Serial Founder and Dragon: Michele Romanow on Building, Investing, AI & Motherhood

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Welcome to Between Tubernets, a show dedicated to highlighting Canadian voices.
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Together, we're sharing authentic conversations with the people shaping the future of Canada.
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We hope you enjoy the show. Michelle Romano, we're so excited to have you on the show.
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Are you ready? Are you ready for a conversation between Tubernets?
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Yeah, I've only been working for 12 hours. I did a full day of drag incentive today.
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But this is actually the most fun to kind of share really personal stories in a much more intimate setting.
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For the audience, it is 7 p.m. May 24 weekend, a full 12 hour shift and you squeezed us in. So we are very, very grateful.
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Yeah, but that's like the attitude I've always took for everything.
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I think a lot of people take this attitude of like, I can't squeeze one more thing in.
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I would rather be like, 10 minutes late and try and squeeze three things in.
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And I actually think that's gotten me pretty far. You know, like 90% of life is just showing up.
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Yeah. Yeah. We all got to get out of bed. It's all imperfect.
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And we're like, I'm just going to try one more thing. So of course I showed up.
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Absolutely. I want to start with a little bit of context on how you introduce yourself.
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Because we read obviously all the news articles, we know your professional background.
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People would introduce you as the youngest dragon on dragon stand, a serial entrepreneur, the woman who built the largest non-dilute of funding company.
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But from your perspective, how do you introduce yourself today?
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I've always thought of myself as the same person, which is I want to build something from nothing.
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And I want to be a builder at my core. I want to see a problem and not complain about it.
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Actually, just go fix it. And I think that I come back to that point and like the trendy word for this is gratitude.
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But I come back to constantly. I was born in a time in an era, especially for women, where you look at the options my grandmother was given, be a school teacher or be a secretary or be a nurse.
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And I was born in 1985 at a moment in time where there was lots of women that had done way harder work before me.
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And now I could be in a world where if I saw a problem, I could go solve it.
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And so I've just always thought of myself as a founder of my core. I now think about how I can enable the next generation of founders and how I can make more entrepreneurs.
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And so that's been, I've learned every lesson the hard way. It has been like painful learning all those things.
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But now if I can help more entrepreneurs by investing them, by giving them access to capital, like that's a great, that's a great legacy for me to leave.
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And you're now on your 12th season of Dragon's Den. You've done multiple angel investing.
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You're you've invested in inbox and the monos Maven Shea still willful science and humans. The list goes on.
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The whole space, the biotics, like there's like so many, I think there's like 50 angel investments.
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So many success stories and so many success stories and also, you know, some failures along the way.
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Are there patterns in those failures or successes that at the time you may have missed, but now looking back, we're more obvious.
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There's people that I meet now and I just look in the whites of their eyes and it's almost an intuition thing.
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And I just don't want to bet against them. They're just so persistent. I mean, Markle Flur is like the most perfect example of this, right?
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Did not come from a fancy family had sold meat door to door and he's like, I am going to build this company and started selling frozen, you know, farm to table.
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Meat from farms to people's homes. And Mark and I fought a ton in the early days, right?
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We fought about what the definition of locals should be and if he was spending too much money on advertising.
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And we had this really good relationship on like the push and pull.
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And when he came to me and he's like, I really want to exit like I'm getting exhausted.
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I was like, okay, this is what this spreadsheet is going to need to look like.
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And in six months, he had done every single one of these things.
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We found him a buyer. He exited the business with very small investors for 17 million.
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He became a full circle dragon this year, which is they came back for a guest episode where he was a dragon with five others and got to invest in new companies.
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And I think of Mark as like a perfect example of someone I just won't bet against like the guy ran an ultra marathon for fun.
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That's a hundred miles.
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Like I've done a marathon and that is exhausting.
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And I think fitness is always a good analogy for what this is.
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Like being a founder is being able to put up with the embarrassment for a long enough period of time that you find something.
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That is really what this is. So that's one of the patterns is an extraordinary amount of persistence.
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But that persistence is not going to bang my head against the wall and keep trying something.
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It's constantly iterating, looking at your customer, seeing what they're saying, seeing what makes sense, seeing what the new technology that can help you move faster is.
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Then I like certain spaces. I think that right now, if you are in anything health and wellness, people really care and are very price insensitive.
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I think if you look at AI, there's an incredible amount of things happening. And I think if you look at defense, there's a lot happening there too.
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I see those three areas. And so you have to pick the right river at the right moment in time.
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If we're going to remake the Vax machine, there's areas that are over.
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So those are some of the patterns that I've seen.
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I have a follow up there because it is such a good point.
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When you have an exceptional product and you can almost feel the market pulling the product for founders that have started companies where maybe it's the opposite.
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It feels like a giant push up a mountain and it doesn't you don't quite have the timing and just the the motion that you know what the feeling when it's like it loves all the great example.
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It's just growing so fast because the market's pulling it.
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Do you have signals or like advice that founders can think about when it's okay to keep going versus when it's time to pivot.
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I think there's yeah, there's this advice that's given like so generically so often that it's like do not quit.
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Like that's terrible advice. You actually need to know when to quit and when to start moving on your next iteration.
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You know, clear code did not start as a company that did non-dilutive funding for e-commerce brands.
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We had an entire project we worked on. We Andrew and I decided that FinTech was going to be one of the big deep streams of the last 10 years.
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I have to remember where we were in 2014.
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We were seeing Uber in its heyday, Airbnb in its heyday.
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Social media had just had this 10 year explosion and all I could think of is where is the customer expectation going where the conventional companies are not going to keep up.
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We had to be finance because banks are big and regulated especially especially here.
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And the consumer expectation was changing like now you could press a button and get an Uber.
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That expectation was going to be brought into banking and here we were on a 20 minute phone call to change a pin code like it was like no customer was doing that.
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I was like this is going to change in addition to that, you know, the tallest towers in every single city in the world are banks.
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So this is a big enough industry chase and it didn't start off that easily.
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We started building a daily pay product for Uber drivers. We worked on that for 18 months.
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We had deployed a lot of money. We had raised a seed round around that.
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You know, finally we're like, oh my gosh, this is so hard to service the customer service costs and this is really expensive.
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You know, this is not going to work. I just had to throw the whole thing out.
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Then we actually built a whole financing product for founders that had Airbnb properties and portfolios.
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So if you wanted to add a new property to your Airbnb portfolio, we'd finance that.
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I mean, these were not small experiments. We put 30 million dollars out to Airbnb host.
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And you know, it was really hard to get access to their API.
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It was really hard for us to get clean data, which is impossible if you're running running companies at the beginning.
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And it was then that I got on Dragon's Den.
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And one of the unique things about Dragon's Den is the amount of companies you see in a short period of time.
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I see a hundred pitches in like 15 days.
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So you start to really see patterns. And the pattern I kept seeing is there are so many e-commerce companies.
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They're here giving up their 10% of their company for their first $100,000.
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And they're going to spend all of that money on ad spend in inventory.
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And there had to be a cheaper, more data-driven way to back that.
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And that became the iteration that worked.
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And they're not all like, they're not all venture style outcomes that are going to sell for a billion dollars too.
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That's the other point. And again, I'm never afraid of that.
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There's tons of great Dragon's Den companies that can build 50 or a hundred million dollar businesses that are incredible outcomes for the founder.
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You just need to then not put too much capital and not put too much dilution if you have limited upside.
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So you talk a lot about pattern recognition.
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Yeah. And for the companies that you invested in that went through like really dark, dark times, but came out on the other side.
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Yeah.
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What differentiated them and what separated them from the ones that could in or didn't.
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It's this ability to move on and solve problems quickly and understand you are never out of problems.
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I think this is one of the great myths I told myself in the early days that it was going to get easier as I got bigger.
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You just upgrade your problems.
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There's just a whole new level of problems. And I think it's actually going to change because most of the problems you develop as you get big are people problems.
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That there's a lot of people that you're now paying very well that really want to protect their job.
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They're like, oh my god, I'm this great executive. I went to this place.
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But really, it's very much in their own self preservation that they want to see how valuable they are.
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And so you get these moments where like at some points, I would be like, there's like seven executives commenting on a Google doc right now.
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Like no one is doing anything. We're all debating something.
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And so to be the person that is constantly rewarding action, the leader that is constantly driving.
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And the other thing that gets companies out of hard problems is leadership that is constantly pushing your team.
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And so one of the funny stories that was always told about me, a clear co is there was this Michelle tax.
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And I kept like, what are people?
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What are you talking about the Michelle.
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And they're like, oh, well, if you say you can do 50 million, Michelle will just like think the number of 70 million.
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But that is what all great founders do.
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They push their team to believe that they can do more.
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And when you set the goal really high, you kind of always fall in the stars.
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If you set the goal low, you'll just kind of run into the floor, right?
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There's no there's no limit.
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And there's a lot of excuses for why things don't go well.
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And so the thing that differentiates the mediocre companies from the incredible ones are like,
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solve a problem, keep going, solve a problem, keep going.
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Like that resilience and that constantly moving from problem to problem is what wins every time.
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That's also a great point.
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We talk about this all the time.
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There's this big.
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I don't know if you've picked up, but there's this big shift right now where it's like the management layer is dead.
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And some of these modern companies are moving to like 40% individual contributor.
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And I always pick on like, there's this woman Eleanor Verna that talks about it.
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She she's like, everyone from our most juniors, her most senior has to be solutioning.
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And is like 30% still in the work.
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Yes.
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And everyone from a non technical to a technical role is expected to ship code to production.
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So this idea of like your management layer that just coordinates people and teams,
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but you're not in the work anymore.
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Totally, especially in AI, totally dead.
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Totally dead.
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Totally dead.
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And I'm like, I'm Chris to know, do you think that's where the world is moving?
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That I couldn't agree more.
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Okay.
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Like, first of all, let's level set.
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Today, a 200 person company could now look like, I don't know, 25 of 50 person company
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with a bunch of agents.
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Like the ability to scale without people will be completely groundbreaking
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into how we build companies today.
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Because that's a great attitude.
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Everyone has to be an individual contributor.
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Or at least like a percentage of your role.
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It's just like, I'm just a manager, isn't yeah.
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No, that has to be dead because you don't stay close to the customer.
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You don't stay close to how hard it is.
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It's very easy to tell people to do something when you're not doing the work yourself.
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You have to think about it as a marathon and you're the pacer.
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You're running alongside them.
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And it really, really changes people's perspective.
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And always as a leader, this is one of my hacks.
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When people say that they can't do something.
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Again, I very politely do it for them.
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Because number one, they have to know that the work is never below me.
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I'm not a person that believes that.
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I will take of the trash.
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If the trash needs to be taken out the day before our buyers come.
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Like truly, CEO is chief everything officer.
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Like it all rolls up to you.
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So you have to show your team that you're not precious.
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That you will get your hands dirty and you will do it.
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And then the second thing is that what they're seeing as a challenge
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isn't really a challenge.
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And so, you know, you don't see an ad set you like,
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like upload a camera myself and I'm like, this is the shot I want.
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Or I'll get it a post it and I'll sketch exactly what I want,
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the page built that I want to see.
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Or the biggest one is sales.
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They're like, that person won't close.
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And I will call them on speaker phone in front of them.
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Because I want everyone to pick up on what I'm seeing
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and I'm doing that they might not see.
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And again, you have to do this.
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This is not, this is not a game of ego.
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This is not I'm better than you.
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This is a game of we're a team.
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And then everyone feels that teamwork and that competition
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that we're just going to make this work.
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And then people are way more honest.
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I think the other thing that happens within organizations
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is people do a lot to sugar code their own numbers.
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And within, like you should always put your best foot forward externally.
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But internally.
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Like the politics and you look better.
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Yeah.
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Internally, you should be ultra critical.
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You should be like, oh, what could be better?
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And like, is, are we really making money on a per unit basis
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if we include every single college?
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It's like the slot card light reel.
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You see what it's like.
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Yes, you're going to like people wanting to protect themselves.
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They want to protect their rules.
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Yeah.
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And the more senior people you get, the harder it is.
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And it's your job as the founder to be constantly turning
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over these rocks and being like, what are the challenges in this business?
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And what am I seeing that you are not?
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And I can tell you there's many times in my, my biggest fuck ups
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are when I didn't pull on a thread where I hadn't intuition on.
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I'm like, hmm, something doesn't feel right with these unit economics.
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And something doesn't feel right with this investor.
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And if I just asked another 20 questions, I would have got it.
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But if you can get your team to the point that they're not protecting themselves
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and there's really safe for them to tell you what's going wrong,
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you solve those problems way faster.
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And now I think, I mean, we have the help of AI.
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There's going to be a lot more ways to analyze and look at data
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without some going at it.
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I mean, again, my favorite phrase from consulting is, show me the result
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and I'll show you the data.
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Like, always remember, you can cut data in any way you want to.
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Yes, completely.
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If you want to put it on a pitch deck.
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Yes, true.
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But why are you lying to yourself?
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You're the one building this company.
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Your outcome is if your customers are happy.
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So I would take, I always take a very critical lens to that part of building.
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I want to go back to your comment that you made around stepping in
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and showing that something is capable when maybe people either don't want to
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or they don't think they can.
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A lot of that comes down to mindset.
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And yes, I think it is trainable to a degree.
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But do you believe that the best founders and the best team members
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just have that innately and have that same viewpoint as you do?
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When I like to hire people, I screen a lot for agency.
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So I look at this is, is the world happening to you?
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Or are you happening to the world?
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Yeah.
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And you have to be happening to the world.
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And anything that looks like a victim mindset and I can't fix this
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and I can't build it and there was too many challenges.
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You know, you're telling me a hard story about yourself and it was all your boss' fault.
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Like I just, I just don't believe even if it was, why didn't you fix it?
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Yeah.
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That's your job to fix it.
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Your job is to like build the best possible company we can.
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And you rarely do that by looking at a mountain of excuses.
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Or just accepting things as face value like Stephen Bartlett.
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He's another podcaster and he talks a lot about paper walls
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where you don't know something's a wall until like you actually push on it.
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Sometimes it moves and sometimes it doesn't.
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But you don't know until you have to try.
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Yeah.
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You have to push and you have to encourage people to push for sure.
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You've said you index on obsession speed and the ability to take tough feedback.
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I'm curious to know within this environment, do you wait those all the same still
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or has anything shifted?
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Oh.
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I have a fallout depending on what your take is.
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Obsession, speed and ability to take tough feedback.
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I mean, I would still like the first two are still the most important to me.
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If you like love something and are obsessed in moving quickly,
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you know, you're very hard to beat.
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And that applies if you're a founder or you're working at a company.
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I think ability to take feedback.
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We all have moments that we're like, I just can't hear one more piece of negativity.
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You know, I did most of a psych degree along semi engineering degree.
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And there is like two things I'll never forget from that experience.
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And the first is that people have a feedback ratio that they can take.
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And this is especially true with their partner in life.
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And it's like seven to one.
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Like it's a mind blowing number.
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Like I have to hear seven good things for me to really digest one negative thing.
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And psychologically, we think it's one to one.
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And I like, hey, I said, you're great.
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Or the sandwich.
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Yeah.
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Exactly.
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But we really need to have a lot of encouragement to feel good about ourselves.
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And so I do, I think I do try and give a lot of positive feedback with negative feedback.
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I think that's really important if you're the leader.
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And the second thing I remember learning in psych is that when they look at all the personality traits
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and they serve it, all the people, people always gravitate.
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The personality trait they want the most in anyone they're dealing with
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is the ability to be genuine and authentic.
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And so I just think it doesn't matter who you are.
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Just be you.
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Yeah.
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And, you know, I have been extra and lots of things in my life.
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But I'm like, you lean into who you are because people just know that it's real.
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Yeah.
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And it's very, very trustworthy.
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But you were going to ask a follow up on obsession versus.
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A session speed.
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Yeah.
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That's right.
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No, my follow up was related to speed because all you hear now in the news is like building
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something has never been cheaper than ever.
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Yeah.
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Building something has never been easier than ever.
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So now I'm like speed is kind of could get, could get written off because anyone can technically
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get something up and going.
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Like when it comes to company building.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Getting to MVP is a lot faster.
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So I'm like, is there something else that actually is going to start to be more valuable than speed?
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And, but it comes back to what you're saying about yourself and trust because I actually think
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that's part of the answer.
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Yeah.
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You kind of answered it.
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So still speed even with AI tools completely relies on your own agencies.
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That's so true.
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Yeah.
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That's very true.
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Like all the tools are out there.
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Yeah.
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You can choose to use them or not.
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And everyone has that.
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You can write a speech where you're like, give me the first AI slop answer.
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Or you can spend an hour and a half with it being like, make this funnier, make this
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a good idea or think of something else.
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And so I think agency still very much matters there.
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Yeah.
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But what people confuse is they confuse your own personal speed with now what's building competitive
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advantages and companies.
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So usually startups had a competitive advantage just being faster because the one thing big
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companies can't be is typically fast.
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They have regulation.
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They have compliance.
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They have lots of people.
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They have negative Nancy's in their company.
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They have brand risk and reputation.
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These all create slowness.
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And so typically when you were a startup, you could be like, oh, I can just go really fast.
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And I can win by being faster.
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Now that's like being eroded away because, you know, companies can move a bit faster.
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But that's very different than today what creates competitive advantages.
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So now the software mode is going from this to this.
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Because now you can say duplicate this perfectly.
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I mean, this, you know, PR stunt this company did where they duplicated every single
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YC company in a weekend is still mind blowing.
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As someone who spent 20 years building software.
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This idea that you can be like, go build this.
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And again, it's not perfect.
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And it's probably not security compliant.
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But it's 80% working is insane.
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So then you're like, okay, so the software mode is gone.
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What are the new modes?
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Well, that doesn't create customer trust any faster.
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So we're still going to have to live in a world where people really trust and really build a brand based on storytelling and customers and everything else.
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And it means there's going to be way more competitive advantages built in distribution.
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And so I think that's the framing we now need to use.
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And so I would never confuse being fast personally and obsession with something that will always win.
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You just don't bet against a guy that runs 100 miles.
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Like they're just they're going to access they're going to wire they care.
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But it will shift where we create those competitive advantages.
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I always say to Sam, I'm like distribution is more defensible than product eight not in every industry, but like eight times that's even why we started a podcast.
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I'm like, I just want to try something in distribution because I think it's it's where you own the customer, you own the like channel, you own everything else.
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And look at another example from D to C.
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I mean, every major beauty brand that's been created has either been in the last decade has been a major makeup artist with millions of followers or celebrity with millions of followers.
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I mean, this is a business where you make a dollar product and you sell it for $42.
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Like your only advantage is distribution labs are very good.
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There's a reason that the entire beauty culture is obsessed with dupes because they are quite literally duping.
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They're saying go create me a version of this.
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And you can do it because the price is really on on brand and marketing.
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It's not on the product.
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There's just not you know, there's really not expensive ingredients in cosmetics.
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Aside from the the piece on distribution as someone who invests really early stage in businesses.
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And now it's much easier to get to a place where things could look ready for you to invest in.
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What are the other things that you look at to assess viability of a company in today's landscape?
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The number one metric that will never lie to you is your repeat rate.
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It applies to almost any industry universally.
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You can convince anyone to do something once.
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It is very difficult to keep people coming back.
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And some people have natural rebuild models in their cycle.
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I mean, when you buy shampoo and you're in love with the shampoo, your hair gets dirty every three days.
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So you've got to keep buying the product.
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And software companies did an extraordinary job of transitioning from buying literally Microsoft Windows 95 CDs to now you're going to pay for this per month per head count.
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I mean, very sophisticated models that I think got so aggressive that they're all going to go away because now people have a lot of incentive to rip out those constructors that have previously been built.
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But always go back to customer return rate.
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Because people that come back and do something time and time again and love your brand and love your product.
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And again, that can be created with distribution in different ways, right?
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You're selling to government.
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There's a huge barrier to entry and getting approved and getting inside and having the relationships.
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Those create really deep modes when you have very unsexy spaces.
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I mean, that is generally a great mode.
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I mean, everyone think is thinking about how to create a beauty brand and a skincare brand and a consumer goods brand.
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No one is thinking about how to use AI to fix the title insurance industry.
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And how to how to build, you know, better emergency equipment when an ambulance comes, right?
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Those will be I love going into unsexy businesses.
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In the veterinary industry.
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Exactly.
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It's pretty cool.
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It does make it look sexy.
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Yeah.
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But like, did you like fish?
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And did you like coupons?
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And did you like, I'm like, I like taking market share.
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That was really not right?
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Yeah.
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You get excited about a product.
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But then you get excited when you see a spreadsheet.
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And I would never, you know, confuse those two.
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Retention on customers for things where it's like a really long period before you're rebuying something like several years.
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But still a consumer.
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Yeah.
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What you're, if you would have any good recommendations or strategies that you've seen work for that, I think of like Patagonia.
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Yeah.
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Where they let you send your product.
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Your old thing back.
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And they'll repair it for you.
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Yeah.
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And so you're 100% going to buy again from them the next time you need a sweater.
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Yeah.
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But you don't need one every year.
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You need one every five, five, six years like my Patagonia is.
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Yeah.
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Exactly.
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So you can buy it all in a single long cycle.
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A brand can still build trust.
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So your Patagonia example is amazing.
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People know that the stuff is built for life.
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I think we're all living in an era of mass consumerism.
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All of us have basically way too much stuff.
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And, you know, it's now working to be like, I need less.
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And so they built a brand of trust where you feel like you can come back.
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And, you know, they keep creating needs for our outdoor experiences.
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Like we can go to them for it.
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But if I'm 25 and listening to this and wanting to build a business today,
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are there any tactical first steps that you can recommend?
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Start asking an enormous amount of questions to everyone you need.
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I think you would completely underestimate how curious I am in my day to day life.
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To this day.
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To this day.
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It is like a part of my personality.
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Yeah.
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Like a learner.
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I don't like not knowing things.
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I believe that everything can be learned.
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And see, this is really important.
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The best pieces of information are not available on the internet.
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And they are not in books, especially about industries.
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There are things people tell you.
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And so you just, you have to ask.
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I mean, call founders, like some guys like I work in the garbage industry,
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I'll ask them a hundred questions about why this business is the way they are
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and why we don't recycle more and why this is happening because people will tell you
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all sorts of the challenges that they will never write down.
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Because there's a lot of unsavory things in life.
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There's a lot of reasons that like make no sense and don't have a good PR spend
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and aren't really great things that we're doing to begin with.
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But they're working or what's not working or where people haven't seen that.
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And so that starts with that curiosity.
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00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:35.000
And I mean, look, I get a lot of in-bounds for all sorts of advice and requests
453
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:37.000
and I can't possibly take them all.
454
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:39.000
But when someone messages me and they're like,
455
00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:42.000
I'm going to build another snap-saves app or I'm going to build another clear code
456
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:43.000
we would give me advice.
457
00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:47.000
I literally give people my cellphone number and I'm like, call me for 10 minutes.
458
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:49.000
Because let me save the next 10 years of your life.
459
00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:51.000
I make every mistake in that industry.
460
00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:54.000
I can tell you where the hard parts are.
461
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:57.000
And you'll find actually a lot of people that are more helpful than not.
462
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:03.000
And then in the worst key scenario, you can just ask a bunch of strange questions.
463
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:05.000
Most people will talk to you.
464
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:07.000
Like if you're curious enough, most people will talk to you
465
00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:09.000
and go in with really intelligent questions.
466
00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:12.000
Like read everything you can on the internet.
467
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:16.000
But remember that the best pieces of information are never there.
468
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:17.000
You don't have to go find them.
469
00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:18.000
I'm on LinkedIn every day.
470
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:21.000
I offer to pay people for advisory.
471
00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:22.000
I'm always like, will you?
472
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:24.000
I'll give you $400. I'll wire you.
473
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.000
Can you get on call for two hours?
474
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:27.000
And I just like download their brain.
475
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:30.000
And I think you can fall into the trap, especially if you're a top performer.
476
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:32.000
You are maybe coming out of school.
477
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:34.000
You think you should have all the answers.
478
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:36.000
And so you're afraid to talk to people.
479
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:39.000
Because you think that you want to show your, you know,
480
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:41.000
your best foot forward on something.
481
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:42.000
But it really does accelerate.
482
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:43.000
Yeah.
483
00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:44.000
Yeah.
484
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:46.000
You should be closely aiming to be the dumbest person in the room.
485
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:47.000
Not the smartest person in the room.
486
00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:48.000
Yeah.
487
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:51.000
I heard your story on you were the dumbest of three friends growing up.
488
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:52.000
Yeah.
489
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:53.000
Did you hear that?
490
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:54.000
I heard it somewhere.
491
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:55.000
I was just like, that's why.
492
00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:56.000
Yeah.
493
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:57.000
I'm like, how did that shaper probably in a lot of ways?
494
00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:58.000
In a lot of ways.
495
00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:59.000
Yeah.
496
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:01.000
That was one of the most important childhood things.
497
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:02.000
And just told us three reasons.
498
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:03.000
So.
499
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:05.000
So I'll just, I'll just, I'll just share the highlight reel of that again.
500
00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:08.000
So I switched schools in grade six to grade seven.
501
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:11.000
And I went to elementary school in Regina.
502
00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:13.000
I was one of like three girlfriends.
503
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:17.000
And they all, I mean, one of my friends turned out to be a brain surgeon.
504
00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:19.000
The other one looked for the Supreme Court.
505
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:21.000
He's ended up being extremely smart girls.
506
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:24.000
But all I remember in grade six is I was the dumbest of three.
507
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:26.000
And that was my whole, that was my whole set.
508
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:27.000
Hard place to be.
509
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:28.000
It was a hard place.
510
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:29.000
Especially at that age.
511
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:32.000
I remember one of my friends, like she could play piano much better than me.
512
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:36.000
And I was like, very devoted and became actually a very good piano player after that.
513
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:39.000
And the other one could like read a chapter book way faster to be like,
514
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:41.000
these are your metrics when you're in grade five.
515
00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:43.000
And I just felt like this underdog.
516
00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:46.000
And I remember switching schools and working so hard.
517
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:49.000
And this grade seven teacher came up to me after the first semester.
518
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:52.000
And she's like, you have the highest average in school.
519
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:53.000
I was like, what do you mean that's impossible?
520
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.000
And the dumbest of like everyone.
521
00:30:55.000 --> 00:31:00.000
Like I, I knew I was like working harder than the kids that weren't paying attention.
522
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:03.000
But in my, in my, I just never thought that.
523
00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:08.000
And I think that early confidence was, was really important to me.
524
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.000
But yes, do not be afraid to be the dumbest person in the brain.
525
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:12.000
Yeah.
526
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:13.000
I also, you're the eldest daughter, right?
527
00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:14.000
I was also like reflecting.
528
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:16.000
We're all eldest daughters.
529
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:18.000
And I think they all have a bit of achievement trauma.
530
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:19.000
I hate to say it.
531
00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:21.000
I think there's like such a high correlation.
532
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:23.000
So there's an achievement trauma.
533
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:25.000
The other thing that I always have in the back of my brain,
534
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:31.000
this is my own like personal hack, is right now.
535
00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:34.000
Is the least stupid time to ask your question.
536
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:35.000
Mm-hmm.
537
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:38.000
Every moment that goes on after this, if this meeting continues,
538
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:41.000
if this relationship continues, like,
539
00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:42.000
it's worse.
540
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:43.000
Yeah.
541
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:46.000
Because if you didn't know this two hours ago,
542
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:48.000
why didn't you ask me two hours ago?
543
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000
Yeah.
544
00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:50.000
Yeah.
545
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:52.000
And again, you can't, you have to like read the room a little bit.
546
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:54.000
If there's lots of people in the room, you can't dominate the space.
547
00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:55.000
For sure.
548
00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:56.000
Use your brain.
549
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:59.000
But I remember that I'm like, I'm going to ask now.
550
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:02.000
And I think that gives me a lot of confidence.
551
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:03.000
Yeah.
552
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:05.000
The other way that framing work is you're like, I'm the hottest,
553
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:06.000
I've ever been at this moment.
554
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:08.000
Look, started a climbing asset in every moment that goes on.
555
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:09.000
So you don't feel confident.
556
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:11.000
You're like, it's just getting worse for me.
557
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:12.000
It's a great thing.
558
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:14.000
I feel like asking people the questions, when you don't know something,
559
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:17.000
also builds the trust and authenticity that you were talking about.
560
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:18.000
For sure.
561
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:21.000
Because they feel like you're being honest and up front with them.
562
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:22.000
Yeah.
563
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.000
Before we go to Clear Co.
564
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:24.000
Yeah.
565
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:27.000
Like, are there this may, this may not be something we want to touch on.
566
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:28.000
But I'm from Nova Scotia.
567
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:29.000
Yes.
568
00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:34.000
And so I found your decision to move to New Brunswick at 22 as an engineer
569
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:39.000
and start the Kabir company to be both hilarious and also quite daunting.
570
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:44.000
Because I can imagine it's, it's quite a difficult industry to break into.
571
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:45.000
Yeah.
572
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:50.000
Like, how did you convince yourself that that was like a reasonable first start at 22?
573
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:51.000
Oh, my gosh.
574
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:53.000
We're so nuts.
575
00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:55.000
I still think about this story.
576
00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:00.000
And I'm like, how on earth did we convince ourselves to do this?
577
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:02.000
So there was a couple of things that were like truly a play.
578
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:05.000
So the first is I meant Anatolian undergrad.
579
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:07.000
Business partner.
580
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:08.000
Yeah.
581
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:11.000
My business partner in my life partner is amazing.
582
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:18.000
And he, he like found me in this library and he's like, hey, what are you doing?
583
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:21.000
And I was like, oh, I'm getting like ready for this business plan competition.
584
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:24.000
I started this little thing called the tea room in undergrad.
585
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:27.000
And he was, he was cool.
586
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:28.000
I was not cool.
587
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:29.000
He's like, oh, come tomorrow.
588
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:33.000
He's like, oh, you got like, you get like prize money that's like, you know, gifts and kind.
589
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:35.000
Like he like $25,000 to start a business.
590
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:36.000
And he's like, oh, that's pretty good.
591
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:39.000
And I was like, dude, it's a, it's a Saturday morning.
592
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:41.000
Like there's no way he's going to show up.
593
00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:42.000
Like Saturday morning he shows up.
594
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:43.000
He was invested.
595
00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:44.000
Yeah.
596
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:46.000
And he was like, he was like, well, you didn't win.
597
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:48.000
But like we should do this next year.
598
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:51.000
Like we should do the business plan competition circuit.
599
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:57.000
And so we spent like, I mean, six months just brainstorming different ideas.
600
00:33:57.000 --> 00:33:59.000
And there was nothing we weren't afraid to touch.
601
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:05.000
Like this became the game that defined my whole life is constantly talking about opportunities.
602
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:06.000
I mean, we'll walk through an airport.
603
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:07.000
We'll get in an Uber.
604
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:11.000
Well, like everything we're looking at is like everything is an opportunity.
605
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:16.000
And it's a great life hack because you're way more positive when you're looking for opportunities instead of.
606
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:17.000
For sure.
607
00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:18.000
Negativity.
608
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:21.000
Like you have a lens that's constantly focused on what the opportunity is.
609
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:23.000
Not why doesn't this make any sense.
610
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:26.000
Anyway, so he convinces me to do these business plan competitions.
611
00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:28.000
We come up with this caviar idea.
612
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:29.000
Okay.
613
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:32.000
And like what went let like why caviar?
614
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:34.000
Worldwide supply of caviar was down by 95%.
615
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:35.000
I mean, that's a pretty good.
616
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:37.000
We had overfished the Caspian Sea.
617
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:39.000
I was like, I guess we can do this.
618
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:42.000
We like randomly went to go visit fish farms.
619
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:46.000
Like in the US, I remember buying a ticket to California.
620
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:47.000
Returned for $400.
621
00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:49.000
And I was like, okay, we got to go.
622
00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:51.000
We had no money.
623
00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:55.000
Anyway, we won like six of these business plan competitions.
624
00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:58.000
We graduated with $150,000 in prize money.
625
00:34:58.000 --> 00:34:59.000
Wow.
626
00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:04.000
And I had job offers from consulting firms and from engineering companies.
627
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:07.000
And I was like, we should just try and do this.
628
00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:09.000
And it was scary as fuck.
629
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:14.000
I mean, we got in an old Toyota Camry and drove to New Brunswick.
630
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:21.000
I mean, we lived in a motel room for nine weeks when we were there.
631
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:22.000
And this is the best part.
632
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:24.000
We were like catching fish all day.
633
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:25.000
And I like didn't have a window that opened.
634
00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:26.000
It smelled so bad.
635
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:27.000
Like the whole thing.
636
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:28.000
Like this is.
637
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:29.000
This is just like catching fish.
638
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:32.000
And then you're removing the caviar yourself.
639
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:34.000
Or like actually going.
640
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:36.000
We've literally had to fight this very long story.
641
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:37.000
We had to like find a fisherman.
642
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:39.000
We had to find the right equipment.
643
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:40.000
Yeah.
644
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:41.000
Like we process the fish ourselves.
645
00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:42.000
So yes.
646
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:43.000
That means it's great.
647
00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:44.000
It's crazy.
648
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:47.000
People are like, we did like some bonding retreats with our.
649
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:48.000
Our co-founding team.
650
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:49.000
I was like, guys, you have not.
651
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:52.000
What a bonding experience.
652
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:55.000
It was like hard physical labor.
653
00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:58.000
This is like figuring out how to make the product.
654
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:01.000
Like this is cold calling restaurants from flip phones.
655
00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:05.000
I heard you waited 10 hours outside of a fisherman's home.
656
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:06.000
Oh my gosh.
657
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:07.000
To like find her first fisherman.
658
00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:13.000
There is like, but that level of scrappiness is what you need forever.
659
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:15.000
You cannot lose it.
660
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:16.000
Yeah.
661
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:20.000
We have a great story where we wanted to close this deal with Uber.
662
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:23.000
And we knew lots of senior people at Uber, but I hadn't met Travis at the time.
663
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:25.000
He was running the company.
664
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:28.000
And so we figure out how to go to an event where he's speaking.
665
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:30.000
And I remember there's like multiple dinner tables.
666
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:31.000
And like, I'm over there.
667
00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:33.000
He's eating with like this is a big conference.
668
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:35.000
This is not like I'm there with a few.
669
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:38.000
I'm there with like three thousand other people.
670
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:40.000
And he's having dinner with like Eric Schmidt.
671
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:43.000
And like there's been a very important people at this table.
672
00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:48.000
And I look at Andrew and I was like, well, they say do one thing a day that scares you.
673
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:49.000
So here goes.
674
00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:51.000
And I just walked on over it.
675
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:52.000
And I introduced myself.
676
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:53.000
Yeah.
677
00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:54.000
And.
678
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:56.000
And I just gave him my two minute pitch.
679
00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.000
And he was like, oh, that's a great idea.
680
00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:58.000
And he's like, this is my email.
681
00:36:58.000 --> 00:36:59.000
And like, let's go do this.
682
00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:00.000
Yeah.
683
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:01.000
We're closer than we think.
684
00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:02.000
Yeah.
685
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:03.000
We're closer than we think.
686
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:07.000
And so that level of doing one thing a day that scares you.
687
00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:10.000
I think we were really lucky that we had this prize money.
688
00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:15.000
And we have, you know, for ever continued to donate to business, my competitions
689
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:18.000
because we think our whole lives would have been different.
690
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:20.000
If we weren't given a little bit of that startup money.
691
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:21.000
Yeah, sure.
692
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:22.000
To start.
693
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:26.000
But I think after that, it was really about, are you willing to take the risk?
694
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:28.000
And are you willing to stomach?
695
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:31.000
All your friends being like, oh, my God, you guys are the crazy fishing people.
696
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:33.000
Like, are you willing to be embarrassed?
697
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:36.000
Are you willing to have this be very hard for not one year or two years?
698
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:39.000
My first exit, I was 28 years old.
699
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:40.000
I mean, we started when I was 21.
700
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:41.000
That means we were like.
701
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:42.000
That's not safe.
702
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:43.000
That was not safe.
703
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:46.000
We sold as a group on my 20th birthday, which is young.
704
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:47.000
Yeah.
705
00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:50.000
Like, we made no money from 21 to 28.
706
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:51.000
Yeah.
707
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:52.000
So that's actually a big grind.
708
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:55.000
All your friends were making money and banking and consulting.
709
00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:00.000
And they're, oh, my God, you seem like I screen shot at my bank account the day before we sold to group on it.
710
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:02.000
I had $10,000 in it.
711
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:05.000
Like, we were like in it.
712
00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:06.000
Yeah.
713
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:07.000
It was hard.
714
00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:08.000
Yeah.
715
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:15.000
I follow up question here for people listening to this that because you're such a great inspiration story that want to build wealth or legacy or like,
716
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:21.000
are there any mentalities or philosophies that like have made you the success story that you are?
717
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:22.000
I don't know.
718
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:23.000
I don't know.
719
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:25.000
I think the first thing is the framing of like, I'm not that successful.
720
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:26.000
I'm literally just a person.
721
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:31.000
I'm a person in the world that like tried to get something done and they tried to do it at scale.
722
00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:35.000
I think you just, you have to be excited about leaving the world a little piece better.
723
00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:42.000
I think having a daughter completely reshaped that perspective all together is is.
724
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:46.000
You know, one of your questions was what's like one of the two most exciting things in your life.
725
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:49.000
And I'm like, well, the first thing is AI because it shows you how fast the world can change.
726
00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:53.000
And the second is my daughter, which shows me what really matters.
727
00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:57.000
And so you kind of combine that and I think you get a really powerful mindset.
728
00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:02.000
So I have a quote from you that you said that for every business that people know about,
729
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:04.000
there are five that didn't work.
730
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:11.000
How do you actually know when something is worth betting on versus just being an interesting problem to solve?
731
00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:16.000
You know when to not quit when the customer is pulling like it's easy to find.
732
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:19.000
They want the product even though it's not perfect.
733
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:23.000
And then you have to combine that with really good unit economics.
734
00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:25.000
People like this is such a huge mistake.
735
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:28.000
So many people make is they're like, oh, well people love it.
736
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:30.000
Like you're giving it away for free.
737
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:32.000
Of course, people want one dollar bills for 80 cents.
738
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:34.000
They will always want that.
739
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:35.000
Yeah, always.
740
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:36.000
Yeah.
741
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:39.000
That makes me think of like the food, the food prep kits.
742
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:40.000
Yes.
743
00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:41.000
They give you your first one.
744
00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:44.000
Like, of course, I'm going to take three and a buy out of our again.
745
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:45.000
No.
746
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:46.000
Right.
747
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:47.000
And so you can get trial.
748
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:49.000
But does that trial again back to repeat rate?
749
00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:50.000
Yeah.
750
00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:52.000
And so that I think those two things are really important.
751
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:55.000
And I never try and lie to myself on unit economics.
752
00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:57.000
Like that is one lie and never try and make.
753
00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:59.000
And like at the cohort level too.
754
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:00.000
Yes.
755
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:01.000
Like the cohort level.
756
00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:04.000
It's so easy to be like, we'll fix this with scale.
757
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:07.000
This gets infinitely worse with scale.
758
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:08.000
That's true.
759
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:09.000
Yeah.
760
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:11.000
And you can go and you can iterate a little bit.
761
00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:13.000
But again, there's only so much.
762
00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:15.000
People are working on it.
763
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.000
And now we have a very different problem in society.
764
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.000
We have mass inflation across everything.
765
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:22.000
We have apples and food costing more than ever.
766
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:27.000
It is going to really push a lot of categories that are not necessary.
767
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:30.000
So people are going to pay to feel healthy.
768
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:32.000
And they're going to feel to pay safe.
769
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.000
And they're going to cut a lot of other things.
770
00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:35.000
Mm hmm.
771
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:39.000
As like a more luxury or niche code, let's take, for example,
772
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:40.000
the Khabiara industry.
773
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:41.000
Yeah.
774
00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:44.000
How does a company like that pivot in today's environment?
775
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:48.000
Oh, I mean, we, the end of that story is we didn't survive.
776
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:51.000
We had the giant recession in 2008.
777
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:55.000
I'm 22 years old, selling the world's most superfluous luxury product.
778
00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:58.000
And it was just time to find the next thing.
779
00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:00.000
And so that's okay too.
780
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:02.000
That's back to your four and five.
781
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:03.000
Don't work.
782
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:04.000
You have to try a lot.
783
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:06.000
And so that's okay too.
784
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:08.000
That's back to your four and five.
785
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:09.000
Don't work.
786
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:11.000
You have to try a lot of products.
787
00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:12.000
And that's okay.
788
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:15.000
And I constantly like coach the entrepreneurs that I invest in that like,
789
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:16.000
okay, this isn't working.
790
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:18.000
Like move on to the next iteration.
791
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:20.000
Like you just got to keep, you just got to keep playing with it.
792
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:21.000
Yeah.
793
00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:23.000
I'm curious to know of the five or six businesses.
794
00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:24.000
I forgot how many.
795
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:28.000
Which one developed to the most as a founder, leader, entrepreneur?
796
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:29.000
Oh, clear code.
797
00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:30.000
Yeah, okay.
798
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:31.000
Without question.
799
00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:33.000
I mean, it was perfect.
800
00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:36.000
Yeah, I mean, it was eight years of my life.
801
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:37.000
Yeah.
802
00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:39.000
It was getting to scale.
803
00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:40.000
It was growing internationally.
804
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:43.000
It was doing all sorts of things that I had never done before.
805
00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:45.000
It was dealing with a bigger team.
806
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:47.000
It was dealing with a large amount of capital.
807
00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:50.000
Like there was a lot there that developed me for sure.
808
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:51.000
Yeah.
809
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:54.000
And I imagine lots of lessons that you learn and take away from that.
810
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:58.000
Were there any decisions in the moment that you did have a gun,
811
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:02.000
got instinct about and you knew maybe wasn't the right move,
812
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:05.000
but you have a team and you're having to work as a team player
813
00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:09.000
and like looking back, you knew in the moment.
814
00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:10.000
Oh, yeah.
815
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:15.000
There was like products that were people's babies that were not
816
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:16.000
the core business.
817
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:20.000
There was, there was lots of things that people work on.
818
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:23.000
And then sometimes you don't know either, right?
819
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:27.000
I mean, we had access to the chat GPT like 2.0.
820
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:32.000
We were starting to see how powerful this was in the early days.
821
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:34.000
And we were trying to like build products on it.
822
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:37.000
And you know, you could argue that some of those could have been shut down way too soon, right?
823
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:38.000
But they weren't making money.
824
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:39.000
And then you're scared.
825
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:40.000
And then you're on the quarter.
826
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:43.000
And it's, it's really, really hard for the audience.
827
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:44.000
Yeah.
828
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.000
Of course they don't know what clearco is.
829
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:46.000
Yeah.
830
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:50.000
Maybe let's go back and just describe where the idea stunned from.
831
00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:51.000
Yeah.
832
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:52.000
Because it's a full story.
833
00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:55.000
And also just share that at its peak,
834
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:57.000
clearco was worth north of $2 billion.
835
00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:58.000
Yeah.
836
00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:01.000
You raised 215 million from Softbank.
837
00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:08.000
And you deployed over $3 billion to over five or 10,000 businesses, which like the scale of that is actually huge.
838
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:11.000
Like I was thinking, it takes some venture firms decade.
839
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:16.000
Maybe not decades, but a decade to deploy a billion dollar fund, which is crazy.
840
00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:25.000
So just maybe for the audience, what is clearco in your own words is the mission and what you created still true today and how has it evolved?
841
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:26.000
Yeah.
842
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:30.000
So the mission was always, how do we make everyone an entrepreneur?
843
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:37.000
And you do that by not only encouraging entrepreneurship, but it's really like starts and stops with access to capital.
844
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:44.000
And every single founder has the same working capital problems, the same inventory problems.
845
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.000
The same, I need money for ad spend problems.
846
00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:50.000
I have a purchase order problem.
847
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:56.000
And we then, 10 years ago, looked at this and were like, well, there's actually way better data.
848
00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:58.000
Customer doesn't even need to submit a lot of data.
849
00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:01.000
We can find that from digital platforms where they can't lie.
850
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:07.000
It's very difficult to make your Shopify data, match your Stripe data, match your meta account data.
851
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:13.000
And so if we looked at all of those and automated that process, we get to deploy a lot of capital.
852
00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:20.000
And in many ways, I never imagined clearco and the idea would get this big.
853
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:29.000
And not only the scale of deploying that many billions of dollars, the fact that we have a global competitor and almost every economy around the world.
854
00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:33.000
I mean, this was an idea that we started uniquely in Canada.
855
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:38.000
So about like being like Shopify or just like smaller players.
856
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:43.000
Yeah, you look at, there's lots of competitors and I don't want to name them all.
857
00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:45.000
We're not giving them any other time.
858
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:52.000
There's unicorns in Europe, but there's lots of players that have built revenue based financing in India and South America.
859
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:59.000
So I think that the impact was the amount of capital that we have deployed is incredible.
860
00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:06.000
The type of entrepreneurs that we have reached the problem always with capital is that it's dependent on who you knew.
861
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.000
And it's been that way for like a long time.
862
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:09.000
We looked 2000 years ago.
863
00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:14.000
If you knew the king and you had a good idea, your roads were going to get funded and your ideas were going to get funded.
864
00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:21.000
And really nothing has changed except if you went to a fancy school, then you had fancy friends.
865
00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:23.000
And then they could deploy a lot of capital with you.
866
00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:27.000
And there was a lot of trust built in the relationship system, which I have no problem with.
867
00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:37.000
There's just, I saw the opportunity of so many overlooked founders that had great ideas that had great unit economics that couldn't get access to capital.
868
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:48.000
And so, you know, clear code still does that today and they do that for hundreds of founders every single year and they continue to iterate their products so they just become better and easier for founders to use.
869
00:45:48.000 --> 00:46:03.000
Now that the model and this framework for underwriting has evolved, do you still see the lack of unconscious bias like holding true and they're getting more founders from diverse backgrounds getting approved for sure.
870
00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:14.000
Yeah, for sure. I mean, that was always and again, the best part of seeing an opportunity was I saw so many great companies that were getting funding.
871
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:24.000
And that frankly, even on dragons and didn't make sense to be equity deals right a lot of these consumer brands would never exit or would never have a buyer, but they were producing cashflow and they could have dividends in their business.
872
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:29.000
So why not take effectively like a royalty like structure out of their business.
873
00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:42.000
There are still so many founders that come to us that would have never been given a chance by other places and then there's founders that were given a chance by every single fancy investor who was like, this is great.
874
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:47.000
I got to keep more of my company if I get funded with clear code. So I think we have that range.
875
00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:57.000
We still have, you know, half of our portfolio is women. I mean, people don't understand how big the stat is like in the VC world, 2% of venture capital goes to women.
876
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:03.000
That stat has not changed in a decade now. I mean, it changes by like 50 basis points. It's not. Yeah, that's not a meaningful change.
877
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:10.000
Yeah, can I because clear was one of those stories that got so much media and news coverage. There was a rise in a fall in a rise in a fall in a rise.
878
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:25.000
I'm curious to know after the recapitalization and you made the decision to step down as CEO, what was like, what was that actually like to go through at the time and has it changed you in hindsight or are there bigger learnings that you took away from all of that.
879
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:31.000
I think people like forget where we were at that moment in time.
880
00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:39.000
The pandemic was great. And then there was an enormous amount of venture capital deployed in 2021.
881
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:51.000
So, you know, everyone's valuations were inflated. And then in, you know, in a very short period of time, interest rates went up the fastest that they've gone up in like 30 years.
882
00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:59.000
And we're a business that makes money on a spread. I have to get money from investors and then lend that out and make a margin on that.
883
00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:12.000
And so when that shifts so quickly, that was really hard for us to pivot. And that was really hard for us to pivot at a time where we had also just expanded internationally had also done some other really not anticipating that.
884
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:23.000
And so I think, I mean, I think I got it the best way I got to build this incredible company, you know, the legacy and the company has still continued to do exceptionally well.
885
00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:30.000
I brought in a CEO that had worked with us at the company for six months when Andrew Curtis took over. He's done an amazing job.
886
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:38.000
He did an incredible job recapitalizing every part of these debt facilities that needed to need restructures for us to grow.
887
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:52.000
And, you know, the company still deploys like a ton of money per month. So I think I'm just really, I'm really happy that I had a person that I could have so much trust in.
888
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:57.000
And that I had left my mark on a business and now that business continues on without me there.
889
00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:06.000
We talked a bit off camera at the beginning just about how hard the news outlets can be, especially in Canada.
890
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:17.000
Do you think that we are not rewarding risk takers enough when we think about culturally how people respond to like failures or setbacks?
891
00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:25.000
Because yeah, like I just think with this, there was no harm done in anything you did. You guys laid off a couple of people.
892
00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:34.000
No one got hurt. No one like lost their well being. And yet you guys got dragged for it.
893
00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:44.000
Yeah, I think I mean, I remember there was at one point where we, you know, laid off three people and it was national news. Like this is outrageous. Like how can you run a company if that's the scrutiny or under.
894
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:53.000
I mean, there was media outlets chasing our employees for any piece of, you know, bad thing that was happening. I think that this has to stop.
895
00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:59.000
If we're going to build companies of meaningful scale and take risks in this country. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
896
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:05.000
Like there's, there is no, we have 100% tall poppy syndrome in this country.
897
00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:08.000
Can you describe tall poppy syndrome for people that you hear?
898
00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:17.000
It's like as soon as someone gets too successful, we just put all of our resources into not celebrating them, not cheering them on about trying to tear them down.
899
00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:19.000
Oh, you're the tallest poppy we should snip you down.
900
00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:28.000
And we protect these all gopales and monopolies in our country, which I'm like, well, why don't you go chase them?
901
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:31.000
We all know what makes a really good market. It's having a lot of competition.
902
00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:37.000
I mean, you can, there's, there's books written about that. I mean, this is the basis of, of economics.
903
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:45.000
But we really go after entrepreneurs that take a risk. And we disproportionately probably go after female entrepreneurs that take a risk.
904
00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:54.000
And this, I mean, look, it is what it is. I'm happy to operate in the market system. I'm just saying if Canada wants to be successful, we should fucking stop.
905
00:50:55.000 --> 00:51:05.000
Because you end up being so worried about what's going to happen. And ready? Like everyone knows, every good company, read their glass door reviews.
906
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:08.000
Someone has something terrible to say about every single boss in the world.
907
00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:15.000
And I get that I need to have a really tough skin. And I do have a really tough skin. But there's a lot of mischief that happens.
908
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:23.000
If journalists continue to press on a company time and they press on all their employees, like, what are we doing here?
909
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:28.000
And we don't have that many unicorns in this country. We don't have many people that have taken a risk.
910
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:38.000
We have a lot of people that build safe businesses here. And so I think that we should be really encouraging to do that because there's a lot of innovation in this country.
911
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:47.000
Do you think we are disproportionately harder on female entrepreneurs building in this country or just North America globally? Or do you find that not to be true?
912
00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:56.000
You know, I really try not to take a sexist lens to things. I think it, again, puts me into like this victim space that I see.
913
00:51:56.000 --> 00:52:07.000
But there is a rarity to it, which makes it different. So again, if you're the only female in the room, which you are often, then you get more attention.
914
00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:17.000
You probably get more press on the way up because you're more rare. And then you probably get, you know, hit harder on the way down because you're more rare.
915
00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:32.000
And so I think that, that knife cuts both ways. And I would just say in general, this has happened. I think I've gotten a call from every single major founder that's built a company that matters in Canada.
916
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:35.000
And the way that the press has chased them on things that do not matter.
917
00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:37.000
You're respective of who you are.
918
00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:38.000
Of who you are.
919
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:47.000
And, you know, I understand that there's journalism. And I understand that there's reporting. But there's also just a point where we're just, you know, you're not even allowing companies to breathe.
920
00:52:47.000 --> 00:53:03.000
We've seen this story unfold a couple times. And I'm curious if you have any advice where you raise too much money to high evaluation. And then it creates this fragile cycle of crazy expectations, crazy high burn. And then if the market turns, which it often does a lot of risk.
921
00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:10.000
We know that this is a reality. And yet it happens to so many startups every single, probably every single day, every single year.
922
00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:15.000
Do you have in hindsight any, any advice for, for people listening?
923
00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:23.000
I think I, you know, I look a lot about the advice I give my founders. And there's like a couple things that are really important.
924
00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:33.000
The first is the more money you raise, the more money you spend. And building something that at its core is capital efficient, where people understand that.
925
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:42.000
And you can feel it when you're in a company. Like there is a way to do a photo shoot for $10,000. And there's a way to do a photo shoot for a million dollars.
926
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:43.000
Tell us about it.
927
00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:53.000
Showing up to your own company. And you're like, this is outrageous. It is. And it's your one canary in the coal mine where that cost creep is, is going everywhere.
928
00:53:53.000 --> 00:54:03.000
And there are times where raising money makes a lot of sense. But you have to really know what you're going to do with that capital. And you have to be really, really disciplined around that.
929
00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:15.000
And then you just have to do the math, like too few founders actually look at the spreadsheet, right owning, you know, a bigger percentage of a medium outcome can be completely life changing.
930
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:23.000
Whereas if you're owning 10% of your company, like I've always cared about this because this is actually the founder math that matters.
931
00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:30.000
It's why you should take on non-delutive capital because when you own more of your company, you get a bigger payout at the end.
932
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:41.000
And the other thing is you control less of your destiny, the more capital you raise, you have your boards, and you have people that just need to make three or four times their money before they're even, you know, comfortable with you exiting.
933
00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:52.000
So I think those are like the critical questions you need to look at. Sometimes you get that lightning in a bottle where you know you're going to get copied. And it's the right moment, but you have to be pretty certain of that.
934
00:54:52.000 --> 00:55:02.000
With everything AI is doing to drive down the cost of building a company. Do you think we'll start to see founders default to go to VC shrinking.
935
00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:15.000
I think the VC market is in a really interesting place. And I talk about this in both the US and Canada because there has been way less exits because a lot of companies have stayed private for a lot longer.
936
00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:27.000
I mean, Stripe could have gone public, like, I don't know, five years ago if they were on the same pace that Google was. And so there haven't been the same realized returns in VC funds.
937
00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:36.000
There is now going to be a lot of dead software companies and a lot of these companies right now. And so that that space is going to shift a little bit there.
938
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:41.000
I mean, there's still an always will be access to risk capital. I just think you're going to be able to do a lot more with a lot less.
939
00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:50.000
And so that's like a huge advantage. Like people are like, how big say I is it like, you know, the iPhone. And I'm like, this is like electricity.
940
00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:51.000
This is huge. Yeah.
941
00:55:51.000 --> 00:56:01.000
This is like this is this should blow your socks off. And I have another really good framing, which is, you know, again, with my like never a victim mindset.
942
00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:11.000
I like to think of myself as like I'm the elder millennial and 40. I hit every single technology wave at the perfect time.
943
00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:14.000
So I was born without the internet.
944
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:15.000
Yeah.
945
00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:24.000
I got a dial up computer when I was in grade six. So I was just like no phones, no screens as a child, like they just like they truly didn't exist.
946
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:28.000
There was a TV with cartoons. If you if you really wanted to watch that. Yeah.
947
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:37.000
Then I did all of my embarrassing, you know, undergrad and high school years without a cell phone. I mean, flip phones were just coming out.
948
00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:42.000
I mean, I truly went to all of university without a cell phone. If I could believe it. I had a landline in my dorm.
949
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:49.000
Think about this now. And like, and then I'm a year out of school and the iPhone comes in. I'm like, wow, I'm 20.
950
00:56:49.000 --> 00:57:02.000
I should be running this like crazy product just came out. And you know, that defined the next 20 years. And now I'm 40 having built every piece of knowledge I'm building a startup and like AI shows that.
951
00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:06.000
So it's like a pretty perfect timing of the world.
952
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:15.000
I agree. It feels literally 10x bigger and 10x faster than any previous tech trend. And like so many days I like I still can't quite process the speed.
953
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:20.000
I said there. And I'm like, I need a full time. I need a full time job to learn realization of like this podcast.
954
00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:32.000
Yeah, we can do this as a side project because of AI. There's no more entire stack entire stack, but also even just like the ideation helping draft all of our dog.
955
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:34.000
Like everything everything.
956
00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:43.000
I'm curious to know because there's always two camps. There's like the dystopian lens on AI. And then the utopia because of the race to AGI and all that.
957
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:49.000
You're wandering around that. It could be true. I have no idea. And the utopian lens. Where do you fall in that spectrum?
958
00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:57.000
So I mean, and look, I could definitely be accused of wearing rosy eyed glasses.
959
00:57:57.000 --> 00:58:00.000
I think we're there with you. I'm loving it.
960
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:07.000
I think, you know, 98% of the world used to work in agriculture. And now it's 2%.
961
00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:12.000
And somehow we all figured it out.
962
00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:13.000
Yeah.
963
00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:17.000
We did figure that out over a much longer period of time than what we're doing now.
964
00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:22.000
Yeah. So I think this is going to be very bumpy.
965
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:27.000
And I don't think anything's like truly dystopian. I think we need car Brails on technology.
966
00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:31.000
And I think some really dark and weird things can happen.
967
00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:35.000
But generally, I mean, I also just take the view of like why view it as negative.
968
00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:37.000
You can't put the genie back in the bottle.
969
00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:41.000
Like the only thing that can continue to exist in the past is like the Canadian healthcare system,
970
00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:45.000
which are somehow faxing things from likes to like, like I'm like,
971
00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:48.000
you guys like heard of the email or internet.
972
00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:52.000
Just like throwing this out there.
973
00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:55.000
Digital files.
974
00:58:55.000 --> 00:59:02.000
So, you know, I'm sure we're going to see some pretty aggressive dark examples.
975
00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:07.000
But I think, you know, at any point you can choose to be the optimist or you can choose to be the pessimist.
976
00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:11.000
And people are going to build companies that they never thought possible.
977
00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:15.000
They're going to be creative in ways that they never thought possible.
978
00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:19.000
And it's really cool to have like almost seen things like the old way.
979
00:59:19.000 --> 00:59:20.000
Yeah.
980
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:21.000
You have an appreciation for both.
981
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:22.000
I hired a copywriter.
982
00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:23.000
Yeah.
983
00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:24.000
It's crazy.
984
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:25.000
It's just crazy.
985
00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:26.000
Yeah.
986
00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:27.000
Yeah.
987
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:36.000
Is this one big experiment of like natural selection in like accelerated form of who will be able to adopt it and become like self resilient from it and who
988
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:45.000
won't be able to adapt and like we'll just see people gaining incredible wealth and security and then others.
989
00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:46.000
Yeah.
990
00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:47.000
Not being able to.
991
00:59:47.000 --> 00:59:48.000
That will happen.
992
00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:49.000
Yeah.
993
00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:50.000
I think we don't.
994
00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:51.000
You don't want that, right?
995
00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:53.000
Like euphemism for all of this recovery is like the K shape recovery, right?
996
00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:54.000
Rich keep getting richer.
997
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:55.000
Poor people getting poor.
998
00:59:55.000 --> 00:59:56.000
Like that's not.
999
00:59:56.000 --> 00:59:57.000
It's not the world.
1000
00:59:57.000 --> 01:00:05.000
One of the great all marks of society was that we had this big middle class in Canada and the US for so long.
1001
01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:07.000
I think that's still a very fair aim.
1002
01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:09.000
I don't think we generally do that through more socialism.
1003
01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:17.000
I think that we do that through more innovation because when people can start and build companies, they change the shape of society in the best possible way.
1004
01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:24.000
And so, you know, I hope that people take the agency to do that because you can do a lot of things on your cell phone.
1005
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:25.000
You can just like put it that way.
1006
01:00:25.000 --> 01:00:31.000
You can choose to read the entire encyclopedia of the world's knowledge or you can choose to play a game.
1007
01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:34.000
And you can chose like endlessly scroll social media.
1008
01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:35.000
Deep scroll.
1009
01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:36.000
Exactly.
1010
01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:37.000
Exactly.
1011
01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:38.000
For sure.
1012
01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:39.000
We all do scroll.
1013
01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:40.000
Like we all get into these these patterns.
1014
01:00:40.000 --> 01:00:45.000
But you can also like remember you're holding like the world's most powerful device and you can do anything with it.
1015
01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:52.000
And so it's all going to be about individual agency and then surrounding yourself with the people that are taking that individual agency.
1016
01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:55.000
And I hope we are in the golden era where things are built.
1017
01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:59.000
And again, distribution does not happen overnight.
1018
01:00:59.000 --> 01:01:03.000
Whether you're getting an audience, whether you're getting a customer, no one is going to be able to replace that.
1019
01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:05.000
They're still going to be trust in brands.
1020
01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:08.000
They're still going to be relationships that people need to have.
1021
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:10.000
So it's not like the whole world is falling apart.
1022
01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:12.000
People would just duplicate anything overnight.
1023
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:13.000
Yeah.
1024
01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:14.000
Yeah.
1025
01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:15.000
It's just really changed.
1026
01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:16.000
Yeah.
1027
01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:20.000
And also like the to the point on agency, the one thing that I heard the other day.
1028
01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:27.000
And it's again, interesting is obviously we know companies are throwing dollars at anyone that looks smells feels AI native.
1029
01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:37.000
And it was it's a 75% men that are cashing in and women are like down here compared to men on usage and actually building it like vibe coding.
1030
01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:38.000
Whatever cloud coding.
1031
01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:44.000
And I'm like, why is that and is there anything for even like women listening to this pod that they could be doing to change it?
1032
01:01:44.000 --> 01:01:45.000
Oh my gosh.
1033
01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:47.000
Just like this is vice on how to get started.
1034
01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:49.000
Let's reframe this.
1035
01:01:49.000 --> 01:01:54.000
This is the easiest thing you've ever learned because there is natural language processing.
1036
01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:56.000
You get to talk to it like it's your friend.
1037
01:01:56.000 --> 01:01:57.000
Yeah.
1038
01:01:57.000 --> 01:01:58.000
Yeah.
1039
01:01:58.000 --> 01:02:04.000
Let's look at the comparison on what it took to learn to code.
1040
01:02:04.000 --> 01:02:06.000
Learning code is actually very difficult.
1041
01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:12.000
And learning to write like clean, beautiful, secure code is really, really hard.
1042
01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:16.000
Like there's a reason software engineering is a four year program.
1043
01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:19.000
So I mean, like reform at your brain, right?
1044
01:02:19.000 --> 01:02:21.000
Like I don't know why women are getting ahead in this.
1045
01:02:21.000 --> 01:02:23.000
There's absolutely no reason to not.
1046
01:02:23.000 --> 01:02:27.000
You argue that we have a leg up to because our communication is much better.
1047
01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:31.000
We should be able to prompt better naturally.
1048
01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:33.000
I think this is maybe an agency thing.
1049
01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:36.000
I was just rolling and start just asking questions.
1050
01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:37.000
Yeah.
1051
01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:38.000
There's no.
1052
01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:40.000
And I mean, it's scary for all of us.
1053
01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:43.000
I'm there being like, okay, we got to buy a Mac mini.
1054
01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:45.000
And like, okay, now I'm building an agent.
1055
01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:46.000
And what's this agent doing?
1056
01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:49.000
And like, this is like a trial and error.
1057
01:02:49.000 --> 01:02:51.000
Like I remember my first trial and actors.
1058
01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:52.000
What am I doing?
1059
01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:55.000
And now I do not do anything without going through cloud first.
1060
01:02:55.000 --> 01:02:57.000
Like it has changed my entire workflow.
1061
01:02:57.000 --> 01:02:58.000
Right.
1062
01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:00.000
So also changed the hiring profile pretty drastically as well.
1063
01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:05.000
But again, like start with things that you would use in your day to day life.
1064
01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:07.000
Like I need to buy this.
1065
01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:08.000
What is the best product for this?
1066
01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:10.000
It's like, it's really bad.
1067
01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:11.000
Sometimes it product recommendations.
1068
01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:12.000
I was like, where did you find these things?
1069
01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:13.000
These are all hideous.
1070
01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:14.000
Yeah.
1071
01:03:14.000 --> 01:03:16.000
And then it like speaks to so much confidence.
1072
01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:21.000
I get my has to do like a lot of like legal work for me.
1073
01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:23.000
I'm like, okay, read this contract.
1074
01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:24.000
Find this.
1075
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:28.000
And I'd say I made myself like a maybe like a second or third year lawyer.
1076
01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:34.000
Like I kind of got good enough at legal work over, you know, being an entrepreneur.
1077
01:03:34.000 --> 01:03:36.000
For long enough, it's like still read my own contracts.
1078
01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:39.000
But like, wow, it's good at being like, okay, this is something.
1079
01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:42.000
And I keep going like, what's the most aggressive term you say?
1080
01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:43.000
What's a reasonable term?
1081
01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:46.000
What's like, give me every version of the iterations.
1082
01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:50.000
And then sometimes it like makes mistakes and like following in it.
1083
01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:53.000
I'm like, you went back like three steps.
1084
01:03:53.000 --> 01:03:55.000
You can't like blindly trust.
1085
01:03:55.000 --> 01:03:56.000
You cannot blindly trust.
1086
01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:59.000
But I would find now it's like connected to our data systems.
1087
01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:00.000
So it's gotten so smart.
1088
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:08.000
So I'll be like every Monday, like review these data sets, write a report summarizing the trends and blast it to the operations and channel.
1089
01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:09.000
Totally automated.
1090
01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:11.000
And like now I also, I taught it the other day.
1091
01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:17.000
I'm like, take these 10 competitors, look for these 15 things and send me a report every single morning at 8 a.m.
1092
01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:18.000
Of the Coles notes done.
1093
01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:21.000
So like, there's things now that I don't check in on anymore.
1094
01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:23.000
I just like, I know that it's accurate.
1095
01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:25.000
I am legally deeply concerned.
1096
01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:32.000
Completely automated large companies who are on co-pilot because the capability difference between what you can do in cloud.
1097
01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:34.000
And like they can't do anything.
1098
01:04:34.000 --> 01:04:35.000
Yeah, anything.
1099
01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:40.000
And like, I'm really curious to see what that means in like one to two years from now.
1100
01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:41.000
It's going to be crazy.
1101
01:04:41.000 --> 01:04:45.000
And remember that like industries don't change that fast.
1102
01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:52.000
Like you can still find lots of companies making gobs of money today that are like doing a accountant with someone woman with a stapler writing checks.
1103
01:04:52.000 --> 01:04:53.000
Yeah.
1104
01:04:53.000 --> 01:04:54.000
Yeah.
1105
01:04:54.000 --> 01:04:55.000
That has not died.
1106
01:04:55.000 --> 01:04:56.000
Yeah.
1107
01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:59.000
So again, we're kind of like all in a tizzy about this.
1108
01:04:59.000 --> 01:05:01.000
It's just that some people are going to get massively ahead.
1109
01:05:01.000 --> 01:05:02.000
Yeah.
1110
01:05:02.000 --> 01:05:05.000
You're going to have such a huge advantage building something that's AI native.
1111
01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:06.000
Yeah.
1112
01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:09.000
Never going to have to rip these systems out in the first place.
1113
01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:10.000
They're just going to exist.
1114
01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:11.000
Exist.
1115
01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:16.000
And then also like, I really encourage people to have fun with technology.
1116
01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:18.000
Like it is so fun.
1117
01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:19.000
Yeah.
1118
01:05:19.000 --> 01:05:20.000
I would.
1119
01:05:20.000 --> 01:05:22.000
Like, I'll give you a really fun example of something.
1120
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:30.000
I also like you, you use, like I use cloud or chat really like for a lot of personal things, right?
1121
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:31.000
Like ask it.
1122
01:05:31.000 --> 01:05:33.000
Interesting like relationship or DNA.
1123
01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:34.000
I'm a questions when you're really angry.
1124
01:05:34.000 --> 01:05:37.000
Like it's, it's really quite good sometimes.
1125
01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:43.000
Another fun use case is like I ask it lost the questions about Sasha and like how our development is and everything to know about baby.
1126
01:05:43.000 --> 01:05:45.000
And then my other really fun.
1127
01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:47.000
Yeah.
1128
01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:48.000
Easy ways to dip your toes in.
1129
01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:52.000
Like, you know, and that's kind of version one is like the better form of Google.
1130
01:05:52.000 --> 01:05:55.000
But like, have it make you really good at something.
1131
01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:01.000
So my other like fine use case that if you haven't played around just start trying is like, I use it for cooking.
1132
01:06:01.000 --> 01:06:05.000
Because now that I'm cooking so much more because I have a baby and I care, you know, what's in everything.
1133
01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:11.000
I'm like, okay, I have exactly 2.2 kilograms of minced round chicken.
1134
01:06:11.000 --> 01:06:15.000
I want to make the most authentic Mexican taco I've ever had.
1135
01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:16.000
Yeah.
1136
01:06:16.000 --> 01:06:17.000
And you should see this.
1137
01:06:17.000 --> 01:06:19.000
And then I'm like, make it gluten free.
1138
01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:20.000
And wait a second.
1139
01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:24.000
I only have these ingredients my fridge and perfectly portion it to like like.
1140
01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:28.000
It's searching 20,000 chicken taco recipes.
1141
01:06:28.000 --> 01:06:34.000
It's then being like the chef's secret to this is these three things that I genuinely didn't know.
1142
01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:37.000
It's summarizing all of it.
1143
01:06:37.000 --> 01:06:40.000
I remember I was like, this food is so fire.
1144
01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:41.000
It's actually like not me.
1145
01:06:41.000 --> 01:06:42.000
It's like just quad.
1146
01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:43.000
Yeah.
1147
01:06:43.000 --> 01:06:44.000
You're sous chef.
1148
01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:49.000
It's definitely what I'm just thinking that's suddenly wiped out some some apps that do this for sure.
1149
01:06:49.000 --> 01:06:53.000
Oh, my it's going to wipe out so it's going to wipe out so much.
1150
01:06:53.000 --> 01:06:54.000
Yeah.
1151
01:06:54.000 --> 01:06:59.000
Like I think of the prediction of like my phone has like 200 apps on it and it's going to have four.
1152
01:06:59.000 --> 01:07:00.000
Yeah.
1153
01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:01.000
Yeah.
1154
01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:07.000
Do you think companies are passing on the cost savings enough to stay competitive long term?
1155
01:07:07.000 --> 01:07:12.000
No one's going to say we're going to see prices drop for services.
1156
01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:13.000
Yeah.
1157
01:07:13.000 --> 01:07:23.000
So like it's not just like your margins increasing from increasing your adoption of AI but actually passing that on to the customer so that they stay with you.
1158
01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:25.000
It's a really good question.
1159
01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:32.000
So I like the framework of when a technology is driving a cost down to zero.
1160
01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:38.000
It like creates tons of new innovators and you look at all of the classic examples of this.
1161
01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:41.000
Like even look at the last generation of companies, right?
1162
01:07:41.000 --> 01:07:44.000
People were willing to stay at someone's Airbnb.
1163
01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:47.000
Not because it was like, oh, this is like a cool place.
1164
01:07:47.000 --> 01:07:48.000
Like that's just a story.
1165
01:07:48.000 --> 01:07:50.000
It was way cheaper.
1166
01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:53.000
We were in the middle of the 2008 recession.
1167
01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:58.000
Like of course they'll stay in like some apartment for $70 and I went every other option is 400.
1168
01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:04.000
Like of course I will get in a random strangers car because it is like one quarter of a price of a taxi.
1169
01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:07.000
And then you build competitive advantages from there.
1170
01:08:07.000 --> 01:08:11.000
And so you again, location-based services drove down that cost.
1171
01:08:11.000 --> 01:08:15.000
And that's when you can get a lot of people to move over.
1172
01:08:15.000 --> 01:08:25.000
So I think companies are going to have a hard time passing that on because especially when you are used to reporting certain numbers.
1173
01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:28.000
It's very hard for like people to lay off employees.
1174
01:08:28.000 --> 01:08:30.000
It's very hard to rip people out of the system.
1175
01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:38.000
It's very hard to say, oh, we're going to have, you know, we're going to pass on this margin to our customer and savings.
1176
01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:40.000
But there will be a brand new version of that.
1177
01:08:40.000 --> 01:08:43.000
Yeah, with the incumbents that will incorporate a company for $500.
1178
01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:44.000
Yeah.
1179
01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:48.000
Because the reality is is that the incorporation documents are like 95% the same.
1180
01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:54.000
I want to double back because you said guard rails earlier and I listened to a really interesting, I forgot which podcast it was.
1181
01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:58.000
But there's this big narrative right now on, can we trust the AICOs?
1182
01:08:58.000 --> 01:09:00.000
Can we trust Sam Altman?
1183
01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:04.000
And the big conclusion was no and we shouldn't have to.
1184
01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:12.000
Like would we have blindly trusted tobacco CEOs decades ago to not market to children and teenagers?
1185
01:09:12.000 --> 01:09:13.000
No.
1186
01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:14.000
There was regulators in place.
1187
01:09:14.000 --> 01:09:18.000
So it's the same notion right now of like, because Scott Galloway, he was going crazy.
1188
01:09:18.000 --> 01:09:22.000
He's like, why does the public expect us to blindly trust the CEOs?
1189
01:09:22.000 --> 01:09:25.000
Like that should their job is to maximize shareholder value.
1190
01:09:25.000 --> 01:09:28.000
We should not be in a position where we have to blindly trust them.
1191
01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:34.000
We should know that there's regulators and guard rails in place to keep these technologies in check.
1192
01:09:34.000 --> 01:09:35.000
So I'm just at where do you?
1193
01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:41.000
Well, the other thing is there's another nuance here, which is the playbook to build the most powerful monopoly.
1194
01:09:41.000 --> 01:09:45.000
The most powerful monopolies are created very fast.
1195
01:09:45.000 --> 01:09:48.000
There's a market leader and that market leader says we'll still regulate.
1196
01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:54.000
Because then they create regulation that makes it extremely difficult for competitors to come to market.
1197
01:09:54.000 --> 01:09:59.000
And so that has happened in a lot of different technology spaces.
1198
01:09:59.000 --> 01:10:05.000
That's happened until communication, that's happened with search, that's happened in a couple of different places.
1199
01:10:05.000 --> 01:10:10.000
So there is actually a very smart playbook on why they're pushing.
1200
01:10:10.000 --> 01:10:12.000
Okay, we're the market leader and now we need to regulate it.
1201
01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:14.000
The regulation actually protects us.
1202
01:10:14.000 --> 01:10:15.000
That's interesting.
1203
01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:18.000
So that's another interesting point on that.
1204
01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:27.000
And yes, of course we need like capitalism works when there are some basic rules that we have to follow.
1205
01:10:27.000 --> 01:10:32.000
And we're in a really weird place now because a lot of things are shifting.
1206
01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:34.000
Yeah, and the governments can't keep up.
1207
01:10:34.000 --> 01:10:38.000
Well, the governments can't keep up and I am still a big believer.
1208
01:10:38.000 --> 01:10:43.000
Like we need to continue to attract really smart people to government.
1209
01:10:43.000 --> 01:10:46.000
Because if we don't have that, it becomes very difficult.
1210
01:10:46.000 --> 01:10:48.000
These are not easy things to regulate.
1211
01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:53.000
You cannot, you cannot come into this industry in four months and expect to understand every nuance.
1212
01:10:53.000 --> 01:10:59.000
And there's been lots of periods in society where we have done a good job regulating and gotten incredible outcomes.
1213
01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:02.000
Because again, Europe will probably over-regulate AI.
1214
01:11:02.000 --> 01:11:04.000
And then they'll own none of the big companies.
1215
01:11:04.000 --> 01:11:06.000
And maybe that's a big innovation.
1216
01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:08.000
Yeah, I'm not sure it's that model either.
1217
01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:10.000
I think it has to sit somewhere in the middle.
1218
01:11:10.000 --> 01:11:14.000
Yeah, but this concept of like consumers need to be blindly trusting these CEOs.
1219
01:11:14.000 --> 01:11:17.000
Like no, that should not be where we operate from.
1220
01:11:17.000 --> 01:11:18.000
Yeah.
1221
01:11:18.000 --> 01:11:23.000
Yeah, and it's also just so funny how like you have people leave one company and start an ethical AI company.
1222
01:11:23.000 --> 01:11:26.000
And then they leave that company to start a more ethical AI company and I'm like, where is this going?
1223
01:11:27.000 --> 01:11:28.000
It doesn't make sense.
1224
01:11:28.000 --> 01:11:37.000
Kind of a good segue from AI, but one of my favorite lenses into how people think is what they teach their kids and how they steer their kids.
1225
01:11:37.000 --> 01:11:44.000
Are there any just lessons or philosophies or things that you are passing down to Sasha?
1226
01:11:44.000 --> 01:11:52.000
Well, the first is that I am not so cocky to believe I have any idea what the world is going to look like by the time she is even going to university.
1227
01:11:53.000 --> 01:11:59.000
If she even goes to university, I have a big belief she's probably not going to go to university.
1228
01:11:59.000 --> 01:12:03.000
There's going to have to be something that exists in those like growing up years.
1229
01:12:03.000 --> 01:12:06.000
Do you think the school system is not working anymore in the way that it's like?
1230
01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:09.000
I think it's just it's going to like all change.
1231
01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:18.000
I mean, now like the best kids in school had individual tutors and now you should theoretically be able to scale the best tutor with AI.
1232
01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:30.000
One of my favorite analogies from some of these habit books that I've read is that building excellence is about constantly being tested at your 70th percentile.
1233
01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:37.000
And so it's like if you're playing tennis with someone that's always like 30% better than you, you're always getting like 10% better.
1234
01:12:37.000 --> 01:12:41.000
But if you're playing and you are at like 10% success rate, you just give up.
1235
01:12:41.000 --> 01:12:44.000
You're like, why am I doing this? I can't even hit the ball. This is so frustrating.
1236
01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:48.000
If you're playing at 100%, you're like, I'm so bored. This is so easy.
1237
01:12:48.000 --> 01:12:53.000
And so this magic exists at this like 70th percentile.
1238
01:12:53.000 --> 01:12:57.000
And there's a lot of concepts in school that exists on a map.
1239
01:12:57.000 --> 01:13:03.000
Like I don't know if you've seen this graph, you can see every single concept in mathematics.
1240
01:13:03.000 --> 01:13:06.000
And you can see how they all tie to one another.
1241
01:13:06.000 --> 01:13:14.000
Like it's finite. So you can easily teach the entire world of mathematics to a child at the exact speed they want to go.
1242
01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:17.000
But there's a lot of things in math that build on another.
1243
01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:20.000
So you cannot do algebra if you cannot do fractions.
1244
01:13:20.000 --> 01:13:25.000
And it's very easy to have just fallen behind at one moment or another.
1245
01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:27.000
Maybe you were sick. Maybe you never got it. Maybe you're teacher sucked.
1246
01:13:27.000 --> 01:13:30.000
There's like a thousand reasons a child couldn't get something.
1247
01:13:31.000 --> 01:13:38.000
But if you have something that's pulling you back being like, oh, no, no, let me remind you on how you do this exercise to get the next one.
1248
01:13:38.000 --> 01:13:41.000
I think that's really cool. So I don't know what I care about Sasha.
1249
01:13:41.000 --> 01:13:44.000
I try and be like, there's like a million dichotomies and mother.
1250
01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:47.000
But I try and be pretty calm about everything.
1251
01:13:47.000 --> 01:13:50.000
I try and, you know, really limit screens and really limit sugar.
1252
01:13:50.000 --> 01:13:54.000
And beyond that, I try and let her discover.
1253
01:13:54.000 --> 01:13:58.000
Yeah, I'm like, if we can just avoid those two things a little bit,
1254
01:13:59.000 --> 01:14:01.000
she will like all the white flour. She will like all the sugar.
1255
01:14:01.000 --> 01:14:03.000
I've never met an adult that doesn't like candy.
1256
01:14:03.000 --> 01:14:06.000
So she will get plenty of it in her life.
1257
01:14:06.000 --> 01:14:09.000
And I don't also think you can be so psychotic that, you know,
1258
01:14:09.000 --> 01:14:12.000
there's like a birthday party going on and you're like, here's your carrot.
1259
01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:15.000
Like what kind of world are we living in either, right?
1260
01:14:15.000 --> 01:14:21.000
But I do think like at least at this stage, I try and make those things, things matter.
1261
01:14:21.000 --> 01:14:27.000
And then I try and be really open to everything else that the world is going to, you know,
1262
01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:34.000
the world's going to teach her and there's nothing wrong with also some of the great parts of the 90s still feeling like the 90s, right?
1263
01:14:34.000 --> 01:14:38.000
I think you still should be able to like express your thought with a pen and paper.
1264
01:14:38.000 --> 01:14:44.000
And if you cannot do that, like alone with your own thoughts with no distractions, with no phones, with no AI,
1265
01:14:44.000 --> 01:14:48.000
you will never be able to feed the right things into AI.
1266
01:14:48.000 --> 01:14:52.000
I have a bit of a loaded question for you, but you had such in your late 30s.
1267
01:14:53.000 --> 01:15:03.000
If you had had her late 20s, early 30s, do you think that would have drastically changed the for sure action for sure being.
1268
01:15:03.000 --> 01:15:06.000
And again, there's like a thousand ways to do motherhood.
1269
01:15:06.000 --> 01:15:09.000
I'm not judgmental of any of them.
1270
01:15:10.000 --> 01:15:15.000
My path was I will build like crazy.
1271
01:15:15.000 --> 01:15:18.000
I like will not rest.
1272
01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:25.000
I will be able to get on an airplane with a two hours notice and I got to have like an incredible career.
1273
01:15:25.000 --> 01:15:32.000
And I got to meet so many interesting people and have a lot of impact and deploy a lot of capital and help a lot of entrepreneurs build.
1274
01:15:33.000 --> 01:15:36.000
And I don't think I could have ever done that with a baby.
1275
01:15:36.000 --> 01:15:39.000
I would have had and there are founders that do.
1276
01:15:39.000 --> 01:15:42.000
But for me, I would have had constant guilt.
1277
01:15:42.000 --> 01:15:43.000
I would have missed this.
1278
01:15:43.000 --> 01:15:46.000
And so yeah, there are days when I'm like frankly tired.
1279
01:15:46.000 --> 01:15:53.000
We have a baby when you're 40 year like back hurts and there's things that I'm like, oh yeah, this is like really built for the 20 year old body.
1280
01:15:53.000 --> 01:16:01.000
Like there are there are moments like that where I can see, you know, how much easier that would have been if I would have done something younger.
1281
01:16:01.000 --> 01:16:04.000
So I just, I'm very non judgmental about your path.
1282
01:16:04.000 --> 01:16:10.000
I think about, you know, well, maybe I would have had a kid when I was 20 and then they could have grown up in the business with me.
1283
01:16:10.000 --> 01:16:14.000
And I would have, you know, got a later start, but we would have done it together.
1284
01:16:14.000 --> 01:16:16.000
There's there's tradeoffs in any scenarios.
1285
01:16:16.000 --> 01:16:19.000
There's remember a perfect time to have a kid.
1286
01:16:19.000 --> 01:16:23.000
But I think for me, I really loved the path I had.
1287
01:16:23.000 --> 01:16:25.000
I got to have an incredible career.
1288
01:16:25.000 --> 01:16:32.000
I get to continue that amazing career in a way that I can be really intentional and flexible about.
1289
01:16:32.000 --> 01:16:35.000
How different you are as a mom from like late 20s.
1290
01:16:35.000 --> 01:16:36.000
Oh, yeah.
1291
01:16:36.000 --> 01:16:43.000
Like I'm not, I'm not finding myself the same way that like I think I was finding myself when I was 20.
1292
01:16:43.000 --> 01:16:45.000
What you maybe would have like projected on to Sasha.
1293
01:16:45.000 --> 01:16:46.000
Yeah.
1294
01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:47.000
For sure.
1295
01:16:47.000 --> 01:16:48.000
For sure.
1296
01:16:48.000 --> 01:16:51.000
So I, like this one, I want to be really clear.
1297
01:16:51.000 --> 01:16:54.000
Like there is no perfect path on when to start having kids.
1298
01:16:54.000 --> 01:16:58.000
I think for me, this was like a great, this was perfect for me.
1299
01:16:58.000 --> 01:17:02.000
There's so much cultural noise around waiting too long.
1300
01:17:02.000 --> 01:17:04.000
Did you kind of ignore all that pressure?
1301
01:17:04.000 --> 01:17:13.000
You know, I froze my eggs because I was, I was really concerned about this because there's no and then I got pregnant naturally like incredibly fast.
1302
01:17:13.000 --> 01:17:19.000
And so there's also like, remember the internet is like designed to fear monger you.
1303
01:17:19.000 --> 01:17:20.000
Fear mongering sells things.
1304
01:17:20.000 --> 01:17:21.000
Yeah.
1305
01:17:21.000 --> 01:17:23.000
People are making a lot of money from the IVF industry.
1306
01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:25.000
And again, they have no problem with that.
1307
01:17:25.000 --> 01:17:28.000
There's also a million incredible babies that have been created with IVF.
1308
01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:29.000
It's incredible technology.
1309
01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:31.000
Just.
1310
01:17:31.000 --> 01:17:33.000
So, you know, I had a backup plan.
1311
01:17:33.000 --> 01:17:34.000
Yeah.
1312
01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:35.000
And, you know, then I didn't need to use it.
1313
01:17:35.000 --> 01:17:36.000
It's like insurance policy.
1314
01:17:36.000 --> 01:17:37.000
Exactly what it should be.
1315
01:17:37.000 --> 01:17:39.000
Usually like when you mitigate for risk.
1316
01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:41.000
Exactly.
1317
01:17:41.000 --> 01:17:42.000
When you mitigate for risk.
1318
01:17:42.000 --> 01:17:44.000
So I planned a lot of things.
1319
01:17:44.000 --> 01:17:49.000
And yeah, you're just like, you're so sure of yourself at this age.
1320
01:17:49.000 --> 01:17:50.000
Yeah.
1321
01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:51.000
Yeah.
1322
01:17:51.000 --> 01:17:54.000
I will say one other thing because I think I just really like being honest about this.
1323
01:17:54.000 --> 01:18:00.000
I think there were people I grew up with who were like, you know, I'm 20 years old and I just always wanted to be a mom.
1324
01:18:00.000 --> 01:18:01.000
And they like knew.
1325
01:18:01.000 --> 01:18:02.000
And they just knew.
1326
01:18:02.000 --> 01:18:06.000
And I don't think I, I don't think I was that person.
1327
01:18:06.000 --> 01:18:08.000
I'm like, I've had a great life.
1328
01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:12.000
I can have a great contribution of society without having children.
1329
01:18:12.000 --> 01:18:18.000
And now that I've had a baby, I would like 10 and a 10 recommend to a friend.
1330
01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:20.000
I feel like there is no bigger.
1331
01:18:20.000 --> 01:18:24.000
There is no bigger meaning every cliche you hear is true.
1332
01:18:24.000 --> 01:18:30.000
And maybe the best framing of this I've heard recently is like, it's so easy to see the lows.
1333
01:18:30.000 --> 01:18:35.000
I mean, you just need to sit next to a mother and their child on an airplane to be like, oh my god.
1334
01:18:35.000 --> 01:18:37.000
That seems so painful.
1335
01:18:37.000 --> 01:18:39.000
But it is possible to explain the highs.
1336
01:18:39.000 --> 01:18:41.000
And, and that is like really worth doing.
1337
01:18:41.000 --> 01:18:45.000
And I think in a world where I was like very on the fence with this decision.
1338
01:18:45.000 --> 01:18:49.000
And I see like so, like there's so many fewer people having kids.
1339
01:18:49.000 --> 01:18:52.000
Like, if you felt like me and you were like, I don't really know.
1340
01:18:52.000 --> 01:18:54.000
I just just do it.
1341
01:18:54.000 --> 01:18:59.000
And I wish I would have heard that from people because I heard kind of the opposite.
1342
01:18:59.000 --> 01:19:00.000
Like, you know, you don't know.
1343
01:19:00.000 --> 01:19:01.000
It's like fine either way.
1344
01:19:01.000 --> 01:19:03.000
And I think that we should never be pressuring.
1345
01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:07.000
Like people who should not exactly don't want this is not about pressure.
1346
01:19:07.000 --> 01:19:09.000
This is just about as someone who was on the fence.
1347
01:19:09.000 --> 01:19:10.000
Yeah.
1348
01:19:10.000 --> 01:19:11.000
It was a really wonderful experience.
1349
01:19:11.000 --> 01:19:12.000
And it's not over yet.
1350
01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:13.000
I'm just.
1351
01:19:13.000 --> 01:19:14.000
Yeah.
1352
01:19:14.000 --> 01:19:15.000
You're like, she's one and a half.
1353
01:19:15.000 --> 01:19:16.000
See how your back feels and.
1354
01:19:16.000 --> 01:19:17.000
Yeah.
1355
01:19:17.000 --> 01:19:18.000
Exactly.
1356
01:19:18.000 --> 01:19:19.000
She's like on the monkey bars.
1357
01:19:19.000 --> 01:19:20.000
It's like mom come up.
1358
01:19:20.000 --> 01:19:21.000
Yeah.
1359
01:19:21.000 --> 01:19:22.000
I know.
1360
01:19:22.000 --> 01:19:23.000
I know.
1361
01:19:23.000 --> 01:19:24.000
That's why I got to go to the gym.
1362
01:19:24.000 --> 01:19:25.000
Yeah.
1363
01:19:25.000 --> 01:19:26.000
I've got to keep up with her.
1364
01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:27.000
Do we want to move to some rapid fire?
1365
01:19:27.000 --> 01:19:28.000
Okay.
1366
01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:29.000
Okay.
1367
01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:35.000
If you were starting a business today in Canada with zero name recognition, what would
1368
01:19:35.000 --> 01:19:36.000
you build?
1369
01:19:36.000 --> 01:19:39.000
I would start looking at really unsexy spaces.
1370
01:19:39.000 --> 01:19:40.000
Okay.
1371
01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:44.000
And I would start asking, you know, everyone from their first half of the list to the CEO,
1372
01:19:44.000 --> 01:19:45.000
how they run their business.
1373
01:19:45.000 --> 01:19:50.000
And I would start thinking if I was to build this with none of these limitations, how would
1374
01:19:50.000 --> 01:19:51.000
I do that?
1375
01:19:51.000 --> 01:19:54.000
You mentioned you have some crazy stories about getting people out of sticky situations.
1376
01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:57.000
What do people call Michelle for help or advice on?
1377
01:19:57.000 --> 01:20:01.000
I don't think you understand the amount of trouble you're getting.
1378
01:20:01.000 --> 01:20:04.000
Like things are constantly breaking.
1379
01:20:04.000 --> 01:20:11.000
And every messy situation you can imagine that comes with employees.
1380
01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:16.000
I mean, employees are people like all other, they do absolutely stupid things in the moment.
1381
01:20:16.000 --> 01:20:19.000
And it is now your job because they were your employees.
1382
01:20:19.000 --> 01:20:23.000
You know, there's, there's questions about what to do when you have a competitor chasing
1383
01:20:24.000 --> 01:20:29.000
you and how do you be, you know, offensive, defensive, how to play things out.
1384
01:20:29.000 --> 01:20:35.000
There is, you know, very big government decision that happens in some sectors that requires
1385
01:20:35.000 --> 01:20:38.000
a lot of lobbying and all sorts of things.
1386
01:20:38.000 --> 01:20:43.000
I mean, I have, I think you have to be aware that when you're a founder, this is going to be
1387
01:20:43.000 --> 01:20:45.000
a really, no day is going to feel the same.
1388
01:20:45.000 --> 01:20:51.000
And the challenges are astronomical and they come at you so fast and they're so large
1389
01:20:51.000 --> 01:20:53.000
and they're, there are many of them that are existential.
1390
01:20:53.000 --> 01:20:56.000
If you do not solve them, you will not have a business.
1391
01:20:56.000 --> 01:21:02.000
And so, you know, I think that's why founders have a co will just, you know, like call the
1392
01:21:02.000 --> 01:21:04.000
bat line and they're like, what do I do?
1393
01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:05.000
This is really not good.
1394
01:21:05.000 --> 01:21:06.000
You've faced this before.
1395
01:21:06.000 --> 01:21:13.000
And that's really, really important to remember that every company that you admire went
1396
01:21:13.000 --> 01:21:15.000
through almost the identical things.
1397
01:21:15.000 --> 01:21:19.000
What would you tell your younger self to stop or start doing?
1398
01:21:19.000 --> 01:21:24.000
I think it was, you know, you just, you cannot be afraid of embarrassment.
1399
01:21:24.000 --> 01:21:26.000
So most people like can't be afraid of failure.
1400
01:21:26.000 --> 01:21:29.000
But like failure is like so, like it's so like sugarcoat.
1401
01:21:29.000 --> 01:21:30.000
It's really embarrassment.
1402
01:21:30.000 --> 01:21:31.000
Yeah.
1403
01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:33.000
It's like you're going to look really dumb.
1404
01:21:33.000 --> 01:21:34.000
And this is not going to work.
1405
01:21:34.000 --> 01:21:41.000
And you're going to like not have credibility and you're going to not have your influence.
1406
01:21:41.000 --> 01:21:44.000
And like people have to get over that.
1407
01:21:44.000 --> 01:21:48.000
And the faster I got over that and the more I was willing to take rest, the better I did.
1408
01:21:49.000 --> 01:21:50.000
Okay.
1409
01:21:50.000 --> 01:21:52.000
Well, this is even on my list.
1410
01:21:52.000 --> 01:21:54.000
But what was the spilling story?
1411
01:21:54.000 --> 01:21:55.000
Oh, the spilling story.
1412
01:21:55.000 --> 01:21:56.000
Okay.
1413
01:21:56.000 --> 01:21:57.000
This is great.
1414
01:21:57.000 --> 01:22:02.000
So we were drinking these water glasses and I was like, oh, no, I'm like actually quite like clumsy.
1415
01:22:02.000 --> 01:22:05.000
And then day to day experience.
1416
01:22:05.000 --> 01:22:06.000
We built this caviar business.
1417
01:22:06.000 --> 01:22:08.000
Now we're in this huge recession.
1418
01:22:08.000 --> 01:22:16.000
And I have one business, business school teacher that like really believes in anecdotally.
1419
01:22:16.000 --> 01:22:19.000
And she's taken us out for dinner at this like super fancy restaurant.
1420
01:22:19.000 --> 01:22:21.000
We were like not eating fancy food at this point.
1421
01:22:21.000 --> 01:22:23.000
We have, we have like truly no money.
1422
01:22:23.000 --> 01:22:25.000
And she's like so nice.
1423
01:22:25.000 --> 01:22:27.000
And she's like, oh, we should get a bottle of wine.
1424
01:22:27.000 --> 01:22:30.000
And I'm always like talking with my hands.
1425
01:22:30.000 --> 01:22:33.000
And at this point in time, like the business is failing.
1426
01:22:33.000 --> 01:22:34.000
We're running out of money.
1427
01:22:34.000 --> 01:22:36.000
And she like throws us this lifeline.
1428
01:22:36.000 --> 01:22:42.000
She's like, I can pay you guys $15,000 to write a queen's business school case about Avondale Caviar.
1429
01:22:42.000 --> 01:22:45.000
That is actually still taught in like so many entrepreneurship program.
1430
01:22:45.000 --> 01:22:46.000
So they pay it.
1431
01:22:46.000 --> 01:22:47.000
It's like, this is astronauts.
1432
01:22:47.000 --> 01:22:49.000
She pays $15,000 to like, write a case.
1433
01:22:49.000 --> 01:22:55.000
This is like $15,000 at the time felt like someone had just given me like a $250,000 checkup.
1434
01:22:55.000 --> 01:22:56.000
But this is amazing.
1435
01:22:56.000 --> 01:23:00.000
And so she's agreed to do this for writing this case.
1436
01:23:00.000 --> 01:23:01.000
She's like, taking us out for dinner.
1437
01:23:01.000 --> 01:23:04.000
And she gets this red wine and I'm talking with my hands.
1438
01:23:04.000 --> 01:23:08.000
And I swear to God, I somehow lifted the wine up.
1439
01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:13.000
She's wearing this perfectly pressed beautiful designer white shirt.
1440
01:23:13.000 --> 01:23:21.000
The wine literally doesn't touch any other felt just pours over her head onto everywhere on the white shirt.
1441
01:23:21.000 --> 01:23:25.000
The wine is dripping off the tip of her nose.
1442
01:23:25.000 --> 01:23:29.000
And I'm like, the only lifeline I have.
1443
01:23:29.000 --> 01:23:32.000
I spilled all of my wine.
1444
01:23:32.000 --> 01:23:33.000
Not just red wine.
1445
01:23:33.000 --> 01:23:35.000
The shirt is completely destroyed.
1446
01:23:35.000 --> 01:23:36.000
The server comes over.
1447
01:23:36.000 --> 01:23:38.000
She's like, can I give you a tie to go pet?
1448
01:23:38.000 --> 01:23:39.000
I was like, tie your go.
1449
01:23:39.000 --> 01:23:40.000
That's not enough.
1450
01:23:40.000 --> 01:23:41.000
Look at me.
1451
01:23:41.000 --> 01:23:42.000
I need four.
1452
01:23:42.000 --> 01:23:43.000
I need half a day.
1453
01:23:43.000 --> 01:23:45.000
Like, what is happening here?
1454
01:23:45.000 --> 01:23:46.000
That is really funny.
1455
01:23:46.000 --> 01:23:47.000
So please tell me.
1456
01:23:47.000 --> 01:23:49.000
She's still got the life of a case study.
1457
01:23:49.000 --> 01:23:50.000
Yes.
1458
01:23:50.000 --> 01:23:51.000
Oh, yeah.
1459
01:23:51.000 --> 01:23:52.000
She's the best.
1460
01:23:52.000 --> 01:23:53.000
Elson Thorey is amazing.
1461
01:23:53.000 --> 01:23:54.000
She of course gave us the life line.
1462
01:23:54.000 --> 01:23:56.000
She told us like so politely that she cleaned the shirt.
1463
01:23:56.000 --> 01:23:57.000
She told us years later.
1464
01:23:57.000 --> 01:23:59.000
It had to be thrown out immediately.
1465
01:23:59.000 --> 01:24:02.000
Did you end up sending her a new shirt?
1466
01:24:02.000 --> 01:24:03.000
Yeah.
1467
01:24:03.000 --> 01:24:04.000
I should send her a new shirt today.
1468
01:24:04.000 --> 01:24:05.000
Yeah.
1469
01:24:05.000 --> 01:24:07.000
And be like, thank you all always remember that.
1470
01:24:07.000 --> 01:24:08.000
Yeah.
1471
01:24:08.000 --> 01:24:09.000
I empathize because I'm also a huge clots.
1472
01:24:09.000 --> 01:24:11.000
And right before you got here, I knocked this entire drink.
1473
01:24:11.000 --> 01:24:12.000
Thank you.
1474
01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:13.000
It was water.
1475
01:24:13.000 --> 01:24:14.000
Of course.
1476
01:24:14.000 --> 01:24:15.000
And red wine.
1477
01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:16.000
But red wine.
1478
01:24:16.000 --> 01:24:17.000
So I was on a date.
1479
01:24:17.000 --> 01:24:18.000
Yeah.
1480
01:24:18.000 --> 01:24:19.000
If he hears this, he's going to know.
1481
01:24:19.000 --> 01:24:21.000
I was wearing a vintage Faragamo white shirt at a restaurant.
1482
01:24:21.000 --> 01:24:23.000
It's always when you're wearing a white shirt.
1483
01:24:23.000 --> 01:24:24.000
Always.
1484
01:24:24.000 --> 01:24:27.000
And it was like a, it was actually a bowl of pasta with like, um,
1485
01:24:27.000 --> 01:24:29.000
what was like meat, what's the meat sauce called?
1486
01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:32.000
So I like hit my fork.
1487
01:24:32.000 --> 01:24:34.000
It like exploded all our high chest.
1488
01:24:34.000 --> 01:24:38.000
I then had a glass water bottle right behind my head.
1489
01:24:38.000 --> 01:24:40.000
I knocked my head back because I was so shocked.
1490
01:24:40.000 --> 01:24:42.000
It falls off the ledge.
1491
01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:44.000
Shatters into a million pieces.
1492
01:24:44.000 --> 01:24:45.000
He is shocked.
1493
01:24:45.000 --> 01:24:48.000
The other two tables are like, I hope this is in a first date.
1494
01:24:48.000 --> 01:24:50.000
I'm like, I'm never getting a second date with this guy.
1495
01:24:50.000 --> 01:24:54.000
And it was, we had to tip so hard because I'm sure everything
1496
01:24:54.000 --> 01:24:55.000
that I'm doing.
1497
01:24:55.000 --> 01:24:56.000
No, it was embarrassing.
1498
01:24:56.000 --> 01:24:58.000
But like, so many stories.
1499
01:24:58.000 --> 01:24:59.000
You see there.
1500
01:24:59.000 --> 01:25:00.000
And you know what?
1501
01:25:00.000 --> 01:25:01.000
I was mortified.
1502
01:25:01.000 --> 01:25:02.000
I know.
1503
01:25:02.000 --> 01:25:04.000
But then it's like, what's the worst that can happen?
1504
01:25:04.000 --> 01:25:07.000
You have food all over your clothes and you're going to like walk out.
1505
01:25:07.000 --> 01:25:11.000
The other thing to remember is like, nobody is noticing how these things.
1506
01:25:11.000 --> 01:25:12.000
Right.
1507
01:25:12.000 --> 01:25:13.000
So like, that's like a funny story.
1508
01:25:13.000 --> 01:25:14.000
Whatever that happens.
1509
01:25:14.000 --> 01:25:17.000
Then you're going to go, you're like, do I want to go home and change?
1510
01:25:17.000 --> 01:25:19.000
Or do I just want to like, live the rest of your life?
1511
01:25:19.000 --> 01:25:20.000
Yeah.
1512
01:25:20.000 --> 01:25:21.000
No one is really going to notice.
1513
01:25:21.000 --> 01:25:22.000
Yeah.
1514
01:25:22.000 --> 01:25:23.000
People are so busy.
1515
01:25:23.000 --> 01:25:24.000
Yeah.
1516
01:25:24.000 --> 01:25:25.000
They're not always in the moment.
1517
01:25:25.000 --> 01:25:27.000
And so if you want to be like magnetic, just like, stay present.
1518
01:25:27.000 --> 01:25:29.000
Just force yourself to be 20% more present because everyone's worried about looking good and
1519
01:25:29.000 --> 01:25:30.000
looking smartly.
1520
01:25:30.000 --> 01:25:31.000
No one is noticing.
1521
01:25:31.000 --> 01:25:32.000
Yeah.
1522
01:25:32.000 --> 01:25:33.000
Good advice.
1523
01:25:33.000 --> 01:25:36.000
A Canadian founder who's dramatically underrated right now.
1524
01:25:36.000 --> 01:25:38.000
If there's any that come to mind.
1525
01:25:38.000 --> 01:25:40.000
I mean, I love Martin Varsia passage.
1526
01:25:40.000 --> 01:25:42.000
Like, he built a Udacorn.
1527
01:25:42.000 --> 01:25:43.000
I'll write it down.
1528
01:25:43.000 --> 01:25:44.000
I'll write it down.
1529
01:25:44.000 --> 01:25:45.000
I'll write it down.
1530
01:25:45.000 --> 01:25:46.000
I'll write it down.
1531
01:25:46.000 --> 01:25:47.000
I'll write it down.
1532
01:25:47.000 --> 01:25:48.000
I'll write it down.
1533
01:25:48.000 --> 01:25:49.000
I'll write it down.
1534
01:25:49.000 --> 01:25:50.000
I'll write it down.
1535
01:25:50.000 --> 01:25:51.000
I'll write it down.
1536
01:25:51.000 --> 01:25:52.000
I'll write it down.
1537
01:25:52.000 --> 01:25:53.000
I'll write it down.
1538
01:25:53.000 --> 01:25:54.000
It's a Udacorn already.
1539
01:25:54.000 --> 01:25:57.000
He's like on his way with another one.
1540
01:25:57.000 --> 01:25:59.000
Like, he's, he's amazing.
1541
01:25:59.000 --> 01:26:02.160
I, you know, he's like from Iran.
1542
01:26:02.160 --> 01:26:04.200
He speaks with a really strong accent.
1543
01:26:04.200 --> 01:26:09.080
He, like, is the most high energy, awesome guy ever.
1544
01:26:09.080 --> 01:26:11.580
Like you just want those people to win.
1545
01:26:11.580 --> 01:26:12.580
Yeah.
1546
01:26:12.580 --> 01:26:13.580
He's winning.
1547
01:26:13.580 --> 01:26:14.580
You just want it.
1548
01:26:14.580 --> 01:26:15.580
You want them to win.
1549
01:26:15.580 --> 01:26:16.580
Yeah.
1550
01:26:16.580 --> 01:26:18.520
And we should be a country that continues to share those people on.
1551
01:26:18.520 --> 01:26:24.440
Closing question to you, is there anything else that you want to leave our listeners
1552
01:26:24.440 --> 01:26:29.080
with before we wrap up final words of wisdom?
1553
01:26:29.080 --> 01:26:32.840
Just like, don't be too scared to try.
1554
01:26:32.840 --> 01:26:33.840
Yeah.
1555
01:26:33.840 --> 01:26:35.920
Like the Wild West just opened up.
1556
01:26:35.920 --> 01:26:39.280
They give how crazy it was when you're sitting there in Europe and you're like, they're
1557
01:26:39.280 --> 01:26:43.480
just giving away like a hundred acres of land, like come build it.
1558
01:26:43.480 --> 01:26:44.480
Yeah.
1559
01:26:44.480 --> 01:26:45.480
That is what this is.
1560
01:26:45.480 --> 01:26:46.480
Yeah.
1561
01:26:46.480 --> 01:26:47.480
It's actually a green algae.
1562
01:26:47.480 --> 01:26:53.840
They're just, they just gifted you the ability to have like 20 analysts.
1563
01:26:53.840 --> 01:26:54.840
Yeah.
1564
01:26:54.840 --> 01:27:00.120
You used to have to work for 20 years in a company to ask people to ask other people to do
1565
01:27:00.120 --> 01:27:01.120
things for you.
1566
01:27:01.120 --> 01:27:02.120
Yeah.
1567
01:27:02.120 --> 01:27:06.320
And now you get to ask this machine that gets to read every book that is somehow like
1568
01:27:06.320 --> 01:27:11.000
sometimes an idiot and sometimes it takes to do work for you and all have to figure
1569
01:27:11.000 --> 01:27:12.160
out is what to build.
1570
01:27:12.160 --> 01:27:13.160
Yeah.
1571
01:27:13.240 --> 01:27:18.040
If you take that framework, I mean, the future belongs to you.
1572
01:27:18.040 --> 01:27:22.520
And you know, just constantly look for problems and just try and solve them.
1573
01:27:22.520 --> 01:27:23.520
Yeah.
1574
01:27:23.520 --> 01:27:25.280
I think it's going to do it for you.
1575
01:27:25.280 --> 01:27:26.280
Awesome.
1576
01:27:26.280 --> 01:27:28.080
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.
1577
01:27:28.080 --> 01:27:29.080
You're having me.
1578
01:27:29.080 --> 01:27:32.920
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Between Two Bernads.
1579
01:27:32.920 --> 01:27:37.480
If you enjoy the show, please hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to our podcast.
1580
01:27:37.480 --> 01:27:40.520
We love to hear your feedback and do our best to get back to everyone.
1581
01:27:40.520 --> 01:27:44.840
So feel free to leave your comments or reach out to us on any of our socials.
1582
01:27:44.840 --> 01:27:45.440
See you next time.