America's Anthem | 7

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Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American History Tellers
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early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible
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app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. Imagine it's April.
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3rd, 1968.
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It's just before 9 p.m. in the Bishop Charles Mason
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Temple in Memphis, Tennessee. The weather outside is unforgiving. But
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the heavy rain hasn't stopped the crowd. Thousands of citizens, students,
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local ministers, and protesters are packed wall to wall inside
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the temple. These folks have gathered in support of Local 1733,
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the Memphis Sanitation Workers Union. A couple months back, in February,
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the sanitation workers went on strike after two of their
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men were killed on the job. They want better pay,
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better working conditions, and better treatment. They want dignity. As
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the thunder claps and lightning strikes, tornado sirens begin to keen.
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But the crowd doesn't leave. They sing and clap and
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raise their hands to the sky. A young man and
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his wife stand at the back of the gallery, waiting
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for the guest of honor to arrive. A guest who
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has marched with the sanitation workers and championed their cause.
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What's taking him so long?
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I don't know.
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Abernathy promised he'd be here. Well, then he will. But
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what if he doesn't show? He stood with us so far.
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He's not going to abandon us now. You can hardly
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blame him after what happened. A few days back, peaceful
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march in Memphis turned to chaos. Downtown shops were looted,
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marchers were clubbed and tear gassed, and worst of all,
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a 16-year-old boy was killed. Yeah, but the workers didn't
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start the violence.
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I know.
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It was the black power crowd, not us. That doesn't
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make it any safer for him to be here. I
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wouldn't blame him if he never came back to Memphis again.
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And just then, the door at the back of the
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gallery opens. A man enters the hall, his raincoat drenched,
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his hair wet from the storm. Seeing him, the crowd erupts.
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The sanitation worker and his wife watch in awe as
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the man makes his way down the center aisle. Ralph Abernathy,
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a minister and civil rights activist, greets him at the
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front of the room. Abernathy takes the podium, makes a
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few remarks, and then introduces the guest of honor, man
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everyone in the temple has been waiting to see, Dr.
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Martin Luther King.
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Listen to Business Wars on Audible or wherever you get
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your podcasts.
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I'm Lauren Malloy, the host of the podcast, My Mom's Murder.
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For 30 years, I thought my mom died of natural causes.
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That's what everyone told me. That's what I believed. Until
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one day, I got a phone call that changed everything.
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A woman claiming to be my mom's best friend told
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me my mother was murdered and that no one had
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ever investigated it. So I did what the detectives wouldn't,
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pulled the threads, knocked on doors, and confronted the contradictions.
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And what I found, it's worse than I imagined. Something
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happened to my mom. Someone killed her. And I won't
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stop until I find out who. The system may have
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given up on my mom, but I never will. Listen
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to My Mom's Murder wherever you get your podcasts. Audible
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subscribers can binge all 10 episodes early and ad-free right now.
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Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on
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Apple Podcasts.
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From Wondering, I'm Lindsey Graham, and this is American History Tellers.
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Our history, your story. American History Tellers On April 3rd, 1968,
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51 years ago to the day, local sanitation workers, students,
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and ministers, some 2,000 in all, braved the storm and
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crowded into the Mason Temple in Memphis, Tennessee to hear Dr.
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King speak. That night, as the thunder rolled and the
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rain poured down outside, Dr. King preached about the strike.
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He recounted past victories in Montgomery, Selma, and Washington. The
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crowd was moved to tears as he quoted the Bible
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and told the story of the Good Samaritan. But there
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was something else on Dr. King's mind that night.
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Violence.
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King, no stranger to living under threat, talked about the
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time he had been stabbed by a mentally ill woman,
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and the time his plane had to be checked for
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bombs and explosives. The final lines of what is now
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known as the Mountaintop Speech, the last speech King would
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ever make, are foreboding. I don't know what will happen now.
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We've got some difficult days ahead. But it really doesn't
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matter now. Because I've been to the mountaintop, and.
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I don't mind.
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Like anybody, I would like to live a long life.
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Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now.
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I just want to do God's will. And He's allowed
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me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over,
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and I've seen the promised land. I may not get
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there with you, but I want you to know tonight
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that we, as a people, will get to the promised land.
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And so I'm happy tonight. I'm not worried about anything.
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I'm not fearing any man. Mine eyes have seen the
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glory of the coming of the Lord. The next day,
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while standing on the balcony of the Lorraine Hotel in Memphis, Dr.
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King was shot and killed by a small-time criminal and
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confirmed racist named James Earl Ray. Dr. King's impact on
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the civil rights movement and the impact of his murder
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on the country is beyond measure. Though James Earl Ray's
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horrific act of violence stole an American hero long before
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his time, Dr. King's message of equality, justice, and nonviolence
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could never be erased by the bull of an assassin. Instead,
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his heroism and dedication to the cause of equality live on.
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Today on this special episode of American History Tellers, we're
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going to talk about that last line of Dr. King's speech,
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Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of
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the Lord. It's the opening line of a poem written
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by Julie Ward Howe in 1862 called The Battle Hymn
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of the Republic. The poem and song is everywhere in
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American life, sung at public schools and presidential inaugurations. It's
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the unofficial anthem for causes from the Civil Rights Movement
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to abolition to the Cold War and even the Spanish-American War.
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It's also the subject of a new book called A
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Fiery Gospel, The Battle Hymn of the Republic and the
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Road to Righteous War by Richard Gamble, a professor of
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history at Hillsdale College in Missouri. Gamble has spent the
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last six years researching the origin of the song, its writer,
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her influences, and how it's been used and reused throughout
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American history. Richard Gamble joined me to talk about his book,
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The Hymn and Its Place in History. Here's our conversation. Dr. Gamble,
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thank you for coming on the show.
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Thank you, Lindsay. It's a pleasure to be with you.
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So let's start with the writer of the poem or song,
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Julie Ward Howe. She was from Massachusetts, and the lyrics
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are from a poem she published in 1862, right in
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the midst of the Civil War. What do we know
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about her as a woman and as a writer?
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Sure.
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And it's the most natural thing in the world to
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associate her with Massachusetts, especially with the city of Boston.
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She knew the cultural world there, the literary world, the
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transcendentalist philosophers there in New England. But she was actually
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born 200 years ago in New York City. She's a
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New Yorker. Her father was a very prominent banker. And
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she grew up in a world of privilege, culture, wealth,
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a connected world with all kinds of famous people. And
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she had the very best education at home. Her father
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provided private tutors for her. She knew German. She knew French.
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She was publishing. By the time she was 16, 17
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years old, she was writing essays and reviews. in which
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she did her own translations from the French, from the German.
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She's a very impressive and accomplished young woman, and eventually
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made her way to Boston when she married a prominent
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reformer named Samuel Gridley Howe, and that's where she spent
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the rest of her life after.
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The early 1840s.
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But the Battle Hymn was written on a trip to Washington, D.C.
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In 1861.
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What was the What was the purpose of the trip
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and what did she see there?
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She had desired to see the front lines of the
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war for herself. The war had been underway for several
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months by that point. Fighting had been underway for several months.
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She was closely associated with the war governor of Massachusetts.
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Her husband was involved as part of a relief agency
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under the administration for the North. And she was very
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curious to see the soldiers for herself in the front lines.
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So she and a group of friends traveled to Washington, D.C.
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in the middle of November 1861. It was a long
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trip in those days, a long train trip. It took
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the better part of three or four days to get
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from Boston to D.C. And she spent a little more
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time in Washington, D.C. than a week there and toured
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the battlefields, toured hospitals, toured the Capitol building, and the
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dome of the Capitol building was under construction at that point.
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And it was on one of these excursions out to
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Northern Virginia, crossing the Potomac, When she encountered Union soldiers there,
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and in fact got caught up in a bit of
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a skirmish with Confederate soldiers, it was at that point
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that she experienced the war most directly, was inspired by
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these young men in uniform, got to talk with them.
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She was a bit shy in public, but she spoke
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to them. They sang songs together as she was traveling
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in her carriage and the soldiers marching alongside. And according
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to a story that she liked to tell, it was
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her own minister, a man named James Freeman Clark from Boston,
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who was in the carriage with her, who said to
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her when the soldiers were singing the John Brown song,
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he said, you know, somebody should write better lyrics to
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that tune. I don't know if it exactly happened that way,
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but that's the way she told the story. And she
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went back to her hotel that night. She went to
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sleep and she woke up early the next morning with
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the rhythm of the John Brown song. That's the tune
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we still know for the Battle Hymn of the Republic.
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The rhythm of it, the cadences of it were in
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her mind early that morning before it was even light.
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She got out of bed. grabbed a piece of paper.
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She said that the kind of paper you can find
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in a hotel room. And she got a stub of
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a pencil and began writing out the lines of this poem,
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which had no name at this point. Started writing out
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the lines of this poem before she forgot them. And
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before she knew it, she had several stanzas of what
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would become her battle hymn.
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So it was published as a poem then, later the
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next year. Was it always meant to be a song?
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That's an excellent question, because what gets overlooked is the
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familiar refrain, glory, glory, hallelujah, is not part of the
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poem anywhere. When it was first published in the Atlantic
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Monthly magazine, one of the most important abolitionist periodicals in America,
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it was published there in their February 1861 issue. But
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it actually appeared in public a few weeks earlier than
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it appeared in newspapers across the country starting in January
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of 1861 with due credit given to the Atlantic Monthly.
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And when it appeared in print, the five stanzas were there,
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but as I mentioned, not the words, not the glory, glory,
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hallelujah refrain. But it seems that people realized immediately that
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the rhythm of her poem was would fit the John
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Brown song, especially since she has the phrase at the
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end of each stanza, some variation on the phrase, his
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truth is marching on, his day is marching on. And
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I imagine that countless people in the North realized immediately
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that this could be sung to the John Brown tune.
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And very shortly, music publishers in Boston started bringing out
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sheet music editions of this, which included the Glory, Hallelujah refrain.
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Well, let's talk a little bit about the music industry
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in 1862. Sheet music is the currency in which popular
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music happened at all. How did the average American consume
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popular music in the middle of the Civil War?
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An awful lot of Americans sang in their homes and
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in their churches. And in community celebrations, patriotic celebrations, school celebrations,
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this was a time when music had to be made
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in the home, family by family, community by community. And
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the battle hymn very quickly appeared in hymn books for churches.
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It appeared in evangelical revival songbooks. It appeared in songbooks
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for soldiers in their encampments. It appeared in soldiers' magazines, newspapers.
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So it was taken up fairly quickly. In fact, I
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think the battle hymn was more popular during the war
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than Julia Ward Howe even knew. She didn't have the internet.
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She didn't have a Google alert set to let her
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know when somebody quoted the battle hymn of the Republic.
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It was only later in her career as a public
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speaker that she would hire a clipping service, an old-fashioned
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newspaper clipping service, to send her reports that included, stories
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that included the Battle Hymn of the Republic. And with
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our technology today, with things like newspapers.com and the New
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York Times digital database, we have a way to know
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how widely distributed her poem was in public. songbooks, in newspapers,
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in magazines, far beyond what the poet herself was able
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to know. She was always very modest about its early success.
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She said she didn't have much hopes for it. But
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I think far more Americans knew this song and sang
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it as a battle anthem than she was aware of
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for many, many years.
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Well, let's get into the content of the poem itself.
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I'm sure most of us know it pretty well, but
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here's the most famous first verse. Mine eyes have seen
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the glory of the coming of the Lord. He has
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trampled out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored.
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He hath loosed the fateful lightning of his terrible swift sword.
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His truth is marching on. So let's just do some
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deconstruction of this. What is she talking about here?
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Yes, I'd be happy to. That's about my favorite thing
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to do, this kind of close analysis. I think what
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readers and your listeners in the modern world are less
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likely to notice about this song is how many allusions
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to the Bible it has, how many Old Testament references,
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New Testament references. It draws from the prophet Isaiah. It
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draws from the Apocalypse of St. John, the Book of Revelation. Now,
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certainly many people today are very familiar with that and
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would pick up on the metaphors and the word pictures
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she's playing with here. But I don't think we are
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as likely to notice that as an audience in 1862.
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A largely biblically literate public people who memorized large sections
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of the Bible and would know exactly what she was
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doing here. But in that first verse you just quoted,
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it even uses archaic language that sounds like the old
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King James Version of the Bible or sometimes called the
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Authorized Version of the Bible. It's mine eyes have seen
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the glory. But then we come to those really evocative words,
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the glory of the coming of the Lord. That is
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biblical language of judgment, of divine judgment, Old Testament and
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New Testament. Christians would have read this poem, sung this poem,
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and known that Julia Ward Howe was writing in some sense,
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whether literally or not, she was writing in some sense
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about the coming of God in judgment. So with the
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very first line, We have a poet interpreting the American
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Civil War in the most exalted or the most epic terms.
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That what is happening there on the battlefields of Virginia
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is somehow connected with God's judgment in history. And then
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that second line, trampling out the vintage where the grapes
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of wrath are stored. That might be unfamiliar to our ear,
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but that shows up in the prophet Isaiah, and it
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is repeated in the book of Revelation. That is another
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vivid image of divine justice. It is God himself who
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is trampling out those grapes and producing that wine, that vintage,
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it says, of his wrath. And then we have fateful lightning,
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and then we have a terrible swift sword. This is stunning.
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Stunning language that is meant to, as I said, to
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put the Civil War in the most dramatic of terms.
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You stepped out for your morning jog. Except it's not
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your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic
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sci-fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run
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a half marathon. You lost track of how far you've run,
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somewhere just past the city limits. You can't stop. You
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have to find out what happens next. Then it's over.
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The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like
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you have no idea where you are. Audible. Stories that
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speak to you.
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binge all episodes of American Scandal early and ad-free right now.
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Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on
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Apple Podcasts. The opening stanza immediately cements Howe's intent to
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make this poem a hymn. But when do we get
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into the politics of the age? When do we learn
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what the battle is about?
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Certainly, it's a very good question. As you move through
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the five stanzas, she originally wrote six stanzas, but she
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wanted only five printed and published. As you move through,
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we encounter images that are more particular to this war.
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The second stanza speaks of watch fires, the circling camps,
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the soldiers being in the dews and damps, the dim
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and flaring lamps, all of this. The third stanza goes
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on to speak of a fiery gospel as reflected as
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glinting in the burnished rows of steel. So we have
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this much clearer battle imagery of actual soldiers. and in
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their encampments. It moves from there into language that continues
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to repeat, to revisit this theme of redemption. It is
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very much a redemptive song. It makes a connection back
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to Jesus and the promise of deliverance in the gospel
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that's happening in the third stanza there. As ye deal
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with my contemners, this is God the Father speaking here,
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the Lord speaking. As ye deal with my contemners, so
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with you my grace shall deal. Let the hero born
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of woman crush the serpent with his heel. And that
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takes us all the way back to the early chapters
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of Genesis with the curse on Adam and Eve and
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the serpent. And the serpent is told that he will
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be crushed by the heel of the messiah. So she
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has so much happening at once in this poem. And
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if I could also mention what is not in this poem,
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I think that's also as important and one of the
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reasons why this poem turned out to be so durable.
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And I may be anticipating where you're going to go
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in future questions, and forgive me if I'm doing that.
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But This poem never uses the word civil war, word
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civil war. It never says the North. It never says
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the South. Surprisingly, it never says slavery. So that's part
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of its ability to be repeated in generations ahead and
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to be applied to other circumstances. But as someone once
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said about this poem, Julia Ward Howe meant every word.
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She is portraying the Civil War as an apocalyptic event.
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She was an abolitionist, and certainly that informed her, the
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moral fury perhaps behind this poem.
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That's right.
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Can you characterize her view on abolitionism and her politics
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of the day?
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Yes.
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She was an early abolitionist, outspoken. She and her husband,
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Samuel Gridley Howe, for a couple of years in the 1850s,
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were actually editors of an abolitionist newspaper in Boston. She
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was responsible for the literary, cultural arts side of that newspaper.
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And she wrote about slavery, about abolition. She wrote essays
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for the Atlantic Monthly. She wrote One of the things
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I discovered in the course of this project is that
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she was the author of some anonymous essays for the
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New York Tribune, published right before the Civil War. And
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she took some pretty bold stands against slavery and promoted
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the Union cause in the war. In fact, one of
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those articles that she published anonymously appeared just a couple
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of weeks before she traveled to D.C., was inspired to
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write her poem. So we have what I think, if
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I can speak immodestly for a moment, I think I'm
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providing now an unprecedented ability to reconstruct her world immediately
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surrounding this poem. She opposed slavery. She opposed the extension
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of slavery. She looked forward to the day when slavery
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would end in the United States. She actually had a
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global vision of when all kinds of oppression would end
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and people of all sorts would be emancipated. She was
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active in the women's rights movement. She was not always
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as enlightened as we might wish when it came to
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questions of race. She said some very controversial things about
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the capacity of freed slaves for self-government, believing it would
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take a very long time. But a unifying theme of
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her life for many, many decades, I would say, is
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the theme of emancipation. Emancipation from all kinds of restrictions
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in politics, in society, in economics. She saw herself as
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a spokesperson for sweeping emancipation.
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So this is the genesis, then, of the poem, the song.
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Yes.
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A moral impetus in the midst of America's perhaps most
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moral war. But the song in its rallying cry endures
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well past the Civil War. Even in Howe's own lifetime,
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she sees the resurrection of her song in another conflict.
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Absolutely. It's a fascinating part of the story. And then
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we start bringing more characters into the story because her daughters,
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all of her daughters had one degree or another of
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literary career. Some of them wrote extensively as adults. And
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they become part of this story because they reflected on
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the significance of the battle hymn for the Spanish-American War.
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They wrote essays about it and about why it was
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being sung again during the Spanish-American War. If you look
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at newspapers from April 1898, Just as Congress is about
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to declare war, McKinley addresses Congress, Congress is debating the
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war declaration, newspapers across America start publishing the Battle Hymn
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of the Republic, often on the first page of their newspapers,
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without comment, as if it's obvious, as if it's self-evident
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that America would start singing the Battle Hymn again. They
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don't comment on it. I have to speculate, but it
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seems to me that they saw it, editors of newspapers, politicians,
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saw it as a natural fit that America was now
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embarking on its next crusade. A crusade, a humanitarian crusade,
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a crusade to liberate Cuba from Spanish misrule, they would
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have said, to they don't know it yet, but the U.S.
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is going to end up in possession of the Philippine Islands.
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So For those who sang the battle hymn, interpreted, applied
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the battle hymn as a broad anthem for humanitarian causes,
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and it certainly had become that, it was natural for
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them to apply it to this new war. It was
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sung everywhere. More sheet music was printed that featured pictures
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of the Spanish-American War on the cover. and circulated the
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Battle Hymn of the Republic for a new war. And
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we even have the example of Mark Twain in a
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letter he wrote to his friend. He didn't publish this
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at the time, but in a letter he wrote to
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a friend, he quickly sketched out a parody of the
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Battle Hymn of the Republic. And he said that it
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was the Battle Hymn of the Republic brought down to
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date instead of brought up to date. And I don't
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have much of it memorized, but he just excoriated America's
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thirst for empire and wrote this bitter satire of the
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hymn as his depiction of the real causes, the real
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base material causes of the Spanish-American War. But it doesn't
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end there. It keeps going on in America's wars.
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Yeah, it is used again in World War I, in
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World War II, almost every conflict we've ever been in,
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it creeps up again. But do you think that it's
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something in its original form, that was righteous in the
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Civil War, that was co-opted in the Spanish-American War for
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the purposes of colonialism?
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I would find that a tempting conclusion or a tempting hypothesis.
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One of the problems there is that, and I wrestle
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with this, I wrestle with just how to explain this
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without exaggerating it, but It is correct to say that
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Julia Ward Howe herself was something of an imperialist. In fact,
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the London Times made that claim after her death in
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1910 in an obituary for her, said that she was
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always an expansionist at heart. Now, I think we need
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to handle that judiciously, cautiously. But let me give you
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an example of something that she said in around 1900,
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maybe early 1901. And the context was the use of
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American Marines in the Boxer Rebellion to protect American property
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and embassies in Beijing. At that point, she said she
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was asked to give some extemporaneous comments at a public
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meeting in Boston, I believe to honor some Civil War
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Union veterans. And she said that.
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We.
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As a nation, we are now turning from the Old
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Testament of liberty for ourselves to the New Testament of
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liberty for all. And right there, and if you look
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at this in what she says in her journal and
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elsewhere what her daughters are writing, there is something in
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Julia Ward Howe that desires a very active, muscular U.S.
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presence in the world. She's very close friends with Teddy Roosevelt.
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So it's a little difficult to say that the poem
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is being co-opted. Now, certainly the poem is being used
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in ways she would not recognize, probably to extremes that
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she would disavow. But nevertheless, there is something in Julia
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Ward Howe that is– there's a bit of an imperial
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temper there to her.
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Four years after her death, World War I starts, and
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the song is yet again used to embolden and rally.
476
00:33:04.089 --> 00:33:05.259
How was it used in World War I?
477
00:33:05.710 --> 00:33:07.819
In World War I, the Battle Hymn of the Republic
478
00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:13.339
becomes what I call an international battle hymn. And that
479
00:33:13.539 --> 00:33:16.140
was being said of it at the time. In fact,
480
00:33:16.509 --> 00:33:19.990
some said that during the Spanish-American War, that the Battle
481
00:33:20.009 --> 00:33:22.509
Hymn of the Republic no longer belonged just to the
482
00:33:22.529 --> 00:33:27.210
United States. It actually belonged to everyone fighting for freedom everywhere.
483
00:33:29.410 --> 00:33:34.200
British authors took up that theme. Rudyard Kipling took up
484
00:33:34.259 --> 00:33:38.559
that theme already in the 1880s. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
485
00:33:38.740 --> 00:33:42.359
said this, writing about the breakthrough of the Hindenburg Line
486
00:33:42.420 --> 00:33:44.859
in 1918, that it was if the Battle Hymn of
487
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:49.200
the Republic was being played out again in front of
488
00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:55.079
him before his very eyes. And the British were very
489
00:33:55.220 --> 00:33:58.920
shrewd in their use of the Battle Hymn of the Republic.
490
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:02.799
It was during the First World War that they started
491
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:08.989
using the Battle Hymn as an anthem to honor America.
492
00:34:09.190 --> 00:34:13.349
It became a signature anthem to honor America, American service
493
00:34:13.389 --> 00:34:19.090
in the war. And it became a way to mark,
494
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:24.500
to celebrate the Anglo-American alliance. And it helped in some way,
495
00:34:24.739 --> 00:34:28.360
even the British themselves, to define the war. It started
496
00:34:28.420 --> 00:34:32.860
showing up in British songbooks. It started showing up in
497
00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:36.739
hymn books. To this day, I believe it is still
498
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:40.030
in the Anglican hymn book of the church of England.
499
00:34:40.750 --> 00:34:45.489
I have sat in St. Paul's cathedral on Thanksgiving day
500
00:34:45.789 --> 00:34:49.960
in a service for Americans in the city. And the
501
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:53.719
congregation sang the battle hymn with the Republic. So it's
502
00:34:54.079 --> 00:35:00.969
remarkable how popular this song remains and how closely it
503
00:35:01.090 --> 00:35:07.090
remains identified, uh, with the Anglo-American special relationship in the
504
00:35:07.110 --> 00:35:08.030
20th century.
505
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:18.199
On January 1st, 1892, a young Irish immigrant named Annie
506
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:21.500
Moore became the first person processed at the new immigration
507
00:35:21.539 --> 00:35:24.699
station on Ellis Island. For the millions who followed her,
508
00:35:24.980 --> 00:35:27.219
this small island in New York Harbor would become the
509
00:35:27.260 --> 00:35:30.989
place where their American dream would either begin or end. Hi,
510
00:35:31.070 --> 00:35:34.030
I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of the podcast American History Tellers.
511
00:35:34.449 --> 00:35:36.889
We take you to the events, times, and people that
512
00:35:36.949 --> 00:35:40.829
shaped America and Americans, our values, our struggles, and our dreams.
513
00:35:41.269 --> 00:35:44.130
In our latest series, we trace the history of Ellis Island.
514
00:35:44.369 --> 00:35:46.989
For more than three decades, it served as the gateway
515
00:35:47.030 --> 00:35:50.130
through which millions of hopeful immigrants entered the United States.
516
00:35:50.289 --> 00:35:53.289
But as the nation struggled to decide who belonged, some
517
00:35:53.329 --> 00:35:56.230
would find the gates shut to them. Follow American History
518
00:35:56.250 --> 00:35:59.630
Tellers wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge
519
00:35:59.769 --> 00:36:03.340
all episodes of American History Tellers early and ad-free right now.
520
00:36:03.610 --> 00:36:06.199
Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on
521
00:36:06.260 --> 00:36:07.099
Apple Podcasts.
522
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:11.059
Imagine you're reading Pride and Prejudice, except you're not reading it.
523
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:14.159
Harris Dickinson and Marissa Abella are reading it to you
524
00:36:14.380 --> 00:36:17.809
on Audible. Her barbs sting you. This coldness sends a
525
00:36:17.869 --> 00:36:19.869
shiver up your spine. Your heart aches.
526
00:36:20.179 --> 00:36:20.480
Aches.
527
00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:24.179
Your ears burn. You yearn for Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy
528
00:36:24.219 --> 00:36:26.900
to profess their undying love for one another. You can't
529
00:36:27.099 --> 00:36:32.059
bear it any longer. Well, maybe a chapter longer. Performance
530
00:36:32.099 --> 00:36:35.639
is so good, you'll give love a second chance. Audible.
531
00:36:36.420 --> 00:36:37.619
Stories that speak to you.
532
00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:49.480
Of course, the hem wasn't always used to rally military troops.
533
00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:53.639
It is an anthem of struggle and strife for freedom
534
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:57.639
almost everywhere, and in particular, was used by Martin Luther
535
00:36:57.679 --> 00:36:59.460
King in his mountaintop speech.
536
00:36:59.480 --> 00:36:59.780
Yes.
537
00:37:00.139 --> 00:37:02.389
How was the anthem used in the Civil Rights Movement?
538
00:37:02.530 --> 00:37:06.010
That's certainly the most famous and the most important. And
539
00:37:06.050 --> 00:37:09.650
you're right that Martin Luther King Jr. used it repeatedly
540
00:37:10.210 --> 00:37:14.489
in his speeches, catchphrases from it, and in the rhythm,
541
00:37:15.389 --> 00:37:18.369
the way in which he brought the crowd along with him.
542
00:37:18.389 --> 00:37:19.469
Yeah.
543
00:37:20.949 --> 00:37:24.670
Statement and response in those speeches, he used the battle
544
00:37:24.690 --> 00:37:27.409
hymn a great deal. It shows up, if you do
545
00:37:27.449 --> 00:37:30.889
a newspaper search in the 1950s and 60s for the
546
00:37:30.949 --> 00:37:36.019
battle hymn, you find it appearing all over the South
547
00:37:36.619 --> 00:37:43.300
and even beyond in any number of peaceful protests, demonstrations.
548
00:37:45.429 --> 00:37:49.690
You find it in Alabama, Georgia. It's very common that
549
00:37:50.510 --> 00:37:55.929
groups together in protest, maybe at the Capitol building in Montgomery,
550
00:37:55.949 --> 00:37:58.760
they will start singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic
551
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:05.300
as a signature song. And I believe that that use
552
00:38:05.340 --> 00:38:09.360
of the Battle Hymn of the Republic would, I think
553
00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:13.559
we could interpret that use of it as the least
554
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:16.929
ironic use of the Battle Hymn. Because the battle hymn
555
00:38:17.050 --> 00:38:19.670
ends up being sung by all kinds of people that
556
00:38:19.730 --> 00:38:24.989
Julia Ward Howe didn't particularly like. She had very strong views.
557
00:38:25.829 --> 00:38:28.699
She did not like Mormons, for instance, and did not
558
00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:32.500
want them to flourish in America. And now the Mormon
559
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:38.400
Tabernacle Choir sings it all the time as its own
560
00:38:38.539 --> 00:38:43.829
signature anthem. But that's ironic because that's not something Julia
561
00:38:43.869 --> 00:38:47.360
Ward Howe pictured them doing. But its use in the
562
00:38:47.420 --> 00:38:52.840
civil rights movement is much closer to its original intention.
563
00:38:53.579 --> 00:38:55.219
What makes this song so powerful?
564
00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:04.360
That, I'm hesitating here. That is hard to answer. How
565
00:39:04.460 --> 00:39:09.619
does one poem from a war that produced many, many poems,
566
00:39:09.909 --> 00:39:13.650
how does one poem take hold of the public imagination?
567
00:39:13.789 --> 00:39:16.590
I don't think there's an easy answer for that. I
568
00:39:16.650 --> 00:39:21.099
think we can just watch it happen and maybe try
569
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:25.539
to explain it along the way. In many ways, and
570
00:39:26.829 --> 00:39:31.000
maybe this will offend some people, but this poem... is
571
00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:37.719
not necessarily high art. It has its merits, but she
572
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:43.699
never quite attained the level of real literary excellence in
573
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:48.599
America among the poets of the mid-19th century. It's considered
574
00:39:48.659 --> 00:39:52.650
one of her finest poems, and I think that's true.
575
00:39:54.550 --> 00:39:59.969
But its power, I think, lies in its associations with
576
00:40:00.829 --> 00:40:06.280
the memories of wars. It lies at the sentimental level
577
00:40:06.659 --> 00:40:11.860
of American patriotism. It takes its place alongside America the Beautiful,
578
00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:16.579
The Star-Spangled Banner. It nearly became our national anthem in
579
00:40:16.599 --> 00:40:20.820
the early 20th century. So it has a familiarity to it.
580
00:40:21.539 --> 00:40:24.840
Children sing it. We sing it in all kinds of contexts.
581
00:40:26.059 --> 00:40:30.780
I think all those reasons add up to its durability.
582
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:35.639
But also, I doubt this poem would be as durable
583
00:40:36.389 --> 00:40:42.389
as it has become and remained if people actually connected
584
00:40:42.449 --> 00:40:47.989
its stanzas to the prophetic and apocalyptic sections of the Bible.
585
00:40:49.820 --> 00:40:54.679
I think to some degree, this poem is sung in ignorance.
586
00:40:56.519 --> 00:40:59.739
And the last verse is very popular because it's much
587
00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:06.340
more calm, sentimental. It speaks of Christ and the beauty
588
00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:11.800
of the lilies. It speaks of his death and the
589
00:41:11.860 --> 00:41:14.500
need to die to make others free. And that's a
590
00:41:14.500 --> 00:41:20.059
very famous line. But the other stanzas... Certainly the first
591
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:26.119
three stanzas, but maybe the first four are violent, much
592
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:30.800
more violent than we realize as we sing them. And
593
00:41:31.239 --> 00:41:35.849
I think that forgetfulness or that ignorance on the part
594
00:41:35.949 --> 00:41:40.010
of the general public, and that's not a criticism. We
595
00:41:40.090 --> 00:41:42.670
all sing things and recite things that we don't know
596
00:41:42.690 --> 00:41:45.949
the full meaning of. But I think that has kept
597
00:41:46.329 --> 00:41:51.139
this anthem very popular. There's little reflection on the actual
598
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:54.119
content of the words.
599
00:41:55.280 --> 00:42:00.380
That's an interesting thought, because your center of study might
600
00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:01.579
be on civil religion.
601
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:01.920
Yes.
602
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:07.090
So I'm interested in why you'd study this poem and
603
00:42:07.170 --> 00:42:09.909
perhaps also tell our audience what civil religion is.
604
00:42:10.210 --> 00:42:15.349
Right. I'm afraid the reason why the book exists is
605
00:42:15.389 --> 00:42:18.860
a pretty prosaic reason. I had a colleague who walked
606
00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:22.650
into my office, and he's the series editor for a
607
00:42:23.090 --> 00:42:26.449
new series about religion and American life, it's called. And
608
00:42:26.469 --> 00:42:29.070
he walked into my office and said, have you ever
609
00:42:29.090 --> 00:42:30.550
thought about writing a book on the Battle Hymn of
610
00:42:30.570 --> 00:42:34.389
the Republic? So six or seven years later, there is
611
00:42:34.429 --> 00:42:36.050
now a book on the Battle Hymn of the Republic.
612
00:42:37.730 --> 00:42:41.929
But it does reflect my longstanding interest in civil religion,
613
00:42:42.380 --> 00:42:46.280
classes I teach, books I review, a lot of my writing.
614
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:51.320
Previous books of mine have been about civil religion. Civil religion,
615
00:42:51.539 --> 00:42:54.280
in a nutshell, which is not easy to do, but
616
00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:59.389
in a nutshell, civil religion works in two ways. At
617
00:42:59.690 --> 00:43:06.809
one level, civil religion takes religious symbols and words. I'll
618
00:43:06.869 --> 00:43:07.909
use the example.
619
00:43:07.550 --> 00:43:08.150
Of the Bible.
620
00:43:08.670 --> 00:43:13.019
Civil religion in America takes the Bible, the words and
621
00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:17.050
the content of the Bible, and turns it to the
622
00:43:17.110 --> 00:43:21.610
purposes of the state and especially to the purposes of
623
00:43:21.630 --> 00:43:25.550
the wars waged by the nation. So it takes the
624
00:43:25.590 --> 00:43:29.610
religious and turns it and uses it for the purposes
625
00:43:29.969 --> 00:43:32.389
of the nation. And that's one of the things we
626
00:43:32.429 --> 00:43:36.269
see happening in the battle hymn. The other side of
627
00:43:36.489 --> 00:43:39.679
civil religion, which is a more common definition of civil religion,
628
00:43:40.820 --> 00:43:46.219
says that parts of our national experience, the symbols, let's say,
629
00:43:46.980 --> 00:43:51.500
George Washington, the Declaration of Independence, the Liberty Bell, certain
630
00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:57.840
slogans and phrases of the people by the people. The content,
631
00:43:57.860 --> 00:44:04.000
the symbolic content of our national life gets elevated to
632
00:44:04.039 --> 00:44:07.619
the place, to the function of a religion. These are
633
00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:10.460
the things that help bind us together as a people.
634
00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:14.530
So that's the other meaning of civil religion. In practice,
635
00:44:15.389 --> 00:44:17.809
both of those go together. We find the same people
636
00:44:19.429 --> 00:44:23.539
encouraging civil religion or using civil religion who are doing
637
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:29.760
both things simultaneously. And Americans get used to their sermons
638
00:44:29.900 --> 00:44:33.320
sounding like political speeches and their political speeches sounding like sermons.
639
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:39.280
But when that happens, that's a manifestation of civil religion.
640
00:44:40.050 --> 00:44:40.320
Dr.
641
00:44:40.340 --> 00:44:42.730
Gamble, thank you so much for being on American History
642
00:44:42.769 --> 00:44:43.289
Tellers today.
643
00:44:43.630 --> 00:44:45.750
Lindsay, it has been an honor and a privilege.
644
00:44:47.579 --> 00:44:51.119
That was my conversation with historian Richard Gamble. Check out
645
00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:53.889
his new book, A Fiery Gospel, The Battle Hymn of
646
00:44:53.909 --> 00:44:56.750
the Republic and the Road to Righteous War. It's available
647
00:44:56.789 --> 00:45:00.110
for pre-order now. On our last special episode of American
648
00:45:00.150 --> 00:45:02.769
History Tellers, we ask you a question. If you could
649
00:45:02.789 --> 00:45:05.530
be an everyday person at some point in American history,
650
00:45:05.670 --> 00:45:08.380
which time period would you choose and why? We've got
651
00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:09.239
some good responses.
652
00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:16.119
Hello, my name is Tully. I'm a history teacher from Shreveport, Louisiana.
653
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:20.059
The period that I would pick would be the 1920s.
654
00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:28.150
It's a great time in automobile history, along with the
655
00:45:28.369 --> 00:45:34.929
crazy economy and the progression of the social life as well.
656
00:45:34.949 --> 00:45:40.039
Hi, my name is Sam. I'm calling from Princeton, New Jersey.
657
00:45:40.579 --> 00:45:43.940
It's not going to be anywhere in America at any time.
658
00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:47.320
It would have to be the late 60s. There were
659
00:45:47.500 --> 00:45:49.980
so many revolutions going on at this time.
660
00:45:50.380 --> 00:45:53.360
Hi, my name is Al. If I could be alive
661
00:45:53.420 --> 00:45:55.639
at any time in history, I'd want it to be
662
00:45:55.659 --> 00:45:59.409
the time period before and just after founding fathers put
663
00:45:59.449 --> 00:46:03.250
together the Constitution of the United States. So many people
664
00:46:03.329 --> 00:46:06.260
reference it and claim that we are not following it,
665
00:46:06.750 --> 00:46:08.449
no matter who you talk to. So I would love
666
00:46:08.489 --> 00:46:12.639
to understand what they really intended. and maybe help me
667
00:46:12.659 --> 00:46:15.980
to better understand whether we are indeed holding true to
668
00:46:16.039 --> 00:46:17.639
it or not. It seems like a lot of rhetoric.
669
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:19.500
It's hard to know what the truth is. So I'd
670
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:20.860
love to understand what they meant.
671
00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:25.260
Those were listeners Al McGovern from Naperville, Illinois, Sam Rosenfeld
672
00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:28.440
from Highland Park, New Jersey, and Tully Covington, an eighth
673
00:46:28.460 --> 00:46:32.320
grade history teacher from Shreveport, Louisiana. We loved hearing from you.
674
00:46:32.619 --> 00:46:34.420
And if you haven't called in, please do.
675
00:46:34.820 --> 00:46:35.139
We're at 424-285-0548.
676
00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:40.619
Call to tell us which time period you would choose
677
00:46:40.780 --> 00:46:43.420
and why. Remember to include your name and where you
678
00:46:43.460 --> 00:46:46.400
were calling from. We might play your message on the show. Again,
679
00:46:46.420 --> 00:46:48.199
that's 424-285-0548.
680
00:46:48.219 --> 00:46:48.969
424-285-0548.
681
00:46:49.070 --> 00:46:58.010
From Wondery, this is Episode 7 of The Great Depression
682
00:46:58.110 --> 00:47:02.010
from American History Tellers. On the next episode, President Woodrow
683
00:47:02.050 --> 00:47:07.309
Wilson's efforts to suppress America's growing anarchist movement brings the little-known, poorly-funded,
684
00:47:07.469 --> 00:47:11.329
and notoriously corrupt Bureau of Investigation into the national spotlight,
685
00:47:11.690 --> 00:47:14.780
and eventually launches the career of an ambitious young civil
686
00:47:14.820 --> 00:47:27.429
servant named Edgar Hoover. American History Tellers is only possible
687
00:47:27.510 --> 00:47:30.550
because of listeners like you, so thank you. And don't
688
00:47:30.590 --> 00:47:33.630
miss an episode. Be sure to follow American History Tellers
689
00:47:33.710 --> 00:47:37.409
on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers
690
00:47:37.469 --> 00:47:40.409
can binge new seasons of American History Tellers early and
691
00:47:40.530 --> 00:47:43.610
ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or
692
00:47:43.650 --> 00:47:46.730
by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. And to find out more
693
00:47:46.769 --> 00:47:50.269
about me, including my other podcasts, my live show, the
694
00:47:50.309 --> 00:47:52.949
history tours I'm arranging, and all sorts of other things,
695
00:47:53.349 --> 00:48:02.940
go to historyishuman.com. That's historyishuman.com. American History Tellers is hosted, edited,
696
00:48:03.019 --> 00:48:06.099
and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham for Airship. Sound
697
00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:09.250
design by Derek Behrens. This episode is written by Bill Lasher.
698
00:48:09.610 --> 00:48:13.150
Edited by Dorian Marina. Edited and produced by Jenny Lauer Beckman.
699
00:48:13.489 --> 00:48:17.010
Produced by George Lavender. Our executive producer is Marshall Louis.
700
00:48:17.369 --> 00:48:19.369
Created by Hernán López for Wondery.
701
00:48:27.369 --> 00:48:30.210
It started with a loophole. One man on a transatlantic
702
00:48:30.250 --> 00:48:33.090
flight read through a gambling law and found a crack
703
00:48:33.190 --> 00:48:36.369
just wide enough to build an empire. Within a few years,
704
00:48:36.449 --> 00:48:40.340
FanDuel and DraftKings were blanketing every screen in America with
705
00:48:40.360 --> 00:48:44.000
the promise that you could win real cash legally by
706
00:48:44.260 --> 00:48:46.960
picking the right players. Hey there, I'm David Brown, the
707
00:48:46.980 --> 00:48:49.940
host of the podcast Business Wars. Every season we bring
708
00:48:49.980 --> 00:48:52.760
you the true stories behind the companies that shape our world,
709
00:48:53.059 --> 00:48:57.110
their rivalries, their reinventions, and their spectacular rises and falls.
710
00:48:57.550 --> 00:49:00.800
In our new season, FanDuel and DraftKings didn't just compete
711
00:49:00.860 --> 00:49:04.280
with each other. They fought regulators, rewrote gambling laws, and
712
00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:08.980
helped turn a legal gray area into a $ 167 billion industry.
713
00:49:09.539 --> 00:49:12.239
It's the story of how sports betting took over America
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and what it's costing all of us. Make sure to
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follow Business Wars wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers
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can binge all episodes of Business Wars early and ad
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free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or
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