Why Shame, Not Conflict, Is the Real Root of Relationship Problems w/ Jessica Fern and David Cooley

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Have you ever had an argument and you kind of wonder right in the middle of it or afterwards, like what made me react so strongly?
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What was going on?
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And maybe we don't even do that.
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Maybe we just project onto our partner how they are at fault.
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Either way, that's really not working, is it?
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So what we're going to do today is untangle shame and that dynamic that's just not a feeling.
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And by understanding and working with these internal patterns of this dynamic, people can create healthier and more authentic relationships.
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Today I'm joined by two guests whose approach to relationships comes from an unusually rich place, deep clinical experience, and decades of shared personal history to test against.
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Jessica Fern is an internationally recognized trauma specialist, integrative therapist, and certified clinical trauma professional.
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She's the best-selling author of Polysecure Attachment, Trauma, and Non-Monogamy, a book that has become essential reading on how attachment and trauma shape the way we love, whether you're in relationships that are monogamous or not.
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David Cooley built his approach to relationships from an unlikely place, the restorative justice world, where he spent years as a professional restorative circle facilitator helping people move through profound harm back toward repair.
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He adapted those same principles into what is now known as restorative relationship conversations model, a structured, safe way for couples to move through conflict toward real connection instead of around it.
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Here's what makes today's conversation really different.
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David and Jessica also share more than 23 years of life together, including marriage, divorce, and successfully co-parenting on the other side of it.
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This history isn't a footnote to their experience.
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It's arguably the most important credential either of them has.
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Together, they co-authored Polly Wise: A Deeper Dive into Navigating Open Relationships and their newest book, Transforming the Shame Triangle From Shame to Love Using Parts Work, also known as Internal Family Systems.
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Let's welcome David Cooley and Jessica Fern.
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Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the Relationship Blueprint, where you unlock your power of connection.
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And as I've stated, I'm very excited to have David Cooley and Jessica Fern here with me today.
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Thank you for joining me.
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Yeah, thanks for having us, Coco.
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I am just uh amazed at your story.
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You two have shared more than 23 years of history together as partners, then divorced co-parents, and now you're collaborating and co-authors.
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Yeah.
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How did that evolution happen and what made it possible to build something so professional out of something so personal?
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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Yeah, I love the way that you're framing that.
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Yeah, we were friends first for many years.
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We actually met at a residential massage school program in Northern California.
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We're both East Coasters, and we're exploring kind of our spiritual journey on the West Coast after graduating from college.
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And we found each other kind of serendipitously in this little school, had a really strong connection right out of the box, and realized pretty quickly, okay, this isn't a romantic thing initially.
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This is but a deep friendship.
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And after seven years or so, we decided to become a couple, a romantic couple.
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We watched each other in and out of different relationships, um, guided each other, support each other, but then really wanted to take a turn.
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And so we did and then got married.
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We were married for 10 years.
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We had a son together who's now 11, about to be 12 in November.
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We're in uh August of 2026 right now.
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And, you know, then we got divorced.
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We started to realize that the relationship wasn't what it needed to be in terms of the structure of it, you know, and there were certain needs that weren't getting met.
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There's certain issues that were coming up that needed to be dealt with in a different way.
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So we actually got divorced.
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But then after about a year or so of separation, we realized that there was something missing, and we actually didn't want to be that far apart.
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And so we came back together and we started living together and co-parenting in the same structure.
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It was really good for our son.
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And, you know, now we're collaborating professionally.
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And I think a lot of what works for us is we're both in the field of communication, relationship work, therapy.
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You know, there's so many modalities that inform who we are and how we are relationally.
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So there's been a lot of work to make it through these really profound transitions.
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And I can say without a doubt that the iteration that we're in now is really one of my favorite.
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I love your story.
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It sounds like you were both seekers, uh, you know, looking, you were searching for the spiritual life for you, and then you found each other in that place.
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And and then you really re connected right away.
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And I think we could do a whole episode on the journey of your relationship.
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We won't do that today, maybe another time.
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But I I love that what you're telling me really supports the work I do, which is there are many marriages or relationships within long-term commitment.
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That's right.
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Yeah.
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And that you I love that you were friends, then you kind of were like, maybe we should be more.
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We you become more, you have a son, 10 years later, you're you're sort of, well, we need to separate.
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Different needs are not being met.
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Then separate for a year, come back together and have worked through this.
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And it's really remarkable.
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I think if anyone listening has ever been divorced, I want you to really think about what David and Jessica have done.
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That's not an easy thing.
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So you must be very good at what you do.
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We apply it, we try our best.
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Yeah, I think there's a book in us that might come out one day that's titled something like ending the marriage, keeping the family.
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Oh, I love that.
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Because I think there's so, I mean, we see it with a lot of our clients.
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It's like it's what they also want for their family and marriage, but don't even know that that's an option.
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It's just, you know, the rigid divorce, live in separate homes, have contention.
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Like that is such the standard, unfortunately.
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And it doesn't have to be.
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It doesn't have to be.
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You're right.
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And what starts out, I mean, the the work that I do that began with Harville Hendricks is he was leaving a divorce court.
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He was a professor in marriage and family counseling, and uh was leaving a um the the big courthouse in Texas and on his way to go teach.
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So he had four children, just got the divorce proclamation signed, heading to teach marriage and family courses to students, has his own practice where 50% made it, 50% didn't.
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And he's like, What is this?
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This is back in the 80s.
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I headed then he dedicated his whole life to figuring that out.
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Why do we start out in this beautiful connection and end up in this power struggle?
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And many people, at least half of us, don't make it through.
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So I think it's uh really powerful what you've been able to do within that uh within a s a short period of time really as well.
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Because a year apart was not a long time to figure out there's actually another way.
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The pandemic helped.
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Oh when we moved back in um October, November 2020.
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You know, we were already potting up, but living in separate places.
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But, you know, that was uh there's environmental factors, right?
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Life factors that also impact decisions.
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And the pandemic was a push towards, yeah, this makes the most sense right now, given the world.
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Yeah.
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And how many people were in the pandemic and got divorced, and how many people grew closer.
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Such an interesting petri dish.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And you asked about some of the precursors of our process and and what's made it possible.
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And I think one of the things that we've really valued together as a relationship is being willing to pivot, making some significant pivots in our life choices, big life choices when necessary, you know, and that's really based on an assessment of current lived experience, knowing that needs change.
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That's something that's fundamental to both of our sense of reality, I think.
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And so there's been a willingness to do some radical changes and experiment, you know, really seeing relationships more like a laboratory than sort of a fixed contract.
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Um so I think for us, the longevity of a certain kind of relational structure isn't a goal.
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Yeah.
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It stays this way forever, but rather what's the nature of our connection and is it really meeting our needs now?
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I really, I really uh connect with that deeply.
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And I I think that in this work with couples, whatever we're doing, you know, use you used three big words to me, which um, you know, you were willing to pivot, which means change, right?
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That's right.
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You also the word willing, right?
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You were you were willing.
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And then to not have a fixed goal, really, just knowing that the change happens and being willing to accept change.
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And so many couples will say, I just want you know what we had back then, but you know, and not realizing that that really can never truly happen because we're not back then.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, I think we've always focused on not the idealism of back then, more like what are we evolving into and what do we need to evolve?
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Yeah.
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That's a beautiful question.
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I uh want to know what do you do now with each other when disagreements show up, given that you're both trained to spot exactly what's happening in the room, but you know, then it's you and it's all your triggers.
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And how do you how do you manage that?
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I just say that she's right and um just give up and it works, right?
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It works every time, like like magic.
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Yeah, and I think there's been a lot of development of self-awareness um between us.
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You know, we we because we have so much water under the bridge, because we have so much shared history, there's a lot of intimacy around our own patterning.
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And so I think to be honest, you know, and uh as a segue, at least eventually, to the book uh that we're gonna talk about is the parts work in particular is just so transformational as a modality.
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So we're really understanding each other's parts, you know, Jessica has an intimate sense of the parts of me that get activated in conflict, and vice versa.
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And so there's so much more awareness, anticipation, um, compassion, uh, empathy.
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There's a lot of strategic protocol that's been implemented and gets implemented.
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So if a part gets activated in me and I start regressing and start entering into an adversarial frame of mind or communication pattern, we can both recognize it relatively quickly and invite each other, okay, into a pause.
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Let's let's take a break here.
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This is not the moment.
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And all the words that you've just used uh just really ring true to the work that I do.
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And I'm thinking about how you use the word insight, you know, when when we develop awareness, we then we have the insight and can identify our triggers.
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But without that knowledge, we know we just operate on this level instead of this level, right?
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We can't know.
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And then yeah, and then you're talking too about how you pause, like nobody's gonna solve that fight when we're all triggered and and full of um defensiveness or whatever the feeling is.
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So it sounds very much like you know yourselves well and you know each other well, and the internal family systems, the parts work has really helped.
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It's helped tremendously.
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Yeah.
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So it doesn't mean we don't have moments of conflict and tension, but we're able to notice it and stop and not make it worse.
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So, Jessica, this leads me into your book, um, polysecure.
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Um you have reframed a lot of what people think about attachment inside non-monogus non-monogamous relationships.
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What is the core idea that you want people to walk away with from that book?
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Yeah, I want them to walk away with the idea that we can have secure attachment or secure functioning within any relationship structure.
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You don't have to be married and monogamous to have a secure relationship.
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So you don't have to be married and you don't have to be monogamous to have a secure relationship.
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Interesting.
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And for someone who assumes attachment theory is just about monogamous pair bonding, um, what did you have to rethink or expand to make it fit a polyamorous and open relationship?
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Yeah, well, if you really go back to the original studies, they're also, you know, they're swayed by patriarchy and sexism.
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That the original studies that Bulby and Answorth were doing were mothers with their children, not fathers, not the other attachment figures that might be in the house, like grandparents or eventually stepparents, or even that we have attachment relationships with our siblings.
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We don't just have one attachment parent-child relationship.
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That's so important.
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Right.
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And we know that, right?
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We know, oh yeah, my attachment with mom and dad is different.
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And I also am attached to my nanny, who's the actual one who raised me, let's say.
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Like there's all these other people.
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Um, but that research just really focused on only one attachment relationship.
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And so that then later translated to this assumption of one adult relationship.
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Right.
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Right.
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You know, most of us as adults, even if we are in a monog monogamous partnership, we still go, yeah, my best friend is an attachment partner and my sister, and I'm still attached to my elderly parents or my children.
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Yeah.
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So even in monogamy, we don't have one attachment.
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A question that comes up a lot in my office is um, say the female is uh, he's had an affair.
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And uh she says, I was always securely attached, I'm securely attached to everybody else in my life, but now this part of me um that was devastated and feels betrayed is so anxiously attached.
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Yeah.
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Um does your work address any of that kind of scenario?
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Because I hear that one quite a bit.
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Yeah, and and Dave does this too, but of course, yeah, that couples, there's many things in our adult relationships that can create an insecure experience and change our attachment style.
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Yeah.
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And an affair is one of the most obvious, you know, or other things like lying in other ways, or you know, things with money that have been kept secret.
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Yeah, people thought they were secure and now they feel really anxious.
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Yeah, the financial betrayals that get sort of swept under the rug.
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And David, did you want to add to that about things about how you absolutely what's it's interesting because you know, I really agree with Jessica and see that anecdotally in my clients where we have a diffuse array or spectrum of attachments with the people in our lives.
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And yet what's interesting for me is that when people form romantic emotional and sexual relationships, the bond or attachment is unique.
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And it generates certain kinds of reactions, emotional, psychological, and nervous system reactions that are very specific and can often be amplified because the stakes of potentially losing that connection are really high for our nervous systems.
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Right.
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And this is typically where we see anxious responses that can lead to extremes like uh primal panic responses, because for the nervous system to lose a primary emotional connection is, as far as it's concerned, more than symbolic.
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It feels literal.
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So I just want to emphasize just how profound the nervous systems are in response to attachment, and how often romantic sexual emotional relationships can really signify something different for our attachment systems.
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And because what you said around you know the potential client, right, is I'm only acting this way in this relationship.
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I feel securely attached everywhere else in my life, and it's just here that these extremities manifest.
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How is that?
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And I think this way of understanding attachment is helpful for a lot of people.
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Absolutely is.
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Yeah.
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That the the the perception, right?
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We can I'll have clients say, I know that I want to forgive, but I my body won't let me.
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I keep going there, right?
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And that's where you're talking about the importance of regulating the nervous system and being aware of all that's going on within our bodies.
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Yeah, yeah, I would say that is a fundamental hallmark of the difference as well, is just reactivity in the nervous system, right?
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Dysregulation really shows us a lot.
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Yeah.
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Especially when it feels like there's disproportion to a reaction in the situation.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Because somebody doesn't do one thing, it's evidence of you're betraying me again.
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You know.
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Um, even if it's a small thing, it feels that way.
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It doesn't matter that it isn't that way, right?
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Definitely.
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And you talked about, David, you you said something so important that I think our listeners need to know is that when they're comparing attachments, comparing your attachment to your brother and comparing it to your intimate partner, it's impossible.
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Right?
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That's right.
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It's just impossible because of the unconscious beliefs and desires we have about finding that person that is going to complete me or heal me or fill in the blank.
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So I feel like our listeners really need to understand that this partnership creates all kinds of dynamics that don't exist in other relationships.
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Yeah, and I think you're actually highlighting something that's really interesting to me, which is the aspect of socialization, right?
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How much of it is an innate biological response, and how much of it is the way that we're socialized to interpret the meaning of a particular connection.
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And because we live in a mononormative, right, heteronormative society, we are deeply uh inculcated with the beliefs that these relationships have a certain primacy or importance over others.
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And so that's not necessarily true universally across all cultures and so and across all times.
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So that's also an interesting thing to consider is how much of our own attachment responses have been socialized.
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And I think to your point, this this history that we have in these belief systems, even about affairs.
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You know, it's such a I I when when I experience it with friends or I I can't typically say this, but if 50% of the people in our country are having an affair or have had at least one affair in their lifetime or might, um then are we really just imposing shame on something that is really bringing up some importantum that needs something in a dynamic that just needs to be looked at?
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Yeah.
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To your and a lot of your work I love is um addressing shame and and so I think the secretness of all of that too comes from that socialization in our culture, which is, you know, you should wear the scarlet letter and you're horrible if you've done this, and all the judgments around that.
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:05.599
It's really, really um an interesting thing in American culture.
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:06.799
It is.
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:26.960
I think we've got an absolute fear of confronting shame, the the discomfort of it, and what it sort of triggers in us really runs counter to a lot of the individualistic, you know, pull yourself up by the bootstraps sort of illusion that we like to project, right?
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:38.480
That we can, as individuals, operate in a uh an internal vacuum without the influence of relational ecosystems that we're inevitably embedded in.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:45.039
And so it's interesting the way that then shame operates within that framework, right?
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:55.039
And so we have to dismantle that that illusion that we can just manage our internal experience without some kind of relational reference.
00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:05.519
And that's why I really like IFS, is because our internal family systems, because we're starting to really recognize that even within us as individuals, there's relational ecosystems with parts of us.
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:06.079
Yes.
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:13.519
And we're wanting to even get to that, and that's where the shame triangle really begins for us uh in terms of the most recent book.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:16.079
Yeah, I'm so excited to hear more about that.
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:22.400
David, while um we're talking about this, walk us through restorative relationship conversation.
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:26.400
Tell us about what it might look like, or maybe you two can demonstrate.
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:29.200
What does it look like between two partners?
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:31.119
What is the structure?
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:33.359
It depends on the issue.
00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:41.279
You know, so it's a work that's really designed to help people learn about, you know, we talked about awareness earlier, learn about their patterning.
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.680
What is the patterning that we're each bringing into the relationship, first of all?
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:51.519
And so most people come to me and they think, well, we're fighting over money, we're fighting over parenting, right?
00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:53.920
There's the content that's right on the surface.
00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:59.359
And what I'm actually asking them to do is take a few steps back and tell me about the nature of the relationship.
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:04.480
And then I'm going even further back and wanting to know about the nature of their upbringing.
00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:12.079
So this information around what's informed, how they show up to any of these particular conflicts is so key, right?
00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:15.279
We need that awareness around their own internal patterning.
00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:19.200
Specifically, what does your nervous system do when you feel triggered by the other person?
00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:22.000
So when you start talking about money, what does your nervous system do?
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:23.119
Do you go sympathetic?
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:24.400
Do you go dorsal?
00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:30.160
What's the strategy of your nervous system to feel safe in response to talking about money?
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:30.640
Yeah.
00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:33.599
Second, is what are the attachment responses?
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:37.519
We all have very predictable and repetitive attachment responses.
00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:42.960
Do we move towards the other person and try to get them to help us co-regulate our nervous system dysregulation?
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:44.319
Do we move away?
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:47.920
Do we ping-pong back and forth between anxious and avoidant?
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:49.599
These are really important things.
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:53.920
And part of that is do we amplify our feelings or do you do we subdue them?
00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:59.680
So I'm wanting people to really understand, like scientists, what is it that your nervous system does?
00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:12.240
Let's depersonalize those patterns, divorce them from the idea that these are indicative or reflective of our personality, and then see how those impact the way that you talk about money.
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:13.119
Yeah.
00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:27.119
After that, it's really about helping people understand the difference between an adversarial paradigm, which is what most of us have been socialized into, which really pits us against whoever makes us feel uncomfortable, right, emotionally.
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:32.319
So a partner hurts you, instantly they become an adversary.
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:33.680
And we're just trying to do that.
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:38.480
And so we're trying to teach them how to speak from a restorative or relational point of view.
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:40.960
So those are the two key prongs, right?
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:46.640
Is the how do you become self-aware of your own uh patterns in your nervous system and your attachment system?
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:51.759
And then how do you change your communication style from an adversarial one to a restorative one?
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:56.799
You know, you remind me of the metaphor of um the iceberg.
00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:08.799
You know, most couples, they're, you know, they're talking about money, and then underneath it is like so much more, and it's not one sunk the Titanic, the top was not the problem, right?
00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:11.759
So it's really important to get underneath that.
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:14.000
So I love your uh ideas.
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:21.920
Well, your theory really is that you can't just talk about the money before you know the past and the biological functions.
00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:27.839
How does my nervous system respond when I'm scared, angry, frustrated, mad, right?
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:29.119
Absolutely.
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:39.039
What did working with victims and offenders in the criminal justice system teach you about repair and uh couples recovery?
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:46.079
That we need one, that we need a really well-structured process to stay safe.
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:59.119
Part of what was making the capacity to hold a really tense and volatile situation like a restorative justice conference or circle possible is how rigidly structured it is.
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.839
And part of that structure is you're sitting down, you know, my nomenclature is a little bit different, right?
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:06.319
So a victim I would call a harmed party.
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:09.680
And so we sit down with the harmed party, we have a pre-session.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:23.359
We make sure that they were really consentfully stepping into this process, that they're clear about what the process looks like, so that their nervous system's primed and prepped, and we're making sure they're really on board for everything that the process entails.
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:26.319
Then we go to the responsible party.
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:31.440
So the perpetrator offender in this case would be the responsible party or individual.
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:33.279
And we're doing the same thing.
00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:36.720
We're saying, this is what you're going to be doing, this is the expectations.
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:42.079
Are you really open and willing and have the capacity to do this?
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:44.559
So again, consent and clarity.
00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:52.240
Then when we get into the process, like we're really holding as facilitators the process to the letter.
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:55.440
You have police officers in that space.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:57.039
You have community members.
00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:59.920
If it goes wrong, people could go to jail.
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:01.759
The consequences are high.
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:05.359
So there's a lot of activation right under the surface.
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:12.720
So that structure really provided a lot of safety, knowing what to expect, preparing people.
00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:21.279
And so I realized oh, we're going into very similar situations with our nervous systems, with partners without any preparation.
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:29.839
We're just launching into often willy-nilly, really intense, as you say, kind of iceberg-driven conversations, right?
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:32.160
Where money is just the tip of the iceberg.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:35.359
And often we're not getting consent for those conversations.
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:37.680
We're not asking if the person's ready.
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:40.400
We may not even emotionally be ready ourselves.
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:46.319
We don't have any sense of what we're going to be talking about and what the guidelines are, what the goals are, the intentions.
00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:52.319
So for me, that's one thing is the structure just provided so much safety for people.
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:56.559
And so I realized this, there's a different way to have hard conversations.
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:03.839
And what you've done too, David, in explaining that to us is your nomenclature changes the dynamic right away.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:13.279
The responsible party, the harmed party rather than the assailant, the victim, the, you know, those other words already are so charged.
00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:14.160
That's right.
00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:15.359
Yeah.
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:15.759
Yeah.
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:16.880
Yeah.
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:17.920
And it really does.
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:25.279
When you said consent, you know, that that you're teaching them on the front end, this is what we're going to be doing, and you're saying, Are you ready for this?
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:27.200
I call those the mini contracts.
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:30.319
Like we we don't often get a contract.
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:34.799
Like you said, I'm Are you ready for the conversation about our our son today?
00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:37.279
No, I'm not ready because I have a headache.
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:37.839
Okay.
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:40.400
You know, that makes sense to me.
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:45.839
So all of this is part of your structure, and I'm really impressed by that.
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:48.480
Um let's see.
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:51.920
You've already answered a couple of these.
00:30:52.160 --> 00:31:02.880
Uh so what is the biggest misconception about non-monogamy that the two of you have set out to correct in poly wise?
00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:12.240
I think the biggest misconception in general about non-monogamy is that it's all about the sex.
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:20.319
And it's people that are not able or willing to commit or they have commitment issues or avoid an attachment styles.
00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:24.559
And the research is clear, none of that is actually true.
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:35.039
That it actually requires being more secure to do something like polyamory well, where you have multiple in-love partnerships or multiple attachment-based loves.
00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:44.960
And people, when they've been researched and surveyed, um, sex doesn't even come up as one of the top three to five answers of why they're doing this.
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:46.400
Right.
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:53.839
So there's a lot of stigma on it because there's understandably cheating is the worst thing that can happen in a monogamous relationship.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:01.759
So we like kind of think it's the same, um, or someone who's trying to get away with cheating, and that's just not the case at all.
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:09.359
So, you know, we really want people to know there's many different ways to do it, many different ways people do it.
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:13.359
But also with Polly Wise specifically, it's helping them through.
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:15.039
There's also a lot of challenges.
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:15.680
Yeah.
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:16.240
Right.
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:19.920
That it is a more complex relationship structure.
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:23.039
And with that can come more love and support.
00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:26.079
And there can also become more challenges.
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:34.480
I I would uh I mean, I don't know the research, but boy, when you said that it rang true, that you even need to be more secure.
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:35.279
Right.
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:37.440
I mean, it seems pretty obvious.
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:46.880
You know, your research is right, but I mean it it it does it feel very threatening for monogamous relationships to think about that.
00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:52.319
And then of course, then comes the judgment, but you're dispelling you know that myth.
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:54.559
And you're trying to help people.
00:32:55.200 --> 00:33:06.000
And and when you have someone, you know, what I always describe affairs as, you know, is just an expression of unmet needs somewhere, and it doesn't mean about the sex necessarily, right?
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:19.920
There's something going on in the relationship, and maybe it has nothing to do with the partner, maybe the person that's having the affair is really just reenacting some old wounds and behaviors.
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:29.599
But when you have um someone who is thinking a couple that's thinking about, you know, do we want to explore polyamorous?
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:34.640
How do you how do you help them kind of do that in the safest way?
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:49.599
Yeah, in the best case scenario, we're getting them before they open up, but reality hits in most couples we're getting after they've opened up and they haven't gotten support, and there's been a lot of hurt and harm that's already happened.
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:50.319
Yeah, right.
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:52.400
There's a lot of mess to clean up, so to speak.
00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:52.960
Yes.
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:58.400
But if we have couples before, it's like, great, let's not rush this, let's go slow.
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.519
Let's first figure out why you want to do this.
00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:04.720
Are you doing this to save a broken relationship?
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:18.239
Because that's not gonna work, versus you're actually doing this because you feel like this is the evolution of your relationship or of admitting that your actual orientation is loving more than one person.
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:22.800
You want this because it's an expansion, right?
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:26.000
Not because of a deficiency in the relationship.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:26.559
Yeah.
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:34.800
I really think that's important for our listeners to hear is that that does not, that polyamory does not fix broken relationships.
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:35.199
Right.
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:36.960
It's gonna complicate things.
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:38.480
Yeah, exactly.
00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:45.760
I mean, there are some cases where there's a fundamental incompatibility in a marriage, but they actually want to keep the marriage.
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:48.400
And then sometimes the solution is great.
00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:56.480
You can go get that need met with somebody else, and we can then like release each other from that need and still keep what we have.
00:34:56.719 --> 00:34:57.039
Yeah.
00:34:57.280 --> 00:34:58.400
That can work sometimes.
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:03.440
It doesn't work all the time, though, if you actually still want that need with the original partner.
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:04.559
Right, right.
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:04.960
Yeah.
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:08.159
Did you want to add anything to there, David?
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:29.760
Yeah, I think it's fascinating to me that in the polyam or ethically non-monogamous universe, that there are so many people that are just essentially inspired and and you know, um, just driven to explore relationally.
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:34.320
Like there's some of the most broad-minded and introspective people I've ever met.
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:38.800
Um, and so there's something about that that's really compelling to me.
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:45.360
You know, it's that it's an invitation into more complexity, and I think in some ways that reflects the nature of life, right?
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:52.639
Is that we grow in an evolutionary way towards more capacity to hold more complexity.
00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:58.800
And so, in that sense, it's a real path to that end.
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:00.800
And so it's something that's inspired me.
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:06.960
And one of the things that I've seen in my clients is that there's so many different ways to meet human needs.
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:17.679
And so I've just been blown away by the way that people have been creatively using different kinds of relational structures to meet their human needs.
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:24.400
And it can look so different than the model that's really dominant in our in our society.
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:31.199
Um, and so I'd rather that people have more options than just be forced to reckon with something that doesn't work for them.
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:33.440
So important.
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:44.639
I think it it goes back to this social journey that we're all on and how we've been influenced about what we um can do, even.
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:49.039
I was talking to a young woman about her sexuality.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:53.599
She's about 14, and uh, you know, she's experimenting.
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:58.800
She's not really sure where she really fits in this world sexually.
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:02.880
But um I said, you know, it it didn't even occur to me.
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:06.239
I don't think I would have been allowed to think that.
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:14.480
Like talk about a belief system, like don't even uh be attracted to that beautiful girl with that beautiful figure or whatever.
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:16.960
Like no, that's a hard no.
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:27.760
And and now, you know, we are coming into a different time, and we're seeing that with our younger generation being more free because the culture's more free.
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:29.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:38.559
But many people that are adults now did not grow up in that same culture, which brings me to shame, your new book.
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:41.599
Because I think there is shame attached.
00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:53.679
Like a a couple I know that is um they're they're polyamorous and and they they don't tell anybody, they don't want to tell their, you know, I could never tell my mother, I could never tell my best friend.
00:37:54.400 --> 00:38:01.440
She would think I'm after her husband, you know, like you know, jumping all over the place with assumptions about this.
00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:06.800
So in your new book, um, what is the shame triangle in plain terms?
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:09.920
And what are the three key points?
00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:14.000
If either one of you start and then you can start.
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:21.920
So the shame triangle is like an inner triangle of parts that is three different parts.
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:29.360
It's the inner critic, which is the voice that beats us up and criticizes us, attacks us.
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:33.039
And then on the bottom of the shame triangle is shame.
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:43.760
That's the part that hears the inner critic and believes it to be true, and believes there's something fundamentally like wrong or broken or not okay about me, and I should hide myself.
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:49.039
And then that is a very intense dynamic of those two parts.
00:38:49.440 --> 00:39:01.840
And so we have escapers that try to rescue us from feeling that shame or rescue us from that inner critic beating us up, and we can escape in many different ways.
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:19.519
So we can overfunction and be high achieving, or overworking, or a perfectionist, or take care of everyone, or we can underfunction where we're kind of zoning out and numbing out and avoiding, or using too much substance, or watching too much scrolling.
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:26.800
And then we can also project it outward where I don't want to feel my shame, so I project it outward and become an outer critic.
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:33.840
Pick fights or criticize others, or just think I'm better than them, so I don't have to feel bad about myself.
00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:42.159
That really is, I mean, I could visualize all of the pieces of this and they make total sense.
00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:42.719
Yeah.
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:47.679
You know, that the um inner critic does invite that shame to come.
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:53.360
And then what we do with it, I'm working on um an addictions course right now, and that shame.
00:39:55.199 --> 00:40:00.000
Yeah, and so addiction would be an escaper in this system, in this model.
00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:12.079
And often there is some great addiction recovery and healing resources, but a lot of them aren't actually dealing with the underlying shame that the addiction is trying to numb out.
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:12.960
Right, right.
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:18.800
And then or they're not dealing with the inner critic that keeps this addictive escaper.
00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:20.880
And it's a wise strategy, right?
00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:43.440
Well, it's it's interesting that um like people that will have two years of um sobriety, total abstinence, um, the 12-step program or some program like that and the therapy that you're describing are really what has been able to keep people sober two years or more through the research.
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:43.840
Yeah.
00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:50.880
Because you're talking about like if that if I'm doing all the things that they're telling me to do, but I'm not looking at my shame.
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:54.079
I'm not looking at the real why.
00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:55.280
Exactly.
00:40:55.599 --> 00:41:01.440
Then it's and then people relapse, and then the shame cycle really starts in because then you've failed.
00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:05.119
So I I love that uh this is your new book.
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:06.480
I'm very excited.
00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:09.920
David, did you want to add to what Jessica shared?
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:24.239
Yeah, you know, this is really born out of just a an absolute brilliant insight that Jessica had, which was that essentially what we've done as individuals is we've internalized the drama triangle, right?
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:30.079
And so that's a model that was first developed in the 1960s by psychiatrist Stephen Cartman.
00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:36.159
And that's one of the best models for outlining interpersonal conflict between people, right?
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:41.599
Where you have the persecutor, the victim, and the rescuer, right?
00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:48.800
And these are the three roles that really define the positions we take when tension or conflict arises.
00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:52.960
But what we've done is we've internalized those three roles.
00:41:54.079 --> 00:42:00.480
And so that's really where the structure or the model of the shame triangle comes from.
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:07.199
So we can see this mirrored in and out in a really interesting way.
00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:14.079
Yeah, like we, you know, we seen hundreds, probably thousands of clients at this point.
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:18.079
We're like, all right, everyone has a shame triangle, but we're not born with it.
00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:20.239
We're not born with the shame triangle.
00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:21.760
We've experienced it.
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:31.920
It's the things we saw, whether it was with our families or once we finally got to school, or just the society at large of how we relate in this very drama triangle way.
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:32.480
Right.
00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:36.880
And that goes back to the adversarial paradigm that I think we've internalized, right?
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:43.039
We've just we've learned to manage and deal with conflict in a way that unfortunately is contentious by nature.
00:42:43.599 --> 00:42:56.559
And you're you're really speaking to the um missing self, the the lost self, the hidden self, the denied self, because that is another way that we can mask all this.
00:42:56.800 --> 00:42:57.039
Yeah.
00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:11.519
Um, and and some of that being so unconscious, you know, that we create the social self that everybody sees, but that inauthenticity is really rooted in shame too, because I know I'm not being me.
00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:16.480
I'm performing for you or for you, and never really me.
00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:24.079
And so your work is really trying to get to the root of all that so that people can be feel more integrated.
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:31.199
And I can see why the uh IFS works so beautiful with your with your theory.
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:40.800
Um you use internal family systems or parts work as a tool for transforming the shame.
00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:50.960
And how does that change the way someone can hear a partner's criticism or feedback, I'd like to say, without collapsing into shame or firing back?
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:53.360
Yeah, absolutely.
00:43:53.599 --> 00:43:59.760
You know, this is the the real shift that we're trying to make again from an adversarial posture to a restorative one.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:19.840
And so when we hear parts speak as parts, as just a fraction of a person's experience that's usually connected to some kind of really wise, adaptive strategy that's trying to help a person feel safe, we can really depersonalize what's happening.
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:22.159
It's not the totality of the other person.
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:25.920
You say something hurtful in a moment when we're fighting about money.
00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:59.840
If I can see that intensity and that unskillful comment as a manifestation or an expression of a scared little part in you that has valid concerns and is just simply trying to protect itself versus you don't care about me and my needs, that alone, that capacity to really divest one expression of dysregulation and really link it to a part versus the whole person absolutely disarms the volatility of a conflict exponentially.
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:08.400
And so this is something we're wanting people to have access to, right, in these moments is you're seeing parts, not a person.
00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:12.320
So I have an example of this in my own marriage.
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:15.360
So I married an entrepreneur.
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:18.000
He we took the Berkman assessment.
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:22.639
I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but he scored a 99 for risk taking.
00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:23.199
Oh wow.
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:24.559
I scored a one.
00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:27.519
So you're you complete each other.
00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:34.800
So, you know, it so you know, in the work that I do too, like we we've done a lot of growing and changing.
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:44.000
And so when he would say, Let's open another office in Charleston, and I'd say, No, we have to, oh, the reaction was, no, we have to get this one done first.
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:50.000
What he hears from his social experience is his mom, the critic.
00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:50.880
Yeah.
00:45:51.199 --> 00:46:01.679
And what he finally was able to hear was the scared little girl who never knew if we were gonna be okay with that it really had nothing to do with him.
00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:11.920
But until I was able to really uh claim that lost part of myself, uh I was pretty much stuck there and not taking risks.
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:26.480
And so when we reclaimed these parts that I have chosen this partner on purpose, and my first husband was also an entrepreneur, so it's a pretty obvious pattern that I wanted to own that part of me, but I had denied it because it didn't look safe.
00:46:26.559 --> 00:46:32.400
But when I could reframe it to measured risks, I grew tremendously.
00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:41.199
And it's probably one reason why I have a podcast because without his influence and that insight, it couldn't happen because it would have been too scary.
00:46:41.519 --> 00:46:42.079
Beautiful.
00:46:42.400 --> 00:47:02.559
Yeah, so it's just one, it's a it's an example that just matches what your theory is describing and and how important it is to get to have all of those parts of us that we were born with that somehow in social upbringing and our culture that we've denied, hidden, or lost along.
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:13.599
Yeah, and you and you were talking about the question of authenticity, and I think this is where IFS really becomes a robust and powerful system, is it's giving us a counterpoint to parts.
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:21.199
So instead of just saying we're just this menagerie of different parts, we also have a core self.
00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:21.840
Yeah.
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:26.320
And it's from this core self that we're really wanting to relate to other people.
00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:28.320
And of course to ourselves, right?
00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:36.559
So starting with ourselves, we want to relate in a very kind, compassionate, attuned, confident, creative way.
00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:37.280
Right.
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:45.119
And so IFS gives us this access to something that's just really profoundly human and beautiful and humanizing.
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:48.000
And it's really an ambassador for the parts.
00:47:48.159 --> 00:48:04.960
So instead of, as you say, if the parts are leading the show and triggered and we are totally identified with them, not even realizing that these are just parts of us, we sound extreme, we sound fractured, we sound contentious, we sound like we don't care about the other person's experience or needs.
00:48:05.199 --> 00:48:12.559
But when from self we can say, you know, a part of me is really scared by the thought of opening a new office in Charleston.
00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:20.000
I'm it's not the totality of me and it's not the this is what the decision has to be, but that part's alive and it's influencing the way I'm showing up for you.
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:21.519
Wow.
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:24.000
What a thing you're giving to your husband.
00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:26.639
What a difference that makes in that communication.
00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:27.199
Yeah.
00:48:27.280 --> 00:48:27.599
Yeah.
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:30.639
And then what he gave to me was the reassurance.
00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:33.840
Let me show you on a spreadsheet, honey, what that would look like.
00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:35.679
You know, because I'm visual.
00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:40.719
So it wasn't just, oh, now I don't have any fears of risk.
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:42.400
That didn't just disappear.
00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:48.159
But he could find a new way to communicate where I could understand and feel safer.
00:48:48.320 --> 00:48:51.440
So yeah, your work is just really profound.
00:48:51.679 --> 00:49:02.960
Um what's um where should our listeners go to learn more about your work, your books, the restorative relationship conversations model?
00:49:03.280 --> 00:49:04.800
Where should they go?
00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:07.840
Well, they can go to a number of places.
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:08.239
Okay.
00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:13.519
They can go to my website, which is restorative relationship.com.
00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:25.519
They can also go to our shared website called theAzRiteWay.com, which is a platform where we're hosting online classes that are related to this work and other modalities.
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:34.320
They can check out our podcast, Ask Jess and Dave, um, which we are constantly answering questions from listeners.
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:40.559
Submit a question or a case, and we answer the question one episode at a time.
00:49:40.719 --> 00:49:41.440
It's really fun.
00:49:42.320 --> 00:49:42.639
It is.
00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:43.360
I want to hear it.
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:46.079
I I'm I'm I'm a I will be a subscriber now.
00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:46.960
Thank you.
00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:52.880
Yeah, we had one on the last one was on infidelity, actually, and it's been a hot topic.
00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:56.960
So my website is jessicafern.com.
00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:11.920
So we have four ways to get to that will all be in the bio so that listeners when you get back home and you're driving, you know, you'll be able to go back to the episode and uh hear these four ways to reach out to these amazing people.
00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:18.960
And what I'm curious about is like your clients, can they can people say and where are you located?
00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:20.079
I don't I didn't ask.
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:21.840
We're in Asheville, North Carolina.
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:22.800
North Carolina.
00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:23.280
I didn't know.
00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:30.480
We mostly do remote work really around the world as long as the time zones can cross over.
00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:34.880
Oh, that's what I was really curious about because I really love what you're doing.
00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:46.880
And I think if our listeners want to access you, um, I was wondering if you were limited by state licensure, but you're not, and you're able to do this anywhere in the world with any couple.
00:50:47.119 --> 00:51:04.159
And if they're if they're having if they're curious, let's just say they're uh polycurious or they're um not like they're in a monogamous relationship, but they're having these same issues, could they but could both audiences come to you?
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:07.920
Yeah, we see the whole we see all the relationship structures.
00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:08.960
That's what I like to say.
00:51:09.039 --> 00:51:11.760
We're not for or against any of them.
00:51:12.079 --> 00:51:17.360
We see the whole spectrum from monogamy to polyamory and everything in between.
00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:18.239
Yeah.
00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:25.039
Is is there anything you didn't get to say today in this episode that you want to end with before we go?
00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:29.679
Oh, just excited to be on the platform.
00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:36.079
Really appreciate that you're doing this work, broadcasting this, promoting just relational intelligence.
00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:42.400
You know, to me it's so heartening because it feels like such a key element of human experience.
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:45.039
Like I think we are fundamentally relational creatures.
00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:56.880
So I'm just I'm really inspired by the proliferation of people like you who are really taking it upon themselves, and it's not a small thing to manage and do a podcast, right?
00:51:57.039 --> 00:52:02.719
And offer this platform for people like us to get the word out and share these ideas.
00:52:03.760 --> 00:52:05.599
Thank you for taking the risk.
00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:07.039
Thank you.
00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:07.760
Yeah.
00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:10.079
And it's been such a great one.
00:52:10.239 --> 00:52:11.679
I keep learning and learning.
00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:14.320
I learned so much from both of you today.
00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:21.039
And so the podcast is called The Relationship Blueprint, where you unlock your power of connection.
00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:23.760
And this episode really amplifies that.
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:32.400
That, you know, David and Jessica are providing the blueprint, not only relationship with other, but with self.
00:52:32.639 --> 00:52:32.960
Yeah.
00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:39.119
And I think that the piece about self can't um work just alone.
00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:42.239
It has to be in relationship, but it begins with self.
00:52:42.559 --> 00:52:43.119
That's right.
00:52:43.360 --> 00:52:50.239
You know, so it we, if without the insight, none of what David and Jessica have shared can really happen.
00:52:50.480 --> 00:53:09.679
That's where you get back to where we began today, David, with when you two are working with a couple, you not only find out, yes, we're arguing about money, okay, but let's go back to your biology, what's going on, and then your history, and that with all of that and the skills that you're sharing, that people can navigate this.
00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:10.639
That's right.
00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:22.880
And I want to just encourage everyone to find a way, find a therapist, find David and Jessica to find a way to get through it because there's so much beauty on the other side.
00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:33.920
And your testimony today that you are still friends and professional collaborators and co-parenting, it's a testament to what happens when you do the work.
00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:36.000
So thank you for your example.
00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:37.440
Thank you, Coco.
00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:38.400
Thanks, Coco.
00:53:38.559 --> 00:53:39.199
Super sweet.
00:53:39.360 --> 00:53:39.679
Yeah.
00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:42.400
Well, thank you everybody for being with us today.
00:53:42.559 --> 00:53:51.760
And remember, if you make comments, um, reviews on any of the platforms where you listen, that really helps boost the podcast.
00:53:52.000 --> 00:54:04.719
And we're really trying to reach everyone that wants to listen because so many people are going through really hard times, especially within relationships, and they may not have access to a therapist.
00:54:04.960 --> 00:54:08.159
And this might be the seed of change for them.
00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:14.880
So we'll see you next time on the relationship blueprint, unlocking your power of connection.
00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:16.960
Bye, everybody.