um, you know, she has suffered attacks from the establishment.
00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:31.440
Um, one of the incumbent Democratic State House members, uh, Lisa Reynolds, uh, who represents one of the wealthier parts of town in southwest Portland, um, she penned a letter to the editor, op-ed, um, you know, attacking Tammy and endorsing her opponent, right?
00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:33.359
The sort of incumbent favorite.
00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:35.200
Uh, and it was interesting.
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:49.039
It is rare uh in sort of genteel Democratic Party politics in Oregon for an incumbent to attack a hopeful for an open seat, right?
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:52.240
And so I think that's worth emphasizing, right?
00:17:52.400 --> 00:18:06.720
There is not an interest for the Democratic Party here and for their backers in the corporate world to allow any kind of insurgent, left-wing, principled uh uh socialist in office, right?
00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:10.640
Uh, even in a situation where it's a safe seat, right?
00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:15.200
Right, blue no matter who, right, does not apply sort of classic scenario here.
00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:23.359
Um, and it's also worth, I think, thinking more about why it's so urgent a task for the political establishment here.
00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:34.480
Um, you mentioned, you know, as an educator, the impact of AI, which is of course, you know, required uh uh infrastructure related to these data centers and vice versa.
00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:45.599
Um, I know that uh there is a firm here called Sightline, uh, which makes drone equipment for the Israeli army.
00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:51.359
And they are based here in Portland and they rely on AI for their targeting.
00:18:51.759 --> 00:19:01.200
Um they put a really scary video out on their website um that was a flyover of uh of downtown Portland.
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:05.599
Wow was it like super detailed and you can see people and stuff?
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:16.240
Yeah, I mean it's you know, it's it's hard not to imagine uh a camera of that clarity flying over Gaza, right, during the genocide uh right now.
00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:29.440
And and so I think as much as this fight is about data centers, right, and the impact they have domestically, right, the political economy, of course, knows no borders, right?
00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:35.440
This is an internationalist fight uh against the the impacts of American empire.
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:37.839
Um, and that's happening in Portland, right?
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:43.519
That's not relegated to you know Raytheon Acres in Washington, DC, right?
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:44.720
That's happening here.
00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:47.359
Yeah, no, that's a that's a really great point.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:20:02.880
And of course, um, so much of this has been focused on these bigger, more flashy uh companies like Palantir, owned by Peter Thiel, who is a very like, you know, open, we'll call him a public intellectual to be kind, but a public something, right?
00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.559
Like, and who's been very like in support of Trump and everything.
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:16.319
But there are also all these little firms dotted all over Silicon Valley, reaching up into Portland, reaching up into Seattle, that also are involved in this, right?
00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:25.920
It's a it's a whole like interwoven industry that it's it's it's just kind of it's it can be overwhelming to think about.
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.240
And and this is also, you know, where this debate comes in, right?
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:41.920
What's like what are what is the right tactic when we're talking about things so local, like stopping a data center being built in your, you know, your county or something, right?
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:46.559
Like that, like either doing like a uh a one-year moratorium.
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:50.960
Some places have done one-year moratorium, some places are trying to change the law altogether, right?
00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:53.359
Like um and and ban them.
00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:57.839
Um, but there have been a couple of articles that have come out in Jacobin.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:21.759
Um, one by a woman named Holly Buck, uh, who argues that essentially this is just um going to result in more inequality, offshoring uh these kinds of buildings, or this this kind of like generation of uh power, data, whatever, um, to other places, and therefore not internationalist because you're just, you know, kind of shunting it off elsewhere.
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:29.599
Um, a kind of she she describes it as NIMBYism, but like in this data center kind of way, uh, NIMBYism not in my backyard.
00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:42.240
And then today another article came up that is saying, no, these moratorium is act are actually the start of democratic governance, um, because Buck argues we need to regulate this democratically.
00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:45.119
We're this moratoria is not gonna work.
00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:47.839
He says, no, this is the beginning of the fight, right?
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.000
This is how we we start doing this.
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:57.519
I'm interested when you say the democratic socialist difference, you could be talking about a number of things, but one of them is about mass action, right?
00:21:57.599 --> 00:21:59.519
It's not about localism.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:04.160
In the strict sense, but the local is often where you begin, right?
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:10.720
So you've you you mentioned political education, but I'm kind of wondering like, what's your thought and your political analysis of this?
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:28.079
Um the sort of contradictions inherent here, you know, when we're talking about something like stopping the data center in your community, that's what everyone goes in on, but then they're just going to build it in the community next door, the, you know, the state next door, um, or the country next door, or what have you.
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:33.680
Um, what do you feel is is kind of where you stand or like the purchase you feel that argument has.
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:34.960
Let's talk.
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:36.799
Yeah, what what's your what's your thought?
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:37.839
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:44.240
I mean, I think first it's important to recognize that we have to contend with real contradictions, right?
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:50.880
It's not simply a matter of saying, data center bad, data center out of my community, right?
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:59.680
Uh, because we know that, you know, the politics of capital that that transcends state and it transcends states, as in countries, right?
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:03.519
Um, we live in a transnational uh capital world, right?
00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.640
Even though as humans we only live in one place at a time.
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:08.880
Um, so that that's attention, right?
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:17.759
Um, I think it's worth also being really straightforward and saying that um, you know, this is a uh sort of a pyramid of firms, right?
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:27.440
And in Oregon, the companies that do the actual build-out, right, are often uh union represented construction firms, right?
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:30.400
That um that are being sought out, right?
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:35.519
Obviously, union labor is gonna provide a higher uh quality of labor, right?
00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:40.000
Uh and there's also a value that's you know progressive Portland, right?
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:41.680
That we want union labor.
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:56.960
Um, so I don't think that anyone who's dealing seriously with the contradictions of the data center movement can look anyone in the eye who's a member of a building trades union and say, um, you have an obligation not to work, not to get your bag.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:23:58.960
I mean, that's ridiculous, right?
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:03.599
Um, who who amongst us, right, can can really make that claim.
00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:17.200
I think what's more interesting and useful is to think about what is it about our society and about the political economy here, right, where those are the stable good jobs, right?
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:22.240
For you know, union tradespeople or non-union tradespeople, even.
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:24.640
And, you know, there's a lot of history there.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:32.079
You can go back to the end of the dominant industry in Oregon, which was of course timber, right?
00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:40.559
And the sort of build-out of the public sector after that time created two groups of really good jobs, right?
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:46.240
Direct public sector jobs, and then money that went to public-private partnership, right?
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:50.319
And the blossoming of a sort of domestic union construction industry.
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:53.920
Um, but uh you also have to look around, right?
00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:57.279
You know, roads in terrible condition here, right?
00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:05.039
The the high school I went to in Portland, right, is is decades and decades old, falling apart, ceiling tiles falling off, right?
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:06.480
Asbestos, right?
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:08.160
The water fountains don't work.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:21.759
There is a lot of work to do, but the political economy is saying, let's spend public money in the form of tax breaks in this case, for the benefit of private interest building these data centers.
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:29.599
And let's continue to neglect, right, the the needs that society actually has that would really build out um good jobs.
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:33.039
And I have to say this sort of in conclusion on this point, right?
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:39.759
Um, there there is political consciousness within the building trades unions here, right?
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:41.680
They realize the contradiction.
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:50.079
Um, you know, they're not they're they're gonna give us a hard time when the local electricians union published a warning to their members, you know, careful of DSA.
00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:52.000
They said actually something funny.
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:59.680
They said, we agree with them on a lot of things, which I thought was a wonderful admission to put to have to put in writing, but but they were clear, right?
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:04.400
DSA opposes these data centers, you know, consult with us before you get involved.
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:07.440
And and I get it, that's not offensive to me, right?
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:15.920
Um, but I think it also reflects a fairly narrow vision of the work that needs to be done to benefit society.
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:19.200
And that requires reckoning with the political economy.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:25.680
Yeah, and I think the the sort of blindsidedness I think a lot of people were taken by, right?
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:32.559
It's like the data centers have been, it seems they've just sort of sprung up from nowhere, right?
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:34.240
It's like it's a it's a boom, right?
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:35.920
It's an industry boom.
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:50.000
And the point you just made, which is that we could actually have steady, good paying work that's about protecting the public infrastructure we both already do have, and that could be for the benefit of society.
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:53.839
Some people say these data centers are for the benefit of society.
00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:00.880
They are, you know, um, about potentially making this stuff available to everyone, you know.
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:10.000
Um, I'm I'm maybe being a little bit obviously devil's advocate here, considering what I just said about how I feel about data centers.
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:17.200
But this idea that, like, no, these the these are going to be part of the public infrastructure, right?
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:18.480
That this is inevitable.
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:21.920
This is um uh like any technological boom.
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:27.039
Some people compare it to the internet, but you could even say it's it's like trains or like something else.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:28.640
Yeah.
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:30.960
Well, we know about that too.
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:34.319
Um very controversial uh choice there.
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:44.880
But but nonetheless, like, you know, what would you say to someone who's like, okay, look, like we understand that right now it's terrifying everyone because it seems so sudden, but this is just technological progress.
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:53.359
And this is something that we as socialists need to take advantage of and reclaim or like figure out how we're gonna relate to it, right?
00:27:53.599 --> 00:28:05.039
Relate to it politically, relate to it both morally in the sense of our own, you know, sort of political agency, how we like put that into the world, but also collectively, right?
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:07.920
Like how we wrap ourselves around this.
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:13.119
I've talked to some people who've said, uh, you know, this is the cat's out of the bag.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:15.519
You cannot, you cannot uh, you know, get rid of this.
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:17.599
So we have to, we have to relate to it.
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:26.240
Then those who just say, well, personally boycotting it or or um, you know, preferring not to use it, that's just putting your head in the sand.
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.839
So, you know, you need to get with the program.
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:42.079
And then those who have like more of a nuanced view are like, like I said, you uh we need to be strategic in our relationship with this because it's it's unstoppable.
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:44.480
Um, I'm not gonna say what I really think right now.
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:47.759
I want to know what you think, and then we can we can talk about it.
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:50.079
That's a that's a great, great, good framing.
00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:56.319
So, right, I mean, you know, you can be very upset as I am about what's happening, but it's happening, right?
00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:03.440
And there's some sobriety in just recognizing the sort of march of technological development, right?
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:05.359
But why is that happening?
00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:09.440
Um, I think that's really where we have to locate some of the conversation, right?
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:16.240
I think again, you you referenced sort of the historical development of technology under capitalism, right?
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:21.519
The impetus for technological development often has to do with labor saving, right?
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:28.000
Reducing the cost of labor, which is capital's largest expense for generating profit.
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:42.640
Uh, and you know, I think whether you're talking about AI's use in education, right, which is not just about sort of labor saving on an FTE basis, but also about privatization of public education, right?
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:46.160
The ultimate labor savings for the capitalist class, right?
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:47.759
Not having to fund public ed.
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.200
Also really big in healthcare, right?
00:29:51.519 --> 00:30:00.880
Where AI is sort of furthering and speeding the alienation that patients experience with the people who take care of them, right?
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:05.920
You have the the remote nurse, the the sort of AI provider, right?
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:09.519
Um those things are happening, they're not prospective, right?
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:19.200
And so if that is a world that is not uh suitable, right, for human flourishing, the question is what do we do?
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:26.319
And I think the word moratoria, right, for these these moratoriums is is useful, right?
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:31.119
Um well here's the thing, right?
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:41.119
Whatever you want, I think there has to be recognition that for the for the working class, the people that are impacted disproportionately by AI and data centers, right?
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:42.240
We have to have power.
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:44.000
We have to have leverage.
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:49.119
This is not a question of developing the perfect policy perspective, right?
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:55.359
Um, this is a question of who gets to decide, right, how to split up the resources.
00:30:55.519 --> 00:31:00.640
And that's to build data centers, that's the resources that data centers produce, right?
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:09.119
Um, you know, I think what we're seeing is that data centers are concentrating capital significantly, right?
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:20.960
Um, I know in the in the the the article you referenced from Jacobin by Holly Buck, um there was some pitch about how no, no, data centers will allow us to to decarbonize, right?
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:31.680
The implication being that we can um convert fossil fuel uh energy infrastructure to uh non-carbon forms of energy production, right?
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:36.000
Um that's not what we're seeing, first of all.
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:38.960
Also, why do you need data centers to do that?
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:41.839
Well, you know, you know, it's like there's many choices.
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:49.920
Anyway, sorry to interrupt, but no, no, I mean I mean it it has to be it has to be confronted on its face and also by you know its implication, right?
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:55.839
Um data centers uh will increase significantly the demand for energy.
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:56.319
Yep.
00:31:56.480 --> 00:31:59.839
Energy that is not being produced right now, right?
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:12.640
And it is ludicrous uh to contend that building more data centers will provide some impetus or capital to fund uh non-carbon power generation.
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:23.119
You know, I I live in Oregon, we're taking down dams because of their devastating impact to ecology and the rights of indigenous people, right?
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:35.039
Uh, and there is simply not any source of energy production here that will uh feed the beast of data center development besides gas, right?
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:36.720
And that's not my contention.
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:41.599
Ask the investor-owned gas utility in Oregon, Northwest Natural.
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:53.680
They put out a report last year that makes it very clear, and they are salivating, donating to establish democratic candidates and incumbents because they're here to capitalize.
00:32:53.839 --> 00:33:01.359
So, again, capital concentration from the data centers undermines the political power of the working class.
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:02.880
It's not an opportunity.
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:20.720
Yeah, I'm from Alaska and the um ping pong administrative kind of ball that they play with the um Anwar, the um Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, um, Mary Peltola, who was the one-term actually pretty good on labor, to be honest.
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:23.039
Like she didn't break the railway strike.
00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:25.359
You know, she was one of eight uh Congresspeople.
00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:37.680
She eagerly sided with the Trump administration or the Biden administration to open up Anwar and to um have that be, you know, kind of like open season.
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:44.559
Partly, you know, she explained why she's like, you know, good jobs, you know, benefit, you know, economic benefits, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:33:45.039 --> 00:34:01.359
But it was like there is this sense of um the idea that this is all zero sum or that there's some kind of like, oh, well, data centers are somehow the only answer to um, you know, generating clean energy.
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:09.039
It's like, like you said, it's it's a wild thing to say, precisely because it's like, but we aren't using that energy.
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:10.960
We don't need to use that energy.
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:23.360
And this isn't even a degrowth kind of thing where you're saying we need to reduce the amount of energy we need, and which is a whole other debate, of course, regarding like what we can actually do, what will actually sustain life, all of those things.
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:31.760
It's more like, and I really like the way you put it, you know, um, what is human, you know, like where does human flourishing fit in here?
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:37.840
You know, what do we actually not just need to live, but need to be human and flourish?
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:41.360
And I would have to say, now you're gonna find out what I really think.
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:44.559
This, none of this, none of this is doing that, right?
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:45.760
It's not doing it now.
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:51.440
And it's and and there's been few arguments that I've found persuasive that it will do it in the future.
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:57.840
Not only right now, AI is being used to kind of generate some of the nastiest stuff you've ever seen.
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:04.800
And also, like I mentioned, it is not uh prompting um a lot of creative thought among, you know, amongst people.
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:11.760
It's not, it's not providing time saving for anyone except for capital, right?
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:27.039
Um and uh, you know, don't want to like completely derail our conversation to talk about all of our irritations with with all the various ways that we have to, you know, have our lives interrupted and like kind of deal with this AI thing.
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:41.360
But I I do think that socialists do have an analysis that does marry the political economy of this with a broader conception of what it means to actually flourish socially and individually as people.
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:47.440
Um, and you kind of talked about, you know, your irritation with the with the article.
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:53.599
My own sense is that this person is kind of, yeah, like kind of saying, like, this is inevitable.
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:58.079
And so therefore, we only have one choice, and it's not to stop anything.
00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:06.639
But I mean, that is to me, why would you tell people don't get in the way of this, don't get in the way of development?
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:16.320
Because historically, collective action has stopped communities from being destroyed when people are actually able to get in um early enough.
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:23.039
And in your view, do you think that it is early enough, at least in in your sort of assessment of the campaign?
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:35.280
Um, or do you feel that it's um similar to what uh Aaron Rigenberg, uh, who also wrote for Jacobin, is kind of saying this is actually just a way for people to kind of begin the democratic process here.
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:39.440
Um, that's not all he says, but I just trying to kind of give the landscape.
00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:44.320
But basically, my question to you is um, how do you feel about this?
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:58.800
Uh, like the the prospect of success, uh, both for Tammy, of course, you know, good luck, Tammy, but um also just to actually really stop this and to chase them away or or or get them to whatever, disappear.
00:36:59.119 --> 00:36:59.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:00.159
Bye-bye.
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:01.360
So I think it's both.
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:02.639
I think it's it's both, right?
00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:05.039
And and cause for optimism on both fronts.
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:09.280
So I think first, um, you know, we're not, it's not too late, right?
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:16.400
Uh, mostly because we're on this, you know, uh marble hurtling through the galaxy, slowly burning up, right?
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:26.480
So the the urgency is there, and uh, you know, I think you can orient to that sort of fatalistically, um, either on the data center front or broadly.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:28.480
I I I think it's about inspiration.
00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:45.280
You know, here in Portland, uh in uh, you know, in the 70s, there was a grassroots revolt against uh a massive plan to build freeways, excuse me, build freeways uh throughout the metro area and here in Portland, right?
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:51.199
And uh there were parts of that resistance that were articulating it in ecological perspectives, right?
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:54.800
This is a build-out for the fossil fuel industry, right, etc.
00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:59.840
Um, but that grassroots movement was successful, right?
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:12.079
And whenever I drive over the Markham Bridge, which crosses the Willamette River into downtown Portland, you drive by the spur that they built for the Mount Hood Freeway.
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:14.639
And the Mount Hood Freeway was never constructed, right?
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:16.880
Those revolts were successful.
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:22.800
So um, in as much as I think we have an opportunity to have some inspiration from the past, right?
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:28.239
Um, we also have a present context that I think is also a cause for optimism.
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:41.679
I think this idea that this is an opportunity for the working class to build political power and political muscle that might even be expended beyond the data center issue, I think is also really exciting.
00:38:41.920 --> 00:39:00.880
There's, you know, a sort of, there's there's Tammy as a DSA leader, right, in on the West Side, but there's sort of a constellation of progressives that she's endorsed that are also united on this issue and have in common a left-wing sort of universal uh uh program, right?
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:03.840
That um I think is exciting, right?
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:11.280
You know, we have a ballot measure for uh universal health plan um likely next year.
00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:20.719
The same political incumbents that are for data centers are queasy or are in opposition to universal health plan.
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:22.800
And the remedy is the same, right?
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:32.960
An electoral program that is backed by mass action and large sections of the working class that are committed to that sort of socialist agenda.
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:40.400
Yeah, it's it's always, I mean, I'm really glad we're talking about this now, too, because I would like to continue the conversation with others.
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:51.199
Like hopefully we'll be able to talk to more people from other chapters who are working on this to talk specifically about what they've seen in their communities, um, the the kinds of maybe changes.
00:39:51.440 --> 00:40:08.239
You mentioned the um sort of uh the blessed, I won't say unholy, the blessed alliance of, you know, the sort of libertarian or like the don't tread on me right or the right leaning with uh kind of more radical, um, you know, socialist uh agenda.
00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:18.159
How have you seen uh changes happening like within the sort of um coalition that you've formed um amongst either individuals or like other groups?
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:20.719
Like have you seen people kind of leaning more towards DSA?
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:24.639
Have you seen people kind of start thinking about these things more holistically?
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:27.039
Maybe you could just share if you have any.
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:33.840
Yeah, so um, you know, as a as a chapter here in Portland, we have several of the suburban branches.
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:43.760
And and one of the main sites of struggle against the data centers is of course out in Washington County on the west side, um, where our Washington County branch is located.
00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:55.039
Uh, and there has been a real public profile of uh of a gentleman named Jacob Roloff, who is on a reality show that's that was uh sort of nationally famous.
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:58.239
Um and he, you know, is uh reality show, sorry.
00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:00.159
Uh no, I I I wish I knew.
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:05.199
It's about it's about a family of of little people that that live on a farm in Kinsborough.
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:13.039
Uh and I don't know the name, but um, but uh but at any rate, and and he's you know, he's leading this fight.
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:25.599
He just joined DSA, cut a great video about why he joined DSA as the site of struggle, not just against data centers, but for a broader progressive and socialist agenda.
00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:40.079
Um, so yeah, I think I think whether you're, you know, the the sort of Democratic Party, right, upset that DSA is taking this position of leadership, or you're just right, a normal person that is impacted and afflicted by these data centers.
00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:46.559
Um, there is absolutely, I think, uh new juice uh for our DSA project, which is super exciting.
00:41:46.880 --> 00:42:08.320
Yeah, and I I really do think, I mean, I've been thinking about this a lot, not just because of my own vocation, but also in relation to political education and like kind of what the socialist role is in political education at a time when actual education is being threatened by capital in such a direct way, you know.
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:20.719
It used to be kind of um gauche to actually come right out and say, yes, we think that AI should replace people and they, you know, kids shouldn't even read anymore, you know, or whatever.
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:23.760
You you wouldn't you wouldn't actually say those kinds of things.
00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:32.480
But but basically you hear people saying that kind of thing now, you know, like that um, you know, soon books will, you know, go away or or what have you.
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:57.519
Um, again, a little bit off the topic of this actual, you know, very rich discussion, but I do think that our role as political educators is also to help people um kind of talk to each other, figure out what it is they really think, figure out what kinds of questions to ask and say, you know, I'm not just annoyed that these people are building this ugly building near my house.
00:42:57.679 --> 00:43:06.239
This actually has to do with like a bigger mission of humanity, you know, like that that we call socialism, right?
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:12.559
And socialism is the project of transforming society, getting rid of capitalism, right?
00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:24.239
Not just creating pockets of tall like tolerance or creating pockets of kind of like um, you know, oh, this is a nice neighborhood or what have you, but we really we have a big project.
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:32.719
And have you found that people are thinking about that kind of thing when they're doing that local work and and they're maybe surprising themselves with the kinds of things they think now?
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:34.559
Yeah, absolutely.
00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:41.360
You know, we have an existing campaign within Portland DSA that is uh a fight for public power, right?
00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:54.159
I mentioned these investor owned utilities that provide uh gas and electricity in the case of Portland General Electric to uh most of the people that that live here.
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:57.679
Um Pacific Power is the other, the other bad guy in that trio.
00:43:58.079 --> 00:43:59.599
Um and so the public power.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:04.079
Campaign, right, which sort of predates our entry into the data center fight.
00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:06.960
Uh, the the dovetail is really clear, right?
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:11.599
The the political power we have to build to win public power, right?
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:15.280
To to sort of break the backs of these investor owned utilities.
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:18.239
Um, that that is to be built, right?
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:27.679
And the data center fight, I think, has been great opportunity to expose masses of people who may not have consciousness yet about public power, right?
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:31.760
Or they think public power is a small town thing in Oregon, right?
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:35.599
We have our, you know, people's districts, right, in in small parts of Oregon.
00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:36.719
Could you explain what that is?
00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:37.039
Sorry.
00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:38.000
Yeah, absolutely.
00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:42.639
So it's just a municipal, um, basically cooperative, right?
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:49.360
So if you're in a small town in Oregon, right, you can't afford to build uh energy infrastructure.
00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:56.239
Um uh and of course, if individuals were trying to purchase that on the open market from an investor and utility, right?
00:44:56.320 --> 00:44:58.000
It'd be prohibitively expensive, right?
00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:00.639
So it's a cooperative, a purchasing cooperative, right?
00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:03.599
Um but but that's not the case in Portland, right?
00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:05.599
We have all investor owned power here.
00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:20.079
And so um I think you know, our eco-socialist working group being able to meet people where they are on the data center issue and say, yeah, wouldn't it be great if Northwest Natural Gas, if PGE didn't even exist, right?
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:27.440
What a blow that would be to uh uh their support for data centers and to the data center project.
00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:30.639
So I think the connections are being made, which is very exciting.
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:31.840
That is so cool.
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:37.440
I mean, I I really do think that, and you know, debates will happen.
00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:49.840
This is unfolding very quickly, but I do think that the example of the Portland campaign and the way that your your chapter has also historically been able to kind of help people weave these things together and bring people in that way.
00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:53.679
It is it's kind of a natural in a lot of ways.
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:57.280
People are so upset that this stuff's being shoved down their throats, right?
00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:03.679
It feels undemocratic on its face, regardless of the fact that it's happening through these elected officials.
00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:09.199
So the contradictions that are really important here are the ones about we elected you to protect us.
00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:12.880
We elected you to you know to fight for us.
00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:18.719
And all you're doing is um turning our communities over to these developers and investors, right?
00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:22.880
Um, I think for a lot of people, it's very clear that this is wrong.
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:33.360
And then the socialist's mission is to try to help people um keep going, really, you know, like to keep on seeing these things in a non-conspiratorial kind of way, right?
00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:42.239
And to like, you know, sort of join with others in order to kind of make, yeah, to make public power happen in all in all aspects.
00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:42.880
Yeah.
00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:52.559
I mean, you you mentioned, if I can just jump in for a second, you you mentioned a couple of times quite accurately, right, the sort of threat of libertarian tradition, right, in Oregon.
00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:54.159
And it's real libertarianism.
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:55.280
It's not, you know, libertarianism.
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:56.239
Oh, I'm very aware.
00:46:56.800 --> 00:46:59.119
Except on election day when they're Republicans.
00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:02.960
Like these are often, you know, there's an absentiist tradition, et cetera, right?
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:03.760
As you know.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:14.159
Um, there is, I think, an interesting situation here developing where uh like so many people, libertarian or not, right?
00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:18.480
There is a lot of alienation from electoral politics, right?
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:22.880
Uh, and that gets often expressed in idiosyncratic ways, right?
00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:27.119
That's where you get some of the, as you mentioned, the conspiratorial thinking, right?
00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:32.400
You know, the sort of elite this and elite that, and it's like which big this, big that.
00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:35.519
Yeah, elite, what uh what elite are you talking about?
00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:42.000
Uh, but uh, but I think for DSA to be able to say, yes, this is the elite, right?
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:46.800
And it's not conspiratorial, it's analytical, it's a material analysis.
00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:51.840
It is showing what people are seeing with their own eyes, I think is so compelling.
00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:58.079
Um, I spoke to one of our uh electoral working group leaders who've done an incredible job, right?
00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:00.639
Knocking doors for Tammy and other candidates.
00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:05.199
And, you know, he told me that he's just been floored at the doors.
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:07.360
People want to talk about the data centers.
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:13.280
And he said it's such a rich jumping-off point to talk about the broader political economy, right?
00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:18.239
And and empowerment, like voting for this person, volunteering for this person, right?
00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:22.320
It's not just about like, you know, fighting Trump and the Democratic Party.
00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:24.639
It's like those, you know, fighting Trump's good, right?
00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:31.440
But um, but that's not uh, I think a relevant political project, right?
00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:35.119
That's a that's like a broad political sort of idea.
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:38.159
So that distinction I think is really meaningful to folks.
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:39.199
Thanks.
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:42.320
Thank you so much, Gabe, for for coming and talking to us.
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:44.239
I think that's a good place to leave off.
00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:50.800
And I'm really excited uh to find out what happens with the election and everything.
00:48:50.960 --> 00:49:14.000
I mean, it's as as terrifying as it can be sometimes to kind of like face down these relentless just evils, you know, like you know, just it can also just be so great to talk to folks to find out like really like what we're really doing, you know, like it's not just like turning up at city council or or what have you.
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:16.719
It's uh it is, like you said, a political project.
00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:18.800
And uh I'm really proud of it.
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:28.159
I'm really proud to be in DSA at times like this when we are not just meeting people where they're at, but also um helping people find their political agency.
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:36.400
I think that's one of the biggest uh things that we can do right now at a time when it does feel sometimes like this is so relentless, you know?
00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:38.159
Overwhelming, 100%.
00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:38.960
Yeah.
00:49:39.199 --> 00:49:41.360
Um, thank you so much, Gabe, again.
00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:45.119
And thanks to our production crew, Emma, Michael, and Tim, who put all this together.
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:56.800
Class is a podcast of DSA's National Political Education Committee, or NPEC, which works to expand the knowledge of DSA members and non-members in the service of winning the struggle for socialism and democracy.
00:49:57.039 --> 00:50:07.599
You can find out more about NPEC by searching for us online or following us on social media, but the best way to find out what our committee's up to is by signing up for Red Letter, NPEC's monthly newsletter.
00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:12.800
And if you aren't already, you can become a DSA member by following the link in the podcast description.
00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:15.519
Okay, until next time, solidarity.
00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:17.280
Hi comrades, and welcome to CLASS, the podcast of Democratic Socialists of America's National Political Education Committee, or NPEC.
00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:22.079
My name is Michaela, and I'm the current chair of NPEC and a member of North New Jersey DSA.
00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:35.280
In this episode, I'm talking with Gabe from Portland DSA on local data center moratoria and the potential contradictions and struggles that arise in the fight to preserve communities and advance a socialist, worker-centered political agenda.
00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:41.759
In the near future, we'll be keeping up on this topic with other comrades as this is an area of continuing development and debate.
00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:44.640
So consider this a part one with more to come.
00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:49.840
Before we dive in, a reminder that CLASS is available on all major podcast platforms.
00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:54.240
Please consider becoming a DSA member by following the link in the podcast description.
00:00:54.479 --> 00:01:00.719
You can also send us a message about the episode and sign up for Red Letter and Peck's Monthly Newsletter using the provided links.
00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:09.200
Another quick note: over the course of the next few months and through the summer, CLASS will be releasing episodes more intermittently than our usual once-a-week schedule.
00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:12.319
So don't forget to subscribe so you can catch them.
00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:32.640
There's a digital version or section of how people experience socialism now.
00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:41.680
But also to suggest there's a set of open questions in our political orientation towards tech and the digital or online realm that need to be explored.
00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:48.640
In that episode, we touched on social media and the idea of making our own digital tools as a step towards political independence.
00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:59.040
And now, several weeks later, it seems like everyone is talking almost exclusively about AI and data centers, and what, if anything, socialists should fight for in the short and long terms.
00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:04.480
Some chapters are going all in on local campaigns to delay data center construction in their areas.
00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:21.120
Some people are debating the effectiveness of boycotts or these kinds of moratorium campaigns and advocating for democratization instead, but still others in the labor movement are warning that demonizing data center construction is a betrayal to union workers who are advantaged by the current building boom.
00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:43.120
It's a live debate, and one that whether you believe that AI is inevitable or not, or to what degree, implies that socialists ought to think about this as a powerful industrial infrastructure and intervene not just ethically or on the basis of individual preference, but with a principled political analysis and an eye towards something more than just stopping them.
00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:53.840
So here we have Gabe, a member of Portland DSA, a nurses union representative, and a member of Bread and Roses Caucus to talk about the campaign his chapter is working on.
00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:55.520
Gabe, welcome to class.
00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:57.680
Hey, great to be here, Michaela.
00:02:58.080 --> 00:02:59.919
All right, thank you so much for coming on.
00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:04.000
Um, we always start with the same question for everyone who's new on the podcast.
00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:06.639
Um, how and why did you become a socialist?
00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:08.639
And how and why did you join DSA?
00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:09.759
Sure.
00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:13.840
Um I grew up here in Portland uh in a labor family.
00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:19.680
Uh my father was a longtime uh rank and file activist in the teachers' unions here.
00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:30.479
Uh and you know, I think that just gave me a baseline for you know what it means to be a member of the working class, um, but very much in the confines of capitalism.
00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:40.639
Um I think graduating high school, you know, 2009, during the Great Recession, those contradictions of capitalism uh were really clear to me.
00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:44.319
Uh, and over time, uh, it led me to socialism.
00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:53.199
And I'm a member of DSA because uh it is uh the best chance we have as a working class to uh fight for a socialist future.
00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:56.719
So you came to socialism through the labor movement.
00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:11.680
So you obviously be very sensitive and attentive to these questions about whether the data center boom is actually something that um needs to be kind of put into the category of labor rights in this global way.
00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:30.000
And we'll get to talking about that because right now your chapter is running a campaign or helping to run a campaign in connection with your socialists in office um cadre candidates and um elected officials to uh put a moratorium on uh the local data center.
00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:47.600
Um I can speak just interestingly enough, my brother is a builder, um, non-union uh at the moment, but he was uh in a union shop to build data centers in Oregon, not in your area, but like uh sort of eastern Oregon area.
00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:52.000
And um he was, it was like the most steady work he'd ever had.
00:04:52.160 --> 00:05:01.600
Um so I'm also really interested to talk about this because it seems to be something that is um kind of another layer on top of this.
00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:14.639
And you and I both know that uh we can't just kind of shunt off like worker interest off from these kind of like more political ethical questions that people are really seizing upon right now.
00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:18.319
Um, so let's just start with talking about your campaign.
00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:27.199
Um, how did your chapter get involved in this uh area of this arena of uh data center politics and what has it been like for y'all?
00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:28.399
Yeah, absolutely.
00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:38.639
I mean, first important point to call out is that we're certainly not the origin by any means of resistance to uh data center build-outs here in Oregon.
00:05:38.800 --> 00:06:04.399
Um, you know, last several years, like in many places in the country, uh, the sort of hyperscaler firms, Google, Amazon, et cetera, have been working with regional and national data center developers to build these massive data centers, as you mentioned in eastern Oregon, uh, certainly, and now increasingly in the western suburbs of Portland in the Hillsboro area.
00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:13.279
And so even from the beginning, there was uh a real grassroots resistance that reflected, you know, different interests, right?
00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:21.279
This is not something that was incubated in DSA, reflects the thinking only of socialists, right?
00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:32.800
Um, these are folks who are upset about the ecological impact, upset about the uh degradation of uh the agrarian environment where they live.
00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:41.120
They're upset about uh the sort of promise of these amazing jobs that that don't tend to be sustainable or materialize.
00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:43.920
Um, and they're upset about the political corruption, right?
00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:47.279
There's a ton of money flowing into Oregon.
00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:55.040
Um and I think like a lot of Western states, there is frankly a bipartisan culture that's resistant to outside capital.
00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:57.600
Um, at least uh that's how people feel.
00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:02.800
So we just oriented to that, and it's become a big issue in these uh upcoming elections.
00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:12.319
When you say bipartisan, what you mean is that there's a kind of um libertarian tradition in the Pacific Northwest, where I used to live, um, that is not leftist, right?
00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:28.079
It's kind of more um you mentioned agrarianism, but it's also about kind of like land, and um, there's a conservation aspect to it that's also about very much about private ownership and the sort of don't tread on me gun culture.
00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:31.040
Um very, very prevalent in in Oregon.
00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:36.000
Um, but then also it's a hotbed of um the opposite in many ways.
00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:38.480
Um, you know, Portland, I used to live in Seattle.
00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:47.199
It's the left there is has always been um extremely kind of like um direct action-oriented.
00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:55.920
And so this is an interesting one because a lot of these data center uh kinds of fights are happening within like city councils and that kind of thing.
00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:01.920
So maybe you can talk a little bit about what the tactics have been like so far and like kind of what the buildup has looked like.
00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:09.439
And in particular, if you could speak to the ways that your um um local electeds, especially DSA electeds, have been involved.
00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:13.040
And maybe some I know that there's also been some backlash recently.
00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:24.319
So just kind of take us through the journey that uh you and uh Portland DSA and anyone else who you think um has kind of come up in this, uh has taken through this.
00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:25.839
Yeah, absolutely.
00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:38.639
Um, so I mean, I think you know, folks can imagine that there's sort of a broad nonprofit, you know, milie here that's grounded in either the environmental movement or sort of the land use movement.
00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:44.559
Um, and you know, they have been uh producing some of the technical opposition, right?
00:08:44.639 --> 00:08:48.639
Um the governor has uh an advisory uh council now.
00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:55.200
That was sort of her orientation to this surprise pushback on the data centers, uh, Governor Tina Kotek.
00:08:55.440 --> 00:09:02.000
Uh and uh so the sort of nonprofit groups have been, you know, supplying the research, the data, et cetera, which is huge, right?
00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:04.399
That's not work that DSA is necessarily doing.
00:09:04.559 --> 00:09:12.000
Um, what I think has been missing and what we try and embody is um uh a political economy, right?
00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:19.360
Like who are the big corporations that are spending money to support uh politicians?
00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:24.559
And in the metro area, we're talking about a fight within their Democratic Party, right?
00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:26.240
Almost exclusively.
00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:29.759
Um, and how is that money influencing policy?
00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:49.840
Um, we've had this incredible opportunity with this May primary for these nonpartisan statehouse seats in Oregon, uh, where we have already endorsed an incredible, you know, cadre candidate, Democratic Socialist, uh Tammy Carpenter, uh, running for State House in Beaverton, one of those western suburbs of Portland.
00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:53.120
Uh and, you know, she took an early position, right?
00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:56.159
She was hearing on the doors people were anxious about this.
00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:03.440
It didn't align with her vision of a society controlled, you know, by the working class, not by the ruling class.
00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:20.080
Uh, and uh, and so it was very natural for us to really drive this wedge issue, seeing that within that Democratic Party, right, there are these insurgent, upstart, um, Democratic Socialist candidates, uh, and then there's the establishment, right?
00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:33.759
Which to this point has been all in on uh on the data center piece because they're already in relationship with the chambers of commerce, Google, Amazon, obviously Intel, laid the groundwork, right?
00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:41.600
Um yeah, so uh I think tactics-wise, right, which was a you know, I appreciate the question.
00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:45.519
Um, a big part has been calling for moratoria, right?
00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:50.799
Um, but I think bringing in that sort of democratic socialist difference, right?
00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:59.200
This is not just lobbying, right, in the offices of the state house or you know, going to the advisory committee with the presentations.
00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:02.559
Uh, it's been bringing in the mass action piece, right?
00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:11.919
So there's a statewide petition that was launched by uh Eugene, DSA endorsed candidate for State House, uh Chi Fireside.
00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:17.120
Uh, and it's been a real rallying point to demonstrate that sort of mass pushback.
00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:25.519
So uh there's a petition currently happening, and then there's also this primary that you said, I think that it starts next week.
00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:27.600
Ballots are ballots are out now.
00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:28.960
Ballots are out now.
00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:29.519
Yeah.
00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:33.519
So what what is the relationship of that to Tammy's candidacy?
00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:37.759
Like, I mean, you said that she's going out on the doors, so she's part of the campaign.
00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:43.440
Your chapter and also Eugene is backing her, but then what who is she running against?
00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:49.120
And is there like a kind of fight there that can be also further seized upon and sort of scaffolded?
00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:50.080
Absolutely.
00:11:50.240 --> 00:12:00.080
Um, so like I said, right, this has all been happening in the background of the Democratic Party establishment for a long time, the sort of groundwork for these this data center build-out.
00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:06.480
And so our work has been really to um do some political education for the masses, right?
00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:21.120
Um there's it's certainly not the case that you can open up campaign finance for um for Tammy's opponent, uh Ashley Hartmeyer Prigg, and find, for example, a ton of data center companies that are giving her money, right?
00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:22.480
That's not what you'll find.
00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:41.600
What you'll find instead, right, are political action committees, uh business lobbies, right, and money from other establishment Democratic Party incumbents, right, who are themselves funded by uh groups you do know, like Google, like Amazon, right, like Intel.
00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:46.000
Um and so you can see that there's money flowing into this race, right?
00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:51.519
Um obviously it's not just because of the opposition to data centers, right?
00:12:51.679 --> 00:13:06.320
Um Tammy Carpenter is a huge champion for um universal health plan in Oregon, um, huge champion for um the quality education model, so proper funding of public schools, um big support for workers on strike.
00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:12.720
Um and those are all interests, right, opposed by the sort of political economy of data centers, right?
00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:14.159
Big business, et cetera.
00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:16.799
Um so that's really started to loom large.
00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.200
I'll share this, just came out today.
00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:30.639
Um, one of our um corporate-funded alternative uh weekly magazines, the Willamette Week, which has certainly not been a friend of uh working class politics.
00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:52.399
Uh they went ahead and endorsed Tammy Carpenter today, which was a bit of a surprise, though I think you know, you look at 40,000 doors knocked for Tammy Carpenter's campaign in a statehouse district, the data center issue looming really large in the public consciousness between these candidates.
00:13:52.559 --> 00:14:02.159
Um, we think that uh the Will Ammet Week saw the writing on the wall uh in endorsing uh a challenger to the Democratic Party establishment running as an open socialist.
00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:18.320
That's so interesting because what you're saying about the uh sort of like indirect, you know, channeling of money into someone's uh candidacy in order to kind of like, you know, create uh an ally in the data centers.
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:30.639
It reminds me of a couple of years ago, um the congressional races were defined in some places by opposition to or support of crypto, but it wasn't being put out like that, right?
00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:58.000
And and that kind of funding model has been something that a lot of um sort of like tech billionaires and Silicon Valley venture capitalists have been um really capitalizing on, pun intended, um, you know, um over the last few years, because they've realized too that the kinds of things that they want to um bring about, obviously we're talking here about an industry model, but one that they also want to integrate into people's lives without consent.
00:14:58.159 --> 00:14:59.679
It's not a consumer model.
00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:03.039
What it is is a sort of like social transformative model.
00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:04.159
I'm an educator.
00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:09.200
So AI, of course, has a very special place in hell in my body.
00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:38.480
And I'm not gonna tell you what part that because of the fact that um I'm seeing all kinds of effects, and it's not just my irritation at the use of it for cheating, it's also about the way in which it is actively um causing um, let's just say serious issues with people's capacity to learn, to retain information, to do um the things that I think all socialists should think are about being able to develop human capacity, right?
00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:43.120
Um, so to me, this has like a very high ethical tenor.
00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:55.360
Um, but the way that you just put it together too shows that this is this is about the political economy of this being part of a whole package of capitalist kind of advancement, right?
00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:57.840
It's about being able to keep taxes low.
00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:09.279
It's about being able to um, you know, uh ensure that the health insurance industry and, you know, sort of like the healthcare conglomerates are still doing well.
00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:18.720
Um, in some ways, it's the ways that the capitalist class, the ruling class, expresses its solidarity is through this kind of campaigning, right?
00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:32.000
And um also about, you know, trying to support centrist Democrats or, you know, what we would probably call right wingers that are just called Democrats in office and saying this is the sensible solution.
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:43.440
Um, I am curious though, you know, you said this this weekly paper um has has endorsed uh your candidate, which is like, you know, nice surprise, you know, you'll take it, right?
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:47.279
But then there's also been attacks on on the the campaign, right?
00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:52.159
Like you've been um, you know, there's been lively opposition.
00:16:52.240 --> 00:17:02.720
So maybe you can talk to uh talk about some of the ways that that's expressed itself and like kind of what your your campaign has done to either fight back or whether you've had to.
00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:04.160
Sure, absolutely.
00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:14.160
So I think, you know, in relationship to our endorsed candidate for State House, Tammy Carpenter, um, you know, she has suffered attacks from the establishment.
00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:31.440
Um, one of the incumbent Democratic State House members, uh, Lisa Reynolds, uh, who represents one of the wealthier parts of town in southwest Portland, um, she penned a letter to the editor, op-ed, um, you know, attacking Tammy and endorsing her opponent, right?
00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:33.359
The sort of incumbent favorite.
00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:35.200
Uh, and it was interesting.
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:49.039
It is rare uh in sort of genteel Democratic Party politics in Oregon for an incumbent to attack a hopeful for an open seat, right?
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:52.240
And so I think that's worth emphasizing, right?
00:17:52.400 --> 00:18:06.720
There is not an interest for the Democratic Party here and for their backers in the corporate world to allow any kind of insurgent, left-wing, principled uh uh socialist in office, right?
00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:10.640
Uh, even in a situation where it's a safe seat, right?
00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:15.200
Right, blue no matter who, right, does not apply sort of classic scenario here.
00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:23.359
Um, and it's also worth, I think, thinking more about why it's so urgent a task for the political establishment here.
00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:34.480
Um, you mentioned, you know, as an educator, the impact of AI, which is of course, you know, required uh uh infrastructure related to these data centers and vice versa.
00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:45.599
Um, I know that uh there is a firm here called Sightline, uh, which makes drone equipment for the Israeli army.
00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:51.359
And they are based here in Portland and they rely on AI for their targeting.
00:18:51.759 --> 00:19:01.200
Um they put a really scary video out on their website um that was a flyover of uh of downtown Portland.
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:05.599
Wow was it like super detailed and you can see people and stuff?
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:16.240
Yeah, I mean it's you know, it's it's hard not to imagine uh a camera of that clarity flying over Gaza, right, during the genocide uh right now.
00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:29.440
And and so I think as much as this fight is about data centers, right, and the impact they have domestically, right, the political economy, of course, knows no borders, right?
00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:35.440
This is an internationalist fight uh against the the impacts of American empire.
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:37.839
Um, and that's happening in Portland, right?
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:43.519
That's not relegated to you know Raytheon Acres in Washington, DC, right?
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:44.720
That's happening here.
00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:47.359
Yeah, no, that's a that's a really great point.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:20:02.880
And of course, um, so much of this has been focused on these bigger, more flashy uh companies like Palantir, owned by Peter Thiel, who is a very like, you know, open, we'll call him a public intellectual to be kind, but a public something, right?
00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.559
Like, and who's been very like in support of Trump and everything.
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:16.319
But there are also all these little firms dotted all over Silicon Valley, reaching up into Portland, reaching up into Seattle, that also are involved in this, right?
00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:25.920
It's a it's a whole like interwoven industry that it's it's it's just kind of it's it can be overwhelming to think about.
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.240
And and this is also, you know, where this debate comes in, right?
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:41.920
What's like what are what is the right tactic when we're talking about things so local, like stopping a data center being built in your, you know, your county or something, right?
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:46.559
Like that, like either doing like a uh a one-year moratorium.
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:50.960
Some places have done one-year moratorium, some places are trying to change the law altogether, right?
00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:53.359
Like um and and ban them.
00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:57.839
Um, but there have been a couple of articles that have come out in Jacobin.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:21.759
Um, one by a woman named Holly Buck, uh, who argues that essentially this is just um going to result in more inequality, offshoring uh these kinds of buildings, or this this kind of like generation of uh power, data, whatever, um, to other places, and therefore not internationalist because you're just, you know, kind of shunting it off elsewhere.
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:29.599
Um, a kind of she she describes it as NIMBYism, but like in this data center kind of way, uh, NIMBYism not in my backyard.
00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:42.240
And then today another article came up that is saying, no, these moratorium is act are actually the start of democratic governance, um, because Buck argues we need to regulate this democratically.
00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:45.119
We're this moratoria is not gonna work.
00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:47.839
He says, no, this is the beginning of the fight, right?
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.000
This is how we we start doing this.
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:57.519
I'm interested when you say the democratic socialist difference, you could be talking about a number of things, but one of them is about mass action, right?
00:21:57.599 --> 00:21:59.519
It's not about localism.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:04.160
In the strict sense, but the local is often where you begin, right?
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:10.720
So you've you you mentioned political education, but I'm kind of wondering like, what's your thought and your political analysis of this?
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:28.079
Um the sort of contradictions inherent here, you know, when we're talking about something like stopping the data center in your community, that's what everyone goes in on, but then they're just going to build it in the community next door, the, you know, the state next door, um, or the country next door, or what have you.
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:33.680
Um, what do you feel is is kind of where you stand or like the purchase you feel that argument has.
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:34.960
Let's talk.
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:36.799
Yeah, what what's your what's your thought?
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:37.839
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:44.240
I mean, I think first it's important to recognize that we have to contend with real contradictions, right?
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:50.880
It's not simply a matter of saying, data center bad, data center out of my community, right?
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:59.680
Uh, because we know that, you know, the politics of capital that that transcends state and it transcends states, as in countries, right?
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:03.519
Um, we live in a transnational uh capital world, right?
00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.640
Even though as humans we only live in one place at a time.
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:08.880
Um, so that that's attention, right?
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:17.759
Um, I think it's worth also being really straightforward and saying that um, you know, this is a uh sort of a pyramid of firms, right?
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:27.440
And in Oregon, the companies that do the actual build-out, right, are often uh union represented construction firms, right?
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:30.400
That um that are being sought out, right?
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:35.519
Obviously, union labor is gonna provide a higher uh quality of labor, right?
00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:40.000
Uh and there's also a value that's you know progressive Portland, right?
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:41.680
That we want union labor.
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:56.960
Um, so I don't think that anyone who's dealing seriously with the contradictions of the data center movement can look anyone in the eye who's a member of a building trades union and say, um, you have an obligation not to work, not to get your bag.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:23:58.960
I mean, that's ridiculous, right?
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:03.599
Um, who who amongst us, right, can can really make that claim.
00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:17.200
I think what's more interesting and useful is to think about what is it about our society and about the political economy here, right, where those are the stable good jobs, right?
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:22.240
For you know, union tradespeople or non-union tradespeople, even.
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:24.640
And, you know, there's a lot of history there.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:32.079
You can go back to the end of the dominant industry in Oregon, which was of course timber, right?
00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:40.559
And the sort of build-out of the public sector after that time created two groups of really good jobs, right?
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:46.240
Direct public sector jobs, and then money that went to public-private partnership, right?
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:50.319
And the blossoming of a sort of domestic union construction industry.
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:53.920
Um, but uh you also have to look around, right?
00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:57.279
You know, roads in terrible condition here, right?
00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:05.039
The the high school I went to in Portland, right, is is decades and decades old, falling apart, ceiling tiles falling off, right?
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:06.480
Asbestos, right?
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:08.160
The water fountains don't work.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:21.759
There is a lot of work to do, but the political economy is saying, let's spend public money in the form of tax breaks in this case, for the benefit of private interest building these data centers.
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:29.599
And let's continue to neglect, right, the the needs that society actually has that would really build out um good jobs.
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:33.039
And I have to say this sort of in conclusion on this point, right?
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:39.759
Um, there there is political consciousness within the building trades unions here, right?
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:41.680
They realize the contradiction.
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:50.079
Um, you know, they're not they're they're gonna give us a hard time when the local electricians union published a warning to their members, you know, careful of DSA.
00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:52.000
They said actually something funny.
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:59.680
They said, we agree with them on a lot of things, which I thought was a wonderful admission to put to have to put in writing, but but they were clear, right?
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:04.400
DSA opposes these data centers, you know, consult with us before you get involved.
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:07.440
And and I get it, that's not offensive to me, right?
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:15.920
Um, but I think it also reflects a fairly narrow vision of the work that needs to be done to benefit society.
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:19.200
And that requires reckoning with the political economy.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:25.680
Yeah, and I think the the sort of blindsidedness I think a lot of people were taken by, right?
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:32.559
It's like the data centers have been, it seems they've just sort of sprung up from nowhere, right?
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:34.240
It's like it's a it's a boom, right?
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:35.920
It's an industry boom.
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:50.000
And the point you just made, which is that we could actually have steady, good paying work that's about protecting the public infrastructure we both already do have, and that could be for the benefit of society.
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:53.839
Some people say these data centers are for the benefit of society.
00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:00.880
They are, you know, um, about potentially making this stuff available to everyone, you know.
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:10.000
Um, I'm I'm maybe being a little bit obviously devil's advocate here, considering what I just said about how I feel about data centers.
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:17.200
But this idea that, like, no, these the these are going to be part of the public infrastructure, right?
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:18.480
That this is inevitable.
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:21.920
This is um uh like any technological boom.
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:27.039
Some people compare it to the internet, but you could even say it's it's like trains or like something else.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:28.640
Yeah.
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:30.960
Well, we know about that too.
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:34.319
Um very controversial uh choice there.
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:44.880
But but nonetheless, like, you know, what would you say to someone who's like, okay, look, like we understand that right now it's terrifying everyone because it seems so sudden, but this is just technological progress.
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:53.359
And this is something that we as socialists need to take advantage of and reclaim or like figure out how we're gonna relate to it, right?
00:27:53.599 --> 00:28:05.039
Relate to it politically, relate to it both morally in the sense of our own, you know, sort of political agency, how we like put that into the world, but also collectively, right?
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:07.920
Like how we wrap ourselves around this.
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:13.119
I've talked to some people who've said, uh, you know, this is the cat's out of the bag.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:15.519
You cannot, you cannot uh, you know, get rid of this.
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:17.599
So we have to, we have to relate to it.
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:26.240
Then those who just say, well, personally boycotting it or or um, you know, preferring not to use it, that's just putting your head in the sand.
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.839
So, you know, you need to get with the program.
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:42.079
And then those who have like more of a nuanced view are like, like I said, you uh we need to be strategic in our relationship with this because it's it's unstoppable.
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:44.480
Um, I'm not gonna say what I really think right now.
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:47.759
I want to know what you think, and then we can we can talk about it.
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:50.079
That's a that's a great, great, good framing.
00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:56.319
So, right, I mean, you know, you can be very upset as I am about what's happening, but it's happening, right?
00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:03.440
And there's some sobriety in just recognizing the sort of march of technological development, right?
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:05.359
But why is that happening?
00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:09.440
Um, I think that's really where we have to locate some of the conversation, right?
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:16.240
I think again, you you referenced sort of the historical development of technology under capitalism, right?
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:21.519
The impetus for technological development often has to do with labor saving, right?
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:28.000
Reducing the cost of labor, which is capital's largest expense for generating profit.
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:42.640
Uh, and you know, I think whether you're talking about AI's use in education, right, which is not just about sort of labor saving on an FTE basis, but also about privatization of public education, right?
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:46.160
The ultimate labor savings for the capitalist class, right?
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:47.759
Not having to fund public ed.
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.200
Also really big in healthcare, right?
00:29:51.519 --> 00:30:00.880
Where AI is sort of furthering and speeding the alienation that patients experience with the people who take care of them, right?
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:05.920
You have the the remote nurse, the the sort of AI provider, right?
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:09.519
Um those things are happening, they're not prospective, right?
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:19.200
And so if that is a world that is not uh suitable, right, for human flourishing, the question is what do we do?
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:26.319
And I think the word moratoria, right, for these these moratoriums is is useful, right?
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:31.119
Um well here's the thing, right?
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:41.119
Whatever you want, I think there has to be recognition that for the for the working class, the people that are impacted disproportionately by AI and data centers, right?
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:42.240
We have to have power.
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:44.000
We have to have leverage.
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:49.119
This is not a question of developing the perfect policy perspective, right?
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:55.359
Um, this is a question of who gets to decide, right, how to split up the resources.
00:30:55.519 --> 00:31:00.640
And that's to build data centers, that's the resources that data centers produce, right?
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:09.119
Um, you know, I think what we're seeing is that data centers are concentrating capital significantly, right?
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:20.960
Um, I know in the in the the the article you referenced from Jacobin by Holly Buck, um there was some pitch about how no, no, data centers will allow us to to decarbonize, right?
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:31.680
The implication being that we can um convert fossil fuel uh energy infrastructure to uh non-carbon forms of energy production, right?
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:36.000
Um that's not what we're seeing, first of all.
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:38.960
Also, why do you need data centers to do that?
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:41.839
Well, you know, you know, it's like there's many choices.
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:49.920
Anyway, sorry to interrupt, but no, no, I mean I mean it it has to be it has to be confronted on its face and also by you know its implication, right?
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:55.839
Um data centers uh will increase significantly the demand for energy.
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:56.319
Yep.
00:31:56.480 --> 00:31:59.839
Energy that is not being produced right now, right?
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:12.640
And it is ludicrous uh to contend that building more data centers will provide some impetus or capital to fund uh non-carbon power generation.
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:23.119
You know, I I live in Oregon, we're taking down dams because of their devastating impact to ecology and the rights of indigenous people, right?
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:35.039
Uh, and there is simply not any source of energy production here that will uh feed the beast of data center development besides gas, right?
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:36.720
And that's not my contention.
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:41.599
Ask the investor-owned gas utility in Oregon, Northwest Natural.
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:53.680
They put out a report last year that makes it very clear, and they are salivating, donating to establish democratic candidates and incumbents because they're here to capitalize.
00:32:53.839 --> 00:33:01.359
So, again, capital concentration from the data centers undermines the political power of the working class.
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:02.880
It's not an opportunity.
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:20.720
Yeah, I'm from Alaska and the um ping pong administrative kind of ball that they play with the um Anwar, the um Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, um, Mary Peltola, who was the one-term actually pretty good on labor, to be honest.
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:23.039
Like she didn't break the railway strike.
00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:25.359
You know, she was one of eight uh Congresspeople.
00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:37.680
She eagerly sided with the Trump administration or the Biden administration to open up Anwar and to um have that be, you know, kind of like open season.
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:44.559
Partly, you know, she explained why she's like, you know, good jobs, you know, benefit, you know, economic benefits, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:33:45.039 --> 00:34:01.359
But it was like there is this sense of um the idea that this is all zero sum or that there's some kind of like, oh, well, data centers are somehow the only answer to um, you know, generating clean energy.
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:09.039
It's like, like you said, it's it's a wild thing to say, precisely because it's like, but we aren't using that energy.
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:10.960
We don't need to use that energy.
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:23.360
And this isn't even a degrowth kind of thing where you're saying we need to reduce the amount of energy we need, and which is a whole other debate, of course, regarding like what we can actually do, what will actually sustain life, all of those things.
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:31.760
It's more like, and I really like the way you put it, you know, um, what is human, you know, like where does human flourishing fit in here?
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:37.840
You know, what do we actually not just need to live, but need to be human and flourish?
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:41.360
And I would have to say, now you're gonna find out what I really think.
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:44.559
This, none of this, none of this is doing that, right?
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:45.760
It's not doing it now.
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:51.440
And it's and and there's been few arguments that I've found persuasive that it will do it in the future.
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:57.840
Not only right now, AI is being used to kind of generate some of the nastiest stuff you've ever seen.
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:04.800
And also, like I mentioned, it is not uh prompting um a lot of creative thought among, you know, amongst people.
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:11.760
It's not, it's not providing time saving for anyone except for capital, right?
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:27.039
Um and uh, you know, don't want to like completely derail our conversation to talk about all of our irritations with with all the various ways that we have to, you know, have our lives interrupted and like kind of deal with this AI thing.
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:41.360
But I I do think that socialists do have an analysis that does marry the political economy of this with a broader conception of what it means to actually flourish socially and individually as people.
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:47.440
Um, and you kind of talked about, you know, your irritation with the with the article.
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:53.599
My own sense is that this person is kind of, yeah, like kind of saying, like, this is inevitable.
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:58.079
And so therefore, we only have one choice, and it's not to stop anything.
00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:06.639
But I mean, that is to me, why would you tell people don't get in the way of this, don't get in the way of development?
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:16.320
Because historically, collective action has stopped communities from being destroyed when people are actually able to get in um early enough.
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:23.039
And in your view, do you think that it is early enough, at least in in your sort of assessment of the campaign?
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:35.280
Um, or do you feel that it's um similar to what uh Aaron Rigenberg, uh, who also wrote for Jacobin, is kind of saying this is actually just a way for people to kind of begin the democratic process here.
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:39.440
Um, that's not all he says, but I just trying to kind of give the landscape.
00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:44.320
But basically, my question to you is um, how do you feel about this?
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:58.800
Uh, like the the prospect of success, uh, both for Tammy, of course, you know, good luck, Tammy, but um also just to actually really stop this and to chase them away or or or get them to whatever, disappear.
00:36:59.119 --> 00:36:59.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:00.159
Bye-bye.
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:01.360
So I think it's both.
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:02.639
I think it's it's both, right?
00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:05.039
And and cause for optimism on both fronts.
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:09.280
So I think first, um, you know, we're not, it's not too late, right?
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:16.400
Uh, mostly because we're on this, you know, uh marble hurtling through the galaxy, slowly burning up, right?
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:26.480
So the the urgency is there, and uh, you know, I think you can orient to that sort of fatalistically, um, either on the data center front or broadly.
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:28.480
I I I think it's about inspiration.
00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:45.280
You know, here in Portland, uh in uh, you know, in the 70s, there was a grassroots revolt against uh a massive plan to build freeways, excuse me, build freeways uh throughout the metro area and here in Portland, right?
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:51.199
And uh there were parts of that resistance that were articulating it in ecological perspectives, right?
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:54.800
This is a build-out for the fossil fuel industry, right, etc.
00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:59.840
Um, but that grassroots movement was successful, right?
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:12.079
And whenever I drive over the Markham Bridge, which crosses the Willamette River into downtown Portland, you drive by the spur that they built for the Mount Hood Freeway.
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:14.639
And the Mount Hood Freeway was never constructed, right?
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:16.880
Those revolts were successful.
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:22.800
So um, in as much as I think we have an opportunity to have some inspiration from the past, right?
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:28.239
Um, we also have a present context that I think is also a cause for optimism.
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:41.679
I think this idea that this is an opportunity for the working class to build political power and political muscle that might even be expended beyond the data center issue, I think is also really exciting.
00:38:41.920 --> 00:39:00.880
There's, you know, a sort of, there's there's Tammy as a DSA leader, right, in on the West Side, but there's sort of a constellation of progressives that she's endorsed that are also united on this issue and have in common a left-wing sort of universal uh uh program, right?
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:03.840
That um I think is exciting, right?
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:11.280
You know, we have a ballot measure for uh universal health plan um likely next year.
00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:20.719
The same political incumbents that are for data centers are queasy or are in opposition to universal health plan.
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:22.800
And the remedy is the same, right?
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:32.960
An electoral program that is backed by mass action and large sections of the working class that are committed to that sort of socialist agenda.
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:40.400
Yeah, it's it's always, I mean, I'm really glad we're talking about this now, too, because I would like to continue the conversation with others.
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:51.199
Like hopefully we'll be able to talk to more people from other chapters who are working on this to talk specifically about what they've seen in their communities, um, the the kinds of maybe changes.
00:39:51.440 --> 00:40:08.239
You mentioned the um sort of uh the blessed, I won't say unholy, the blessed alliance of, you know, the sort of libertarian or like the don't tread on me right or the right leaning with uh kind of more radical, um, you know, socialist uh agenda.
00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:18.159
How have you seen uh changes happening like within the sort of um coalition that you've formed um amongst either individuals or like other groups?
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:20.719
Like have you seen people kind of leaning more towards DSA?
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:24.639
Have you seen people kind of start thinking about these things more holistically?
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:27.039
Maybe you could just share if you have any.
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:33.840
Yeah, so um, you know, as a as a chapter here in Portland, we have several of the suburban branches.
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:43.760
And and one of the main sites of struggle against the data centers is of course out in Washington County on the west side, um, where our Washington County branch is located.
00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:55.039
Uh, and there has been a real public profile of uh of a gentleman named Jacob Roloff, who is on a reality show that's that was uh sort of nationally famous.
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:58.239
Um and he, you know, is uh reality show, sorry.
00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:00.159
Uh no, I I I wish I knew.
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:05.199
It's about it's about a family of of little people that that live on a farm in Kinsborough.
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:13.039
Uh and I don't know the name, but um, but uh but at any rate, and and he's you know, he's leading this fight.
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:25.599
He just joined DSA, cut a great video about why he joined DSA as the site of struggle, not just against data centers, but for a broader progressive and socialist agenda.
00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:40.079
Um, so yeah, I think I think whether you're, you know, the the sort of Democratic Party, right, upset that DSA is taking this position of leadership, or you're just right, a normal person that is impacted and afflicted by these data centers.
00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:46.559
Um, there is absolutely, I think, uh new juice uh for our DSA project, which is super exciting.
00:41:46.880 --> 00:42:08.320
Yeah, and I I really do think, I mean, I've been thinking about this a lot, not just because of my own vocation, but also in relation to political education and like kind of what the socialist role is in political education at a time when actual education is being threatened by capital in such a direct way, you know.
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:20.719
It used to be kind of um gauche to actually come right out and say, yes, we think that AI should replace people and they, you know, kids shouldn't even read anymore, you know, or whatever.
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:23.760
You you wouldn't you wouldn't actually say those kinds of things.
00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:32.480
But but basically you hear people saying that kind of thing now, you know, like that um, you know, soon books will, you know, go away or or what have you.
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:57.519
Um, again, a little bit off the topic of this actual, you know, very rich discussion, but I do think that our role as political educators is also to help people um kind of talk to each other, figure out what it is they really think, figure out what kinds of questions to ask and say, you know, I'm not just annoyed that these people are building this ugly building near my house.
00:42:57.679 --> 00:43:06.239
This actually has to do with like a bigger mission of humanity, you know, like that that we call socialism, right?
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:12.559
And socialism is the project of transforming society, getting rid of capitalism, right?
00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:24.239
Not just creating pockets of tall like tolerance or creating pockets of kind of like um, you know, oh, this is a nice neighborhood or what have you, but we really we have a big project.
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:32.719
And have you found that people are thinking about that kind of thing when they're doing that local work and and they're maybe surprising themselves with the kinds of things they think now?
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:34.559
Yeah, absolutely.
00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:41.360
You know, we have an existing campaign within Portland DSA that is uh a fight for public power, right?
00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:54.159
I mentioned these investor owned utilities that provide uh gas and electricity in the case of Portland General Electric to uh most of the people that that live here.
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:57.679
Um Pacific Power is the other, the other bad guy in that trio.
00:43:58.079 --> 00:43:59.599
Um and so the public power.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:04.079
Campaign, right, which sort of predates our entry into the data center fight.
00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:06.960
Uh, the the dovetail is really clear, right?
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:11.599
The the political power we have to build to win public power, right?
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:15.280
To to sort of break the backs of these investor owned utilities.
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:18.239
Um, that that is to be built, right?
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:27.679
And the data center fight, I think, has been great opportunity to expose masses of people who may not have consciousness yet about public power, right?
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:31.760
Or they think public power is a small town thing in Oregon, right?
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:35.599
We have our, you know, people's districts, right, in in small parts of Oregon.
00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:36.719
Could you explain what that is?
00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:37.039
Sorry.
00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:38.000
Yeah, absolutely.
00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:42.639
So it's just a municipal, um, basically cooperative, right?
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:49.360
So if you're in a small town in Oregon, right, you can't afford to build uh energy infrastructure.
00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:56.239
Um uh and of course, if individuals were trying to purchase that on the open market from an investor and utility, right?
00:44:56.320 --> 00:44:58.000
It'd be prohibitively expensive, right?
00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:00.639
So it's a cooperative, a purchasing cooperative, right?
00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:03.599
Um but but that's not the case in Portland, right?
00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:05.599
We have all investor owned power here.
00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:20.079
And so um I think you know, our eco-socialist working group being able to meet people where they are on the data center issue and say, yeah, wouldn't it be great if Northwest Natural Gas, if PGE didn't even exist, right?
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:27.440
What a blow that would be to uh uh their support for data centers and to the data center project.
00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:30.639
So I think the connections are being made, which is very exciting.
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:31.840
That is so cool.
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:37.440
I mean, I I really do think that, and you know, debates will happen.
00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:49.840
This is unfolding very quickly, but I do think that the example of the Portland campaign and the way that your your chapter has also historically been able to kind of help people weave these things together and bring people in that way.
00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:53.679
It is it's kind of a natural in a lot of ways.
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:57.280
People are so upset that this stuff's being shoved down their throats, right?
00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:03.679
It feels undemocratic on its face, regardless of the fact that it's happening through these elected officials.
00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:09.199
So the contradictions that are really important here are the ones about we elected you to protect us.
00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:12.880
We elected you to you know to fight for us.
00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:18.719
And all you're doing is um turning our communities over to these developers and investors, right?
00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:22.880
Um, I think for a lot of people, it's very clear that this is wrong.
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:33.360
And then the socialist's mission is to try to help people um keep going, really, you know, like to keep on seeing these things in a non-conspiratorial kind of way, right?
00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:42.239
And to like, you know, sort of join with others in order to kind of make, yeah, to make public power happen in all in all aspects.
00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:42.880
Yeah.
00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:52.559
I mean, you you mentioned, if I can just jump in for a second, you you mentioned a couple of times quite accurately, right, the sort of threat of libertarian tradition, right, in Oregon.
00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:54.159
And it's real libertarianism.
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:55.280
It's not, you know, libertarianism.
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:56.239
Oh, I'm very aware.
00:46:56.800 --> 00:46:59.119
Except on election day when they're Republicans.
00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:02.960
Like these are often, you know, there's an absentiist tradition, et cetera, right?
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:03.760
As you know.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:14.159
Um, there is, I think, an interesting situation here developing where uh like so many people, libertarian or not, right?
00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:18.480
There is a lot of alienation from electoral politics, right?
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:22.880
Uh, and that gets often expressed in idiosyncratic ways, right?
00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:27.119
That's where you get some of the, as you mentioned, the conspiratorial thinking, right?
00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:32.400
You know, the sort of elite this and elite that, and it's like which big this, big that.
00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:35.519
Yeah, elite, what uh what elite are you talking about?
00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:42.000
Uh, but uh, but I think for DSA to be able to say, yes, this is the elite, right?
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:46.800
And it's not conspiratorial, it's analytical, it's a material analysis.
00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:51.840
It is showing what people are seeing with their own eyes, I think is so compelling.
00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:58.079
Um, I spoke to one of our uh electoral working group leaders who've done an incredible job, right?
00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:00.639
Knocking doors for Tammy and other candidates.
00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:05.199
And, you know, he told me that he's just been floored at the doors.
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:07.360
People want to talk about the data centers.
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:13.280
And he said it's such a rich jumping-off point to talk about the broader political economy, right?
00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:18.239
And and empowerment, like voting for this person, volunteering for this person, right?
00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:22.320
It's not just about like, you know, fighting Trump and the Democratic Party.
00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:24.639
It's like those, you know, fighting Trump's good, right?
00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:31.440
But um, but that's not uh, I think a relevant political project, right?
00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:35.119
That's a that's like a broad political sort of idea.
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:38.159
So that distinction I think is really meaningful to folks.
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:39.199
Thanks.
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:42.320
Thank you so much, Gabe, for for coming and talking to us.
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:44.239
I think that's a good place to leave off.
00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:50.800
And I'm really excited uh to find out what happens with the election and everything.
00:48:50.960 --> 00:49:14.000
I mean, it's as as terrifying as it can be sometimes to kind of like face down these relentless just evils, you know, like you know, just it can also just be so great to talk to folks to find out like really like what we're really doing, you know, like it's not just like turning up at city council or or what have you.
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:16.719
It's uh it is, like you said, a political project.
00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:18.800
And uh I'm really proud of it.
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:28.159
I'm really proud to be in DSA at times like this when we are not just meeting people where they're at, but also um helping people find their political agency.
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:36.400
I think that's one of the biggest uh things that we can do right now at a time when it does feel sometimes like this is so relentless, you know?
00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:38.159
Overwhelming, 100%.
00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:38.960
Yeah.
00:49:39.199 --> 00:49:41.360
Um, thank you so much, Gabe, again.
00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:45.119
And thanks to our production crew, Emma, Michael, and Tim, who put all this together.
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:56.800
Class is a podcast of DSA's National Political Education Committee, or NPEC, which works to expand the knowledge of DSA members and non-members in the service of winning the struggle for socialism and democracy.
00:49:57.039 --> 00:50:07.599
You can find out more about NPEC by searching for us online or following us on social media, but the best way to find out what our committee's up to is by signing up for Red Letter, NPEC's monthly newsletter.
00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:12.800
And if you aren't already, you can become a DSA member by following the link in the podcast description.
00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:15.519
Okay, until next time, solidarity.
