WEBVTT
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:06.240
Hi, I'm Britt Gervin, host of What the Morgs podcast, and I am so happy that you're here.
00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:12.240
This podcast is dedicated to raising awareness for both Lyme and Morgellan's disease.
00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:20.239
I promise to give you authentic conversation, lived experiences, and expert interviews with people in the medical community.
00:00:20.399 --> 00:00:22.559
I'm so grateful that you're here.
00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:24.559
Thank you so much for tuning in.
00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:27.760
Out of nowhere, I just started developing full body lesions.
00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:30.160
I noticed there was like weird filaments.
00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:33.200
They were colorful, they were red, they were white, they were black.
00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:35.840
It felt like glass shards under my skin.
00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:36.960
And it was full body.
00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:39.439
I had, you know, pretty great skin up until that point.
00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:42.560
So I went to a dermatologist for the first time in my life.
00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:45.359
I went to many primary care doctors.
00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:48.240
Uh, even that thing went to an infectious disease doctor at one point.
00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:52.320
And every single one of them, it was the same story where this was all a delusion.
00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:56.560
I needed to see a psychiatrist and that I was ruining my skin by picking at it.
00:00:56.799 --> 00:01:00.240
There is a whole host of us that are out there just absolutely struggling.
00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:03.119
Is there anything that you'd want them to know?
00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:05.439
Certainly not losing hope, right?
00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:08.159
But that's that's easier said than done.
00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:12.560
I think I'd want them to know that everything that they're experiencing is valid.
00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:15.439
Their suffering is real and their symptoms are real.
00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:16.879
You can always get better.
00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:21.280
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the podcast What the Morgs.
00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:23.120
Today we'll be talking with Dr.
00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:38.480
Paula Mater, a doctor in naturopathic medicine, a doctor of acupuncture and oriental medicine, a member of the Environment and Health Committee, and the Environmental Medicine Education International.
00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:58.000
Her clinical focus is with Lyme disease, morgellins, and coinfection, mold illness, autoimmune disorders, with a specialty in women's health and reproductive health, including endocrine health and how chronic illnesses affect women's health.
00:01:58.239 --> 00:01:58.560
Dr.
00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:06.400
Mader believes that the true health is multifaceted, meaning the body, mind, and spirit all work together in harmony.
00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:12.479
She likes to address the nervous system, immune system, and the environment.
00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:13.199
Dr.
00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:19.439
Mader uh completed her residency in complex chronic illnesses under the mentorship of Dr.
00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:20.879
Melanie Stein.
00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:22.000
Uh welcome, Dr.
00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:22.719
Mader.
00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:24.800
I'm so happy to have you today.
00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:26.240
Thank you for joining us.
00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:27.360
Hi, Britt.
00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:28.319
Thank you for having me.
00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:29.759
That was a great introduction.
00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:31.280
I'm so excited.
00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:32.159
Yes.
00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:33.599
Thank you for being here.
00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:51.120
So I wanted to start off today asking you a little bit about um if you could tell uh uh tell the folks uh a little bit about uh yourself, where you're from, your background, um, and maybe some of your uh areas of clinical focus.
00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:52.639
Of course.
00:02:52.960 --> 00:03:02.560
I am originally from the Greater Detroit area in Michigan, where I um studied at a university called Oakland University.
00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:15.199
It was actually one of the only universities at the time, back in the early 2000 10 era, where we had a concentration that you could um study alternative and complimentary medicine.
00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:19.840
So it was one of the few universities that actually had that as an undergrad undergrad concentration.
00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:26.560
So I always kind of knew from a young age I wanted to do medicine, but I wanted to do a different approach to it.
00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:30.080
And so that's where I found the naturopathic approach.
00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:42.080
And then I moved to Seattle, Washington, and I completed my um doctorate in naturopathic medicine, and I also got the licensed acupuncture and oriental medicine degrees.
00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:47.120
And then I moved to Portland, Oregon, where I currently reside, and that's where I'm working right now.
00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:48.719
Wonderful.
00:03:49.120 --> 00:04:02.240
Can you talk a little bit about um was there any particular reason that you chose a naturopathic route versus a um uh a more conventional route?
00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:03.599
Yes.
00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:16.000
It's funny because people, if you ask that question to a lot of other people who've gone into naturopathic medicine, I think a lot of them they have this illness that propels them onto this pathway in life.
00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:22.720
And although I definitely have a whole history of illnesses, um the reason I chose it was from a very young age.
00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:34.000
I noticed that within my own family, within my own community, particularly where I was raised, it just felt like there was such uh a discrepancy in how people got treated.
00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:40.079
So there was lack of care, lack of access to medicine, but then there was also this inability for people to actually get better.
00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:43.600
And I noticed that within my own family and my own friends at a really young age.
00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:50.720
And I just saw the um the inability for people to truly heal within our current paradigm of health.
00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:52.959
So I knew there had to be more to medicine.
00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:55.360
It couldn't just be what we always thought it were to be.
00:04:55.439 --> 00:05:01.040
And so yeah, I somehow found out, you know, there was Reiki and um herbs.
00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:05.600
And I think that's like the first introduction into what this alternative form of medicine could be.
00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:09.040
And that slowly evolved into being naturopathic medicine.
00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:14.879
And that's why I picked it is just because I knew that people needed more to health and wellness.
00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:22.959
And my own experiences even going to the doctors, I just felt like, you know, I wasn't necessarily even getting better, even if I wasn't having big concerns at that time.
00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:27.120
So that yeah, that propelled me to find this great degree.
00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:44.560
What presented itself to you to kind of dive in and to actually see us, to see us uh Morgellans folks, as you know, a real as a real illness were regularly dismissed um in the clinical community.
00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:46.959
And so why did you choose to see us?
00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:48.560
Yeah.
00:05:48.720 --> 00:06:02.000
Um well, I you know, this podcast is important, I feel like not only for listeners to be able to understand that people do suffer with this and that it's not just you know, something that's been created.
00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:03.920
It's not only a delusion.
00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:08.879
Um and I personally even had to experience that on my own.
00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:14.319
And I feel like this podcast is helpful in that way because I'm actually able to announce that in some ways.
00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:21.199
You know, I feel like I also have kept that to myself for many years because of the connotations and the misinformation out there.
00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:30.720
So, from I think I was probably um maybe 20, 22 years old, and just a myriad of events were happening in my life at the time.
00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:34.399
So I was already in undergrads, already on the path to become a naturopath.
00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:36.879
Um, pretty healthy at the time, honestly.
00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:40.800
And then out of nowhere, I just started developing full body lesions.
00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:44.319
Um, and I knew that there were just things coming out of it.
00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:46.800
I noticed there was like weird filaments.
00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:52.560
They were colorful, they were red, they were white, they were black, it felt like glass shards under my skin.
00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:53.680
And it was full body.
00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:56.240
I had, you know, pretty great skin up until that point.
00:06:56.480 --> 00:07:00.079
So I went to a dermatologist for the first time in my life.
00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:11.519
I went to many primary care doctors, different types of, I even I think went to an infectious disease doctor at one point, and every single one of them, it was the same story where this was all a delusion.
00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:16.480
I needed to see a psychiatrist, and that I was ruining my skin by picking at it.
00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:21.040
So that for me felt like there was there's something more out there.
00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:25.839
So that's when I think at the time my partner had Googled what could this possibly be.
00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:28.800
And he was like, hey, I think you have this thing called Morgellons.
00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:37.040
And so, yeah, the rest is kind of uh history where I started to dive into it and look into more information.
00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:41.120
I think at the time there wasn't, there truly wasn't that much that existed.
00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:41.839
I feel like so.
00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:46.399
That was about 2012, so a significant amount of time ago.
00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:48.480
And there wasn't a lot of information.
00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:53.839
There was things back then about potentially, you know, doing electromagnetic therapy in Mexico.
00:07:53.920 --> 00:08:01.279
And so there was definitely these one-off kind of obscure treatments, but at that time I was not knowledgeable and what to do about it.
00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:06.000
So yeah, had tons of lesions, um, non-healing.
00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:18.879
And even going to my first day of medical school at Basty University, I remember having lesions on my face and having problems, you know, throughout my body and feeling like I had to hide throughout that entire journey.
00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:34.159
Because even if you're in a program where it's alternative medicine and it seems to be more accepting, unfortunately, this disease in itself is still one that has a hard audience to capture of people to actually accept it, especially within the medical profession.
00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:37.919
So yeah, that kind of set me onto my own healing journey.
00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:39.600
And we can definitely dive into that.
00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:46.240
But throughout my own medical degree, you know, education program, I learned a lot how to heal myself.
00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:49.919
And then it came a point once I graduated, I was like, well, what am I gonna do now?
00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:51.840
Do I want to go into primary care?
00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:56.080
Do I want to take um a more specialty route and do complex chronic illness?
00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:57.519
And it was really hard for me.
00:08:57.600 --> 00:08:59.200
I think I sat there for a moment.
00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:01.840
I was just like, what do I want to do with my life?
00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:04.480
What is the specialty that I want to go into?
00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:06.799
Um, and yeah, it hit me pretty clearly.
00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:10.879
It's just like, you have more gallons, you've suffered with this thing for so many years.
00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:13.039
Why would you not go into this illness?
00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.240
Why would you not pursue people who have this and are struggling?
00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:24.639
And that's where I found a clinic in Oregon and I saw that they offered complex chronic illness and that they mentioned more gallons on their website.
00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:27.200
So I decided to do a residency with them.
00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:30.000
And now that's primarily what I treat.
00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:30.960
Awesome.
00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:32.399
Thank you for sharing.
00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:39.279
Yeah, I would imagine 2012 and you being in your early 20s, that was probably quite isolating.
00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:47.039
You know, I know that this disease is quite isolating for most of us for all the the reasons that you disclosed.
00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:50.240
Just curious, uh, was there any treatments?
00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:57.759
You know, obviously for for those of us in uh in the Morgellans world, we know that there's not one size fits all.
00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:01.600
There isn't one treatment protocol that works uh for everyone.
00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:06.159
I wish that there was, but um, but at this point there isn't.
00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:16.399
Is there anything that um that you did uh as far as treatment was concerned, that was, you know, most helpful for you?
00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:26.399
Yeah, I think looking back to my early 20s, um, it's it feels like it came in in series of steps of how to really heal myself.
00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:32.799
And I think that when you're in your 20s, you have so many things going on in your world that it's hard to comprehend everything.
00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:41.519
So, of course, there's gonna be illnesses and infections, and there's absolutely traumas, things that I wasn't able to process at that time, and they all played a role in my healing.
00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:50.159
So I'd say early 20s, moving into grad school, um, the most important thing for me was removing toxicities out of my life.
00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:54.320
So, yeah, you know, back when I was in my 20s, I drank, I partied.
00:10:54.480 --> 00:11:05.840
I think removing those things from my life was is was crucial because it removed toxins, it helped reduce inflammation, it also helped get me into a mindset where I was able to heal.
00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:10.639
And then from there, I slowly started to accelerate what healing would look like.
00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:12.960
And so it was very foundational at first.
00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:16.000
And then it started moving into more detoxive therapies.
00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:21.279
I noticed that with every Morgallon's flare, it seemed to be cyclical within my cycle.
00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:30.320
So I started working on my hormones and seeing were there any types of abnormalities within how my menstrual cycle was, like heavy bleeding and cramps and claps.
00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.360
So I tried to kind of work with my estrogen and progesterone.
00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:39.039
Um, I noticed that with every single Morgallon's flare, I also would get a ton of swelling.
00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:41.279
A lot of times those were on my lymph nodes.
00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:44.320
So for me, it felt like there was definitely lymphatic involvement.
00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:52.000
So I started working a lot with lymphatic, lymphatic drainage, a lot of different therapies that would help support movement in the body.
00:11:52.159 --> 00:12:02.159
Um, and then that continued to accelerate into um removing things in my environment, not only in a like a foundational way, but replacement of things.
00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:14.320
So for instance, focusing on um, you know, not drinking from a water bottle that's plastic anymore, removing all Teflon items from the house, just these are very small toxins that accumulate in the body.
00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:22.399
And I think they absolutely affect our skin and they affect any type of infection that could be triggering more gallons.
00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:27.440
Um, and then the final piece of this, I feel like, was actually antimicrobial therapy.
00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:32.080
Um, so focusing on my underlying Lyme disease and treating that.
00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:47.919
And I think the combination of doing all of those things ultimately put me into a state where I can consider myself in remission because I don't necessarily think you ever get rid of Morgons because I'm I'm under the impression that it is more of a Lyme-driven disease.
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:59.840
So I don't necessarily know if you fully ever get rid of these things, but I think you get the infection down to a place where your body is no longer being triggered and creating those responses of producing the filaments.
00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:04.080
So yeah, I think that was kind of like the series and steps I had to take.
00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:06.559
And it definitely evolved throughout the years.
00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:12.080
And for me, if it was great because it also evolved with my my ability to learn.
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:26.159
So each step of the way, it felt, you know, foundational in the beginning because that's all I had to at that point in my life was the most basic and obvious things, remove alcohol, sleep better, get exercise, include more fiber, whole foods.
00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:32.799
And then it evolved to like, oh, detox and then environmental toxicities and then antimicrobial therapy.
00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:38.240
Yeah, it's uh uh it's definitely a journey, that's for sure.
00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:53.120
Oh, and I guess uh and and throughout there, towards the antimicrobial phase of things, there was, you know, meeting with um uh a constellation therapist, which you know, they look back on family regression.
00:13:53.279 --> 00:14:01.919
And I think that with this illness, you can you can definitely look into any illness into more of a metaphysical way or metaphorical way.
00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:06.559
And for me, this one felt like my body was screaming for help.
00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:11.759
And so I had to understand like, is this my illness or is this something that's been passed down to me from other generations?
00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:14.879
And that's where a lot of work came from that as well.
00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:16.320
I'm curious.
00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:26.159
Um, just I would imagine that because of your own personal experiences, the way you then show up for your patients is probably different.
00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:28.000
So can you talk a little bit about that?
00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:33.519
How your own personal experience has affected or shaped the way that you treat your patients.
00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:35.600
Of course, of course.
00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:44.000
I feel like the the the first visit, uh most importantly, I'm just trying to establish rapport with someone and care.
00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:50.799
I I feel like it does nobody any type of benefit by just immediately dismissing their symptoms.
00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:59.039
Even if potentially there is no validity to a symptom, which that doesn't actually even make sense because they're still experiencing that symptom.
00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:00.720
So there is validity to that.
00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:07.679
But by immediately just telling them that it's this is this is of no scientific basis, that doesn't help anybody.
00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:12.399
So yeah, I always first listen to them and I try to understand what's going on.
00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:16.879
And I feel like it takes at least a couple of visits to really just understand who they are as a person.
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:23.919
And I feel like, you know, most of my patients, they're in their 30s to 60s, and so they've lived a good amount of life.
00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:28.159
They have experiences, they have a journey that they've had.
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:36.080
And so I really try to hone in on who they are as a person, understand them, what's going on in their lives and what are their ultimate goals.
00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:48.720
And so, yeah, we might not even talk about Lyme or different toxins in their life until a couple of visits in, just because if they do come to me and they already think that they have more gallons, it's they already probably have a ton of medical trauma.
00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:52.240
So the first thing I want to do is just make sure they feel safe.
00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:59.759
And I think if I would have got that at a young age, uh it would have saved me a lot of pain and a lot of suffering.
00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:01.679
But not one person ever offered that to me.
00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:04.559
And so I'm really hoping that I can at least offer that to my patients.
00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:10.000
Just, you know, being being a sounding board and a safe place for them to speak their concerns.
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:12.639
Well, you do a good job.
00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:13.840
Thank you.
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:15.519
Thank you so much.
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:23.039
What I'd like people to understand is just how complex Lyme co-infections are.
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:29.919
And it's often described as appealing layers of an onion bag.
00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:33.120
Can you talk a little bit about why that why that is?
00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:40.960
So um, you know, why it's so difficult to actually treat, um, maybe talk about biofilm.
00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.000
Just, you know, it's it's it's a challenge.
00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:52.320
And I don't know oftentimes that people necessarily understand that um that there are layers.
00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:58.639
Um, I know for myself when I first got into it, I had no idea.
00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:07.440
Um, now being two and a half years into treatment, you know, and I'd say I'm probably like 80, 85% somewhere in there.
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:17.359
But um I had no idea the trajectory of this illness and how difficult it is to treat.
00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:18.480
I had no idea.
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:22.960
Saying that I do complex chronic illness, sometimes I wonder, what does that really even mean?
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:32.079
And you're right, it's because you, I guess if you break it down, you think about you have an illness, it's become chronic, and there's complexities to it.
00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:34.240
So, what is the complexity to that?
00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:40.240
Well, within the physiological or biological world, there's many infections that could be influencing that.
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:44.160
And that's just one element of being chronically ill.
00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:52.640
But then within that, there is, of course, still, you know, you have a spiritual, you're if you have a spiritual practice, there could be a spiritual orientation to that, and there's many layers within that.
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:56.000
And then there's the mental health aspect, and there's many layers within that.
00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:04.640
So within each of these aspects of who you are as a person, you know, spirit, mind, and body, there's many layers within each of those as well.
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:16.799
So I think that's why it's so complex is there's met there's so many things that encompass what a human being is, but then in each of those segments, there's many, you know, different um findings within each of that too.
00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:32.880
So within the chronic infection realm, the reason it's so complex is because the immune system, the way that the immune system is working with these infections, um, oftentimes there are many of them that are influencing the body.
00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:35.680
And it's hard to capture a lot of these on tests.
00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:43.039
So unfortunately, a lot of people will just go their whole lives being told they don't have this infection where they potentially do have this infection.
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:51.119
And it's because the testing that a lot of conventional doctors are using, unfortunately, they may not be as specific or sensitive or as broad.
00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:55.039
They're not really looking at the information that we need to potentially look at.
00:18:55.279 --> 00:19:08.319
Um, so yeah, with Morgallons, oftentimes the reason it's thought to be related to Lyme disease is because when they take these skin samples of these patients, they find that Borelia, Bergdorfry, that spirochete.
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:17.839
And so I think they just have, through the research, the potential limited research that exists out there, they've just extrapolated that these are the two things that are related.
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:26.160
And I guess clinically, what I have seen is I treat Lyme very similar to honestly a lot of other infections in the body.
00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:33.599
So even if it's a mold exposure or a parasitic exposure or a chronic virus like cytomeglovirus, Epson bar.
00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:41.680
Um, I, in some ways, I think that the majority of the population potentially has been exposed to Lyme at some point in their life.
00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:45.279
Um, and the level of that varies based off of each person.
00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:52.400
So, of course, there is some people who maybe never have been exposed to it, but I do feel like it's pretty prevalent now where there has been some sort of exposure.
00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:55.599
So we can already assume that a lot of people have been exposed to it.
00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:58.960
But the next question is why is it becoming a problem for some people?
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:00.960
And why isn't it a problem for other people?
00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:04.559
And that's the part where you hone in on well, how high is the infection?
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:10.559
If it's an extremely high infectious burden, then you have to reduce the amount of the infection in the body.
00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:15.359
But then there's also the immune system piece of why is the immune system reacting to that infection.
00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:35.039
So that's the multifactorial piece there, why I think it becomes so complex is because you never really know is it truly there's so much infection in the body, or is it just the immune system is overreacting and creating these symptoms, i.e., filaments, you know, skin cells being um producing like the collagen.
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:38.640
So um that part in itself is is pretty complex.
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:41.519
But then also, what affects the immune system?
00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:43.440
That in itself is complex.
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:49.680
It could be anything from what your mental state is at that moment, other infections that you've been exposed to.
00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:53.279
And that's where understanding the immune system burden is really important.
00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:55.680
How many other things have they been exposed to in their life?
00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:56.720
Is there a mold history?
00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:59.599
Do they actively have some dysbiosis in the gut?
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:01.680
Are they fighting off a parasite?
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:06.799
All of those things influence your body's ability to actually overcome a Lyme infection.
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:16.960
And so I think that's why, yeah, this can get a little complex, is because you can use standardized testing or try to get as much objective data as possible.
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:21.839
But Lyme disease doesn't always pop up positive on testing.
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:33.599
And that's because these infections are, they're very intelligent, especially the Borelia bacteria in itself, it's very intelligent and it knows how to produce what's called a biofilm.
00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:48.880
So it's kind of like this fatty layer that it creates around itself almost like a shield, so that if you do end up giving some sort of antimicrobial therapy like an antibiotic, the infection can almost evade that and and protect itself from it.
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:59.039
So if you're relying on testing to show that your immune system is reacting to an infection, but then this infection is creating a shield around it, you might have a negative result.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.319
And that's why testing can be difficult.
00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:08.240
And that's why co-infections can be difficult, is because they are oftentimes, you know, moving throughout the body.
00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:16.079
There could be a state where one week throughout the month you feel like you have more Bartonella symptoms, and another week throughout the month you have more Borrelia-like symptoms.
00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:20.480
And that's truly because these infections are able to evade the immune system like that.
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:33.039
Is there anything that you, as you see treating your Morgellans patients, is there anything that you generally start off with like your protocol?
00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:39.119
So is it the antibiotics, you know, is it the topical?
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:46.960
Um, is it, I mean, obviously the IV to treat um um obviously the Lyme.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:59.680
I feel really lucky in that my lime uh as it dies, um, my Morgellins is leaving my body at a wrap and clip, but I know that that is not for everybody.
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:08.480
You know, I'm on support groups online and see every day just that, you know, other folks don't have the same experience.
00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:13.119
Now I don't know what else they're experiencing in their life, you know, and things like that.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:21.119
But um, I certainly feel super fortunate that mine is directly um related to my Lyme.
00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:27.680
And like I said, as my lime leaves my body, my more gallons is leaving my body, but it doesn't always happen like that.
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:34.000
But I also work really hard at following my protocols and sticking to them.
00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:38.880
I mean, I just I don't want to live like this anymore.
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:41.440
So um, so I'm sticking to it.
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:51.039
So anyway, can you talk a little bit about maybe um generally kind of where you start off with patients and then kind of you know, maybe where you go again?
00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:55.039
I know everybody's different, but yeah, I think I could kind of touch on that.
00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:56.000
Of course.
00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:58.799
Yeah, you've been a great patient.
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:01.519
You do everything, you do everything that you're supposed to do.
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:03.440
You're very diligent about it.
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:04.400
So it's been great.
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:06.559
So I try.
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:15.440
I think uh to first start out what I do with my Morgallons patients or Morgallons, fungi fungi.
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:22.000
Um I try to first understand honestly which type of Morgallons patient they are.
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:29.119
And the reason I'm saying this is because I think there is, I want to first clarify, I think there's a little caveat to this illness and this diagnosis.
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:38.319
And so unfortunately, I do get a lot of referrals because I think a lot of doctors, unfortunately, just throw this diagnosis on a lot of patients, unfortunately.
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:45.279
And so um it's almost like, in some ways, a diagnosis of exclusion or like, you know, irrital bowel syndrome.
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.400
They're like, you have things coming out of your body.
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:50.799
Um, so we're just gonna tell you you have more gallons.
00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:57.279
I think the reason there is a lot of misinformation out there is because there's, of course, this spectrum of what a Morgallons patients look like.
00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:13.359
And so um I have had a whole myriad of presentations, and one that really stands out in my mind is particularly unfortunately a patient who um is on a lot of different drugs right now.
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:22.559
Um, there is a lot of mental health involvement, and they do come in with a bag of rocks from being outside or like shoelaces.
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:29.680
And so there are things that you have to reason through logically where you're like, huh, maybe this is something beyond more gallons.
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:33.599
Like, not to deny that this isn't more gallons, but there is something else going on in there.
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:48.160
And unfortunately, I think sometimes these presentations are what take up the entire internet, and then it kind of dismisses the folks on this end of the spectrum who um potentially really need to get care in a different way.
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:59.119
And then the care for these folks is maybe a presentation of where they have these fibers coming out of their body, and you know, that varies from patient to patient, too.
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:02.480
Am I able to comment on the type of fiber for you, Britt?
00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:03.759
Oh, of course, yeah.
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:13.279
So, you know, Britt's fibers are more, they truly look plastic in nature in some ways, where they're blue and they all look very much the same.
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:16.240
And so that, you know, that's a subset in itself.
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:25.519
And then there's folks who have potentially the colorful, um, the colorful ones that could be, you know, more filamentous in nature.
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:29.279
And and I think those are a presentation in itself as well.
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:33.519
So each of these I do feel like in some ways deserves a different approach.
00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:41.200
And the reason I say that is because if the first step is trying to assess where are you on this spectrum, it's the the treatment is very different.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:54.480
If you're coming in here and unfortunately someone just gave you this more gallons diagnosis and there are potentially like true shoelaces in a bag, you know, this this tells me there's a little bit more help and support that's needed with mental health.
00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:56.880
And that's when I review the med list with them.
00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:09.279
And I say, hey, I don't know if maybe these high dose testosterone injections and the Suboxone or like all these other things that could be going on in your life, potentially they could be doing more harm for you right now.
00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:15.279
And it's it's it's potentially an obstacle for us getting to know you better and what infection could be present.
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:24.799
And so first I try to really lay the foundation with that and try to help them remove some of these medications that could be altering their immune system or worsening their condition.
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:33.440
And then once we get to that point, hopefully then we can start dissecting or diving into what infection is most prominent.
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:44.160
Um, and so that's where you know we kind of get into this spectrum of things, and that's where I'll oftentimes run specialty testing to see what is most prominent.
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:51.119
Um even if it is a Lyme-related illness, and that's the assumption that we're operating from.
00:27:51.359 --> 00:28:01.359
If a person has a really unhealthy environment, uh it doesn't matter how many antimicrobials I throw at you, it's not gonna work.
00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:03.200
It could potentially make things worse.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:05.039
And so I have to stabilize you.
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:06.720
And what does stabilization mean?
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:09.599
That means making sure all of your amunctories are open.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:13.039
A monctories are the ways that our body detoxes naturally.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:18.400
So it's, you know, through breathing and sweating and urination, bow movements.
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:29.039
And so I really have to make sure all of those things are operating at the you know highest capacity so that you can actually get rid of any type of waste production in your body.
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:42.319
And if we're operating, again, under this assumption that even if this is something that the body makes, even if it isn't something the body makes and it's potentially a contaminant from the environment, well, you still have to get it out of your body regardless.
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:51.039
And so that's where I think the first step is really truly making sure that your environment is suitable for you to detox and is pretty and is stable.
00:28:51.200 --> 00:29:01.920
And then after that, I think um moving into figuring out which infection is causing the most problem in the body or is potentially the most harmful.
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:10.720
So I think a lot of Morgellans doctors would probably first hone in on the Borelia because that's classically the Lyme disease.
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:12.640
That's what has the most research out there.
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:37.920
But if they're presenting and they're telling me that they have, you know, night sweats and severe brain fog and rashes and shortness of breath and anaphylactic reactions, and it's very histamine-like in nature, you know, you have to investigate mold because if they're living in a moldy environment, it's stimulating their immune system so much that if I go in and I try to help them with an infection like Lyme, it might not do anything and it might cause more harm.
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:54.640
So I really think like finding a doctor and or trying to understand what potentially is in your environment that is influencing your body is is very, very important because it's it really is the basis for how you set up your healing journey.
00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:58.720
Yeah, finding a doctor, that comment.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:10.000
I know it just, you know, it breaks my heart because every day um that I go on the support groups, um people are just, you know, being gaslit.
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:14.480
And, you know, I wish that everybody had the same opportunity.
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:28.559
Yeah, I mean, you're gonna have to go outside of Western um medicine, um, but not everybody has, you know, additional resources, financial resources to pay for alternative therapies.
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:31.759
And so it just gets so frustrating.
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:51.839
I wish that, you know, we had a database that um maybe um provided patients with physicians that were, you know, even if they're not Lyme literate, you know, or more gellens, more gelins literate, that, you know, um, that they're open, they're open to learning.
00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:53.920
Um, that would be a great place to start.
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:59.119
But I think we've got um a really long way to go, a really long way to go.
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.079
Um yeah, it's pretty frustrating.
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:07.680
There is a whole host of us that are out there just absolutely struggling, struggling every day.
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:10.720
Is there anything that you'd want them to know?
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:20.079
Um, you know, I um yeah, I mean, just you know, certainly not losing hope, right?
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:23.039
But that's that's easier said than done.
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:37.279
So just trying to think if if you could connect with some of the patients out there, some of the listeners, um, you know, what would you, you know, if they're feelings discouraged or stuck, what would you want them to know?
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:44.480
Yeah, I think I'd want them to know that everything that they're experiencing is valid.
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:53.680
Wherever, whatever the diagnosis is, wherever it falls on any kind of spectrum or whatever is going on, their suffering is real and their symptoms are real.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:01.039
And I know that a lot of times people get really caught up on I think just that aspect of it of is my symptom real?
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:01.680
Is it not real?
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:03.680
Whatever you're experiencing, it is real.
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:06.640
And um, you can always get better.
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:26.319
There's always room for improvement, even if you don't have potentially access to a doctor who is literate in these conditions, or if you feel like you don't have the finances to provide or you know, pay for these different treatments, there are always things that you can do in your life that can help your current state.
00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:40.000
And I think um that goes as to say to not give up because um there is more information coming out now, I think, on this illness as well as Lyme.
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:44.720
And I think that with this, it's able to reach more audiences.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:59.440
And I'm hoping that by, you know, even engaging in this podcast, it gives people an opportunity to just hear these words and hear these terms: Lyme disease or you know, mold exposure, detoxing, lymphatic movement.
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:03.759
Although they seem like they're simple terms, a lot of people don't even really know what this means.
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:10.880
And they're they're very, they're very important in your body's ability to really overcome any type of illness, especially Morgellan.
00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:21.039
So I want to just tell the listeners to not give up and to also give them a little bit of encouragement that they can do this.
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:24.400
They don't necessarily always need to have a practitioner involved.
00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:34.480
I feel like with the way that we have um evolving technology now, a lot of my patients come to me and they have a lot of information on their own.
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:42.079
Um, so they're they're able to find resources online, uh, support groups, potentially, like of course, Reddit threads.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:44.480
I say I stay away a little bit from Chat GPT.
00:33:44.559 --> 00:34:00.319
I don't think it has a lot of good information right now about these current themes, but there are a lot of ways, you know, social media, TikTok, Instagram, you can connect with other folks and you can get more information from other people, even if you feel like you're in an area where you're not able to actually access true care.
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:12.000
But I also want to say that with a caveat of, you know, be careful and use discretion because um there is a lot of misinformation about treatments out there.
00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:15.360
And sometimes they can do more harm for you than they can be helpful.
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:22.079
And so ideally it would, you know, be able to find a provider who can help you or at least guide you.
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:37.519
And um, I know that there are providers, you know, throughout the US that although they might not be able to legally treat you in that state, they can at least offer you counseling or guidance on these topics and ideas so that you're not feeling so stuck or alone in it, which I know can be a really scary place to be.
00:34:37.920 --> 00:35:06.800
The main reason that I'm doing this podcast is, you know, um to try to be a resource to folks that are currently struggling um and um hopefully get some appropriate eyes on us um to just see, you know, see who we are, that we're real, um, and that, you know, we need some some help, support, and some resources in our direction.
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:12.159
Um, that would be really helpful because, you know, right now it's it's speculation.
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:17.679
I mean, I have to say that the groups that I am on in social media, they're they're incredible.
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:18.639
They're incredible.
00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:26.880
The amount of support and guidance that they're able to offer to folks who otherwise are, you know, very marginalized, isolated.
00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:35.360
You know, a lot of folks too, right, have, you know, lost their lost their jobs, lost their homes, lost their families.
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:37.519
Um, and it's heartbreaking.
00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:43.360
And it's, you know, for me, it's um the main reason that I decided to do this.
00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:52.639
I I, you know, we need to be seen, we need to be heard, we need dollars coming in our direction to help, um, to help support us.
00:35:53.039 --> 00:36:05.679
Um, and um so um, so I want to thank you for for joining us today and sharing your own personal experience with um Lyme and Morgellons, more gelens.
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:11.199
Um, and also just, you know, being a fantastic um provider for me.
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:19.280
I can't thank you enough um for um everything that you've done for me on this journey.
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:21.280
I would totally cry.
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:24.239
But I can't I can't thank you enough.
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:30.880
Um I'm you know, I do, I feel like I'm at 80 to 85 percent.
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:40.320
And um I've been at it for two and a half years, and it's a long journey, definitely a long journey.
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:42.800
So I'm just grateful.
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:50.000
I felt like, you know, when I met you, I felt like here's this angel.
00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:59.519
And not only is she my naturopath, but uh ironically, she has Lyme and more gallons as well.
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:09.440
And you know, you were my first person I had met that had the same disease, and you know, there's something to be said about that.
00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:11.840
So I can't thank you enough.
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:13.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:25.039
I think you know, that's that moves me so much because I was just a couple of months into residency and I remember my supervisor was like, hey, I think you, you know, you should see this patient.
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:27.920
I think I think you and her might actually get along.
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:35.119
And then just hearing your story, it was so validating for me in some ways too, because it made me feel not alone.
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:44.159
And our stories are so similar in in how it happened and how it presented, and just so many of the things that are underlying, you know, influencers.
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:48.239
And it felt like as much as it was healing for you, it was healing for me.
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:53.440
Because I feel like, you know, many practitioners go into this because they have had something happen to them in life.
00:37:53.519 --> 00:38:00.000
And so the the patient provider relationship is just as healing for the provider as it is for the patient.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:01.679
So thank you for all that you have done.
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:10.800
And I see how much you have a spark in you right now, and you're just pro you're just going forward with life right now, creating this podcast, trying to reach audiences.
00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:14.719
It it's a it's a great use of free will.
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:16.000
Let's just say that.
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:16.880
Thank you.
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:27.280
Yeah, yeah, I intend, um, I intend for this to be um um very healing for me as well.
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:38.559
And I hope that the audience and listeners um feel the same way that it's a safe place um to come to to uh to be validated, to be heard, to be seen.
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:50.159
Um, and then hopefully we can, you know, again get some dollars in our direction and we can be a good resource for folks um to access care and um other support.
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:54.400
So um so thank you so much for um for joining us today.
00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:55.760
I can't thank you enough.
00:38:56.320 --> 00:38:56.960
You're welcome.
00:38:57.119 --> 00:38:58.320
Oh, thank you for having me.
00:38:58.400 --> 00:38:59.280
This has been incredible.
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:03.840
And yes, just a last word to any listeners, keep pushing through this.
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:20.800
I know it feels extremely scary, and I know that there are times where you don't know if you can continue moving forward, but I want to encourage you that there are many people who are experiencing what you're experiencing, but there are also doctors who are actively trying to help this population of people, myself included.
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:23.679
You're gonna find a lot of other doctors that Britt will interview.
00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:37.199
And we're all trying to help these patients find some sort of stability in their life and also find some sort of a you know healing, healing, miraculous healing opportunity so that they're not suffering anymore.
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:39.920
So yeah, I just want to let you know that we're all here for you.
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:41.199
Thank you.
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:41.920
Thank you.
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:43.199
We appreciate you.
00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:46.800
Thank you so much for tuning in to What the Morgux podcast.
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:48.719
I'm beyond grateful that you're here.
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:51.760
And thank you so much for being a part of the special community.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:40:00.719
To learn more, you can visit us at whatthemorgues.com and you can follow us on Facebook and Instagram at WhatThemorgues podcast.
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:02.960
Thank you so much for tuning in.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:06.240
Hi, I'm Britt Gervin, host of What the Morgs podcast, and I am so happy that you're here.
00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:12.240
This podcast is dedicated to raising awareness for both Lyme and Morgellan's disease.
00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:20.239
I promise to give you authentic conversation, lived experiences, and expert interviews with people in the medical community.
00:00:20.399 --> 00:00:22.559
I'm so grateful that you're here.
00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:24.559
Thank you so much for tuning in.
00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:27.760
Out of nowhere, I just started developing full body lesions.
00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:30.160
I noticed there was like weird filaments.
00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:33.200
They were colorful, they were red, they were white, they were black.
00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:35.840
It felt like glass shards under my skin.
00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:36.960
And it was full body.
00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:39.439
I had, you know, pretty great skin up until that point.
00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:42.560
So I went to a dermatologist for the first time in my life.
00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:45.359
I went to many primary care doctors.
00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:48.240
Uh, even that thing went to an infectious disease doctor at one point.
00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:52.320
And every single one of them, it was the same story where this was all a delusion.
00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:56.560
I needed to see a psychiatrist and that I was ruining my skin by picking at it.
00:00:56.799 --> 00:01:00.240
There is a whole host of us that are out there just absolutely struggling.
00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:03.119
Is there anything that you'd want them to know?
00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:05.439
Certainly not losing hope, right?
00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:08.159
But that's that's easier said than done.
00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:12.560
I think I'd want them to know that everything that they're experiencing is valid.
00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:15.439
Their suffering is real and their symptoms are real.
00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:16.879
You can always get better.
00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:21.280
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the podcast What the Morgs.
00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:23.120
Today we'll be talking with Dr.
00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:38.480
Paula Mater, a doctor in naturopathic medicine, a doctor of acupuncture and oriental medicine, a member of the Environment and Health Committee, and the Environmental Medicine Education International.
00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:58.000
Her clinical focus is with Lyme disease, morgellins, and coinfection, mold illness, autoimmune disorders, with a specialty in women's health and reproductive health, including endocrine health and how chronic illnesses affect women's health.
00:01:58.239 --> 00:01:58.560
Dr.
00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:06.400
Mader believes that the true health is multifaceted, meaning the body, mind, and spirit all work together in harmony.
00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:12.479
She likes to address the nervous system, immune system, and the environment.
00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:13.199
Dr.
00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:19.439
Mader uh completed her residency in complex chronic illnesses under the mentorship of Dr.
00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:20.879
Melanie Stein.
00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:22.000
Uh welcome, Dr.
00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:22.719
Mader.
00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:24.800
I'm so happy to have you today.
00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:26.240
Thank you for joining us.
00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:27.360
Hi, Britt.
00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:28.319
Thank you for having me.
00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:29.759
That was a great introduction.
00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:31.280
I'm so excited.
00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:32.159
Yes.
00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:33.599
Thank you for being here.
00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:51.120
So I wanted to start off today asking you a little bit about um if you could tell uh uh tell the folks uh a little bit about uh yourself, where you're from, your background, um, and maybe some of your uh areas of clinical focus.
00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:52.639
Of course.
00:02:52.960 --> 00:03:02.560
I am originally from the Greater Detroit area in Michigan, where I um studied at a university called Oakland University.
00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:15.199
It was actually one of the only universities at the time, back in the early 2000 10 era, where we had a concentration that you could um study alternative and complimentary medicine.
00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:19.840
So it was one of the few universities that actually had that as an undergrad undergrad concentration.
00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:26.560
So I always kind of knew from a young age I wanted to do medicine, but I wanted to do a different approach to it.
00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:30.080
And so that's where I found the naturopathic approach.
00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:42.080
And then I moved to Seattle, Washington, and I completed my um doctorate in naturopathic medicine, and I also got the licensed acupuncture and oriental medicine degrees.
00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:47.120
And then I moved to Portland, Oregon, where I currently reside, and that's where I'm working right now.
00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:48.719
Wonderful.
00:03:49.120 --> 00:04:02.240
Can you talk a little bit about um was there any particular reason that you chose a naturopathic route versus a um uh a more conventional route?
00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:03.599
Yes.
00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:16.000
It's funny because people, if you ask that question to a lot of other people who've gone into naturopathic medicine, I think a lot of them they have this illness that propels them onto this pathway in life.
00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:22.720
And although I definitely have a whole history of illnesses, um the reason I chose it was from a very young age.
00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:34.000
I noticed that within my own family, within my own community, particularly where I was raised, it just felt like there was such uh a discrepancy in how people got treated.
00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:40.079
So there was lack of care, lack of access to medicine, but then there was also this inability for people to actually get better.
00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:43.600
And I noticed that within my own family and my own friends at a really young age.
00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:50.720
And I just saw the um the inability for people to truly heal within our current paradigm of health.
00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:52.959
So I knew there had to be more to medicine.
00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:55.360
It couldn't just be what we always thought it were to be.
00:04:55.439 --> 00:05:01.040
And so yeah, I somehow found out, you know, there was Reiki and um herbs.
00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:05.600
And I think that's like the first introduction into what this alternative form of medicine could be.
00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:09.040
And that slowly evolved into being naturopathic medicine.
00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:14.879
And that's why I picked it is just because I knew that people needed more to health and wellness.
00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:22.959
And my own experiences even going to the doctors, I just felt like, you know, I wasn't necessarily even getting better, even if I wasn't having big concerns at that time.
00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:27.120
So that yeah, that propelled me to find this great degree.
00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:44.560
What presented itself to you to kind of dive in and to actually see us, to see us uh Morgellans folks, as you know, a real as a real illness were regularly dismissed um in the clinical community.
00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:46.959
And so why did you choose to see us?
00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:48.560
Yeah.
00:05:48.720 --> 00:06:02.000
Um well, I you know, this podcast is important, I feel like not only for listeners to be able to understand that people do suffer with this and that it's not just you know, something that's been created.
00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:03.920
It's not only a delusion.
00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:08.879
Um and I personally even had to experience that on my own.
00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:14.319
And I feel like this podcast is helpful in that way because I'm actually able to announce that in some ways.
00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:21.199
You know, I feel like I also have kept that to myself for many years because of the connotations and the misinformation out there.
00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:30.720
So, from I think I was probably um maybe 20, 22 years old, and just a myriad of events were happening in my life at the time.
00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:34.399
So I was already in undergrads, already on the path to become a naturopath.
00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:36.879
Um, pretty healthy at the time, honestly.
00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:40.800
And then out of nowhere, I just started developing full body lesions.
00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:44.319
Um, and I knew that there were just things coming out of it.
00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:46.800
I noticed there was like weird filaments.
00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:52.560
They were colorful, they were red, they were white, they were black, it felt like glass shards under my skin.
00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:53.680
And it was full body.
00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:56.240
I had, you know, pretty great skin up until that point.
00:06:56.480 --> 00:07:00.079
So I went to a dermatologist for the first time in my life.
00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:11.519
I went to many primary care doctors, different types of, I even I think went to an infectious disease doctor at one point, and every single one of them, it was the same story where this was all a delusion.
00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:16.480
I needed to see a psychiatrist, and that I was ruining my skin by picking at it.
00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:21.040
So that for me felt like there was there's something more out there.
00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:25.839
So that's when I think at the time my partner had Googled what could this possibly be.
00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:28.800
And he was like, hey, I think you have this thing called Morgellons.
00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:37.040
And so, yeah, the rest is kind of uh history where I started to dive into it and look into more information.
00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:41.120
I think at the time there wasn't, there truly wasn't that much that existed.
00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:41.839
I feel like so.
00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:46.399
That was about 2012, so a significant amount of time ago.
00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:48.480
And there wasn't a lot of information.
00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:53.839
There was things back then about potentially, you know, doing electromagnetic therapy in Mexico.
00:07:53.920 --> 00:08:01.279
And so there was definitely these one-off kind of obscure treatments, but at that time I was not knowledgeable and what to do about it.
00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:06.000
So yeah, had tons of lesions, um, non-healing.
00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:18.879
And even going to my first day of medical school at Basty University, I remember having lesions on my face and having problems, you know, throughout my body and feeling like I had to hide throughout that entire journey.
00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:34.159
Because even if you're in a program where it's alternative medicine and it seems to be more accepting, unfortunately, this disease in itself is still one that has a hard audience to capture of people to actually accept it, especially within the medical profession.
00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:37.919
So yeah, that kind of set me onto my own healing journey.
00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:39.600
And we can definitely dive into that.
00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:46.240
But throughout my own medical degree, you know, education program, I learned a lot how to heal myself.
00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:49.919
And then it came a point once I graduated, I was like, well, what am I gonna do now?
00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:51.840
Do I want to go into primary care?
00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:56.080
Do I want to take um a more specialty route and do complex chronic illness?
00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:57.519
And it was really hard for me.
00:08:57.600 --> 00:08:59.200
I think I sat there for a moment.
00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:01.840
I was just like, what do I want to do with my life?
00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:04.480
What is the specialty that I want to go into?
00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:06.799
Um, and yeah, it hit me pretty clearly.
00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:10.879
It's just like, you have more gallons, you've suffered with this thing for so many years.
00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:13.039
Why would you not go into this illness?
00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.240
Why would you not pursue people who have this and are struggling?
00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:24.639
And that's where I found a clinic in Oregon and I saw that they offered complex chronic illness and that they mentioned more gallons on their website.
00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:27.200
So I decided to do a residency with them.
00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:30.000
And now that's primarily what I treat.
00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:30.960
Awesome.
00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:32.399
Thank you for sharing.
00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:39.279
Yeah, I would imagine 2012 and you being in your early 20s, that was probably quite isolating.
00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:47.039
You know, I know that this disease is quite isolating for most of us for all the the reasons that you disclosed.
00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:50.240
Just curious, uh, was there any treatments?
00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:57.759
You know, obviously for for those of us in uh in the Morgellans world, we know that there's not one size fits all.
00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:01.600
There isn't one treatment protocol that works uh for everyone.
00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:06.159
I wish that there was, but um, but at this point there isn't.
00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:16.399
Is there anything that um that you did uh as far as treatment was concerned, that was, you know, most helpful for you?
00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:26.399
Yeah, I think looking back to my early 20s, um, it's it feels like it came in in series of steps of how to really heal myself.
00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:32.799
And I think that when you're in your 20s, you have so many things going on in your world that it's hard to comprehend everything.
00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:41.519
So, of course, there's gonna be illnesses and infections, and there's absolutely traumas, things that I wasn't able to process at that time, and they all played a role in my healing.
00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:50.159
So I'd say early 20s, moving into grad school, um, the most important thing for me was removing toxicities out of my life.
00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:54.320
So, yeah, you know, back when I was in my 20s, I drank, I partied.
00:10:54.480 --> 00:11:05.840
I think removing those things from my life was is was crucial because it removed toxins, it helped reduce inflammation, it also helped get me into a mindset where I was able to heal.
00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:10.639
And then from there, I slowly started to accelerate what healing would look like.
00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:12.960
And so it was very foundational at first.
00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:16.000
And then it started moving into more detoxive therapies.
00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:21.279
I noticed that with every Morgallon's flare, it seemed to be cyclical within my cycle.
00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:30.320
So I started working on my hormones and seeing were there any types of abnormalities within how my menstrual cycle was, like heavy bleeding and cramps and claps.
00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.360
So I tried to kind of work with my estrogen and progesterone.
00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:39.039
Um, I noticed that with every single Morgallon's flare, I also would get a ton of swelling.
00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:41.279
A lot of times those were on my lymph nodes.
00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:44.320
So for me, it felt like there was definitely lymphatic involvement.
00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:52.000
So I started working a lot with lymphatic, lymphatic drainage, a lot of different therapies that would help support movement in the body.
00:11:52.159 --> 00:12:02.159
Um, and then that continued to accelerate into um removing things in my environment, not only in a like a foundational way, but replacement of things.
00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:14.320
So for instance, focusing on um, you know, not drinking from a water bottle that's plastic anymore, removing all Teflon items from the house, just these are very small toxins that accumulate in the body.
00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:22.399
And I think they absolutely affect our skin and they affect any type of infection that could be triggering more gallons.
00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:27.440
Um, and then the final piece of this, I feel like, was actually antimicrobial therapy.
00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:32.080
Um, so focusing on my underlying Lyme disease and treating that.
00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:47.919
And I think the combination of doing all of those things ultimately put me into a state where I can consider myself in remission because I don't necessarily think you ever get rid of Morgons because I'm I'm under the impression that it is more of a Lyme-driven disease.
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:59.840
So I don't necessarily know if you fully ever get rid of these things, but I think you get the infection down to a place where your body is no longer being triggered and creating those responses of producing the filaments.
00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:04.080
So yeah, I think that was kind of like the series and steps I had to take.
00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:06.559
And it definitely evolved throughout the years.
00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:12.080
And for me, if it was great because it also evolved with my my ability to learn.
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:26.159
So each step of the way, it felt, you know, foundational in the beginning because that's all I had to at that point in my life was the most basic and obvious things, remove alcohol, sleep better, get exercise, include more fiber, whole foods.
00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:32.799
And then it evolved to like, oh, detox and then environmental toxicities and then antimicrobial therapy.
00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:38.240
Yeah, it's uh uh it's definitely a journey, that's for sure.
00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:53.120
Oh, and I guess uh and and throughout there, towards the antimicrobial phase of things, there was, you know, meeting with um uh a constellation therapist, which you know, they look back on family regression.
00:13:53.279 --> 00:14:01.919
And I think that with this illness, you can you can definitely look into any illness into more of a metaphysical way or metaphorical way.
00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:06.559
And for me, this one felt like my body was screaming for help.
00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:11.759
And so I had to understand like, is this my illness or is this something that's been passed down to me from other generations?
00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:14.879
And that's where a lot of work came from that as well.
00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:16.320
I'm curious.
00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:26.159
Um, just I would imagine that because of your own personal experiences, the way you then show up for your patients is probably different.
00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:28.000
So can you talk a little bit about that?
00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:33.519
How your own personal experience has affected or shaped the way that you treat your patients.
00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:35.600
Of course, of course.
00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:44.000
I feel like the the the first visit, uh most importantly, I'm just trying to establish rapport with someone and care.
00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:50.799
I I feel like it does nobody any type of benefit by just immediately dismissing their symptoms.
00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:59.039
Even if potentially there is no validity to a symptom, which that doesn't actually even make sense because they're still experiencing that symptom.
00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:00.720
So there is validity to that.
00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:07.679
But by immediately just telling them that it's this is this is of no scientific basis, that doesn't help anybody.
00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:12.399
So yeah, I always first listen to them and I try to understand what's going on.
00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:16.879
And I feel like it takes at least a couple of visits to really just understand who they are as a person.
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:23.919
And I feel like, you know, most of my patients, they're in their 30s to 60s, and so they've lived a good amount of life.
00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:28.159
They have experiences, they have a journey that they've had.
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:36.080
And so I really try to hone in on who they are as a person, understand them, what's going on in their lives and what are their ultimate goals.
00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:48.720
And so, yeah, we might not even talk about Lyme or different toxins in their life until a couple of visits in, just because if they do come to me and they already think that they have more gallons, it's they already probably have a ton of medical trauma.
00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:52.240
So the first thing I want to do is just make sure they feel safe.
00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:59.759
And I think if I would have got that at a young age, uh it would have saved me a lot of pain and a lot of suffering.
00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:01.679
But not one person ever offered that to me.
00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:04.559
And so I'm really hoping that I can at least offer that to my patients.
00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:10.000
Just, you know, being being a sounding board and a safe place for them to speak their concerns.
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:12.639
Well, you do a good job.
00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:13.840
Thank you.
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:15.519
Thank you so much.
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:23.039
What I'd like people to understand is just how complex Lyme co-infections are.
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:29.919
And it's often described as appealing layers of an onion bag.
00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:33.120
Can you talk a little bit about why that why that is?
00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:40.960
So um, you know, why it's so difficult to actually treat, um, maybe talk about biofilm.
00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.000
Just, you know, it's it's it's a challenge.
00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:52.320
And I don't know oftentimes that people necessarily understand that um that there are layers.
00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:58.639
Um, I know for myself when I first got into it, I had no idea.
00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:07.440
Um, now being two and a half years into treatment, you know, and I'd say I'm probably like 80, 85% somewhere in there.
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:17.359
But um I had no idea the trajectory of this illness and how difficult it is to treat.
00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:18.480
I had no idea.
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:22.960
Saying that I do complex chronic illness, sometimes I wonder, what does that really even mean?
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:32.079
And you're right, it's because you, I guess if you break it down, you think about you have an illness, it's become chronic, and there's complexities to it.
00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:34.240
So, what is the complexity to that?
00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:40.240
Well, within the physiological or biological world, there's many infections that could be influencing that.
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:44.160
And that's just one element of being chronically ill.
00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:52.640
But then within that, there is, of course, still, you know, you have a spiritual, you're if you have a spiritual practice, there could be a spiritual orientation to that, and there's many layers within that.
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:56.000
And then there's the mental health aspect, and there's many layers within that.
00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:04.640
So within each of these aspects of who you are as a person, you know, spirit, mind, and body, there's many layers within each of those as well.
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:16.799
So I think that's why it's so complex is there's met there's so many things that encompass what a human being is, but then in each of those segments, there's many, you know, different um findings within each of that too.
00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:32.880
So within the chronic infection realm, the reason it's so complex is because the immune system, the way that the immune system is working with these infections, um, oftentimes there are many of them that are influencing the body.
00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:35.680
And it's hard to capture a lot of these on tests.
00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:43.039
So unfortunately, a lot of people will just go their whole lives being told they don't have this infection where they potentially do have this infection.
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:51.119
And it's because the testing that a lot of conventional doctors are using, unfortunately, they may not be as specific or sensitive or as broad.
00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:55.039
They're not really looking at the information that we need to potentially look at.
00:18:55.279 --> 00:19:08.319
Um, so yeah, with Morgallons, oftentimes the reason it's thought to be related to Lyme disease is because when they take these skin samples of these patients, they find that Borelia, Bergdorfry, that spirochete.
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:17.839
And so I think they just have, through the research, the potential limited research that exists out there, they've just extrapolated that these are the two things that are related.
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:26.160
And I guess clinically, what I have seen is I treat Lyme very similar to honestly a lot of other infections in the body.
00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:33.599
So even if it's a mold exposure or a parasitic exposure or a chronic virus like cytomeglovirus, Epson bar.
00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:41.680
Um, I, in some ways, I think that the majority of the population potentially has been exposed to Lyme at some point in their life.
00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:45.279
Um, and the level of that varies based off of each person.
00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:52.400
So, of course, there is some people who maybe never have been exposed to it, but I do feel like it's pretty prevalent now where there has been some sort of exposure.
00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:55.599
So we can already assume that a lot of people have been exposed to it.
00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:58.960
But the next question is why is it becoming a problem for some people?
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:00.960
And why isn't it a problem for other people?
00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:04.559
And that's the part where you hone in on well, how high is the infection?
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:10.559
If it's an extremely high infectious burden, then you have to reduce the amount of the infection in the body.
00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:15.359
But then there's also the immune system piece of why is the immune system reacting to that infection.
00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:35.039
So that's the multifactorial piece there, why I think it becomes so complex is because you never really know is it truly there's so much infection in the body, or is it just the immune system is overreacting and creating these symptoms, i.e., filaments, you know, skin cells being um producing like the collagen.
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:38.640
So um that part in itself is is pretty complex.
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:41.519
But then also, what affects the immune system?
00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:43.440
That in itself is complex.
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:49.680
It could be anything from what your mental state is at that moment, other infections that you've been exposed to.
00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:53.279
And that's where understanding the immune system burden is really important.
00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:55.680
How many other things have they been exposed to in their life?
00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:56.720
Is there a mold history?
00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:59.599
Do they actively have some dysbiosis in the gut?
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:01.680
Are they fighting off a parasite?
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:06.799
All of those things influence your body's ability to actually overcome a Lyme infection.
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:16.960
And so I think that's why, yeah, this can get a little complex, is because you can use standardized testing or try to get as much objective data as possible.
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:21.839
But Lyme disease doesn't always pop up positive on testing.
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:33.599
And that's because these infections are, they're very intelligent, especially the Borelia bacteria in itself, it's very intelligent and it knows how to produce what's called a biofilm.
00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:48.880
So it's kind of like this fatty layer that it creates around itself almost like a shield, so that if you do end up giving some sort of antimicrobial therapy like an antibiotic, the infection can almost evade that and and protect itself from it.
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:59.039
So if you're relying on testing to show that your immune system is reacting to an infection, but then this infection is creating a shield around it, you might have a negative result.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.319
And that's why testing can be difficult.
00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:08.240
And that's why co-infections can be difficult, is because they are oftentimes, you know, moving throughout the body.
00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:16.079
There could be a state where one week throughout the month you feel like you have more Bartonella symptoms, and another week throughout the month you have more Borrelia-like symptoms.
00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:20.480
And that's truly because these infections are able to evade the immune system like that.
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:33.039
Is there anything that you, as you see treating your Morgellans patients, is there anything that you generally start off with like your protocol?
00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:39.119
So is it the antibiotics, you know, is it the topical?
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:46.960
Um, is it, I mean, obviously the IV to treat um um obviously the Lyme.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:59.680
I feel really lucky in that my lime uh as it dies, um, my Morgellins is leaving my body at a wrap and clip, but I know that that is not for everybody.
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:08.480
You know, I'm on support groups online and see every day just that, you know, other folks don't have the same experience.
00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:13.119
Now I don't know what else they're experiencing in their life, you know, and things like that.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:21.119
But um, I certainly feel super fortunate that mine is directly um related to my Lyme.
00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:27.680
And like I said, as my lime leaves my body, my more gallons is leaving my body, but it doesn't always happen like that.
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:34.000
But I also work really hard at following my protocols and sticking to them.
00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:38.880
I mean, I just I don't want to live like this anymore.
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:41.440
So um, so I'm sticking to it.
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:51.039
So anyway, can you talk a little bit about maybe um generally kind of where you start off with patients and then kind of you know, maybe where you go again?
00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:55.039
I know everybody's different, but yeah, I think I could kind of touch on that.
00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:56.000
Of course.
00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:58.799
Yeah, you've been a great patient.
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:01.519
You do everything, you do everything that you're supposed to do.
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:03.440
You're very diligent about it.
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:04.400
So it's been great.
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:06.559
So I try.
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:15.440
I think uh to first start out what I do with my Morgallons patients or Morgallons, fungi fungi.
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:22.000
Um I try to first understand honestly which type of Morgallons patient they are.
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:29.119
And the reason I'm saying this is because I think there is, I want to first clarify, I think there's a little caveat to this illness and this diagnosis.
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:38.319
And so unfortunately, I do get a lot of referrals because I think a lot of doctors, unfortunately, just throw this diagnosis on a lot of patients, unfortunately.
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:45.279
And so um it's almost like, in some ways, a diagnosis of exclusion or like, you know, irrital bowel syndrome.
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.400
They're like, you have things coming out of your body.
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:50.799
Um, so we're just gonna tell you you have more gallons.
00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:57.279
I think the reason there is a lot of misinformation out there is because there's, of course, this spectrum of what a Morgallons patients look like.
00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:13.359
And so um I have had a whole myriad of presentations, and one that really stands out in my mind is particularly unfortunately a patient who um is on a lot of different drugs right now.
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:22.559
Um, there is a lot of mental health involvement, and they do come in with a bag of rocks from being outside or like shoelaces.
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:29.680
And so there are things that you have to reason through logically where you're like, huh, maybe this is something beyond more gallons.
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:33.599
Like, not to deny that this isn't more gallons, but there is something else going on in there.
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:48.160
And unfortunately, I think sometimes these presentations are what take up the entire internet, and then it kind of dismisses the folks on this end of the spectrum who um potentially really need to get care in a different way.
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:59.119
And then the care for these folks is maybe a presentation of where they have these fibers coming out of their body, and you know, that varies from patient to patient, too.
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:02.480
Am I able to comment on the type of fiber for you, Britt?
00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:03.759
Oh, of course, yeah.
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:13.279
So, you know, Britt's fibers are more, they truly look plastic in nature in some ways, where they're blue and they all look very much the same.
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:16.240
And so that, you know, that's a subset in itself.
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:25.519
And then there's folks who have potentially the colorful, um, the colorful ones that could be, you know, more filamentous in nature.
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:29.279
And and I think those are a presentation in itself as well.
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:33.519
So each of these I do feel like in some ways deserves a different approach.
00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:41.200
And the reason I say that is because if the first step is trying to assess where are you on this spectrum, it's the the treatment is very different.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:54.480
If you're coming in here and unfortunately someone just gave you this more gallons diagnosis and there are potentially like true shoelaces in a bag, you know, this this tells me there's a little bit more help and support that's needed with mental health.
00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:56.880
And that's when I review the med list with them.
00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:09.279
And I say, hey, I don't know if maybe these high dose testosterone injections and the Suboxone or like all these other things that could be going on in your life, potentially they could be doing more harm for you right now.
00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:15.279
And it's it's it's potentially an obstacle for us getting to know you better and what infection could be present.
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:24.799
And so first I try to really lay the foundation with that and try to help them remove some of these medications that could be altering their immune system or worsening their condition.
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:33.440
And then once we get to that point, hopefully then we can start dissecting or diving into what infection is most prominent.
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:44.160
Um, and so that's where you know we kind of get into this spectrum of things, and that's where I'll oftentimes run specialty testing to see what is most prominent.
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:51.119
Um even if it is a Lyme-related illness, and that's the assumption that we're operating from.
00:27:51.359 --> 00:28:01.359
If a person has a really unhealthy environment, uh it doesn't matter how many antimicrobials I throw at you, it's not gonna work.
00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:03.200
It could potentially make things worse.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:05.039
And so I have to stabilize you.
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:06.720
And what does stabilization mean?
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:09.599
That means making sure all of your amunctories are open.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:13.039
A monctories are the ways that our body detoxes naturally.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:18.400
So it's, you know, through breathing and sweating and urination, bow movements.
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:29.039
And so I really have to make sure all of those things are operating at the you know highest capacity so that you can actually get rid of any type of waste production in your body.
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:42.319
And if we're operating, again, under this assumption that even if this is something that the body makes, even if it isn't something the body makes and it's potentially a contaminant from the environment, well, you still have to get it out of your body regardless.
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:51.039
And so that's where I think the first step is really truly making sure that your environment is suitable for you to detox and is pretty and is stable.
00:28:51.200 --> 00:29:01.920
And then after that, I think um moving into figuring out which infection is causing the most problem in the body or is potentially the most harmful.
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:10.720
So I think a lot of Morgellans doctors would probably first hone in on the Borelia because that's classically the Lyme disease.
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:12.640
That's what has the most research out there.
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:37.920
But if they're presenting and they're telling me that they have, you know, night sweats and severe brain fog and rashes and shortness of breath and anaphylactic reactions, and it's very histamine-like in nature, you know, you have to investigate mold because if they're living in a moldy environment, it's stimulating their immune system so much that if I go in and I try to help them with an infection like Lyme, it might not do anything and it might cause more harm.
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:54.640
So I really think like finding a doctor and or trying to understand what potentially is in your environment that is influencing your body is is very, very important because it's it really is the basis for how you set up your healing journey.
00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:58.720
Yeah, finding a doctor, that comment.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:10.000
I know it just, you know, it breaks my heart because every day um that I go on the support groups, um people are just, you know, being gaslit.
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:14.480
And, you know, I wish that everybody had the same opportunity.
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:28.559
Yeah, I mean, you're gonna have to go outside of Western um medicine, um, but not everybody has, you know, additional resources, financial resources to pay for alternative therapies.
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:31.759
And so it just gets so frustrating.
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:51.839
I wish that, you know, we had a database that um maybe um provided patients with physicians that were, you know, even if they're not Lyme literate, you know, or more gellens, more gelins literate, that, you know, um, that they're open, they're open to learning.
00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:53.920
Um, that would be a great place to start.
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:59.119
But I think we've got um a really long way to go, a really long way to go.
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.079
Um yeah, it's pretty frustrating.
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:07.680
There is a whole host of us that are out there just absolutely struggling, struggling every day.
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:10.720
Is there anything that you'd want them to know?
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:20.079
Um, you know, I um yeah, I mean, just you know, certainly not losing hope, right?
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:23.039
But that's that's easier said than done.
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:37.279
So just trying to think if if you could connect with some of the patients out there, some of the listeners, um, you know, what would you, you know, if they're feelings discouraged or stuck, what would you want them to know?
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:44.480
Yeah, I think I'd want them to know that everything that they're experiencing is valid.
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:53.680
Wherever, whatever the diagnosis is, wherever it falls on any kind of spectrum or whatever is going on, their suffering is real and their symptoms are real.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:01.039
And I know that a lot of times people get really caught up on I think just that aspect of it of is my symptom real?
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:01.680
Is it not real?
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:03.680
Whatever you're experiencing, it is real.
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:06.640
And um, you can always get better.
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:26.319
There's always room for improvement, even if you don't have potentially access to a doctor who is literate in these conditions, or if you feel like you don't have the finances to provide or you know, pay for these different treatments, there are always things that you can do in your life that can help your current state.
00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:40.000
And I think um that goes as to say to not give up because um there is more information coming out now, I think, on this illness as well as Lyme.
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:44.720
And I think that with this, it's able to reach more audiences.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:59.440
And I'm hoping that by, you know, even engaging in this podcast, it gives people an opportunity to just hear these words and hear these terms: Lyme disease or you know, mold exposure, detoxing, lymphatic movement.
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:03.759
Although they seem like they're simple terms, a lot of people don't even really know what this means.
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:10.880
And they're they're very, they're very important in your body's ability to really overcome any type of illness, especially Morgellan.
00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:21.039
So I want to just tell the listeners to not give up and to also give them a little bit of encouragement that they can do this.
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:24.400
They don't necessarily always need to have a practitioner involved.
00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:34.480
I feel like with the way that we have um evolving technology now, a lot of my patients come to me and they have a lot of information on their own.
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:42.079
Um, so they're they're able to find resources online, uh, support groups, potentially, like of course, Reddit threads.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:44.480
I say I stay away a little bit from Chat GPT.
00:33:44.559 --> 00:34:00.319
I don't think it has a lot of good information right now about these current themes, but there are a lot of ways, you know, social media, TikTok, Instagram, you can connect with other folks and you can get more information from other people, even if you feel like you're in an area where you're not able to actually access true care.
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:12.000
But I also want to say that with a caveat of, you know, be careful and use discretion because um there is a lot of misinformation about treatments out there.
00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:15.360
And sometimes they can do more harm for you than they can be helpful.
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:22.079
And so ideally it would, you know, be able to find a provider who can help you or at least guide you.
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:37.519
And um, I know that there are providers, you know, throughout the US that although they might not be able to legally treat you in that state, they can at least offer you counseling or guidance on these topics and ideas so that you're not feeling so stuck or alone in it, which I know can be a really scary place to be.
00:34:37.920 --> 00:35:06.800
The main reason that I'm doing this podcast is, you know, um to try to be a resource to folks that are currently struggling um and um hopefully get some appropriate eyes on us um to just see, you know, see who we are, that we're real, um, and that, you know, we need some some help, support, and some resources in our direction.
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:12.159
Um, that would be really helpful because, you know, right now it's it's speculation.
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:17.679
I mean, I have to say that the groups that I am on in social media, they're they're incredible.
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:18.639
They're incredible.
00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:26.880
The amount of support and guidance that they're able to offer to folks who otherwise are, you know, very marginalized, isolated.
00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:35.360
You know, a lot of folks too, right, have, you know, lost their lost their jobs, lost their homes, lost their families.
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:37.519
Um, and it's heartbreaking.
00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:43.360
And it's, you know, for me, it's um the main reason that I decided to do this.
00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:52.639
I I, you know, we need to be seen, we need to be heard, we need dollars coming in our direction to help, um, to help support us.
00:35:53.039 --> 00:36:05.679
Um, and um so um, so I want to thank you for for joining us today and sharing your own personal experience with um Lyme and Morgellons, more gelens.
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:11.199
Um, and also just, you know, being a fantastic um provider for me.
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:19.280
I can't thank you enough um for um everything that you've done for me on this journey.
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:21.280
I would totally cry.
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:24.239
But I can't I can't thank you enough.
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:30.880
Um I'm you know, I do, I feel like I'm at 80 to 85 percent.
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:40.320
And um I've been at it for two and a half years, and it's a long journey, definitely a long journey.
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:42.800
So I'm just grateful.
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:50.000
I felt like, you know, when I met you, I felt like here's this angel.
00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:59.519
And not only is she my naturopath, but uh ironically, she has Lyme and more gallons as well.
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:09.440
And you know, you were my first person I had met that had the same disease, and you know, there's something to be said about that.
00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:11.840
So I can't thank you enough.
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:13.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:25.039
I think you know, that's that moves me so much because I was just a couple of months into residency and I remember my supervisor was like, hey, I think you, you know, you should see this patient.
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:27.920
I think I think you and her might actually get along.
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:35.119
And then just hearing your story, it was so validating for me in some ways too, because it made me feel not alone.
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:44.159
And our stories are so similar in in how it happened and how it presented, and just so many of the things that are underlying, you know, influencers.
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:48.239
And it felt like as much as it was healing for you, it was healing for me.
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:53.440
Because I feel like, you know, many practitioners go into this because they have had something happen to them in life.
00:37:53.519 --> 00:38:00.000
And so the the patient provider relationship is just as healing for the provider as it is for the patient.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:01.679
So thank you for all that you have done.
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:10.800
And I see how much you have a spark in you right now, and you're just pro you're just going forward with life right now, creating this podcast, trying to reach audiences.
00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:14.719
It it's a it's a great use of free will.
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:16.000
Let's just say that.
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:16.880
Thank you.
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:27.280
Yeah, yeah, I intend, um, I intend for this to be um um very healing for me as well.
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:38.559
And I hope that the audience and listeners um feel the same way that it's a safe place um to come to to uh to be validated, to be heard, to be seen.
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:50.159
Um, and then hopefully we can, you know, again get some dollars in our direction and we can be a good resource for folks um to access care and um other support.
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:54.400
So um so thank you so much for um for joining us today.
00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:55.760
I can't thank you enough.
00:38:56.320 --> 00:38:56.960
You're welcome.
00:38:57.119 --> 00:38:58.320
Oh, thank you for having me.
00:38:58.400 --> 00:38:59.280
This has been incredible.
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:03.840
And yes, just a last word to any listeners, keep pushing through this.
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:20.800
I know it feels extremely scary, and I know that there are times where you don't know if you can continue moving forward, but I want to encourage you that there are many people who are experiencing what you're experiencing, but there are also doctors who are actively trying to help this population of people, myself included.
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:23.679
You're gonna find a lot of other doctors that Britt will interview.
00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:37.199
And we're all trying to help these patients find some sort of stability in their life and also find some sort of a you know healing, healing, miraculous healing opportunity so that they're not suffering anymore.
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:39.920
So yeah, I just want to let you know that we're all here for you.
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:41.199
Thank you.
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:41.920
Thank you.
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:43.199
We appreciate you.
00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:46.800
Thank you so much for tuning in to What the Morgux podcast.
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:48.719
I'm beyond grateful that you're here.
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:51.760
And thank you so much for being a part of the special community.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:40:00.719
To learn more, you can visit us at whatthemorgues.com and you can follow us on Facebook and Instagram at WhatThemorgues podcast.
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:02.960
Thank you so much for tuning in.
