Vince:
00:00:06
Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening and welcome back within Thin Lines. My name is Vince Castaneda. Today I have Tyler Frank here with me on the virtual end calling in from Michigan. Tyler, how you doing today? I'm doing all right. Good. It's been a little minute. I know you've been busy. On your end, you're going through paramedic. Yeah, we just,
Tyler:
00:00:23
Been about three months into that so far, that journey. Oh, oh
Vince:
00:00:26
yeah. Oh yeah. And you and I, I think a couple nights ago we, we did a Zoom conference just to make sure you're studying the appropriate stuff, talking about blood, gas, and levels and pH
Tyler:
00:00:37
Yes, that was, all the stuff that never showed up on that test. That's right. Good stuff.
Vince:
00:00:42
We're preparing
Tyler:
00:00:42
for all the good stuff. Need I need a good every once in a while you can stare at text and you can do the videos and do the homework, but my go-to usually is getting my head kicked in by Vince a little bit. And that's right. I usually set some stuff straight,
Vince:
00:00:56
so like-minded people. And speaking of like-minded people, today we have another guest, a returning guest who is now here to reveal something and which we'll talk about later in the show is gonna be coming into a partnership. So without further ado, Chris, Matt Montana. Welcome
Chris:
00:01:12
back. Hey, Vince, thank you very much for having me. Glad to be on with you and Tyler today. And kind of talk about some passionate subjects that we, equally share and hopefully share some really exciting news for, our listeners.
Vince:
00:01:24
Absolutely, absolutely. With the, the current events and we recently just released the episode last night. It was kind of a spur of the moment. We've had some challenging times happen throughout our area here in Illinois. And we decided to do a very impromptu, just a re reminder, reality check, a buddy check. We dropped an episode saying we need to normalize mental health. and this is something that we as a organization have been really compassionate about and wanted to pursue, to develop a program, develop a foundation with partnerships, with collaborations, with other agencies, to be able to provide a resource for our first responders and military personnel. And something that, you know, ever since I met you, Chris, ever since I took your class, it was something that you and I have always been leaning on each other as well. Have utilized each other for that support and said, we, we are losing like-minded people. How can we find this in fruition to become a bigger aspect? And that's what we're here today is to kind of talk about the normalization of mental health, but the best thing we could do in, in trying to educate and inspire this mindset is to reflect within ourselves. You can't lead without being an influencer. You can't direct somebody without showing by example, right? So this is where we're kind of at. They know my story they've heard about Tyler's story, and it, I think this is an opportunity to hear from you, Chris kind of your background, what's, where are you from, what, what have you done? And what's, what's ultimately your life goal?
Chris:
00:02:59
Well, I think you said a lot of good things there. When you look at the current state of affairs when it comes to normalizing mental health and first responders among military veterans, active military personnel it goes across the board. We're seeing the fractures along the lines. We've seen them increase over the last two years, and it's only been perpetuated by the pandemic, the ongoing e m s shortage, and we're seeing suicide rates climb faster than they ever had before. And we have more resources and more tools available than we ever. but nobody's actually stopped to ask the question why? Why is that happening? A little bit about me and, and some of you guys out there listening. You guys may know a little bit about my story, but I have struggled with mental health for the last going on almost six years now. I've had two failed suicide attempts. My last one was in January of this. and not a lot of people know that I got to a very deep place, even though I had resources, even though I had worked through tools it still happens to the best of us. So to, to piggyback on some of the things that you said, I think also showing humility and vulnerability is even more important nowadays than ever because we're so guarded. We're so guarded because of the stigma. We're so guarded because we don't want to be judged and we're just fearful of what might happen, what might come of it. Am I gonna lose my job? What are my coworkers gonna think? What's my family gonna think because they think I'm an alcoholic? Because I've now taken those steps to admit it. Right. Those things all become barriers within our industry and challenge. When I started imed, I found imed. My whole passion was to help change emergency medical education from a fragmented industry and bring it together and make it high quality, not just check the box stuff. And, and I brought that passion to it. But over the years I started getting burned out, started kind of losing the passion, the drive, what drove me, because as an early entrepreneur and a bootstrapped entrepreneur at that as a founder there's a lot of stress on you when you start a business. And just like you'd be starting a new department or starting a new position as a manager or as a new medic being Tyler those are stressful moments. And what we have not been given, at least in my experience, because I started as a lifeguard, when was 12, I went right into m t school. At 18, I was working for the fire department, went right into flight. When I hit my three years, I worked for the Department of Defense that did contracting work overseas and supportable war on terror. And What I learned it throughout all of those, now looking back in almost 22, 25 years, if you go all the way back to when I was 12, I mean that's almost 30 years of experience. But what I did not get taught in any of that, I got taught about medical procedures, new changes, updates, protocols, drugs, physiology, changes in cpr, R and a h a, not once was I ever taught about how to deal with stress, how to deal with addiction, how to deal with burnout, how to deal with mental health disorders and struggles that are so real. But nobody wanted to look at 'em when I came into this industry because it was sit down, shut up, like, don't share your feeling. I mean, that was the culture I came into. It was very, very toxic and that was ingrained in me as a new recruit, as a proby, as every step of the way. But not once was I ever given the tools on how to figure out life. right? How do I deal with life? How do I deal with life? Overwhelms me when I have to work. I was working three jobs, I was working for two fire departments and flying full-time. I didn't have a life I was gone and home only usually two, sometimes one day a week. That's it, what does that do for someone when you're in isolation? So that led me after imed ims, doing really well. And we've transitioned and we were recently acquired last November by NoFL Learning Group and it's been phenomenal. I got with another company that gave me the resources and tools to help support my mission and grow that and see that going. But during my struggle in January, what I found when I was alone, and for some of you who have never actually gone through a situation like this, I'm gonna be really real candid. So I just wanna give you a trigger alert because this might trigger you if you are feeling like you're in a dark space. And if you are, please reach out. Text me, call me, DM me, find somebody head up, Vincent, cuz we're here to help. But when I was I, I took my truck out on a long country road out here in Utah. Got back from teaching a ventilator course, I got triggered out there. I didn't have my dog, I didn't have my resources, I forgot my meds. And I got really off track, man. I got into a really bad spot and I just took this drive. I just driving at this point just driving, driving and you just get in your head, man, and it's alone and it's night and now I'm intoxicated. When I got out to where I was, I basically drove down way down to the snowmobile trail and then I got the great idea, Hey, I don't think I'm just gonna take my truck over to this tree line over there. Well, I didn't make it very far on a snowmobile truck trail in my truck. I made about probably 150 yards before I sank and buried it. And at that point I didn't have cell phone service. I'm in the middle of nowhere wilderness, Utah. and there's no calling for help. There's no reaching out for resources. I, at that point, was left to my own devices, and that wasn't a great thing. That just continued to see me get into a deeper and deeper place. About two 30 in the morning a B l m, snow cat who grooms a trail at night for the snowmobilers. During of the day, he happened to come across my vehicle and asked me if I was okay. I said, yeah, I'm fine. I'm wearing a t-shirt, shorts and my night slippers, and it's negative 16 now, just give you perspective. And I don't have any clue. I didn't I got my survival. I'm, I'm very resourceful if I want to be, but I wasn't in that mindset. A series of events happened after that Utah Department of Public Safety came up. They took a look at me interviewed me, stuff like that. They helped me tow my vehicle out. And at that point they took me into Hebrew Valley Medical Center, where I was evaluated by a crisis worker. And at that point I was committed. They've transferred me out into a a specialized mental health institution. And I wanna share my experience because some of you you may be thinking some of these things or some of these thoughts that I was initially thinking before this event happened. And that was, Hey, if I ever get really bad I'll at least go check myself in. That's why I always told myself I'd never actually done it, never actually been into an institution or did gone through that process. But going through that process they said I initially I could bring my service dog they were gonna make accommodations for her and stuff like that. I could couldn't call anybody. You don't get any clothes. So for pretty much the first two days, because I couldn't find family members. Cause you, you only get to call five people on your list and you only get the phone so many times. Like, it's, it's, it's a, it's a very controlled environment and you're in there with Well, I was the only one there suffering from a mental health illness in my regard. So a suicide attempt essentially. Everybody else was there for detox, most likely. There was a lot of detox, whether it be alcohol, whether it be heroin, stuff like that. And so you're put in that environment, you're sharing a bed with somebody else, a rams stranger that is equally not as healthy as you or, or could be worse. And I was stuck in that environment for nine days. Hmm. And I will tell you, that was the worst environment to put someone like me in how triggered I was constantly. I mean, I'm looking at all these, all these other patients there as they're my former patients, I could put faces on each of 'em. I'm like, ah, yeah. Tube this overdose before. And I've done that one. And you, it, it wasn't a safe place. And then I remember at the time it was this past January and there was that big fire, I believe in Boston or New York where it killed about 12 kids and stuff like that. And all they were talking about is, well, why didn't the and here I am suffering from all of that. It was not a good experience for me. I didn't get the treatment I needed. I think the best thing that ever came out of that is I just got my meds balanced to a degree and then got additional tools to follow up with to keep me going. Sure. But realistically, the nine days I was in there, i I, it was hell, it was absolute hell for me and it wasn't a pretty picture and I wouldn't want anybody now going through that experience to go through a similar experience that I experienced. I'm not saying they're all like that, so please don't take it like that or out of context. I'm just saying this is my experience at this institution and it needed change because the way that we address mental health in our general public versus the way we address mental health and first responders and veterans and military personnel, law enforcement, we, we loop 'em all into one bunch. And that's what the medical community does. That's what the general public does. and I hate to say this, but there are two complete opposite spheres here when it comes to this stuff. In my personal opinion, the way I look at it, the reason being is man, when you look at it, there are two different spheres. Well I can understand a general public who's never been trained or indoctrinate or sensitized to what we go through to have a car accident, have a bad day, or have a traumatic event, assault, sexual, whatever. I understand that, but there's a difference when you have a, an acute event versus a decade or two decades or three decades of different events that have different stimulations. I have P T S C like complex. Now there's a new category for me because they can't just put me in one. I'm not ashamed of that. I'm actually happy. Why? Because it shows that the medical community is actually recognizing that there's, this is a very it's not a one size fit all. It's not one symp. It is a very complex issue. It's not a cookie
Vince:
00:13:00
cutter thing.
Chris:
00:13:01
No, it's not. And we're now looking at it, right? We're finally trying to unravel that. And the biggest challenge is if you there's some good books out there. John Bon Roseberg, one of my friends turned me onto one and I can't remember the name off the top of my head, but I got into that book and I really saw the challenges that general medical community and psychiatric and behavioral health we're taking the approach on this. They didn't wanna update the DSM five. They didn't wanna even recognize P T S D. They didn't, Hey, this was Shell Shock syndrome. It's just ignorance, right? You gotta update, you gotta change. And guess what? If it's not on that D s M me as a patient, I can't get help for that. What am I gonna claim? What insurance is gonna pay for it? And then they start fighting about what medications are actually ethical or you to get my bravado treatment, which is ketamine. I do inhaled ketamine. I've been through the initial program and now I do a maintenance every three weeks and it helps keep me balanced. It's part of my therapy re regimen. I had to fight for that. I had to show that I had gone through four other antidepressant medications without success before I could be considered for that. Do you know how long it takes to get on a psych bed? You gotta wait at least six weeks minimum to see the effects and the changes. And then they got adjusted dosages. So you're talking, I pretty much went through a whole year and a half and I couldn't take advantage of this therapy because I had to go through all these other steps and hoops that didn't work. And so those are just things, those are just problems that I'm just, I'm just bringing up, I'm bringing awareness to. Right. And I think some of the other people that are, might be listening in yourself could, can relate to this. So these are struggles that we're kind of going off of. Right. And then I also look at it's, it's a hard change, and so I didn't want to go through that anymore. And so I got passionate about it. One, I got sober, I started working with aa. That was, for me, that was a good tool for me to get me into a good place. Therapy once a week, twice a week just depending on what's going on. And then over time it just becomes maintenance. What I have found, if I don't do it, I start going back to the things that used to cause me problems. And so that led me to kind of create the Wounded Medic Foundation, and, and that's why I'm so passionate about mental health, because. I'm just as passionate about mental health as I am about education because I actually care about my fellow provider, my, the brothers and sisters working alongside me that are in this industry. More importantly, those are actually coming in that are new. Like Tyler he's going on a, why aren't they teaching stuff like this and giving these these students the tools up front in class to help give them the opportunity to be successful. Give 'em leadership cools in class. Because when you're a medic, that's what you're technically the leader of that box. Mm-hmm. you're a supervisor, but what training have you given as far as being an actual supervisor or a manager? Zero. You're just winging this stuff. It's ojt, right, baby. And we've always just flown by the seat of our pants and unfortunately the state of affairs show that that's not working anymore and we need to re-look at that. and, and make some licensedions and see how we can implement some changes that will actually provide them with the tools to decrease the amount of rate of suicides, to decrease the amount of e m s providers that have diversions and have substance abuse issues. We don't provide enough of this. We're seeing the communities, and this is a good barometer, at least for me, when I start seeing the conferences really focus and shift their focus on mental health, that tells me something, right? Tells me that they finally woke up and they're catching on. And that's what you're seeing and that's great. It's a good trend, but how can we make it sustainable more importantly? And two, how do we make it better? So I think those are really good things as as to why I'm here and why I'm so passionate. But for those of you guys looking at this story I am, I'm almost a year past my suicide attempt last January, six months sober. I feel great. The best I've ever been in 20 years. I gotta. Work-life balance. I got tools, I got time to myself. I told told Vince like you asked me how I was doing. Hey, hey, I'm gonna do a podcast at Friday at work. Finally, like, I didn't have that life before. I'm gonna go read my, my book. I'm reading educated right now. I love it. Like, I'm gonna sit down in my office and read I, these are opportunities I didn't have and I didn't have the tools to even think about that. So I've had to have other people help me with my support to help create that routine for myself to make it better. So, hey, if you guys are in the fire, you guys feel like you're in the fog. I was there. I was in that darkness. Okay. I can tell you that there is a light on the other side. And sometimes you just need a helping hand to guide you get out of that thing. Mm-hmm. And that's kind of where I'm shifting my focus now. I, I've been in the fire twice now. I'm never gonna say it's fun to go back into the fire and help other people, but since that attempt I've tried and some successfully and some not successfully, is it was very public. Back in March when I lost my friend Drew, I missed his phone call by 30 minutes. Oh. Actually, he called me and I said I was gonna call him back in 30 minutes, and within that 30 minutes he had taken his life. And that was very I was very public because I'm, I'm tired of this stuff, guys. Yeah. I I'm tired. I've lost five friends this year. Five. Yeah. Last year I think I lost about the same, I think it was closer to seven, but people that I knew, people I were working with, people that just within our community that would reach out either through Facebook or whatever based on what we were doing. Right. And, and there's hundreds more that I'm not seeing. And I think we're all kind of tired of it. And I love my buddy Jim Green, he's been a good friend and mentor of mine. He does a mission ready campaign, but he always says like, I, I love his line. It's either you accept the status or you choose to change it. And I'm not accepting it anymore. So I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I'm doing it. I'm working. Whether it takes traction or it gets off, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know where this journey's gonna go, but I'm excited to have the support and the community I'm excited to see. Hopefully it does make an impact, even if it saves one person a year. Like that's one death that I don't personally have to own and deal with and, and, and go through again. Like I just, sorry man, I don't go to funerals very much anymore. I used to go to 'em all the time to pay my respects, but dude, I, I just can't go anymore. Sure. I can't.
Vince:
00:19:07
So you, you nailed em. That I had I think the the, the problem of this, what I'm calling is a pandemic, right? It's been an issue for decades now. It's yeah. It's something that, I hate to see that. Statistically we kind of classify this almost like it's a natural cause, yeah. This is Complet heart. Yeah, this is, this is, it's absurd for me cuz this is preventable means this is something where we ought to be educating our recruits. We ought to be work educating our candidates early on. Just like you said, I and I, I talked about it on the podcast we released last night. One of the things I noticed in every academy and every basic training or whatever I've been part of that, we always had someone of leadership come in and he'd say, Hey, don't bring your problems home. Don't talk about your problems, just leave 'em at work and then just try not to bring it home. But of course you bring them when you go home, your, your spouse and your family, they know you've had a hard time. You could try to bite your tongue as hard as possible, but your body language changes. And then if the more you ignore the issues, cuz we all need to, we all should be aware that we work very odd jobs, right? We're not designed to be able to handle trauma and chaos and gore, but this is what we do. We work high stress jobs. We're gonna get high stress moments, we're gonna have those outcomes where we're struggling, so if we feel like we shouldn't be addressing it at home and just ignoring it, we're just, we're, we're setting ourselves, ourselves up for failure, so my, my response to that is, is f that go home, talk about your problems. Talk about your problems for your partners, your crew, your, your team. Get rid of the stigma. I think for a while employers were kind of saying, oh yeah, we're, we're big about mental health. You could come talk to us. But what did they do? They send you home? they give you time off. That's not what we need. We need support,
Chris:
00:20:56
so, so we're gonna send you home to be further isolated. Right? To be with all your vices that make you worse. Can you see where this goes? Right. It's not, and you're right. It's like we, we, we we're chasing a hamster wheel if we don't make the changes and, and some of those changes they come down to the dollar and, and I'm a businessman, so I understand that there's only so much dollars. There's only the, the pie's only so big. So how much can we contribute to the pro programs internally within an agency to help support this? And, and if anybody has caught one of my lectures about burnout, there's six things you guys can do that cost your agency zero money, just time and energy that. Time and energy, zero money, so go check out that talk with the EM s leadership or I'll be at CC T M C with Porsche actually presenting that one as as well. So but yeah, like it doesn't cost money, but you have to put in the time you have to have a program. And, and some people it could be fair, like if I was an employer and I had no idea how to come after this pandemic because I myself wasn't given those tools, do you get fearful? Like, okay, maybe if I just not do anything, it'll go away, right? Like Yeah. It's just getting louder. And I like how you mentioned talking because I can wholeheartedly tell you that the more I tell my story, the more I talk about my struggles, my deficiencies, things that are bothering me, the better I actually feel. I don't think that beforehand, I have to remind myself when I get to that point, because I don't wanna open up, I don't wanna talk to anybody. We, we in, in, in, in nature. We just wanna shut down and withdraw. That's what we want to do. We have to fight against that. And those are, those are part of the tools of being mentally resilient is, is how do I fight against that urge not to reach out, not to talk. So for me, I have to remind myself, Hey, remember the last time you felt like this, you called up so-and-so, or had a conversation with so-and-so and man, how'd you feel afterwards? I felt great. I got that off my chest. I was able to let it go so that I don't have to keep that stuff in my backpack. I can just, Hey, it's out. And that's the thing. I didn't talk over my 22 years of actively working first line ems. I didn't, didn't talk to anybody. I was told like, you man, bury it. Keep it down. Shut up. You're a baby. You can't handle this. I remember calling one of my direct managers while I was having a complete hallucinogen flashback breakdown and asked for help. And I was just told like, you, hey. go ahead and take tomorrow off. Well, great. I dealt with three fatalities that day. One being a neonate and you're just telling me, Hey, just stay home and sleep it off.
Vince:
00:23:30
Go be isolated. That's gonna help. Go be isolated.
Chris:
00:23:33
Yeah. So, but now you know, you get to a point where you're able to reflect and look back and see those things line up. We call it the Swiss Cheese Effect. I can see some of those ch, I can see some of those pieces now that I didn't have the objective or the perspective or the purview early on. And so now that I have it, I want to share it. So hopefully this is how we make change, right? I can't change where I'm at right now, but what I can change is what's gonna happen tomorrow and thereafter and thereafter. And I can control how I react to those responses and situations as. So we gotta get better about talking. And this is where having inclusive groups I've thought about and, and I don't know what the answer is, right? I think, I think it's a multi-pronged approach. Cause I, not one thing's gonna work, but I've thought about, hey, maybe we host anonymous, like Zoom hangouts where it's totally anonymous. You don't have to share your screen, you can just share your mic and it just gives you an opportunity to just word vomit. It's just, you, you, and if you know that's available to you, then nobody knows who you are. But you know that they're like you in some way because they're either struggling or they're involved in e m s or, or active service duty. You can go onto that place and, and get that out and let it go because that then tells you like, Hey, I have an opportunity. It reduces the barrier to share. So hopefully we can all just start talking about this a lot more because. The discussion helps and it breaks the stigma and it normalizes it. I'm an alcoholic. Hi, my name's Chris. I'm welcome. Okay. I'm part of this misfit band and I'm okay with that guys. Yes, because guess what? It's a disease. It's just like having diabetes. I don't have control over this stuff. I didn't know that and I didn't have the tools to recognize it. Now I do and I'm here
Vince:
00:25:12
to give back. Right? And that's what we're aspiring to do. I think a goal here in the WTL podcast is that we're gonna be going to academies and fire academies and getting a, an hour block for their school and just have this sit down conversation, hopefully, maybe even record a podcast live for them, but just prepare them, tell 'em this is a reality. You guys are about to enter a job, that you're gonna see things and do things and be involved in things that we're not raised to do. But here's not just the signs. Cause I think society is very big about here's the signs of, of poor mental health, but then there's nothing after that. It's all short term. Like here's a hospital for, give you nine days or seven days, some medications, but there's no long-term care. Right? What's the long term
Chris:
00:25:57
AAP visits? Or eight eight E a p visits. And then it's like, okay, well now what? Right. Exactly. And some of those e a P visits in my personal experience, have not come or been as beneficial as they probably could have, and it's not to the fault of the individual that I was seeing. It, it's the fault of the overall system because once again, you're classifying this as your general kind of e a p. It's the same e a p program that you would call if I was working for HP or Ford Motor Company or nascar. It doesn't change. It's the same kind of thing, and they treat everybody that general thing. We have to think about this in a different way for this type of individual, right? Mm-hmm. we have to, I don't think it's working necessarily very well, and I think we need to revisit it. You know how, I don't know. That's where having conversations is helpful. What do, what works for community? And, and in my talk with burnout, I, I ask providers specifically like, what do you do for stress? Because what I do for stress is maybe totally different. I want other people to hear what you're doing to help manage your stress. So maybe they can pick up something. Some guy said he was doing a keto, someone said hot yoga. All these other I painting, I learned how to play a, a, a musical instrument. Like these are things that most people just wouldn't think about. How do I, how do I find ways to decompress outside of work? Well, those were all great examples, so, but did you know about beforehand? Did you even, like, were you cognizant of that? More than likely not. And so it, it, that goes to show, like going out to those academies and sharing things like that is important in what we do early on. Early on. And then the stigma, like I would love to talk about the stigma and how we bust that you Yes, because when you look at stigma, right? It, the stigma creates fear, right? And one of the things I've learned is fear is a really big inhibitor for personal growth, right? If you're, you're scared to do something, so I don't do it, you're scared of this challenge, so you don't do it right? You're scared of, hey, maybe I'm a bad person and I'm not so great cuz I'm angry and agitated all the time. And so I don't wanna talk about it, or I don't wanna deal with it. Well, why because you, you've been told your whole career. I've been told to bottle it up. I've been told my whole career not to share these things, and I just need to, maybe there's something wrong with me because that goes through your head, like, why are all these other people fine? And I'm the one that's like totally messed up. Like, maybe I shouldn't even gotten this career field to begin with. I don't know. Maybe it's impasse that just are more susceptible. Who knows? But what I'm saying is when we look at the overall stigma, I love this. I, I just shared a TEDx talk. They looked at addiction, right? Addiction the term started coming out around the fifties. They looked at it and how they get that the study that they did for addiction was to put a single rat into a cage and give 'em two water bottles, one with water, one with either cocaine or heroin. What do you think the rat went, went to the cocaine and heroin every time? No, without fail. And a hundred percent of them. Eventually either overdosing or just they just kept wanting more and more and more. And around the seventies, this other gentleman comes along and I his name escapes me, but he takes a little look and goes, well, if you're putting a rat in a cage all by itself, it has no means to socialize or do anything else. All it can do is get high. Like, what,
Vince:
00:29:05
what do you expect? What do you expect?
Chris:
00:29:07
Yeah. Yeah. So he took that concept and he created rat heaven. He basically created this hotel, Taj Mahal for rats, had tunnels, all these different colored balls, play toys, other rats so they can have fun with other rats and make baby rats and they put the same water bottles in there, and guess what? Almost zero compulsivity going to the water bottle. Go get that cocaine or heroin, zero overdose. And so it's things like that, studies like that, that weren't really mainstream. And so they didn't get traction. They just kinda got pushed off. And probably nobody, I didn't even know this until I heard it today, and that's why I shared it, but, That's, that's the stigma of addiction. Okay, well, you're calling that addiction. Well then stop isolating me. Bring me out. Celine reside with Rebel. He always talks about connection. I love that guy because it is like, having a virtual connection is great, but it does not replace having you here in my office. Me having that one-on-one, giving you a bro high five elbow, whatever, that's a different kind of connection. And we're becoming more isolated with the pandemic. And so you're losing that a lot more. And that's why you're I, I suspect you're seeing the acceleration, but we, we, we put that stigma of, well, this is addiction. Well, what is e m s? Well, I just talked about it. I worked pre jobs. I was home once a week, always isolated, driving to and from work. And it's isolated. Like you're not getting connected. And on top of that, you're getting trauma and then you're not talking about it. It's a walking do time bomb. I mean, you're just, it's like a water balloon that you've hooked up to a faucet. It's only a matter of time before that thing
Vince:
00:30:41
explodes. Exactly, exactly. So your negativity is toxic, but the positivity is truly addicting. Right? It is. If we just keep things positive and we, we surround ourselves with like-minded people, people who may be struggling or who have struggled in the past and have found the way you'd be surprised how that's gonna lift you. Hundred percent, whether it's in person, I know world now, especially after Covid that kind of isolated everybody. And that's where we saw numbers deteriorate cuz people weren't able to hang out with each other. I mean, social things were, were forbidden, but now here we are trying to reamp that and, and re enclose this capsule of, of support, and I think Tyler's on this as well, and he's probably listening. He is like, man, I, I have so much he wants kind of pitch in about it. But we could go back and forth on, on his role. He's, he's going through paramedic school and he's an assistant chief for his department. He, he leaves that, that leadership role. And Tyler, I guess, what's your mindset what is it that you really have found to be the norm within your area of mental health? Is it even discussed? Is it even a, a module of a lesson?
Tyler:
00:31:56
Well, that's For the record, I wasn't just napping this entire time. I I appreciate Chris's input. It's cuz it, it's thought provoking and the thing that's been sticking with me through our previous conversations and then Chris and his experiences and everything is that that norm, that word normalize and you title things normalize nowadays and everybody wants to normalize a lot of different things. But it truly is to me to divine normalize like norm. And a minute ago we just kind of touched on like that fear or that, that taboo type thing of mental health. We cuz I think like you, like you said, people and we generally hesitant to do something we, we think is right sometimes, but there's just no one else doing it. Or, or there's no study, there's no. Cultural growth. Like you grow up with it as, as as a norm, so I think that holds up people. And I think there's different kinds of normal for, for crisp I call it, I was, for whatever reason that's stuck in my brain. People walk through this world and I think there's a kinetic and there's a potential, kinda like physics, right? I think Chris, you're kind of the kinetic. It's happened to you, it and it slapped you and it's now your mindset. It has, it's your part of your life and every day you address it with the individual things and that's your norm. You've normalized it for you. And then there's people that walk and that have no experience with it. And that's that potential. And I'll tell it, call it potential cuz potential energy, it can happen to anybody, whether you're strong or where you think you're strong or you think you've got things going well. Or under control. It can certainly happen to anybody. So that potential normalization, and that's what I look at when I see a lot of, I guess to Vince's question in my little world when I have new hirees or even when I was getting into, or when I start a paramedic class or when I start a new adventure, even where I'm at here today there's a normal to that that needs to be nurtured. And that's a big thing I think we've kind of discussed. I think that's a thing we kind of discussed a little bit as far as like initial education and type of things. These questions we're not asking that normal is, is how do you train these people nowadays that, that really haven't had that kinetic type experience in their, in their world, in their life. Possibly could, and they're gonna go out into this world and deal with people who are, are at that point who are experiencing a crisis. So and it's not just when I talk about how do you train them and what resources are offered, the initial stuff that you get and answers you get for that stuff, they're all kind of HR direct itself, black and white. Well yeah. It's, it's a business and an agency is gonna cover what they
Chris:
00:35:19
have. They call the dance it's like the HR dance. Yep. So it needs to, but I love what you said, Tyler. I love the potential. That is awesome. I love that concept. Yeah. And that's where we
Tyler:
00:35:31
all should start. And we should all when you go and dress a class of anybody, law enforcement, military just within thin lines, community or even, even private sector business, when you address it it's to normalize your individual aspect of that person, of that servant of, of your patient you might encounter. Okay. When you ask questions to a patient or some, or somebody experiencing a crisis, the first one's always outta the mouth are kind of like the, the textbook. Have you had thoughts? Do you have a plan? And all you're doing is checking those boxes to create a treatment plan. When you really think about or think about yourself, for me to normalize it for that potential student or that potential servant who's doing the job, normalize it with yourself, but normalize it for them. Ask them, Hey, are you married? Because now I have a yes or no, there's a spouse issue there. That's stress that causes people in crisis to act differently. Do you kind of look at their life? Do they have. are they, are they a parent? Are they not a parent? Are they that you know isolated? Are they in that isolated spot in that life? Kind of like Chris, you, you described. So you, you try to individualize the questions. You still gotta create that assessment and that treatment plan for 'em. But, but to put that stress in, that normalize the crisis for them. So when they get to that kinetic, cuz hopefully they survive it and hopefully they become that kinetic person. It has happened to 'em, it slaps 'em outside the head. They need to know that this is my life now it's normal for me to be like, this is normal for me to seek different options and routes to get through my day. Not to just kind of, when I say normal, it's, it's, that's their normalization. You're gonna help transition them to that, to normalize it for them. Cause I think once you just eat kind of ingest it in yourself, you. that it doesn't, it's not so scary anymore. We're always scared when we run our first call because we've never experienced it. That person going through that experience, that crisis, they're, they're kind, they're probably a little scared too, and they've got a pride and, or sometimes they've got pride. Sometimes they've got all these external emotions and feelings going on as well. If you can normalize the, your role as a guidance to help them normalize the rest of their life it's no different than you picking up a patient that's gonna have a respiratory illness for the rest of their life and normalizing them, taking care of themselves with a, with a treatment plan. Normalizing somebody transitioning into a, like, hey, a diabetic state of life where they're gonna have to take care of themselves. We've given plenty of resources for that. we've given plenty of protocol and sci. The science is there to show you how to live a good, healthy life. Once you kind of become that, I mean, like, I keep using that word, that kinetic patient because you've experienced it and now it's part of your life. But we really don't give the real, the gut tools to us to help normalize that patient in a mental health situation. That's at least on my take of it. So normal is what stood out to me. How those were the few things that jumped into my brain and how, how I was trying to equate it. So, but it's
Vince:
00:39:14
making it normal and it's making it realistic, yeah. We gotta be realistic
Tyler:
00:39:18
about it. Well, you really gotta put a human definition to it. You can't just when you say normalization, you can't just take the Webster. Definition for it. You really have to, it's your this. Exactly. And you gotta create this like a culture around it too. It's okay to normalize it, you know it at the initial training level, so, and that's a
Chris:
00:39:42
good point cuz I I could tell you like from where I started walking the it wasn't my first time going to aa. I had gone to AA actually five years prior and tried to get sober and was for a year and then eventually kind of the disease came back. But normal for me back in may. It is not the normal that I have now. It's, it's been in flux because it's just like a diabetic. As you learn more someone recently just got out cardiac surgery. As you learn more about the diseases, we learn more about the treatment and your routine. You adjust those things and, and you find more tools and more resources and apply different people's perspective to you. And I kind of borrow from here and there and, and create what works for me. So also I think it's important to know that whatever your normal is now may not be your normal in a week or two weeks, or in, in a year. So you have, and that's okay. Like that's, that's growth, right? But how do we create I, I, because you're using Kinetic and you're using potential. So how do we create the action potential, right? So how do we improve the action potential of going from potential to kinetic, right? What did you look at those barrier? Fear, ego, pride. You mentioned some of those alcoholism, substance abuse depression. Yeah, I could go on with the list, but how do you create a better action potential to make it more easily flow from potential to kinetic? You break it down and then you start giving them the tools early on so that when they actually are in that potential pre potential, right, so they're an action potential at that point. Before they get to a potential, they actually have the tools and some knowledge and some resources about, Hey, I know I'm burned out, or I feel depressed and it's okay and I need to go seek treatment or, or find ways to help out with that. Right. Versus. I don't have that action potential and I'm just now going through my career and all of a sudden I hit that. Now I'm the potential and I don't have anything. I've never been taught anything. Hopefully I got someone that I reach out to who may have walked that line or walked that path before that can help guide me or not, and I'm left to my own and that's a 50 50 at that point. I think we see the trends going more like 70 30, so how do we how do we lead up on that action potential on the front end? For me, it's always been we gotta start teaching this stuff in our curriculum, in the programs early on. Start it early so it doesn't become such a big problem when we get there, because hell, if I know how to plug a pipe, as soon as it starts cracking, I can duct tape that. I can figure out ways to mitigate that leak versus. For I, I just, okay, I'm gonna ignore it and I'm gonna continue to ignore it because I'm scared. I don't wanna deal with this broken pipe cuz I've never fixed a broken pipe before, so maybe it'll just go away and then eventually it burst and now I don't even know how to deal with that. Maybe there's a plumber nearby that can come help me. Maybe there's not, I'm gonna flood my whole house. Those are the analogies we gotta start breaking down because then it makes sense, right? It seems like I just had a normal conversation. I actually wasn't talking about mental health and being depressed and, and needing help and not being you see what I'm saying? You can normalize a conversation different ways without calling it what it is. You mentioned Vince, you know when you, or, or sorry, Tyler you're going to a checklist, right? They're asking HR questions and doing the HR dance. I can challenge you that if I was aware of what those questions were to just a regular conversation, maybe using those as a guide, I could probably have a conversation with you and get all those questions and learn more about you and things like that. That's what we don't take the time to do, because we just sit here and read a paper and go, well, Chris, have you ever thought about hurting yourself or anybody today? Well, yeah. Okay, well check. Okay. Next one. Do you wanna talk about that versus, Hey, Chris how's your day going? Have you had any intrusive thoughts? Yeah, I'm not feeling so great. I keep thinking about maybe hurting myself, man, that sucks. You know what? What kind of thoughts are you having? Have you thought about how to do it or are you feeling alone? You see how I was able to have a connection? on that initial acute side, that initial side. So not only do I feel so passionate about getting the training education early on to our to those clinicians and frontline staff, but also making sure that the people that are receiving that inbound when they're asking for help, they know what they're doing and they're actually a human and they're being compassionate and empathetic to that individual. And I know when I talk to another first responder, especially if I don't know them, but I know they're here to help me, I'm a lot more forthcoming. I'm a lot more engaged. They understand and can relate where I'm coming from. They can help talk and give me some things initially that will set in path, the motion of that snowball. What's gonna happen downstream, it's gonna set up the maintenance or not. So there's a couple critical points I see is that action potential that you mentioned, getting it out early on, and then also having people there to help with the transition from potential to kinetic. we've gotta have better people there that are more trained, more aware, and more human, more likely. I mean, I'm serious. I got treated like a, and I joke about this cuz I got to a point like that when I was flying. You get, so you, you're just in that routine of just flight after flight that you're just like, okay dude, on the co you just treat 'em like a, like I'm shipping something from up s That's exactly how I felt going through this whole process. There was no human aspect to it. Nobody cared about what I was doing. Only that was all my meds. They didn't care about checking in. They never brought me my dog. They denied everything. They broke a c l I mean, I'm serious and, and this is a place I went to that's supposed to specialize in this stuff. How do you think that set me up for everything else that followed? Not in a good thing I would, but they gave you a pizza party. They gave me a pizza party.
Tyler:
00:45:17
Yeah.
Chris:
00:45:19
So that's the realistic goodbye. It's crazy. Yeah. They give you a bed, they give you three meals a day, they make sure you're taking your meds per the state. And that's it. Like once again, we don't provide that. And that's one of the things that I like about and one of my long-term goals with the Wound and Met Foundation, is to have the ability to provide that initial touch. Yes. Instead of going to a mental health institution, why don't you come out on a mental health retreat? Yes. Right. You see the difference there. I'm gonna go to a prison while I'm scared. Now I have fear I'm gonna be with other patients, other people that I've had to treat with. Why would I ever want to go to that fricking purgatory? Yeah. Hey, I'm gonna go up in the mountains. I'm gonna go fishing, I'm gonna go hiking. I'm gonna talk to somebody else who's walking the road. Similarly, you may have some tools, you might be able to help me with my, my kinetic energy. And I'm getting out, away from technology. I'm getting away from all the stressors of the world, all that stress, and I'm actually just being real. I'm being naked and I'm being raw. Right? That, and that was one of the things I loved about the Crash and Learn conference. It just was a, it was an actor thought, right? It was something that just happened. But that, that conference created a community where you had people connecting and sharing, and we were talking about mental health and story. I mean, dude, it was so cool. But I left that conference like it was a retreat, man. Like I, I learned some cool shit. But more importantly, man, I f my, my cup was filled, man. I felt so just connected to the community. I, I didn't feel all of those things. Why aren't we doing more stuff like, Taking a different approach outside the box because you know what's working is not working and we all just need to be honest and face the truth that if it really isn't working very well, could it be better? Yeah, I'm sure it can. And, and that's not for me. I'm not the end all, be all. I'm not the, the expert on this one. There's way smarter people out there than me, but I have an objective perspective. I've lived it, I've walked it for six years. I've gone through all the experiences I think you could probably go through in an event like that without not actually expiring. So I'm gonna
Vince:
00:47:15
licensed you on that. I'm gonna licensed you on it because I do believe you're the expert on this, right? And I think a lot of people get so hung up about like, oh, when it comes to an expertise, they're thinking like physicians and psychiatrists and people way above who are able to assess somebody's brain. And it's like truly though, do they understand? The extent of what kind of damage we've seen or done the people, the greatest assets and tools in our toolbox is each other, and I think in, in my, in my perspective on it years ago when I was Tyler was, was, was a witness to this cause vetch, he came in and he helped me out out of it. But there was a time where I was in a, in a dark spot as well, and I tried reaching out to those resources that our employers have to give us. And I was realizing like, they don't know what we go through. Like I'm just talking and trying to word vomit, but they're just rying it down and they're, they're not really making it relatable. So I found a resource and I wish I still had it run down somewhere. But it was a a phone support. And they connected me to a chief out of New York City who was able to say, Hey, I worked the job with you. I understand where you're going through, I've been there, here's what I've done to get out of it. And that's where we kind of picked up on it and be like, I wanna work with people who are relatable, who are, who are, are able to understand. And a saying that stuck with me forever was that you have to surround yourself in a community of consequences. And although that's not quite a holistic word, if you think about it though, if you surround yourself and people who are disciplined, who are, who are willing to pick you up and not allow you to fall down, like both of you, if I were to call you and say, Hey, I had a bad day, and I decided not to go out and, and go do something fun, or, or even go to the gym, one of you would say, go to the F and gym and make sure that I'm accountable. And that's where it's accountability,
Chris:
00:49:02
right? It's a safe community, right? Yep. It comes back to connection because you feel connected, you feel safe and accountable, right? Like if, and it's a good thing. I mean, for example, like everybody knows I'm trying to stay sober, right? So like when I went to a mtc, when I go out to places, I know that everybody else knows. I'm trying to say silver. So that helps me stay accountable to not go be tempted to pick up a drink. Yes. Right. Or not be tempted to do something that I never otherwise would not want to do. Right. Because they knew who I am. Like Chris isn't like you, like, what's going on, man? And I did, man, I, I had a bad time. Am mtc I had a, had a a got into a little bit of a struggle and I had someone there, Dave Vera, that help me out, man. And he's been a but his community, I have you, I have Dave, I have Sal Dylan. I, I have people that I can call and I'll tell you the hardest thing is making that first call. But once you get in the habit of making those calls and I need help, just, it's okay. I need help. For me, I just, I text out green that tells everybody it's a code green. I need help, I need, I need somebody to reach out. It's a very simple word that I can text that it has no stigma, no attachment. That there's no mental fear barrier. Right. It's just like when everybody says a port, A port of port, it's like, what if you just say yellow? Right? Like it's easier to say yellow than it is a port of Port of port. Cuz when you say a port of port, port, like your mind thinks like, oh shit. Like the whole, no. But if you come up with an inconsequential word that means the exact same thing and everybody understands it well that is one way you can reduce the barrier. Yeah. Instead of calling us help, Hey, I need support. Why don't we get that, Hey, I need, I need support. I don't need help. You support. I need you to, I need support of holding me up. I need support of guiding me when I can't make the right decisions for myself. I need support because I don't know what to do next. And I need guidance. That is a better word. It's the same thing as saying help, but what we're saying is we're changing the word and making it less fearful man. You're breaking the stigma that way. Yeah, because maybe that catches on. Maybe we couldn't get help to catch on, but maybe support is the one that works. Right. I don't know, but these are things that we have to be doing, trying, talking, and having discussions like this. Tyler, I know you're still back there, man. What do you got?
Tyler:
00:51:08
I'm all, I, I'm for it. That's, I'm trying to formulate my thought with that it comes down in the communication aspect of it and ultimately we're not, I mean, maybe one of us in this conversation here has got like a communications degree or something like that. I don't, I think it's fake, but yeah.
Chris:
00:51:27
What if I just like to talk a lot? Does that count? That's right. No,
Tyler:
00:51:31
it, it, that's the next part with, with equipping tools is the right questions, the right culture to, to get these pe get us all included is is then the communication tool. So normalizing terms, normalizing speech, bringing it away from negatives and, and positives and kind of neutralizing words. That's it because it's, we're a vast communities. There's, there's inner city to, from big Chicago to little rural southwest Michigan where I'm at. There's, there's different ways you gotta communicate that. And, and like I said, it's that hard subject to normalize because it's so individual to the person, to the region, to the culture, circumstances of the crisis, the culture of it. So I'm, yeah, I'm for using neutral terms cuz it just a, sounds professional when you, when you're talking about it. If you're having a provi a a within thin line member patient contact when you're at work or if you are helping people that you work with or if you're that one in that case that is truly what you what we need to is, is definitely identify co communicative skills or you case you can't standardize it. That's the hardest part with it. You can't make, but you can always just identify great practices and what works for you might work for people in different locations, different areas, different cultures of it. So my, yeah, like mine brought really direct people, people around here, and I, my folk typically they're usually pretty aggressive. That's the hard part too for, I would say the 60 40 when I deal with mental health as a provider. It's, it's an aggressive approach in the, it's kind of hard to have neutral and, and. Kind of versus a border board board or you change it to a color. It's, it's kind of hard to have that when people just already naturally have colorful language So it is, that's, that's a skillset too, in its own and how to cuz it's, it's kind of weird and I don't wanna shame like a, like a, like a like therapist or somebody who deals with that in a clinical setting in an office, but they usually have a very calm demeanor in sense. And I'm not saying you need to match people's energy, but you need to convince them that you're with them on this and you're, you're, you're, you're in the same boat. And it, that's a skill set all on its own. And I, and that kind of brought me back to what Vincent said kind of clarifying who the real expert on this is. Somebody who's studied a lot of research and done controlled clinicals or you who live it. every day That's one of my favorite. It's not a, it's like the old, like fire thing. A good fire is not, it is kind of bad. My favorite thing, which is really not my favorite, but when I am on a call like this, I do have identified individuals that aren't trained in a, in any, any more than the next guy. They're, they're, they're licensed but yeah, I know their life. I know they've been through it, and I know when to say, I'm not the best person to talk to this person, and I can put the right player. And they can connect on a level that's the expert. And to be honest, he is a, he is a one year firefighter. He's just getting into it, but he's come with a life experience. He's at the kinetic level and he's able. Really connect and he's had some crazy variables thrown at him and he handled 'em just kind of as we expected, as the best person to handle that situation. So knowing your team is another aspect of it too, in, in trying to find the right person to connect. If I knew of, and if somebody addressed me, cuz some sometimes it finds you and then they bring it up to you, which is great. I love like self-identified when they somebody is experiencing something and if Vince is the better person to talk to, I'm not gonna try to pawn it off on Vince, but I'm gonna truly advocate and still follow up with and try to be a part of it and, and bring Vincent to it as well. So I on, on that topic, communication is, that's the big gray area. Secondary to like, normalizing and what is mental health and that's that's, that's your best Combative, like set of tools to, to help somebody mitigate a situation or a crisis. And, and that's the hardest thing to teach somebody is how to be a good communicator. So,
Chris:
00:56:38
well, I, I like how you put that, Tyler. So there's two things that I liked about what you just said. So the first thing being communication. I do think we need to be better at communicating about, I also recognized that communication can be a barrier, and that one of those fears is a very big barrier for people to ask for help. So one of the thoughts that I had with the wound medic homepage was basically to create a crisis video library, right? It could be other people sharing their experiences on depression on this, because maybe you don't have that courage to actually reach out to someone just yet. We want to get you to that point. But maybe you're not quite good at the critical stage hey, you got a place that you could just go watch other people talk about their story, right? And you hopefully can take something away. is, is that something that I don't know but it's one of those ideas that I had that I go, well, maybe that helps make things a little bit more normal, more accessible. Because maybe they don't want to ask for help. They can't pick up the phone, they can't text, they can't physically say, I need help, but maybe they can find some supporting tools. Hey, I'm struggling with two I'm having some bad thoughts. What are some things that other people have done to get through those bad thoughts? Right? And what does that mean? So it's just looking out outside the box in different ways. Then the other thing that I like that how you put it is you need that that expert, that expert is someone who has walked it in my personal opinion there's, there's clinical experts, right? But then there's subject matter experts, and I, I think you look at that as those are the people that walked into the fire and they made it out. I'm not saying they made it out whole, they had made it out burned. I mean, I sure shit didn't, but I made it out. I made it out twice. I don't ever want to go back in on my own fire again, but doesn't mean I don't know how now have the tools to go help someone else and pull them out of their fire or their fog is what I call it. And I like, I wanna pull a little bit of AA in here I only know how to do this based on what I've gone through. Right. And that's what that person's doing so everybody's different on how they help someone work through that kinetic por portion of it. I like how you put like, Hey, if I'm not the right person, I'm gonna try to guide it to to Vince. And then follow, still follow up, right? You should still be following up. Hey, I'm gonna check in with vi Hey Vince, I got this going on. That's experience. And so I think by creating more of those experiences, right, more of those opportunities at work, and I. and then provide those own in individual mentors or whatever you wanna call them, that are helping those individuals through it, provide them with some growing resources and tools, right? Like what I learned before is, like I said, different than what I know now five months later cuz I'm continuing to upkeep, continuing to learn more things. And so having some tools and resources for those individuals so I think you could look at communication and absolutely we need to improve how we're communicating it, how they're accessing the information or, or needing to get ahold of that. Especially with generation X, Y, and Z. They're different. They're not thinking the way that the old salty dog was 20 years before me and they're not thinking in the way I am. So we gotta adapt and you have to have different tools of communication. but I love what you said, Tyler. I think it's great and, and hopefully what I would like to see is a, the, the barriers come down, the fear barrier of how to get resources and how to ask for support. And more importantly, I think the a the follow up, right Vince? So, yeah. Giving, giving other people tools that they don't know what they're doing, they're just walking the life. I'm just walking the life. I don't, I'm just doing what I've, what I've learned and what I've gone through my experiences. But wouldn't it be nice if I had some other resources to continue to learn so I could continue to be a better provider and, and I could help. set that person up on a kinetic state that is of maintenance and continue to support them, but maybe they go on to help somebody else. And that's how we it's, it's a holistic approach. We gotta change the culture, the thought, the stigmatism, communication leaders, people that can actually go into fire and pull people out there are trained to do it, or maybe they just, they become resilient, and unfortunately, I, I feel like I just became resilient. I had two choices. I could either die or I could live. And that was honestly the decision I had to make. And I chose to live. And because I chose to live, this is now the path that I'm on, and I'm okay with it. So wanna see where it goes and continue to listen to other people have discussions like this, because I, I picked up so much from you and Vince and Tyler today, just by having
Vince:
01:00:55
a conversation, right? Right. And I, I do know that communication's hard, right? It is, it is probably the most challenging thing human beings have, but also first responders, military, we're stubborn. We're very short worded and it's communication sucks, but a lot of time it's just a matter of communication through a physical essence. And I found myself recently someone called me out on it cause I picked up the phone when they called me and I was like, what are you doing man? And that was what I usually say. And now he's like, why do you always ask what I'm doing? Cuz traditional people are saying, Hey, how are you? How are you doing? To me it's like, if I, if I could figure out what you're doing that's telling me how you're doing if you're out there having fun and, and on a hobby, going fishing, if I call Tyler and Tyler picks up, he's like, I'm in the middle of nowhere, woods doing some hunting. I know he's doing fine. You know what I mean? But I wanna know. It's not, it's not that I don't wanna know you're struggling. I wanna know what you're doing about it. What's your, what's your goal from here on out? And with the essence of like, how do we find a code word? Can we use yellow or green? Even that could be challenging for some people, so, Chris, let me ask you one question. What does a challenge coin do mean to you?
Chris:
01:02:10
A challenge coin for me in what it means to me is, is I got two different ones. I got my a once and I have the ones from my community, my fire services, things like that. Initially I would say that challenge coin meant like pride, honor, things like that. Over the years it took on more of like a machismo, ego kind of meaning connotation. Yeah. So for me, like the challenge coin is just like my patches on my wall. I got challenge coins over here. Yep. Well, it, it's a decoration piece and, and I'm, I'm proud of those cuz those are the connections I make and there's memories upon that, but it doesn't have the same kind of connotation and it did when I first started. Right now, when I look at my A one, it's like that actually means something to me. Like that is that 30 day chip, that one month chip, that three month chip, that nine that six month chip, like those actually for me carry a lot of weight and it's the currency of your.
Vince:
01:03:00
It's
Chris:
01:03:01
the currency of my success. Exactly. Of my personal success, not of other people's success, not what they're doing. It's my own personal success. Yes. And I've had to set those goals up and have others help me keep accountable to 'em so I can achieve them. And that's a community, that's the support that we're talking about.
Vince:
01:03:16
Right. So I wanna up this more than just a word. We have these challenge coins made, right? For the WTL podcast. Yeah. And what I asked for it, and let me get, it's, it's sorry it's all blurry. But what I asked for it, for the design is the say, the saying of exel excellence is your responsibility. One team, one fight, and on the back, plain and simple honor. Right? And my challenge for these members who want to be part of this organization, to be part of the Wounded Medic Foundation, to be part of this community that we're trying to build is that go back to historic, where people were actually carrying these in these in their pockets. Right? This is something they took its value. You probably do with your AA coins at this point. I do. Right? You carry your currency of excellence. And for me, if, if someone were to say or send us a picture, right? Whether it's email, text, or whatever it is, they throw that currency on the table, everything stops. We focus on you. Right? No judgment. No, no current. Like you don't have to pay for anything. It's just we'll call you, we'll sit down with you, we'll come out to you. Let's figure out what's going on. What is it that you're currently struggling with, that you took that outta your pocket and you to let go of it, put it on the table. It's almost like a token for our attention, right? Yeah. And you get to keep it. You get to maintain it. we have, we have officers now for our city who are carrying them in their vests. Right? Just to be able to have that mindset. If you carry something, it's like, all right, I'm not gonna forget that if I'm struggling, I got something in here that's currency, right? Yep. I've turned my, my garage into a cigar lounge and I have officers come up on, on their, on duty or off duty. I open up the garage. They could sit down and have a smoke, get away from public view, and just relax for a moment, right? Yeah. Have that safe space. And that's where we really want to build in this foundation, and nonetheless, it's all about, it's all about building a community. It's about building these, these partnerships. It's about doing something for the greater good, which is the success of our first responders in the military and that's what we're thriving for. So I'd love to see where we could send these out, build more, maybe make it even more a full metal, whatever, but just have our, our viewers and our members carry them. and then that be the the phrase word of saying, Hey, I need support.
Chris:
01:05:33
I like that. I mean, it's just like when you're at a bar and someone you know from a sister department wants to challenge you basically, cuz they want to get a free drink outta you, that's, that's all it is. It's just that's what it turned into. But you look at the root heritage of where that came from and and I like how you said that there are challenge points that I do actually have a lot of weight. This is one that was given to me by heavy lies to helmet. Yes. And it has a similar kind of meaning of what you're talking about. Right. And, and it's those things that actually do mean a lot, right? Like this coin was given to me with the story behind it and confidence it was personable than that I own, I hold that dear to my heart and having something like that, like a challenge coin where you're right, like my aco, like if I'm struggling, I'm having a, a bad moment or something like that. Like it's in my pocket, that's my currency to go, Hey do I really wanna play this one? Because if I have that drink, I'm gonna play this coin. And guess what? I don't get this coin anymore. and it's a reminder to go, Hey, this coin is actually more valuable to me than that, that that beverage will ever be. So just like you're saying, that is my line of safety. This is something that I know that once again, it's not October or anything, it's just you throw on a table, you text a picture of it out, everybody knows what it means. Hey. Yep. Cool. I hear you. We're coming. We got your six brother. Yep. Or sister, we're coming. We hear you. We see you. And things that we don't talk about, like dispatchers, things like that. How do we get these guys and gals more involved in the community and the communication, because it's across the board and I feel like they're very segmented. So and these were, were we have good ideas with podcasts, so those of you guys are listening. If you guys are sharing this stuff or having those communications, share your ideas of what you think might work, right. Because we need to have more of those conversations. I would highly encourage it.
Vince:
01:07:16
Yep. Take
Tyler:
01:07:18
collectively, they the listeners and future listeners are more experts than just the three of us put together if
Chris:
01:07:26
we're going down there. That's why you got a community. Yep. When I talk about aa, it's like, what, what kept you sober? Was it you? No, it wasn't me. It was my community. It was my habit, my routine. My normalization of my, of my struggles. Really over time that's, that's what brings it power. And more importantly, that's what keeps me going and keeps me on track, right? Like, I'm in a great mood today, this week I've been awesome. Why? Because I'm doing everything. I'm maintaining it. What I do find is when you start slacking off on it, I'm not doing it. I'm not taking time for myself, I'm not working out. I'm not getting it in the hot tub. I'm not reading, not doing those things. Guess what? I start feeling a little bit more anxious, a little bit more snippy, a little bit agitated. It's a sign and I become more I can recognize that now. I go, ah, why am I off? Ah, well you haven't been doing your normalization routine. Okay, cool. And I have to do it every day. Just like a diabetic has to do it. Just like an asthmatic has to take, if I don't do this stuff, it's gonna come back. It's always there. You learn how to be resilient. You learn how to carry it and have it not be so burdensome. More importantly, you learn how and when you need to take that pack back off and set it down or hand it off to somebody else. So keep going. I love this mission. I'm very passionate about it, and I would love this here. Just more conversation pieces about what other people are doing about this, because you never know what you're doing might actually help save somebody else. Yep. But you gotta get it out there. If nobody knows about it, you don't say it. You don't put it out in words like you should. If it's in here in your head, that helps you. Hopeful. But what we can do better about is helping others and being more involved. And that just comes by just having a good conversation. How you doing today? Mm-hmm. how's your life? Because you can get so much from someone about where they're at and what their state of mind is. So
Vince:
01:09:12
hold each other accountable. We always, when, especially when it comes to ConEd our, our systems and our companies and agencies, they're big about, did you finish this month's ConEd? Are you ready to renew? And everything is about the practice of what we do, but then there's nothing out there that's real. Like, what are we doing for mental health? right? Is there Con Ed for mental health? Is
undefined:
01:09:32
there,
Chris:
01:09:32
what are we doing to invest in our employee? The person, right? That's right. Because what we're, what we're looking at is a business transaction. Yes. I have a call. They provide a service. I pay them for that service. Right. That's exactly what's happening. And I hate that. Cuz we used to have the community in the in and in the courage and, and that mindset of, Hey, I'm an employee, I'm a loyal employee, but you're also a family member and I care about who you are. I care about what's going on in your life. I care about if you're having marital struggles. Because all of that actually does impact my business as an employee or as an owner. We just gotta shift the mindset. It's not a business transaction anymore guys. And it never was. Yeah. This is real people. They are dedicating their lives, their mental health states, their family, their future. to that employer, right? Like it's, it's mind blowing. If you actually sit back like what the actual provider actually commits to when they go accept a job. I'm accepting that I'm gonna, whatever's gonna come downstream, I'm gonna accept the calls, I'm gonna accept the trauma. And that sets me up for my entire rest of my life. I could be a five year medic work for a really bad agency and a bad system and burnout and begun and be gone in five years and never wanna look back. Yep. And it's happening now. Know I see more and more medics, I'm sorry, going to C NRN school, going to PA school, going to nursing school. Mm-hmm I don't see a lot of people going, Hey, I'm going to med school. I don't see near as many of those anymore. so just
Vince:
01:10:56
Tyler, right? Just Tyler
Chris:
01:11:00
Better late than never Tyler. That's right. It's okay. We welcome you to Club Open arms.
Vince:
01:11:05
Hundred percent. So what do we do? right? So what do we do? We
Chris:
01:11:09
go with this foundation where, where do we go from here? That's a good conversation. I think one of the things that we'd like to start especially with the viewers announcing a partnership between WAC Foundation and with infant lines with infant lines have always been your mission, your purpose is exactly aligned with what WAC Foundation does, which is having the conversation, normalizing the conversation in different types of conversations, whether it be addiction, substance abuse, depression, burnout. We're gonna start having these conversations and we're gonna start opening it up. We're gonna start, hopefully, creating tools and resources for people to get this stuff on demand and not have that fear as a barrier of just talking another human. Maybe that's the, maybe that one little step is what allows that individual to A, not go kill themselves, but B, take the next step into being that. Portion of it. So I think a partnership between the two having within them lines of the official podcast of Etic Foundation is definitely an honor. I can't wait to see the synergy and more importantly, continuing to foster that message and that safe space in that community. You do the same stuff that I I'm out here snow blowing old people's driveways in the morning, right. You're doing a, giving back to our community. It's just more than just one thing. And I think that speaks highly of the mission. And like I said, when I talked about my story, I don't want anybody to go through the experience that I want through, and I want there to be another option that they're aware of. And the only way we can make 'em aware of it is a, to create it and do something about it, and then communicate it as Tyler.
Vince:
01:12:40
Hundred percent. And first foremost, I mean, honor is all ours. You know what I mean? The, we've looked up to you, I mean, from joining, joining the Imed C m E collection to, to our final first release of an episode that's accredited to now being a partner with you and, and the greater good of the survivability of our first responders. I mean, that, that is a, a huge privilege for us and we, we we're honored to be here. We're gonna build this up to something even greater. I would love to see where we're, we're pushing out more content and specific of this, this conversation. Having the umbrella of the conversation, talking about training, talk about work ethic, talk about coming out and picking up hobbies, but then ultimately just checking up on each other, doing that, that buddy check, yeah. How to do a buddy check,
Chris:
01:13:23
how do I talk to someone who's going through a tough time? How do you initiate that conversation? A lot of people don't know when they're fearful, so they never even start it. So this is what one of the things that Vince and Tyler and the with Infant Lines team does very well. And, and we're gonna continue to perpetuate and amplify that communication and that message.
Vince:
01:13:42
Yep. So on our distribution of, of information when it comes to contact and how to reach us, we have a link. And on that we're gonna post the Wound Medic Foundation Facebook page some of the email contact as well to be able to contact you directly but ultimately it's just saying that challenge is here, this is open, this is open door. We welcome everybody who is a part of this community, even the family members who we wanna see family members be part of that. Cause our greatest asset and our greatest tools is what we're coming home to
Chris:
01:14:11
our, our support. And I've been asked, you'd be, you'd be surprised since I kicked off the WMA Foundation, I've been asked by a lot of spouses of first responders. what resources do you have? Who and I, and that actually caught me off guard. So it's one of my things that I'm hoping to implement in 2023 is, is a support group for the spouses of first responders and military personnel, because they're at just as big of a shock as the individual themselves, if not more. Mm-hmm. So we're
Vince:
01:14:38
actually doing a buddy check tomorrow on a veteran who's, who's been he's unfortunately succumbed to alcohol, right? He is isolated himself. It's been three years. And the person who reached out to us for his help is a spouse, mm-hmm. He was able to encounter Dan, one of our cadre members, started the conversation, normalized the idea, like, Hey, somebody's having a bad day, let's go figure it out and we're gonna go do buddy check tomorrow for him. We're gonna go out and drive two hours, or go check up on him, have a seat with him. And just normalize the mindset of like, Hey, we've got veterans on our team. We got first responders. He used to be a cop. What can we do now to get you back on your feet? and that's there we go. Ultimately, that, that's the goal. So family is a big aspect of this. It's not
Chris:
01:15:20
going outta your way though, because you love to do this. No, it's not.
Vince:
01:15:22
It's not, you
Chris:
01:15:23
know, so I wanna licensed you. Like, if you guys here, like this is not us going outta the way. This is us doing what we love to do. Right. And that's, and, and hopefully if you're listening to this, you're a part of this community, you're, you're doing something similar. You could, it could be something as small as taking the trash from your neighbor in who's elderly to checking in on a friend who might be going through something or a family member who might be struggling, but it all starts with you in action.
Vince:
01:15:45
Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. And that's the goal we want, is to be able to see these numbers. And, and I've talked about this before and a lot of people wonder like, how many viewers do you have? Like, yeah, we have, we have means and access to be able to count that, but it's not the viewers we're looking for. It's the people who were saying, Hey, coming to us saying, Hey, I'm struggling. I need help. Those are the numbers we really stick to, and we're really built big. So we're gonna achieve that tomorrow. And that's, that's kind of a goal of the show here. But how do we make this into a bigger thing? When it comes to family and first responders, eventually I'd love to see our podcast table. Mikes nothing but family members where we're stepping out and they're running the show or the episode to talk about what they do and how, how they manage, how they cope. So that's that's a big aspiration. We're gonna do some
Chris:
01:16:27
good. Yeah. I think there're gonna be some good, good content, good discussions and good podcasts coming out. And more importantly moving to some in-person events. You wanna talk about some of those? Yes. Yes. Or Tyler? Tyler. Where's Tyler's? That's,
Vince:
01:16:40
this is Tyler's world here. All, all,
Chris:
01:16:48
well
Tyler:
01:16:49
with kind of that wounded medic and inspiration. This is something me and Vince and, and I have my little niche in the world, and Vince always loves to hone on it when it comes to the Recreation, the natural world, getting away from lights and sirens. So future events we're looking at setting some stuff up where we can start introducing people to kinda recreate in a way that's in their backyard at a level that they can all accomplish and do, and something they can continue to do. It's not a lot of these events there's different organizations and foundations out there. They like to just do something and, and, and have a good time. They do some good work, takes pictures, call it a day and go home. We're looking to kind of build our team through these events a little bit, and that person who goes through whatever we, whatever we get established currently, we've got one event scheduled this spring will be Taking a bunch of people out fishing. It'll be a fishing event with that's already been established. I was kind of fortunate enough to, I have a relationship with the, the captain that the charters and he puts on this on his own. And the one he was having some a light year where some people canceled and they wanted know if I'd come up and help fish and, and or fish and help him and, and enjoy it. And he's doing a great thing. So there's people out there already doing it without a name, without an organization, our organization. So we're gonna be starting to kick that off and we're gonna be shaping in how we do that. So that's my little niche. It's all about what you as an individual bring to the table. As far as you out there listening in the world, what can you do to help better health? For me, all I know when things are stressful, I run. Where there's not people there is a woods, a lake or somewhere, and I am on like, it's just kind of an unspoken thing between me and my wife. She knows. Just gives me the head nod and I'm, I'm, I'm out. Obviously with all household things taken care of, of course, but that's where I go. So I'm gonna try to allow my ability and my little niche in the world what I like to do and provide it for other people and start building that communication where we can talk about culture, where we can talk about communication skills, where we can talk about people who have been there, who have seen family, friends, patients, been there. Maybe that new introductory initial training law enforcement officer, firefighter where we can just start to A, physically gather and then, and B, enjoy each other. Show you a resource or a rec way to recreate in which you may not know or know, have no experience in that's in your backyard that you can pick up or teach somebody else, or just, just enjoy the day. Say it was great, enjoy the fellowship and continue the conversation on. So that's what we're looking to do here. We've got
Chris:
01:20:16
a couple hopeful, hopefully meet some new friends that you can now reach out to and text that's the important thing it's like, Hey, I now met so many people through Crash and learn that now. It's like, Hey, if I have a, I have more people. I got more, more people part of my tribe now, and it's awesome through those connections. Yep. Yep.
Vince:
01:20:33
So our
Tyler:
01:20:33
aspirations, partnerships with it too. Yeah. That, that's the the biggest thing so far with charting to set this up. This solely turned into knowing a guy with a business who's just wanted to do this out of the goodness of his heart. No, no. Like I said, that's, that's what he did. I seen what he was doing and then that relationship has already there, but then it's grown to a few, cuz he is got a few other guys in his industry that do the same thing. So we which is what I've, so whether you wanna enjoy the day with us or, or as a member of that outing, or if you wanna be a partner and say, Hey, I like doing whatever blank this is what I'm good at, this is what I have established. Hey, I'd love to do this or put this on, we'll take it, we'll run with it as fast as we can in whatever direction we see and what we can do to put more people. in the outdoors into that source of recreation to try to help find those, those balancing for their mental health or this whole conversation we just had, so,
Chris:
01:21:44
With the W Mag Foundation, that's kind of like we've taken the similar model we, we did this year with just like the first retreat. We're gonna do a couple kind of bigger cheats in 2023, just a less than a handful as we kind of learned the process and things like that. But the whole idea with the W Mag Foundation is hopefully to grow into more like the I F F model where there are a state chapter and there's local chapters that the head she can support because it's not just about getting out we could be setting up like waterpark days or go to the pool day or movie day or backyard barbecue day or go to the bowling alley. There's other things. The whole idea is not necessarily getting remote obviously I like her remote. I'm like you Tyler, but it's to create those opportunities for connection. Discussion more importantly, right? And we, what we've found is we have to create the opportunity. Nobody's gonna go out there and do it for us, right? We, we, were all sitting here waiting for somebody to do it, and we're just now having to do it. And that's what we're doing here. on those conversations. So it's you guys are gonna start seeing in probably in 2024, at least with the Women Medic Foundation, we're gonna start supporting these local popup events where, hey they, they reach out it could be the state organization, the local organization, right? They fill out a form, Hey, we want to have 20 providers. We wanna provide pizza. This is how much money we need. And through obviously the generalist supports of donors and members of the organization we're able to fund events like that to create that initiative. Right? You get it kind of Steamboat, because I, I, I share your your sentiment, Tyler, and, and that I feel like this is a way to really get traction and break down some barriers pretty quickly, but we gotta create the opportunities for that to happen. Exactly. You're seeing the people take the lead now, like within thin lines and you guys are doing it, so, yeah. And I'm happy to be a part of that. So I know you, you, you guys mentioned some of the podcasts going into some of the, the, the colleges and training programs and things like that and just having a conversation like I'm like, Hey, that's great. Maybe we can see if we can do this in some other parts of the country as well. So, exactly. That would be a problem. Great idea to come. Yeah. Well, it all starts with a conversation and, Hey, you had a great idea. Hey, cool. I like that. I'm gonna go try to run with it and be creative. And that's all it is. People listen and it's just, don't, don't say it's don't worry about what, whose idea it is. Just go do it. Exactly. Take it, run with it. It, it was your idea. Okay, I'll just say it right now. It was your idea. Just do it. Just
Vince:
01:24:07
do it for the greater
Tyler:
01:24:08
good. When we started cutting teeth, you know when, when Vince finally. Got some microphones in front of us way back in the day on just the art of conversation. So it was just, let's just start talking. Let's just, like, these are things that we clearly all see. We joke, we sometimes don't joke. It's a serious manner, but it was, it was the art of the conversation. Then we found ourselves with all these other different organizations and, and we'd love being partners with 'em, and we love the art of conversation about they wanted whatever outing they had. So now it's just I kind of flipped back to the challenge coin a minute ago. When, yes. You know what a challenge coin, at least for me, is when I receive one, it's whatever for I, I got more paper weights than anything, but it's, it's the, how can I recipro, reciprocate, man, I'll butcher that word every day, reciprocate what I've done. To the next person to give them the tools, give them the ability to do the same experience, or the task that I the opportu that I had to do in whatever opportunity or circumstances were. So does this kind of grow as we love having the conversation. We love having any conversation about any foundation or any topic. We're passionate about mental health. But then I we kind of looked at each other and I looked at myself and said, you know what, what have Ive done and had the opportunity to do through some other different organizations. And now that's my challenge, is to just keep extending it, keep extending a conversation, keep extending resource and out outreach. And then just pushing ourselves and growing and doing more of us out there.
Chris:
01:25:59
Perfect. And that's what we're doing. We're, we're this, this, this is at least for me, this is the, this is the battle cry. This is it. I'm calling it out. I'm, I'm challenging everybody out there, do something. This is it. It could be a little as I, I give people a challenge. Text somebody, three people every morning. Just tell 'em one thing that you're appreciative of. That's all you gotta do. You know how much better that sets up my day personally. Mm-hmm. just by doing that, just showing gratitude. Mm-hmm. so mm-hmm. keep giving back when you get in that spot back, making sure you guys are all following within the line. So you guys know when these events are happening. Check us out on the WinMac fan. We'll have the, the, hopefully the website will be live by January 1st. And and this is, this is the start of the revolution. I'm not, I'm not listening and this is why I did education with, I met, I got tired of playing by other people's rules. the same rules I've been handcuffed and held accountable to this was the way we've always done it and I went out and set forth and did something on my own with other people that believed in me, that helped support me. And we, we can do this and we know that I've done it, we've tried it, and we're doing the same thing now. If you're out there, if you share our passion, if you share the message and whatever you can do to contribute something is better than nothing, we challenge you to start the rally, start the battle cry, normalize this stuff, have the conversations. You can have these conversations where they're not direct and they're not awkward. Hopefully some tools will come out soon that'll help you guys give those have those resources to have those conversations. So,
Vince:
01:27:31
absolutely. But keep. So stay tuned with us for the actual release of that date. It's gonna be sometime in March. I mean, ideally it's gonna turn into a conference and also efficient charting a lot of logistics stuff we're figuring out yet. But this is gonna be our first go and we'd love to see you all there. Reach out to us at, stay@wtlpodcast.us with your interest. Any questionnaires or even if you want to take our challenge and get a challenge coin we're willing to send these out to you be part of the community, start the conversation now and just grow into a family of first responders and, and military veterans. So with Chris, is there, what's the good website they could go to to support the Wounded Medic Foundation? Right
Chris:
01:28:11
now it just follows on our Facebook page. Once I have the memberships and the donor support portals up, hopefully in January we're gonna have memberships annual memberships for basically the providers where it gives 'em access to any of our pop-ups, any of the retreats that we do. And they'll also get a patch and a couple stickers to say thank you for their donation essentially. And that's an annual membership. And then we're also opening up and looking at corporate ownerships, things like that from other organizations and collaborating with other organizations as well to help provide this resource, whether it be a pre-con at a conference or other things like that. So this is evolving, but stay tuned. And once again, as Vince said, we can't do this without the community and the support of all of you. So we thank you guys for that support. We thank you for being a part of it and actually caring and being human. That's the important part. I think we lost touch, is we stopped caring about our fellow survivor cuz we were drowning ourselves. So now that some of us are recovering, let's see how many of those people we can help and, and change into that kinetic energy that Tyler refers to.
Vince:
01:29:09
Perfect. And in the meantime, you could also support us and the show and the WME Foundation through our patron. We also have Venmo and PayPal and all donations go to exactly, to the show. Exactly. The Emec Foundation, exactly to our mission to be able to support the rest of the first responder community. So before we leave closing thoughts, Chris,
Chris:
01:29:29
let's Good to have conversations like this. I like having conversations because a, i, I mean, from when we started this conversation where I am now, I actually feel more at peace because I was able to tell my story again and give it less power. Be normal. Have the conversation, check in with people, say hi. Just be a good human and give back when you can, you're not always gonna be at that a level, but inaction in itself is, is no action. So it's up to you. Challenge accept it, or challenge status quo.
Tyler:
01:30:01
It's just great to be back. Having conversations again. And for those of you that are like might have listened a little bit or, and really haven't like we talked normalized that if it doesn't feel right, it's probably not right. You should talk about it or, or, or address it. Bring it up and we will gladly, we'll be the first I'll volunteer us to be the first person to listen to gladly. So if you got something going on, just, just let's talk about it. That's it. So
Chris:
01:30:35
if you're even having that thought of being fearful of talking to someone, that's just, that should be your red flag. That should be your play. Exactly. Hey, I don't wanna really talk to anybody about this right there. That, that's, it is your number one. That was, that's the other guy saying, Hey man, you should probably listen to me. And then the other guy over here is like, Uhuh, I'm scared of shit. Uhuh not
Vincent ODUB:
01:30:54
doing it. Resources. Now, if you find yourself in a difficult time, your challenge against those demons the National Suicide Prevention Hotline has now changed number to nine eight eight. You could call text 'em anytime. We also have a business line that will actually cycle through all our cadre members until somebody picks up. Our business line is 8 44 stay w t l. That's 8 4 4 7 8 2 9 9 8 5. We will be willing to get you in that, in that position you need help for. So we got your sixth. We also got your 12 to show you where to go and how to proceed with those challenging times. So from us all here at the, W T L podcast, I guess now the Wounded Medic Foundation that is within these thin lines, it's been an honor, it's been a privilege. The partnership moving forward is gonna be an exciting phase that we're entering. But thank you both for being here and for everybody viewing. Take us up on that challenge. We'd love to see you in the the long term here in the ride. So stay safe, stay healthy, and just stay within thin lines.
00:00:06
Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening and welcome back within Thin Lines. My name is Vince Castaneda. Today I have Tyler Frank here with me on the virtual end calling in from Michigan. Tyler, how you doing today? I'm doing all right. Good. It's been a little minute. I know you've been busy. On your end, you're going through paramedic. Yeah, we just,
Tyler:
00:00:23
Been about three months into that so far, that journey. Oh, oh
Vince:
00:00:26
yeah. Oh yeah. And you and I, I think a couple nights ago we, we did a Zoom conference just to make sure you're studying the appropriate stuff, talking about blood, gas, and levels and pH
Tyler:
00:00:37
Yes, that was, all the stuff that never showed up on that test. That's right. Good stuff.
Vince:
00:00:42
We're preparing
Tyler:
00:00:42
for all the good stuff. Need I need a good every once in a while you can stare at text and you can do the videos and do the homework, but my go-to usually is getting my head kicked in by Vince a little bit. And that's right. I usually set some stuff straight,
Vince:
00:00:56
so like-minded people. And speaking of like-minded people, today we have another guest, a returning guest who is now here to reveal something and which we'll talk about later in the show is gonna be coming into a partnership. So without further ado, Chris, Matt Montana. Welcome
Chris:
00:01:12
back. Hey, Vince, thank you very much for having me. Glad to be on with you and Tyler today. And kind of talk about some passionate subjects that we, equally share and hopefully share some really exciting news for, our listeners.
Vince:
00:01:24
Absolutely, absolutely. With the, the current events and we recently just released the episode last night. It was kind of a spur of the moment. We've had some challenging times happen throughout our area here in Illinois. And we decided to do a very impromptu, just a re reminder, reality check, a buddy check. We dropped an episode saying we need to normalize mental health. and this is something that we as a organization have been really compassionate about and wanted to pursue, to develop a program, develop a foundation with partnerships, with collaborations, with other agencies, to be able to provide a resource for our first responders and military personnel. And something that, you know, ever since I met you, Chris, ever since I took your class, it was something that you and I have always been leaning on each other as well. Have utilized each other for that support and said, we, we are losing like-minded people. How can we find this in fruition to become a bigger aspect? And that's what we're here today is to kind of talk about the normalization of mental health, but the best thing we could do in, in trying to educate and inspire this mindset is to reflect within ourselves. You can't lead without being an influencer. You can't direct somebody without showing by example, right? So this is where we're kind of at. They know my story they've heard about Tyler's story, and it, I think this is an opportunity to hear from you, Chris kind of your background, what's, where are you from, what, what have you done? And what's, what's ultimately your life goal?
Chris:
00:02:59
Well, I think you said a lot of good things there. When you look at the current state of affairs when it comes to normalizing mental health and first responders among military veterans, active military personnel it goes across the board. We're seeing the fractures along the lines. We've seen them increase over the last two years, and it's only been perpetuated by the pandemic, the ongoing e m s shortage, and we're seeing suicide rates climb faster than they ever had before. And we have more resources and more tools available than we ever. but nobody's actually stopped to ask the question why? Why is that happening? A little bit about me and, and some of you guys out there listening. You guys may know a little bit about my story, but I have struggled with mental health for the last going on almost six years now. I've had two failed suicide attempts. My last one was in January of this. and not a lot of people know that I got to a very deep place, even though I had resources, even though I had worked through tools it still happens to the best of us. So to, to piggyback on some of the things that you said, I think also showing humility and vulnerability is even more important nowadays than ever because we're so guarded. We're so guarded because of the stigma. We're so guarded because we don't want to be judged and we're just fearful of what might happen, what might come of it. Am I gonna lose my job? What are my coworkers gonna think? What's my family gonna think because they think I'm an alcoholic? Because I've now taken those steps to admit it. Right. Those things all become barriers within our industry and challenge. When I started imed, I found imed. My whole passion was to help change emergency medical education from a fragmented industry and bring it together and make it high quality, not just check the box stuff. And, and I brought that passion to it. But over the years I started getting burned out, started kind of losing the passion, the drive, what drove me, because as an early entrepreneur and a bootstrapped entrepreneur at that as a founder there's a lot of stress on you when you start a business. And just like you'd be starting a new department or starting a new position as a manager or as a new medic being Tyler those are stressful moments. And what we have not been given, at least in my experience, because I started as a lifeguard, when was 12, I went right into m t school. At 18, I was working for the fire department, went right into flight. When I hit my three years, I worked for the Department of Defense that did contracting work overseas and supportable war on terror. And What I learned it throughout all of those, now looking back in almost 22, 25 years, if you go all the way back to when I was 12, I mean that's almost 30 years of experience. But what I did not get taught in any of that, I got taught about medical procedures, new changes, updates, protocols, drugs, physiology, changes in cpr, R and a h a, not once was I ever taught about how to deal with stress, how to deal with addiction, how to deal with burnout, how to deal with mental health disorders and struggles that are so real. But nobody wanted to look at 'em when I came into this industry because it was sit down, shut up, like, don't share your feeling. I mean, that was the culture I came into. It was very, very toxic and that was ingrained in me as a new recruit, as a proby, as every step of the way. But not once was I ever given the tools on how to figure out life. right? How do I deal with life? How do I deal with life? Overwhelms me when I have to work. I was working three jobs, I was working for two fire departments and flying full-time. I didn't have a life I was gone and home only usually two, sometimes one day a week. That's it, what does that do for someone when you're in isolation? So that led me after imed ims, doing really well. And we've transitioned and we were recently acquired last November by NoFL Learning Group and it's been phenomenal. I got with another company that gave me the resources and tools to help support my mission and grow that and see that going. But during my struggle in January, what I found when I was alone, and for some of you who have never actually gone through a situation like this, I'm gonna be really real candid. So I just wanna give you a trigger alert because this might trigger you if you are feeling like you're in a dark space. And if you are, please reach out. Text me, call me, DM me, find somebody head up, Vincent, cuz we're here to help. But when I was I, I took my truck out on a long country road out here in Utah. Got back from teaching a ventilator course, I got triggered out there. I didn't have my dog, I didn't have my resources, I forgot my meds. And I got really off track, man. I got into a really bad spot and I just took this drive. I just driving at this point just driving, driving and you just get in your head, man, and it's alone and it's night and now I'm intoxicated. When I got out to where I was, I basically drove down way down to the snowmobile trail and then I got the great idea, Hey, I don't think I'm just gonna take my truck over to this tree line over there. Well, I didn't make it very far on a snowmobile truck trail in my truck. I made about probably 150 yards before I sank and buried it. And at that point I didn't have cell phone service. I'm in the middle of nowhere wilderness, Utah. and there's no calling for help. There's no reaching out for resources. I, at that point, was left to my own devices, and that wasn't a great thing. That just continued to see me get into a deeper and deeper place. About two 30 in the morning a B l m, snow cat who grooms a trail at night for the snowmobilers. During of the day, he happened to come across my vehicle and asked me if I was okay. I said, yeah, I'm fine. I'm wearing a t-shirt, shorts and my night slippers, and it's negative 16 now, just give you perspective. And I don't have any clue. I didn't I got my survival. I'm, I'm very resourceful if I want to be, but I wasn't in that mindset. A series of events happened after that Utah Department of Public Safety came up. They took a look at me interviewed me, stuff like that. They helped me tow my vehicle out. And at that point they took me into Hebrew Valley Medical Center, where I was evaluated by a crisis worker. And at that point I was committed. They've transferred me out into a a specialized mental health institution. And I wanna share my experience because some of you you may be thinking some of these things or some of these thoughts that I was initially thinking before this event happened. And that was, Hey, if I ever get really bad I'll at least go check myself in. That's why I always told myself I'd never actually done it, never actually been into an institution or did gone through that process. But going through that process they said I initially I could bring my service dog they were gonna make accommodations for her and stuff like that. I could couldn't call anybody. You don't get any clothes. So for pretty much the first two days, because I couldn't find family members. Cause you, you only get to call five people on your list and you only get the phone so many times. Like, it's, it's, it's a, it's a very controlled environment and you're in there with Well, I was the only one there suffering from a mental health illness in my regard. So a suicide attempt essentially. Everybody else was there for detox, most likely. There was a lot of detox, whether it be alcohol, whether it be heroin, stuff like that. And so you're put in that environment, you're sharing a bed with somebody else, a rams stranger that is equally not as healthy as you or, or could be worse. And I was stuck in that environment for nine days. Hmm. And I will tell you, that was the worst environment to put someone like me in how triggered I was constantly. I mean, I'm looking at all these, all these other patients there as they're my former patients, I could put faces on each of 'em. I'm like, ah, yeah. Tube this overdose before. And I've done that one. And you, it, it wasn't a safe place. And then I remember at the time it was this past January and there was that big fire, I believe in Boston or New York where it killed about 12 kids and stuff like that. And all they were talking about is, well, why didn't the and here I am suffering from all of that. It was not a good experience for me. I didn't get the treatment I needed. I think the best thing that ever came out of that is I just got my meds balanced to a degree and then got additional tools to follow up with to keep me going. Sure. But realistically, the nine days I was in there, i I, it was hell, it was absolute hell for me and it wasn't a pretty picture and I wouldn't want anybody now going through that experience to go through a similar experience that I experienced. I'm not saying they're all like that, so please don't take it like that or out of context. I'm just saying this is my experience at this institution and it needed change because the way that we address mental health in our general public versus the way we address mental health and first responders and veterans and military personnel, law enforcement, we, we loop 'em all into one bunch. And that's what the medical community does. That's what the general public does. and I hate to say this, but there are two complete opposite spheres here when it comes to this stuff. In my personal opinion, the way I look at it, the reason being is man, when you look at it, there are two different spheres. Well I can understand a general public who's never been trained or indoctrinate or sensitized to what we go through to have a car accident, have a bad day, or have a traumatic event, assault, sexual, whatever. I understand that, but there's a difference when you have a, an acute event versus a decade or two decades or three decades of different events that have different stimulations. I have P T S C like complex. Now there's a new category for me because they can't just put me in one. I'm not ashamed of that. I'm actually happy. Why? Because it shows that the medical community is actually recognizing that there's, this is a very it's not a one size fit all. It's not one symp. It is a very complex issue. It's not a cookie
Vince:
00:13:00
cutter thing.
Chris:
00:13:01
No, it's not. And we're now looking at it, right? We're finally trying to unravel that. And the biggest challenge is if you there's some good books out there. John Bon Roseberg, one of my friends turned me onto one and I can't remember the name off the top of my head, but I got into that book and I really saw the challenges that general medical community and psychiatric and behavioral health we're taking the approach on this. They didn't wanna update the DSM five. They didn't wanna even recognize P T S D. They didn't, Hey, this was Shell Shock syndrome. It's just ignorance, right? You gotta update, you gotta change. And guess what? If it's not on that D s M me as a patient, I can't get help for that. What am I gonna claim? What insurance is gonna pay for it? And then they start fighting about what medications are actually ethical or you to get my bravado treatment, which is ketamine. I do inhaled ketamine. I've been through the initial program and now I do a maintenance every three weeks and it helps keep me balanced. It's part of my therapy re regimen. I had to fight for that. I had to show that I had gone through four other antidepressant medications without success before I could be considered for that. Do you know how long it takes to get on a psych bed? You gotta wait at least six weeks minimum to see the effects and the changes. And then they got adjusted dosages. So you're talking, I pretty much went through a whole year and a half and I couldn't take advantage of this therapy because I had to go through all these other steps and hoops that didn't work. And so those are just things, those are just problems that I'm just, I'm just bringing up, I'm bringing awareness to. Right. And I think some of the other people that are, might be listening in yourself could, can relate to this. So these are struggles that we're kind of going off of. Right. And then I also look at it's, it's a hard change, and so I didn't want to go through that anymore. And so I got passionate about it. One, I got sober, I started working with aa. That was, for me, that was a good tool for me to get me into a good place. Therapy once a week, twice a week just depending on what's going on. And then over time it just becomes maintenance. What I have found, if I don't do it, I start going back to the things that used to cause me problems. And so that led me to kind of create the Wounded Medic Foundation, and, and that's why I'm so passionate about mental health, because. I'm just as passionate about mental health as I am about education because I actually care about my fellow provider, my, the brothers and sisters working alongside me that are in this industry. More importantly, those are actually coming in that are new. Like Tyler he's going on a, why aren't they teaching stuff like this and giving these these students the tools up front in class to help give them the opportunity to be successful. Give 'em leadership cools in class. Because when you're a medic, that's what you're technically the leader of that box. Mm-hmm. you're a supervisor, but what training have you given as far as being an actual supervisor or a manager? Zero. You're just winging this stuff. It's ojt, right, baby. And we've always just flown by the seat of our pants and unfortunately the state of affairs show that that's not working anymore and we need to re-look at that. and, and make some licensedions and see how we can implement some changes that will actually provide them with the tools to decrease the amount of rate of suicides, to decrease the amount of e m s providers that have diversions and have substance abuse issues. We don't provide enough of this. We're seeing the communities, and this is a good barometer, at least for me, when I start seeing the conferences really focus and shift their focus on mental health, that tells me something, right? Tells me that they finally woke up and they're catching on. And that's what you're seeing and that's great. It's a good trend, but how can we make it sustainable more importantly? And two, how do we make it better? So I think those are really good things as as to why I'm here and why I'm so passionate. But for those of you guys looking at this story I am, I'm almost a year past my suicide attempt last January, six months sober. I feel great. The best I've ever been in 20 years. I gotta. Work-life balance. I got tools, I got time to myself. I told told Vince like you asked me how I was doing. Hey, hey, I'm gonna do a podcast at Friday at work. Finally, like, I didn't have that life before. I'm gonna go read my, my book. I'm reading educated right now. I love it. Like, I'm gonna sit down in my office and read I, these are opportunities I didn't have and I didn't have the tools to even think about that. So I've had to have other people help me with my support to help create that routine for myself to make it better. So, hey, if you guys are in the fire, you guys feel like you're in the fog. I was there. I was in that darkness. Okay. I can tell you that there is a light on the other side. And sometimes you just need a helping hand to guide you get out of that thing. Mm-hmm. And that's kind of where I'm shifting my focus now. I, I've been in the fire twice now. I'm never gonna say it's fun to go back into the fire and help other people, but since that attempt I've tried and some successfully and some not successfully, is it was very public. Back in March when I lost my friend Drew, I missed his phone call by 30 minutes. Oh. Actually, he called me and I said I was gonna call him back in 30 minutes, and within that 30 minutes he had taken his life. And that was very I was very public because I'm, I'm tired of this stuff, guys. Yeah. I I'm tired. I've lost five friends this year. Five. Yeah. Last year I think I lost about the same, I think it was closer to seven, but people that I knew, people I were working with, people that just within our community that would reach out either through Facebook or whatever based on what we were doing. Right. And, and there's hundreds more that I'm not seeing. And I think we're all kind of tired of it. And I love my buddy Jim Green, he's been a good friend and mentor of mine. He does a mission ready campaign, but he always says like, I, I love his line. It's either you accept the status or you choose to change it. And I'm not accepting it anymore. So I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I'm doing it. I'm working. Whether it takes traction or it gets off, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know where this journey's gonna go, but I'm excited to have the support and the community I'm excited to see. Hopefully it does make an impact, even if it saves one person a year. Like that's one death that I don't personally have to own and deal with and, and, and go through again. Like I just, sorry man, I don't go to funerals very much anymore. I used to go to 'em all the time to pay my respects, but dude, I, I just can't go anymore. Sure. I can't.
Vince:
00:19:07
So you, you nailed em. That I had I think the the, the problem of this, what I'm calling is a pandemic, right? It's been an issue for decades now. It's yeah. It's something that, I hate to see that. Statistically we kind of classify this almost like it's a natural cause, yeah. This is Complet heart. Yeah, this is, this is, it's absurd for me cuz this is preventable means this is something where we ought to be educating our recruits. We ought to be work educating our candidates early on. Just like you said, I and I, I talked about it on the podcast we released last night. One of the things I noticed in every academy and every basic training or whatever I've been part of that, we always had someone of leadership come in and he'd say, Hey, don't bring your problems home. Don't talk about your problems, just leave 'em at work and then just try not to bring it home. But of course you bring them when you go home, your, your spouse and your family, they know you've had a hard time. You could try to bite your tongue as hard as possible, but your body language changes. And then if the more you ignore the issues, cuz we all need to, we all should be aware that we work very odd jobs, right? We're not designed to be able to handle trauma and chaos and gore, but this is what we do. We work high stress jobs. We're gonna get high stress moments, we're gonna have those outcomes where we're struggling, so if we feel like we shouldn't be addressing it at home and just ignoring it, we're just, we're, we're setting ourselves, ourselves up for failure, so my, my response to that is, is f that go home, talk about your problems. Talk about your problems for your partners, your crew, your, your team. Get rid of the stigma. I think for a while employers were kind of saying, oh yeah, we're, we're big about mental health. You could come talk to us. But what did they do? They send you home? they give you time off. That's not what we need. We need support,
Chris:
00:20:56
so, so we're gonna send you home to be further isolated. Right? To be with all your vices that make you worse. Can you see where this goes? Right. It's not, and you're right. It's like we, we, we we're chasing a hamster wheel if we don't make the changes and, and some of those changes they come down to the dollar and, and I'm a businessman, so I understand that there's only so much dollars. There's only the, the pie's only so big. So how much can we contribute to the pro programs internally within an agency to help support this? And, and if anybody has caught one of my lectures about burnout, there's six things you guys can do that cost your agency zero money, just time and energy that. Time and energy, zero money, so go check out that talk with the EM s leadership or I'll be at CC T M C with Porsche actually presenting that one as as well. So but yeah, like it doesn't cost money, but you have to put in the time you have to have a program. And, and some people it could be fair, like if I was an employer and I had no idea how to come after this pandemic because I myself wasn't given those tools, do you get fearful? Like, okay, maybe if I just not do anything, it'll go away, right? Like Yeah. It's just getting louder. And I like how you mentioned talking because I can wholeheartedly tell you that the more I tell my story, the more I talk about my struggles, my deficiencies, things that are bothering me, the better I actually feel. I don't think that beforehand, I have to remind myself when I get to that point, because I don't wanna open up, I don't wanna talk to anybody. We, we in, in, in, in nature. We just wanna shut down and withdraw. That's what we want to do. We have to fight against that. And those are, those are part of the tools of being mentally resilient is, is how do I fight against that urge not to reach out, not to talk. So for me, I have to remind myself, Hey, remember the last time you felt like this, you called up so-and-so, or had a conversation with so-and-so and man, how'd you feel afterwards? I felt great. I got that off my chest. I was able to let it go so that I don't have to keep that stuff in my backpack. I can just, Hey, it's out. And that's the thing. I didn't talk over my 22 years of actively working first line ems. I didn't, didn't talk to anybody. I was told like, you man, bury it. Keep it down. Shut up. You're a baby. You can't handle this. I remember calling one of my direct managers while I was having a complete hallucinogen flashback breakdown and asked for help. And I was just told like, you, hey. go ahead and take tomorrow off. Well, great. I dealt with three fatalities that day. One being a neonate and you're just telling me, Hey, just stay home and sleep it off.
Vince:
00:23:30
Go be isolated. That's gonna help. Go be isolated.
Chris:
00:23:33
Yeah. So, but now you know, you get to a point where you're able to reflect and look back and see those things line up. We call it the Swiss Cheese Effect. I can see some of those ch, I can see some of those pieces now that I didn't have the objective or the perspective or the purview early on. And so now that I have it, I want to share it. So hopefully this is how we make change, right? I can't change where I'm at right now, but what I can change is what's gonna happen tomorrow and thereafter and thereafter. And I can control how I react to those responses and situations as. So we gotta get better about talking. And this is where having inclusive groups I've thought about and, and I don't know what the answer is, right? I think, I think it's a multi-pronged approach. Cause I, not one thing's gonna work, but I've thought about, hey, maybe we host anonymous, like Zoom hangouts where it's totally anonymous. You don't have to share your screen, you can just share your mic and it just gives you an opportunity to just word vomit. It's just, you, you, and if you know that's available to you, then nobody knows who you are. But you know that they're like you in some way because they're either struggling or they're involved in e m s or, or active service duty. You can go onto that place and, and get that out and let it go because that then tells you like, Hey, I have an opportunity. It reduces the barrier to share. So hopefully we can all just start talking about this a lot more because. The discussion helps and it breaks the stigma and it normalizes it. I'm an alcoholic. Hi, my name's Chris. I'm welcome. Okay. I'm part of this misfit band and I'm okay with that guys. Yes, because guess what? It's a disease. It's just like having diabetes. I don't have control over this stuff. I didn't know that and I didn't have the tools to recognize it. Now I do and I'm here
Vince:
00:25:12
to give back. Right? And that's what we're aspiring to do. I think a goal here in the WTL podcast is that we're gonna be going to academies and fire academies and getting a, an hour block for their school and just have this sit down conversation, hopefully, maybe even record a podcast live for them, but just prepare them, tell 'em this is a reality. You guys are about to enter a job, that you're gonna see things and do things and be involved in things that we're not raised to do. But here's not just the signs. Cause I think society is very big about here's the signs of, of poor mental health, but then there's nothing after that. It's all short term. Like here's a hospital for, give you nine days or seven days, some medications, but there's no long-term care. Right? What's the long term
Chris:
00:25:57
AAP visits? Or eight eight E a p visits. And then it's like, okay, well now what? Right. Exactly. And some of those e a P visits in my personal experience, have not come or been as beneficial as they probably could have, and it's not to the fault of the individual that I was seeing. It, it's the fault of the overall system because once again, you're classifying this as your general kind of e a p. It's the same e a p program that you would call if I was working for HP or Ford Motor Company or nascar. It doesn't change. It's the same kind of thing, and they treat everybody that general thing. We have to think about this in a different way for this type of individual, right? Mm-hmm. we have to, I don't think it's working necessarily very well, and I think we need to revisit it. You know how, I don't know. That's where having conversations is helpful. What do, what works for community? And, and in my talk with burnout, I, I ask providers specifically like, what do you do for stress? Because what I do for stress is maybe totally different. I want other people to hear what you're doing to help manage your stress. So maybe they can pick up something. Some guy said he was doing a keto, someone said hot yoga. All these other I painting, I learned how to play a, a, a musical instrument. Like these are things that most people just wouldn't think about. How do I, how do I find ways to decompress outside of work? Well, those were all great examples, so, but did you know about beforehand? Did you even, like, were you cognizant of that? More than likely not. And so it, it, that goes to show, like going out to those academies and sharing things like that is important in what we do early on. Early on. And then the stigma, like I would love to talk about the stigma and how we bust that you Yes, because when you look at stigma, right? It, the stigma creates fear, right? And one of the things I've learned is fear is a really big inhibitor for personal growth, right? If you're, you're scared to do something, so I don't do it, you're scared of this challenge, so you don't do it right? You're scared of, hey, maybe I'm a bad person and I'm not so great cuz I'm angry and agitated all the time. And so I don't wanna talk about it, or I don't wanna deal with it. Well, why because you, you've been told your whole career. I've been told to bottle it up. I've been told my whole career not to share these things, and I just need to, maybe there's something wrong with me because that goes through your head, like, why are all these other people fine? And I'm the one that's like totally messed up. Like, maybe I shouldn't even gotten this career field to begin with. I don't know. Maybe it's impasse that just are more susceptible. Who knows? But what I'm saying is when we look at the overall stigma, I love this. I, I just shared a TEDx talk. They looked at addiction, right? Addiction the term started coming out around the fifties. They looked at it and how they get that the study that they did for addiction was to put a single rat into a cage and give 'em two water bottles, one with water, one with either cocaine or heroin. What do you think the rat went, went to the cocaine and heroin every time? No, without fail. And a hundred percent of them. Eventually either overdosing or just they just kept wanting more and more and more. And around the seventies, this other gentleman comes along and I his name escapes me, but he takes a little look and goes, well, if you're putting a rat in a cage all by itself, it has no means to socialize or do anything else. All it can do is get high. Like, what,
Vince:
00:29:05
what do you expect? What do you expect?
Chris:
00:29:07
Yeah. Yeah. So he took that concept and he created rat heaven. He basically created this hotel, Taj Mahal for rats, had tunnels, all these different colored balls, play toys, other rats so they can have fun with other rats and make baby rats and they put the same water bottles in there, and guess what? Almost zero compulsivity going to the water bottle. Go get that cocaine or heroin, zero overdose. And so it's things like that, studies like that, that weren't really mainstream. And so they didn't get traction. They just kinda got pushed off. And probably nobody, I didn't even know this until I heard it today, and that's why I shared it, but, That's, that's the stigma of addiction. Okay, well, you're calling that addiction. Well then stop isolating me. Bring me out. Celine reside with Rebel. He always talks about connection. I love that guy because it is like, having a virtual connection is great, but it does not replace having you here in my office. Me having that one-on-one, giving you a bro high five elbow, whatever, that's a different kind of connection. And we're becoming more isolated with the pandemic. And so you're losing that a lot more. And that's why you're I, I suspect you're seeing the acceleration, but we, we, we put that stigma of, well, this is addiction. Well, what is e m s? Well, I just talked about it. I worked pre jobs. I was home once a week, always isolated, driving to and from work. And it's isolated. Like you're not getting connected. And on top of that, you're getting trauma and then you're not talking about it. It's a walking do time bomb. I mean, you're just, it's like a water balloon that you've hooked up to a faucet. It's only a matter of time before that thing
Vince:
00:30:41
explodes. Exactly, exactly. So your negativity is toxic, but the positivity is truly addicting. Right? It is. If we just keep things positive and we, we surround ourselves with like-minded people, people who may be struggling or who have struggled in the past and have found the way you'd be surprised how that's gonna lift you. Hundred percent, whether it's in person, I know world now, especially after Covid that kind of isolated everybody. And that's where we saw numbers deteriorate cuz people weren't able to hang out with each other. I mean, social things were, were forbidden, but now here we are trying to reamp that and, and re enclose this capsule of, of support, and I think Tyler's on this as well, and he's probably listening. He is like, man, I, I have so much he wants kind of pitch in about it. But we could go back and forth on, on his role. He's, he's going through paramedic school and he's an assistant chief for his department. He, he leaves that, that leadership role. And Tyler, I guess, what's your mindset what is it that you really have found to be the norm within your area of mental health? Is it even discussed? Is it even a, a module of a lesson?
Tyler:
00:31:56
Well, that's For the record, I wasn't just napping this entire time. I I appreciate Chris's input. It's cuz it, it's thought provoking and the thing that's been sticking with me through our previous conversations and then Chris and his experiences and everything is that that norm, that word normalize and you title things normalize nowadays and everybody wants to normalize a lot of different things. But it truly is to me to divine normalize like norm. And a minute ago we just kind of touched on like that fear or that, that taboo type thing of mental health. We cuz I think like you, like you said, people and we generally hesitant to do something we, we think is right sometimes, but there's just no one else doing it. Or, or there's no study, there's no. Cultural growth. Like you grow up with it as, as as a norm, so I think that holds up people. And I think there's different kinds of normal for, for crisp I call it, I was, for whatever reason that's stuck in my brain. People walk through this world and I think there's a kinetic and there's a potential, kinda like physics, right? I think Chris, you're kind of the kinetic. It's happened to you, it and it slapped you and it's now your mindset. It has, it's your part of your life and every day you address it with the individual things and that's your norm. You've normalized it for you. And then there's people that walk and that have no experience with it. And that's that potential. And I'll tell it, call it potential cuz potential energy, it can happen to anybody, whether you're strong or where you think you're strong or you think you've got things going well. Or under control. It can certainly happen to anybody. So that potential normalization, and that's what I look at when I see a lot of, I guess to Vince's question in my little world when I have new hirees or even when I was getting into, or when I start a paramedic class or when I start a new adventure, even where I'm at here today there's a normal to that that needs to be nurtured. And that's a big thing I think we've kind of discussed. I think that's a thing we kind of discussed a little bit as far as like initial education and type of things. These questions we're not asking that normal is, is how do you train these people nowadays that, that really haven't had that kinetic type experience in their, in their world, in their life. Possibly could, and they're gonna go out into this world and deal with people who are, are at that point who are experiencing a crisis. So and it's not just when I talk about how do you train them and what resources are offered, the initial stuff that you get and answers you get for that stuff, they're all kind of HR direct itself, black and white. Well yeah. It's, it's a business and an agency is gonna cover what they
Chris:
00:35:19
have. They call the dance it's like the HR dance. Yep. So it needs to, but I love what you said, Tyler. I love the potential. That is awesome. I love that concept. Yeah. And that's where we
Tyler:
00:35:31
all should start. And we should all when you go and dress a class of anybody, law enforcement, military just within thin lines, community or even, even private sector business, when you address it it's to normalize your individual aspect of that person, of that servant of, of your patient you might encounter. Okay. When you ask questions to a patient or some, or somebody experiencing a crisis, the first one's always outta the mouth are kind of like the, the textbook. Have you had thoughts? Do you have a plan? And all you're doing is checking those boxes to create a treatment plan. When you really think about or think about yourself, for me to normalize it for that potential student or that potential servant who's doing the job, normalize it with yourself, but normalize it for them. Ask them, Hey, are you married? Because now I have a yes or no, there's a spouse issue there. That's stress that causes people in crisis to act differently. Do you kind of look at their life? Do they have. are they, are they a parent? Are they not a parent? Are they that you know isolated? Are they in that isolated spot in that life? Kind of like Chris, you, you described. So you, you try to individualize the questions. You still gotta create that assessment and that treatment plan for 'em. But, but to put that stress in, that normalize the crisis for them. So when they get to that kinetic, cuz hopefully they survive it and hopefully they become that kinetic person. It has happened to 'em, it slaps 'em outside the head. They need to know that this is my life now it's normal for me to be like, this is normal for me to seek different options and routes to get through my day. Not to just kind of, when I say normal, it's, it's, that's their normalization. You're gonna help transition them to that, to normalize it for them. Cause I think once you just eat kind of ingest it in yourself, you. that it doesn't, it's not so scary anymore. We're always scared when we run our first call because we've never experienced it. That person going through that experience, that crisis, they're, they're kind, they're probably a little scared too, and they've got a pride and, or sometimes they've got pride. Sometimes they've got all these external emotions and feelings going on as well. If you can normalize the, your role as a guidance to help them normalize the rest of their life it's no different than you picking up a patient that's gonna have a respiratory illness for the rest of their life and normalizing them, taking care of themselves with a, with a treatment plan. Normalizing somebody transitioning into a, like, hey, a diabetic state of life where they're gonna have to take care of themselves. We've given plenty of resources for that. we've given plenty of protocol and sci. The science is there to show you how to live a good, healthy life. Once you kind of become that, I mean, like, I keep using that word, that kinetic patient because you've experienced it and now it's part of your life. But we really don't give the real, the gut tools to us to help normalize that patient in a mental health situation. That's at least on my take of it. So normal is what stood out to me. How those were the few things that jumped into my brain and how, how I was trying to equate it. So, but it's
Vince:
00:39:14
making it normal and it's making it realistic, yeah. We gotta be realistic
Tyler:
00:39:18
about it. Well, you really gotta put a human definition to it. You can't just when you say normalization, you can't just take the Webster. Definition for it. You really have to, it's your this. Exactly. And you gotta create this like a culture around it too. It's okay to normalize it, you know it at the initial training level, so, and that's a
Chris:
00:39:42
good point cuz I I could tell you like from where I started walking the it wasn't my first time going to aa. I had gone to AA actually five years prior and tried to get sober and was for a year and then eventually kind of the disease came back. But normal for me back in may. It is not the normal that I have now. It's, it's been in flux because it's just like a diabetic. As you learn more someone recently just got out cardiac surgery. As you learn more about the diseases, we learn more about the treatment and your routine. You adjust those things and, and you find more tools and more resources and apply different people's perspective to you. And I kind of borrow from here and there and, and create what works for me. So also I think it's important to know that whatever your normal is now may not be your normal in a week or two weeks, or in, in a year. So you have, and that's okay. Like that's, that's growth, right? But how do we create I, I, because you're using Kinetic and you're using potential. So how do we create the action potential, right? So how do we improve the action potential of going from potential to kinetic, right? What did you look at those barrier? Fear, ego, pride. You mentioned some of those alcoholism, substance abuse depression. Yeah, I could go on with the list, but how do you create a better action potential to make it more easily flow from potential to kinetic? You break it down and then you start giving them the tools early on so that when they actually are in that potential pre potential, right, so they're an action potential at that point. Before they get to a potential, they actually have the tools and some knowledge and some resources about, Hey, I know I'm burned out, or I feel depressed and it's okay and I need to go seek treatment or, or find ways to help out with that. Right. Versus. I don't have that action potential and I'm just now going through my career and all of a sudden I hit that. Now I'm the potential and I don't have anything. I've never been taught anything. Hopefully I got someone that I reach out to who may have walked that line or walked that path before that can help guide me or not, and I'm left to my own and that's a 50 50 at that point. I think we see the trends going more like 70 30, so how do we how do we lead up on that action potential on the front end? For me, it's always been we gotta start teaching this stuff in our curriculum, in the programs early on. Start it early so it doesn't become such a big problem when we get there, because hell, if I know how to plug a pipe, as soon as it starts cracking, I can duct tape that. I can figure out ways to mitigate that leak versus. For I, I just, okay, I'm gonna ignore it and I'm gonna continue to ignore it because I'm scared. I don't wanna deal with this broken pipe cuz I've never fixed a broken pipe before, so maybe it'll just go away and then eventually it burst and now I don't even know how to deal with that. Maybe there's a plumber nearby that can come help me. Maybe there's not, I'm gonna flood my whole house. Those are the analogies we gotta start breaking down because then it makes sense, right? It seems like I just had a normal conversation. I actually wasn't talking about mental health and being depressed and, and needing help and not being you see what I'm saying? You can normalize a conversation different ways without calling it what it is. You mentioned Vince, you know when you, or, or sorry, Tyler you're going to a checklist, right? They're asking HR questions and doing the HR dance. I can challenge you that if I was aware of what those questions were to just a regular conversation, maybe using those as a guide, I could probably have a conversation with you and get all those questions and learn more about you and things like that. That's what we don't take the time to do, because we just sit here and read a paper and go, well, Chris, have you ever thought about hurting yourself or anybody today? Well, yeah. Okay, well check. Okay. Next one. Do you wanna talk about that versus, Hey, Chris how's your day going? Have you had any intrusive thoughts? Yeah, I'm not feeling so great. I keep thinking about maybe hurting myself, man, that sucks. You know what? What kind of thoughts are you having? Have you thought about how to do it or are you feeling alone? You see how I was able to have a connection? on that initial acute side, that initial side. So not only do I feel so passionate about getting the training education early on to our to those clinicians and frontline staff, but also making sure that the people that are receiving that inbound when they're asking for help, they know what they're doing and they're actually a human and they're being compassionate and empathetic to that individual. And I know when I talk to another first responder, especially if I don't know them, but I know they're here to help me, I'm a lot more forthcoming. I'm a lot more engaged. They understand and can relate where I'm coming from. They can help talk and give me some things initially that will set in path, the motion of that snowball. What's gonna happen downstream, it's gonna set up the maintenance or not. So there's a couple critical points I see is that action potential that you mentioned, getting it out early on, and then also having people there to help with the transition from potential to kinetic. we've gotta have better people there that are more trained, more aware, and more human, more likely. I mean, I'm serious. I got treated like a, and I joke about this cuz I got to a point like that when I was flying. You get, so you, you're just in that routine of just flight after flight that you're just like, okay dude, on the co you just treat 'em like a, like I'm shipping something from up s That's exactly how I felt going through this whole process. There was no human aspect to it. Nobody cared about what I was doing. Only that was all my meds. They didn't care about checking in. They never brought me my dog. They denied everything. They broke a c l I mean, I'm serious and, and this is a place I went to that's supposed to specialize in this stuff. How do you think that set me up for everything else that followed? Not in a good thing I would, but they gave you a pizza party. They gave me a pizza party.
Tyler:
00:45:17
Yeah.
Chris:
00:45:19
So that's the realistic goodbye. It's crazy. Yeah. They give you a bed, they give you three meals a day, they make sure you're taking your meds per the state. And that's it. Like once again, we don't provide that. And that's one of the things that I like about and one of my long-term goals with the Wound and Met Foundation, is to have the ability to provide that initial touch. Yes. Instead of going to a mental health institution, why don't you come out on a mental health retreat? Yes. Right. You see the difference there. I'm gonna go to a prison while I'm scared. Now I have fear I'm gonna be with other patients, other people that I've had to treat with. Why would I ever want to go to that fricking purgatory? Yeah. Hey, I'm gonna go up in the mountains. I'm gonna go fishing, I'm gonna go hiking. I'm gonna talk to somebody else who's walking the road. Similarly, you may have some tools, you might be able to help me with my, my kinetic energy. And I'm getting out, away from technology. I'm getting away from all the stressors of the world, all that stress, and I'm actually just being real. I'm being naked and I'm being raw. Right? That, and that was one of the things I loved about the Crash and Learn conference. It just was a, it was an actor thought, right? It was something that just happened. But that, that conference created a community where you had people connecting and sharing, and we were talking about mental health and story. I mean, dude, it was so cool. But I left that conference like it was a retreat, man. Like I, I learned some cool shit. But more importantly, man, I f my, my cup was filled, man. I felt so just connected to the community. I, I didn't feel all of those things. Why aren't we doing more stuff like, Taking a different approach outside the box because you know what's working is not working and we all just need to be honest and face the truth that if it really isn't working very well, could it be better? Yeah, I'm sure it can. And, and that's not for me. I'm not the end all, be all. I'm not the, the expert on this one. There's way smarter people out there than me, but I have an objective perspective. I've lived it, I've walked it for six years. I've gone through all the experiences I think you could probably go through in an event like that without not actually expiring. So I'm gonna
Vince:
00:47:15
licensed you on that. I'm gonna licensed you on it because I do believe you're the expert on this, right? And I think a lot of people get so hung up about like, oh, when it comes to an expertise, they're thinking like physicians and psychiatrists and people way above who are able to assess somebody's brain. And it's like truly though, do they understand? The extent of what kind of damage we've seen or done the people, the greatest assets and tools in our toolbox is each other, and I think in, in my, in my perspective on it years ago when I was Tyler was, was, was a witness to this cause vetch, he came in and he helped me out out of it. But there was a time where I was in a, in a dark spot as well, and I tried reaching out to those resources that our employers have to give us. And I was realizing like, they don't know what we go through. Like I'm just talking and trying to word vomit, but they're just rying it down and they're, they're not really making it relatable. So I found a resource and I wish I still had it run down somewhere. But it was a a phone support. And they connected me to a chief out of New York City who was able to say, Hey, I worked the job with you. I understand where you're going through, I've been there, here's what I've done to get out of it. And that's where we kind of picked up on it and be like, I wanna work with people who are relatable, who are, who are, are able to understand. And a saying that stuck with me forever was that you have to surround yourself in a community of consequences. And although that's not quite a holistic word, if you think about it though, if you surround yourself and people who are disciplined, who are, who are willing to pick you up and not allow you to fall down, like both of you, if I were to call you and say, Hey, I had a bad day, and I decided not to go out and, and go do something fun, or, or even go to the gym, one of you would say, go to the F and gym and make sure that I'm accountable. And that's where it's accountability,
Chris:
00:49:02
right? It's a safe community, right? Yep. It comes back to connection because you feel connected, you feel safe and accountable, right? Like if, and it's a good thing. I mean, for example, like everybody knows I'm trying to stay sober, right? So like when I went to a mtc, when I go out to places, I know that everybody else knows. I'm trying to say silver. So that helps me stay accountable to not go be tempted to pick up a drink. Yes. Right. Or not be tempted to do something that I never otherwise would not want to do. Right. Because they knew who I am. Like Chris isn't like you, like, what's going on, man? And I did, man, I, I had a bad time. Am mtc I had a, had a a got into a little bit of a struggle and I had someone there, Dave Vera, that help me out, man. And he's been a but his community, I have you, I have Dave, I have Sal Dylan. I, I have people that I can call and I'll tell you the hardest thing is making that first call. But once you get in the habit of making those calls and I need help, just, it's okay. I need help. For me, I just, I text out green that tells everybody it's a code green. I need help, I need, I need somebody to reach out. It's a very simple word that I can text that it has no stigma, no attachment. That there's no mental fear barrier. Right. It's just like when everybody says a port, A port of port, it's like, what if you just say yellow? Right? Like it's easier to say yellow than it is a port of Port of port. Cuz when you say a port of port, port, like your mind thinks like, oh shit. Like the whole, no. But if you come up with an inconsequential word that means the exact same thing and everybody understands it well that is one way you can reduce the barrier. Yeah. Instead of calling us help, Hey, I need support. Why don't we get that, Hey, I need, I need support. I don't need help. You support. I need you to, I need support of holding me up. I need support of guiding me when I can't make the right decisions for myself. I need support because I don't know what to do next. And I need guidance. That is a better word. It's the same thing as saying help, but what we're saying is we're changing the word and making it less fearful man. You're breaking the stigma that way. Yeah, because maybe that catches on. Maybe we couldn't get help to catch on, but maybe support is the one that works. Right. I don't know, but these are things that we have to be doing, trying, talking, and having discussions like this. Tyler, I know you're still back there, man. What do you got?
Tyler:
00:51:08
I'm all, I, I'm for it. That's, I'm trying to formulate my thought with that it comes down in the communication aspect of it and ultimately we're not, I mean, maybe one of us in this conversation here has got like a communications degree or something like that. I don't, I think it's fake, but yeah.
Chris:
00:51:27
What if I just like to talk a lot? Does that count? That's right. No,
Tyler:
00:51:31
it, it, that's the next part with, with equipping tools is the right questions, the right culture to, to get these pe get us all included is is then the communication tool. So normalizing terms, normalizing speech, bringing it away from negatives and, and positives and kind of neutralizing words. That's it because it's, we're a vast communities. There's, there's inner city to, from big Chicago to little rural southwest Michigan where I'm at. There's, there's different ways you gotta communicate that. And, and like I said, it's that hard subject to normalize because it's so individual to the person, to the region, to the culture, circumstances of the crisis, the culture of it. So I'm, yeah, I'm for using neutral terms cuz it just a, sounds professional when you, when you're talking about it. If you're having a provi a a within thin line member patient contact when you're at work or if you are helping people that you work with or if you're that one in that case that is truly what you what we need to is, is definitely identify co communicative skills or you case you can't standardize it. That's the hardest part with it. You can't make, but you can always just identify great practices and what works for you might work for people in different locations, different areas, different cultures of it. So my, yeah, like mine brought really direct people, people around here, and I, my folk typically they're usually pretty aggressive. That's the hard part too for, I would say the 60 40 when I deal with mental health as a provider. It's, it's an aggressive approach in the, it's kind of hard to have neutral and, and. Kind of versus a border board board or you change it to a color. It's, it's kind of hard to have that when people just already naturally have colorful language So it is, that's, that's a skillset too, in its own and how to cuz it's, it's kind of weird and I don't wanna shame like a, like a, like a like therapist or somebody who deals with that in a clinical setting in an office, but they usually have a very calm demeanor in sense. And I'm not saying you need to match people's energy, but you need to convince them that you're with them on this and you're, you're, you're, you're in the same boat. And it, that's a skill set all on its own. And I, and that kind of brought me back to what Vincent said kind of clarifying who the real expert on this is. Somebody who's studied a lot of research and done controlled clinicals or you who live it. every day That's one of my favorite. It's not a, it's like the old, like fire thing. A good fire is not, it is kind of bad. My favorite thing, which is really not my favorite, but when I am on a call like this, I do have identified individuals that aren't trained in a, in any, any more than the next guy. They're, they're, they're licensed but yeah, I know their life. I know they've been through it, and I know when to say, I'm not the best person to talk to this person, and I can put the right player. And they can connect on a level that's the expert. And to be honest, he is a, he is a one year firefighter. He's just getting into it, but he's come with a life experience. He's at the kinetic level and he's able. Really connect and he's had some crazy variables thrown at him and he handled 'em just kind of as we expected, as the best person to handle that situation. So knowing your team is another aspect of it too, in, in trying to find the right person to connect. If I knew of, and if somebody addressed me, cuz some sometimes it finds you and then they bring it up to you, which is great. I love like self-identified when they somebody is experiencing something and if Vince is the better person to talk to, I'm not gonna try to pawn it off on Vince, but I'm gonna truly advocate and still follow up with and try to be a part of it and, and bring Vincent to it as well. So I on, on that topic, communication is, that's the big gray area. Secondary to like, normalizing and what is mental health and that's that's, that's your best Combative, like set of tools to, to help somebody mitigate a situation or a crisis. And, and that's the hardest thing to teach somebody is how to be a good communicator. So,
Chris:
00:56:38
well, I, I like how you put that, Tyler. So there's two things that I liked about what you just said. So the first thing being communication. I do think we need to be better at communicating about, I also recognized that communication can be a barrier, and that one of those fears is a very big barrier for people to ask for help. So one of the thoughts that I had with the wound medic homepage was basically to create a crisis video library, right? It could be other people sharing their experiences on depression on this, because maybe you don't have that courage to actually reach out to someone just yet. We want to get you to that point. But maybe you're not quite good at the critical stage hey, you got a place that you could just go watch other people talk about their story, right? And you hopefully can take something away. is, is that something that I don't know but it's one of those ideas that I had that I go, well, maybe that helps make things a little bit more normal, more accessible. Because maybe they don't want to ask for help. They can't pick up the phone, they can't text, they can't physically say, I need help, but maybe they can find some supporting tools. Hey, I'm struggling with two I'm having some bad thoughts. What are some things that other people have done to get through those bad thoughts? Right? And what does that mean? So it's just looking out outside the box in different ways. Then the other thing that I like that how you put it is you need that that expert, that expert is someone who has walked it in my personal opinion there's, there's clinical experts, right? But then there's subject matter experts, and I, I think you look at that as those are the people that walked into the fire and they made it out. I'm not saying they made it out whole, they had made it out burned. I mean, I sure shit didn't, but I made it out. I made it out twice. I don't ever want to go back in on my own fire again, but doesn't mean I don't know how now have the tools to go help someone else and pull them out of their fire or their fog is what I call it. And I like, I wanna pull a little bit of AA in here I only know how to do this based on what I've gone through. Right. And that's what that person's doing so everybody's different on how they help someone work through that kinetic por portion of it. I like how you put like, Hey, if I'm not the right person, I'm gonna try to guide it to to Vince. And then follow, still follow up, right? You should still be following up. Hey, I'm gonna check in with vi Hey Vince, I got this going on. That's experience. And so I think by creating more of those experiences, right, more of those opportunities at work, and I. and then provide those own in individual mentors or whatever you wanna call them, that are helping those individuals through it, provide them with some growing resources and tools, right? Like what I learned before is, like I said, different than what I know now five months later cuz I'm continuing to upkeep, continuing to learn more things. And so having some tools and resources for those individuals so I think you could look at communication and absolutely we need to improve how we're communicating it, how they're accessing the information or, or needing to get ahold of that. Especially with generation X, Y, and Z. They're different. They're not thinking the way that the old salty dog was 20 years before me and they're not thinking in the way I am. So we gotta adapt and you have to have different tools of communication. but I love what you said, Tyler. I think it's great and, and hopefully what I would like to see is a, the, the barriers come down, the fear barrier of how to get resources and how to ask for support. And more importantly, I think the a the follow up, right Vince? So, yeah. Giving, giving other people tools that they don't know what they're doing, they're just walking the life. I'm just walking the life. I don't, I'm just doing what I've, what I've learned and what I've gone through my experiences. But wouldn't it be nice if I had some other resources to continue to learn so I could continue to be a better provider and, and I could help. set that person up on a kinetic state that is of maintenance and continue to support them, but maybe they go on to help somebody else. And that's how we it's, it's a holistic approach. We gotta change the culture, the thought, the stigmatism, communication leaders, people that can actually go into fire and pull people out there are trained to do it, or maybe they just, they become resilient, and unfortunately, I, I feel like I just became resilient. I had two choices. I could either die or I could live. And that was honestly the decision I had to make. And I chose to live. And because I chose to live, this is now the path that I'm on, and I'm okay with it. So wanna see where it goes and continue to listen to other people have discussions like this, because I, I picked up so much from you and Vince and Tyler today, just by having
Vince:
01:00:55
a conversation, right? Right. And I, I do know that communication's hard, right? It is, it is probably the most challenging thing human beings have, but also first responders, military, we're stubborn. We're very short worded and it's communication sucks, but a lot of time it's just a matter of communication through a physical essence. And I found myself recently someone called me out on it cause I picked up the phone when they called me and I was like, what are you doing man? And that was what I usually say. And now he's like, why do you always ask what I'm doing? Cuz traditional people are saying, Hey, how are you? How are you doing? To me it's like, if I, if I could figure out what you're doing that's telling me how you're doing if you're out there having fun and, and on a hobby, going fishing, if I call Tyler and Tyler picks up, he's like, I'm in the middle of nowhere, woods doing some hunting. I know he's doing fine. You know what I mean? But I wanna know. It's not, it's not that I don't wanna know you're struggling. I wanna know what you're doing about it. What's your, what's your goal from here on out? And with the essence of like, how do we find a code word? Can we use yellow or green? Even that could be challenging for some people, so, Chris, let me ask you one question. What does a challenge coin do mean to you?
Chris:
01:02:10
A challenge coin for me in what it means to me is, is I got two different ones. I got my a once and I have the ones from my community, my fire services, things like that. Initially I would say that challenge coin meant like pride, honor, things like that. Over the years it took on more of like a machismo, ego kind of meaning connotation. Yeah. So for me, like the challenge coin is just like my patches on my wall. I got challenge coins over here. Yep. Well, it, it's a decoration piece and, and I'm, I'm proud of those cuz those are the connections I make and there's memories upon that, but it doesn't have the same kind of connotation and it did when I first started. Right now, when I look at my A one, it's like that actually means something to me. Like that is that 30 day chip, that one month chip, that three month chip, that nine that six month chip, like those actually for me carry a lot of weight and it's the currency of your.
Vince:
01:03:00
It's
Chris:
01:03:01
the currency of my success. Exactly. Of my personal success, not of other people's success, not what they're doing. It's my own personal success. Yes. And I've had to set those goals up and have others help me keep accountable to 'em so I can achieve them. And that's a community, that's the support that we're talking about.
Vince:
01:03:16
Right. So I wanna up this more than just a word. We have these challenge coins made, right? For the WTL podcast. Yeah. And what I asked for it, and let me get, it's, it's sorry it's all blurry. But what I asked for it, for the design is the say, the saying of exel excellence is your responsibility. One team, one fight, and on the back, plain and simple honor. Right? And my challenge for these members who want to be part of this organization, to be part of the Wounded Medic Foundation, to be part of this community that we're trying to build is that go back to historic, where people were actually carrying these in these in their pockets. Right? This is something they took its value. You probably do with your AA coins at this point. I do. Right? You carry your currency of excellence. And for me, if, if someone were to say or send us a picture, right? Whether it's email, text, or whatever it is, they throw that currency on the table, everything stops. We focus on you. Right? No judgment. No, no current. Like you don't have to pay for anything. It's just we'll call you, we'll sit down with you, we'll come out to you. Let's figure out what's going on. What is it that you're currently struggling with, that you took that outta your pocket and you to let go of it, put it on the table. It's almost like a token for our attention, right? Yeah. And you get to keep it. You get to maintain it. we have, we have officers now for our city who are carrying them in their vests. Right? Just to be able to have that mindset. If you carry something, it's like, all right, I'm not gonna forget that if I'm struggling, I got something in here that's currency, right? Yep. I've turned my, my garage into a cigar lounge and I have officers come up on, on their, on duty or off duty. I open up the garage. They could sit down and have a smoke, get away from public view, and just relax for a moment, right? Yeah. Have that safe space. And that's where we really want to build in this foundation, and nonetheless, it's all about, it's all about building a community. It's about building these, these partnerships. It's about doing something for the greater good, which is the success of our first responders in the military and that's what we're thriving for. So I'd love to see where we could send these out, build more, maybe make it even more a full metal, whatever, but just have our, our viewers and our members carry them. and then that be the the phrase word of saying, Hey, I need support.
Chris:
01:05:33
I like that. I mean, it's just like when you're at a bar and someone you know from a sister department wants to challenge you basically, cuz they want to get a free drink outta you, that's, that's all it is. It's just that's what it turned into. But you look at the root heritage of where that came from and and I like how you said that there are challenge points that I do actually have a lot of weight. This is one that was given to me by heavy lies to helmet. Yes. And it has a similar kind of meaning of what you're talking about. Right. And, and it's those things that actually do mean a lot, right? Like this coin was given to me with the story behind it and confidence it was personable than that I own, I hold that dear to my heart and having something like that, like a challenge coin where you're right, like my aco, like if I'm struggling, I'm having a, a bad moment or something like that. Like it's in my pocket, that's my currency to go, Hey do I really wanna play this one? Because if I have that drink, I'm gonna play this coin. And guess what? I don't get this coin anymore. and it's a reminder to go, Hey, this coin is actually more valuable to me than that, that that beverage will ever be. So just like you're saying, that is my line of safety. This is something that I know that once again, it's not October or anything, it's just you throw on a table, you text a picture of it out, everybody knows what it means. Hey. Yep. Cool. I hear you. We're coming. We got your six brother. Yep. Or sister, we're coming. We hear you. We see you. And things that we don't talk about, like dispatchers, things like that. How do we get these guys and gals more involved in the community and the communication, because it's across the board and I feel like they're very segmented. So and these were, were we have good ideas with podcasts, so those of you guys are listening. If you guys are sharing this stuff or having those communications, share your ideas of what you think might work, right. Because we need to have more of those conversations. I would highly encourage it.
Vince:
01:07:16
Yep. Take
Tyler:
01:07:18
collectively, they the listeners and future listeners are more experts than just the three of us put together if
Chris:
01:07:26
we're going down there. That's why you got a community. Yep. When I talk about aa, it's like, what, what kept you sober? Was it you? No, it wasn't me. It was my community. It was my habit, my routine. My normalization of my, of my struggles. Really over time that's, that's what brings it power. And more importantly, that's what keeps me going and keeps me on track, right? Like, I'm in a great mood today, this week I've been awesome. Why? Because I'm doing everything. I'm maintaining it. What I do find is when you start slacking off on it, I'm not doing it. I'm not taking time for myself, I'm not working out. I'm not getting it in the hot tub. I'm not reading, not doing those things. Guess what? I start feeling a little bit more anxious, a little bit more snippy, a little bit agitated. It's a sign and I become more I can recognize that now. I go, ah, why am I off? Ah, well you haven't been doing your normalization routine. Okay, cool. And I have to do it every day. Just like a diabetic has to do it. Just like an asthmatic has to take, if I don't do this stuff, it's gonna come back. It's always there. You learn how to be resilient. You learn how to carry it and have it not be so burdensome. More importantly, you learn how and when you need to take that pack back off and set it down or hand it off to somebody else. So keep going. I love this mission. I'm very passionate about it, and I would love this here. Just more conversation pieces about what other people are doing about this, because you never know what you're doing might actually help save somebody else. Yep. But you gotta get it out there. If nobody knows about it, you don't say it. You don't put it out in words like you should. If it's in here in your head, that helps you. Hopeful. But what we can do better about is helping others and being more involved. And that just comes by just having a good conversation. How you doing today? Mm-hmm. how's your life? Because you can get so much from someone about where they're at and what their state of mind is. So
Vince:
01:09:12
hold each other accountable. We always, when, especially when it comes to ConEd our, our systems and our companies and agencies, they're big about, did you finish this month's ConEd? Are you ready to renew? And everything is about the practice of what we do, but then there's nothing out there that's real. Like, what are we doing for mental health? right? Is there Con Ed for mental health? Is
undefined:
01:09:32
there,
Chris:
01:09:32
what are we doing to invest in our employee? The person, right? That's right. Because what we're, what we're looking at is a business transaction. Yes. I have a call. They provide a service. I pay them for that service. Right. That's exactly what's happening. And I hate that. Cuz we used to have the community in the in and in the courage and, and that mindset of, Hey, I'm an employee, I'm a loyal employee, but you're also a family member and I care about who you are. I care about what's going on in your life. I care about if you're having marital struggles. Because all of that actually does impact my business as an employee or as an owner. We just gotta shift the mindset. It's not a business transaction anymore guys. And it never was. Yeah. This is real people. They are dedicating their lives, their mental health states, their family, their future. to that employer, right? Like it's, it's mind blowing. If you actually sit back like what the actual provider actually commits to when they go accept a job. I'm accepting that I'm gonna, whatever's gonna come downstream, I'm gonna accept the calls, I'm gonna accept the trauma. And that sets me up for my entire rest of my life. I could be a five year medic work for a really bad agency and a bad system and burnout and begun and be gone in five years and never wanna look back. Yep. And it's happening now. Know I see more and more medics, I'm sorry, going to C NRN school, going to PA school, going to nursing school. Mm-hmm I don't see a lot of people going, Hey, I'm going to med school. I don't see near as many of those anymore. so just
Vince:
01:10:56
Tyler, right? Just Tyler
Chris:
01:11:00
Better late than never Tyler. That's right. It's okay. We welcome you to Club Open arms.
Vince:
01:11:05
Hundred percent. So what do we do? right? So what do we do? We
Chris:
01:11:09
go with this foundation where, where do we go from here? That's a good conversation. I think one of the things that we'd like to start especially with the viewers announcing a partnership between WAC Foundation and with infant lines with infant lines have always been your mission, your purpose is exactly aligned with what WAC Foundation does, which is having the conversation, normalizing the conversation in different types of conversations, whether it be addiction, substance abuse, depression, burnout. We're gonna start having these conversations and we're gonna start opening it up. We're gonna start, hopefully, creating tools and resources for people to get this stuff on demand and not have that fear as a barrier of just talking another human. Maybe that's the, maybe that one little step is what allows that individual to A, not go kill themselves, but B, take the next step into being that. Portion of it. So I think a partnership between the two having within them lines of the official podcast of Etic Foundation is definitely an honor. I can't wait to see the synergy and more importantly, continuing to foster that message and that safe space in that community. You do the same stuff that I I'm out here snow blowing old people's driveways in the morning, right. You're doing a, giving back to our community. It's just more than just one thing. And I think that speaks highly of the mission. And like I said, when I talked about my story, I don't want anybody to go through the experience that I want through, and I want there to be another option that they're aware of. And the only way we can make 'em aware of it is a, to create it and do something about it, and then communicate it as Tyler.
Vince:
01:12:40
Hundred percent. And first foremost, I mean, honor is all ours. You know what I mean? The, we've looked up to you, I mean, from joining, joining the Imed C m E collection to, to our final first release of an episode that's accredited to now being a partner with you and, and the greater good of the survivability of our first responders. I mean, that, that is a, a huge privilege for us and we, we we're honored to be here. We're gonna build this up to something even greater. I would love to see where we're, we're pushing out more content and specific of this, this conversation. Having the umbrella of the conversation, talking about training, talk about work ethic, talk about coming out and picking up hobbies, but then ultimately just checking up on each other, doing that, that buddy check, yeah. How to do a buddy check,
Chris:
01:13:23
how do I talk to someone who's going through a tough time? How do you initiate that conversation? A lot of people don't know when they're fearful, so they never even start it. So this is what one of the things that Vince and Tyler and the with Infant Lines team does very well. And, and we're gonna continue to perpetuate and amplify that communication and that message.
Vince:
01:13:42
Yep. So on our distribution of, of information when it comes to contact and how to reach us, we have a link. And on that we're gonna post the Wound Medic Foundation Facebook page some of the email contact as well to be able to contact you directly but ultimately it's just saying that challenge is here, this is open, this is open door. We welcome everybody who is a part of this community, even the family members who we wanna see family members be part of that. Cause our greatest asset and our greatest tools is what we're coming home to
Chris:
01:14:11
our, our support. And I've been asked, you'd be, you'd be surprised since I kicked off the WMA Foundation, I've been asked by a lot of spouses of first responders. what resources do you have? Who and I, and that actually caught me off guard. So it's one of my things that I'm hoping to implement in 2023 is, is a support group for the spouses of first responders and military personnel, because they're at just as big of a shock as the individual themselves, if not more. Mm-hmm. So we're
Vince:
01:14:38
actually doing a buddy check tomorrow on a veteran who's, who's been he's unfortunately succumbed to alcohol, right? He is isolated himself. It's been three years. And the person who reached out to us for his help is a spouse, mm-hmm. He was able to encounter Dan, one of our cadre members, started the conversation, normalized the idea, like, Hey, somebody's having a bad day, let's go figure it out and we're gonna go do buddy check tomorrow for him. We're gonna go out and drive two hours, or go check up on him, have a seat with him. And just normalize the mindset of like, Hey, we've got veterans on our team. We got first responders. He used to be a cop. What can we do now to get you back on your feet? and that's there we go. Ultimately, that, that's the goal. So family is a big aspect of this. It's not
Chris:
01:15:20
going outta your way though, because you love to do this. No, it's not.
Vince:
01:15:22
It's not, you
Chris:
01:15:23
know, so I wanna licensed you. Like, if you guys here, like this is not us going outta the way. This is us doing what we love to do. Right. And that's, and, and hopefully if you're listening to this, you're a part of this community, you're, you're doing something similar. You could, it could be something as small as taking the trash from your neighbor in who's elderly to checking in on a friend who might be going through something or a family member who might be struggling, but it all starts with you in action.
Vince:
01:15:45
Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. And that's the goal we want, is to be able to see these numbers. And, and I've talked about this before and a lot of people wonder like, how many viewers do you have? Like, yeah, we have, we have means and access to be able to count that, but it's not the viewers we're looking for. It's the people who were saying, Hey, coming to us saying, Hey, I'm struggling. I need help. Those are the numbers we really stick to, and we're really built big. So we're gonna achieve that tomorrow. And that's, that's kind of a goal of the show here. But how do we make this into a bigger thing? When it comes to family and first responders, eventually I'd love to see our podcast table. Mikes nothing but family members where we're stepping out and they're running the show or the episode to talk about what they do and how, how they manage, how they cope. So that's that's a big aspiration. We're gonna do some
Chris:
01:16:27
good. Yeah. I think there're gonna be some good, good content, good discussions and good podcasts coming out. And more importantly moving to some in-person events. You wanna talk about some of those? Yes. Yes. Or Tyler? Tyler. Where's Tyler's? That's,
Vince:
01:16:40
this is Tyler's world here. All, all,
Chris:
01:16:48
well
Tyler:
01:16:49
with kind of that wounded medic and inspiration. This is something me and Vince and, and I have my little niche in the world, and Vince always loves to hone on it when it comes to the Recreation, the natural world, getting away from lights and sirens. So future events we're looking at setting some stuff up where we can start introducing people to kinda recreate in a way that's in their backyard at a level that they can all accomplish and do, and something they can continue to do. It's not a lot of these events there's different organizations and foundations out there. They like to just do something and, and, and have a good time. They do some good work, takes pictures, call it a day and go home. We're looking to kind of build our team through these events a little bit, and that person who goes through whatever we, whatever we get established currently, we've got one event scheduled this spring will be Taking a bunch of people out fishing. It'll be a fishing event with that's already been established. I was kind of fortunate enough to, I have a relationship with the, the captain that the charters and he puts on this on his own. And the one he was having some a light year where some people canceled and they wanted know if I'd come up and help fish and, and or fish and help him and, and enjoy it. And he's doing a great thing. So there's people out there already doing it without a name, without an organization, our organization. So we're gonna be starting to kick that off and we're gonna be shaping in how we do that. So that's my little niche. It's all about what you as an individual bring to the table. As far as you out there listening in the world, what can you do to help better health? For me, all I know when things are stressful, I run. Where there's not people there is a woods, a lake or somewhere, and I am on like, it's just kind of an unspoken thing between me and my wife. She knows. Just gives me the head nod and I'm, I'm, I'm out. Obviously with all household things taken care of, of course, but that's where I go. So I'm gonna try to allow my ability and my little niche in the world what I like to do and provide it for other people and start building that communication where we can talk about culture, where we can talk about communication skills, where we can talk about people who have been there, who have seen family, friends, patients, been there. Maybe that new introductory initial training law enforcement officer, firefighter where we can just start to A, physically gather and then, and B, enjoy each other. Show you a resource or a rec way to recreate in which you may not know or know, have no experience in that's in your backyard that you can pick up or teach somebody else, or just, just enjoy the day. Say it was great, enjoy the fellowship and continue the conversation on. So that's what we're looking to do here. We've got
Chris:
01:20:16
a couple hopeful, hopefully meet some new friends that you can now reach out to and text that's the important thing it's like, Hey, I now met so many people through Crash and learn that now. It's like, Hey, if I have a, I have more people. I got more, more people part of my tribe now, and it's awesome through those connections. Yep. Yep.
Vince:
01:20:33
So our
Tyler:
01:20:33
aspirations, partnerships with it too. Yeah. That, that's the the biggest thing so far with charting to set this up. This solely turned into knowing a guy with a business who's just wanted to do this out of the goodness of his heart. No, no. Like I said, that's, that's what he did. I seen what he was doing and then that relationship has already there, but then it's grown to a few, cuz he is got a few other guys in his industry that do the same thing. So we which is what I've, so whether you wanna enjoy the day with us or, or as a member of that outing, or if you wanna be a partner and say, Hey, I like doing whatever blank this is what I'm good at, this is what I have established. Hey, I'd love to do this or put this on, we'll take it, we'll run with it as fast as we can in whatever direction we see and what we can do to put more people. in the outdoors into that source of recreation to try to help find those, those balancing for their mental health or this whole conversation we just had, so,
Chris:
01:21:44
With the W Mag Foundation, that's kind of like we've taken the similar model we, we did this year with just like the first retreat. We're gonna do a couple kind of bigger cheats in 2023, just a less than a handful as we kind of learned the process and things like that. But the whole idea with the W Mag Foundation is hopefully to grow into more like the I F F model where there are a state chapter and there's local chapters that the head she can support because it's not just about getting out we could be setting up like waterpark days or go to the pool day or movie day or backyard barbecue day or go to the bowling alley. There's other things. The whole idea is not necessarily getting remote obviously I like her remote. I'm like you Tyler, but it's to create those opportunities for connection. Discussion more importantly, right? And we, what we've found is we have to create the opportunity. Nobody's gonna go out there and do it for us, right? We, we, were all sitting here waiting for somebody to do it, and we're just now having to do it. And that's what we're doing here. on those conversations. So it's you guys are gonna start seeing in probably in 2024, at least with the Women Medic Foundation, we're gonna start supporting these local popup events where, hey they, they reach out it could be the state organization, the local organization, right? They fill out a form, Hey, we want to have 20 providers. We wanna provide pizza. This is how much money we need. And through obviously the generalist supports of donors and members of the organization we're able to fund events like that to create that initiative. Right? You get it kind of Steamboat, because I, I, I share your your sentiment, Tyler, and, and that I feel like this is a way to really get traction and break down some barriers pretty quickly, but we gotta create the opportunities for that to happen. Exactly. You're seeing the people take the lead now, like within thin lines and you guys are doing it, so, yeah. And I'm happy to be a part of that. So I know you, you, you guys mentioned some of the podcasts going into some of the, the, the colleges and training programs and things like that and just having a conversation like I'm like, Hey, that's great. Maybe we can see if we can do this in some other parts of the country as well. So, exactly. That would be a problem. Great idea to come. Yeah. Well, it all starts with a conversation and, Hey, you had a great idea. Hey, cool. I like that. I'm gonna go try to run with it and be creative. And that's all it is. People listen and it's just, don't, don't say it's don't worry about what, whose idea it is. Just go do it. Exactly. Take it, run with it. It, it was your idea. Okay, I'll just say it right now. It was your idea. Just do it. Just
Vince:
01:24:07
do it for the greater
Tyler:
01:24:08
good. When we started cutting teeth, you know when, when Vince finally. Got some microphones in front of us way back in the day on just the art of conversation. So it was just, let's just start talking. Let's just, like, these are things that we clearly all see. We joke, we sometimes don't joke. It's a serious manner, but it was, it was the art of the conversation. Then we found ourselves with all these other different organizations and, and we'd love being partners with 'em, and we love the art of conversation about they wanted whatever outing they had. So now it's just I kind of flipped back to the challenge coin a minute ago. When, yes. You know what a challenge coin, at least for me, is when I receive one, it's whatever for I, I got more paper weights than anything, but it's, it's the, how can I recipro, reciprocate, man, I'll butcher that word every day, reciprocate what I've done. To the next person to give them the tools, give them the ability to do the same experience, or the task that I the opportu that I had to do in whatever opportunity or circumstances were. So does this kind of grow as we love having the conversation. We love having any conversation about any foundation or any topic. We're passionate about mental health. But then I we kind of looked at each other and I looked at myself and said, you know what, what have Ive done and had the opportunity to do through some other different organizations. And now that's my challenge, is to just keep extending it, keep extending a conversation, keep extending resource and out outreach. And then just pushing ourselves and growing and doing more of us out there.
Chris:
01:25:59
Perfect. And that's what we're doing. We're, we're this, this, this is at least for me, this is the, this is the battle cry. This is it. I'm calling it out. I'm, I'm challenging everybody out there, do something. This is it. It could be a little as I, I give people a challenge. Text somebody, three people every morning. Just tell 'em one thing that you're appreciative of. That's all you gotta do. You know how much better that sets up my day personally. Mm-hmm. just by doing that, just showing gratitude. Mm-hmm. so mm-hmm. keep giving back when you get in that spot back, making sure you guys are all following within the line. So you guys know when these events are happening. Check us out on the WinMac fan. We'll have the, the, hopefully the website will be live by January 1st. And and this is, this is the start of the revolution. I'm not, I'm not listening and this is why I did education with, I met, I got tired of playing by other people's rules. the same rules I've been handcuffed and held accountable to this was the way we've always done it and I went out and set forth and did something on my own with other people that believed in me, that helped support me. And we, we can do this and we know that I've done it, we've tried it, and we're doing the same thing now. If you're out there, if you share our passion, if you share the message and whatever you can do to contribute something is better than nothing, we challenge you to start the rally, start the battle cry, normalize this stuff, have the conversations. You can have these conversations where they're not direct and they're not awkward. Hopefully some tools will come out soon that'll help you guys give those have those resources to have those conversations. So,
Vince:
01:27:31
absolutely. But keep. So stay tuned with us for the actual release of that date. It's gonna be sometime in March. I mean, ideally it's gonna turn into a conference and also efficient charting a lot of logistics stuff we're figuring out yet. But this is gonna be our first go and we'd love to see you all there. Reach out to us at, stay@wtlpodcast.us with your interest. Any questionnaires or even if you want to take our challenge and get a challenge coin we're willing to send these out to you be part of the community, start the conversation now and just grow into a family of first responders and, and military veterans. So with Chris, is there, what's the good website they could go to to support the Wounded Medic Foundation? Right
Chris:
01:28:11
now it just follows on our Facebook page. Once I have the memberships and the donor support portals up, hopefully in January we're gonna have memberships annual memberships for basically the providers where it gives 'em access to any of our pop-ups, any of the retreats that we do. And they'll also get a patch and a couple stickers to say thank you for their donation essentially. And that's an annual membership. And then we're also opening up and looking at corporate ownerships, things like that from other organizations and collaborating with other organizations as well to help provide this resource, whether it be a pre-con at a conference or other things like that. So this is evolving, but stay tuned. And once again, as Vince said, we can't do this without the community and the support of all of you. So we thank you guys for that support. We thank you for being a part of it and actually caring and being human. That's the important part. I think we lost touch, is we stopped caring about our fellow survivor cuz we were drowning ourselves. So now that some of us are recovering, let's see how many of those people we can help and, and change into that kinetic energy that Tyler refers to.
Vince:
01:29:09
Perfect. And in the meantime, you could also support us and the show and the WME Foundation through our patron. We also have Venmo and PayPal and all donations go to exactly, to the show. Exactly. The Emec Foundation, exactly to our mission to be able to support the rest of the first responder community. So before we leave closing thoughts, Chris,
Chris:
01:29:29
let's Good to have conversations like this. I like having conversations because a, i, I mean, from when we started this conversation where I am now, I actually feel more at peace because I was able to tell my story again and give it less power. Be normal. Have the conversation, check in with people, say hi. Just be a good human and give back when you can, you're not always gonna be at that a level, but inaction in itself is, is no action. So it's up to you. Challenge accept it, or challenge status quo.
Tyler:
01:30:01
It's just great to be back. Having conversations again. And for those of you that are like might have listened a little bit or, and really haven't like we talked normalized that if it doesn't feel right, it's probably not right. You should talk about it or, or, or address it. Bring it up and we will gladly, we'll be the first I'll volunteer us to be the first person to listen to gladly. So if you got something going on, just, just let's talk about it. That's it. So
Chris:
01:30:35
if you're even having that thought of being fearful of talking to someone, that's just, that should be your red flag. That should be your play. Exactly. Hey, I don't wanna really talk to anybody about this right there. That, that's, it is your number one. That was, that's the other guy saying, Hey man, you should probably listen to me. And then the other guy over here is like, Uhuh, I'm scared of shit. Uhuh not
Vincent ODUB:
01:30:54
doing it. Resources. Now, if you find yourself in a difficult time, your challenge against those demons the National Suicide Prevention Hotline has now changed number to nine eight eight. You could call text 'em anytime. We also have a business line that will actually cycle through all our cadre members until somebody picks up. Our business line is 8 44 stay w t l. That's 8 4 4 7 8 2 9 9 8 5. We will be willing to get you in that, in that position you need help for. So we got your sixth. We also got your 12 to show you where to go and how to proceed with those challenging times. So from us all here at the, W T L podcast, I guess now the Wounded Medic Foundation that is within these thin lines, it's been an honor, it's been a privilege. The partnership moving forward is gonna be an exciting phase that we're entering. But thank you both for being here and for everybody viewing. Take us up on that challenge. We'd love to see you in the the long term here in the ride. So stay safe, stay healthy, and just stay within thin lines.
