John Lin: Can y'all impact what what is it about church pain, church hurt, church trauma that makes it particularly damaging or painful? and I and I'm a s and in that question, I'm assuming there is a unique way in which disappointment, pain, hurt, betrayal from the church, from religious leaders lands differently than from other
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: Yeah.
John Lin: sources. Or maybe it doesn't. So can y'all unpack that?
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: No, I think it does. And I think it goes back to what I sh was sharing earlier, you know, the church is a representation of is a prophetic representation of God, you know? And and and so w when church hurt happens, I think it lands harder and more painful and more deeply because we expect more from the church, you know? Because if God is love and God is all knowing and all powerful and and God is for everyone and God stands with us and God protects us and the church is a representation of God, we expect the church to know more, you know, whereas the world can hurt us and other people can hurt us and i in i in in our heads we almost expect for the world to hurt us, you know, because They don't know better. They don't know what they do, right? But the church, "et tu" you know, like you're
John Lin: Mm.
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: supposed to know better. You're supposed to know be the voice of God. You're supposed to represent God. And so when church hurt happens, it lands much deeply. It feels like betrayal. And it doesn't necessarily just feel like betrayal from the church. Sometimes it feels like betrayal from God, even. You know, it feels like God Himself has left us.
Paul McMullen, LPC: Mm.
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: God believes this about us that we don't belong because God thinks we don't belong, because this church believes we don't belong, right? And so it's hard to separate the church. what the church does and what God believes and how God believes, right? And so when it happens, it's almost like a double force against us. Like God is against us as well and not just the people of the church. And part of the healing is to separate that, you know? To s to be able to separate God's love versus the church that is being run by sinful broken people who oftentimes are not even doing their own work, you know, who oftentimes are not well trained in people development, are not trained in holding space for people and listening to people and not having answers, you know, for all things. Because sometimes we don't, but oftentimes the church act as if it has answers for everything. And so all of that is Compounded hurt and compounded pain. Yeah.
Paul McMullen, LPC: Yeah, that is so true. Well said, Dieula attachment theory pops into my head. And part of attachment theory is that you know when you are with your most sig when you're with with your most connected relationships, when you're growing up, whoever your primary caregiver is, the idea is that you would feel secure and safe. And whenever you have pain when you're crying out for attention and help that your pain matters to somebody, that they're there to soothe you, they're there to to comfort you, they're there to be with you. When the when the people that you expect to be safe and to soothe you are the same ones that hurt you. They say that that's what develops disorganized attachment where you don't know anymore what to expect. Your nervous system is all jumbled up inside. And I think something
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: Right.
Paul McMullen, LPC: very similar happens with the church, where the church should be the safe place. The church should be the place of comfort. And when that's the place where you are wounded the most deeply, it it makes sense that it would create this really broken understanding of of
John Lin: Mm.
Paul McMullen, LPC: your attachment with the church and with God. And so I I think that's part of what's happening is this is the place
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: Yeah.
Paul McMullen, LPC: that that we want to be safe. that verbally says it's supposed to be the place of of grace
John Lin: Yeah.
Paul McMullen, LPC: and comfort. And so
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: Yeah.
Paul McMullen, LPC: to get that that negative mismatching experience is really destructive. And it takes a lot
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: Yeah.
Paul McMullen, LPC: to overcome it.
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: Yeah.
John Lin: So what I'm sitting with as I I hear y'all share is it's it's a real tension because it's like God designed the church to be this community where we experience safety being seen, where we it's meant, I think it's truly meant to be a conduit of God's love, right? Hence we call the church the body of Christ. But in intrinsic in that, if you're gonna have any human system then, you know that comes with a a big dose of disappointment, betrayal, all these things that y'all mentioned. So yeah, I'm just sitting with that, I'm struggling with that because it's like, how do we is that possible to hold on to a hope that okay, on the one hand, I do believe the church can be this this really good thing. And on the other hand, just by making myself open to that, I am going to have to risk being hurt and disappointed.
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: Yeah.
John Lin: sources. Or maybe it doesn't. So can y'all unpack that?
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: No, I think it does. And I think it goes back to what I sh was sharing earlier, you know, the church is a representation of is a prophetic representation of God, you know? And and and so w when church hurt happens, I think it lands harder and more painful and more deeply because we expect more from the church, you know? Because if God is love and God is all knowing and all powerful and and God is for everyone and God stands with us and God protects us and the church is a representation of God, we expect the church to know more, you know, whereas the world can hurt us and other people can hurt us and i in i in in our heads we almost expect for the world to hurt us, you know, because They don't know better. They don't know what they do, right? But the church, "et tu" you know, like you're
John Lin: Mm.
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: supposed to know better. You're supposed to know be the voice of God. You're supposed to represent God. And so when church hurt happens, it lands much deeply. It feels like betrayal. And it doesn't necessarily just feel like betrayal from the church. Sometimes it feels like betrayal from God, even. You know, it feels like God Himself has left us.
Paul McMullen, LPC: Mm.
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: God believes this about us that we don't belong because God thinks we don't belong, because this church believes we don't belong, right? And so it's hard to separate the church. what the church does and what God believes and how God believes, right? And so when it happens, it's almost like a double force against us. Like God is against us as well and not just the people of the church. And part of the healing is to separate that, you know? To s to be able to separate God's love versus the church that is being run by sinful broken people who oftentimes are not even doing their own work, you know, who oftentimes are not well trained in people development, are not trained in holding space for people and listening to people and not having answers, you know, for all things. Because sometimes we don't, but oftentimes the church act as if it has answers for everything. And so all of that is Compounded hurt and compounded pain. Yeah.
Paul McMullen, LPC: Yeah, that is so true. Well said, Dieula attachment theory pops into my head. And part of attachment theory is that you know when you are with your most sig when you're with with your most connected relationships, when you're growing up, whoever your primary caregiver is, the idea is that you would feel secure and safe. And whenever you have pain when you're crying out for attention and help that your pain matters to somebody, that they're there to soothe you, they're there to to comfort you, they're there to be with you. When the when the people that you expect to be safe and to soothe you are the same ones that hurt you. They say that that's what develops disorganized attachment where you don't know anymore what to expect. Your nervous system is all jumbled up inside. And I think something
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: Right.
Paul McMullen, LPC: very similar happens with the church, where the church should be the safe place. The church should be the place of comfort. And when that's the place where you are wounded the most deeply, it it makes sense that it would create this really broken understanding of of
John Lin: Mm.
Paul McMullen, LPC: your attachment with the church and with God. And so I I think that's part of what's happening is this is the place
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: Yeah.
Paul McMullen, LPC: that that we want to be safe. that verbally says it's supposed to be the place of of grace
John Lin: Yeah.
Paul McMullen, LPC: and comfort. And so
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: Yeah.
Paul McMullen, LPC: to get that that negative mismatching experience is really destructive. And it takes a lot
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: Yeah.
Paul McMullen, LPC: to overcome it.
Dieula Previlon, LPC-S: Yeah.
John Lin: So what I'm sitting with as I I hear y'all share is it's it's a real tension because it's like God designed the church to be this community where we experience safety being seen, where we it's meant, I think it's truly meant to be a conduit of God's love, right? Hence we call the church the body of Christ. But in intrinsic in that, if you're gonna have any human system then, you know that comes with a a big dose of disappointment, betrayal, all these things that y'all mentioned. So yeah, I'm just sitting with that, I'm struggling with that because it's like, how do we is that possible to hold on to a hope that okay, on the one hand, I do believe the church can be this this really good thing. And on the other hand, just by making myself open to that, I am going to have to risk being hurt and disappointed.
