S4E182 | Why Ecological Humanities is the Answer | Jared Rock

the ykm: science and math in particular can be quite alienating to students. And so I think ecological humanities is a great way to actually make it make sense. Students want to be part of their societies. They want to contribute. They want to question. Just like we can think of our ⁓ planet as a larger us, I do think that there is a larger us that extends ⁓ beyond the planet and a larger story of who we are. And so in that sense, I would say we're not really alone. We're part of from our perspective can keep filling out the universe with who we are and what it means to be a part of the universe and what it means to be the universe itself. What if you turn hardship into greatness? Anger into serenity? Everything changes. Make your life a masterpiece. Welcome, I'm Janek, your host and now joining me, Charot Rock. Charot Rock is a literary teacher in Spain and joins me now to really discuss ecological humanities. What it is, why it is, especially in great need now and how to actually teach ecological humanities. Welcome to the show, Charot, to really discuss your outstanding work. Jared, welcome. So just introduce yourself in simply one powerful sentence. Hey, I'm Jared Rock and I'm a traveler of the radical road to the good life. That's amazing. I love this introduction. And you know, to really set it up a little bit. So tell us a little bit about your growing up, really the context and what ultimately made you become a teacher. So I grew up in northern New England in New Hampshire. And when I was in high school, you know, I really started getting into literature. I'd always liked reading, but developed more of a focus, serious focus in literature. And in 10th grade, we read The Transcendentalists, which is kind of a staple of American education. And... This ties a little bit into the later ecological humanists, but it was reading Thoreau and then Emerson and actually having the opportunity to just sort of walk out my back door and into a large forest and put some of this into personal practice like Emerson's transparent eyeball sitting there and becoming part of the environment letting it envelop me. ⁓ Academically, ⁓ beyond that also, I took ⁓ an interest in other literature, ⁓ classics, ⁓ modern literature and such. So I knew that I wanted to continue studying that at university level. ⁓ And when it comes both to ⁓ careers that come out of literature, some kind of teaching is essentially necessary. So ⁓ it's a matter of kind of choosing the level. ⁓ And there's also, I think, an importance in working with ⁓ high schoolers, with adolescents. I think it's the time that literature clicked for me. And so I think that's kind of what made me want to enter in at that level, be part of that discussion in that process, and pass that love on to people at an age where I know they're starting to make those connections. What are the connections that you made early on with literature in general? So tell us a little bit how you felt when you read all those great writers and thinkers. Yeah, there are a lot of different kinds of connections. I think that... that we make. there are connections that just span across time. I read Gilgamesh for the first time when I was in high school, the oldest ⁓ surviving narrative that we have. you know, when you can get into some of the themes, this ⁓ fear of mortality, ⁓ what is good power, abuse of power, ⁓ friendship and transformative love, and you can see a human connection and thread. that brings you into what would otherwise seem like such a foreign land and time. ⁓ I think, you know, that type of travel and human connection through literature is really special. And of course, reading more contemporary things, I think it opened up my eyes to just parts of the world that I otherwise wouldn't have had ⁓ contact with and I could better understand life situations and some of the larger systems, social systems that are at work. and the interplay there in ⁓ power, ⁓ oppression, ⁓ and the really ⁓ the dignity and shared goals that make all of us human and should be bringing us together. Are you afraid of death? Well, I would say, know, at some level, I think every living thing has an aversion to death. Of course, I think that from my very much alive and still middle aged perspective, I'm not that scared. But we'll see as time rolls on, I have a lot of time for that fear to build. What do you think is a healthy relationship to death and really the process of really dying? ⁓ I think some of this for me has an answer going into ⁓ the ecological perspective as well. And I think that looking at death as a type of transformation ⁓ and understanding that we are one stop along the way of many transformations, right? I mean, all of us come from some ⁓ energy that has been around since the beginning of time, since the Big Bang that has run through so many transformations. ⁓ And we're just one iteration of that one special combination. And there are many more to come. And if we can see that larger perspective, I think there is some wisdom and some consolation in that. And then, of course, there's still the ⁓ personal perspective. I try to stay at peace with my principles and values. And I really think it's when you compromise in those, in your relationships, and the things that you believe, ⁓ that you become more scared of your mortality because you feel like you've somehow... compromise life and have something to make up for it. those are the two routes that I would say to make a healthier relationship with death. That's so powerful and I love the fact that you mentioned transformation because that's what it truly is, right? Energy can't be created or can it be destroyed, but it is always and but it can be transformed. And I think you are such a great example of that. But just a little bit, dig a little bit deeper in terms of yourself because I love what you're saying in terms of values and principles. And just also for our listeners, I think it's always important to know that values and principles are really important and we should actually be very much aware of what they are. If you don't mind, could you mention some of your core principles? Because it really builds up in my view. on why you are so concerned and why you are thinking that ecological humanities is really important, especially today. Yeah. So, ⁓ some of my core principles, I'll go with maybe three that I think connect well with the ecological humanities. ⁓ One comes from the value of interdependence in the principle ⁓ that comes out of that is, you know, that we are ⁓ important agents. We have an impact on others around us and on the ⁓ web of life around us, on the relationships. ⁓ But we are also part of that web and of those relationships. We are not independent and don't stand alone. ⁓ And so bringing those two together, our personal actions. ⁓ and the various social and natural webs to which we belong, ⁓ I think is important. ⁓ Another principle ⁓ of mine is in ⁓ treating everything with its own inherent dignity. This kind of comes back to that interdependence, but when we look at the web, we have other people and our social webs ⁓ And I think what is maybe a little bit of a jump for some people, especially sometimes for high school students, is to move beyond the human world, right? That there are other systems, creatures, ⁓ non-animate living things, and even non-living things that have a special journey of their own and their own dignity. ⁓ And we should always approach our relationship and our interaction. with ⁓ some kind of acknowledgement or understanding of that. ⁓ And then the final principle that I will mention that I think is really the most important for me is that anything that we do, whether we're working for transformation, whether it's through cooperation and conflict, that we should be working through love ⁓ always. I think that love is ⁓ It's the greatest connector of all things. And if we don't see the world and others with love, it's really impossible, I think, to work for justice, ⁓ to work for ⁓ good transformation. And it's hard, I think, to really see reality. Love is also a key, I think, to being able to look at some of the gritty realities of our world, which is necessary if we really want to be serious in our time. I think this is really beautiful, I think that's so powerful and it's actually also one of mine, right? It's really love, like always do whatever you do with the intention of really being guided by love, whatever it is. Of course, it's really hard, it's really, really tough, right? But I think it's just so important that you have some core principles that you can look up to and say that, okay, I'm still working on it and I will work on it until I die, but at least... I have a compass, right? So that's really beautiful. So let's go and dive into it. Thank you so much for really sharing this because I think it's really helpful and it's beautiful because we need that, right? That's what we need. And of course, I think a lot of people have that, but oftentimes everyone because that's what really diversity is, right? Everyone lives it a little bit differently, right? And that's what you also see oftentimes. in politics, right? There are just different ways of seeing it. It's basically we don't necessarily disagree on the issue, but oftentimes we disagree on how we actually address it in a positive and conducive way. So beautiful. So let's walk us through. what is it? And give us some taste of what you already have done with your students and the impact it had. Well, teaching ecological humanities. So ⁓ I'll start off big picture with the ecological humanities and then ⁓ move it towards the class, right? So, and actually, why don't I start off big picture ⁓ with ⁓ the title of your podcast, I think actually kind of ties in well with this, know, Why Knowledge Matters. ⁓ Well, knowledge matters for us to be able to ⁓ take action on what we know, to be able to understand the systems that we're in and the abilities that we have and the options that are open to us. And ⁓ I think that we have enough knowledge now about the ecological crisis of our time. ⁓ We have enough knowledge about the damage of extractive systems, which our ⁓ economy runs on and which our social systems run on. Enough knowledge on climate crisis ⁓ and the human impact on it that we really have a responsibility now to be changing the way that we think and act. And the Ecological Humanities is rooted in making that change and helping high schoolers to make that change. ⁓ So the Ecological Humanities, I envision it, though it was taught as a class, I envision it as ⁓ trying to found kind of a new subject or a new field. A subject that I think would be beneficial for people everywhere, high schoolers in particular, because they're aged, but I think everyone, it's a conversation that we should be part of. And it comes out of, in my view, sort of a long line of the humanities, starting with Studia Humanitatis and the medieval university, which brought about this huge paradigm shift into our modern world. It brought us things like human rights and understanding of human flourishing, right, or communal flourishing. But it was kind of constrained by an anthropocentric view that was just inherent to the subject matter itself, right, human flourishing. And ecological humanities is an attempt to, at this time, with the knowledge that we have and how we know we need to go forward, take the next step, we know that We need a subject like the humanities that can bring about a paradigm shift but is not anthropocentric, that is eco-centric. ⁓ And that it should be, you know, quite radical, I think, in its implications just like the humanities was quite radical in its implications for the established institutions of its time because it gets you to rethink really what the values society are and how things should be run, how our systems should be set up. So that is the really big picture of ⁓ what we're trying to do with the ecological humanities. Now, I would say in a way that field already exists through writers like Emerson, John Muir, Aldo Leopold, Robin Wall Kimmerer. So it's just not named ⁓ and it's not studied as a subject per se. in schools and where those authors are studied it's usually under just literature or maybe like ecological studies. ⁓ So we took some of the established ⁓ field that you know or works that already out there and tried to create a program around that I can talk about the larger program later, the larger program didn't come into full fruition, so it'll bring us to the class, but a program that would progressively bring students through ⁓ stages of exposure to nature and rethinking their relationship. ⁓ Now, core to that was the pilot class, which we just called Ecological Humanities itself. ⁓ And ⁓ I launched that class with ⁓ Gavir, who was a science teacher. and another colleague, ⁓ Mike Schwerck, who's an art teacher. ⁓ so the three of us brought our, ⁓ disciplines and our ideas together, ⁓ to create a class that was really outside of any established discipline. We didn't want it to be a literature class or an art class or a science class. We wanted it to be its own thing. ⁓ that got students to go out into the natural world ⁓ and rethink some of the assumptions that they've gained just through their enculturation about what it means to be human versus natural, which there really is no divide there, but we tend to think that way because we have this kind of dichotomy between the social and the natural. And then to rethink some of the values that tend to prioritize our social systems and our economies over the natural system. But in order to do that, we really thought exposure to nature and being able to kind of think from a critical clean slate and rebuild ⁓ some values and narratives about what it means to be a natural citizen was necessary. So the class... was interdisciplinary ⁓ in bringing those three perspectives together. It was run as a class that was really based on ⁓ dialogue mostly ⁓ and place-based learning. So we would be outside most days ⁓ doing things. it could, I mean, we... ⁓ we're doing things in a ⁓ urban setting, but we're still looking at nature right in the urban setting, which I think is really valuable as well, just because we tend to think nature is so distant from us, especially if we are urban. ⁓ And we would give the students texts or questions based on or after they have some experience with nature that leads into discussions. Right? And it leads into discussions of, well, you know, like a starting question, ⁓ what is nature and what isn't nature? And then start pushing back on some assumptions through the dialogue. Right? So what students say, ⁓ then we, you know, have some ideas perhaps ⁓ as they bring up definitions of nature. Well, you know, if nature is something pristine, that's usually the first place they go outside of the city. ⁓ What about this fig tree right here on our campus? Isn't that a piece of nature, right? Bring it into the classroom. What about us, right? We're ⁓ mammals making noises, talking to each other, but are we not natural? Right? Aren't we part of the natural problem? And ⁓ so, We do a series of just natural nature-based experiences with follow-up discussions and kind of let the ⁓ discussions itself lead the students to questioning ⁓ received norms and coming up with new definitions of their own of what nature is and what our responsibility to nature is. It really sounds incredible and it also really it looks like it's incredible work. So how did this unfold? Because once you start collaborating also with other teachers it's one thing it's really cool it's very encouraging but it makes it even harder right more complex you know just the logistics just you know talking to each other and how you actually implement this. So how was it? Walk us through the biggest barriers that you really face but also in terms of how open, let's say, the administration was. How was it received in general? So ⁓ the barriers ⁓ and the collaborative element, ⁓ the collaboration with other teachers really didn't present much of a barrier. ⁓ And I think that the collaborative element may be more of a barrier. If you're trying to run a class that is primarily kind of academic knowledge, you're trying to break it down and make tests and people are kind of fighting over maybe academic territory. But since it was so much based ⁓ in experience and discussion, having ⁓ two co-teachers that bring in two other perspectives and we just think of ourselves as three other people along with the students who are part of a discussion. though we've maybe come up with the, you know, first question and discussion and we're responsible for asking other questions if the discussion is lowing, meant that the collaborative ⁓ part was, ⁓ it really, there was no difficulty there. ⁓ And it was ⁓ just, you know, so beneficial actually to have someone else who is an expert in ⁓ a different field kind of chiming in with some knowledge that I wouldn't have as a literature professor but is highly relevant to the topic that we're talking about. The reception of the program ⁓ in terms of the school community is, you know, the unfortunate thing is ⁓ since it is not tied to a regular subject, I think a lot of people see it as ⁓ not a serious class. And so you have to try to get past that view, that insistence that ⁓ a class needs to be sort of packaged within an academic field for it to be taken seriously. ⁓ So there was in the wider community, I think, some view that ecological humanities is ⁓ just a kind of a screw around hour, right? We're outside most of the time, we're having discussions, we're not ⁓ doing a lot of, we actually did do a few labs, but for the most part we're not doing labs or tests and so ⁓ some people think it's not as valuable. The administrative element is mixed because there are people in the administration who right away kind of oppose this because they think it's taking away a class hour ⁓ that other, that the students would otherwise be doing academic work, right? ⁓ But the president of the school really kind of supported this idea. So having that support was important to getting the program off the ground. administration ⁓ that came in, the campus director and some others, think were just kind of ⁓ maybe they didn't really see the value of this because they're focused more on ⁓ test-driven education. like the College Board Education or the IB because that's where their minds go. ⁓ And that's where they think education happens. It to come in some kind of corporate packaged curriculum that gets a standard score that gets sent off. And ⁓ we can talk about how that system itself is really problematic because it is just replicating an extractive system within our schools. And we want our schools to be spaces where students are asking questions, actually ⁓ feel a sense of agency to question the world around them ⁓ and change things. So, and I think that that liberatory component actually ⁓ scares maybe some ⁓ administrators. And honestly, I think it scares some students too. Our students were a bit ⁓ hesitant. ⁓ to really participate genuinely in discussions at first, because they're used to a system that you come in, learn some content and some skills, and you're expected to take those content and skills and just replicate them on an exam. And there's some kind of gold right answer that you're working towards all the time. Whereas our class really worked in openness, right? ⁓ We don't have an answer. We have the data and the problems of our times. We have a shared social system that we can critique and talk about. But there is not a correct answer that you can memorize or that you can work towards and be sure that you're, you know, walking away ⁓ having checked off the boxes for the class and you're going to get whatever score or result ⁓ that... and that lands in. Yeah, this is really fascinating. And so how did it evolve over time with your students? Yeah, so at first, the students who were in the class, think were quite happy to be in the class because of the outdoor component. And they got to go outside. mean, I think it was in like week two or three, we brought them out to build a fire. ⁓ And so, you know, these are kind of fun things to be able to do ⁓ at school compared to sitting in a classroom, right? ⁓ But like I said, there was some resistance to actually opening up, right? Because they're also, when you do start questioning ⁓ some of the dominant narratives about what nature is versus what society is, it can ⁓ call into question, think, some of your other values, some of your ⁓ concept of ⁓ self and what type of a person you are, the values of people that you respect. ⁓ And so there is a little bit of just sort of danger there, you know, from a self-perception. ⁓ standpoint. And it is kind of hard sometimes anyway to get students ⁓ feeling okay to be genuine with each other when it leads to perhaps a bit of vulnerability, right? But ⁓ after a few discussions, I think when they, after making a few connections about, hey, ⁓ We actually live inside of a natural world where natural beings, our ⁓ social system and the things that we kind of look at as like the concrete real are ⁓ imposed onto this larger natural order. I think that some of that change in perception ⁓ actually was kind of enlightening. the students and invigorating a little bit. ⁓ So that by the second of three terms, certainly I think all the students had quite you know bought into the class. ⁓ They were ⁓ discussing ideas from like you know Jean-Jacques Rousseau and forming their own opinions about ⁓ Rousseau's ⁓ ⁓ essay on inequality and what the natural state of man is and how we've gotten to where we are. And they're actually, it's not in an academic way, they're not, you know, arguing this in the abstract. They're thinking about, what is this from where I actually stand, right? As a person here, a teenager living in Madrid, ⁓ living in these times. ⁓ right now ⁓ with everything that is going on in the world, know, news-wise and then larger than news-wise in the ecological world. They're forming opinions about artists ⁓ who are working with land and natural elements and what their artwork means and what we should be doing, what kind of activism or art people should be involved in. And so ⁓ once that door is opened up, ⁓ Then I think you get ⁓ a very lively atmosphere. ⁓ And we took the students out early on in the year to the Greta's Mountain chain. We read John Muir with them ⁓ and talked about ⁓ Muir connecting glacial valleys with ⁓ some of his awe, you know, at those glacial valleys. and we brought them into an actual glacial valley so that they can connect what the terms and the science of this is to an actual glacial valley. And walking through that valley, hiking through it, and realizing that this glacial river had passed through and the size of it. ⁓ one of the students said, so underneath that, ⁓ in that valley bed, it would have just been cold darkness for so long. And it was, you saw the kids kind of standing up looking over the valley with that interpretation and you could see the kind of spiritual enlightenment that when you understand a place and a process, it really brings about awe and respect ⁓ for this natural system. And then knowing that you're a part of it, I think, ⁓ is really ⁓ not just empowering, but it gives you a sense of belonging, I think, beyond anything ⁓ that we could offer in just our social systems. I have no doubt. I think it's really beautiful, so important, because today, think, and we will touch on this a little bit later on, before we go back and actually also ask in terms of implementation, it's one thing of doing, taking an integrative approach. In other words, like you... whatever you teach, you do it and you kind of integrate what you basically propose in ecological humanities, but it's a whole other game to actually create a new subject, right? Because it's very political, right? But before we go to that, do you think we are alone in this universe? ⁓ Well, I mean, if I had to hedge my bets based on the size of the universe, I would say no. ⁓ I don't think so. ⁓ Also, I think that there is a way of, just like we can think of our ⁓ planet as a larger us, I do think that there is a larger us that extends ⁓ beyond the planet and a larger story of who we are. And so in that sense, ⁓ I would say we're not really alone. We're part of... from our perspective can keep filling out the universe with who we are and what it means to be a part of the universe and what it means to be the universe itself. think that's beautiful. I love that. It's just like I'm very curious and I follow it also what's happening in the US with releases and so many testimonials and the area of S4 and Bob Lazar. I didn't know if you actually watched the movie, but it was really fascinating. I think it's a very fascinating human being and there are so many things, there's so many testimonials, right, that we hear. So it's really hard to actually think that it doesn't exist. But I too, I don't really know. But I love what you just said. It's basically an extension of somehow of who we are just in a in another way, right, as we are just part of the universe. But there's something larger and a bigger story that tells us. But yeah, it's very. Are you interested in those kind of things? Because it's also something that really ties into what you're doing, right? Especially in your field, it has a lot to do with imagination. And I think that's why also the founding fathers of the US, they were so incredible what they actually saw and how they crafted the Constitution. And so what do you think about this? ⁓ So, yeah, I think the imaginative element of thinking You know, if there is life out there in the universe somewhere else, if the universe itself has consciousness, anything like this, I think is actually a great exercise. And it does come back ⁓ to an ecological perspective, right? ⁓ When we understand the world and interpret it through the way we see it, it's very easy to become egocentric. Right? And what we're trying to do, of course, is ⁓ put eco over the ego here. And an eco-centric view ⁓ should be able to take other perspectives into mind. think thinking of an alien perspective, for example, ⁓ is just kind of a wonderful thought experiment, especially since ⁓ in almost every type of fiction that has aliens, they are... ⁓ There are probably some exceptions to this, but they're mostly objects, right? They're mostly ⁓ enemies, dangers, ⁓ or they might be something to interact with in some science fiction worlds, but we know that the human is preferable. But to think that alien life ⁓ or even a different type of consciousness, if there is, you know, higher consciousness, that we have our own perspective, our own dreams, our own desires. ⁓ is great to think about and we can bring it right back to, ⁓ you know, right here on our planet. ⁓ Take a life form that we consider a lower life form like a rodent or a totally different life form like a plant, right? To try to understand that there is a dignity there and there is some kind of ⁓ consciousness, some dream desire, some agency ⁓ is important. What made you to go to Spain, for example, and work abroad? mean, you're from New England. I love it. I actually travel those to New England. It's beautiful place. So what made you decide to quit the US and go and work for some time? I don't know how long you have been living there now, but yeah. What was it? Yeah, I... ⁓ I love New England too. I go back every year. It's probably actually my favorite spot in the world still. But I've lived my entire adult life outside of the US. I did my internship to be a high school teacher at the American School of Quito in Ecuador. ⁓ And then got my first job there. Met my, well, my girlfriend who became my wife there. ⁓ And I worked there for four years. ⁓ Then I... moved to another American school in Beirut, which is one of the oldest ⁓ American schools still operating in the world today. ⁓ Another in ⁓ Seoul, Korea, ⁓ and then here to Spain. And I've kind of enjoyed this life of every four years moving from one country in culture context to another. ⁓ and doing my teaching that way. That's amazing. I mean, it blows me away. And I think that really made you who you are today. How did, how does, how did it change you as a person? Yeah. ⁓ well, I think when, when we're talking about, you know, questioning any kinds of norms or things that are just inherited that seem like they're natural or inevitable, but are not, it is. difficult to get out of those social and cultural norms if you don't go and live somewhere else. ⁓ So I, you know, if I had stayed in New England, ⁓ which is a wonderful place, and ⁓ I'm sure I would have had a great life there as well, but I probably would have had ⁓ less practice, I think, critiquing the United States and US culture and dominant narratives ⁓ than I have doing it from afar. And I also would have, I think, a much ⁓ more constricted view of the world. Reading is, of course, wonderful. And it connects us. But there is a difference still in actually ⁓ going and talking to living people ⁓ in the Andes, for example, and hiking those mountains and not just visiting, but living there, being part of the culture and doing that in different places. ⁓ It expands your view of what it means to be human, of what the possibilities are, and what our shared condition is. That's beautiful. And let's just go back in terms of implementation. Now, how do you envision ecological humanities as a subject in and of itself? Do you think there is any chance that it will be one day actually implemented or how can you find a way around with, for example, an integrated approach, which you to some extent did, right? You worked collaboratively with your other subject teachers, right? And you called potentially develop a program in which you teach, let's say, history or literature, but at the same time, you twist it in a way that you can indirectly or directly even, while respecting the content that you are obliged to teach to really incorporate ecological humanities in one way or another. Yeah. So I would say ⁓ ⁓ I do have a few articles that kind of set out my vision and I could share the link. don't know if you post links always with your podcast, right? I could share those, which would give a little view, but I am definitely a believer in ⁓ every ⁓ community and teacher doing what is right, you know, from in their context ⁓ for their community because it... what we're trying to get around ⁓ with ecological humanities. And really any good education is a one size fits all or prescriptions that have to go everywhere. So we did it with an integrated standalone approach. And there are benefits to that for sure. ⁓ But I think that the more important thing is the critical component to it where Teachers and students are questioning the assumptions about what our relationship to nature is, and they're bringing in the actual knowledge and data on the state of natural systems, how they work, right, what kind of impact we have, where that impact comes from, and ⁓ really analyzing that not just to understand it in the abstract. but to understand what our place is, how we need to act, and they're trying to ⁓ come together to consider, well, what norms actually should we have? What should our values be? What should our morals be given what we know now? ⁓ How should we change our institutions, right? If our institutions are ⁓ damaging our planet, then... What do we need to do? And asking those questions in a way that gives students ⁓ the freedom and the agency, I think, to actually really pursue them beyond just some narrow scope that is directly related to a test and is more open, ⁓ I think, is ⁓ sort of the key to ⁓ bringing this field to life. I do also think if it's not possible to have a standalone class where you're able to do that, ⁓ you could bring it into a subject class with that lens, right? If you're teaching history, ⁓ if you're teaching literature, ⁓ if you're teaching science, right? You could look at ⁓ how our current systems and narratives have come to be through the historical lens, what their implications have been over time, their impact has been over time, where we are now, ⁓ and where we are headed unless we change course, and then seriously think about, well, what needs to change for us to change course. And I think that's the important part to ⁓ give students a lot of freedom to think and go down dead ends and then come back and ⁓ discuss with each other. try to reimagine things together. If you're studying it through a scientific lens, I think oftentimes science classes, the way that they're taught ⁓ science and math in particular can be quite alienating to students. And so I think ecological humanities is a great way to actually make it make sense. Students want to be part of their societies. They want to contribute. They want to question. And if we say, hey, we are on the ⁓ cusp of real ecological and social collapse and disaster if something doesn't change. This necessitates change and we have enough knowledge to know that. Why don't we look at some of the science content but with its real applicable lens back to what does this mean then for the way that we're going to act? What does this mean for some of the values that we hold, right? Is it really okay to ⁓ continue down this kind of, you know, capitalist ⁓ path without putting some kinds of safeguards or restrictions on it? ⁓ Knowing where that's going to lead us. Is it really okay to continue ⁓ teaching in this way or look at any institution, right? ⁓ Knowing ⁓ what it is leading to. So that way you're at least giving students the the space to take whatever the content is and use it to imaginatively transform some institutions ⁓ with that larger, eco-centric perspective. What's the role of technology, particularly social media? Do you think it helps or it actually is to our disadvantage when it comes to the implementation of really ecological humanities. Yeah, this is, I mean, it's a mixed thing, of course. So, am of the mind, probably like most people, ⁓ our age that social media has ⁓ had a lot of negative impact ⁓ on our social well-being, our mental well-being. You know, I feel myself ⁓ and ⁓ I think you and I are we're part of that the last generation that actually ⁓ had some experience pre smartphone and social media so we do ⁓ kind of know what both worlds are like there is of course of the the positive component to it as well which is that it does ⁓ it can amplify some messages and I think that a lot of ⁓ current social movements and criticisms and such are ⁓ actually kind of coming to light because of social media. ⁓ And yet it still is a harmful thing. So it's a double edged sword. ⁓ But I think it, on the positive side at least, ⁓ it has the ⁓ potential to take some of this knowledge ⁓ and just kind of bring it into common knowledge with the impetus of, so we need to act, right? We need to change. ⁓ It can get that message out and connect people. How do you use technology in your classroom? Do you use it in one way or another? What's your relationship to tech? Do you think it's helpful in order to enhance learning or do you think are you rather more on the negative side? It's like we got to probably go back to the very basics. What's your view? Yeah, I'm a back to the basics guy. I keep tech kind of out of the classroom entirely. So I even ⁓ back... ⁓ I don't know five years ago or so I was, I thought Google Classroom ⁓ is great because I don't need to print so much paper. I upload it there and students read it. But I've just noticed reading off of a screen ⁓ is problematic even when students are not distracted by something else on the screen. It just wasn't working as well. So I've gone back really to ⁓ just, you know, physical books for literature, but even for for handouts for smaller things, printing them out, having students annotate by hand, and keeping it paper and face to face discussion. I think it's important for social skills, but also that cognitive development. ⁓ I don't know enough about the science to know why, but experientially, it works better for me as a teacher. And I think I see it working better for the students. Yeah, it's so good actually to hear that because I was also I was on the fence. I was always like, well, you got to find a way out. are positive and negatives. But when I was, you know, in Costa Rica teaching, you know, I went back all pen and paper and it just makes such a difference, even though they initially they hate it. But in the long run, it will greatly benefit them. And I think the science is very clear actually on that too, that, you know, if you the more senses you you activate well learning, the more likely you actually you're able to retain the information. You know, it's really basic and oftentimes it's kind of these cycles, right? Everything is basically in cycles, right? And we are just, we are always trying to reinvent the wheel, right? But look, our brain, our physiology hasn't really evolved the past 200,000 years, so... I think it's really important and I'm so glad that you too, because I really see it as a social responsibility because I always think about, look, at some point these students that I teach, when they look back 10, 20 years ago, they can come back to me and tell me what I have actually done to them. Because now more and more we have research, empirical actually research that shows since the introduction of technology in the classrooms, the cognitive faculty went down. it's now demonstrated actually to scientific literature, you know. Of course, it's always hard to say casual relationship, of course, but overall, I think it's really important that we also keep this in mind, just from an ethical point of view. Yeah, yeah, and I think, yeah, it's... When screens come out, ⁓ and I've done this with classes that are, let's say, on task, motivated and classes that are not. So I know the problem that comes up with doing something you're not supposed to with a device, which I'm not even talking about, but classes that are focused. ⁓ There is something about ⁓ looking at something on the screen while you're supposed to be engaging with someone else that even breaks the attention. And the social relationship, right? And, you know, I mean, for that alone, but like you're saying also, you know, what sticks in their memory? It's, ⁓ there's something, it seems like there's, it's just a distraction and it's going to pull away from the memory of what you actually did, whereas ⁓ a good discussion, a, you in-person activity, beautiful Jared what makes you truly feel alive ⁓ Truly feeling alive, you know, it's I think There are two ways to do this ⁓ I'm gonna go with ⁓ being with ⁓ people that I love the most You know being close with ⁓ my wife with my nephews ⁓ family good friends ⁓ there's just a feeling of being in the moment, being in a relationship that matters, ⁓ doing the thing that gives life the actual ⁓ quality that really matters, that makes it worthwhile. And really, that's what it is. We've to go back to the basics, because what you really described is what Arthur Brooks also really says, is that... A measurement of happiness is actually if you get over time happier with less, right? And I think that's what you really demonstrate. That's beautiful. Jared Rock. So I really invite everyone really to read your articles. We will post it below in the description. So it has been a true delight and I'm sure we will continue this conversation because there's so much in terms of AI and so on and so forth. It really touches on what you are doing and in general even as a teacher. I thank you so much. Yeah, well, thank you. It was great talking. Charit Rock. That's why knowledge matters. Make your life a masterpiece! Visit now programs.d-ykm.com ⁓