S01-E22-Crossing Systems, Building Culture: Jason Oliver on Leading Higher Ed IT in Canada

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Welcome back to Bytes of Experience. Today, we're talking about transitions,
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surprises, and leadership in higher ed IT.
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Our guest is Jason Oliver, CIO
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at Western University, who recently moved from the UK system to Canada.
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We'll explore what it's like to lead in a new country, how priorities shift,
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and what lessons travel across borders. So welcome, Jason.
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Can you give us a brief overview of your journey, your education, and your roles?
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Hi, Bo. Hi, Dana, thanks for having me this morning. So yes, I'm Jason Oliver.
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I've been at Western since November 2024, so just over a year now.
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Prior to that, I was at University of Sussex in the UK for seven years.
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And before that, I was CIO or a similar role at the Science Museum Group,
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the Royal Opera House, some non-departmental public bodies and some central
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government departments.
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So it's been an interesting journey for me, and I'm excited to be here in a
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new country and a new continent.
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Thanks for sharing that, Jason. There's some things there that I didn't know,
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and we're going to have to maybe go for a beer and have a chat about some of those things.
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It sounds fascinating, the variety of places you've been.
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So having worked in the UK system and now being in Canada, you know,
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what stands out most in differences between the two.
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The thing that stands out most for me after my first year is not so much the
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differences, it's the similarities.
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We're dealing with the same challenges here at Western as I was dealing with at Sussex.
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Challenges around legacy technology, around digital skills gaps,
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around uncertainty of the future of our sector.
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And then there's more micro things
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like how do we prioritize more efficiently? How do we govern better?
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How do we make technology genuinely serve the people rather than the other way around?
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It's been really fascinating for me. If I had to pick out one major difference
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between the two systems, though, I would say it's in the UK,
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we have something called clearing.
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And when our students don't get the grades that they're expecting.
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There's a single day where telephones open at eight o'clock in the morning and
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all of the students that haven't got their prospective grades end up ringing
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around trying to find a spot in another university and secure a course.
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And clearly from the technology side and the university side,
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that's a massively stressful, massively busy and important, in fact, critical day.
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As as you will both know as ex-CIOs within
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the sector the the more income we generate the
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more surplus we can generate and the more surplus we generate the
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more we can put back in to improving the
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systems and improving the ways that we operate as an institution so clearing
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was absolutely paramount for us in making sure that we were able to bring in
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all of the students we needed to be able to do the work that we wanted to do
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clearly we we don't have something like that in the Canadian sector.
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So July has been a lot more peaceful for me in Canada than it was in the UK.
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But obviously, there are other things in the Canadian side that,
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you know, we've had to focus on year round, where there might not have been
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quite so much prominence in the UK.
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That's fascinating. I did not know anything about that notion of clearing.
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And, you know, I'm trying to think from a technology standpoint,
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how does that actually work?
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And it must just be massive.
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You know, I don't know how much you've learned about the student side here,
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but, you know, in Ontario, we have the Ontario University's Application Centre.
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And so when students apply for universities coming out of high school,
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they do it through one place. And it's actually run quite efficiently.
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And it allows some interesting opportunities in terms of building consistency
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and aligning with international standards so that students,
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you know, once they finish their undergraduate degree moving on,
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I think it gives them a better opportunity.
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But that clearing sounds absolutely fascinating. it's
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it's one of those days of the year where you
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really see that sense of community as well everybody coming
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together for that common good uh and and not just actually within my team i
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had a telephony team that were absolutely brilliant and we heard this was probably
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three or four years ago now but we heard about a another university's telephony
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system had fouled on the morning of turned.
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Now, clearly, that could be absolutely catastrophic for that university when
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you think about the amount of income that they can lose and the impact of that on the years ahead.
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So my team actually reached out and supported them with getting their systems back up and running.
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So that sense of camaraderie and community is not just specific to the individual institution.
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Much like the Canadian sector, it does go across the sector.
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And that's been another similarity that I've found since getting here that I really, really like.
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Jason, I'm going to diverge a little bit from this and ask you a question relative
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to financial challenges.
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So in the UK, you certainly would have felt the financial challenges of,
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you know, student populations and international student populations and what
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that means in terms of revenue and support services necessary.
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And then here in Canada, we're in probably year two or three of that.
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And there's been some fairly tumultuous activity come out of that.
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So what's your take or what was your take relative to the UK and Canada on that perspective?
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This has been a really interesting one for me because in the UK,
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in my role, I sat as a part of the, what you'd refer to here as the president's group.
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And the UK sector had these challenges probably two years ahead of Canada,
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the challenges that we're facing since I arrived here.
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So sitting at that top table and having those discussions about all the levers
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that can be turned to help us be able to continue to put on the same levels
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of service for our students.
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It was really the conversation and the primary conversation for well over two years.
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We had to pivot in year, a couple of years back, to be able to address a deficit
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budget and then plan for deficit budgets going forward.
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And it's not nice. It puts pressure on everybody in the organisation.
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It's a real stressor, but it's a necessary easel, I think, in the sector right now.
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And clearly, what I've been able to do is bring some of
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that understanding and some of that knowledge
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from those conversations and the actions we took and try
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to feed some of that back into to Western so that we can be as robust and as
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strong as we possibly can be going forward I have to say the the team that have
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been here at Western that have been leading the institution have done a very
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very good job of safeguarding us.
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And, you know, I'm grateful for that.
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But at the same time, you know, there's nowhere to hide from the challenges that we face as a sector.
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And so really, we've all got to stand up and try to contribute and bring the
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ideation forward that will allow us to come out of the other side stronger than
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we was before. But it's not easy.
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Yeah. And there's nobody coming to save us at this point. No, absolutely not.
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And that was a reality, I think, in the UK that it's sort of the understanding
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of that grew over a period of time.
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And I think that a lot of people in the community were always sitting there
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thinking, oh, at some point the government will step in.
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The government are not financially in a position to
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step in there's so many burning bridges and you know i think that's the same
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in other parts of the world and certainly you know there's there's enough challenges
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that we have here in canada albeit i love him being here and i think it's a
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brilliant country certainly better for my kids but i'm sure we'll come on to that,
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but you know these challenges don't go away so really you've just got to stand
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up and be counted and help do everything you can to steer the university through
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these difficult periods.
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Well, let's move on to something else here. Having come from,
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as we said, compared to the UK and Canada, what's been your biggest surprise
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between the two higher ed systems?
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I think that the system here, well, no, let me rephrase that.
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In the UK, we talk a lot about student experience.
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The reality of that is that that
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focuses on in onto key initiatives
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or onto specific areas where we're trying
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to improve things a little a little by little
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here at western i've really really felt a sense of community real engagement
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and actually that student experience is not something we talk about it's something
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that's tangible it's something you feel when you walk in it feels so much more
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like a joined up community here.
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I think it's a powerful reminder that universities are not just places of learning.
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They live in ecosystems and they reflect social societal values.
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Everything that we do, every campaign, every webinar, every post that I put
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out, it's about showing who we are and what we stand for.
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And I really feel blessed that through the conversations I've had with different
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parts of the institution, everybody seems to have that same emphasis, that same feeling.
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It really does feel, and it has been a surprise to me, it really does feel here
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like it is a proper community.
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And, you know, it's really nice when I go and I talk at the,
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you know, peers at Cuccio and places like that, that it's not constrained to just that university.
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There is a sense of community across the nation around higher education.
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And I think that's really, really important, particularly as we move forward
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and would start getting more and more into interdisciplinary research and inter-institutional research.
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I think that sense of community and that sense of we're all working for a common
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purpose is really, really critical.
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Thanks for that, Jason. I'm really glad to hear the comments on the student
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experience because it's certainly
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something that we put a lot of emphasis on and we talk a lot about.
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You know, it's interesting having been at three different institutions,
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the ability to engage with the students, right?
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So if you're really enhancing the student experience, you have to engage with
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them, was quite different at the schools.
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And, you know, Queen's was a really interesting stop for me from the student experience.
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They were fully engaged and they sat on many of the committees at the university
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and they showed up and they contributed.
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And I thought that was really interesting, right? And it was really great.
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I remember whenever they elect the AMS every year, the student government,
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and every February or March or sometime around that.
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Two or three different teams would come to my office and tell me what their
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priorities were. And these were the teams that were running for office,
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like they had the different roles.
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And that sort of engagement was fantastic. And it really raised the profile of technology.
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Let's look a little bit at your reflections over the first year.
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So walk us through your first 365 days at Western and what sort of things did you tackle right away?
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I always said when I got here that the first year would be turned over the rocks.
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Anecdotally, when I joined the Science Museum and when I joined the Royal Opera
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House, at the end of my first week, I sat down with my leadership team and said,
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this is going to be a three-year piece of work for me. Because I could see what needed to be done.
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And it turned out it was three years. There or thereabouts were both cases.
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At the end of my first week at Sussex, I turned around and said,
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this is seven years. There's a lot of work to do here.
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And actually, I ended up being there seven years. When I got here at Western,
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I sat down with my team at the end of that first week and I said,
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this is a 10-year piece of work for me.
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I can see, you know, what needs to be done and where we want to get to.
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And this university has such a huge amount of potential that is really, really exciting for me.
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But I always have, it's been some repeat for me. I've always taken the same approach.
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The first six to 12 months is about turning over the rocks. It's about understanding
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how the institution ticks, it's about building relationships.
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Both within the technology sphere and outside of the technology sphere.
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I actually try to spend a lot more time outside of the technology sphere than
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in it, so that I can understand what it is that the university really,
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really needs and where we can add most value.
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If I put that part of it to the side for a second, when I first got to Western,
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I sat down with every single member of the Western Technology Services team.
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And I have a meeting with every individual, probably 15 to 30 minutes where I ask three questions.
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And the three questions are really designed for me to understand my priorities,
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to really understand from those at the heartbeat, you know, what are the things
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that are really going to help me build a world-class team?
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And the three questions are, how did you get here?
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You know, not how did you drive in this morning, but, you know, what's the background?
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What's led you to be in this role today? Where do you see yourself in five years' time?
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This gives me a really good insight into the ambitions, the drive that different individuals have.
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And the third question is, who do you think are the future superstars?
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Now, when I get seven or eight different people all pointing at one person, that tells me very,
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very early in my role who the people are that I should be keeping an eye on
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and helping and focusing on their development from day one.
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You know, everybody, I want to focus on their development.
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But when you can see that respect coming from the peers, it's really important
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for me to know who those people are early.
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And those three questions give me such a rich amount of data and a rich amount
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of insight into the people that make up the team, where the gaps are, the skills we have,
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how people might be repurposed into different roles.
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I'm a really, really firm believer that the role you're in doesn't necessarily
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equate to the skills that you can offer.
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And so many times off the back of these conversations
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I've been able to find different roles and different career
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directions for people which they're passionate about
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where they've felt constrained by a position that
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they've been in and all of this links to culture the culture of the organization
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one of the first things I did here again was set up a culture committee so that
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we could start putting the things that we were hearing from across the team
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into practice and actually trying to make this more of a place where people
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want to come in every day.
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And then outside of that, process and governance modernization have been two of my priorities.
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And really building up all of the insight for me to be able to produce a technology
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strategy for Western that will take us forward over the coming years.
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So my first year has flown by.
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It really has. I've learned a huge amount and I've developed some really good
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friendships with people across the team.
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But I'm now in a position where I really feel I know what needs to be done.
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And so now I'm transitioning out of discovery and into right let's get rocking
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let's get things going here.
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You use the analogy about flipping over rocks i
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think we probably all do that when we go somewhere new
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and i think if i'd reflect back on my own past you know i'd flip over a rock
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and people oh yeah i knew that was there the surprising thing was when you flipped
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over a rock and people go oh i didn't know that was there so those those surprises
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that show up and then probably get identified are always a little bit eye-opening for your team.
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So I assume you probably had some of those along the way.
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Oh, we definitely have. And I think one of the big differences here at Weston
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from when I was back at Sussex is Sussex was fairly centralized,
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whereas here at Weston is very decentralized.
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And flipping over those rocks has allowed me to see different areas where we've
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been duplicating effort, and where we've got multiple systems running in multiple places,
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but actually the thing that would be most effective is bringing those systems
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together so they're joined up and democratizing the data that sits in those
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systems to inform decision-making as we move forward.
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I've always been a little bit, you know, I'm quite happy to speak and to put my views forward.
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And, you know, most of the time they're quite, they're not controversial,
00:18:08.745 --> 00:18:10.225
but sometimes they will be.
00:18:10.385 --> 00:18:17.285
But I've always found it interesting that we operate like a myriad of different
00:18:17.285 --> 00:18:24.045
businesses, all located in one environment, all pursuing individual goals.
00:18:24.045 --> 00:18:30.685
Where surely the main way forward has to be, where can we find those common joins?
00:18:31.025 --> 00:18:37.065
How can we collaborate more? How can we share more to drive forward the institution as a whole?
00:18:37.405 --> 00:18:41.945
Because surely that's got to be the main benefit as we move forward.
00:18:42.905 --> 00:18:47.985
Yeah. Lots of things have been done. So what have you had to put on the back burner?
00:18:48.285 --> 00:18:53.845
You know, things you'd have loved to do, but either it's time or capacity or maybe skills.
00:18:54.045 --> 00:18:58.045
Haven't allowed to happen good question there's there's
00:18:58.045 --> 00:19:03.605
always a million and one things that needs to be done when when i was at sussex
00:19:03.605 --> 00:19:09.285
actually if i go there first i one of the first things i had to do i started
00:19:09.285 --> 00:19:13.965
a projects office and i went out to the community to try to understand the demand
00:19:13.965 --> 00:19:15.625
what was it that people wanted.
00:19:17.091 --> 00:19:21.171
And we had about 300 million pounds that would be available over the subsequent
00:19:21.171 --> 00:19:23.451
years for us to deliver against those things.
00:19:23.771 --> 00:19:27.811
That engagement did come back with over a billion pounds worth of asks.
00:19:28.311 --> 00:19:31.871
So clearly, prioritization was crucial.
00:19:32.451 --> 00:19:35.691
I've taken that learning into what we're doing here.
00:19:36.411 --> 00:19:41.091
I've tried to take stock of some of our processes. Yes, we've been modernizing
00:19:41.091 --> 00:19:42.531
systems and infrastructure.
00:19:42.531 --> 00:19:48.191
But my priority has really been to try to prioritise capacity building and confidence
00:19:48.191 --> 00:19:50.231
within the tech community,
00:19:50.451 --> 00:19:54.751
not just within my direct team, but in the local teams as well that sit out
00:19:54.751 --> 00:20:00.211
in faculties and try to have a conversation about how we can bring things together.
00:20:00.431 --> 00:20:03.351
When I think about the back burner, there is...
00:20:04.488 --> 00:20:08.008
There's some projects that are just so big, legacy,
00:20:08.368 --> 00:20:13.928
technology, modernization, that type of thing, some of our systems that I've
00:20:13.928 --> 00:20:16.388
sort of taken stock and said,
00:20:16.508 --> 00:20:21.688
these need to sit on the back burner for the moment, because we need to understand
00:20:21.688 --> 00:20:30.008
the 2B state before we start making decisions around what's immediately in front of us.
00:20:31.008 --> 00:20:35.028
ERP, CRM, these type of things, modernizing those space,
00:20:35.228 --> 00:20:41.328
to jump straight into them probably would have been rash because I need to understand
00:20:41.328 --> 00:20:46.588
really the way that the organization works first before starting to bring the
00:20:46.588 --> 00:20:49.948
people together to make the types of decisions that need to be made.
00:20:50.308 --> 00:20:54.248
What I have been able to do whilst putting some of these things on the back
00:20:54.248 --> 00:20:56.088
burner is create a backlog,
00:20:56.408 --> 00:20:59.508
create an understanding of the things that we do need to do,
00:20:59.768 --> 00:21:03.168
where we're going to have the most strategic benefit going forward,
00:21:03.168 --> 00:21:08.668
and start to layer those in a prioritized order and build those in the strategy
00:21:08.668 --> 00:21:10.208
that we'll have going forward.
00:21:11.488 --> 00:21:16.968
So, yeah, I can't give you one single thing that I've put on the back burner because there's loads.
00:21:17.568 --> 00:21:23.268
What I can say is the two areas where I've really felt that we shouldn't be
00:21:23.268 --> 00:21:26.648
putting things on the back burner is prioritizing our support for research.
00:21:27.588 --> 00:21:31.768
And the building of strategic partnerships with the private sector.
00:21:31.988 --> 00:21:38.588
I think both of those are areas where they can help us turn the dial in an environment
00:21:38.588 --> 00:21:43.808
where increasing student numbers or impacting on international students may
00:21:43.808 --> 00:21:46.028
not be as readily available right now.
00:21:47.068 --> 00:21:51.828
Yeah, I think, you know, that partnership with research, I think that's a great position to take.
00:21:52.028 --> 00:21:56.728
And it's one that, you know, I don't think all the CIOs across the country I've
00:21:56.728 --> 00:22:01.528
really dug into enough, and it probably depends on the institution that you come from.
00:22:01.668 --> 00:22:06.928
But, you know, Western being a U15, it's quite logical that you should be going there.
00:22:07.388 --> 00:22:11.588
You know, lots of great reflections over the first year. The decentralization,
00:22:11.768 --> 00:22:14.348
that's something we've talked a lot about.
00:22:14.528 --> 00:22:18.588
You know, we talked to Martin Bernier about what he's done with the med school,
00:22:18.728 --> 00:22:24.068
which is really interesting, and trying to get more alignment there and driving
00:22:24.068 --> 00:22:28.708
those efficiencies and looking at things collectively that I think you alluded to.
00:22:28.928 --> 00:22:32.648
I mean, we also talked to Brian Stewart and Mark Humphreys about what happened
00:22:32.648 --> 00:22:35.228
at the University of Alberta, which was really interesting.
00:22:35.468 --> 00:22:40.488
And, you know, some of that touches on uniform, which I know a lot of schools in the UK have used.
00:22:40.948 --> 00:22:44.148
We're still really interested to hear what's happening at the University of
00:22:44.148 --> 00:22:47.908
Victoria and also just down the street from you at Waterloo,
00:22:48.388 --> 00:22:52.228
because there's some things in the works and hopefully we'll have some guests
00:22:52.228 --> 00:22:53.648
on shortly to talk about that.
00:22:54.088 --> 00:22:56.748
But let's talk a little bit more about leadership and collaboration.
00:22:56.748 --> 00:22:58.808
And I think we've got a couple of questions here.
00:22:59.248 --> 00:23:04.828
So Western has a unique role, chief AI officer, a unique role in Canada anyways,
00:23:05.168 --> 00:23:09.608
have an amazing person in that role. I'm perfectly suited for it, Mark Daly.
00:23:09.988 --> 00:23:14.628
So what's it like to work alongside that role and how does it shape your priorities?
00:23:15.388 --> 00:23:21.208
Mark is, Mark's amazing. And I don't mean that in just the fact that he's got
00:23:21.208 --> 00:23:23.528
such extensive knowledge of AI.
00:23:23.888 --> 00:23:27.588
I mean, he's an amazing human. He's brilliant to work with.
00:23:28.578 --> 00:23:32.698
I've been really, really fortunate. In fact, when I was interviewed for this role.
00:23:33.778 --> 00:23:40.038
I referred to Triumvirate, myself, the chief AI officer and the chief data officer,
00:23:40.038 --> 00:23:44.898
and how exciting it was to be coming to a forward-thinking organisation that
00:23:44.898 --> 00:23:46.498
has structured those three roles.
00:23:46.998 --> 00:23:51.498
Because in the UK, that was just me. You know, I had to do all three of those jobs.
00:23:51.638 --> 00:23:55.278
And it's really, really difficult, you know, trying to balance everything.
00:23:56.118 --> 00:24:00.498
There's not enough hours in the week already. But when you're trying to do all
00:24:00.498 --> 00:24:04.478
three of those jobs and reflect through the different lenses,
00:24:04.478 --> 00:24:09.058
the needs of those roles, it puts a lot of pressure on you.
00:24:09.498 --> 00:24:14.198
So coming into an environment where Mark was here and we've also got Colin as
00:24:14.198 --> 00:24:19.178
our chief data officer is really, really allowed me to focus on the things that
00:24:19.178 --> 00:24:20.958
need to be done around the technology.
00:24:20.958 --> 00:24:27.518
But to partner with Mark and with Colin around the things that they need and
00:24:27.518 --> 00:24:30.058
how I can support those needs.
00:24:30.658 --> 00:24:38.998
Mark also, obviously, he sat in this chair as not the CTO, but the corresponding
00:24:38.998 --> 00:24:40.738
role a couple of years back.
00:24:40.958 --> 00:24:46.278
So it's really nice being able to talk to somebody on the leadership table who
00:24:46.278 --> 00:24:52.838
gets my job and gets my challenge and has done it and Mark also comes from an
00:24:52.838 --> 00:24:57.698
academic background where clearly he's bringing that knowledge around the academic
00:24:57.698 --> 00:24:59.458
community and the relationships with.
00:25:00.077 --> 00:25:04.477
Community as well. And that's been really, really critical of creating the joins
00:25:04.477 --> 00:25:08.657
and opening up the discussion points where when I need to talk to people.
00:25:09.217 --> 00:25:13.637
Mark's been a good friend to me since I got here. But more importantly than
00:25:13.637 --> 00:25:16.457
that, I think that we've got a really,
00:25:16.697 --> 00:25:22.537
really the potential for a high functioning and high performing leadership around
00:25:22.537 --> 00:25:24.797
all of the facets of technology,
00:25:25.257 --> 00:25:28.317
in a way that is just so difficult to do when it's just you.
00:25:28.977 --> 00:25:33.237
Yeah, I think there'd be many in the community that would echo your comments about Mark,
00:25:33.357 --> 00:25:40.857
not only how intelligent he is, but what a really genuine human he is and how
00:25:40.857 --> 00:25:44.997
he likes to engage with people, irrespective of sectors and things of that nature.
00:25:45.517 --> 00:25:47.717
We'll have to consider trying to get him on as a guest.
00:25:48.437 --> 00:25:52.457
He'd be really good on here, but his advice on the non-technical,
00:25:52.457 --> 00:25:57.417
how to navigate Western and how to navigate Canada has been invaluable.
00:25:57.797 --> 00:26:00.737
So I'll take this opportunity to say a massive thank you to you. Great.
00:26:01.617 --> 00:26:06.017
You talked earlier about, you know, meeting with your team and discussing,
00:26:06.277 --> 00:26:08.797
you know, maybe the role they're in and the role they might move to.
00:26:09.657 --> 00:26:14.257
So from that, you know, you've emphasized professional development for your team.
00:26:14.357 --> 00:26:20.737
So like what concrete steps are you taking to build up that capacity and build out new skills?
00:26:22.777 --> 00:26:25.857
Well, again, multifaceted answer.
00:26:26.397 --> 00:26:32.777
AI is obviously impacting on all of the institutions in Canada, but society as a whole.
00:26:33.517 --> 00:26:37.197
So I've created an Artificial Intelligence Resource Centre.
00:26:37.597 --> 00:26:43.117
That's mirrored on something that we've had in place for about 20 years called
00:26:43.117 --> 00:26:48.097
an ITRC, which is the Instructional Technology Resource Centre.
00:26:48.097 --> 00:26:55.377
And what we do there is we employ student staff members to work with faculty
00:26:55.377 --> 00:27:01.297
in the creation of content to support the outputs for the curriculum, the taught materials.
00:27:02.445 --> 00:27:07.605
So we've mirrored the AIRC on that by developing opportunities for people to
00:27:07.605 --> 00:27:10.565
step into some of the leadership roles in that space.
00:27:10.765 --> 00:27:16.305
But at the same time, also, we're about to start recruiting for student staff
00:27:16.305 --> 00:27:23.405
members in that space, which will allow us to not only improve our employability outcomes,
00:27:23.625 --> 00:27:29.065
because obviously this is fantastic on the resume of those people as they go forward.
00:27:29.065 --> 00:27:34.265
But it's creating a conveyor belt of talent to bring into the team as well once
00:27:34.265 --> 00:27:35.765
they've fully graduated and.
00:27:36.546 --> 00:27:44.446
Looking at the internal team, we've really turned up the dial this year around
00:27:44.446 --> 00:27:47.886
our performance development reviews and plans.
00:27:48.066 --> 00:27:53.406
And we've captured all of the professional development needs that were identified through that.
00:27:53.406 --> 00:28:00.606
And we're trying to build a concrete plan that will allow us to get the maximum amount of people,
00:28:00.746 --> 00:28:05.446
the development opportunities that are linked to the strategic direction that
00:28:05.446 --> 00:28:09.526
we're taking over the course of the next two or three years so that we're ready
00:28:09.526 --> 00:28:12.826
as these different initiatives come forward.
00:28:12.826 --> 00:28:15.886
There's something that i haven't started in any
00:28:15.886 --> 00:28:18.546
major depth yet but here but i
00:28:18.546 --> 00:28:21.886
did at sussex which was to put
00:28:21.886 --> 00:28:26.086
on a year-long program called modern mindset which
00:28:26.086 --> 00:28:33.266
was really focused on change management and making people change change confident
00:28:33.266 --> 00:28:38.326
and change ready and i think that's one of the biggest things that i have seen
00:28:38.326 --> 00:28:43.626
since i got here that the emphasis on change management is as a higher position,
00:28:43.846 --> 00:28:48.026
that people are starting to talk about change management, but I'm not really
00:28:48.026 --> 00:28:50.906
seeing practitioners within the institution.
00:28:51.226 --> 00:28:54.126
The same can be said for business analysts.
00:28:54.626 --> 00:28:59.206
Business analysts for me are absolutely fundamental to my needs,
00:28:59.466 --> 00:29:01.486
yet we don't have a BA practice.
00:29:01.486 --> 00:29:04.826
We've got a very, very small amount of
00:29:04.826 --> 00:29:07.966
people who have some business analysis background
00:29:07.966 --> 00:29:15.966
so it's those sorts of skills where i've been trying to look at how do we structure
00:29:15.966 --> 00:29:21.266
how do we build the skills in how do we prepare people with the right mindsets
00:29:21.266 --> 00:29:26.906
for the future that we're going to be embarking on yeah does that answer the question.
00:29:28.786 --> 00:29:34.526
Yeah, no, I think that's great and love, you know, you're talking about,
00:29:34.606 --> 00:29:37.326
you know, the development of your staff, right?
00:29:37.446 --> 00:29:40.406
So performance development rather than performance review.
00:29:40.626 --> 00:29:44.626
And I think that's important. I think you're hitting on a couple of really big
00:29:44.626 --> 00:29:47.926
areas, right? Change management and business analysts.
00:29:48.086 --> 00:29:51.906
And it's part of the maturing piece of these organizations, right,
00:29:51.926 --> 00:29:56.286
that have grown organically. And it's more about moving to that organization
00:29:56.286 --> 00:30:01.106
where you're the bridge between the technology and the end users.
00:30:01.346 --> 00:30:06.526
And I think we've heard that from a couple other people. So I think that's great.
00:30:07.106 --> 00:30:11.666
The interesting thing for me on this as well is the change management is probably
00:30:11.666 --> 00:30:16.326
even more prominent requirement outside of the technology teams.
00:30:16.926 --> 00:30:23.106
It's the whole, the program I put in at Sussex was designed to be a whole institution program.
00:30:23.306 --> 00:30:28.686
And it wasn't focused around technology. It really was around change and preparing
00:30:28.686 --> 00:30:29.906
people for uncertainty.
00:30:30.666 --> 00:30:35.726
When I arrive at new organizations, the first thing that I say to my direct
00:30:35.726 --> 00:30:39.006
reports is, the only constant you'll get from me is change.
00:30:39.486 --> 00:30:46.086
And I think that anyone who's a CIO, that is what we do. Every day we're dealing with change.
00:30:46.326 --> 00:30:50.706
So it's really critical, given that we probably are dealing with it more than
00:30:50.706 --> 00:30:55.186
anybody else in the institution, that we're the ones that are trying to impart
00:30:55.186 --> 00:30:59.506
some of that advice and some of that insight back to the wider community to
00:30:59.506 --> 00:31:01.246
help support them through changes.
00:31:01.506 --> 00:31:07.186
We know that we're not the quickest to change as a sector.
00:31:07.982 --> 00:31:13.422
So anything we can do that helps prepare people and make people feel a bit more
00:31:13.422 --> 00:31:15.902
comfortable around it has to be a positive.
00:31:16.422 --> 00:31:21.142
Yeah, and I love that notion of the IT unit or the CIO taking a leadership role
00:31:21.142 --> 00:31:25.582
on this across campus, because I think you need to, and I can think back to
00:31:25.582 --> 00:31:29.202
many examples where things were lacking at the institution.
00:31:29.882 --> 00:31:33.742
IT needed it, but so did everybody else, but nobody was pushing it.
00:31:34.062 --> 00:31:38.422
So, you know, IT would move forward and bring people along. And so I think that's
00:31:38.422 --> 00:31:41.802
a great, great sort of initiative to work on.
00:31:42.902 --> 00:31:50.002
I've always struggled a little bit when the CIO isn't in that president's group.
00:31:50.302 --> 00:31:54.942
And the reason that I struggle is I think it's exactly that type of insight
00:31:54.942 --> 00:32:01.082
and that type of mentality that brings into that group in a way that is not
00:32:01.082 --> 00:32:07.182
necessarily seen through other areas of leadership within the institution.
00:32:08.042 --> 00:32:12.762
We are change ready. We have to be. It's the job that we do day to day.
00:32:13.542 --> 00:32:20.282
And so we're at such an interesting time at the moment as a sector that introducing
00:32:20.282 --> 00:32:24.102
that knowledge and that skill and that experience into the president's group
00:32:24.102 --> 00:32:27.482
has to be a priority for forward thinking institutions.
00:32:28.662 --> 00:32:32.662
Awesome. I think that reinforces some of the things we've heard and we'll keep pushing that one.
00:32:33.282 --> 00:32:37.922
And let's look at sector engagement. And I know we chatted sort of as you were
00:32:37.922 --> 00:32:39.562
going through the process of taking this role.
00:32:39.742 --> 00:32:42.902
And I talked to you a little bit about the community that exists in Canada.
00:32:43.042 --> 00:32:43.982
And you've alluded to it now.
00:32:44.182 --> 00:32:48.882
So, you know, Cuchio is rather unique in many respects. You know,
00:32:48.942 --> 00:32:50.322
it's the Canadian CIO network.
00:32:50.722 --> 00:32:55.482
And there's lots of collaboration. But has that helped you settle in and connect with your peers?
00:32:56.362 --> 00:32:59.542
Oh, absolutely. I mean, to be fair, Cuchio helped me get the job.
00:33:01.168 --> 00:33:04.708
As you mentioned, Bo, you and I did have a conversation.
00:33:04.948 --> 00:33:11.008
I also spoke to Mathieu at Laval. I spoke to Lindsay at Cuccio all before I
00:33:11.008 --> 00:33:18.208
had my interview because I was a part of the corresponding group in the UK known as UCISA.
00:33:18.588 --> 00:33:25.928
And at the last UCISA annual conference that I went to, before I started engaging
00:33:25.928 --> 00:33:31.988
with Western, there was a delegate that came over from Canada to see how we did things.
00:33:32.228 --> 00:33:35.328
I don't know if you came, but I think you may have even come over at the time.
00:33:35.708 --> 00:33:39.028
No, you didn't. Well, Matty, I did. A few people did.
00:33:39.728 --> 00:33:48.548
And so being able to talk to some of the members of Cuccio ahead of the interview,
00:33:49.388 --> 00:33:56.428
really, it just demonstrated for me how collegiate, how supportive Cuccio was
00:33:56.428 --> 00:34:01.488
going to be once I got here, and no matter how much I had to learn at Western,
00:34:02.048 --> 00:34:06.748
there was already a peer group that I could lean on to ask questions and to
00:34:06.748 --> 00:34:09.308
gain insight that would help me in the journey.
00:34:09.648 --> 00:34:15.668
Now, as I mentioned earlier on, actually, the similarities are much more aligned than the differences.
00:34:16.769 --> 00:34:20.869
And the same can be said for Yusai Zou and Cuchio. Cuchio has been brilliant.
00:34:21.029 --> 00:34:29.249
It's a safe space where I can talk to peers in a way that I feel I can trust the people in there.
00:34:31.049 --> 00:34:36.009
We are inherently being driven towards being more competitive as a sector.
00:34:36.329 --> 00:34:42.829
But that doesn't really come through when you're talking with your peers at the Cuchio level.
00:34:43.489 --> 00:34:46.769
Everybody's there to help each other. everybody's willing
00:34:46.769 --> 00:34:49.829
to offer their advice share their insight
00:34:49.829 --> 00:34:52.689
and share data that will help you come back and try
00:34:52.689 --> 00:34:55.809
to improve your institution I think we're
00:34:55.809 --> 00:35:00.209
really really privileged in higher education both in the UK and in Canada to
00:35:00.209 --> 00:35:07.049
have organizations like Cuccio and G-Sizer and the culture that's built through
00:35:07.049 --> 00:35:12.449
those groups of sharing and collaboration I think they're invaluable and you
00:35:12.449 --> 00:35:13.969
do not find them in other sectors.
00:35:14.329 --> 00:35:18.949
So I think we need to cherish these types of groups whilst we've got them.
00:35:19.769 --> 00:35:24.069
Absolutely agree. And I know Dana does as well. And there's also a therapy piece
00:35:24.069 --> 00:35:25.489
in there that you'll learn about soon.
00:35:26.289 --> 00:35:30.349
When things aren't going very well and you need somebody to just listen,
00:35:30.869 --> 00:35:32.029
there's always somebody there.
00:35:33.049 --> 00:35:36.789
Let's move on to just wrapping up here with some rapid fire questions.
00:35:37.509 --> 00:35:41.149
And so, yeah, what's one book you recommend for aspiring readers?
00:35:42.049 --> 00:35:45.129
Book my wife got me for christmas it's called change
00:35:45.129 --> 00:35:48.469
fluency it's by jq uh that's
00:35:48.469 --> 00:35:52.329
k-i-e-w and it absolutely speaks
00:35:52.329 --> 00:35:58.309
my language i saw jay give a keynote at the cio can conference earlier on in
00:35:58.309 --> 00:36:02.489
2025 it's the first canadian conference i've been to and i was blown away by
00:36:02.489 --> 00:36:07.709
him so i cannot advocate highly enough for this book get out there and get it
00:36:07.709 --> 00:36:08.929
and read it it's brilliant.
00:36:10.044 --> 00:36:14.544
We'll put a link to that on the website. One piece of advice for a new CIO.
00:36:15.204 --> 00:36:20.044
Listen, watch the room, take everything in before you start talking.
00:36:21.344 --> 00:36:26.964
If you can listen and hear what people are saying, it will make what you're
00:36:26.964 --> 00:36:32.004
saying back afterwards that much more reflective, positive, important.
00:36:32.284 --> 00:36:33.764
So listen before speaking.
00:36:34.464 --> 00:36:39.484
Awesome. One piece of advice for someone relocating to Canada or changing sectors, maybe.
00:36:40.644 --> 00:36:44.324
Make sure that you've got a really good coat for
00:36:44.324 --> 00:36:47.464
the winces and make sure
00:36:47.464 --> 00:36:50.284
you've got really good sunscreen sunscreen in the
00:36:50.284 --> 00:36:53.104
summers i i i think when you're
00:36:53.104 --> 00:36:57.464
sitting on the other side of the atlantic you really don't appreciate just how
00:36:57.464 --> 00:37:03.464
vast the difference and the four seasons can be and they're beautiful and i'm
00:37:03.464 --> 00:37:09.744
absolutely loving them but it's really cold and you are you are London is located
00:37:09.744 --> 00:37:11.104
right in a snow belt, right?
00:37:11.264 --> 00:37:14.284
So you get the streamers off Lake Huron, which is fascinating.
00:37:16.084 --> 00:37:20.104
I've gone from London to London and the weather is quite different. Yeah.
00:37:20.964 --> 00:37:24.244
If you could automate one part of your job tomorrow, what do you think that would be?
00:37:25.294 --> 00:37:30.694
You know, I don't know. And I don't know because I love doing the job,
00:37:30.854 --> 00:37:34.614
but every single activity I participate in is different.
00:37:34.934 --> 00:37:38.054
And I don't think there is one hard and fast rule for anything.
00:37:38.274 --> 00:37:41.534
So automating it could lead me to gaps.
00:37:42.394 --> 00:37:46.574
Awesome. I think that's a perfect answer. What's the most underrated skill for a modern CIO?
00:37:47.054 --> 00:37:51.374
I've touched on change management a lot today, and change management is definitely
00:37:51.374 --> 00:37:54.154
one of them. Active listening, I would say, is the other.
00:37:54.774 --> 00:37:58.494
Awesome. And let's get a little bit more on the personal side here.
00:37:58.854 --> 00:38:01.294
How are your kids liking the London winters?
00:38:02.214 --> 00:38:06.314
They're loving it. Last year, my daughter and son learned to ski.
00:38:06.674 --> 00:38:12.194
My daughter picked it up really quickly. And so she's been out there again this winter doing it.
00:38:12.554 --> 00:38:17.134
I think my son is, it's a bit of a double-edged sword, this one.
00:38:17.234 --> 00:38:20.914
My son is a football or soccer, as you would say here, player.
00:38:20.914 --> 00:38:23.674
And I coach his team here now the same as I
00:38:23.674 --> 00:38:29.834
coach his team in the UK but the winters in the UK would be very rainy very
00:38:29.834 --> 00:38:35.974
miserable and early mornings could be quite grim so playing indoor soccer through
00:38:35.974 --> 00:38:39.874
the whole winter has been really nice I don't know if that's my kids loving
00:38:39.874 --> 00:38:42.274
that though or whether that's me loving that to be fair.
00:38:44.674 --> 00:38:48.294
And what's the biggest personal surprise you've had since moving to Canada,
00:38:49.528 --> 00:38:54.928
I've got to say, it's how welcoming and personable the people have been since I got here.
00:38:56.068 --> 00:39:01.368
Right from day one. In fact, on day one, going into a few shops to buy,
00:39:01.368 --> 00:39:04.948
you know, the essentials that you need to take to the house when you're first
00:39:04.948 --> 00:39:09.688
moving in, particularly when you're in a new continent, we were getting stopped by everyone.
00:39:09.888 --> 00:39:12.828
Oh, oh, are you from Britain? Are you from England?
00:39:13.448 --> 00:39:16.668
And people want to talk to you and they want to have a conversation.
00:39:16.668 --> 00:39:21.208
And somebody even gave me their telephone number in the first week we're here
00:39:21.208 --> 00:39:23.088
and said, look, my parents were
00:39:23.088 --> 00:39:26.868
from the UK. And if you need any advice or anything, please just ring us.
00:39:27.128 --> 00:39:33.568
And I was blown away by that. It really felt very, very different from the UK
00:39:33.568 --> 00:39:38.208
where there are a lot of societal challenges right now.
00:39:38.688 --> 00:39:42.568
And the media are playing a massive part in creating divides.
00:39:42.568 --> 00:39:48.128
And so to come here was warm and it's been a real pleasure.
00:39:48.368 --> 00:39:49.908
I've absolutely loved my time
00:39:49.908 --> 00:39:53.948
here and I'm looking forward to seeing my children growing to adults here.
00:39:54.448 --> 00:40:00.708
Jason, this has been an interesting 45 minutes or so and lots of different insights.
00:40:00.908 --> 00:40:02.228
And so thanks for joining us.
00:40:02.628 --> 00:40:07.168
You know, your journey shows a lot about leadership and it's about having to
00:40:07.168 --> 00:40:11.828
adapt and have curiosity and have the ability to build capacity.
00:40:13.060 --> 00:40:16.040
Yeah. And if you're listening and navigating change, whether it's across borders
00:40:16.040 --> 00:40:20.700
or across campuses, Jason's story, you know, it's a reminder that surprises can be opportunities.
00:40:21.060 --> 00:40:24.580
We heard lots of interesting things there, you know, sitting around the president's
00:40:24.580 --> 00:40:27.520
table and what the CIO can bring. I think that's important.
00:40:27.980 --> 00:40:32.140
And, you know, don't focus on the first 90 days. You know, it might be a three-year,
00:40:32.240 --> 00:40:34.340
it might be a seven-year, it might be a 10-year plan.
00:40:34.520 --> 00:40:37.300
And I think that's a cool piece of advice. So thank you for that.
00:40:37.460 --> 00:40:41.640
As always, if you've got feedback, questions, or stories of your own,
00:40:41.860 --> 00:40:48.760
drop us a line at Feedback at BytesOfExperience.ca That's B-Y-T-E-S Of Experience.ca
00:40:48.760 --> 00:40:54.260
Or visit us at BytesOfExperience.ca And special thanks to Pixabee and the.