00:00:00 CCW
Waterfall, the CCW podcast.
00:00:04 Mike Keil, CCW
Hello and welcome to Waterfall.
00:00:05 Mike Keil, CCW
It's a water saving podcast brought to you by CCW, the Consumer Council for Water.
00:00:09 Mike Keil, CCW
We're all about saving water, saving money, protecting the environment and combating climate change.
00:00:15 Mike Keil, CCW
Today we are going to look at leakage.
00:00:18 Mike Keil, CCW
We know that is an issue for consumers, but it's absolutely vital.
00:00:23 Mike Keil, CCW
the companies tackle their leakage because it's all part of people's own motivation to save all in their own lives.
00:00:29 Mike Keil, CCW
Companies do their bit and people will be more inclined to do their bit too.
00:00:34 Mike Keil, CCW
And we've got a fab guest on from Seven Trent Water.
00:00:37 Mike Keil, CCW
It's Howard Perry.
00:00:38 Mike Keil, CCW
Hi, Howard.
00:00:39 Mike Keil, CCW
Welcome back to Waterfall.
00:00:40 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Hello, Mike.
00:00:41 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Thanks for having me back again and for such a lovely introduction.
00:00:44 Mike Keil, CCW
Well, last time you were on Howard, you were talking about carbon and you were Seven Trent's energy manager at that point.
00:00:49 Mike Keil, CCW
And now you are a charger of leakage for Seven Trent.
00:00:53 Mike Keil, CCW
You're in charge of reducing leakage, I think it's probably a better way of doing it.
00:00:56 Mike Keil, CCW
Is that correct?
00:00:57 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yes, part of that, yeah.
00:00:58 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
The targeting and strategy of our leakage reduction plan, which is a bit part of the whole thing, because there are many, many people at Severn Trent and the other Walts companies are working on exactly that issue.
00:01:09 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And there's numerous people that live and breathe it, which is fantastic to see.
00:01:12 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's a great environment to work in.
00:01:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There's people really passionate about what we do.
00:01:15 Mike Keil, CCW
Okay, point well made.
00:01:17 Mike Keil, CCW
You're not the only person working on leakage is Severn Trent.
00:01:21 Mike Keil, CCW
Let's just start with some context, though, because we know that in England in particular, and in Wales, there are water resource issues.
00:01:32 Mike Keil, CCW
The Environment Agency produced a report very recently, and we're recording this in July 2025.
00:01:39 Mike Keil, CCW
The Environment Agency last month released their updated long-term framework for water resources.
00:01:44 Mike Keil, CCW
And then that document said, we need to find 5 billion extra litres of water per day by 2055.
00:01:51 Mike Keil, CCW
Now, 5 billion litres of water is just a mind-blowing amount that I don't think anyone can really comprehend what that looks like, feels like.
00:01:59 Mike Keil, CCW
And I don't particularly like the kind of, oh, it's five women listed.
00:02:02 Mike Keil, CCW
I mean, that doesn't really help.
00:02:03 Mike Keil, CCW
Wembley's not for the water.
00:02:05 Mike Keil, CCW
But in that document, it says that we've got to find all this water by 2055.
00:02:11 Mike Keil, CCW
And the 60% of that water we've got to find is going to be found by either reducing leaks or reducing our consumption.
00:02:19 Mike Keil, CCW
So I just want to pick your brains.
00:02:22 Mike Keil, CCW
Do you think that split is fair?
00:02:24 Mike Keil, CCW
You know, should we be just building and lose more water resources?
00:02:27 Mike Keil, CCW
I mean, what's your view on that?
00:02:29 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, great question.
00:02:31 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And it's a similar challenge in water actually to energy, which is one of the reasons I've moved over.
00:02:34 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There's a lot of crossovers.
00:02:35 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's managing supply and demand to make sure there is enough for what customers need.
00:02:40 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We've got that challenge in energy and we've absolutely got that challenge in water as well.
00:02:43 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And one of the big things is to make sure there is enough water for the environment and that's the supply side.
00:02:49 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
One of the reasons why you can't just build your air of that problem is you need to leave enough water in the environment and that's why there is a slant towards leakage consumption.
00:02:59 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
reduction.
00:03:00 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And that is absolutely our job.
00:03:01 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's our network to maintain.
00:03:02 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We know leakage has got to go down.
00:03:04 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
That means we waste less.
00:03:05 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we know we've got to work with customers to use less and fix leaks on their property as well.
00:03:09 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I think that split is about right.
00:03:11 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's one of the things we keep under really close review because different areas are different.
00:03:15 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We do have supply solutions that can protect the environment, get more water out.
00:03:19 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So it is a mix of both.
00:03:20 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But I think broadly that split is about right.
00:03:22 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We've got to go after the waste, the waste and the demand side.
00:03:25 Mike Keil, CCW
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
00:03:27 Mike Keil, CCW
And also when you look at it, new resources
00:03:29 Mike Keil, CCW
It can often take many, many years to develop, if not decades, if you're talking about reservoirs.
00:03:34 Mike Keil, CCW
So actually going at leakage and going at consumption is something that we can all do faster as well.
00:03:40 Mike Keil, CCW
So that can make a big difference too.
00:03:42 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we do plan in those terms.
00:03:43 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We do plan long term.
00:03:45 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So you can plan those schemes and get all the planning in and work out and pretty.
00:03:48 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But as you're right, they take a long time.
00:03:51 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
They're very expensive.
00:03:53 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
They'll give you a permanent solution.
00:03:55 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
One of the issues on leakage and consumption, you've got to be working at it all the time, day
00:03:59 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
in day out 24-7, you've got to keep on top of it.
00:04:02 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Whereas if you build a scheme, you've got to maintain it, but it's there for certain.
00:04:05 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So there is a mix there that we need.
00:04:07 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And supply side investment is definitely one of the answers.
00:04:10 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And that's why our plan and other companies plan has that mix.
00:04:13 Mike Keil, CCW
Yeah, and you can see there is a tendency with engineers, you build something and you've got a thing, you've built a big thing and it's there.
00:04:20 Mike Keil, CCW
And as you said, picking up on your word certainty, you've got that certainty.
00:04:24 Mike Keil, CCW
But I do think with
00:04:26 Mike Keil, CCW
reinforcing messages, we can get, we can lock in people's brains that actually water saving is an easy thing to do, it's the right thing to do, and it's loads of benefits, you know, for the environment, as you mentioned, but also for your pocket from saving money too.
00:04:40 Mike Keil, CCW
So we know leakage is one of these tech issues though in the water sector.
00:04:44 Mike Keil, CCW
So just tell us a bit about what you are doing to reduce leakage.
00:04:49 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, it is a technic issue.
00:04:50 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And I know when I talk to customers and I know when we've done research as well,
00:04:56 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
it tells us that leakage is still in customers' top priorities.
00:04:59 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And even at a time where river water quality has got a lot of attention, so that's shot up the agenda, rightly.
00:05:03 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So leakage is still in that mix.
00:05:05 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And when you're in a hot summer, as we are now, as we sit here in July, it just goes up the agenda again, why are you companies leaking water and what are you doing about it?
00:05:15 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So it is really important to us.
00:05:16 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We know it's a systemic issue.
00:05:17 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We know it's our problem.
00:05:19 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's our network.
00:05:20 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And that's why we've been reducing leakage over time.
00:05:23 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We're way beyond as well the level at which you would say
00:05:26 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
is just the economic level of leakage.
00:05:27 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We're happy there.
00:05:28 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
That's about the right financial day and day cost benefit.
00:05:31 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We want that to go down and down.
00:05:32 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we're below that economic level of leakage.
00:05:36 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And to do that, there's a whole load of work.
00:05:37 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So proactive investment is a chunk of that, like the supply side.
00:05:40 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We've got mains renewal going in this five year period that we're in at the moment that we've just stepped into, 2025 to 2030.
00:05:48 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So, proactive investment in the network.
00:05:51 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But the lion's share of it is operational activity on a day-to-day basis.
00:05:56 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's finding leaks, it's responding to customers when they report leaks, which is great.
00:06:00 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We always want customers to report leaks.
00:06:02 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And then it's getting out and fixing those leaks.
00:06:04 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And a big chunk of how we've changed over the last few years and got to lowest levels of leakage, which is where we are at the moment, is by stepping up the number of those fines and repairs that we do.
00:06:14 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we've got a really, I'd call it, slick operation of
00:06:17 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
targeting the leakage, using the data, getting people out to find it and raise the jobs, getting the jobs out to fix the leak, which can be a quick simple fix.
00:06:26 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And sometimes there's a bit more complex dig required.
00:06:29 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And that volume of leak repairs combined with a bunch of other measures is what's caused down to lower level of leakage, which is
00:06:34 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
how we outturned at the end of our financial year.
00:06:37 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So yeah, there's a whole lot of work that goes into that.
00:06:39 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But in a nutshell, proactive work, finding and fixing leaks and managing our network carefully and managing pressure on the network is another part of that.
00:06:47 Mike Keil, CCW
And so that makes sense.
00:06:49 Mike Keil, CCW
You replace your mains proactively.
00:06:51 Mike Keil, CCW
That makes a lot of sense.
00:06:53 Mike Keil, CCW
And then find and fix, again,
00:06:56 Mike Keil, CCW
Makes sense.
00:06:57 Mike Keil, CCW
So there's finding fixes, that's people ringing in and reporting leaks, or is it your people going around with?
00:07:02 Mike Keil, CCW
I keep hearing stories of sniffer dogs and satellites and drones, and goodness, those oils, Uri Geller finding leaks.
00:07:09 Mike Keil, CCW
What's that?
00:07:10 Mike Keil, CCW
Well, what is your approach to that?
00:07:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, we'll try anything.
00:07:14 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And so we love customers to report leaks and they do.
00:07:16 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we get those regularly.
00:07:18 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
People will ring in or report through the website, here's the leak, here's the location.
00:07:21 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Great.
00:07:22 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We will get some out to check it, pinpoint it and fix it.
00:07:25 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we love those and that will be a constant stream of work because the network is always generating leaks as things change, as the ground moves, as we have free store events in the winters.
00:07:35 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And as you know, you have rd traffic or building going on that can cause leaks in the network.
00:07:39 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So those are visible leaks.
00:07:40 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
They're the easy ones if you like.
00:07:42 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
The really tricky
00:07:43 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
are the ones underground and more difficult to detect.
00:07:46 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we've got a whole load of professional people who've been doing that, some of them for decades that are very experienced in doing that.
00:07:53 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So they'll use acoustic techniques, but really I was just listening to the pipe to try and pinpoint it, combined with data from flow loggers and what we call correlators, which is where you put a few loggers out and pinpoints where the leak is, and then some more out there technology.
00:08:06 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we're just commissioning some satellite surveys.
00:08:09 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
in an area where we've got a particular challenge in July as we sit.
00:08:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So that's one area of generating points of interest.
00:08:17 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we'll try various different things.
00:08:18 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Drones is another thing that has been used, but it's the core activity of people being out and using that data technology, using their experience really to find the links.
00:08:27 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
That's the main part of what we do.
00:08:29 Mike Keil, CCW
We talk about smart meters quite a lot on waterfall and the benefits to people from having a smart meter in terms of raising awareness of consumption, but also
00:08:37 Mike Keil, CCW
leaks on customer side as well, on the pipe that customers are responsible for.
00:08:42 Mike Keil, CCW
Do you find smart meters helping in your patch too?
00:08:47 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Definitely.
00:08:48 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah.
00:08:48 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And I'm glad you mentioned that because that's another area where we accept I'm trying to do a load more metering over the current five year period that we're in.
00:08:55 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So yeah, your meter will tell you if there is a leak or a continuous use on a customer property.
00:09:01 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we've had meters in place for a long time.
00:09:03 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
You can go and check that meter.
00:09:05 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Or a smart meter then enables you to do is centrally pick up the data on a day by day, hour by hour basis and see what that really looks like and pick it up much quicker.
00:09:14 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So they are very helpful.
00:09:15 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And
00:09:16 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
One of the things I always remind people when I speak to them about is that leakage number does include custom side leaks.
00:09:20 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's leaks on customers' pipes that we don't own, but we are as invested as anyone in finding those and trying to get those fixed and help customers to fix those.
00:09:28 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And a smart knee really helps you to do that.
00:09:31 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And they come in various forms.
00:09:32 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Sometimes they're very tricky underground pipe work from the road into your property.
00:09:36 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we'll often help customers to find those because they're harder.
00:09:40 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Sometimes they're in the property.
00:09:41 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's something as simple as a leaking toilet that you just need to fix and get a plumber to fix, which is quite
00:09:46 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
straightforward when you get down to it.
00:09:47 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And sometimes they're a bit more complex usage patterns that people might be able to manage it a different way.
00:09:52 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So smart meters tell you a huge amount and they help us find customers at least quicker.
00:09:55 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So they are good.
00:09:56 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
They're very helpful.
00:09:58 Mike Keil, CCW
Yeah, no, it's good.
00:09:59 Mike Keil, CCW
And then there's a lot of potential with smart meters.
00:10:01 Mike Keil, CCW
I think smart water meters to help people understand what they do or what in their own home.
00:10:07 Mike Keil, CCW
I mean, we said already that this is a totemic issue.
00:10:09 Mike Keil, CCW
Do you think your customers
00:10:11 Mike Keil, CCW
I believe you're doing enough on leakage.
00:10:13 Mike Keil, CCW
I mean, do you, do you, what sort of feedback do you get from your customers?
00:10:17 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, good, question.
00:10:19 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So, I think we're doing enough and we communicate loads on what we're doing.
00:10:23 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
People's individual experience makes a big difference, doesn't it?
00:10:26 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So, I've been looking at, I've looked at customer issues this morning actually, where someone's reported a leak and yet it's not been repaired in, you know, 5-10 days and they would expect us to come out straight away.
00:10:36 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
What is sometimes going on there is we're prioritising, so making sure the resource that we've got is going to the biggest, most
00:10:41 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
important leaks as we don't always see that because we see the leak that is in front of them.
00:10:46 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But nevertheless, fixing those visible leaks quickly is really important for credibility and keeping customers informed.
00:10:52 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we always want to do those quickly so we could get better there.
00:10:56 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So anyone who's anyone who's seen a leak report it, absolutely do chase this day and we want to fix that as quick as you do.
00:11:02 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Sometimes there's a resource thing going on in the background, but that's for us to try and get better and more efficient, isn't it?
00:11:06 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I think people's individual experience makes a big difference.
00:11:11 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I mean, the other
00:11:11 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Another thing I'd say is, we, so they're a little...
00:11:15 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
They're also very, very big leaks.
00:11:17 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So people will have seen in the news.
00:11:18 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There was one I was at down in Gloucestershire the other day.
00:11:21 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We had some very big bursts.
00:11:23 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We absolutely want those fixed as soon as you.
00:11:25 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It was like the.
00:11:26 Mike Keil, CCW
House was getting absolutely sprayed with water.
00:11:28 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, that will that will be some pictures of that.
00:11:31 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It was quite spectacular.
00:11:32 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It was spectacular.
00:11:34 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So that's one of our major mains, those we are on absolutely like a shot and we need to make sure we've got customers on supply.
00:11:41 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There's a lot of complex network arrangement.
00:11:43 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There's a huge amount of stuff goes on around the region and in the control centre to manage those events and get them fixed as soon as possible.
00:11:49 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think that one went in the morning and was fixed at some point in the late evening.
00:11:53 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So it's an example of how we could get on those really big complex bursts really quickly.
00:11:58 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And it's those around
00:11:58 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
for any period of time, we'd have a vast amount of leakage.
00:12:00 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So getting the big leaks really, really quick and getting the smaller leaks as quick as we can over a period of days is how we tend to operate.
00:12:08 Mike Keil, CCW
Do you have any kind of customer commitment as to how quickly you fix a visible leak?
00:12:13 Mike Keil, CCW
Because I think you're quite, you're quite right.
00:12:15 Mike Keil, CCW
Logically say you want to fix the ones that are gushing water and you live in terms of how much water you're losing from a particular leak.
00:12:23 Mike Keil, CCW
But the dribble load that may be running for quite a while,
00:12:27 Mike Keil, CCW
if that has a negative impact on individuals or communities, then clearly that's not good from a perception point of view and a motivation point of view.
00:12:35 Mike Keil, CCW
Whilst that's not wasting lots of water, it's still having a very negative impact on people.
00:12:44 Mike Keil, CCW
Yeah, so do you have any kind of, do you have a target SLA of service, sorry, SLA, I'm doing it now, service well agreed, commitment to customers.
00:12:54 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, we do.
00:12:55 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And I wasn't going to get to the ways of what those are, because you get into acrolude territory and all that.
00:13:00 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
What I would say, which I think is really important, is we want to fix all the leaks.
00:13:06 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So you may say, oh, that's only little, we'll leave that, we'll drop that off the list.
00:13:11 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But leaks grow, and even small leaks add up to 10s, hundreds, thousands of litres very, very quickly.
00:13:17 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we want all of them, basically, and everyone we find will go on the system and it will get fixed at some point.
00:13:24 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
The only reason they tend to drag on is where it is a customs property, so it's not ours.
00:13:30 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
They tend to last a bit longer.
00:13:32 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
If it's our network, we'll get on and repair it.
00:13:35 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And there is resource growing on the background.
00:13:37 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So hot weather or a weeter outbreak, when we get a freeze or we get a massive spike in leaks, it may take us longer to get to those small ones.
00:13:44 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But we want them all and we'll fix them all.
00:13:45 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we want that to be days.
00:13:47 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We don't want that to be weeks and months.
00:13:49 Mike Keil, CCW
OK, it's a clear message: leaks, we're coming for you.
00:13:52 Mike Keil, CCW
I get that.
00:13:53 Mike Keil, CCW
You've you've dodged the customer commitment question about how quickly would you want to act on a visible leak?
00:13:59 Mike Keil, CCW
Do you have any come back to that then?
00:14:01 Mike Keil, CCW
So, what is your commitment?
00:14:03 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think we do, yes.
00:14:04 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I have to check that.
00:14:05 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I don't know off the top of my head.
00:14:07 Mike Keil, CCW
I suppose where I was going with this actually is that if I report a leak, just taking it from a point of view of just an average punter, if I reported a leak and you got in touch and said, actually, we're not going to get to this for five days because we'll lose all the big stuff going on, I think I'd be okay with that.
00:14:24 Mike Keil, CCW
Do you know what I mean?
00:14:25 Mike Keil, CCW
Like as a punter, the communication, sorry, the point I'm very badly making here is the communication back to customers is really important here.
00:14:32 Mike Keil, CCW
Do you cause that loop when people report a leak?
00:14:35 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, that and I is our aim.
00:14:36 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, keeping the customer informed, we call that ACI if you have another lovely...
00:14:41 Mike Keil, CCW
Oh, here we go.
00:14:42 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, keep your customer informed, really, really important.
00:14:44 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We know people get annoyed if they don't get informed about what's going on.
00:14:47 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I mean, interestingly, she used to choose a personal example.
00:14:50 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
When I started in this job a couple of years ago, my wife reported the leak down the road, and that was just a coincidence, really.
00:14:56 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But it was interesting to see how the process worked.
00:14:59 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Her feedback was we kept her over informed about
00:15:02 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
about what we were doing because you were getting texts.
00:15:04 Mike Keil, CCW
That's because you were going over and telling you.
00:15:07 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And that wasn't just me.
00:15:08 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I was telling her as well.
00:15:09 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So maybe it was my bit that tipped her over the edge.
00:15:12 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But yeah, you're right.
00:15:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Keep a customer informed.
00:15:14 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We want to keep them informed.
00:15:16 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We'll do that by text.
00:15:17 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We'll do it via call if that's what people want.
00:15:19 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So that people get resolution on that leak you reported is fixed.
00:15:24 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we know customers get an order and that takes longer.
00:15:26 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And it's perfectly understandable, isn't it?
00:15:28 Mike Keil, CCW
Yeah, but I do think though, from a customer point of view, a people point of view,
00:15:32 Mike Keil, CCW
that people tend to be quite reasonable and rational, but they do want to be, they do want to be kept informed, then you're right, that's a sensible frequency.
00:15:42 Mike Keil, CCW
And if they are informed, then I think people would understand more.
00:15:45 Mike Keil, CCW
It's where people are kept in the dark and they don't know where things are going.
00:15:48 Mike Keil, CCW
I think that is what really angers them.
00:15:50 Mike Keil, CCW
So it's good to hear the people informed.
00:15:54 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, personally, I'd much prefer that attitude.
00:15:56 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
That's a great public spirited attitude.
00:15:59 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
If you're spotting a leak and reporting it and you want it to be repaired, brilliant.
00:16:03 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And if people are approaching that in their daily lives, they want to fix leaks on their property, they want to be a bit wiser with their water use.
00:16:10 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
fantastic.
00:16:11 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
That helps them.
00:16:12 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It helps everybody else.
00:16:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It helps us.
00:16:14 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It helps us make sure there's enough water and it keeps building.
00:16:16 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So that is the attitude I want.
00:16:18 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I'd much prefer that than an apathy where people aren't reporting them or they don't want to hear back.
00:16:22 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I get that.
00:16:23 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And that is that is good.
00:16:24 Mike Keil, CCW
Yeah, and I think by keeping them informed and fixing those leaks, that is one way of many that we can help create trust between
00:16:35 Mike Keil, CCW
of water companies and their customers.
00:16:36 Mike Keil, CCW
And as we know, trust is not where it should be or where it needs to be.
00:16:40 Mike Keil, CCW
And actually, reporting leaks are making that experience good for most customers, but not your wife, is one way that you can help enhance the reputation.
00:16:52 Mike Keil, CCW
I think that is important because I mean, I know companies quite often say, well, you know, we've beaten our target in this, that and the other.
00:16:58 Mike Keil, CCW
But I think that gets blown out of the water, literally, excuse the pun.
00:17:02 Mike Keil, CCW
if they've seen a visible leak running and run it, because they'll just go, yeah, you say you've been your target and we've already seen the target, but I've just seen this leak for two weeks and I'm really crossed and I didn't hear anything about it.
00:17:16 Mike Keil, CCW
So I do think we've got to be careful something about how we, what companies explain what they're doing, because lived experience, I think, Trump's just quoting a big
00:17:25 Mike Keil, CCW
massive target that you're exceeding.
00:17:28 Mike Keil, CCW
Absolutely, yeah.
00:17:30 Mike Keil, CCW
I think one of the things that's I think really important for us to recognise is that you doing your bit as a water company really influences the motivation of individuals to do their bit in their own daily lives to save water.
00:17:45 Mike Keil, CCW
Now, one of the things that we're always back, you know, about waterfalls, all these ways to save water, and we're very keen to hear other people's views and top tips.
00:17:55 Mike Keil, CCW
And I think you're just the person to share your top tips on how to save water.
00:18:02 Mike Keil, CCW
So what would you recommend that your customers do?
00:18:04 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, and really like you for it.
00:18:07 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think that's a great message to share with customers.
00:18:09 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And it helps people save money as well, doesn't it, as people move to more meter billing?
00:18:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So many, many benefits of doing that.
00:18:15 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I mean, we're sat here in July, so we've got a particular pinch point.
00:18:19 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I think we're using lots of water in summer.
00:18:21 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And that means front of mind for us is
00:18:24 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
What are those big uses of water in summer that you really could avoid?
00:18:27 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So closed pipes, swimming pools, those things use a massive amount of water in a short space of time and it can affect supply and pressure in the areas as well as that long-term supply demand system be told by.
00:18:39 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I'd ever think again about using those.
00:18:41 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
If you can reuse pool water, if you can use a watering can, you can leave your lawn to go yellow.
00:18:46 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think once you've done the gardening experts will say that's fine, it'll bounce back.
00:18:50 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
You don't need to keep it fresh green all the time.
00:18:53 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think those are some big uses.
00:18:54 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think shower times as well, the one we often talk about.
00:18:57 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So if you can keep that to a minimum, we'd love people to shower and keep clean, that's obviously really important, but it makes a massive difference if you're in there for 40 minutes or you're in there for the tent.
00:19:08 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I think shower times are a massive influencing thing and a garden and an outdoor use, they're two things that really come to mind.
00:19:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And then the final one is, and this is because they predominantly work on leakage, if you've got a leak, a leaking toilet, a leak on your property, fix that, it'll add up to a lot more than you were using some of those other uses.
00:19:24 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
over time, so just get it fixed with them quickly and we can often help with that.
00:19:27 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So have a look on our website, there's plenty of ways so we can help.
00:19:31 Mike Keil, CCW
As that's what you'd recommend, if people want to find out more, go to your website.
00:19:37 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yes, so there's stuff on there about how you can check that you've got a leak and what the volume is.
00:19:41 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There's some indications to where you can find approved plumbers.
00:19:44 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So there's a list out there of people that will do that work for you on your property.
00:19:49 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we do also offer what's called home water efficiency audits.
00:19:52 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Most of the companies offer these.
00:19:53 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So if you think you've got a problem or you think you'd like some information on water use in your property, we can send people out and they'll have a look around and talk to you and maybe put some water saving products in as well.
00:20:04 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And they can fix some simple leaks if they spot them well on that.
00:20:07 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Ultimately, that's your responsibility, but ways we can help.
00:20:09 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Have a look at the website.
00:20:10 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think our company offers something very similar.
00:20:12 Mike Keil, CCW
Yeah, we can put the link to your website in the show notes.
00:20:16 Mike Keil, CCW
So that's really good.
00:20:17 Mike Keil, CCW
And our final question is, what do you use, Howard?
00:20:20 Mike Keil, CCW
What's your personal use?
00:20:22 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Great question.
00:20:23 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So last time I was on, you'll remember how to estimate.
00:20:25 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
You'll remember.
00:20:26 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
No one, no listener will ever remember that they're going to listen back, are they?
00:20:29 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But I had to make an estimate.
00:20:30 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I have got.
00:20:31 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
How dare you, How dare you, Howard?
00:20:32 Mike Keil, CCW
We've got very loyal listeners who's listening back?
00:20:36 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Good.
00:20:36 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
he may remember.
00:20:37 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think I was in the 90s last time from my estimate.
00:20:40 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I know precisely now because we have got a smart meter and I'd look on a regular basis.
00:20:44 Mike Keil, CCW
How's it going on?
00:20:45 Mike Keil, CCW
Your whole career would be lacking in any credibility if you didn't have a beater being the leakage manager.
00:20:52 Mike Keil, CCW
Sure.
00:20:53 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So yeah, absolutely.
00:20:55 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I checked yesterday, 107 litres per person per day we're on, which is...
00:20:59 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, our average is 135, something like that.
00:21:02 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we want to see that come down through all the stuff I've talked about.
00:21:05 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I like to think I'm showing good practice, although that's really the only one.
00:21:09 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There's always stuff that I can do better.
00:21:11 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I don't want, was there 107, did you say?
00:21:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
107, yeah, litres per per person per.
00:21:17 Mike Keil, CCW
Below the 2050 target.
00:21:19 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I'm quite pleased.
00:21:19 Mike Keil, CCW
Of 110 litres A day.
00:21:21 Mike Keil, CCW
So, you know, I don't think I still think you should be beating yourself off about being below the 2050 target, you know, only twenty-five years early.
00:21:31 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Oh, yeah, beating my family up anyway, well, you know, telling them off.
00:21:35 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I don't, do that.
00:21:36 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think that's, yeah, that's a good amount.
00:21:37 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And what I would say is that's not a, that's not once wearing a hair shirt and never wearing showers and all that.
00:21:42 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
That's normal stuff.
00:21:43 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
You can get them to that level, I think, pretty easily.
00:21:45 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And if all the customers did, we
00:21:47 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
we'd be in a great spot environmentally.
00:21:48 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There'd be enough water in the environment and enough water to go around.
00:21:51 Mike Keil, CCW
I think that's a really strong message because it is, there's, it's not a great sacrifice.
00:21:57 Mike Keil, CCW
In fact, I would argue it's not a sacrifice at all to say water.
00:21:59 Mike Keil, CCW
It's just about a few simple steps, a few simple change of mindset of stuff.
00:22:02 Mike Keil, CCW
So you're absolutely right.
00:22:04 Mike Keil, CCW
Howard, it's great having you on.
00:22:05 Mike Keil, CCW
Thank you for touching us all about what you guys are up to on what is a tricky issue in the views of consumers.
00:22:13 Mike Keil, CCW
So I'll be sure to be reporting in my leaks as soon as I see them.
00:22:18 Mike Keil, CCW
But I'd like to phone in.
00:22:20 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Pleasure.
00:22:20 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Thanks for having me.
Waterfall, the CCW podcast.
00:00:04 Mike Keil, CCW
Hello and welcome to Waterfall.
00:00:05 Mike Keil, CCW
It's a water saving podcast brought to you by CCW, the Consumer Council for Water.
00:00:09 Mike Keil, CCW
We're all about saving water, saving money, protecting the environment and combating climate change.
00:00:15 Mike Keil, CCW
Today we are going to look at leakage.
00:00:18 Mike Keil, CCW
We know that is an issue for consumers, but it's absolutely vital.
00:00:23 Mike Keil, CCW
the companies tackle their leakage because it's all part of people's own motivation to save all in their own lives.
00:00:29 Mike Keil, CCW
Companies do their bit and people will be more inclined to do their bit too.
00:00:34 Mike Keil, CCW
And we've got a fab guest on from Seven Trent Water.
00:00:37 Mike Keil, CCW
It's Howard Perry.
00:00:38 Mike Keil, CCW
Hi, Howard.
00:00:39 Mike Keil, CCW
Welcome back to Waterfall.
00:00:40 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Hello, Mike.
00:00:41 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Thanks for having me back again and for such a lovely introduction.
00:00:44 Mike Keil, CCW
Well, last time you were on Howard, you were talking about carbon and you were Seven Trent's energy manager at that point.
00:00:49 Mike Keil, CCW
And now you are a charger of leakage for Seven Trent.
00:00:53 Mike Keil, CCW
You're in charge of reducing leakage, I think it's probably a better way of doing it.
00:00:56 Mike Keil, CCW
Is that correct?
00:00:57 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yes, part of that, yeah.
00:00:58 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
The targeting and strategy of our leakage reduction plan, which is a bit part of the whole thing, because there are many, many people at Severn Trent and the other Walts companies are working on exactly that issue.
00:01:09 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And there's numerous people that live and breathe it, which is fantastic to see.
00:01:12 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's a great environment to work in.
00:01:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There's people really passionate about what we do.
00:01:15 Mike Keil, CCW
Okay, point well made.
00:01:17 Mike Keil, CCW
You're not the only person working on leakage is Severn Trent.
00:01:21 Mike Keil, CCW
Let's just start with some context, though, because we know that in England in particular, and in Wales, there are water resource issues.
00:01:32 Mike Keil, CCW
The Environment Agency produced a report very recently, and we're recording this in July 2025.
00:01:39 Mike Keil, CCW
The Environment Agency last month released their updated long-term framework for water resources.
00:01:44 Mike Keil, CCW
And then that document said, we need to find 5 billion extra litres of water per day by 2055.
00:01:51 Mike Keil, CCW
Now, 5 billion litres of water is just a mind-blowing amount that I don't think anyone can really comprehend what that looks like, feels like.
00:01:59 Mike Keil, CCW
And I don't particularly like the kind of, oh, it's five women listed.
00:02:02 Mike Keil, CCW
I mean, that doesn't really help.
00:02:03 Mike Keil, CCW
Wembley's not for the water.
00:02:05 Mike Keil, CCW
But in that document, it says that we've got to find all this water by 2055.
00:02:11 Mike Keil, CCW
And the 60% of that water we've got to find is going to be found by either reducing leaks or reducing our consumption.
00:02:19 Mike Keil, CCW
So I just want to pick your brains.
00:02:22 Mike Keil, CCW
Do you think that split is fair?
00:02:24 Mike Keil, CCW
You know, should we be just building and lose more water resources?
00:02:27 Mike Keil, CCW
I mean, what's your view on that?
00:02:29 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, great question.
00:02:31 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And it's a similar challenge in water actually to energy, which is one of the reasons I've moved over.
00:02:34 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There's a lot of crossovers.
00:02:35 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's managing supply and demand to make sure there is enough for what customers need.
00:02:40 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We've got that challenge in energy and we've absolutely got that challenge in water as well.
00:02:43 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And one of the big things is to make sure there is enough water for the environment and that's the supply side.
00:02:49 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
One of the reasons why you can't just build your air of that problem is you need to leave enough water in the environment and that's why there is a slant towards leakage consumption.
00:02:59 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
reduction.
00:03:00 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And that is absolutely our job.
00:03:01 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's our network to maintain.
00:03:02 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We know leakage has got to go down.
00:03:04 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
That means we waste less.
00:03:05 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we know we've got to work with customers to use less and fix leaks on their property as well.
00:03:09 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I think that split is about right.
00:03:11 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's one of the things we keep under really close review because different areas are different.
00:03:15 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We do have supply solutions that can protect the environment, get more water out.
00:03:19 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So it is a mix of both.
00:03:20 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But I think broadly that split is about right.
00:03:22 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We've got to go after the waste, the waste and the demand side.
00:03:25 Mike Keil, CCW
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
00:03:27 Mike Keil, CCW
And also when you look at it, new resources
00:03:29 Mike Keil, CCW
It can often take many, many years to develop, if not decades, if you're talking about reservoirs.
00:03:34 Mike Keil, CCW
So actually going at leakage and going at consumption is something that we can all do faster as well.
00:03:40 Mike Keil, CCW
So that can make a big difference too.
00:03:42 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we do plan in those terms.
00:03:43 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We do plan long term.
00:03:45 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So you can plan those schemes and get all the planning in and work out and pretty.
00:03:48 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But as you're right, they take a long time.
00:03:51 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
They're very expensive.
00:03:53 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
They'll give you a permanent solution.
00:03:55 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
One of the issues on leakage and consumption, you've got to be working at it all the time, day
00:03:59 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
in day out 24-7, you've got to keep on top of it.
00:04:02 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Whereas if you build a scheme, you've got to maintain it, but it's there for certain.
00:04:05 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So there is a mix there that we need.
00:04:07 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And supply side investment is definitely one of the answers.
00:04:10 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And that's why our plan and other companies plan has that mix.
00:04:13 Mike Keil, CCW
Yeah, and you can see there is a tendency with engineers, you build something and you've got a thing, you've built a big thing and it's there.
00:04:20 Mike Keil, CCW
And as you said, picking up on your word certainty, you've got that certainty.
00:04:24 Mike Keil, CCW
But I do think with
00:04:26 Mike Keil, CCW
reinforcing messages, we can get, we can lock in people's brains that actually water saving is an easy thing to do, it's the right thing to do, and it's loads of benefits, you know, for the environment, as you mentioned, but also for your pocket from saving money too.
00:04:40 Mike Keil, CCW
So we know leakage is one of these tech issues though in the water sector.
00:04:44 Mike Keil, CCW
So just tell us a bit about what you are doing to reduce leakage.
00:04:49 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, it is a technic issue.
00:04:50 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And I know when I talk to customers and I know when we've done research as well,
00:04:56 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
it tells us that leakage is still in customers' top priorities.
00:04:59 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And even at a time where river water quality has got a lot of attention, so that's shot up the agenda, rightly.
00:05:03 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So leakage is still in that mix.
00:05:05 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And when you're in a hot summer, as we are now, as we sit here in July, it just goes up the agenda again, why are you companies leaking water and what are you doing about it?
00:05:15 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So it is really important to us.
00:05:16 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We know it's a systemic issue.
00:05:17 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We know it's our problem.
00:05:19 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's our network.
00:05:20 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And that's why we've been reducing leakage over time.
00:05:23 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We're way beyond as well the level at which you would say
00:05:26 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
is just the economic level of leakage.
00:05:27 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We're happy there.
00:05:28 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
That's about the right financial day and day cost benefit.
00:05:31 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We want that to go down and down.
00:05:32 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we're below that economic level of leakage.
00:05:36 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And to do that, there's a whole load of work.
00:05:37 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So proactive investment is a chunk of that, like the supply side.
00:05:40 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We've got mains renewal going in this five year period that we're in at the moment that we've just stepped into, 2025 to 2030.
00:05:48 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So, proactive investment in the network.
00:05:51 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But the lion's share of it is operational activity on a day-to-day basis.
00:05:56 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's finding leaks, it's responding to customers when they report leaks, which is great.
00:06:00 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We always want customers to report leaks.
00:06:02 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And then it's getting out and fixing those leaks.
00:06:04 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And a big chunk of how we've changed over the last few years and got to lowest levels of leakage, which is where we are at the moment, is by stepping up the number of those fines and repairs that we do.
00:06:14 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we've got a really, I'd call it, slick operation of
00:06:17 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
targeting the leakage, using the data, getting people out to find it and raise the jobs, getting the jobs out to fix the leak, which can be a quick simple fix.
00:06:26 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And sometimes there's a bit more complex dig required.
00:06:29 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And that volume of leak repairs combined with a bunch of other measures is what's caused down to lower level of leakage, which is
00:06:34 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
how we outturned at the end of our financial year.
00:06:37 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So yeah, there's a whole lot of work that goes into that.
00:06:39 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But in a nutshell, proactive work, finding and fixing leaks and managing our network carefully and managing pressure on the network is another part of that.
00:06:47 Mike Keil, CCW
And so that makes sense.
00:06:49 Mike Keil, CCW
You replace your mains proactively.
00:06:51 Mike Keil, CCW
That makes a lot of sense.
00:06:53 Mike Keil, CCW
And then find and fix, again,
00:06:56 Mike Keil, CCW
Makes sense.
00:06:57 Mike Keil, CCW
So there's finding fixes, that's people ringing in and reporting leaks, or is it your people going around with?
00:07:02 Mike Keil, CCW
I keep hearing stories of sniffer dogs and satellites and drones, and goodness, those oils, Uri Geller finding leaks.
00:07:09 Mike Keil, CCW
What's that?
00:07:10 Mike Keil, CCW
Well, what is your approach to that?
00:07:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, we'll try anything.
00:07:14 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And so we love customers to report leaks and they do.
00:07:16 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we get those regularly.
00:07:18 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
People will ring in or report through the website, here's the leak, here's the location.
00:07:21 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Great.
00:07:22 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We will get some out to check it, pinpoint it and fix it.
00:07:25 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we love those and that will be a constant stream of work because the network is always generating leaks as things change, as the ground moves, as we have free store events in the winters.
00:07:35 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And as you know, you have rd traffic or building going on that can cause leaks in the network.
00:07:39 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So those are visible leaks.
00:07:40 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
They're the easy ones if you like.
00:07:42 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
The really tricky
00:07:43 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
are the ones underground and more difficult to detect.
00:07:46 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we've got a whole load of professional people who've been doing that, some of them for decades that are very experienced in doing that.
00:07:53 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So they'll use acoustic techniques, but really I was just listening to the pipe to try and pinpoint it, combined with data from flow loggers and what we call correlators, which is where you put a few loggers out and pinpoints where the leak is, and then some more out there technology.
00:08:06 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we're just commissioning some satellite surveys.
00:08:09 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
in an area where we've got a particular challenge in July as we sit.
00:08:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So that's one area of generating points of interest.
00:08:17 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we'll try various different things.
00:08:18 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Drones is another thing that has been used, but it's the core activity of people being out and using that data technology, using their experience really to find the links.
00:08:27 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
That's the main part of what we do.
00:08:29 Mike Keil, CCW
We talk about smart meters quite a lot on waterfall and the benefits to people from having a smart meter in terms of raising awareness of consumption, but also
00:08:37 Mike Keil, CCW
leaks on customer side as well, on the pipe that customers are responsible for.
00:08:42 Mike Keil, CCW
Do you find smart meters helping in your patch too?
00:08:47 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Definitely.
00:08:48 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah.
00:08:48 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And I'm glad you mentioned that because that's another area where we accept I'm trying to do a load more metering over the current five year period that we're in.
00:08:55 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So yeah, your meter will tell you if there is a leak or a continuous use on a customer property.
00:09:01 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we've had meters in place for a long time.
00:09:03 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
You can go and check that meter.
00:09:05 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Or a smart meter then enables you to do is centrally pick up the data on a day by day, hour by hour basis and see what that really looks like and pick it up much quicker.
00:09:14 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So they are very helpful.
00:09:15 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And
00:09:16 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
One of the things I always remind people when I speak to them about is that leakage number does include custom side leaks.
00:09:20 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's leaks on customers' pipes that we don't own, but we are as invested as anyone in finding those and trying to get those fixed and help customers to fix those.
00:09:28 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And a smart knee really helps you to do that.
00:09:31 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And they come in various forms.
00:09:32 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Sometimes they're very tricky underground pipe work from the road into your property.
00:09:36 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we'll often help customers to find those because they're harder.
00:09:40 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Sometimes they're in the property.
00:09:41 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It's something as simple as a leaking toilet that you just need to fix and get a plumber to fix, which is quite
00:09:46 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
straightforward when you get down to it.
00:09:47 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And sometimes they're a bit more complex usage patterns that people might be able to manage it a different way.
00:09:52 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So smart meters tell you a huge amount and they help us find customers at least quicker.
00:09:55 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So they are good.
00:09:56 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
They're very helpful.
00:09:58 Mike Keil, CCW
Yeah, no, it's good.
00:09:59 Mike Keil, CCW
And then there's a lot of potential with smart meters.
00:10:01 Mike Keil, CCW
I think smart water meters to help people understand what they do or what in their own home.
00:10:07 Mike Keil, CCW
I mean, we said already that this is a totemic issue.
00:10:09 Mike Keil, CCW
Do you think your customers
00:10:11 Mike Keil, CCW
I believe you're doing enough on leakage.
00:10:13 Mike Keil, CCW
I mean, do you, do you, what sort of feedback do you get from your customers?
00:10:17 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, good, question.
00:10:19 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So, I think we're doing enough and we communicate loads on what we're doing.
00:10:23 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
People's individual experience makes a big difference, doesn't it?
00:10:26 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So, I've been looking at, I've looked at customer issues this morning actually, where someone's reported a leak and yet it's not been repaired in, you know, 5-10 days and they would expect us to come out straight away.
00:10:36 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
What is sometimes going on there is we're prioritising, so making sure the resource that we've got is going to the biggest, most
00:10:41 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
important leaks as we don't always see that because we see the leak that is in front of them.
00:10:46 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But nevertheless, fixing those visible leaks quickly is really important for credibility and keeping customers informed.
00:10:52 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we always want to do those quickly so we could get better there.
00:10:56 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So anyone who's anyone who's seen a leak report it, absolutely do chase this day and we want to fix that as quick as you do.
00:11:02 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Sometimes there's a resource thing going on in the background, but that's for us to try and get better and more efficient, isn't it?
00:11:06 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I think people's individual experience makes a big difference.
00:11:11 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I mean, the other
00:11:11 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Another thing I'd say is, we, so they're a little...
00:11:15 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
They're also very, very big leaks.
00:11:17 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So people will have seen in the news.
00:11:18 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There was one I was at down in Gloucestershire the other day.
00:11:21 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We had some very big bursts.
00:11:23 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We absolutely want those fixed as soon as you.
00:11:25 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It was like the.
00:11:26 Mike Keil, CCW
House was getting absolutely sprayed with water.
00:11:28 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, that will that will be some pictures of that.
00:11:31 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It was quite spectacular.
00:11:32 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It was spectacular.
00:11:34 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So that's one of our major mains, those we are on absolutely like a shot and we need to make sure we've got customers on supply.
00:11:41 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There's a lot of complex network arrangement.
00:11:43 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There's a huge amount of stuff goes on around the region and in the control centre to manage those events and get them fixed as soon as possible.
00:11:49 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think that one went in the morning and was fixed at some point in the late evening.
00:11:53 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So it's an example of how we could get on those really big complex bursts really quickly.
00:11:58 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And it's those around
00:11:58 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
for any period of time, we'd have a vast amount of leakage.
00:12:00 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So getting the big leaks really, really quick and getting the smaller leaks as quick as we can over a period of days is how we tend to operate.
00:12:08 Mike Keil, CCW
Do you have any kind of customer commitment as to how quickly you fix a visible leak?
00:12:13 Mike Keil, CCW
Because I think you're quite, you're quite right.
00:12:15 Mike Keil, CCW
Logically say you want to fix the ones that are gushing water and you live in terms of how much water you're losing from a particular leak.
00:12:23 Mike Keil, CCW
But the dribble load that may be running for quite a while,
00:12:27 Mike Keil, CCW
if that has a negative impact on individuals or communities, then clearly that's not good from a perception point of view and a motivation point of view.
00:12:35 Mike Keil, CCW
Whilst that's not wasting lots of water, it's still having a very negative impact on people.
00:12:44 Mike Keil, CCW
Yeah, so do you have any kind of, do you have a target SLA of service, sorry, SLA, I'm doing it now, service well agreed, commitment to customers.
00:12:54 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, we do.
00:12:55 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And I wasn't going to get to the ways of what those are, because you get into acrolude territory and all that.
00:13:00 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
What I would say, which I think is really important, is we want to fix all the leaks.
00:13:06 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So you may say, oh, that's only little, we'll leave that, we'll drop that off the list.
00:13:11 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But leaks grow, and even small leaks add up to 10s, hundreds, thousands of litres very, very quickly.
00:13:17 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So we want all of them, basically, and everyone we find will go on the system and it will get fixed at some point.
00:13:24 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
The only reason they tend to drag on is where it is a customs property, so it's not ours.
00:13:30 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
They tend to last a bit longer.
00:13:32 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
If it's our network, we'll get on and repair it.
00:13:35 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And there is resource growing on the background.
00:13:37 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So hot weather or a weeter outbreak, when we get a freeze or we get a massive spike in leaks, it may take us longer to get to those small ones.
00:13:44 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But we want them all and we'll fix them all.
00:13:45 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we want that to be days.
00:13:47 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We don't want that to be weeks and months.
00:13:49 Mike Keil, CCW
OK, it's a clear message: leaks, we're coming for you.
00:13:52 Mike Keil, CCW
I get that.
00:13:53 Mike Keil, CCW
You've you've dodged the customer commitment question about how quickly would you want to act on a visible leak?
00:13:59 Mike Keil, CCW
Do you have any come back to that then?
00:14:01 Mike Keil, CCW
So, what is your commitment?
00:14:03 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think we do, yes.
00:14:04 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I have to check that.
00:14:05 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I don't know off the top of my head.
00:14:07 Mike Keil, CCW
I suppose where I was going with this actually is that if I report a leak, just taking it from a point of view of just an average punter, if I reported a leak and you got in touch and said, actually, we're not going to get to this for five days because we'll lose all the big stuff going on, I think I'd be okay with that.
00:14:24 Mike Keil, CCW
Do you know what I mean?
00:14:25 Mike Keil, CCW
Like as a punter, the communication, sorry, the point I'm very badly making here is the communication back to customers is really important here.
00:14:32 Mike Keil, CCW
Do you cause that loop when people report a leak?
00:14:35 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, that and I is our aim.
00:14:36 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, keeping the customer informed, we call that ACI if you have another lovely...
00:14:41 Mike Keil, CCW
Oh, here we go.
00:14:42 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, keep your customer informed, really, really important.
00:14:44 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We know people get annoyed if they don't get informed about what's going on.
00:14:47 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I mean, interestingly, she used to choose a personal example.
00:14:50 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
When I started in this job a couple of years ago, my wife reported the leak down the road, and that was just a coincidence, really.
00:14:56 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But it was interesting to see how the process worked.
00:14:59 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Her feedback was we kept her over informed about
00:15:02 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
about what we were doing because you were getting texts.
00:15:04 Mike Keil, CCW
That's because you were going over and telling you.
00:15:07 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And that wasn't just me.
00:15:08 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I was telling her as well.
00:15:09 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So maybe it was my bit that tipped her over the edge.
00:15:12 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But yeah, you're right.
00:15:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Keep a customer informed.
00:15:14 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We want to keep them informed.
00:15:16 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We'll do that by text.
00:15:17 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
We'll do it via call if that's what people want.
00:15:19 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So that people get resolution on that leak you reported is fixed.
00:15:24 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we know customers get an order and that takes longer.
00:15:26 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And it's perfectly understandable, isn't it?
00:15:28 Mike Keil, CCW
Yeah, but I do think though, from a customer point of view, a people point of view,
00:15:32 Mike Keil, CCW
that people tend to be quite reasonable and rational, but they do want to be, they do want to be kept informed, then you're right, that's a sensible frequency.
00:15:42 Mike Keil, CCW
And if they are informed, then I think people would understand more.
00:15:45 Mike Keil, CCW
It's where people are kept in the dark and they don't know where things are going.
00:15:48 Mike Keil, CCW
I think that is what really angers them.
00:15:50 Mike Keil, CCW
So it's good to hear the people informed.
00:15:54 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, personally, I'd much prefer that attitude.
00:15:56 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
That's a great public spirited attitude.
00:15:59 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
If you're spotting a leak and reporting it and you want it to be repaired, brilliant.
00:16:03 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And if people are approaching that in their daily lives, they want to fix leaks on their property, they want to be a bit wiser with their water use.
00:16:10 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
fantastic.
00:16:11 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
That helps them.
00:16:12 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It helps everybody else.
00:16:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It helps us.
00:16:14 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
It helps us make sure there's enough water and it keeps building.
00:16:16 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So that is the attitude I want.
00:16:18 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I'd much prefer that than an apathy where people aren't reporting them or they don't want to hear back.
00:16:22 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I get that.
00:16:23 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And that is that is good.
00:16:24 Mike Keil, CCW
Yeah, and I think by keeping them informed and fixing those leaks, that is one way of many that we can help create trust between
00:16:35 Mike Keil, CCW
of water companies and their customers.
00:16:36 Mike Keil, CCW
And as we know, trust is not where it should be or where it needs to be.
00:16:40 Mike Keil, CCW
And actually, reporting leaks are making that experience good for most customers, but not your wife, is one way that you can help enhance the reputation.
00:16:52 Mike Keil, CCW
I think that is important because I mean, I know companies quite often say, well, you know, we've beaten our target in this, that and the other.
00:16:58 Mike Keil, CCW
But I think that gets blown out of the water, literally, excuse the pun.
00:17:02 Mike Keil, CCW
if they've seen a visible leak running and run it, because they'll just go, yeah, you say you've been your target and we've already seen the target, but I've just seen this leak for two weeks and I'm really crossed and I didn't hear anything about it.
00:17:16 Mike Keil, CCW
So I do think we've got to be careful something about how we, what companies explain what they're doing, because lived experience, I think, Trump's just quoting a big
00:17:25 Mike Keil, CCW
massive target that you're exceeding.
00:17:28 Mike Keil, CCW
Absolutely, yeah.
00:17:30 Mike Keil, CCW
I think one of the things that's I think really important for us to recognise is that you doing your bit as a water company really influences the motivation of individuals to do their bit in their own daily lives to save water.
00:17:45 Mike Keil, CCW
Now, one of the things that we're always back, you know, about waterfalls, all these ways to save water, and we're very keen to hear other people's views and top tips.
00:17:55 Mike Keil, CCW
And I think you're just the person to share your top tips on how to save water.
00:18:02 Mike Keil, CCW
So what would you recommend that your customers do?
00:18:04 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, and really like you for it.
00:18:07 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think that's a great message to share with customers.
00:18:09 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And it helps people save money as well, doesn't it, as people move to more meter billing?
00:18:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So many, many benefits of doing that.
00:18:15 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I mean, we're sat here in July, so we've got a particular pinch point.
00:18:19 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I think we're using lots of water in summer.
00:18:21 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And that means front of mind for us is
00:18:24 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
What are those big uses of water in summer that you really could avoid?
00:18:27 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So closed pipes, swimming pools, those things use a massive amount of water in a short space of time and it can affect supply and pressure in the areas as well as that long-term supply demand system be told by.
00:18:39 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I'd ever think again about using those.
00:18:41 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
If you can reuse pool water, if you can use a watering can, you can leave your lawn to go yellow.
00:18:46 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think once you've done the gardening experts will say that's fine, it'll bounce back.
00:18:50 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
You don't need to keep it fresh green all the time.
00:18:53 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think those are some big uses.
00:18:54 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think shower times as well, the one we often talk about.
00:18:57 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So if you can keep that to a minimum, we'd love people to shower and keep clean, that's obviously really important, but it makes a massive difference if you're in there for 40 minutes or you're in there for the tent.
00:19:08 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I think shower times are a massive influencing thing and a garden and an outdoor use, they're two things that really come to mind.
00:19:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And then the final one is, and this is because they predominantly work on leakage, if you've got a leak, a leaking toilet, a leak on your property, fix that, it'll add up to a lot more than you were using some of those other uses.
00:19:24 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
over time, so just get it fixed with them quickly and we can often help with that.
00:19:27 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So have a look on our website, there's plenty of ways so we can help.
00:19:31 Mike Keil, CCW
As that's what you'd recommend, if people want to find out more, go to your website.
00:19:37 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yes, so there's stuff on there about how you can check that you've got a leak and what the volume is.
00:19:41 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There's some indications to where you can find approved plumbers.
00:19:44 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So there's a list out there of people that will do that work for you on your property.
00:19:49 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we do also offer what's called home water efficiency audits.
00:19:52 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Most of the companies offer these.
00:19:53 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So if you think you've got a problem or you think you'd like some information on water use in your property, we can send people out and they'll have a look around and talk to you and maybe put some water saving products in as well.
00:20:04 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And they can fix some simple leaks if they spot them well on that.
00:20:07 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Ultimately, that's your responsibility, but ways we can help.
00:20:09 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Have a look at the website.
00:20:10 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think our company offers something very similar.
00:20:12 Mike Keil, CCW
Yeah, we can put the link to your website in the show notes.
00:20:16 Mike Keil, CCW
So that's really good.
00:20:17 Mike Keil, CCW
And our final question is, what do you use, Howard?
00:20:20 Mike Keil, CCW
What's your personal use?
00:20:22 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Great question.
00:20:23 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So last time I was on, you'll remember how to estimate.
00:20:25 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
You'll remember.
00:20:26 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
No one, no listener will ever remember that they're going to listen back, are they?
00:20:29 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
But I had to make an estimate.
00:20:30 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I have got.
00:20:31 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
How dare you, How dare you, Howard?
00:20:32 Mike Keil, CCW
We've got very loyal listeners who's listening back?
00:20:36 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Good.
00:20:36 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
he may remember.
00:20:37 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think I was in the 90s last time from my estimate.
00:20:40 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I know precisely now because we have got a smart meter and I'd look on a regular basis.
00:20:44 Mike Keil, CCW
How's it going on?
00:20:45 Mike Keil, CCW
Your whole career would be lacking in any credibility if you didn't have a beater being the leakage manager.
00:20:52 Mike Keil, CCW
Sure.
00:20:53 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So yeah, absolutely.
00:20:55 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I checked yesterday, 107 litres per person per day we're on, which is...
00:20:59 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Yeah, our average is 135, something like that.
00:21:02 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And we want to see that come down through all the stuff I've talked about.
00:21:05 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
So I like to think I'm showing good practice, although that's really the only one.
00:21:09 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There's always stuff that I can do better.
00:21:11 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I don't want, was there 107, did you say?
00:21:13 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
107, yeah, litres per per person per.
00:21:17 Mike Keil, CCW
Below the 2050 target.
00:21:19 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I'm quite pleased.
00:21:19 Mike Keil, CCW
Of 110 litres A day.
00:21:21 Mike Keil, CCW
So, you know, I don't think I still think you should be beating yourself off about being below the 2050 target, you know, only twenty-five years early.
00:21:31 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Oh, yeah, beating my family up anyway, well, you know, telling them off.
00:21:35 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I don't, do that.
00:21:36 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
I think that's, yeah, that's a good amount.
00:21:37 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And what I would say is that's not a, that's not once wearing a hair shirt and never wearing showers and all that.
00:21:42 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
That's normal stuff.
00:21:43 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
You can get them to that level, I think, pretty easily.
00:21:45 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
And if all the customers did, we
00:21:47 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
we'd be in a great spot environmentally.
00:21:48 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
There'd be enough water in the environment and enough water to go around.
00:21:51 Mike Keil, CCW
I think that's a really strong message because it is, there's, it's not a great sacrifice.
00:21:57 Mike Keil, CCW
In fact, I would argue it's not a sacrifice at all to say water.
00:21:59 Mike Keil, CCW
It's just about a few simple steps, a few simple change of mindset of stuff.
00:22:02 Mike Keil, CCW
So you're absolutely right.
00:22:04 Mike Keil, CCW
Howard, it's great having you on.
00:22:05 Mike Keil, CCW
Thank you for touching us all about what you guys are up to on what is a tricky issue in the views of consumers.
00:22:13 Mike Keil, CCW
So I'll be sure to be reporting in my leaks as soon as I see them.
00:22:18 Mike Keil, CCW
But I'd like to phone in.
00:22:20 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Pleasure.
00:22:20 Howard Perry, Seven Trent Water
Thanks for having me.
