The following transcript is from the first episode of the second season of the podcast Wired to Lead, hosted by Julia LeFevre.
Julia LeFevre: Every leader carries strengths and every leader has gaps. This season of Wired to Lead is an exploration of what happens when we stop hiding our leadership deficits and start learning from them. We're going to talk honestly about where we have fallen short, what those moments revealed about us, and the growth that followed when we were willing to do the work. You're going to hear conversations with leaders who have faced their own limits and allowed that awareness to shape them not into perfect leaders, but into more grounded, present, and trustworthy ones. Because when leaders grow from the inside out, they are so much better equipped to serve others. Are you ready? Welcome to season two of Wired to Lead. Today's guest is Michael Anderson. Michael is a leadership coach who brings just as much rhythm as insight into the room. When he's not helping leaders communicate with clarity and courage, he is playing drums in a band or recovering from the time he crashed his motorcycle on a road trip to Florida. So, Michael blends lived experience, curiosity, and deep care for people, which makes conversations with him both grounded and surprisingly fun. So, welcome to Wired to Lead, Michael. I am so excited to have you here.
Michael Anderson: Thank you, Julia. It is very exciting to be here. I am so grateful and excited to be with you this afternoon.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. So, as I was thinking about our conversation today, I was thinking about that time when you reached out and said, "Yeah, I just wrecked my motorcycle and all of these things happened." Um, just curious, what leadership lessons did you learn from crashing and burning?
Michael Anderson: Wow. I think what I was able to appreciate is that in the moment, yes, I was very upset, not in the least bit happy about what was happening. However, what I liked was my response—it was one of, "Okay, this happened. I can't change it. I just have to move forward". And even my wife commented afterwards, after my first surgery, you know, she said, "You know, you're different now. The last time you had surgery, you were surly. You were grumpy. You were impatient. You were not fun to be around. This time though, you're much more thoughtful. You're grateful. You're even humble. And you care about how this is affecting me, not just how it's affecting you. And honestly, I'm happy to take care of you. I'm glad I get to help you recover". And I was in pretty rough shape at the time. And so, just being able to see and celebrate growth was, I think, a real victory in all of that.
Julia LeFevre: Man, that's such a good illustration of what we're really kind of trying to focus on this season at Wired to Lead—that a lot of times our growth happens through our failures, or it's our failures that kind of hold up that mirror to us and help us to recognize how we have grown.
Michael Anderson: Yes. If there's anything else in that adventure, it would be "trust your gut" because my gut was telling me, "Yeah, probably not a good idea." And I did it anyway. I thought, "Ah, it's going to be okay," and then I ended up getting rear-ended by somebody and, as they say, that's all she wrote.
Julia LeFevre: That's all she wrote. Well, thankfully, it's not all she wrote because there is life after the story. But there is... you know, your leadership growth journey and mine intersected a few years ago. And like the introduction said, what we're really wanting to do is to just be really open and honest. This isn't a show where we're going to come and brag about all the great things we've done; we're here to humanize leadership and to really show our audience that growth happens when we get honest and vulnerable. And so, I've talked about a little bit of my journey in the past, but we'll definitely revisit some. Back when I was experiencing pretty profound anxiety, that led me to join a process group, and that's where I met you. And so, I'm just curious, what led you to be a part of a process group in the first place? What leadership gaps were you working on at the time?
Michael Anderson: If I go through the whole list, we'll be here all day. But I do want to double-click on something you said just a moment ago about humanizing leadership. I actually refer to the leadership development that I do—a leadership framework—as "humanizing leadership". What I'm trying to do—and what drove me into this, why I decided to do yet another process group... by the time I got to the group we were in, I think that was my sixth year of being in and out of groups. And it's to what you were just talking about at the beginning of the show: we've got gaps. Geez, I sound like Rocky, don't I? You got gaps, I've got gaps. So, we have these gaps; we don't have it all together. And in fact, I'm getting ready to do a session here with a group in a few days, and I like using the Peter Drucker quote that says, "Anybody who thinks that well-rounded people are people who have all strengths and no weaknesses, well, that's a recipe for disaster". And to be able to acknowledge and be comfortable with our gaps, ironically, is how we overcome our gaps. They still exist, but they don't take us out at the knees.
Julia LeFevre: You know, I think that's where so many leaders get stuck: there's this sense that the higher the leadership ladder you climb, the more perfect you have to become, and there's less grace and less flexibility for any sort of imperfection.
Michael Anderson: That is so true. I was talking earlier today with someone that I'm doing some work with, and we were talking about leadership and when we fall victim to these leadership archetypes that we think we need to aspire to—the leader who can, like we said, do it all—we end up dehumanizing ourselves. We don't allow ourselves to be human. And so as leaders, I think it's imperative that we embrace what we do well and do that, and don't try to do the things—and they may be leadership things—that we don't do because we're not designed, as it were, to do those. You know, we put this unnecessary burden on ourselves to be something that, quite frankly, we're not.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. And that was a big part of my story: I grew up firstborn in my family, a daughter, a perfectionist, a high achiever—all of those things. And continuing to aim for those levels of performance led me to pretty profound anxiety. And my body eventually said, "Nope, we're done. We can't do this anymore". And I remember a huge part of my process of being able to let go of that sense of perfection was getting more comfortable with my imperfections, with my gaps. And it was so interesting that that was also right in the time where... my name is Julia, but for so many years people called me Julie. I had often wanted to change it, and I could not get people to change it. But you kind of punctuated my name, and it was almost this symbolic process of saying, "I want to see you as you—good, bad, ugly, or whatever". So just interesting.
Michael Anderson: Yeah. I was going to say it when you got started there: one of my first memories and realizations—because I met you as Julie—and for a few months you were Julie, and then at some point you mentioned, "Actually, my name's Julia". I think in so many ways what you went through and how our relationship evolved really is about humanizing; to lose your name is so dehumanizing. And I just wanted to be a champion for you. So when I found out that your name was Julia, like, "Julia!" Let's really put an exclamation point on that and celebrate who you are.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. And I think that's one of your greatest gifts. And I remember one time, I was really struggling and our group had homework partners. I don't remember if that's how we were originally paired up or if I was just like, "Michael will be okay, he'll have something for me". And I still remember the parking lot I was sitting in in our little town. And you said something so profound, and it has stuck with me to this very day. And so I'm expressing my angst about my current situation and my own leadership gaps and trying to grow in those, and you told me, you were like, "You know, Julia, all communication is a negotiation for identity". Did I get it right?
Michael Anderson: Yes. Yeah.
Julia LeFevre: So just on the name thing, tell our audience what were you talking about and how have you seen that to be true?
Michael Anderson: Well, thanks. It really feels good to hear you say that, so thank you for telling me that story and reminding me of how that landed with you. You know, this is one of the most fascinating things personally that I found when I was working on my Master's degree in Communication and Leadership. I did my thesis work on identity and essentially every act of communication, every dialogue, is at some level about our identity—it's the meta up here in the clouds what the communication is about. And so when I was talking with you, I wanted to affirm in you that the miscommunications that you're experiencing and some of the stress and strain that you were experiencing at work was part of this wrestling with your identity and the other person that you're in dialogue with wrestling with their identity and the identity that they're trying to put on you, right? And I'm saying you don't have to take that on, and kind of pull back the curtain on conversation and on dialogue.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. It was so eye-opening because I realized the problem is rarely the problem. The argument or the stress that we're dealing with in the moment is rarely about the topic that is being discussed. It is so much more likely that it... and here's the my tree for listeners who don't see this: I have my tree logo in the back and there's all this complex root system at the bottom. Really, the root issues of most struggles in a leader's life trace back to: Does that leader know who they are? Does that leader know what they are created to do and be, and does that leader have the confidence to live that out? And at the time, that was my gap: I didn't know who I was; I had not defined that. My capacity for definition of who I was was very weak. And so, yeah, it was just something that was so helpful to start me defining who I am.
Michael Anderson: If I may, what your experience, however, for years was people ascribing to you an identity that was untrue because, in reality, they were weak and they could not handle your strength. And they kept... well, they kept putting you in a box, didn't they? And they kept saying, "No, you need to stand down. You need to be less than what you are". And I just love telling people, "Be more of who you are," especially gifted women leaders such as yourself. And I continue to say this to people as I'm teaching and talking through different strengths and gifts: "Look, there's this woman I know who is an amazing leader who was being shut down". And I remember telling her, "You have all the makings of a great leader and I would be happy to serve under you and follow your leadership," and even what you've done in the past couple years. Well, I'm not surprised, you know, so good for you.
Julia LeFevre: You point a finger to something that's so important, and that is that so often our identity is shaped by our past experiences with how people have treated us. And that's really tricky because it's our identity, and yet I had let my experiences shape me. And what the turning point was for me was understanding I can change my experiences because now I have agency to choose, right? Who am I going to be around? What experiences are okay with me? And I think I need people who are going to recognize my strength and cheer them on. Instead of the opposite. And you were one of those first people, and it really was transformational.
Michael Anderson: Nice. I like that for you, and I like it for me. It's nice to be able to help people, you know. I think you're so right. I like to say that there's no "me" without a "we". Our identity has to be formed in community. Um, and we could get into the theology of all that if you want to, but I don't think we want to; I'm just going to leave it at that. There's no "me" without a "we." And so, absolutely, what you're saying is true: our identity is in many ways shaped by our past. And so, we look at finding out... there's that element of self-awareness. Then there's that element of science, if you will, that tells us about who we are through different assessments and that sort of thing. But then the relational aspect: what are people saying to us and about us? So you have what I would say is mass communication, interpersonal communication, and intrapersonal communication—the dialogue that I have with myself.
Julia LeFevre: Man, as I'm listening to you say all those things, I'm thinking there may be some people out there who kind of bristle at the idea of our own identity being formed by the "we," not just "me". Especially in our individualistic society. And yet, what all the brain science is telling us—yeah, even season two, I'm going to bring out my brain, I have my cross-section—that this part of your brain, your amygdala that houses your emotional memories, what it has felt like to be you, that is where the identity creation is as far as how we live it out. The great news is that this can be changed, but it doesn't change from a single decision from a single person. Your brain, especially this part of your brain, needs somebody else. So for me, it was Michael to come in and assure me: "You do have strengths and you have weaknesses, and that's okay".
Michael Anderson: Yep. That is... it's very okay.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. So that circles us back to this idea of: Do leaders have to be perfect?
Michael Anderson: No. Who wants to be around somebody who's perfect? If you're perfect, there's no space for me. Where do I get to contribute? What do I get to do? I think ultimately being around someone who has no weaknesses, it leaves a gap.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. So throughout the process of the process group and even since then—because it's been a few years—the motorcycle accident showed you some growth. Tell us a little bit more about that. What was the root issue in the difference between you being angsty and, in your words, "maybe a little more of a jerk," and then the more recent example where you just kind of plugged in and took it?
Michael Anderson: You know, it's becoming more comfortable in your own skin. Honestly, and this sounds like a recipe for narcissism, but it's not: really starting to love yourself. And that's one of the things I love to do: to help people fall in love with themselves. And for you, Julia, it was heartbreaking for me as how "hang dog" you were and how you thought you were such a problem. And when as an outsider looking in, I can go, "No, wait a minute. Yeah, you can be problematic. Sure, we all can. But you've got some horsepower that is really being choked and that needs to stop". It's just not honoring; it's dehumanizing. And so it was with the motorcycle accident: I was able to get on top of my circumstances, right? And what I mean by that is not become bitter. I wasn't happy that it happened, but I didn't become bitter. I was able to accept the circumstances and look for opportunities, look for gifts, if you will, even in some really unpleasant circumstances.
Here's an example: the motorcycle that I was riding—if somebody out there is a gearhead—it was a BMW R1200 RT, a sport touring bike. It's beautiful. I'd had it for less than a year. I'd been riding for maybe 20 years. My favorite bike. And even though it was my favorite bike, I was still thinking about maybe selling it because I wasn't riding a lot and it's expensive, it takes up room in the garage, blah blah blah. Well, before I even hit the ground after I got rear-ended, I knew that I was done. My answer was provided; the bike was destroyed. And I didn't have the energy or the inclination to go hunting around for another motorcycle and all that goes into replacing all the gear and everything else. And so it really simplified things in a lot of ways. And as a result, that means I get to spend more time taking trips with my wife instead of taking trips by myself on my motorcycle or with a friend on a motorcycle. And I've done a lot of work, Julia, with our group, but then also with myself, with mental fitness and tuning up my brain and making it stronger, so that we don't get into those amygdala hijacks so quickly or we can get out of them quicker than we had before. And so those are the gifts. And as I was sliding down the road, honestly thinking about what the CAT scans and X-rays are going to show, I was also thinking, "This is an opportunity for me to grow". It's not the one I would have chosen—it's not fun—but it's still an opportunity to grow. And that is what I am going to choose to do in this circumstance.
Julia LeFevre: So really, sliding down the road, you're thinking there is almost this sense of resignation—or maybe resignation isn't the right word, maybe it's surrender—to, "Okay, there's going to be some stuff that I'm going to have to face. I can't change my circumstances as much as I'd like to, so how am I going to make friends with my circumstances, basically"?
Michael Anderson: Better word.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah, man. I just think that's something that so many of us, leader or not, how many of us let our circumstances have total control over our inner sense of peace and well-being, our inner sense of identity—who we are? And it's something that kind of circles us back to the idea of definition—of defining who are you regardless of if you can get out and go for a run or go and... fill in the blank. Are you still the same person with the same values, with the same list of things to do, purpose?
Michael Anderson: Right. Right. You bring up such an important distinction there. The things that we can do, as it were—the different jobs we have—I really see those as roles. And as our identity matures and we are able to root it in things that are more essential, less fleeting than "I'm a motorcyclist" or "I'm not a motorcyclist". A lot of athletes struggle with this because as they move out of competitive athletics, it becomes a real identity puzzle for them. But when we get down to: What are your values, Julia? What are the things that you value in life? That's more essential and that describes who you are. And as you know, I really am a huge fan of the CliftonStrengths assessment. What are you designed to do? Do that. Don't try to do stuff that you're not designed to do; it's not going to go well.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. Well, and I can speak directly to that because I will never forget another time when I told you, "I hate CliftonStrengths," and you looked horrified. And I said, "Yeah, because I have strengths that are terrible". And we ended up walking through them. And at the end of that, after I had told you my strengths—which are Competition, Achiever, Learner, Intellection, and Significance—so kind of, if I remember right, a weird combination or unusual, I don't know.
Michael Anderson: Well, Significance is one of the rarest talents, so that right there puts you in a very unique category. And then with Competition up at the top, and Achiever, I mean you are a powerhouse. I look at that, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing what you are able to do." We're talking moving mountains. I mean, look at you: you've got your own podcast. I told you: "Start your own business". You've flown past me in business. It's exciting and frustrating to see.
Julia LeFevre: It's like, "Wait a minute!" Yeah, but my experience with those strengths had been negative because people didn't receive me with those, right? And so they hurt me and I was really frustrated. And what amazed me—and so here's my plug for Michael's coaching business—is that he started telling me things, and by the way, this was only after we had known each other for maybe four or five months, so not very long. And he started telling me things about my life that nobody had said before or recognized. And I thought, "How on earth do you know this?" Things like, "I imagine you have often risen to leadership roles and then you feel misunderstood a lot". And I'm just... by the time I was done I was just weeping almost, thinking, "He sees me. How does he see me"? And I think it's because of the training and just the insight that you bring to it—and maybe this is the core clarity that comes in with strengths, and you can say more about that—but it was the first time where I started to see and it started to reinforce that who I was was not bad, was something that was okay and actually good and could contribute to our world. So, thank you.
Michael Anderson: Thank you. Yeah. Wow. That just gives me chills. And you know, it's why I love doing what I do, especially... I don't know why, especially helping women in leadership. I can remember before you talk, I was doing a seminar for women leaders and at the end this one woman got up and said, "I finally like myself". And I was getting teary listening to her, honestly: "I finally like who I am and I see that the strengths that I bring to the table—yeah, I can use them more effectively, but there's nothing wrong with me". And that is what was so frustrating to me about your situation: that your design—and I'll go out on a limb, let's say, and say your God-given design—was not being honored, which is insulting and dehumanizing to you. But it really isn't the best stand to take when we're basically saying to God, "Hey, what happened on Julia day? Weren't you paying attention? This isn't what we need here". You know, I'm going, "No, wait a minute, this is exactly what you need". And that's how we got into that communications about identity. And I'm going, "No, this isn't about you, Julia. This is about your leader and his issues. Let's talk about how awesome you are".
The CoreClarity angle is... I like to refer to CoreClarity as CliftonStrengths on steroids. So, if any of you guys out there listening are CliftonStrengths fans, let's talk, because when you look at how the talents are working together and what's really going on inside your core, holy smokes, it is a game changer. And it gives you permission to be great at some things and not so great at other things.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. And I think too—and one thing I want to clarify: you've painted me as just this great whatever—but sometimes those strengths, when they are overblown, can contribute to the dysfunction and damage of an organization. And so, that's part of the clarity that came: being able to see where to step in and use those strengths and when to let others. And I think I had come from an all-or-nothing perspective where I felt like I needed to do everything. So, guess what? People's toes got stepped on. I was pushing into places that may or may not have been open to me. So there were some legitimate things, but it was so clarifying, it was so direction-setting—like, hey, validate—it was validating to who I was. And then it set me on a trajectory to, like you said, "Go start your own thing. Go, and go as fast as you can because that's what you're good at". And I wouldn't be here today if I had not had some of that coaching.
Michael Anderson: Wow. Well, that's good to hear, thank you. I think what you and so many women face are cultural headwinds, right? I look at this list that you've got here: Competition, Achiever, Learner, Intellection, Significance. Those are not necessarily honored in women, right? You win; people in Competition are just natural winners, they are competitors, there's a lot of energy there. And that's okay, right? And then, but you get stuff done. Achiever, Learner, Intellection—you're wicked smart. Let's not pull any punches here. And then Significance: you want to do great things, and that's fantastic. Now, some guy shows up with that, it's great: "Yes, go discover a new continent or something". But if it's a woman, it's like, "Uh, you know, we don't really need that. You need to dial it back a little bit there, sweetie," sort of thing. And I'm going, "No, not at all. That is not what this is about". And guys will face it if they have talents like Empathy, Communication, Connectedness, Harmony—some of those softer things. So we have these cultural headwinds, you know, and I really want to make it very clear that I'm not subscribing to the gender stereotypes at all; I'm just looking at: what are the talents? Let's just do it. And then when you add another cultural context—you working in the church environment—holy smokes, you guys are swimming upstream in most cases when it comes to women in leadership. In fact, I'm speaking in and playing in the worship band at a conference in Thailand next week. And I noticed that all four people leading it are women. And I made a point to say, "Looks like this entire conference is being led by women. I think that's fantastic". I love that for you guys, and that you've been given that freedom and that authority.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah, I am excited to hear that too. Yay, go Thailand! So, tell us a little bit about... so you mentioned going to Thailand. I know that you just got back from Kenya. And so you're doing a lot of work overseas, too. Tell us a little bit about what is happening across the world in the world of Michael Anderson coaching.
Michael Anderson: Well, they dig me there, which is nice. You know, it is nice. I can't really get an audience here, I don't know. No, I just... the Kenya thing started because I was coaching a woman. I coached her through her top five CliftonStrengths and she said to me, "You are the first coach who has ever told me what's inside of me and how I can apply that in leadership and how that would make me a good leader". And it just so happened, you know, in Nairobi she works with a lot of women in leadership, and she said, "I want the women I work with to experience from you what I did". And so we started that dialogue almost two years before that trip ended up taking place. And I had so much fun over there talking about this concept that I call "Neuro-Leadership," where we look at how the brain is shaped by relationship, by interaction, by circumstances even. I was there for a week; I was their only teacher for a week, and the people who put it together couldn't believe it that the 30-some students stayed through the entire thing. They're all professionals—scientists, researchers—and they were like, "No one... everybody begs off and ditches this after one or two days". But I actually had people who had to leave to do a project say, "Can I come back to this training?" That felt great. And then they said, "We've been through a lot of leadership training. You were the first person to tell us these things about neurology and how our brain shapes leadership and trust".
And we did a lot of CoreClarity/CliftonStrengths work as well. We talked about what I call "Human Power Skills," because now that we can measure the brain and we can see what's happening in the brain in real time, heretofore "soft skills" such as Empathy—we can now see how it's affecting people and measure it. So I like to refer to those as Human Power Skills. And I'll be doing a similar thing in Thailand and talking with people in Singapore. I used to live in Singapore and so I'm going over there and saying, "Hey, I'm getting involved in some really cool leadership stuff". And the folks in Kenya were saying, "This is next-gen leadership. This is the future of leadership, not the stuff about strategic planning and organization and all that other stuff that we've heard, but this is scientific, neurological leadership and it's going to make a difference". So, like, "How soon can you get back here?" So we're working on that.
Julia LeFevre: That's great. Well, I agree with you that I do think this is next-gen leadership, and I'm so grateful for it. Because in an age where technology is really hyping up and it's just growing exponentially, we have to figure out how to maintain the human side of leadership. And so I love what you're doing and, yeah, excited about that.
Michael Anderson: Well, you're right. And interestingly enough, you are scientifically, verifiably right. It was, what, 20 years ago, I think, when the expression "culture eats strategy for breakfast" was coined. And research was showing that technological advances 20 years ago would make a difference for about nine months, and then everybody else caught up. And as things continue to advance, it's like watching a lightning strike. AI happens and then boom, everybody's using it. And this is one of the points I was making working with these organizations: your competitors are going to catch up to you in days. What was going to make a difference is your culture. How well your people are performing is a direct relationship with your culture. How safe, how seen, how heard, how engaged really are they? That's the difference-maker right there.
Julia LeFevre: I so agree. And just to circle all the way back to where we started, it's why it's so important for the leader—the senior leader—to own their gaps, to start growing their gaps, so that they can help their teams to do the same thing. Because culture is impacted the most by the senior leader. And so I love that you're out there to help people. If there's a senior leader out there who... they kind of know their strengths, maybe like me, but they don't really know how it can really change their leadership, or they don't even know... how could they get a hold of you?
Michael Anderson: Oh, thanks. Thank you, Julia. Go to my website, andersonlr.com. It's Anderson Leadership Resources, but andersonlr.com. There's a button on the homepage that says "Let's Connect". Click that, and free 30-minute coaching call. Let's talk about what's going on, what you'd like to figure out.
Julia LeFevre: Awesome. Well, I mean, I hope our listeners heard already from me, but I couldn't recommend Michael more. He has just a unique insight into how we are all made up and what our strengths are, what our weaknesses are, but how to grow those. And so, highly encourage you to reach out to him. And Michael, thank you for being with me on this episode of Wired to Lead.
Michael Anderson: Absolutely. My pleasure, Julia. Thank you so very much. We'll have to do this again. We'll talk about mental fitness and relationships and how we change and heal our brains and heal our souls. That'll be a lot of fun.
Julia LeFevre: That would be awesome. Okay. Well, until next time, thanks everyone for joining us. We'll see you later.
Michael Anderson: Thanks.
Narrator: Thanks for listening to Wired to Lead. If this helped you lead with more clarity today, hit "Follow" in your app so you never miss an episode and leave a short review in Apple Podcasts. Two sentences is perfect and it helps leaders like you to find us. If you're a leader who would like to explore opportunities for workshops or coaching with Brave Restoration, please reach out to our website at www.braverestoration.org. We would love to hear from you. See you next time.
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WIRED TO LEAD - S2 EP 1 - MICHAEL ANDERSON.mp4
Julia LeFevre: Every leader carries strengths and every leader has gaps. This season of Wired to Lead is an exploration of what happens when we stop hiding our leadership deficits and start learning from them. We're going to talk honestly about where we have fallen short, what those moments revealed about us, and the growth that followed when we were willing to do the work. You're going to hear conversations with leaders who have faced their own limits and allowed that awareness to shape them not into perfect leaders, but into more grounded, present, and trustworthy ones. Because when leaders grow from the inside out, they are so much better equipped to serve others. Are you ready? Welcome to season two of Wired to Lead. Today's guest is Michael Anderson. Michael is a leadership coach who brings just as much rhythm as insight into the room. When he's not helping leaders communicate with clarity and courage, he is playing drums in a band or recovering from the time he crashed his motorcycle on a road trip to Florida. So, Michael blends lived experience, curiosity, and deep care for people, which makes conversations with him both grounded and surprisingly fun. So, welcome to Wired to Lead, Michael. I am so excited to have you here.
Michael Anderson: Thank you, Julia. It is very exciting to be here. I am so grateful and excited to be with you this afternoon.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. So, as I was thinking about our conversation today, I was thinking about that time when you reached out and said, "Yeah, I just wrecked my motorcycle and all of these things happened." Um, just curious, what leadership lessons did you learn from crashing and burning?
Michael Anderson: Wow. I think what I was able to appreciate is that in the moment, yes, I was very upset, not in the least bit happy about what was happening. However, what I liked was my response—it was one of, "Okay, this happened. I can't change it. I just have to move forward". And even my wife commented afterwards, after my first surgery, you know, she said, "You know, you're different now. The last time you had surgery, you were surly. You were grumpy. You were impatient. You were not fun to be around. This time though, you're much more thoughtful. You're grateful. You're even humble. And you care about how this is affecting me, not just how it's affecting you. And honestly, I'm happy to take care of you. I'm glad I get to help you recover". And I was in pretty rough shape at the time. And so, just being able to see and celebrate growth was, I think, a real victory in all of that.
Julia LeFevre: Man, that's such a good illustration of what we're really kind of trying to focus on this season at Wired to Lead—that a lot of times our growth happens through our failures, or it's our failures that kind of hold up that mirror to us and help us to recognize how we have grown.
Michael Anderson: Yes. If there's anything else in that adventure, it would be "trust your gut" because my gut was telling me, "Yeah, probably not a good idea." And I did it anyway. I thought, "Ah, it's going to be okay," and then I ended up getting rear-ended by somebody and, as they say, that's all she wrote.
Julia LeFevre: That's all she wrote. Well, thankfully, it's not all she wrote because there is life after the story. But there is... you know, your leadership growth journey and mine intersected a few years ago. And like the introduction said, what we're really wanting to do is to just be really open and honest. This isn't a show where we're going to come and brag about all the great things we've done; we're here to humanize leadership and to really show our audience that growth happens when we get honest and vulnerable. And so, I've talked about a little bit of my journey in the past, but we'll definitely revisit some. Back when I was experiencing pretty profound anxiety, that led me to join a process group, and that's where I met you. And so, I'm just curious, what led you to be a part of a process group in the first place? What leadership gaps were you working on at the time?
Michael Anderson: If I go through the whole list, we'll be here all day. But I do want to double-click on something you said just a moment ago about humanizing leadership. I actually refer to the leadership development that I do—a leadership framework—as "humanizing leadership". What I'm trying to do—and what drove me into this, why I decided to do yet another process group... by the time I got to the group we were in, I think that was my sixth year of being in and out of groups. And it's to what you were just talking about at the beginning of the show: we've got gaps. Geez, I sound like Rocky, don't I? You got gaps, I've got gaps. So, we have these gaps; we don't have it all together. And in fact, I'm getting ready to do a session here with a group in a few days, and I like using the Peter Drucker quote that says, "Anybody who thinks that well-rounded people are people who have all strengths and no weaknesses, well, that's a recipe for disaster". And to be able to acknowledge and be comfortable with our gaps, ironically, is how we overcome our gaps. They still exist, but they don't take us out at the knees.
Julia LeFevre: You know, I think that's where so many leaders get stuck: there's this sense that the higher the leadership ladder you climb, the more perfect you have to become, and there's less grace and less flexibility for any sort of imperfection.
Michael Anderson: That is so true. I was talking earlier today with someone that I'm doing some work with, and we were talking about leadership and when we fall victim to these leadership archetypes that we think we need to aspire to—the leader who can, like we said, do it all—we end up dehumanizing ourselves. We don't allow ourselves to be human. And so as leaders, I think it's imperative that we embrace what we do well and do that, and don't try to do the things—and they may be leadership things—that we don't do because we're not designed, as it were, to do those. You know, we put this unnecessary burden on ourselves to be something that, quite frankly, we're not.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. And that was a big part of my story: I grew up firstborn in my family, a daughter, a perfectionist, a high achiever—all of those things. And continuing to aim for those levels of performance led me to pretty profound anxiety. And my body eventually said, "Nope, we're done. We can't do this anymore". And I remember a huge part of my process of being able to let go of that sense of perfection was getting more comfortable with my imperfections, with my gaps. And it was so interesting that that was also right in the time where... my name is Julia, but for so many years people called me Julie. I had often wanted to change it, and I could not get people to change it. But you kind of punctuated my name, and it was almost this symbolic process of saying, "I want to see you as you—good, bad, ugly, or whatever". So just interesting.
Michael Anderson: Yeah. I was going to say it when you got started there: one of my first memories and realizations—because I met you as Julie—and for a few months you were Julie, and then at some point you mentioned, "Actually, my name's Julia". I think in so many ways what you went through and how our relationship evolved really is about humanizing; to lose your name is so dehumanizing. And I just wanted to be a champion for you. So when I found out that your name was Julia, like, "Julia!" Let's really put an exclamation point on that and celebrate who you are.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. And I think that's one of your greatest gifts. And I remember one time, I was really struggling and our group had homework partners. I don't remember if that's how we were originally paired up or if I was just like, "Michael will be okay, he'll have something for me". And I still remember the parking lot I was sitting in in our little town. And you said something so profound, and it has stuck with me to this very day. And so I'm expressing my angst about my current situation and my own leadership gaps and trying to grow in those, and you told me, you were like, "You know, Julia, all communication is a negotiation for identity". Did I get it right?
Michael Anderson: Yes. Yeah.
Julia LeFevre: So just on the name thing, tell our audience what were you talking about and how have you seen that to be true?
Michael Anderson: Well, thanks. It really feels good to hear you say that, so thank you for telling me that story and reminding me of how that landed with you. You know, this is one of the most fascinating things personally that I found when I was working on my Master's degree in Communication and Leadership. I did my thesis work on identity and essentially every act of communication, every dialogue, is at some level about our identity—it's the meta up here in the clouds what the communication is about. And so when I was talking with you, I wanted to affirm in you that the miscommunications that you're experiencing and some of the stress and strain that you were experiencing at work was part of this wrestling with your identity and the other person that you're in dialogue with wrestling with their identity and the identity that they're trying to put on you, right? And I'm saying you don't have to take that on, and kind of pull back the curtain on conversation and on dialogue.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. It was so eye-opening because I realized the problem is rarely the problem. The argument or the stress that we're dealing with in the moment is rarely about the topic that is being discussed. It is so much more likely that it... and here's the my tree for listeners who don't see this: I have my tree logo in the back and there's all this complex root system at the bottom. Really, the root issues of most struggles in a leader's life trace back to: Does that leader know who they are? Does that leader know what they are created to do and be, and does that leader have the confidence to live that out? And at the time, that was my gap: I didn't know who I was; I had not defined that. My capacity for definition of who I was was very weak. And so, yeah, it was just something that was so helpful to start me defining who I am.
Michael Anderson: If I may, what your experience, however, for years was people ascribing to you an identity that was untrue because, in reality, they were weak and they could not handle your strength. And they kept... well, they kept putting you in a box, didn't they? And they kept saying, "No, you need to stand down. You need to be less than what you are". And I just love telling people, "Be more of who you are," especially gifted women leaders such as yourself. And I continue to say this to people as I'm teaching and talking through different strengths and gifts: "Look, there's this woman I know who is an amazing leader who was being shut down". And I remember telling her, "You have all the makings of a great leader and I would be happy to serve under you and follow your leadership," and even what you've done in the past couple years. Well, I'm not surprised, you know, so good for you.
Julia LeFevre: You point a finger to something that's so important, and that is that so often our identity is shaped by our past experiences with how people have treated us. And that's really tricky because it's our identity, and yet I had let my experiences shape me. And what the turning point was for me was understanding I can change my experiences because now I have agency to choose, right? Who am I going to be around? What experiences are okay with me? And I think I need people who are going to recognize my strength and cheer them on. Instead of the opposite. And you were one of those first people, and it really was transformational.
Michael Anderson: Nice. I like that for you, and I like it for me. It's nice to be able to help people, you know. I think you're so right. I like to say that there's no "me" without a "we". Our identity has to be formed in community. Um, and we could get into the theology of all that if you want to, but I don't think we want to; I'm just going to leave it at that. There's no "me" without a "we." And so, absolutely, what you're saying is true: our identity is in many ways shaped by our past. And so, we look at finding out... there's that element of self-awareness. Then there's that element of science, if you will, that tells us about who we are through different assessments and that sort of thing. But then the relational aspect: what are people saying to us and about us? So you have what I would say is mass communication, interpersonal communication, and intrapersonal communication—the dialogue that I have with myself.
Julia LeFevre: Man, as I'm listening to you say all those things, I'm thinking there may be some people out there who kind of bristle at the idea of our own identity being formed by the "we," not just "me". Especially in our individualistic society. And yet, what all the brain science is telling us—yeah, even season two, I'm going to bring out my brain, I have my cross-section—that this part of your brain, your amygdala that houses your emotional memories, what it has felt like to be you, that is where the identity creation is as far as how we live it out. The great news is that this can be changed, but it doesn't change from a single decision from a single person. Your brain, especially this part of your brain, needs somebody else. So for me, it was Michael to come in and assure me: "You do have strengths and you have weaknesses, and that's okay".
Michael Anderson: Yep. That is... it's very okay.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. So that circles us back to this idea of: Do leaders have to be perfect?
Michael Anderson: No. Who wants to be around somebody who's perfect? If you're perfect, there's no space for me. Where do I get to contribute? What do I get to do? I think ultimately being around someone who has no weaknesses, it leaves a gap.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. So throughout the process of the process group and even since then—because it's been a few years—the motorcycle accident showed you some growth. Tell us a little bit more about that. What was the root issue in the difference between you being angsty and, in your words, "maybe a little more of a jerk," and then the more recent example where you just kind of plugged in and took it?
Michael Anderson: You know, it's becoming more comfortable in your own skin. Honestly, and this sounds like a recipe for narcissism, but it's not: really starting to love yourself. And that's one of the things I love to do: to help people fall in love with themselves. And for you, Julia, it was heartbreaking for me as how "hang dog" you were and how you thought you were such a problem. And when as an outsider looking in, I can go, "No, wait a minute. Yeah, you can be problematic. Sure, we all can. But you've got some horsepower that is really being choked and that needs to stop". It's just not honoring; it's dehumanizing. And so it was with the motorcycle accident: I was able to get on top of my circumstances, right? And what I mean by that is not become bitter. I wasn't happy that it happened, but I didn't become bitter. I was able to accept the circumstances and look for opportunities, look for gifts, if you will, even in some really unpleasant circumstances.
Here's an example: the motorcycle that I was riding—if somebody out there is a gearhead—it was a BMW R1200 RT, a sport touring bike. It's beautiful. I'd had it for less than a year. I'd been riding for maybe 20 years. My favorite bike. And even though it was my favorite bike, I was still thinking about maybe selling it because I wasn't riding a lot and it's expensive, it takes up room in the garage, blah blah blah. Well, before I even hit the ground after I got rear-ended, I knew that I was done. My answer was provided; the bike was destroyed. And I didn't have the energy or the inclination to go hunting around for another motorcycle and all that goes into replacing all the gear and everything else. And so it really simplified things in a lot of ways. And as a result, that means I get to spend more time taking trips with my wife instead of taking trips by myself on my motorcycle or with a friend on a motorcycle. And I've done a lot of work, Julia, with our group, but then also with myself, with mental fitness and tuning up my brain and making it stronger, so that we don't get into those amygdala hijacks so quickly or we can get out of them quicker than we had before. And so those are the gifts. And as I was sliding down the road, honestly thinking about what the CAT scans and X-rays are going to show, I was also thinking, "This is an opportunity for me to grow". It's not the one I would have chosen—it's not fun—but it's still an opportunity to grow. And that is what I am going to choose to do in this circumstance.
Julia LeFevre: So really, sliding down the road, you're thinking there is almost this sense of resignation—or maybe resignation isn't the right word, maybe it's surrender—to, "Okay, there's going to be some stuff that I'm going to have to face. I can't change my circumstances as much as I'd like to, so how am I going to make friends with my circumstances, basically"?
Michael Anderson: Better word.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah, man. I just think that's something that so many of us, leader or not, how many of us let our circumstances have total control over our inner sense of peace and well-being, our inner sense of identity—who we are? And it's something that kind of circles us back to the idea of definition—of defining who are you regardless of if you can get out and go for a run or go and... fill in the blank. Are you still the same person with the same values, with the same list of things to do, purpose?
Michael Anderson: Right. Right. You bring up such an important distinction there. The things that we can do, as it were—the different jobs we have—I really see those as roles. And as our identity matures and we are able to root it in things that are more essential, less fleeting than "I'm a motorcyclist" or "I'm not a motorcyclist". A lot of athletes struggle with this because as they move out of competitive athletics, it becomes a real identity puzzle for them. But when we get down to: What are your values, Julia? What are the things that you value in life? That's more essential and that describes who you are. And as you know, I really am a huge fan of the CliftonStrengths assessment. What are you designed to do? Do that. Don't try to do stuff that you're not designed to do; it's not going to go well.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. Well, and I can speak directly to that because I will never forget another time when I told you, "I hate CliftonStrengths," and you looked horrified. And I said, "Yeah, because I have strengths that are terrible". And we ended up walking through them. And at the end of that, after I had told you my strengths—which are Competition, Achiever, Learner, Intellection, and Significance—so kind of, if I remember right, a weird combination or unusual, I don't know.
Michael Anderson: Well, Significance is one of the rarest talents, so that right there puts you in a very unique category. And then with Competition up at the top, and Achiever, I mean you are a powerhouse. I look at that, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing what you are able to do." We're talking moving mountains. I mean, look at you: you've got your own podcast. I told you: "Start your own business". You've flown past me in business. It's exciting and frustrating to see.
Julia LeFevre: It's like, "Wait a minute!" Yeah, but my experience with those strengths had been negative because people didn't receive me with those, right? And so they hurt me and I was really frustrated. And what amazed me—and so here's my plug for Michael's coaching business—is that he started telling me things, and by the way, this was only after we had known each other for maybe four or five months, so not very long. And he started telling me things about my life that nobody had said before or recognized. And I thought, "How on earth do you know this?" Things like, "I imagine you have often risen to leadership roles and then you feel misunderstood a lot". And I'm just... by the time I was done I was just weeping almost, thinking, "He sees me. How does he see me"? And I think it's because of the training and just the insight that you bring to it—and maybe this is the core clarity that comes in with strengths, and you can say more about that—but it was the first time where I started to see and it started to reinforce that who I was was not bad, was something that was okay and actually good and could contribute to our world. So, thank you.
Michael Anderson: Thank you. Yeah. Wow. That just gives me chills. And you know, it's why I love doing what I do, especially... I don't know why, especially helping women in leadership. I can remember before you talk, I was doing a seminar for women leaders and at the end this one woman got up and said, "I finally like myself". And I was getting teary listening to her, honestly: "I finally like who I am and I see that the strengths that I bring to the table—yeah, I can use them more effectively, but there's nothing wrong with me". And that is what was so frustrating to me about your situation: that your design—and I'll go out on a limb, let's say, and say your God-given design—was not being honored, which is insulting and dehumanizing to you. But it really isn't the best stand to take when we're basically saying to God, "Hey, what happened on Julia day? Weren't you paying attention? This isn't what we need here". You know, I'm going, "No, wait a minute, this is exactly what you need". And that's how we got into that communications about identity. And I'm going, "No, this isn't about you, Julia. This is about your leader and his issues. Let's talk about how awesome you are".
The CoreClarity angle is... I like to refer to CoreClarity as CliftonStrengths on steroids. So, if any of you guys out there listening are CliftonStrengths fans, let's talk, because when you look at how the talents are working together and what's really going on inside your core, holy smokes, it is a game changer. And it gives you permission to be great at some things and not so great at other things.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah. And I think too—and one thing I want to clarify: you've painted me as just this great whatever—but sometimes those strengths, when they are overblown, can contribute to the dysfunction and damage of an organization. And so, that's part of the clarity that came: being able to see where to step in and use those strengths and when to let others. And I think I had come from an all-or-nothing perspective where I felt like I needed to do everything. So, guess what? People's toes got stepped on. I was pushing into places that may or may not have been open to me. So there were some legitimate things, but it was so clarifying, it was so direction-setting—like, hey, validate—it was validating to who I was. And then it set me on a trajectory to, like you said, "Go start your own thing. Go, and go as fast as you can because that's what you're good at". And I wouldn't be here today if I had not had some of that coaching.
Michael Anderson: Wow. Well, that's good to hear, thank you. I think what you and so many women face are cultural headwinds, right? I look at this list that you've got here: Competition, Achiever, Learner, Intellection, Significance. Those are not necessarily honored in women, right? You win; people in Competition are just natural winners, they are competitors, there's a lot of energy there. And that's okay, right? And then, but you get stuff done. Achiever, Learner, Intellection—you're wicked smart. Let's not pull any punches here. And then Significance: you want to do great things, and that's fantastic. Now, some guy shows up with that, it's great: "Yes, go discover a new continent or something". But if it's a woman, it's like, "Uh, you know, we don't really need that. You need to dial it back a little bit there, sweetie," sort of thing. And I'm going, "No, not at all. That is not what this is about". And guys will face it if they have talents like Empathy, Communication, Connectedness, Harmony—some of those softer things. So we have these cultural headwinds, you know, and I really want to make it very clear that I'm not subscribing to the gender stereotypes at all; I'm just looking at: what are the talents? Let's just do it. And then when you add another cultural context—you working in the church environment—holy smokes, you guys are swimming upstream in most cases when it comes to women in leadership. In fact, I'm speaking in and playing in the worship band at a conference in Thailand next week. And I noticed that all four people leading it are women. And I made a point to say, "Looks like this entire conference is being led by women. I think that's fantastic". I love that for you guys, and that you've been given that freedom and that authority.
Julia LeFevre: Yeah, I am excited to hear that too. Yay, go Thailand! So, tell us a little bit about... so you mentioned going to Thailand. I know that you just got back from Kenya. And so you're doing a lot of work overseas, too. Tell us a little bit about what is happening across the world in the world of Michael Anderson coaching.
Michael Anderson: Well, they dig me there, which is nice. You know, it is nice. I can't really get an audience here, I don't know. No, I just... the Kenya thing started because I was coaching a woman. I coached her through her top five CliftonStrengths and she said to me, "You are the first coach who has ever told me what's inside of me and how I can apply that in leadership and how that would make me a good leader". And it just so happened, you know, in Nairobi she works with a lot of women in leadership, and she said, "I want the women I work with to experience from you what I did". And so we started that dialogue almost two years before that trip ended up taking place. And I had so much fun over there talking about this concept that I call "Neuro-Leadership," where we look at how the brain is shaped by relationship, by interaction, by circumstances even. I was there for a week; I was their only teacher for a week, and the people who put it together couldn't believe it that the 30-some students stayed through the entire thing. They're all professionals—scientists, researchers—and they were like, "No one... everybody begs off and ditches this after one or two days". But I actually had people who had to leave to do a project say, "Can I come back to this training?" That felt great. And then they said, "We've been through a lot of leadership training. You were the first person to tell us these things about neurology and how our brain shapes leadership and trust".
And we did a lot of CoreClarity/CliftonStrengths work as well. We talked about what I call "Human Power Skills," because now that we can measure the brain and we can see what's happening in the brain in real time, heretofore "soft skills" such as Empathy—we can now see how it's affecting people and measure it. So I like to refer to those as Human Power Skills. And I'll be doing a similar thing in Thailand and talking with people in Singapore. I used to live in Singapore and so I'm going over there and saying, "Hey, I'm getting involved in some really cool leadership stuff". And the folks in Kenya were saying, "This is next-gen leadership. This is the future of leadership, not the stuff about strategic planning and organization and all that other stuff that we've heard, but this is scientific, neurological leadership and it's going to make a difference". So, like, "How soon can you get back here?" So we're working on that.
Julia LeFevre: That's great. Well, I agree with you that I do think this is next-gen leadership, and I'm so grateful for it. Because in an age where technology is really hyping up and it's just growing exponentially, we have to figure out how to maintain the human side of leadership. And so I love what you're doing and, yeah, excited about that.
Michael Anderson: Well, you're right. And interestingly enough, you are scientifically, verifiably right. It was, what, 20 years ago, I think, when the expression "culture eats strategy for breakfast" was coined. And research was showing that technological advances 20 years ago would make a difference for about nine months, and then everybody else caught up. And as things continue to advance, it's like watching a lightning strike. AI happens and then boom, everybody's using it. And this is one of the points I was making working with these organizations: your competitors are going to catch up to you in days. What was going to make a difference is your culture. How well your people are performing is a direct relationship with your culture. How safe, how seen, how heard, how engaged really are they? That's the difference-maker right there.
Julia LeFevre: I so agree. And just to circle all the way back to where we started, it's why it's so important for the leader—the senior leader—to own their gaps, to start growing their gaps, so that they can help their teams to do the same thing. Because culture is impacted the most by the senior leader. And so I love that you're out there to help people. If there's a senior leader out there who... they kind of know their strengths, maybe like me, but they don't really know how it can really change their leadership, or they don't even know... how could they get a hold of you?
Michael Anderson: Oh, thanks. Thank you, Julia. Go to my website, andersonlr.com. It's Anderson Leadership Resources, but andersonlr.com. There's a button on the homepage that says "Let's Connect". Click that, and free 30-minute coaching call. Let's talk about what's going on, what you'd like to figure out.
Julia LeFevre: Awesome. Well, I mean, I hope our listeners heard already from me, but I couldn't recommend Michael more. He has just a unique insight into how we are all made up and what our strengths are, what our weaknesses are, but how to grow those. And so, highly encourage you to reach out to him. And Michael, thank you for being with me on this episode of Wired to Lead.
Michael Anderson: Absolutely. My pleasure, Julia. Thank you so very much. We'll have to do this again. We'll talk about mental fitness and relationships and how we change and heal our brains and heal our souls. That'll be a lot of fun.
Julia LeFevre: That would be awesome. Okay. Well, until next time, thanks everyone for joining us. We'll see you later.
Michael Anderson: Thanks.
Narrator: Thanks for listening to Wired to Lead. If this helped you lead with more clarity today, hit "Follow" in your app so you never miss an episode and leave a short review in Apple Podcasts. Two sentences is perfect and it helps leaders like you to find us. If you're a leader who would like to explore opportunities for workshops or coaching with Brave Restoration, please reach out to our website at www.braverestoration.org. We would love to hear from you. See you next time.
Sources:
WIRED TO LEAD - S2 EP 1 - MICHAEL ANDERSON.mp4
