Interview Like a Pro: The 5 Core Stories Framework

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Is there a common mistake you see people making?
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Or is it often a series of things that you see?
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It's a series of things, but there's one that stands out to me the most.
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Jonathan, you talk about your five core stories.
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Can you tell us more about that?
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The five core stories came from actually a huge mistake that I made.
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I was preparing for an interview with Amazon a couple of years ago.
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Welcome back to another episode of the Career Starter Podcast.
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My name is Ashley Misquita and I'm your host.
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If you already subscribed to the show, thank you very much, but if you're new, please go ahead and subscribe.
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Because today, like every day, I'm going to be bringing you amazing guests, and we're going to uncover the tips and strategies that will help you get your dream job.
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And once you're in that job, help you launch your career and accelerate it like a rocket ship.
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All righty.
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Let's kick things off here.
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Jonathan Corrales, great to have you here.
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Thank you so much for doing this.
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I've been following your stuff on LinkedIn for some time now.
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So many great insights, and I'm very excited to have you on the pod.
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Yeah. Thank you very much.
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Happy to be here. Excellent.
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So, Jonathan, why don't we kick things off with, just some background on you?
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Tell us about yourself.
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Tell us what you do and how you help people.
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Yeah. So I've.
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I've been in software industry for over 20 years.
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15 of those years, I was a hiring manager.
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I've been an engineer. Program manager.
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Any role that you can think of in software, I've played.
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And in 2023, I was laid off twice.
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Once at the beginning of the year and once at the end of the year between layoffs.
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I had a very short contract, with a company and dealt with one of the worst micro managers that I've ever had.
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So at the end of the year, I thought, I'm done doing the corporate thing, I'd love to do something for myself.
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And a lot of my friends were getting laid off from different companies, and I decided to do something about it.
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And so I became, an interview coach. Interesting.
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That was sounds like a rough 2023 man.
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Yeah, tell me about it.
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Jeez.
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Interesting.
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So then let's talk about what you do.
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So you're an interview coach.
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Does this stuff apply specifically to people, mid-career people who've lost their job?
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I know you mentioned you had some friends who lost their job.
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How do you think about this in the context of, like, the whole spectrum from when I'm in university looking for a job all the way through to mid mid-career?
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Just apply there as well. Yeah, absolutely.
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I started off with with folks that are in the industry at the moment because my friends have been most of my friends have been in the industry now for at least ten years. If not longer.
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And so I started there.
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But along the way, I've actually helped quite a bit of of students that are currently in university.
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They're either looking for internships or they're looking for their first jobs.
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And they come to me with a lot of the same questions that people who are on the market or have been in the industry for a long time have as well.
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So the advice is, is generally applicable to everyone.
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I mean, the most important thing is to prepare for your interview ahead of time, do your homework on your company, on the role that you know just come in prepared and don't tell them that you're passionate, but show them that you're passionate about what it is that you're doing.
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I mean, I followed your stuff for a while now.
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I've been reading your your work for some time.
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You certainly have credibility in my eyes.
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But maybe if you can talk a little bit about how you frame your success rate when you're helping people.
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So our audience, you know, really appreciates that this is someone they ought to be paying close attention to.
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Is it like the percent of clients who get jobs or the speed or something like that?
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Maybe if you have any thoughts around that? Yeah, sure.
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So one thing I'm not very good about is tracking the percentage.
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I actually need to do a better job of that.
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But for the most part, I help people get jobs within 5 to 9 weeks.
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That's the time frame.
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And in this job market, that's a stellar result.
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Most people are on the market for six months on average.
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The median is about five months.
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I don't want them to say that it's it's easy, but it is possible to still get a job in under three months.
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So that's that's how I'm measuring my success.
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You know, my goal is to try to get somebody a job within ten weeks.
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Yeah. That's amazing.
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I mean, that's a relatively short period of time, especially in the, you know, in the job market we're in if it was 2021, it'll be a different story.
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But, in this job market it's quite a bit tougher.
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And there's, there's, you know, hiring freezes and people being let go.
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So that's, that's pretty remarkable.
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What's preventing them from getting the job when they, when you first crossed paths with them typically.
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Yeah. So they have a couple problems that they're facing.
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The first one is getting the interview.
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That's like the first hurdle that obviously everyone has to jump through.
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The second one is getting past the phone screen.
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And then if they're getting to the final interview, the last challenge is how do you convince the person that you're speaking to that you're going to be a good asset to that, company?
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So typically it's somewhere in, you know, one of those three stages that that folks come to me.
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And what.
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But at that point, what they're dealing with is, as a confidence issue.
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They've been rejected, they've been ghosted, and they don't know how to how to sort of dust off and keep going.
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That can be very demotivating, very frustrating.
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And so, that's when they usually come to me and they start off by asking questions about the resume.
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They think it's the resume is the real problem.
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But then we uncover all sorts of other issues, like it's not just a resume, it's is is a job description.
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Like, is it a good fit for them?
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Is it the kind of company they want to work at?
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You know, and if it's not those things then it comes out in their interview.
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It comes out in like the things that they're saying.
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So that's one of the first things that we tackle.
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So I hope that kind of answers your question.
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Sort of like in that first, you know, it's that first kind of struggle that they encounter and they and they're, they're willing to deal with it for a couple of months.
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And so for the most part, people come to me when they've been, they've been looking for a job between 4 to 6 months.
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So, yeah. There. That makes sense. Yeah.
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certainly resonates.
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I was chatting with someone yesterday, a student who was making the comment just how demotivating and how frustrating it can be when you're, when you're applying, applying, applying and, not making any headway.
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And it's like they're trying to figure out what's going wrong.
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Okay, so let's get into the meat of how you do things and what you do.
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Is there a common mistake that you see?
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I think you touched on this a little earlier.
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Maybe I'll give you a chance to expand on a little bit.
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Is there a common mistake you see people making?
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Or is it often a series of things that you see?
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It's a series of things, but there's one that stands out to me the most.
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I would say your your resume, your cover letter.
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Like not tailoring those things for an application.
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What most people are doing now is what what we're all sort of calling the spray and pray method.
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So they're just applying to absolutely anything and everything that comes up.
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And there's even a service that you can pay like $100 a week, I'm sorry, a month.
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And they will apply to 100 positions a week for you.
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And I won't mention the name of the service, but I met someone who was doing that, and he would get phone calls from random companies and they'd say, oh, you applied to our company.
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And he's like, I did.
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And then he forgot that he had his he was paying for the service.
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So, you know, he wouldn't do well on the phone screen because he wasn't prepared he didn’t do any homework, you know, things like that.
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So, so that's the the main mistake that people are making right now.
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I know everyone thinks it's a numbers game and to some extent it is.
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Obviously you don't want to just apply to one job and wait for that one job, but I don't think that you need to apply to 100 jobs a day.
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And some students that I've spoken to, like focusing on student specifically, are doing just that.
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They'll apply to 100 jobs a day.
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They're racking up like thousands of applications overall.
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And then they have a really bad response rate.
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They have less than 1% response rate.
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If they get a response, most of the time it's to get nothing.
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And, and they're incredibly disappointed in the job market.
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But, you know, if you're just applying with one resume to everything, you're not going to make any progress.
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So that's the thing that stands out to me the most.
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And there are other problems too.
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But that's the first one that, that we really should, should address.
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Yeah, I heard someone make the point that because the bar is so low to apply, it's so easy to apply and you feel like you kind of feels like you're doing something.
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It feels like, well, I applied 100 jobs today. I'm moving the ball forward.
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You know, it's a numbers game, but in reality, if it's that easy for you, it's that easy for everybody else.
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And so everyone else is applying to 100 jobs a day.
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And these companies who are getting these resumes and applications are just getting utterly spammed and overwhelmed by them and, you know, by people who are randomly putting in applications.
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And so, yeah, no, I think that's absolutely there's there's a quote that I remember that, that I know, but I can't remember who said it.
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And, the quote is the person who invented the ship also invented the ship wreck.
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Right.
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So like Easy Apply is a phenomenal tool.
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Like, you know, I remember when, when I had to apply to jobs and I had to physically fill out like a piece of paper and hand it in and, you know, things like that.
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This was like a late 90s, early 2000, especially for retail jobs.
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And now you can just click a button and you've applied within a couple of seconds.
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So to your point, you know, like in user in, in UX and user experience, what we call that like friction, right.
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Like it's frictionless.
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It's so easy to apply to a job that anyone can do it.
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And there's no filter on the application side that says this person is qualified or anything like that.
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So yeah, recruiters are getting applications to jobs that are posted in the hundreds.
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I was speaking to one recruiter and he said he posted a position and he got 600 applications within two hours.
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How how can anyone go through 600 applications even if they spent 6 or 7 seconds on everyone?
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Just do the math.
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That's hours and hours and hours of going through applications.
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So how could somebody that's qualified stand out amongst that?
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You know, the sea of applications?
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It's absolutely.
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So you have to do something different.
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So someone comes to you Jonathan, and you know, you guys decide to work together.
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Why don't you tell us if you wouldn't mind.
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Like what are the next steps?
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How does that look? Talk us through how you help.
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Yeah.
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So the first thing I do is I talk to them about their goals, their values.
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Those are sort of things that people kind of ignore.
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They're like, well, I just need a job.
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Yeah, you need a job, but you want to have a job that you enjoy.
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You don't want to work on.
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You know, for 40 hours at a place that you hate.
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So first I start with their goals and their values.
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I call it the North Star.
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So we define that and that not only helps us understand the kinds of, of jobs that they're interested in, but also the kinds of companies that they want to work at.
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So we can make a short list and say, okay, these are the companies that we're going to target.
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Then I look at their resumes, their LinkedIn profile resumes, if they have more than one, because some people are applying to multiple positions or resume, if they only apply to one position on their resume, their LinkedIn profile, and I do something that's old school, I know it's not popular, but I also help them write cover letters because, you know, cover letters are storytelling devices, especially if you're a career changer or you're just getting into a field, like a junior or person who just graduated college, you want to be able to tell your story.
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It's kind of like writing your essay to get into university.
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That makes it interesting.
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It makes it makes you memorable.
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Our brains are wired for story.
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And people think that the resume is a storytelling device.
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It's not. It's a highlight reel.
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It's like these are all of the things that the that are important to people, but when they're trying to think about, like, how do I how do I stand out?
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How do I become memorable?
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So I call that the rebrand.
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Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean.
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So the thing about cover letters is if someone barely has time to read one of 600 resumes, they don't have time to read a cover letter.
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How do you help people get that read?
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How do you help people get that noticed?
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Yeah, so I have to reframe it so it's no longer a cover letter is now an icebreaker.
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Right.
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So if you send somebody a DM in on LinkedIn, if you send someone an email, there's a message that's attached to that, right?
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Your resume is attached to that message.
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That's all the cover letter is 12 sentences.
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This is why I'm qualified for the position.
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This is why I'm interested in your company.
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And then a call to action. That's it.
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So we're not talking about like an old school cover letter.
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That's like a big full page of text.
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No, not at all.
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Half a page or under a small icebreaker just to kind of like I've spoken to many recruiters on LinkedIn and they'll say, well, the problem with most of these, like DMs that they get is I'm just as, hey, I'm interested in your position.
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I submitted an application so the recruiter is like, all right, cool.
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What? So what? Like, why are you telling me? Right.
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But if you tell them, well, I'm qualified for this position.
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I've been doing these kinds of projects for three years or ten years or whatever the case may be.
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Now they're like, okay, now I do see why you might be qualified for the position.
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So then they'll go into the queue and they might look at your application.
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And to your point from earlier, these recruiters are bombarded with all of these applications, but they're also bombarded with DMs.
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If everyone's following that advice of like reach out to the hiring manager, reach out to the recruiter before or after or during the application.
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They've got inboxes that are flooded with DMs and, you know, so so let's start there.
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Like, let's show people why you're qualified for the position.
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That's your icebreaker or your cover letter, which I know is a dirty word.
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And then and then attach to your resume.
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And that should help you stand out in that initial phase.
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It's so interesting you say that, I was at a, I was speaking at a, an event recently, and the topic of reaching out came up.
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You know, I get a lot of inbound as kind of people are starting to get to know that I help students and that kind of thing.
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And they kind of break down into three categories.
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Category one is, people who just connect, which is fine.
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And maybe they're like, I don't know about this guy.
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Let me read his stuff and see if he's got anything interesting to say?
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Fair enough.
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There's a category that say, I'd really appreciate the opportunity to have a quick 15-20 minute chat with you. Get your advice.
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Fair enough. And I’ll typically say yes.
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And so I try and block off a little time in the late afternoon, early evening on on Friday to do that.
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But there's this middle category that say, I'd like to stay in touch, and I don't know what to do with that.
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Like, that would be nice.
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Well, it doesn't give me something to respond back to.
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And I wonder if it's people trying not to be too pushy or.
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But if you don't get it.
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I mean, I think part of it too is like us all being humans.
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We don't want to.
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Many people don't psychologically want to run the risk of someone saying, no, I don't want to talk to you or no, I don't have time.
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So by not asking for something, it doesn't.
00:13:43.832 --> 00:13:49.041
You don't have that potential friction point of someone saying, no, I can't do it, but it doesn't move the ball forward for you at all.
00:13:49.041 --> 00:13:51.457
And so it's it sounds a little bit like what you're describing.
00:13:51.457 --> 00:13:52.375
Yeah, absolutely.
00:13:52.375 --> 00:14:04.707
I want to give you a little tip that I learned from Austin Belcak to overcome that challenge, what you can do is instead of saying, let's keep in touch or let's just have a coffee chat, like ask the person that you want to talk to for some advice.
00:14:04.750 --> 00:14:07.707
Say, hey, you know, I'm thinking about applying to this job.
00:14:07.707 --> 00:14:10.541
I'm not sure if I should, and then give them two options.
00:14:10.541 --> 00:14:13.707
I'm thinking of doing A or I'm thinking of doing B, what do you think?
00:14:13.832 --> 00:14:16.332
And have the other person give you their opinion.
00:14:16.332 --> 00:14:18.666
So let's say they say all right pick option okay cool.
00:14:18.666 --> 00:14:24.250
So now what you're going to do is you're gonna follow up with them and say, hey, I've tried A and here's how it's going so far.
00:14:24.875 --> 00:14:31.625
Right. So you're following up with them. Nobody wants to give advice and then have that advice ignored.
00:14:31.666 --> 00:14:39.332
But if you tell that person that you're following their advice, they're most likely going to give you more advice because, hey, now you're listening to me.
00:14:39.332 --> 00:14:41.082
I have an audience now, right?
00:14:41.082 --> 00:14:43.541
So I'll give you more advice.
00:14:41.082 --> 00:14:43.541
Well, now we're in touch.
00:14:43.541 --> 00:14:51.582
So if I were to ask you for more advice later and these are like small asks, like, hey, just, you know, choose A or B, like it's I'm not asking you to give me a referral.
00:14:51.582 --> 00:14:54.125
I'm not asking you to put me in contact with anybody.
00:14:54.125 --> 00:14:56.875
Now we have a conversation.
00:14:54.125 --> 00:14:56.875
We're building trust and rapport.
00:14:56.875 --> 00:15:06.916
So if I did that a couple times and I asked you, hey, would you be willing to do a coffee chat with me or a tea chat, you know, for 15 minutes you're going to be more more inclined to do it.
00:15:07.166 --> 00:15:12.707
So now when you're on the call, I can ask you for for other insights like, hey, I noticed that you're working at this company.
00:15:12.707 --> 00:15:13.791
How did you get in?
00:15:13.791 --> 00:15:16.082
Like, what were the steps that you took to get in?
00:15:16.082 --> 00:15:18.041
You know, people love telling their story.
00:15:18.041 --> 00:15:20.500
That's just who we are. Like, we love telling our story.
00:15:20.500 --> 00:15:25.000
We love when someone asks us questions and they listen like it's very comforting.
00:15:25.832 --> 00:15:34.457
So there's also this thing that comes from positive psychology where like, if you want to build trust, you have to treat the other person like you trust them. It's counterintuitive.
00:15:34.457 --> 00:15:40.916
Like for example, one of the easiest ways you can you can build trust is to ask someone for a favor like, hey, can you do me a favor and do X?
00:15:41.832 --> 00:15:45.750
It's like, oh, you're trusting me enough to do that favor for you and not mess it up right?
00:15:46.707 --> 00:15:53.250
It is completely insane that that so I so I heard a story about that and I think, oh, I hope I don't get this wrong.
00:15:53.250 --> 00:16:04.332
I think it goes back to Ben Franklin, who was he had a politician who was not a fan of his, was not supportive of him, and he had to try and figure out how to bring this guy on board.
00:16:04.332 --> 00:16:08.291
And he found out that this guy had this incredibly rare and valuable book.
00:16:08.457 --> 00:16:11.457
And he went to the guy and said, I understand that you have this book.
00:16:11.457 --> 00:16:13.625
It's something I've wanted to read forever.
00:16:13.625 --> 00:16:15.791
Would you be willing to I'll take great care of it.
00:16:15.791 --> 00:16:18.582
Would you be willing to lend it to me?
00:16:15.791 --> 00:16:18.582
And the guy lent it to him.
00:16:18.582 --> 00:16:22.457
And that small act suddenly built this trust the guy.
00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:26.291
The guy thought, well, he must he he respects me and he likes this.
00:16:26.500 --> 00:16:28.207
He asked me if I can help him.
00:16:28.207 --> 00:16:29.832
It's remarkable how this works.
00:16:29.832 --> 00:16:31.416
That's right, that's right. Yeah.
00:16:31.416 --> 00:16:38.916
When people talk about networking on on LinkedIn, the common interpretation or misinterpretation is sending a DM and asking for a favor.
00:16:39.125 --> 00:16:39.500
Right.
00:16:39.500 --> 00:16:44.957
And there's a great analogy about how that's really like, like having a bank account.
00:16:44.957 --> 00:16:47.957
It's like going to the bank and withdrawing before you put any money in.
00:16:47.957 --> 00:16:49.916
You're going to be at negative right?
00:16:49.916 --> 00:16:51.916
So make a couple deposits first.
00:16:51.916 --> 00:16:55.082
So give some value, recommend a book, share some articles.
00:16:55.082 --> 00:16:56.375
Do a podcast together.
00:16:56.375 --> 00:17:03.291
Like all of that sort of stuff will give value to the other person so that at some point, if you ever need to make an asking, you don't have to.
00:17:03.582 --> 00:17:07.000
But if you ever need to make a request, ask for a favor or something.
00:17:07.208 --> 00:17:14.040
That person will be more inclined because they'll feel like you've given them so much value that yeah, it makes sense to give you a little bit of value back.
00:17:14.040 --> 00:17:20.208
Yeah, Adam Grant talks about the story and I'm trying to remember who the actual who did the actual experiment.
00:17:20.208 --> 00:17:29.250
It was related to, the mindset of being paid for your work, or was it doing something out of goodness of your heart?
00:17:29.500 --> 00:17:36.333
So the experiment was, someone was on the on the ground floor with a couch outside their building, and they needed to get the couch upstairs.
00:17:36.665 --> 00:17:38.083
And there were three groups of people.
00:17:38.083 --> 00:17:40.458
Group one, they offered to pay the going rate.
00:17:40.458 --> 00:17:45.500
The group two, they offered to buy them a coffee or something, a small a small token of appreciation.
00:17:45.790 --> 00:17:47.708
And group three.
00:17:45.790 --> 00:17:47.708
They said, can you do me a favor?
00:17:47.708 --> 00:17:53.165
And it was fascinating because group one kind of behaved like you would think they sort of were exchanging value for money.
00:17:53.165 --> 00:17:55.333
The third group were happy to do a favor.
00:17:55.333 --> 00:18:02.790
The group that agreed the least frequently was the ones who were offered a coffee, because you took them out of the mindset of I'm doing something good.
00:18:02.790 --> 00:18:04.583
It turned into a commercial transaction.
00:18:04.583 --> 00:18:07.790
And then they were like, well, you're just underpaying me for my work.
00:18:07.833 --> 00:18:08.833
That's right.
00:18:08.833 --> 00:18:09.208
Yeah.
00:18:09.208 --> 00:18:12.165
Whereas when people were happy to like, sure, I'll give you a little bit advice.
00:18:12.165 --> 00:18:14.165
It's not, you know that won't hurt me.
00:18:14.165 --> 00:18:14.958
Exactly.
00:18:14.958 --> 00:18:17.415
And people, people are often willing to do that.
00:18:17.415 --> 00:18:19.083
So yeah. Interesting advice is free.
00:18:19.083 --> 00:18:27.875
It doesn't it's it doesn't cost a lot of energy or time, you know, especially if you give them two options, which is why I think that approach from Austin Belcak is genius.
00:18:27.875 --> 00:18:40.915
It's a really good approach because it's sort of it's in between if you don't feel comfortable yet asking, I mean, asking for, a 15 minute, 20 minute chat, it's a really good way to actually move the ball, nudge the ball forward.
00:18:41.083 --> 00:18:41.708
That's right.
00:18:41.708 --> 00:18:42.333
Yeah, exactly.
00:18:42.333 --> 00:18:54.083
And so, you know, that's one of the things that I, that I talk about often in, on on my, on my what profile I guess is, you know, that when you're, when you're trying to network with people, try to give them as much value as possible.
00:18:54.083 --> 00:18:59.250
And people are always I get a lot of, feedback that's like, well, I don't have anything to give. Not true.
00:18:59.250 --> 00:19:00.500
You have tons of stuff to give.
00:19:00.500 --> 00:19:03.540
Book recommendations, movie recommendations, share an article.
00:19:03.583 --> 00:19:05.040
Those things are completely free.
00:19:05.040 --> 00:19:08.875
It's copy paste, copy, paste a link, copy, paste the title of a book.
00:19:09.083 --> 00:19:10.125
That's it. You've done your job.
00:19:10.125 --> 00:19:11.415
So tell me more about what that looks like.
00:19:11.415 --> 00:19:14.540
Jonathan, I'm I'm trying to start by giving value.
00:19:14.540 --> 00:19:16.833
How do I like do I just reach.
00:19:16.833 --> 00:19:24.458
Is there someone I've already connected with because I don't I wouldn't randomly necessarily just DM someone and say thought you might find this interesting.
00:19:24.458 --> 00:19:28.208
Is it is there something I would I queue to that it's only I've actually done that too.
00:19:28.208 --> 00:19:39.333
So there's, you know like if there's someone I'm following and I love their stuff and you know, I'll comment on it and then, like this person, I might mess up her last name, Colleen Paulson, who helps.
00:19:39.333 --> 00:19:42.125
She has this, this program called Ageless Careers.
00:19:42.125 --> 00:19:45.583
And so she helps people that are over 50 get to the workforce.
00:19:45.583 --> 00:19:50.500
And she's always posting about, like, how do you how do you like, de-age your resume?
00:19:50.500 --> 00:19:54.333
Like, what are the things that the signals that you remove so that, you know, you get more interviews?
00:19:54.333 --> 00:19:56.958
Because ageism is a is a huge thing, especially in the tech space.
00:19:56.958 --> 00:19:58.833
So so I love her stuff.
00:19:58.833 --> 00:20:05.750
And I saw an article from some company for, Forbes or Harvard Business Review, and I just sent her the article.
00:20:05.750 --> 00:20:07.040
I've never had a conversation with her.
00:20:07.040 --> 00:20:12.040
And I'm like, hey, I think you might like this because I know that she can then take that article and turn it into content, right?
00:20:12.040 --> 00:20:13.915
Or help or help her clients.
00:20:13.915 --> 00:20:19.708
So whether or not she responds doesn't really matter too much to me because I know that I gave her something.
00:20:19.708 --> 00:20:23.540
Yeah, I know that I helped in some way, however, however minor it might be.
00:20:23.915 --> 00:20:26.958
So that's a great way to, to start off.
00:20:26.958 --> 00:20:34.625
I mean, like, if you like someone's content, if you're on LinkedIn, comment on their content, like add to the conversation, add the value in your comment.
00:20:34.875 --> 00:20:35.333
Right.
00:20:35.333 --> 00:20:36.583
And this has happened multiple times.
00:20:36.583 --> 00:20:40.165
People reach out to me, they'll say, hey, thank you very much for supporting my content.
00:20:40.165 --> 00:20:40.625
Okay, great.
00:20:40.625 --> 00:20:43.708
Now they open the door for me to have this conversation.
00:20:43.708 --> 00:20:46.625
I can continue to add value.
00:20:43.708 --> 00:20:46.625
I can give them another article.
00:20:46.625 --> 00:20:49.000
I can get them, you know, a recommendation.
00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:54.458
So using Colleen Paulson as an example, I've been supporting her content for a while and now we're connected.
00:20:54.458 --> 00:20:59.290
So now I can send her DMs without having to have an inmail or a premium account or anything like that.
00:20:59.290 --> 00:21:01.750
And I'm not doing it because I want something in return.
00:21:01.750 --> 00:21:06.040
I'm just doing it because I know how hard it is to come up with ideas for content, you know?
00:21:06.040 --> 00:21:13.790
And I'm like, hey, I, I want to support other creators, especially if they're doing something meaningful, like making sure that people are employed.
00:21:13.790 --> 00:21:16.540
So I think if you take that approach, it's a little altruistic.
00:21:16.540 --> 00:21:18.250
And some people might not like to do that.
00:21:18.250 --> 00:21:21.458
If you just give as much as you can, eventually it comes back to you.
00:21:21.708 --> 00:21:25.540
I've gotten support from so many people that they're like, hey, you're oh, you're so consistent.
00:21:25.540 --> 00:21:28.333
Like you're and you're always giving value, like, how can I help you?
00:21:28.333 --> 00:21:30.458
And I've never asked for anything.
00:21:28.333 --> 00:21:30.458
I'm like, okay, sure.
00:21:30.458 --> 00:21:31.790
Yeah, let's talk about that.
00:21:31.790 --> 00:21:45.875
It's one of the, I think, the most underappreciated things, in looking in life in general, but definitely in a job search too, of if you can become the person who is constantly giving value to constantly helping other people.
00:21:45.875 --> 00:21:53.000
And I think the the angle of article and podcasts and stuff like that, just sharing that stuff is so underappreciated.
00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:55.000
I agree, it's actually a very good point.
00:21:55.000 --> 00:22:00.208
You don't actually have to know the person you just, hey, I noticed you, you talk about this stuff or you've posted about this before.
00:22:00.208 --> 00:22:02.333
I thought you might find this interesting.
00:22:00.208 --> 00:22:02.333
That's right.
00:22:02.333 --> 00:22:03.375
Yeah, you're totally right.
00:22:03.375 --> 00:22:07.000
But I think that the more there's, you know, I love Adam Grant's book Give and Take.
00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:07.375
Right?
00:22:07.375 --> 00:22:17.165
And I am utterly convinced that the more aggressively and generously you do good for others and give value, the better and more things come back to you. Absolutely.
00:22:17.165 --> 00:22:19.915
You know who's a who's a genius at this? Gary Vaynerchuk.
00:22:19.915 --> 00:22:20.375
How so?
00:22:20.375 --> 00:22:23.333
So I agree with you, but I'm curious of how you how you think of it that way.
00:22:23.333 --> 00:22:29.250
You look at all of his content, whether it's his videos on YouTube, his stuff on LinkedIn.
00:22:29.250 --> 00:22:32.040
He did a lot of, Snapchat stuff.
00:22:32.040 --> 00:22:34.415
He's always giving some insight.
00:22:34.415 --> 00:22:36.625
He's always giving a recommendation.
00:22:36.625 --> 00:22:43.540
He records himself when he's at conferences and stuff talking to people, and he'll just like, talk to them for, you know, for a couple minutes and give them advice.
00:22:43.540 --> 00:22:47.000
He's just like gives and gives and gives and gives and he doesn't ask for anything.
00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:48.083
Return.
00:22:48.083 --> 00:22:50.333
Yeah. That's not to say that he's not successful.
00:22:50.333 --> 00:22:52.458
He has a very successful marketing agency.
00:22:52.458 --> 00:22:55.000
He's got a great PR team. He's got all that.
00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:56.665
But he's always giving stuff.
00:22:56.665 --> 00:23:00.540
And he said in a couple of videos he doesn't expect anyone to buy anything.
00:23:00.708 --> 00:23:03.708
Like he'll give stuff just because he wants to give.
00:23:03.875 --> 00:23:05.500
And if you want to buy from him, great.
00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:08.083
But if you don't, that's great to like.
00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:08.083
He'll still give to you.
00:23:08.083 --> 00:23:12.250
And I think that that approach, especially for networking like that, works so well.
00:23:12.375 --> 00:23:14.040
You know, it works shockingly well.
00:23:14.040 --> 00:23:19.708
I mean, and it's so it's so under appreciated because it doesn't, at first blush, doesn't feel intuitively like it should.
00:23:19.915 --> 00:23:21.125
Right. Because it's counterintuitive.
00:23:21.125 --> 00:23:22.790
So like I don't know about that.
00:23:22.790 --> 00:23:25.250
But when you if you do it, it's it's a huge win.
00:23:25.250 --> 00:23:27.375
There are a bunch of different roads.
00:23:25.250 --> 00:23:27.375
I want to go down very quickly.
00:23:27.375 --> 00:23:30.375
Can I just ask you, you talked about, LinkedIn.
00:23:30.375 --> 00:23:32.040
You help people with their LinkedIn profile.
00:23:32.040 --> 00:23:39.415
What are the main things, that, like, just maybe three quick hits on, what people can do to improve their LinkedIn profile?
00:23:39.583 --> 00:23:40.250
Okay.
00:23:40.250 --> 00:23:46.040
So I want a caveat this by saying I'm not a personal brand builder or anything like that, right?
00:23:46.040 --> 00:23:52.333
I know that that personal brand is like the thing and there are many people that that you can, you can look at for, for advice on that.
00:23:52.333 --> 00:23:56.375
But what I would say that are the things that make the difference.
00:23:56.375 --> 00:23:59.333
And I'll give you an example of of how it made a difference for one of my clients.
00:23:59.333 --> 00:24:06.125
The banner, the headline and having some sort of like, like a story or a story driven about section.
00:24:06.125 --> 00:24:13.083
Okay, so I had a client that I worked with, he was just laid off from a company and he was grossly underpaid.
00:24:13.208 --> 00:24:20.415
He was overworked the way it all went down as he went in basically to his boss's office and said, hey, you know, I think that, I should get a promotion.
00:24:20.415 --> 00:24:22.250
And the boss was like, oh, you think you should get a promotion?
00:24:22.250 --> 00:24:24.583
All right.
00:24:22.250 --> 00:24:24.583
You're laid off. Your last day is Friday.
00:24:26.333 --> 00:24:30.375
And that's and yeah, it was a very it was not good.
00:24:30.540 --> 00:24:34.250
So he reaches out to me that week and says, hey, listen, I just got laid off.
00:24:34.375 --> 00:24:36.958
He told me the story and I said, all right, so let's work together.
00:24:36.958 --> 00:24:44.250
And going back to what I was saying earlier, the first thing I do is I define someone's Northstar, and then I work on their resume and profile, what I call the rebrand.
00:24:44.250 --> 00:24:47.625
And so we looked at his profile and we changed a couple of things.
00:24:47.625 --> 00:24:49.833
His banner, his banner didn't say anything.
00:24:49.833 --> 00:24:52.958
So we changed his banner to include some key skills, some key impact.
00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:54.875
His headline, same thing.
00:24:54.875 --> 00:24:57.208
And then his about section.
00:24:54.875 --> 00:24:57.208
And we just fleshed that out.
00:24:57.208 --> 00:24:58.165
Everything else was fine.
00:24:58.165 --> 00:24:58.958
The experience.
00:24:58.958 --> 00:25:01.958
And you know, I just recommended a couple minor tweaks.
00:25:02.083 --> 00:25:05.708
So shortly after we did his his we fixed up everything.
00:25:05.833 --> 00:25:23.415
He got a call from a recruiter and the recruiter said, hey, I've been looking for someone to fill this role for the last year, and I just decided to change up my search criteria, and your profile popped up with all the keywords that turned into three interviews and it turned into a job offer.
00:25:23.415 --> 00:25:28.000
So he made $66,000 more than what he was making at his previous position.
00:25:28.458 --> 00:25:34.875
And he's now running an entire IT department for one of the biggest dairy manufacturing companies. Wow.
00:25:36.415 --> 00:25:46.415
That was the power of improving his profile and his resume and his cover letter and everything else, like we did the whole shebang.
00:25:46.415 --> 00:25:47.000
Yeah.
00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:58.000
And let's dive into the headline conceptually, what is before and after look like people don't even have a headline, or they just fill it with a bunch of stuff that's irrelevant to what they're looking for in terms of work.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:25:59.375
And just so we're all talking about the same thing.
00:25:59.375 --> 00:26:03.625
The headline is the thing where you have that short description under your name, right? Is that right under your name?
00:26:03.625 --> 00:26:05.000
That's right, that's right. Yeah.
00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:08.665
And and some people would just put their title like software engineer.
00:26:08.790 --> 00:26:11.000
Some people put things that they're interested in.
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:21.583
You know, some people try to be clever and say funny things in their headline, and that's fine if you're not looking for a job, but if you're looking for a job, recruiters are looking at your profile to see if you're a good fit for one of their roles.
00:26:21.583 --> 00:26:23.290
So they're looking for keywords.
00:26:23.290 --> 00:26:25.790
So the before is like ambiguous.
00:26:25.790 --> 00:26:28.750
It's not not descriptive.
00:26:25.790 --> 00:26:28.750
It doesn't show your value.
00:26:28.750 --> 00:26:32.125
The after is you showing exactly who you are.
00:26:32.125 --> 00:26:33.915
What are the things that you do and who do you do it for.
00:26:33.915 --> 00:26:45.790
So something like software engineer at company Vertical Character Pipe and then something that you've done in the past or some key skills like, for example, a developer might be a frontend developer.
00:26:45.790 --> 00:26:55.625
So they'll say react, JavaScript and HTML, CSS, you know, and and that could literally be enough for someone to look at you and say, you're qualified for this position.
00:26:55.750 --> 00:26:59.708
You just need to know what the right head what the right keywords are to put in there.
00:26:59.708 --> 00:27:04.625
And you know that from job descriptions, if you're looking at job descriptions, what are the keywords that they mention often?
00:27:04.625 --> 00:27:07.958
Yeah, I thought that was a super interesting insight or something you wrote recently.
00:27:07.958 --> 00:27:22.500
In terms of, you know, if you're struggling to get get interest, go look, you know, five, six, seven job descriptions of jobs you're interested in, and want to do, and look at the keywords and see if anyone's going to see any of those keywords on your resume or profile.
00:27:22.540 --> 00:27:23.415
That's right. Yeah.
00:27:23.415 --> 00:27:29.375
So one of the the roles that I help people with is, product management.
00:27:29.375 --> 00:27:36.583
And so product managers, you know, manage like the roadmap for a project for a product or other.
00:27:36.583 --> 00:27:37.083
Sorry.
00:27:37.083 --> 00:27:41.708
Sometimes they do customer outreach, like they'll talk to people and they'll say, hey, you know, you're using our product.
00:27:41.708 --> 00:27:46.540
Like, what are some of the things that you'd like to see improved or what are some of the difficulties that you have?
00:27:46.540 --> 00:27:51.708
Or they might observe a user using their product, and so they grab all those insights to gather them.
00:27:51.708 --> 00:27:58.208
And then they try to come up with like basically a hypothesis, okay, if we add this feature, this is how people are going to react.
00:27:58.208 --> 00:28:04.708
So most job descriptions will say if you're going to be a product manager, you need to know how to define a vision for a product.
00:28:05.125 --> 00:28:05.375
Right?
00:28:05.375 --> 00:28:09.790
Which is like gather the insights and then generate some hypothesis, like what does this look long term?
00:28:10.208 --> 00:28:12.833
And you need to be able to define the roadmap okay.
00:28:12.833 --> 00:28:26.208
We're going to we're going to release this feature in Q1, this feature in Q2, this feature in Q3, those two keywords show up on like 99.9 90% of all product manager job descriptions.
00:28:26.208 --> 00:28:33.125
So when I look at a resume for a product manager, if I see that those two things are missing, I immediately know why they might not be getting contacted.
00:28:33.290 --> 00:28:34.958
So we have to put those in there.
00:28:34.958 --> 00:28:40.208
And then there's, you know, a bunch of other ones, like if you're a software developer, you have to have version control, right?
00:28:40.208 --> 00:28:42.915
If you're a project manager, you have to have risk management.
00:28:42.915 --> 00:28:50.665
Like there are these keywords that and I know this because I've seen so many of them at this point that I just know intuitively, like, what are the keywords that I'm looking for?
00:28:50.665 --> 00:28:51.415
For certain roles?
00:28:51.415 --> 00:28:54.208
I'm in the tech space only, like I don't do anything else.
00:28:54.208 --> 00:28:56.833
And can it be that simple where like super simple?
00:28:56.833 --> 00:28:59.165
Yeah. Don't have those.
00:28:56.833 --> 00:28:59.165
You're not getting calls.
00:28:59.165 --> 00:29:01.165
You do have those.
00:28:59.165 --> 00:29:01.165
You are getting calls. Yep.
00:29:01.165 --> 00:29:01.833
That's part of it.
00:29:01.833 --> 00:29:11.165
Because when I talk to job to to recruiters I ask them like, okay, so now you have let's say 600 from my example earlier 600 resumes or applications.
00:29:11.375 --> 00:29:12.708
How do you sift through them?
00:29:12.708 --> 00:29:16.540
They'll say, well, the first thing we do is we whittle down the applications by keywords.
00:29:16.540 --> 00:29:21.875
So in their system that has all the applications and everything, they'll do a keyword search and they'll say, okay, what?
00:29:21.875 --> 00:29:23.250
Like let's say product management.
00:29:23.250 --> 00:29:23.625
All right.
00:29:23.625 --> 00:29:26.040
Someone who knows how to define a roadmap.
00:29:26.040 --> 00:29:27.583
All right. Roadmap might be the keyword.
00:29:27.583 --> 00:29:30.583
So of all the applications how many have that keyword.
00:29:30.583 --> 00:29:32.083
That's the first pass.
00:29:32.083 --> 00:29:35.415
So maybe it went from 600 to 400 okay cool.
00:29:35.415 --> 00:29:38.375
What if we do another keyword on top of that. Right.
00:29:38.375 --> 00:29:41.290
And their keyword list comes from the job description.
00:29:41.290 --> 00:29:43.125
That's like not magic right.
00:29:43.125 --> 00:29:46.125
Yeah. No, but it's a it's a great insight.
00:29:46.333 --> 00:29:46.708
Interesting.
00:29:46.708 --> 00:29:49.958
And so they whittle down whittle down until they find the people that are qualified.
00:29:49.958 --> 00:29:52.540
And then they decide to give them a phone screen.
00:29:52.540 --> 00:29:54.290
So like I'll give you some stats though.
00:29:54.290 --> 00:30:00.290
On one recruiter I talked to said after a day she got 800 applications.
00:30:01.415 --> 00:30:04.500
Of the 800, like 20% were qualified.
00:30:05.500 --> 00:30:08.875
Of the 20%, she spoke to maybe 20 people.
00:30:08.915 --> 00:30:15.083
Of those, a portion, let's say like less than ten went on to interviews, four made it to the final round.
00:30:15.083 --> 00:30:16.333
Then one person got an offer.
00:30:16.333 --> 00:30:22.875
So at each at each layer there is like a reduction of applications because they realistically can't go through all those.
00:30:22.875 --> 00:30:25.875
So keyword search first, then they skim the resume.
00:30:26.040 --> 00:30:28.583
They're looking for other keywords qualifications.
00:30:28.583 --> 00:30:30.458
Then they decided to the phone screen and so on.
00:30:30.458 --> 00:30:31.708
So the first thing is keywords.
00:30:31.708 --> 00:30:33.250
The second thing is impact.
00:30:33.250 --> 00:30:38.915
So a lot of people, when they talk about polishing a resume, they say you have you have to put your accomplishments.
00:30:38.915 --> 00:30:42.790
When I say the word accomplishments to jobseekers, they freak out.
00:30:42.833 --> 00:30:45.333
They're like, I don't have accomplishments for my job.
00:30:45.333 --> 00:30:46.833
So I said, okay, well, what about impact?
00:30:46.833 --> 00:30:48.708
Have you ever impacted your company?
00:30:48.708 --> 00:30:51.583
Like, have you ever earned the money?
00:30:48.708 --> 00:30:51.583
Have you ever saved the money?
00:30:51.583 --> 00:30:52.833
And they'll say, yeah, I've done that.
00:30:52.833 --> 00:30:53.290
All right. Cool.
00:30:53.290 --> 00:30:56.458
So I've learned that you don't tell somebody to put their accomplishments.
00:30:56.458 --> 00:30:57.708
You tell someone to put their impact.
00:30:57.708 --> 00:31:01.290
So anyway, so once I mentioned the word impact that part gets a lot easier.
00:31:01.540 --> 00:31:03.583
So it's the amount of money they've made.
00:31:03.583 --> 00:31:05.290
Did they speed up a process.
00:31:05.290 --> 00:31:07.333
How much data have they managed. You know and so on.
00:31:07.333 --> 00:31:09.165
There's like a bunch of metrics that you can add in.
00:31:10.333 --> 00:31:12.875
And that's answering the question of like so what?
00:31:12.875 --> 00:31:16.750
So for example, most resumes you'll see like a responsible for bullet.
00:31:17.290 --> 00:31:23.083
So a bullet that says like I handle customer support requests period.
00:31:23.165 --> 00:31:23.665
Okay. Cool.
00:31:23.665 --> 00:31:26.415
So you've done your job. I'm happy you've done your job right.
00:31:26.415 --> 00:31:28.083
That's what we're paying you for. Okay.
00:31:28.083 --> 00:31:31.875
So then the next question you should ask yourself when you're looking at your own resume is so what.
00:31:31.875 --> 00:31:33.625
So you handled customer support requests.
00:31:33.625 --> 00:31:35.333
So what what does that mean.
00:31:35.333 --> 00:31:38.665
Does that mean that you saved the company money?
00:31:38.915 --> 00:31:45.290
Does that mean that you improved the user experience of your product for the customer?
00:31:45.290 --> 00:31:47.290
Like what was the outcome of doing that.
00:31:47.290 --> 00:31:53.333
And so if you have those two things, your keywords and your impact, you're most likely going to get interviews relatively quickly.
00:31:53.500 --> 00:31:58.790
So when I do that with and so people are like, well, I don't believe that, I customize my, my, you know, my resume all the time.
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:01.833
But when I do that with my clients, I walk them through the process.
00:32:01.833 --> 00:32:11.915
I show them how to do it, how to parse the job description, how to show their impact, how to pick the right keywords literally within 1 to 2 weeks they start getting interviews and I always tell them like, that's the easy part.
00:32:11.915 --> 00:32:13.958
The getting the interviews, the easy part.
00:32:13.958 --> 00:32:16.415
The hard part is convincing them to give you an offer.
00:32:16.415 --> 00:32:18.625
Right. So and that's where I spend most of my time.
00:32:18.625 --> 00:32:20.375
Let’s talk about that next then.
00:32:20.375 --> 00:32:25.333
In terms of preparation, that's something you highlighted before I’ve seen you write about it extensively.
00:32:25.415 --> 00:32:28.665
Let's talk about how you recommend people prepare for interviews.
00:32:28.665 --> 00:32:32.375
I know there's only so much we can get into in this time, but maybe some of the high level stuff.
00:32:32.375 --> 00:32:34.165
So the first thing is do your research.
00:32:34.165 --> 00:32:40.415
And when I say research, I know most people will say, well, I've read the website like I've looked at the website and I understand what they're doing.
00:32:40.415 --> 00:32:41.790
That's not really research.
00:32:41.790 --> 00:32:43.415
Like for job preparation.
00:32:43.415 --> 00:32:44.665
You've got to do a lot more than that.
00:32:44.665 --> 00:32:46.958
So you're going to have to look at news articles.
00:32:46.958 --> 00:32:48.958
You're going to have to look at YouTube videos.
00:32:48.958 --> 00:33:02.290
Like one example that's genius, also from Austin Belcak,(you know, I want to make sure that he gets his credit) look for the leadership team of a company and then Google their name plus YouTube, and then see if you can find interviews with those people.
00:33:02.290 --> 00:33:04.040
What are the sorts of things that they're talking about?
00:33:04.040 --> 00:33:05.790
What are the insights that they're generating?
00:33:05.790 --> 00:33:07.915
What what are the things that they're worried about?
00:33:07.915 --> 00:33:10.500
What predictions do they have.
00:33:07.915 --> 00:33:10.500
And take notes on that.
00:33:10.500 --> 00:33:11.915
Right. Write down questions.
00:33:11.915 --> 00:33:16.750
So now you have something to to speak about when they ask you, like why are you interested in working here?
00:33:16.750 --> 00:33:17.915
Like what brings you here?
00:33:17.915 --> 00:33:20.540
Right. At some point they're going to say, do you have any questions for me?
00:33:20.540 --> 00:33:26.583
So if you've already prepared them ahead of time, just pull out your list of questions that always impresses interviewers.
00:33:26.583 --> 00:33:29.375
Like, oh, you actually prepared questions ahead of time.
00:33:29.375 --> 00:33:30.125
Like it's not something that’s common.
00:33:30.125 --> 00:33:34.000
So would you advocate actually pulling out a list like would you advocate making a list of questions.
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:34.125
Yeah.
00:33:34.125 --> 00:33:45.290
Literally have have a document like a notebook that's by your table and have questions, have notes like, hey, I noticed that like for example, I was helping a client prepare for an interview with Apple.
00:33:45.500 --> 00:33:48.915
And one of the questions was, how would you improve an Apple product?
00:33:49.125 --> 00:33:49.625
Right.
00:33:49.625 --> 00:33:55.415
So I could say, hey, I've noticed that in Apple Pay you're missing bills like splitting the bill, right?
00:33:55.415 --> 00:33:58.750
And all my friends, we all have Apple Pay and we all like to split the bill.
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:01.375
So I know at least ten people want it. Right.
00:34:01.375 --> 00:34:06.583
So now you've got some insights so you can say, you know, and I've noticed that you haven't included it in the last three releases of Apple Pay.
00:34:06.583 --> 00:34:07.375
Like what's up with that?
00:34:07.375 --> 00:34:10.375
Well, now that's an interesting conversation right.
00:34:10.375 --> 00:34:12.958
So I can make a recommendation. Right.
00:34:12.958 --> 00:34:20.708
Well you just hit something very interesting to and that is the idea of having a conversation instead of having a Q&A.
00:34:20.916 --> 00:34:21.875
Yes, yes.
00:34:21.875 --> 00:34:27.666
So that is actually another thing that I like to talk about often is turning an interview into a conversation.
00:34:27.791 --> 00:34:29.958
And the only way you can really do that is by asking questions.
00:34:29.958 --> 00:34:34.958
So ask like when they ask you a question, for example, don't immediately give a response, right?
00:34:34.958 --> 00:34:37.625
Repeat the question and then maybe ask a follow up question.
00:34:37.625 --> 00:34:40.750
So for example, if the question was how do you improve Apple Pay?
00:34:40.958 --> 00:34:44.458
You could say, so you want me to to talk about how I can improve Apple Pay.
00:34:44.708 --> 00:34:47.000
So now I haven't answered the question with a question. Right.
00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:47.416
Okay.
00:34:47.416 --> 00:34:52.958
So in what terms like should we be improving Apple Pay for who like for what customers?
00:34:52.958 --> 00:34:55.000
So now I have the interviewer say something.
00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.291
So now we're in like a brainstorming session.
00:34:57.291 --> 00:35:05.000
What I like to tell people is imagine that the interview is not an it's not an interview in the way that like you would interview a celebrity.
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:05.666
Imagine that.
00:35:05.666 --> 00:35:08.666
It's a trial run for like a brainstorming session.
00:35:08.708 --> 00:35:12.333
Someone came to you and said, hey, you know, we're we're getting slaughtered on the market.
00:35:12.333 --> 00:35:13.875
We need to improve this product.
00:35:13.875 --> 00:35:16.875
So a bunch of people get into a room and you start brainstorming ideas.
00:35:17.041 --> 00:35:23.208
So if you can turn the person on the other side into a collaborator with you, well, now they can see you as a coworker.
00:35:23.416 --> 00:35:26.500
They experience, what it's like to work with you in a short amount of time.
00:35:26.708 --> 00:35:30.458
But if all you're doing is answering questions, that doesn't really make that impression.
00:35:30.458 --> 00:35:34.000
So yeah, so do your homework so that you have questions to ask.
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:37.208
And so you have these interesting insights so that you can have that conversation.
00:35:37.416 --> 00:35:41.875
And what you're showing them also is like how you come prepared to meetings I'm going to do my research.
00:35:41.875 --> 00:35:49.000
I'm going to, you know, take initiative and talk to people who are actual customers of this product, you know, or users of the product.
00:35:49.208 --> 00:35:51.166
And that's what you that's what you should be expecting.
00:35:51.166 --> 00:35:58.583
Every single day I come here, there's a really interesting subtlety that you, you highlighted there, which I think most people often people don't appreciate.
00:35:58.583 --> 00:36:02.083
And that is that interviews are sort of like a risk reduction exercise.
00:36:02.083 --> 00:36:03.791
Right? Like, so what are my risks?
00:36:03.791 --> 00:36:09.458
Suppose if I'm interviewing someone for a job, you know, one of my risks is that they come across really good in interviews.
00:36:09.666 --> 00:36:12.958
They arrive and it's completely, you know, completely different story.
00:36:12.958 --> 00:36:17.708
And, you know, maybe something I didn't pick up in the interview, you know, they're tough to work with.
00:36:17.708 --> 00:36:31.000
It's such an interesting insight that the more you can create a proxy experience for what it's like to work with you, the more whether they're conscious of it or not, the more you're reducing their risk and your increase in the likelihood that you get selected. That's right.
00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:41.083
So there's, there's a research paper that was published in the I think it's the Journal of Management, and it was a study about pitches in Hollywood.
00:36:41.083 --> 00:36:48.333
So the research question or like what they were trying to figure out, the objective was why is it that some pitches get picked up and others don't?
00:36:48.583 --> 00:36:52.291
So in Hollywood, you and obviously I'm not from Hollywood, right.
00:36:52.291 --> 00:36:53.708
So I'm getting all this from the paper.
00:36:53.708 --> 00:37:05.458
So in Hollywood, if you're going to do a pitch, you put together sort of the idea, and then you walk into a room and you pitch this to a bunch of producers, and the producers are in the paper are called the catchers.
00:37:05.458 --> 00:37:10.208
So the catchers are going to listen to the pitch and decide whether or not they want to fund it.
00:37:10.208 --> 00:37:14.416
Imagine like a 2 or 3 hour movie might be a couple million dollars of an investment, right?
00:37:14.416 --> 00:37:15.583
Or a TV series.
00:37:15.583 --> 00:37:22.083
So what they're trying to figure out is, is this person creative enough to put in that work to, or are they going to have enough ideas?
00:37:22.083 --> 00:37:23.541
Can we work with that person?
00:37:23.541 --> 00:37:25.375
Can they take feedback on their idea?
00:37:25.375 --> 00:37:27.791
And so the researchers like observe the pitches.
00:37:27.791 --> 00:37:38.291
And then they interviewed the catchers and they found that the catchers, the producers, they make their opinion about the person and whether they are creative the moment they walk in the room.
00:37:38.500 --> 00:37:39.875
Do you look creative?
00:37:39.875 --> 00:37:41.583
Like what does a creative person look like?
00:37:41.583 --> 00:37:46.208
Well, they might have different colored stuff like, you know, it's multicolored.
00:37:46.208 --> 00:37:48.125
They might wear certain kinds of glasses.
00:37:48.125 --> 00:37:52.125
They might come in like, sort of like they rolled out of bed, right?
00:37:52.125 --> 00:37:58.750
Their hair's all messed up, you know, and that sort of stuff gives them gives them confidence that you are a creative person.
00:37:58.750 --> 00:38:00.458
Then they listen to the pitch.
00:38:00.458 --> 00:38:04.750
If you don't take feedback well on your pitch, they know they can't work with you.
00:38:04.750 --> 00:38:06.916
So most likely that pitch will get rejected.
00:38:06.916 --> 00:38:11.958
So there was like, I don't know, like ten different like stereotypes or I don't think they call them stereotypes.
00:38:11.958 --> 00:38:13.708
They call them like prototypes or something.
00:38:13.708 --> 00:38:17.500
And if you fit one of them, you're you're more likely to get the pitch accepted.
00:38:17.708 --> 00:38:22.750
So taking that idea and applying it to to job interviews, you're applying to be an engineer.
00:38:22.833 --> 00:38:24.291
What does an engineer look like?
00:38:24.291 --> 00:38:26.208
What is an engineer sound like?
00:38:26.208 --> 00:38:27.125
How do they behave?
00:38:27.125 --> 00:38:28.458
What are the sorts of things that they know?
00:38:28.458 --> 00:38:36.958
If you can demonstrate that within the small amount of time that you have the 30, the 40 minutes, whatever that gives them confidence that you're worth the money, right?
00:38:36.958 --> 00:38:41.708
Like a person who's going for an engineering position makes six figures on average.
00:38:41.708 --> 00:38:43.375
How do I know that's a worthy investment?
00:38:43.375 --> 00:38:45.625
How do I know you're not going to cost me more? Right.
00:38:45.625 --> 00:38:50.791
You need to give me at least 1 to 2 X like my return on, return.
00:38:50.791 --> 00:38:56.916
So if I'm giving you a $100k, I need at least $200k value or $300k or whatever, right?
00:38:54.583 --> 00:38:56.916
Whatever makes sense for the business.
00:38:56.916 --> 00:39:06.125
But if I hire you and you're costing me money because I have to keep mentoring you and coaching you and cleaning up your work, well, now you're not not worth it to me anymore.
00:39:06.333 --> 00:39:07.458
It's a bad investment.
00:39:07.458 --> 00:39:13.791
So you have to try to demonstrate that as much as possible on this, like, research paper is just fascinating.
00:39:13.833 --> 00:39:16.541
I'd love to do that research from an interview standpoint.
00:39:16.541 --> 00:39:24.041
Like, I wanted to go to a bunch of local businesses and observe their interviews and then talk to the interviewers and kind of just basically repeat the whole thing. But for interviews.
00:39:24.041 --> 00:39:28.458
Then I got distracted and I was like, I'm going to talk to job seekers and listen to like, you know what?
00:39:28.541 --> 00:39:29.708
What's happening on the market.
00:39:29.708 --> 00:39:32.833
So I did a different research study, but that's something I might do in the future.
00:39:32.833 --> 00:39:34.291
So that's interesting.
00:39:34.291 --> 00:39:39.458
Yeah, I mean, it's it's one of those things where a bad hire is not producing the work you need them to produce.
00:39:39.708 --> 00:39:40.958
They're sucking up your time.
00:39:40.958 --> 00:39:42.583
They might be affecting morale.
00:39:42.583 --> 00:39:45.958
And then if you have to separate, then that's highly costly for everyone.
00:39:46.250 --> 00:39:48.458
And then you have to go do this whole process all over again.
00:39:48.458 --> 00:39:49.583
Right. So it's, Yeah.
00:39:49.583 --> 00:39:51.666
No, it can be a really costly exercise.
00:39:51.666 --> 00:39:55.208
So, Jonathan, let's talk a little bit about attitude, confidence.
00:39:55.541 --> 00:40:00.458
There's there's a bunch of things that you have to be able to do successfully to succeed in this process.
00:40:00.458 --> 00:40:02.958
Why don’t I let you go from there and follow up with more questions.
00:40:02.958 --> 00:40:03.750
Okay. Yeah.
00:40:03.750 --> 00:40:14.500
So the thing with most job seekers is that when they when they've been on the market for so long, for six months, let's say their confidence is shot like it is barely existent at that point.
00:40:14.500 --> 00:40:22.875
This is one of the reasons why I strongly advocate against the spray and pray method, because it seems like it won't impact you.
00:40:23.083 --> 00:40:33.291
But every time that you submit 100 applications or more and you don't get any response, or all you get is automatic rejection, it like chips away at your your confidence.
00:40:33.291 --> 00:40:34.958
Like imagine like a stone.
00:40:34.958 --> 00:40:36.708
You know, a person who's like carving stone.
00:40:36.708 --> 00:40:40.708
It's like a little bit of stone disappears every time, you know, you get that rejection.
00:40:40.708 --> 00:40:46.708
So the first thing that we're going to do is that I do when I'm working with my clients, is that I help them rebuild their confidence.
00:40:46.708 --> 00:40:51.666
And the only way that I can do that is by practicing all of these skills that I'm teaching them.
00:40:51.666 --> 00:40:54.125
So every week I do mock interviews with them.
00:40:54.125 --> 00:41:04.958
I do two mock interviews on Friday, small groups like 5 to 6 people, and we just go through like just rep it like this Friday, for example, we did elevator pitches.
00:41:04.958 --> 00:41:12.666
We did a couple behavioral questions and then a problem solving question or like what we would call a technical question, an engineer in like a software interview.
00:41:12.833 --> 00:41:15.708
And we just do it over and over and over and I give them feedback.
00:41:15.708 --> 00:41:20.708
Everything is recorded, you know, so they can go back and listen to themselves that by the way.
00:41:20.708 --> 00:41:22.500
One of the most underappreciated things.
00:41:22.500 --> 00:41:22.875
Yeah.
00:41:22.875 --> 00:41:27.541
Recording yourself and seeing it as opposed to just to me like, no, no I got it. Yes.
00:41:27.750 --> 00:41:30.541
And that's one of the things that I know that is hard for people to do.
00:41:30.541 --> 00:41:33.666
It's hard for me to record myself and listen to it and watch it.
00:41:33.875 --> 00:41:40.625
But when someone else is doing it for me, it kind of takes that like pressure of me doing it right away.
00:41:40.625 --> 00:41:42.125
So that's why I record it.
00:41:42.125 --> 00:41:50.541
I record the session, I give everyone the session, and then also I give everyone in the in the call an opportunity to give feedback too.
00:41:50.583 --> 00:41:51.750
So it's not just me, right?
00:41:51.750 --> 00:41:55.208
So like one question I'll ask the group would be like, was that answer clear?
00:41:55.416 --> 00:41:57.583
Do you think that that person answered the question?
00:41:57.583 --> 00:42:05.791
And so hearing different opinions from different people will make you realize, you know, very quickly, like, what are the things you need to think to improve on.
00:42:05.791 --> 00:42:15.416
In doing that, I can get someone to be interview ready and like two, three weeks, which is why it's it's possible to get someone a job within 8 to 9 weeks.
00:42:15.416 --> 00:42:16.125
Yeah. Right.
00:42:16.125 --> 00:42:18.458
There's because they're at that stage where they're ready to.
00:42:18.458 --> 00:42:20.083
Yeah. You have to put in the reps.
00:42:20.083 --> 00:42:23.375
That's right Jonathan you talked about your five core stories.
00:42:23.708 --> 00:42:25.041
Can you tell us more about that?
00:42:25.041 --> 00:42:25.333
Yeah.
00:42:25.333 --> 00:42:29.791
So the five core stories came from actually a huge mistake that I made.
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:34.208
I was preparing for an interview with Amazon a couple of years ago.
00:42:34.208 --> 00:42:38.208
And they’re really big on their leadership principles.
00:42:38.416 --> 00:42:40.333
So it's 12 leadership principles.
00:42:40.333 --> 00:42:46.958
And the recruiter said, if you want to do well in this interview, you need to prepare multiple stories for this conversation.
00:42:46.958 --> 00:42:48.625
And I said, okay, well, how many stories?
00:42:48.625 --> 00:42:53.291
They said, well, at least two stories per leadership principle and I have ADHD.
00:42:53.291 --> 00:42:57.125
One of the problems with people that have ADHD is we take things very literally.
00:42:57.125 --> 00:43:01.458
And so I literally created two stories for every leadership principle.
00:43:01.666 --> 00:43:06.708
I had something like 24 stories, and I had it all in a spreadsheet, and it was all in the STAR method.
00:43:06.708 --> 00:43:11.916
So I had a column for a situation and task and everything, and it was like the worst experience I've ever had.
00:43:11.916 --> 00:43:18.458
When I got into the interview, they'd ask me a question and I'd say, hold on a second, let me look for a story that makes sense and I would.
00:43:18.583 --> 00:43:20.916
I'd spend time just looking at the story.
00:43:20.916 --> 00:43:23.458
And spreadsheets are not like the best thing for writing.
00:43:23.458 --> 00:43:25.541
It's all kind of like jam.
00:43:23.458 --> 00:43:25.541
That is terrible.
00:43:25.541 --> 00:43:27.583
So I did the interview, I completely bombed.
00:43:27.583 --> 00:43:31.083
I didn't even get like one piece of positive feedback, like nothing.
00:43:31.083 --> 00:43:33.500
And after that I said, I can't keep doing this.
00:43:33.500 --> 00:43:35.166
Like there has to be a better way.
00:43:35.166 --> 00:43:39.500
And I thought, what if I reduce the number of stories I prepare for any interview?
00:43:39.666 --> 00:43:42.666
And what if I use the same stories over and over and over again?
00:43:42.708 --> 00:43:47.166
And what if I can answer any behavioral question from these five stories?
00:43:47.166 --> 00:43:49.458
So I, I landed on five, I started with three.
00:43:49.458 --> 00:43:51.833
I tried that and and that worked.
00:43:51.833 --> 00:43:57.666
But I thought, if I'm going to go for a bigger company like Amazon or Google or anything like that, I need to have a couple more.
00:43:57.666 --> 00:43:58.625
So I went to five.
00:43:59.916 --> 00:44:07.208
And so I have a I have five stories and each story can have a different perspective to it.
00:44:07.291 --> 00:44:12.541
So I listed like eight perspectives like failure, conflict, something I'm proud of.
00:44:12.541 --> 00:44:14.208
You know, things like that.
00:44:14.208 --> 00:44:19.916
And if you do the multiplication eight X five core stories, gives you 40 stories in total.
00:44:19.916 --> 00:44:25.125
So I can answer at the very minimal 40 behavioral questions and you'll never be asked 40.
00:44:25.125 --> 00:44:29.250
So once I sort of mastered that, I kept practicing over and over and over.
00:44:29.250 --> 00:44:31.916
I started teaching my clients and I said, okay, I want you to do this.
00:44:31.916 --> 00:44:38.416
And so I showed them how to create their five core stories, and then how to use each core story to answer different behavioral questions.
00:44:38.416 --> 00:44:40.458
And that's part of what we practice in our mock interviews.
00:44:40.458 --> 00:44:47.250
But wouldn't you end up let's say you have six behavioral questions when you're not bringing up the same story again?
00:44:47.250 --> 00:44:50.125
You could, but you would. You would bring up a different perspective.
00:44:50.125 --> 00:44:51.875
So if I’m telling. What’s that look like?
00:44:51.875 --> 00:44:59.125
So if I'm telling a story about conflict, for example, this is a very common question like tell me about a time you had conflict, or tell me about a time you resolve the conflict.
00:44:59.125 --> 00:45:00.208
So I'll tell it.
00:45:00.208 --> 00:45:08.000
I'll tell a story like this one time, I had a developer that I didn't work well with.
00:45:08.250 --> 00:45:13.916
We would always butting heads, and I thought that we were going to have to move to separate teams.
00:45:13.916 --> 00:45:14.458
Right.
00:45:14.458 --> 00:45:21.750
So then, I pulled him into a room, we had a conversation, we hashed it out, and we live happily ever after.
00:45:21.958 --> 00:45:22.916
So that's one perspective.
00:45:22.916 --> 00:45:30.125
So now if somebody would say, well, tell me about your biggest failure, I can say, well, let me go back to that story about this issue that I have with this developer.
00:45:30.125 --> 00:45:37.333
Now, one of the things where I failed, like a place where I failed, is I didn't I didn't get ahead of that problem quickly enough.
00:45:37.333 --> 00:45:40.125
Like I started to see some conflict and I kind of let it go.
00:45:40.125 --> 00:45:44.333
And eventually it got so bad that, you know, like we couldn't work with each other.
00:45:44.333 --> 00:45:52.708
So then if they asked me another question like, tell me about your proudest moment, I could say, well, let me go back to this question, because one of my proudest moments was when and then, you know, continue on the exercise.
00:45:52.708 --> 00:45:56.458
So let's just practice because I don't know what behavioral questions they're going to ask me.
00:45:56.458 --> 00:45:56.791
Right.
00:45:56.791 --> 00:46:00.250
So I may only use that question once that story once in an interview.
00:46:00.416 --> 00:46:07.541
But if they ask me other questions and I can't think of another story, I can say, well, let's go back to this story and I'm going to tell you a different perspective on that.
00:46:07.541 --> 00:46:09.333
That works great for long term projects.
00:46:09.333 --> 00:46:15.750
That works great for if you're doing programs, if you're working with big teams, you're going to have lots of stories like that.
00:46:15.916 --> 00:46:24.541
We just need five that we can rely on every single time you're in an interview and you haven't gotten any sort of pushback, I mean, there's only so many of those questions are going to ask you, right?
00:46:24.541 --> 00:46:26.000
That's right.
00:46:24.541 --> 00:46:26.000
So you cycle through your first five.
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:31.083
And then maybe you cycle through them again and you're not getting you're not getting more than ten quick ten behavioral questions.
00:46:31.083 --> 00:46:31.458
That's right.
00:46:31.458 --> 00:46:32.625
Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:32.625 --> 00:46:35.291
You might get you might get 2 or 3 per interview.
00:46:35.291 --> 00:46:41.208
And if you have five interviews like a loop for one of the FANGS, you might only have ten questions that you have to answer.
00:46:41.208 --> 00:46:42.750
Let's shift our discussion.
00:46:42.750 --> 00:46:47.625
I know we're a bit tight on time here, so I just want to shift our discussion to starting a career up strong.
00:46:47.791 --> 00:46:52.916
What advice would you give to 22 year old Jonathan to really crush it in your career?
00:46:52.916 --> 00:46:55.708
That 22 year old Jonathan struggled to find a job.
00:46:55.708 --> 00:47:04.916
I was applying to work my senior year of college starting at the beginning, like in January, and I didn't get a job until almost the end, the end of that year.
00:47:04.916 --> 00:47:07.916
So for me, my big problem was I didn't know how to build a resume.
00:47:07.958 --> 00:47:10.666
There weren't great resources that were available online.
00:47:10.666 --> 00:47:13.791
There were a couple templates and stuff that you could copy, paste and adjust.
00:47:14.041 --> 00:47:18.791
But now there's all sorts of great, great, great resources out there.
00:47:19.291 --> 00:47:26.791
There are services like, Careerflow.ai to make resumes, there's Teal to make resumes, all sorts of things like that.
00:47:26.791 --> 00:47:33.000
So that would be the first thing is to try to find a resource that gives you, a method of creating a resume quickly.
00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:33.250
Yeah.
00:47:33.250 --> 00:47:36.875
And I'll put all this in the show notes so people don't have to go and, like, pause and run.
00:47:36.875 --> 00:47:38.958
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:47:38.958 --> 00:47:39.958
So that's the first thing.
00:47:39.958 --> 00:47:52.083
The second thing is look at a job description, read the job description, understand what it is that they're looking for, and then try your best to demonstrate that you have that experience or that you can solve that problem in your resume.
00:47:52.291 --> 00:47:57.750
And if you don't know how to do it, those tools Careerflow.AI, Teal HQ, they can walk you through it.
00:47:57.750 --> 00:48:00.250
And I'm I'm actually a partner.
00:47:57.750 --> 00:48:00.250
So full transparency.
00:48:00.250 --> 00:48:03.208
I'm a partner with Careerflow, but I'm not a partner with Teal HQ.
00:48:03.208 --> 00:48:05.458
But I do like the experience of of Teal.
00:48:05.458 --> 00:48:12.541
So that's that's the first and second and then the third thing would be do your research on the company, like go beyond the resume.
00:48:12.541 --> 00:48:17.375
I'm sorry, go beyond, go beyond their website, look for interviews, look for news articles.
00:48:17.375 --> 00:48:22.291
If it's a publicly traded company, look at their financial records like they're available.
00:48:22.291 --> 00:48:25.625
They have to be reported according to the Security and Exchange Commission.
00:48:25.625 --> 00:48:28.666
So there's tons of great information out there to mine.
00:48:28.666 --> 00:48:36.625
I wouldn't trust AI at the moment, I wouldn't go to like ChatGPT or Gemini and say, give me everything you know about this company.
00:48:36.791 --> 00:48:38.583
I'd try to go to the source, right?
00:48:38.583 --> 00:48:40.666
I don't those things can hallucinate.
00:48:40.666 --> 00:48:43.750
I don't want to say something that's wrong in the interview.
00:48:43.750 --> 00:48:46.500
And and it seems like I didn't do my research properly.
00:48:46.500 --> 00:48:48.125
So those are the three main things.
00:48:48.125 --> 00:48:51.125
Okay, one other question I was curious about.
00:48:51.125 --> 00:48:58.291
I've heard you talk about or I've seen your writing about having mentored people and things like that, and people often talking about wanting mentors.
00:48:58.291 --> 00:49:00.833
In your experience, how does that stuff come about?
00:49:00.833 --> 00:49:03.875
Did someone come up to you and say, hey, Jonathan, you know, I'm looking for a mentor.
00:49:03.875 --> 00:49:05.125
You seem like a good candidate.
00:49:05.125 --> 00:49:07.833
Or, you know, how does how does that come about?
00:49:07.833 --> 00:49:14.333
I was sort of always been skeptical about the someone reaching out and saying that because you're like, I don't know who you are.
00:49:15.458 --> 00:49:17.041
I don't know how motivated you are.
00:49:17.041 --> 00:49:19.833
I don't know what really you're asking for.
00:49:19.833 --> 00:49:22.291
I'm asking for, like, this open ended thing, you know?
00:49:22.291 --> 00:49:24.166
How does that come about in your experience?
00:49:24.166 --> 00:49:29.208
So I've actually had a couple of experiences with mentors, like three unique experiences that I can talk about.
00:49:29.333 --> 00:49:34.291
The first one is very early on my first job, I got a mentor assigned to me.
00:49:34.416 --> 00:49:40.708
So the place that I was working at, which is the patent office, when they bring you on, they give you a trainer, a supervisor and a mentor.
00:49:40.916 --> 00:49:45.541
They want you to be successful, especially at the time when I joined, they were doing like a big hiring spree.
00:49:45.541 --> 00:49:50.000
They wanted to bring on like a thousand, patent examiners every year to deal with the backlog.
00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:51.625
They had, like a 2 or 3 year backlog.
00:49:51.625 --> 00:49:54.416
I like that experience to some degree.
00:49:54.416 --> 00:49:58.458
The mentor was good, but I don't think that he was, like, emotionally invested in me.
00:49:58.625 --> 00:50:00.166
You know, it's an assignment, right?
00:50:00.166 --> 00:50:04.750
Like you're typically not emotionally invested to your assignments or in your assignments.
00:50:04.750 --> 00:50:05.708
So that was okay.
00:50:05.708 --> 00:50:10.666
I did have one person, come up to me and say, I want to be your mentor.
00:50:10.666 --> 00:50:15.416
I'd love to mentor, you know, someone who's junior, and, he never followed through with that.
00:50:15.416 --> 00:50:20.625
I, we met once for coffee at a Starbucks here in, in, in Silver Spring, Maryland.
00:50:21.041 --> 00:50:23.916
And that was the only time we ever had a conversation.
00:50:23.916 --> 00:50:25.541
I never saw him again.
00:50:25.541 --> 00:50:26.250
And then.
00:50:26.250 --> 00:50:28.833
So, I don't know, maybe I turned him off in some way.
00:50:28.833 --> 00:50:37.625
And then, and then the other mentors that I have have been very organic, like one of my managers from my second company, me and him actually had a conflict.
00:50:37.791 --> 00:50:38.916
We weren't getting along.
00:50:38.916 --> 00:50:41.791
And one day he called me out for being late in a meeting.
00:50:41.791 --> 00:50:45.125
And, and I was sick that day, and I just, I just wasn't in the mood.
00:50:45.125 --> 00:50:48.166
And I told them, hey, man, why are you always calling me out in front of everybody?
00:50:48.166 --> 00:50:49.708
And I said this, like, in front of, like, five people.
00:50:49.708 --> 00:50:51.125
And he said, I'm not calling you out.
00:50:51.125 --> 00:50:54.208
It's just you're you're coming late and you know, and all this stuff.
00:50:54.208 --> 00:50:55.083
And I was mad.
00:50:55.083 --> 00:51:02.833
And then later that evening at like 6 p.m., he calls me and, and he says, hey, I just want to let you know, I, I didn't mean to call you out in front of everybody.
00:51:02.833 --> 00:51:04.791
I'm very sorry about that, he said.
00:51:04.791 --> 00:51:06.625
I just I want you to keep your job.
00:51:06.625 --> 00:51:10.500
It was like, I remember as like 6 or 7 p.m., I had just I was like washing the dishes.
00:51:10.500 --> 00:51:16.625
And he he called me and said that to me and I like gained this like immediate like respect for him and just.
00:51:16.666 --> 00:51:20.166
And I was like, yeah, I this thing like I can't let him down.
00:51:20.166 --> 00:51:27.791
Like I had this feeling, you know and and man like he was, he was and is one of the best mentors I've ever had.
00:51:27.791 --> 00:51:31.000
And we're still friends to this day, almost 20 years later.
00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:33.625
And anytime I have a problem, I go to him.
00:51:33.625 --> 00:51:35.791
I'm like, hey, I'm stuck on this. Like, what do you think?
00:51:35.791 --> 00:51:36.750
What's your advice?
00:51:36.750 --> 00:51:39.041
And he's always sort of been my mentor.
00:51:39.041 --> 00:51:44.166
I've had a couple of other people like that, but no one has stuck around like him, and it just happened organically.
00:51:44.208 --> 00:51:45.875
Like we just sort of fell into that.
00:51:45.875 --> 00:51:50.458
So I think if you want to be a little more intentional about it, seek the people that you want to be mentored by.
00:51:50.458 --> 00:51:53.875
But yeah, my, my, my best mentor was all organic.
00:51:53.875 --> 00:51:56.875
So I don't have like a great way of, of helping people find one.
00:51:57.000 --> 00:51:59.791
Well, I think part of it is it's got to be organic, right?
00:51:59.791 --> 00:52:04.875
Because, both sides have to be like, have to be interested in it.
00:52:04.875 --> 00:52:13.125
And, you know, one of the things I always suggested to people is the way to get people interested in you is to do interesting things.
00:52:13.708 --> 00:52:17.666
And if you're doing interesting things, people will want to mentor you.
00:52:17.666 --> 00:52:19.625
People will want to help you.
00:52:17.666 --> 00:52:19.625
Yeah, absolutely.
00:52:19.625 --> 00:52:22.083
Those are great, a great quote that's flowing around social.
00:52:22.083 --> 00:52:23.958
It's, “To be interesting.
00:52:23.958 --> 00:52:26.166
You have to be interested.” Yeah. Right.
00:52:26.166 --> 00:52:28.291
And kind of goes both ways. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
00:52:28.291 --> 00:52:29.250
So ask questions.
00:52:29.250 --> 00:52:34.333
I think I can't stress this enough, especially in interviews like ask questions, don't ever say no.
00:52:34.333 --> 00:52:36.208
I don't have questions.
00:52:34.333 --> 00:52:36.208
Always ask something.
00:52:36.208 --> 00:52:37.625
My god. Yeah, always.
00:52:37.625 --> 00:52:41.333
It's almost a dealbreaker in interviews where or I'll be interviewing someone.
00:52:41.333 --> 00:52:44.208
I'll, you know, you get to the latter part and you say you have any questions for me?
00:52:44.208 --> 00:52:45.625
And they're like, no, I'm pretty good.
00:52:45.625 --> 00:52:50.250
And I'm like, either you're not at all interested or, you know, you haven't.
00:52:50.250 --> 00:52:52.250
And that this is this is not like it's a secret.
00:52:52.250 --> 00:52:57.375
It's not like you and I are just, like, revealing something to the world that nobody knew about before.
00:52:57.750 --> 00:53:08.041
Like this should be if you're at the stage, professionally, either even as a student coming out or someone further on interviewing, you don't know that you should have some questions.
00:53:08.041 --> 00:53:09.833
Then you probably, you know, it's probably been the case.
00:53:09.833 --> 00:53:10.875
You haven't really done your homework.
00:53:10.875 --> 00:53:11.458
That's right.
00:53:11.458 --> 00:53:15.458
And and one of the, the, the questions I've always had in my mind is why?
00:53:15.500 --> 00:53:18.416
Like, why is it that people care about questions so much.
00:53:18.416 --> 00:53:34.125
And I spoke to a recruiter about it once and that person said the reason why why they care so much about questions, follow ups and things like that is because they don't know if you're still interested in the position after they've interviewed you.
00:53:34.125 --> 00:53:40.375
So like if you went into Apple and they interviewed you, they cannot assume that just because it's Apple, like you want to work there.
00:53:41.166 --> 00:53:47.958
In fact, like places like that are always they do the same thing they do recruiting and they try to draw people in and all that stuff.
00:53:47.958 --> 00:53:49.583
It just at a different scale.
00:53:49.583 --> 00:53:50.291
Yeah.
00:53:50.291 --> 00:53:56.166
So even more importantly, to some degree, like you're going to be spending a lot of time in this place. Exactly.
00:53:56.166 --> 00:54:01.541
I mean, it's in your own self-interest to like, kind of at least get a sense of what the place is like.
00:54:01.875 --> 00:54:02.416
Exactly.
00:54:02.416 --> 00:54:09.541
So after they've given you the spiel about like, what's it like to work there and the project and everything, they might have scared you off.
00:54:09.625 --> 00:54:14.791
So, you know, if you're not asking questions to them, it seems like you're not interested in the position anymore.
00:54:14.791 --> 00:54:17.375
Yeah. If you're not following up, you've lost interest.
00:54:17.375 --> 00:54:19.916
You don't want them to have that impression. Totally.
00:54:19.916 --> 00:54:20.041
Yeah.
00:54:20.041 --> 00:54:30.500
It's also a little bit like so I find one of the interesting things about this whole process is questions that as an interviewee, you might feel like, why are they even asking me this sort of dumb question?
00:54:30.500 --> 00:54:32.291
But there's actually really good reasons.
00:54:32.291 --> 00:54:35.083
Like one of the ones is, you know what?
00:54:32.291 --> 00:54:35.083
You know, why do you want to work here?
00:54:35.083 --> 00:54:39.458
Like, yes, you're looking for a job like we all, you know, we all need to work right?
00:54:39.458 --> 00:54:43.000
But if the answer is, well, I'm looking for somewhere to exchange my time for money.
00:54:44.250 --> 00:54:46.083
So they're like, well, gee, thanks.
00:54:46.083 --> 00:54:48.500
I'm really flattered to hear that.
00:54:48.500 --> 00:54:51.166
But the other reason is there's always a risk to hire.
00:54:51.166 --> 00:54:52.666
It's kind of what we talked about earlier.
00:54:52.666 --> 00:54:58.666
If you hire someone who's a bad hire and they're not, they get into the job and they're like, oh my God, this is not what I thought.
00:54:58.666 --> 00:54:59.458
This is not the company.
00:54:59.458 --> 00:55:00.916
I thought, this is not the work.
00:55:00.916 --> 00:55:02.541
Well, that's fine for everybody.
00:55:02.541 --> 00:55:06.666
And so if you have an answer to to, why do you want to work there?
00:55:06.666 --> 00:55:11.708
It's suggestive at least that you have you have some understanding of what you're getting into.
00:55:11.708 --> 00:55:14.625
And then on the, you know, the list of potential risks.
00:55:14.625 --> 00:55:18.916
I mean, no one makes a list, but if if there were a list of potential risks to hiring that person.
00:55:19.083 --> 00:55:20.250
Okay, I've checked that one off.
00:55:20.250 --> 00:55:21.958
That one's probably less of a worry.
00:55:21.958 --> 00:55:22.125
Yeah.
00:55:22.125 --> 00:55:26.291
Like one question that that trips people up is like, tell me about a time you failed, right.
00:55:26.291 --> 00:55:32.291
And so job seekers will play it safe and they might they might tell you about a time that they had they made a mistake. Right.
00:55:32.291 --> 00:55:33.291
Like they didn't really fail.
00:55:33.291 --> 00:55:36.916
But you know, it didn't go well or perfectly or whatever.
00:55:36.916 --> 00:55:44.166
But but what the interviewers are trying to figure out there is like, how do you handle these difficult situations which are going to come up, right?
00:55:44.500 --> 00:55:51.000
Do you crumble or do you have the resilience or like the wherewithal to to come up with a way of overcoming that challenge?
00:55:51.166 --> 00:55:53.375
So yeah, every question might seem silly.
00:55:53.375 --> 00:55:56.375
I mean, there are some silly questions like what animal would you be, right?
00:55:56.666 --> 00:56:05.750
I don't like those questions, but if they're asking you questions about how you would like to understand, like how you work and how you think and all of that, like they're very valid, right?
00:56:05.750 --> 00:56:07.083
It's funny you mentioned resilience.
00:56:07.083 --> 00:56:26.583
It's such an important one because and it's again, underappreciated, I think because everyone, all of us are going to have stuff that we run into in life, whether it's, you know, health of a parent or, you know, a spouse or a child or a relationship that breaks down, or there are things in life that we run into that just kind of knock us down.
00:56:26.583 --> 00:56:36.875
And I do think that if you can demonstrate that you have the capacity to get back up, that's an important thing for companies to know that, you know, you can you know, that you're going to go through stuff.
00:56:36.875 --> 00:56:37.958
They should support you.
00:56:37.958 --> 00:56:41.125
But at the same time, you have to sort of do your share as well.
00:56:41.250 --> 00:56:43.625
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:56:41.250 --> 00:56:43.625
Especially as a junior.
00:56:43.625 --> 00:56:46.541
So I have two conflicting thoughts like one just hit me in the head, why?
00:56:46.541 --> 00:56:50.125
Why do companies care about your grades, your transcripts.
00:56:50.500 --> 00:56:50.875
Right.
00:56:50.875 --> 00:56:58.083
They want to see like okay, where where did you maybe have an issue like me, for example, I was terrible at mechanical physics.
00:56:58.291 --> 00:57:00.916
It was the first C I ever gotten in like years.
00:57:00.916 --> 00:57:09.125
And, and I was so happy to get that C and I remember I was interviewing with a big company whose name I don't mind mentioning, it's IBM.
00:57:09.125 --> 00:57:13.041
And it was like my it would have been my first job out of college.
00:57:13.375 --> 00:57:22.833
I remember the interviewer sat down with me in a little room, and he looked at my application and he said, I normally don't talk to anybody that has a GPA that's less than 3.5.
00:57:23.250 --> 00:57:26.458
And I had like a 3.2, and I was like, well, then why are you talking to me?
00:57:26.458 --> 00:57:29.500
And he goes, well, you know, because you kind of seem interesting and whatever.
00:57:29.500 --> 00:57:32.125
And it was already like off to a bad start.
00:57:32.125 --> 00:57:39.500
And, and he said, well, you know, tell me about why, why you don't have a 3.5 or above, you know, and I was like, okay, so we're going to focus on this for a while.
00:57:39.500 --> 00:57:43.583
And I remember thinking like, well, I encountered some classes that I like.
00:57:43.583 --> 00:57:50.916
I was just not great at, like I studied as hard as I could and the highest grade that I can get was a C, you know? And, I didn't impress him.
00:57:50.916 --> 00:57:52.416
I didn't get the job or anything.
00:57:52.416 --> 00:57:55.500
And since then, I never applied to an IBM job ever again.
00:57:55.500 --> 00:57:58.500
And I always take an opportunity to say, I don't like IBM.
00:57:58.500 --> 00:58:07.500
Not that other people have had good experiences there, but, but I, you know, when I, when I, when I went through that experience, I was like, why was he harping on that so much?
00:58:07.500 --> 00:58:09.791
Like, why was it such a big deal?
00:58:09.791 --> 00:58:21.750
And it's taken me years to kind of to kind of come to the realization that, like, he was getting really important information like IBM, you know, especially at that point, it was like a leader in computing, you know, there's server hardware and all that stuff.
00:58:21.750 --> 00:58:35.791
And I think the position was for, an embedded engineer for their, for their servers and, and yeah, I mean, I didn't like the experience, but I understand now with experience and time that, that he was getting really good information on whether or not I could be successful there.
00:58:35.791 --> 00:58:37.083
Interesting. Yeah.
00:58:37.083 --> 00:58:38.250
Jonathan, really appreciate your time.
00:58:38.250 --> 00:58:40.708
Let's move to our wrap up questions here.
00:58:40.708 --> 00:58:43.166
We get a lot of job seekers listening who are listening.
00:58:43.166 --> 00:58:52.125
You know, and in our audience what is one thing that they can be doing and they can implement today that will make them more in demand in the job market?
00:58:52.166 --> 00:58:52.583
Yeah.
00:58:52.583 --> 00:59:01.458
So do do the exercise that Ashley was mentioning earlier, like get a bunch of job descriptions and start looking for patterns like what are the key words?
00:59:01.458 --> 00:59:04.333
What are the phrases that they're mentioning in that list?
00:59:04.333 --> 00:59:08.375
You don't have to do a ton, do like five, grab five job descriptions.
00:59:08.375 --> 00:59:12.750
I do everything on paper, so I would print them and then I'd highlight things.
00:59:12.916 --> 00:59:15.583
You can do it with a word cloud.
00:59:12.916 --> 00:59:15.583
You can do it with ChatGPT.
00:59:15.583 --> 00:59:20.458
It doesn't matter. But like what are the keywords and the phrases that that stand out to you the most?
00:59:20.541 --> 00:59:25.666
Make sure that you have that in your resume, and make sure that you have that in your LinkedIn profile.
00:59:25.666 --> 00:59:26.875
That's step number one.
00:59:26.875 --> 00:59:33.958
If you can do that, I guarantee that you're going to get more responses and you're going to get more attention from recruiters that are on the LinkedIn.
00:59:34.250 --> 00:59:36.666
That's a that's something that sounds like some great advice.
00:59:36.666 --> 00:59:50.041
Are are there any you mentioned a couple of resources earlier or the books or podcasts that you'd recommend to people in terms of jobs success in the job search or career advice, jumping out, you know, or starting out out of the jump?
00:59:50.166 --> 00:59:51.708
Really, really strong in your career.
00:59:51.708 --> 00:59:57.208
I can't think of podcasts, but there are a couple people that I would highly recommend following.
00:59:57.708 --> 00:59:58.000
Okay.
00:59:59.166 --> 01:00:05.166
Number one, if you're thinking about going into the FANGS, I definitely recommend Jeff H.
01:00:05.208 --> 01:00:07.708
Sipes YouTube channel.
01:00:07.708 --> 01:00:09.958
Okay. He used to be at Google.
01:00:09.958 --> 01:00:18.625
He puts out all sorts of content about behavioral interviews, salary negotiation, all sorts of stuff on LinkedIn.
01:00:18.625 --> 01:00:22.583
I would recommend following people like Austin Belcak, Adam Broda.
01:00:22.583 --> 01:00:25.708
Another person I really like is, Reno Perry.
01:00:25.708 --> 01:00:28.166
Those guys, they put out lots of great content.
01:00:28.166 --> 01:00:32.375
And, oh, another person that I would recommend on YouTube would be, Madeline Mann.
01:00:32.375 --> 01:00:33.583
She puts out a lot of good stuff.
01:00:33.583 --> 01:00:38.375
She talks about, like, turning job seekers into job shoppers, which I think is a clever play on words.
01:00:38.375 --> 01:00:43.916
There is a book that I'm currently reading that I like is called What Color Is Your Parachute?
01:00:43.916 --> 01:00:45.458
That's considered a classic.
01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:53.041
That's very good if you're in the coding space, if you're trying to get into software Cracking the Coding Interview is a good one.
01:00:53.041 --> 01:00:54.958
Cracking the PM Interview is another one.
01:00:54.958 --> 01:01:06.375
If you're thinking of going into management and there's a lot of great stuff out there, it's hard to sort of synthesize everything, you know, and, and a lot of these things come out and almost when they hit the market, they're already sort of like obsolete.
01:01:06.541 --> 01:01:08.750
So take it for what it's worth, you know?
01:01:08.750 --> 01:01:11.666
But none of it matters if you don't put it into practice.
01:01:11.666 --> 01:01:12.916
So, so. Right.
01:01:12.916 --> 01:01:18.000
You know, start with one resource, put whatever they're saying into practice, test it out for a couple weeks.
01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:20.666
And you know, if it doesn't work, try something else. Yeah.
01:01:20.666 --> 01:01:22.166
Jonathan, this has been, great.
01:01:22.166 --> 01:01:24.333
There's been so much insight you've you've shared with the audience.
01:01:24.333 --> 01:01:26.125
I really appreciate it.
01:01:24.333 --> 01:01:26.125
Really appreciate the time.
01:01:26.125 --> 01:01:27.208
My pleasure. Man, this is fun.
01:01:27.208 --> 01:01:29.583
And how would, people get in touch with you?
01:01:29.583 --> 01:01:34.458
I want to make sure people know how to to get in touch with you and check out what you, what you're writing, what you're thinking.
01:01:34.458 --> 01:01:37.291
I'm on a couple social media sites.
01:01:34.458 --> 01:01:37.291
I'm on LinkedIn.
01:01:37.291 --> 01:01:41.375
My LinkedIn profile is LinkedIn slash in slash.
01:01:41.375 --> 01:01:46.875
Jonathan Corrales.
01:01:46.875 --> 01:01:48.541
Okay. That's the best way to get in contact with me.
01:01:48.541 --> 01:01:51.375
I'm also on Twitter and Threads.
01:01:51.375 --> 01:01:54.125
My handle is @readyinterviews.
01:01:54.125 --> 01:01:56.375
I just got those up, so I'm filling it up with content now.
01:01:56.375 --> 01:01:57.666
I also have an Instagram page.
01:01:57.666 --> 01:02:00.041
It's completely empty so I don't recommend going there.
01:02:00.041 --> 01:02:03.708
And then you can check out my website www.readyaiminterview.com.
01:02:03.708 --> 01:02:04.375
Right on.
01:02:04.375 --> 01:02:09.625
And we'll put all that in the show notes so people can make I can have a good and easy access to that, but that was great.
01:02:09.625 --> 01:02:11.166
Jonathan, really appreciate the time.
01:02:11.166 --> 01:02:13.833
Thanks so much for being on here and look forward to staying in touch.
01:02:13.833 --> 01:02:15.166
Yeah. My pleasure. Thank you very much.