Is the plague back?

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But it's a little perplexing to understand why 200 people were quarantined if they did not think that this had anything to do with the lab that she Hey there, fellow nerds. Welcome back to another episode of The Present Illness, a podcast where two physicians try to make sense of a world that's~ a little febrile. And this week we're gonna talk about the plague.
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So just so super fitting. ~ and and definitely under a diagnose.
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I'm Arghavan Salles, a surgeon scientist in your friendly neighborhood doom and residence.
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I'm Alyssa Bergar, an anesthesiologist and bioethicist who tracks news and health a lot like their EKGs, full of spikes and surprises. You're on the present illness where we dig into public health politics, culture, and ethics with a scalpel in one hand and a meme in the other.
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As a note to our listeners today, we are talking about the plague and executions.
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So if these topics are too much for you today, we'll see you next week.
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Yeah, I mean, all topics are too much, really, at this point. But anyway, that's what we're going to talk about today.
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~ big thank you to everyone who's listening wherever you have found us.
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we want to send some extra love out to our subscribers and followers on the various platforms. And we want to extend a special warm welcome to anyone who is stumbling in from Trump asking Iran to attack LA and San Diego.
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So I just Alyssa just shaking her head.
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I ~ the the I actually had not heard what Trump said, but my intro into this topic was that I came across The Bridge Fairy who like decorates bridges with messages and it said, Dear Iran, he's in Florida.
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Love California.
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Yeah, let me play let me play the audio.
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It's I have a short clip in case folks haven't heard it, although he's now said it three times this week.
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So this this audio that I'm about to play for you is from the first time, which was on Monday at a rally in Nebraska,~ interestingly. And I will I will just ask for folks to listen to the crowd as well, because there's what he says and then there's the reaction of the crowd.
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All right. And again, remember, with a war, it's just artificial.
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It's a little bit high. It's a small price to pay for keeping the world safe, keeping our country safe. They can take out a city.
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Let take let it let take out Los Angeles.
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Let take out San Diego. That's this is a very small price to pay.
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And it's gonna be over in the very soon.
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It's essentially almost over with.
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And they might keep going a little long, you know. They always say they have a big threshold for pain.
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They need it, let me tell you, they need it. But it's gonna end very soon and it'll end one way or the other and your gas and your gasoline and all of the th So I mean, listen, I'm dumber right now for listening to that.
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The thing is, you know, part of the reason I thought it was worth playing is just as every other fucking crazy thing he says, people, but he didn't say that, he didn't do that, you're taking it the wrong way.
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He says, let them take out LA, let them take out San Diego. He doesn't say it would be bad if they did that, or that they could have, or that they had threatened to, right? He doesn't say, because I think what people people are like, you know, Trump whisperers now, like.
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well, he's talking about gas prices.
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So he's saying the gas prices, it's worth it to pay high gas prices so that they don't take out LA and San Diego.
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But that is not what he said. And he is the president of one of the most powerful countries in the world.
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And he can't manage to like communicate clear thoughts such that you, random internet user 03579, feel that you have to explain to other people what he really meant. We should not be in a position where people are having to.
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interpret the words of a demented man who holds the keys to our nuclear weapons.
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Well, and we are recording this today on ~ October eighth, and just a few hours ago Trump said he's not going to resume military strikes on Iran until after the midterm.
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So it's also being used as yet another way to try to manipulate voters into not being quite so pissed at him.
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I I think it's very clearly an attempt to say that or to suggest that if not for him and his action, Iran would have taken out LA and San Diego.
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Never mind the fact that Iran has no capacity to attack LA or San Diego.
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Let's just be very clear about that.
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They have no missile that could reach the West Coast of the United States.
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I don't even think they have a missile that could reach the east coast of the United States. and Los Angeles is.
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probably the largest population of Iranian people outside of Iran.
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Not that our not that the Iranian government cares about its people, but it would be a strange choice, let me just say that, for them to go after~ LA.
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And I mean, as as other f others have said, why would anyone think Iran's taking orders from anyway, from from the president of the United States who they're at war with?
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Like none of it makes sense, but I do want to be clear that he has now said this three different times because that was Monday night.
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Then he said it again yesterday, and then I believe he said it again today, which is Thursday. The same thing.
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Not they could have, they would have, they could they threaten to, but let them take out these cities and see how bad it is. He's taunting Iran to try to attack US citizens.
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US citizens and San Diego, as many have pointed out, there are a lot of military folks in San Diego.
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That's a I mean, that's a military town.
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Yes. So it's not just, come after our citizens, but also go ahead, come after our our military.
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And we're just supposed to be like, yeah, ha ha ha. Like it's a it's not a joke.
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Maybe It's not funny.
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You can't say I mean, you know, like what is what is happening?
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Maybe this will inspire people in the military, like when when Trump tries to stay in office, like maybe that'll inspire them to not let him.
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goodness. Yeah. I mean we know obviously they've replaced so many of the top leadership in the military to be just loyalists and not I mean, they've removed Yeah.
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or people either they've removed the people with this with a lot of the people with integrity, or those people have chosen to leave because they could not stay working in this kind of environment.
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Anyway, so yeah, that that was that's one of things that's been happening this week.
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you know, yeah, he claimed he claimed that he ended the war in Iran eight months before it started. Did you see that?
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no, I didn't. ~ but you know, he also eradicated their ability to have a nuclear weapon before he started the war to make sure that they didn't have a nuclear weapon, according to him.
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This is what I'm saying. This is why I I just can't listen to him talk anymore.
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I mean, one, it's like nails on a chalkboard, but also because I just get dumber every time I hear him speak.
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He's he's he's dumb.
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Yeah, and as I pointed out in that clip, like the crowd behind him is cheering when he says, let them take out LA, let them take out San Diego.
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Like he's gonna say I mean whatever he's gonna say, but what are we doing cheering on attacks on US cities?
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Meanwhile, by the way, like we're gonna talk about other things, but ~ you know, there's been so much focus on Hassan Piker.
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We have not done a deep dive for this pod on Hassan Piker.
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Has Hassan Hassan Piker is a Leftist ~ streamer. Okay. And he has a huge following and he's very popular in some circles.
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He's campaigned with a number of different people.
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In the last few weeks, if folks have been seeing the news, a lot of conservatives have been attacking Hassan Piker as a way to attack Democratic candidates in various places, including like Abdul al-Sayed in ~ in the Midwest.
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~ and anyway, so they're they're going after.
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Hassan and then suggesting that these political candidates are all the same as Hassan. Hassan is again a streamer.
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Okay? He's an influencer. And at some He streams by the way like it's like eight hours a day.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, many hours a day.
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So he he at some point, I don't I'm not saying verbatim, but he had said it basically like the US had done things that brought about 9-11,~ which I don't I don't see as a radical position.
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But anyway, he had said that. So that's one of the talking points that that held against him and other Democratic candidates who may be associated with is that this idea that like it's the US's fault.
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to some degree that nine eleven happened.
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Apparently that's like a really horrific thing to say.
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In the meantime, we've got the US president calling, He's he has he he has said no I yeah.
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but he's he's the US president is calling for millions of Americans to be killed.
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Yeah. I and and by the way, well Anyway, sorry, what do you think?
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What do you think about what Hassan said?
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Hassan Pegger, I mean, some of the things and the ways that he says it, like they're very bombastic. Like you said, he's an in he's an influencer.
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~ you know, also really smart, really smart person, but also like has a lot of things to say.
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So certainly the rhetoric, but they they it seems like they just keep pulling out the same like three or four things he said.
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And I'm like, he's he's literally scream streaming eight hours a day, and Yes.
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that's all you have that's all you have.
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That's apparently all they have.
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~ and the other thing And that's and that's all they have against these Democratic candidates too, is Hassan Piker. Somehow.
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So and then the other thing I just want to say quickly, obviously I corrected joke at the beginning about the the bridge ferry.
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I don't want anyone in Florida to get bombed either.
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Like I would not rejoice if people in Florida were harmed.
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~ again, not that that's something Iran actually has the ability to do.
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But no, we should not cheer on the end of, you know, ver just people because of regionally where they live.
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Yes, I I agree. I didn't I didn't think you meant that, but I appreciate the clarification.
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All right. Shall we get into the first of our two main topics for the day, which is the plague?
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I'm gonna be honest with you, Arghavan. I was not prepared for the word plague to show up in my newsfeed as much as it has in the last week.
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Yeah, it's been wild. I saw it first reported by like a random person on Twitter and no link to anything.
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So I was like, okay, I'm just gonna file that away.
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Let's see what happens. and then it took another, I want to say one to two full days before I saw like a legitimate news source pick up on the story. And that's when I started sharing it with folks over on Instagram.
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But if folks haven't been following the story, the basic gist is that there is a lab.
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In Siberia called the Irkutsk Anti-Plague Research Institute of Siberia and the Far East. Very long title.
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A woman who worked in that lab died last week on October 2nd.
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She had some kind of pneumonia.
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She became sick on or around September 25th, went to the hospital September 29th, died October 2nd. When news of all of this came to us, There were reports that she had dropped maybe a test tube at this institute, which I'll remind you again, Anti-Plague Institute is in the name, right? So that she had dropped a test tube.
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And so there were rumors that and by the way, I'll just say that even that part is not verified.
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There were just reports that she had dropped a test tube.
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We don't know whether she did or didn't drop a test tube.
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But there were reports that she had dropped a test tube and then got sick, and that 200 people were being quarantined.
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So you can see why people were like,~ she must have caught the plague, and they're quarantining these other people to try to limit the spread, which would, which would make sense.
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But then, then we hear from Russia that she did not have the plague.
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There was no drop test tube that anyone is willing to admit to.
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~ she supposedly was tested for many, many pathogens. They couldn't find one.
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So supposedly she died of a pneumonia of unclear etiology just days after a 28-year-old, just days after having contracted it.
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And I'm I'm framing it to you this way because it these are the points of confusion for me. Like if I today, as a 46-year-old, if I got pneumonia, no one would be quarantined around me, right? If I went to the hospital unless the unless I somehow f.
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Had some sort of very bizarre antigen that they found.
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Like, I would just go to we we treat patients with pneumonia in the hospital all the time. I would just get admitted to the hospital, get whatever treatment I make it, I don't make it, whatever.
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But it's a little perplexing to understand why 200 people were quarantined if they did not think that this had anything to do with the lab that she which is what they're saying now, that this had nothing to do with the lab that she just got sick and Well, I mean, I also think that now I don't obviously I don't have any information that you don't have, but like, you know, if you have somebody who like works in a place that has these very dangerous pathogens, I could understand being like, We're not sure what this is. We're gonna out of an abundance of caution Sure. Sure.
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tr assume that it's come from this lab and try to be really safe and then be and then be like, It turns out everything's fine.
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I mean, I could I could understand that.
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Yeah, that's possible.
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You're right. You're right. Although I yeah, I guess she so she was vaccinated ~ for this, which isn't it's not like a perfect vaccine for the yeah, vaccinated against the plague.
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Mm-hmm.
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yersinia pestis. Mm-hmm.
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and from what I understand of, you know, I've never worked in a lab that deals with those kinds of pathogens, but from what I understand, people are wearing N ninety fives or Pappers typically and the test tubes or other con ~ containers in which they're carrying these kind of pathogens usually have a backup system such that even if you drop it, it's still contained within a second container.
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Yeah. But you can still You know, it's have I mean, there was a there was I'm trying to remember what year it came out.
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A handful of years ago there's 'cause you there's a bunch of like essentially secret semi secret laboratories that that still you know, that do like smallpox ~ research Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
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and things like that where, you know, if that if those pathogens got out, it could be very dangerous. and, you know, there's there's errors that I you know.
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sure, sure. Anything is possible.
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I'm not saying like that I know that nothing happened.
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I'm just saying there are so many precautions.
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Mm-hmm.
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And typically, if there is, let's say she had dropped a test tube and there was some spillage, then typically as a lab worker, you would report that, right, to whatever the appropriate organization is or the appropriate person within your organization.
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And then importantly, yersinia pestis is treatable with antibiotics.
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So then she would have do you see what I'm saying?
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Like there's just a a number of things that don't quite add up.
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Like if they thought Mm-hmm.
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it was that, then why wasn't she getting treated earlier?
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Or why didn't she tell someone?
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Or is it that she didn't tell?
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I mean, we don't know. There's just so much we don't know, which is one of the challenges.
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Mm, mm.
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and this is something that like the WHO as well as commented on that it's really hard to get accurate information because there isn't a lot of transparency coming.
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Mm.
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From that institute or from the Russian government.
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So the things I'm sharing Mm-hmm.
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are, you know, mostly things that either have come from the government or have been verified by other people, but also as you heard me say, like some people are saying this.
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We don't know. We don't know if there was a test tube that fell.
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There, if we believe what we're being told, then she did not have yersinia pestis.
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And no one else who was quarantined did either.
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There have been some reports that there was a second person who died, but there have been They've been in like the Daily Mail and like the Russian parallel to that.
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So not exactly credible, reputable sources that has not been Sure.
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no one has been able to verify, including the WHAO, nobody has been able to verify whether there was a second person who had died or Mm.
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from what if they had. ~ that exists to ~ restrict countries from developing biological weapons because another idea that people have had as well was this lab developing other biological weapons. Maybe it's not anything to do with yersinia pestis at all, but some other pathogen that they don't want us Mm.
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to know that they've developed.
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I mean, you know, and this is what happens when you don't have transparency, people think lots of thoughts because we're like, what else could be going on here?
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In the end, you have a 28 year old who died within a matter of days.
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Well, and the other thing that this makes me think of, right, is the, you know, all of the claims in the in the pandemic that maybe it was a lab leak. And the reality is that that got dismissed really quickly in part because the Chinese government really didn't give us a lot of And Yes.
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when there because the WHO wasn't getting enough support, it meant that also when the investigation was done, the Chinese government got to really run that.
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And so even when their big report came out, it was very unsatisfying in terms of saying like it didn't look like it was taken seriously, in which case it's hard to say that that's not that that there was not some rule.
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Yeah, I agree. It's and I think a lot of people who follow public health closely and epidemiologists and so on and and people working at the WHO, a lot of people are like, this reminds us in some ways of what happened at the beginning of COVID because again, we had another government that was not transparent and wasn't Mm-hmm.
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sharing with us. And and of course they folks would like more transparency now because we would like to know what's happening.
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~ but I the reason I mentioned the biological weapons convention is that we know that Russia has violated it before,~ when they Mm-hmm.
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were using anthrax back in the 1970s.
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And they have not since the since the USSR was dissolved, they they my to my understanding, they have not agreed to not develop biological weapons.
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So yeah, we really don't know what is or is not happening in that lab.
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We don't know what this woman was working on, whether there was a leak from that lab or not.
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Like we we really don't. Hopefully at some point we will, but this has raised a lot of concern.
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Obviously, because people see headlines of like a young woman dies very quickly, was working in the anti plague research institute,~ where they work with Yersinia pestis, which is the the bacteria that causes the plague.
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And Mm-hmm.
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so people are wondering about what does that mean for the rest of us, even if it were that, right? Which again, we don't know that's what she had.
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But so I just wanted to like briefly summarize Yersinia pestis causes kind of three main categories of illness.
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One is the bubonic.
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Plague that we all learned about, you know, like in middle school or whatever that happened in the 14th very deadly.
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Black death.
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The Black Death causes enlarged lymph nodes, usually transmitted by bites from fleas,~ wiped out huge portions of the population at that time.
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That's one iteration. There's the pneumonic plague.
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So same bacteria causes pneumonia, which is what this woman had. ~ although they say again, Okay, but like also know why not that sounds like a disease, like for mathematicians.
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Why? It's not a parabolic plague.
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Oa Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Anyway, it's not it's not Sorry, ca I'm sorry, carry on.
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a quadratic plague. Anyway, so trying to remember all the math I used to know.
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~ but anyway, so so there's a pneumonic plague, which presents primarily with pneumonia, and that one is spread in a respiratory fashion, although it is not very contagious.
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So the R0, you know, the number of people who can be Mm-hmm.
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infected by one person is somewhere in the ones, you know, not even two or more, typic typically.
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Mm-hmm.
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~ so it's not very contagious, although it is lethal if left untreated.
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But again, we have treatments now.
00:20:46.950 --> 00:20:57.737
~ as someone I saw said, like, we've been dealing with Yersinia pestis for hundreds of years, like it's the opposite end of the spectrum from something like COVID, where we're like, we've never seen this virus before.
00:20:57.737 --> 00:21:04.270
Here we have an organism that tons of people have studied, you know, lots of options for antibiotic treatments.
00:21:04.270 --> 00:21:05.741
Anyway, so that's the mnemonic plague.
00:21:05.741 --> 00:21:08.503
And then the last version is the septicemic plague.
00:21:08.832 --> 00:21:28.490
Which is basically the infection getting into your bloodstream, which can happen in concert with either of the other two or on its own,~ and causes, as you might have already understood, sepsis, which is an infection that's, you know, multi-organ systems and again, if left untreated, has a very very high rate of death.
00:21:28.490 --> 00:21:32.183
So that's what we know about yersinia pestis.
00:21:32.183 --> 00:21:38.826
We have multiple antibiotics that exist that are easily found here in the US to treat it if someone were to have it.
00:21:38.826 --> 00:21:44.361
And by the way, people do get infected with this kind of all the time these days.
00:21:44.361 --> 00:21:55.388
It's just that again, because it's not that contagious and because we have treatments, it doesn't end up being this widespread ~ epidemic the way that it was back in the 14th century.
00:21:55.388 --> 00:22:16.742
So I think, you know, based on everything that I've read and I'll put some links~ in the in the show notes so people can read if they want to learn more about I don't know if this one individual had yersinia pestis or not, but it does seem like it's relatively contained, whatever it was that she had. Again, the Russian government saying she did not have that, that they tested, and that's not what caused her death.
00:22:16.742 --> 00:22:21.244
Most of the people who were initially quarantined, those 200, most of them have been released.
00:22:21.244 --> 00:22:26.147
A couple of them were found to have coronavirus, and a couple of them were found to have rhinovirus.
00:22:26.147 --> 00:22:37.126
You know, basically not anything too interesting in terms of, you know, pathogens. ~ And we will see what else we learn.
00:22:37.126 --> 00:22:42.318
I mean, even this episode hopefully will come out tomorrow, but maybe there'll be something new that we learn between now and then.
00:22:42.318 --> 00:22:45.830
It's one of these kind of rapidly changing circumstances.
00:22:45.830 --> 00:22:57.278
But as of now, and I and you know, really a lot of public health experts agree there's not a reason for us to be overwhelmingly concerned here in the US, or certainly no reason to panic.
00:22:57.278 --> 00:23:00.799
~ it just would be nice to have more information about exactly.
00:23:01.364 --> 00:23:05.076
what happened ~ in that lab and what happened to this woman.
00:23:05.076 --> 00:23:06.844
Maybe maybe we will get that. I don't know.
00:23:08.321 --> 00:23:13.133
Maybe we won't. Maybe it'll continue to be this huge mystery 'cause they don't tell us.
00:23:13.066 --> 00:23:26.602
Yeah. and one last thing I wanted to say is that there is a woman~ named Amy Jacobson who has written a book about a scenario in which a biological weapon basically ~ threatens the world is my understanding.
00:23:26.602 --> 00:23:28.151
~ It's a novel, it sounds like.
00:23:28.403 --> 00:23:38.406
well~ I don't it yeah, it I'm mentioning this because if you start to read about this, you may come across this person.
00:23:38.406 --> 00:23:39.847
I don't know that much about this person.
00:23:40.317 --> 00:23:54.282
What I do know is that a lot of the public health people and the virologists and the people who study pandemics, those people who I trust are like, please don't listen to this woman about the about the about what's happening in Russia because she is not informed on this particular topic.
00:23:54.282 --> 00:23:56.452
There there may be other topics that she's very informed on.
00:23:56.452 --> 00:24:03.875
~ and there's you know, I'll put a link to an essay where they really go, they do a deep dive into her book and why it doesn't make any sense.
00:24:03.875 --> 00:24:10.193
But Anyway, so j just just a little note that like if that's who you're getting your information from, I just diversify.
00:24:10.193 --> 00:24:22.371
Diversify your news sources. Look for other folks as well, because what I'm hearing from people I trust is that she's not super reliable on this specific topic. Anyway, that's that's enough of the plague for now.
00:24:25.198 --> 00:24:27.701
Well, thank you. Thank you. That was very informative.
00:24:27.701 --> 00:24:36.973
And I don't want to have to think about the plague as as much, but I do feel like you digested it for me in a way that's super helpful.
00:24:37.779 --> 00:24:38.779
Well, I'm so glad.
00:24:41.002 --> 00:24:44.991
but now it's on to a lighter topic, which is ~ state sanctioned killings.
00:24:44.991 --> 00:25:04.087
~~ brutal, brutal. So As I mentioned at the beginning of the show, I'm an anesthesiologist. And so I have always had a strong interest in well, I'm I'm opposed to state sanctioned killings in general.
00:25:04.087 --> 00:25:09.217
I don't think that we should. I don't think that we should that the state should execute people.
00:25:09.217 --> 00:25:40.730
That's that's my opinion. and When states started moving towards lethal injection as things like firing squads and things like ~ the electric chair began to lose public support, I think there was this idea that ~ Lethal injection would be a quote humane way to kill someone, which again, those things don't really go together.
00:25:40.730 --> 00:25:41.971
~ Mm-hmm.
00:25:42.090 --> 00:26:01.901
but the reason that we're talking about this is because last week was the on September 30th, the state of Tennessee attempted to execute Christa Pike with a single drug concoction made solely of pentobarbital, which is a barbituate, a really strong barbiturate medicine.
00:26:01.901 --> 00:26:10.489
~ She would have been the first woman to reach execution in 200 years in Tennessee.
00:26:10.489 --> 00:26:24.678
She also, if I mean, she did not die, which is really the key here, is there was an attempted execution and she survived and she is now awake~ after this attempt to execute her.
00:26:24.678 --> 00:26:31.040
Sh ~ if if she had died, she would have been only the 19th woman to be executed in the United States.
00:26:31.040 --> 00:26:45.424
~ One of the things that's so troubling about lethal injection for me is that there's a lot of things about it that sound a lot like doing a general anesthetic, but just really unsafely.
00:26:45.740 --> 00:26:46.740
Mm.
00:26:46.695 --> 00:26:55.182
and you know, if you're gonna make crass jokes, like if you're a really bad anesthesiologist, you could kill someone very easily.
00:26:55.182 --> 00:26:59.654
you know, we obviously take my job very seriously.
00:26:59.654 --> 00:27:01.175
I want my patients to be safe.
00:27:01.657 --> 00:27:18.753
And it's really important that when people get care from an anesthesiologist or any sort of an anesthesia provider, that there's not this confusion of what our role is, and that our role is supposed to be to ~ you know, to serve patients, keep them safe,~ so they can get the care that they need.
00:27:18.753 --> 00:27:26.821
but when you're doing things like use anesthesia medications to kill somebody.
00:27:27.155 --> 00:27:31.528
then you usually need to have some medical professionals involved in that process.
00:27:31.528 --> 00:27:33.809
So you need to be able to place an IV.
00:27:33.809 --> 00:27:41.021
You presumably need to do some sort of monitoring to determine whether or not the person has died. ~ Mm-hmm.
00:27:40.834 --> 00:27:53.201
And there have been many failed executions~ in the recent past in which, including this one of Christa Pike, where they really struggle to get IV access.
00:27:53.493 --> 00:28:14.340
Some executions are canceled simply because they they are not able to get access to a blood vessel. I even read~ in the past about cases where, for example, a central line was placed or attempted to do a central line,~ which a central line is a complex medical procedure that is generally done by people who know what they're doing.
00:28:14.340 --> 00:28:23.967
so there's And it's a big it it's a it's a much bigger ~ catheter than we use Mm-hmm.
00:28:23.521 --> 00:28:29.076
in like what would be a typically like a peripheral IV that you might get when you go to the hospital to have something done.
00:28:29.076 --> 00:28:38.401
It goes the reason it's called a central line is that it goes into the large central veins right before those veins get to the heart.
00:28:38.401 --> 00:28:39.626
And Yeah.
00:28:39.010 --> 00:28:43.156
we use them, you know, in the ICU, we use them in the operating room when we have Mm.
00:28:43.084 --> 00:28:51.292
patients who need either volume of medications or certain kinds of medications that can only be delivered safely in that location.
00:28:51.292 --> 00:28:57.132
But yeah, the Yeah. And I, you know, for example, I put in a lot of central lines for for my work.
00:28:57.132 --> 00:29:00.313
~ it allows me to give medications also directly to the heart.
00:29:00.313 --> 00:29:11.397
~ but yeah, these are things that, you know, for me, this is this is a this is a procedure that I do because I care about a person and because I want them to be safe and actually because I want them to survive their surgery.
00:29:11.397 --> 00:29:21.602
And so ~ it is very dystopian to see these exact same things that I do in my regular work used as a vehicle to kill a human being.
00:29:23.541 --> 00:29:29.092
And so what what happened in if I might ask so yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, what happened in this specific case?
00:29:29.092 --> 00:29:30.092
Okay.
00:29:30.213 --> 00:29:43.280
yeah. So Christa Pike, ~ when they went to do her execution and there were a lot of ~ legal attempts to try to prevent her execution from moving forward, they had a very difficult time getting a peripheral IV.
00:29:43.280 --> 00:29:48.683
it sounds like they must eventually have gotten one, apparently from ~ court witnesses.
00:29:48.683 --> 00:29:51.726
They tried for over for about an hour.
00:29:52.834 --> 00:29:59.038
They used at least seven needles and caused injuries to her arms in doing so.
00:29:59.038 --> 00:30:07.343
she received two doses of~ pentabarbital that were meant to be lethal.
00:30:07.343 --> 00:30:09.743
So these are very high doses of pentabarbital.
00:30:09.743 --> 00:30:34.432
And usually with high doses of pentabarbital, you do depress somebody's breathing, similar to fentanyl. but Despite these two doses, Christa Pike continued to breathe and could be heard snoring. you know, and at a certain point she hadn't died, but also wasn't breathing sufficiently.
00:30:34.432 --> 00:30:45.809
And so she was then the decision was made to rush her to a local Nashville hospital where she regained, you know, she received intensive care and re regained consciousness.
00:30:45.809 --> 00:30:53.478
~ But after I mean she but not immediately, right? Because I think she was in the ICU for Yeah.
00:30:52.182 --> 00:30:56.065
Several days. Yeah. We weren't sure.
00:30:53.478 --> 00:31:00.126
So there was some time where I have not followed I yeah, I haven't followed this as closely as you have, but I it was my impression Yeah.
00:30:59.932 --> 00:31:04.635
that people weren't sure, you know, whether she still had brain function and would would wake up or not.
00:31:04.555 --> 00:31:05.555
Yeah.
00:31:05.086 --> 00:31:07.948
So her we're recording on on October eighth.
00:31:07.948 --> 00:31:13.994
her execution attempt was on September thirtieth, and I believe she re regained consciousness.
00:31:13.994 --> 00:31:15.556
It was either yesterday or this morning.
00:31:15.556 --> 00:31:22.864
I'd have to double check. but you know, so she's been in the ICU, presumably receiving critical care.
00:31:22.864 --> 00:31:29.679
~ To to help her process all of this medication.
00:31:29.679 --> 00:31:31.067
And now now Mm.
00:31:30.471 --> 00:31:34.428
we have to find out whether or not the state of Tennessee is going to try to attempt again.
00:31:35.084 --> 00:31:48.635
Mm-hmm. ~ do we think or do th do they think that basically some of the medication was able to be administered, but then the IVs blue and that s you know, I don't know that we I don't know.
00:31:47.281 --> 00:31:48.281
do we know?
00:31:48.635 --> 00:31:52.765
I have not read that detail. ~ that's It might not be available, I don't know.
00:31:52.788 --> 00:31:54.859
sure. And that would be s certainly possible.
00:31:54.859 --> 00:32:02.473
You know, IVs can become damaged or dislodged, and you can end up actually depositing the medication into the subcutaneous tissue.
00:32:02.473 --> 00:32:15.621
This was a big problem when many states were using the three drug approach, which was a combination of a medication like pentobarbital, so a barbituate.
00:32:15.894 --> 00:32:24.973
They would use a cardiotoxic medication like potassium and a neuroblocker, neuromuscular blocker like vecuronium or rock uronium.
00:32:24.246 --> 00:32:25.246
Mm, mm.
00:32:25.694 --> 00:32:31.931
And, you know, for me, ~ potassium, I like you, we don't want it in the operating room.
00:32:31.931 --> 00:33:01.672
It's so dangerous because ~ an overdose of potassium can absolutely just cause someone's heart to stop. It's one of the things, for example, you know, when we're reperfusing ~ transplants, we have to worry about the potassium load from the organ causing~ cardiac arrhythmias. And ~ anyway, so that those three drugs together were determined to be cruel and unusual punishment. And in part because if potassium ~ is n it's it burns.
00:33:01.672 --> 00:33:04.839
So when you put it in a peripheral IV, Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.
00:33:03.594 --> 00:33:10.828
it burns and it's very painful. And so you would have people where They weren't sufficiently sedated.
00:33:10.828 --> 00:33:15.241
They weren't paralyzed because of that medication.
00:33:15.241 --> 00:33:20.226
Because of the they either hadn't received the paralytic medication.
00:33:20.226 --> 00:33:25.809
And so then they would be clearly in pain and clearly uncomfortable.
00:33:24.288 --> 00:33:25.288
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:33:26.611 --> 00:33:31.773
And worse, you know, there were probably many patients.
00:33:31.773 --> 00:33:36.718
Many people who were being executed who were not sufficiently sedated.
00:33:37.730 --> 00:33:39.401
were given a paralytic medication.
00:33:39.401 --> 00:33:43.991
And so they may have been aware and yet not able to move.
00:33:43.991 --> 00:33:51.124
And then to receive something like potassium and then experience extreme pain Mm, mm-hmm.
00:33:50.334 --> 00:34:06.066
and not be able to express themselves. That's a really terrible thing to do to a human being~ under any circumstances. So this is how Tennessee, after a bunch of legal challenges against their Three drug protocol ended up coming up with it.
00:34:06.066 --> 00:34:08.711
Well, now we're just going to use one drug, we're just Mm-hmm.
00:34:08.208 --> 00:34:11.139
going to use the barbiturate, and we're just going to use such high doses of it.
00:34:11.139 --> 00:34:14.603
And there's a lot of issues with procuring these medications.
00:34:14.603 --> 00:34:22.418
~ for example, because there were a lot of pharmaceutical manufacturers who stopped being willing to sell them to prisons.
00:34:22.418 --> 00:34:24.148
And so there's also this whole like black market that a bunch of prisons engage Mm-hmm.
00:34:26.001 --> 00:34:28.074
in in order to obtain these medications.
00:34:28.074 --> 00:34:45.753
and you know, from an ethics standpoint for for Clinicians, there are clearly, you know, nurses and doctors and other people who must be working for the prisons to provide execution as a service.
00:34:45.753 --> 00:35:20.914
And one of the things about this happening in Tennessee that is especially galling is that in an effort to make it easier for physicians and nurses in Tennessee to deny Needed legal medical care to patients, they've really amped up their ability for clinicians to do something called conscientious objection, where they can claim, well, I have a belief that you know interferes with my willingness to provide a service, such as abortion, for example, or gender-affirming care, or I don't want Yeah.
00:35:20.213 --> 00:35:21.443
to take care of certain people.
00:35:21.443 --> 00:35:23.675
And they can use almost Okay.
00:35:23.074 --> 00:35:30.126
anything to satisfy that state law, which really makes it easier for.
00:35:30.510 --> 00:35:46.739
clinici who are bigoted to take action or to pro to refuse to provide care to patients in need. And so to have the state that has really been like, no, we need to protect physicians' ethical right to refuse Mm.
00:35:46.516 --> 00:35:57.581
to take care of people, to also be like, yeah, but we're also going to not stop clinicians from killing people if it's in service of the state.
00:35:56.235 --> 00:35:59.561
Well we're gonna hire not just that, Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:57.702 --> 00:36:01.574
we're gonna hire people to kill And protect their identities, by the way.
00:35:59.849 --> 00:36:03.168
people. Ca hire clinicians to Yes, And yes.
00:36:02.646 --> 00:36:04.277
protect their identities. So they're secret.
00:36:04.277 --> 00:36:07.918
So you we don't know who these people are.
00:36:07.918 --> 00:36:12.184
~ you don't know if these are are these people who are in bad standing.
00:36:12.184 --> 00:36:18.248
Is this like the people who, you know, they can't get they can't practice, so they go work for a insurance company?
00:36:17.045 --> 00:36:18.045
Mm.
00:36:18.248 --> 00:36:23.356
Or is this are these, you know, I don't know what's happen like how did people get into this Yeah. Yeah.
00:36:23.672 --> 00:36:44.929
position? ~ As an anesthesiologist, one of the things that I will mention is the American Board of Anesthesiologists is incredibly clear that anesthesiologists will lose their boards their board certification if we participate in state sanctioned killing. I would love for that to be completely normalized.
00:36:44.074 --> 00:36:50.985
Yeah, for every board to do that. ~ I have a question that I saw online Mm-hmm.
00:36:50.585 --> 00:37:05.342
~ when news of this story first came out was or maybe not a question, but an assumption that I saw was people saying, well, she must be DNR, ~ because they were trying to end her life.
00:37:05.342 --> 00:37:21.278
So when she so th there seems to be a lot of confusion around I mean, understandably because it's a Terrible situation. But around what happens if the state was in the in the process Mm-hmm.
00:37:21.202 --> 00:37:31.976
of trying to end someone's life and they were not successful at that, and then they transfer, you know, usually you're transferring a patient to a hospital to save their life, right? So Mm-hmm.
00:37:31.811 --> 00:37:39.057
how you know, how does this work that the state is trying to end this person's life, but then they're not successful at it?
00:37:39.057 --> 00:37:40.880
So then they transfer the person.
00:37:41.206 --> 00:37:55.427
to a hospital where clinicians will then save that person's life or at least try to save that person's life, only for what? For that person to then be transferred back to the you know what I'm saying? Like it's it's kind of confusing.
00:37:53.940 --> 00:37:54.940
Yeah.
00:37:55.563 --> 00:37:59.306
Yeah. I'm actually I'm I I'm really glad you brought that question up.
00:37:59.306 --> 00:38:10.295
I'll put a link in the show notes to a piece that I wrote ~ quite a while ago, maybe 2022, 2023, ~ about medical decision making and incarcerated patients.
00:38:10.295 --> 00:38:15.920
And you know, the reason that I'd written this had to do with people who were incarcerated who are brought to hospitals.
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:19.724
And there's a lot of misunderstanding.
00:38:19.938 --> 00:38:26.123
That people many people in the public think that because you're in jail, that you don't get to make your own health care decisions.
00:38:26.123 --> 00:38:28.385
Now, that's not supposed to be true.
00:38:28.385 --> 00:38:36.561
You know, your right to your right to privacy as an incarcerated person, your right to autonomous medical decision making is supposed to be preserved.
00:38:36.561 --> 00:38:47.940
That's not something that the state is supposed to take away with your incarceration, ~ in alignment with you know federal law and expectations around the care of of people who are incarcerated.
00:38:47.940 --> 00:38:48.940
Now.
00:38:49.182 --> 00:38:59.719
So it's it's an interesting question, right? Because to be do not resuscitate is a decision that a patient makes for themselves or their surrogate decision maker makes for them.
00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:15.427
And so for example, when we have patients in the hospital who are incarcerated, if the person from the jail or whatever says, no, we will make those decisions, like I'm the person I've had to call wardens before and been like, hey, get your get your people in line.
00:39:15.427 --> 00:39:17.543
This is illegal. And unless Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:39:17.648 --> 00:39:39.751
you have documentation From a judge that you are going to give us that says that you actually have some legal authority. The reality is that you that the prison does not have that legal authority. And so we really push for our patients to be able to make decisions for themselves and to to select surrogate decision makers to help make decisions for them if they can't for themselves.
00:39:39.751 --> 00:39:47.516
So in the case, so and this is also part of what's so critical about the fact that clinicians should not be involved in executing people, is because.
00:39:47.655 --> 00:39:51.456
This is a very confusing situation that makes no sense.
00:39:51.456 --> 00:39:57.744
The reason the public is confused is because what are nurses and doctors doing executing in an in a room to execute a person when Mm-hmm, mm hmm.
00:39:59.847 --> 00:40:06.324
they're not going to be keeping up with the other responsibilities they would have to respond in an emergency. And Mm-hmm.
00:40:05.769 --> 00:40:09.271
so the state can't make the patient DNR DNI.
00:40:09.271 --> 00:40:15.233
They're just not going to offer, the state's not going to offer that while they're doing an execution.
00:40:15.233 --> 00:40:24.773
~ But when you take the patient to the hospital, you have to assume that that person is full code, unless there is some document counter-documentation.
00:40:24.773 --> 00:40:33.003
And it is absolutely not the role of a local hospital to decide that they are going to complete the execution on behalf of the state.
00:40:32.202 --> 00:40:43.503
Right. Right. Yeah, that I saw a lot of people kind of thinking like, they're just gonna let her die, right? And I I mean, as a clinician who's obviously never had anything to do with executions, I was like, How could they do that? They can't do that.
00:40:43.503 --> 00:40:50.009
Like unless, as you said, there was some documentation that she didn't want that kind of intensive level of care.
00:40:50.009 --> 00:40:52.920
But yeah, I I I saw that there was a lot of confusion around that.
00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:53.920
Thank you for explaining.
00:40:54.382 --> 00:40:58.114
man, it makes me so angry. It makes me so angry.
00:40:58.114 --> 00:41:03.804
I wanted to bring up, you know, I love a book. Listeners, Mm-hmm.
00:41:03.278 --> 00:41:06.579
you know I love a book. I really wanted to bring this is a fabulous book.
00:41:06.579 --> 00:41:15.224
It was recommended to me by ~ a colleague who writes a lot about specifically issues around around executions. It's by someone named Corinna.
00:41:16.077 --> 00:41:21.001
Barrett Lane, and it's called Secrets of the Killing State: The Untold Story of Lethal Injection.
00:41:21.001 --> 00:41:32.431
For people who are interested in the things that I was just mentioning, you know, issues related to anesthesia, issues related to how these protocols came about and the failures of them.
00:41:32.431 --> 00:41:34.052
This is an excellent book.
00:41:34.052 --> 00:41:51.396
The other thing I wanted to mention, because just i in context, is that of course, around the time that this was happening is also when Trump decided to approve the military's first firing squad execution since World War Two.
00:41:51.396 --> 00:42:12.483
so the federal government has not used a firing squad since World War Two, and he has ~ approved the use of that on Former physician Nadal Hassan, who was a US psychiatrist who killed 13 people in Fort Hood, if folks remember that shooting from 2009.
00:42:12.483 --> 00:42:15.847
~ This may not happen for a very long time.
00:42:15.847 --> 00:42:29.838
There is somebody, and I apologize, I don't remember their name, who was where one of the Bush presidents had authorized ~ their death by lethal injection way back when, and that execution still has not taken place.
00:42:29.838 --> 00:42:33.980
So hopefully Did you say lethal injection or by firing squad?
00:42:33.936 --> 00:42:36.349
That was a lethal injection case back then.
00:42:36.349 --> 00:42:40.405
This is the first ~ firing squad case, as I said, since World War II.
00:42:40.405 --> 00:42:50.275
~ and then the other thing, you know, I There's a an excellent play that I saw when it was touring in the early two thousands called Exonerated.
00:42:50.275 --> 00:43:03.224
And it's really about ~ the work of, you know, the Innocence Project in terms of demonstrating how there are so many people who are on death row who are not guilty for one.
00:43:02.907 --> 00:43:03.907
Mm-hmm.
00:43:03.224 --> 00:43:13.411
And that's and that's not the story with that's not the story that about about Pike. I think the evidence is that she she did murder ~ Colleen Slemmer.
00:43:13.411 --> 00:43:18.389
I don't But but we have to have this system where it's not reliable.
00:43:18.389 --> 00:43:19.971
I mean, I don't think Mm-hmm.
00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:21.460
we should kill people to because they killed people.
00:43:21.460 --> 00:43:24.112
I just don't think that that's a logical conclusion.
00:43:24.112 --> 00:43:30.635
~ if we're a country that doesn't believe killing people is the right thing to do, it doesn't make sense that we would do it.
00:43:30.635 --> 00:43:31.811
We would allow the state to do it, Mm-hmm.
00:43:33.016 --> 00:43:39.057
and certainly not to be gleeful in it, as some people clearly are very supportive of this still.
00:43:39.057 --> 00:43:43.880
~ but but there's so many people who are on death row.
00:43:44.070 --> 00:43:47.170
Who are are innocent. And Mm-hmm.
00:43:46.641 --> 00:43:58.413
you go back and you know, the innocence project goes back and looks through their materials only to find that like the DNA is not theirs, there's no evidence. True, they they have an alibi that they're actually someplace Mm-hmm.
00:43:57.708 --> 00:44:04.940
else, but the state ignored that evidence or suppressed that evidence, or they did a shitty job because our justice system Yeah. Well is not just.
00:44:04.804 --> 00:44:13.362
and there's a lot of presumptions in particular about people who are people who are black, people who are brown, Mm-hmm. People who are poor.
00:44:12.108 --> 00:44:33.057
~ people who are poor, where I mean you see there's so many examples of police not really doing thorough investigations, jumping to conclusions, the district attorney taking that and running with it, a jury going along, and next thing you know, Look at well and then you look at this person is is being Sentenced to death.
00:44:33.146 --> 00:44:37.315
And then we look at the Cornell Seven case from last week and you Mm-hmm.
00:44:36.637 --> 00:44:45.429
have a piss poor investigation and you have a DA who's like,~ why bother? You know, and so these these these Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because they were promising young men, Alyssa.
00:44:46.686 --> 00:44:50.681
And these systems exist side by side, you know, these are the same systems.
00:44:50.862 --> 00:44:55.943
I I just watched the Eileen Wernos documentary on Netflix.
00:44:55.943 --> 00:45:04.128
~ I never saw, you know, ~ her story I think became very well known when Charlie Sterone played her in that movie Mm-hmm.
00:45:04.126 --> 00:45:06.246
Monster. I never saw the movie.
00:45:05.708 --> 00:45:08.311
Yeah. I did. It was intense.
00:45:06.246 --> 00:45:14.418
~ I I did not know the story at all and I have not done, just to be clear, I have not done a deep dive.
00:45:14.795 --> 00:45:16.826
I just watched this one documentary.
00:45:16.826 --> 00:45:23.230
And in this documentary, because of course she was ~ she was sentenced to death.
00:45:23.230 --> 00:45:31.835
and you know, she was a for folks who don't know, this is what I understand, she was a prostitute.
00:45:31.835 --> 00:45:46.333
She had a very difficult upbringing, left home, she was abused, all these things, she became a prostitute, and she Went or the first trial that she had was specifically about this one man and whether she had or hadn't killed this man.
00:45:46.333 --> 00:46:01.175
This man had a history of abusing people of violence when she said during the trial that he was attacking her and she basically killed him in self-defense. Nobody believed her.
00:46:01.175 --> 00:46:25.126
The district attorney refused to look into this person's history, even though they had he had a previous arrest ~ as an adult, mind you. ~ Anyway, it's another example of how flawed our justice system is, because if that trial for that first case had gone differently, then she may still be alive.
00:46:25.126 --> 00:46:39.108
And instead, what you know, the process of going through that, at least as it's presented in this documentary, was so difficult for her that then when they charge her, she had killed multiple men, ~ that when they charged her with the other.
00:46:39.958 --> 00:46:43.119
Cases, she didn't even want to put up a defense or anything.
00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:51.422
She just said, get it over with, kill me, let's move on. ~ and that just happens to be an example that was in my mind because I saw it recently.
00:46:51.422 --> 00:46:58.253
But we I think rational people in this country know that we do not have a justice system that functions properly.
00:46:58.253 --> 00:47:06.797
So to then give that same system the power to kill people, it does not compute for me. It does not make sense.
00:47:06.797 --> 00:47:17.286
Every week or two we hear about someone who was convicted inappropriately, spent decades in prison and has finally been released.
00:47:17.286 --> 00:47:24.949
All of those people could have been killed and would never have had a chance to get out. It's already unjust enough.
00:47:24.949 --> 00:47:28.431
It's incredibly unjust that they had to spend any time in prison.
00:47:28.431 --> 00:47:40.309
But to have stolen them from their family and their loved ones based on a system that cannot reasonably and reliably adjudicate who has actually done what, it just makes no sense.
00:47:41.101 --> 00:47:42.101
Yeah.
00:47:45.623 --> 00:47:54.360
I agree. For for folks who want to learn ~ more about Christa Pike, I mean, she her I mean, we're we're obviously having all these conversations.
00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:56.242
She herself was a victim of child rape.
00:47:56.242 --> 00:48:03.539
She was assaulted many times. ~ this crime that she was convicted of she did when she was a teenager.
00:48:03.539 --> 00:48:20.583
~ these these issues are connected,~ in addition to what is considered just in America or not. So I will put ~ a link to I ironically, it's it's Cornell Law School that's put together a really great collection.
00:48:19.777 --> 00:48:20.777
Yeah.
00:48:20.583 --> 00:48:26.257
I know we're we're we're not very happy with Cornell generally, but it's the Cornell Center on death penalty worldwide.
00:48:26.257 --> 00:48:32.063
And they've put together a collection of information about this case that I think is particularly helpful.
00:48:32.063 --> 00:48:34.074
And so I will include that as well in the show notes.
00:48:35.532 --> 00:48:38.302
Great. ~ well, thank you so much for going over that.
00:48:38.302 --> 00:48:43.574
I know this case has been in the news and there's been a lot of misunderstandings about it.
00:48:43.574 --> 00:48:46.317
So thank you for going through all of that.
00:48:46.317 --> 00:48:58.744
~ there's some, you know, other news stories that we wanted to just bring to folks' attention, ~ things that happened that we won't have, you know, too much time to talk about today, but just to put on your radar as they say.
00:48:59.088 --> 00:49:02.309
There has been another person who died from measles.
00:49:02.309 --> 00:49:05.891
Again, measles is a completely vaccine-preventable illness.
00:49:05.891 --> 00:49:08.063
This person was not vaccinated.
00:49:08.063 --> 00:49:19.679
This person was 20 years old and had leukemia, could not be vaccinated because of the treatments they were getting for their leukemia, ~ and then contracted measles and died from that.
00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:27.003
And as we've talked about before, this is another example of why public health isn't you do you.
00:49:28.099 --> 00:49:35.032
And one individual's choice to not get vaccinated or not have their kids affects the other individuals in that community.
00:49:35.032 --> 00:49:38.472
And we know, yes, babies can't get vaccinated.
00:49:38.472 --> 00:49:43.434
We previously talked about a pregnant person ~ who could not get vaccinated.
00:49:43.434 --> 00:49:57.148
Now we have this 20-year-old who did not, again, vaccine preventable illness should not have died from measles, who is no longer alive because of the lack of vaccination, the lack of herd immunity.
00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:02.920
in their community. So Yeah, I would say I would say our podcast is strongly opposed to DIY public health.
00:50:04.909 --> 00:50:11.188
Yeah. I think that's correct. ~ I We should be able to put on T shirts, you know, when we're ready for merch.
00:50:11.717 --> 00:50:17.596
Yeah, we need like a DIY public health and like that red X, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:50:14.757 --> 00:50:19.858
or not even an X, but the diagonal line through it. Yeah, no, we don't believe in that.
00:50:19.858 --> 00:50:30.541
another public health related or kind of health-related anyway, update is, you know, a while back, months ago, folks may remember we talked about this study that ~ RFK Jr.
00:50:30.541 --> 00:50:38.403
had approved funding for with these researchers, European researchers who wanted to go to this small ~ country, Guinea-Bissau.
00:50:38.880 --> 00:51:04.175
And do a completely unethical study of withholding hepatitis B vaccine from~ newborns there. There was a lot of attention brought to this decision making, and ultimately, for many reasons, the study was not allowed to move forward at that time, including the government of that country, Guinea-Bissau, saying, No, this doesn't seem like a thing that we want you to do, Because it's totally unethical.
00:51:01.934 --> 00:51:02.934
this is unethical.
00:51:04.655 --> 00:51:08.789
Yes. And we You know, we did a deep dive on that whole study before on the pod.
00:51:08.789 --> 00:51:12.490
Well, apparently it's now back on the table.
00:51:12.490 --> 00:51:21.925
they are trying to revive that study and give more money or give money again to those researchers. I was very upset to see that.
00:51:21.925 --> 00:51:23.445
Like we already went down this road.
00:51:23.445 --> 00:51:29.027
We had lots of discussions, and I don't mean just like you and I, but like as a society about No, like yeah.
00:51:29.038 --> 00:51:32.650
why this was inappropriate. And they I guess they thought we'd forget.
00:51:32.650 --> 00:51:33.650
I don't know.
00:51:33.648 --> 00:51:35.748
But so that's happening. We'll keep an eye on that.
00:51:35.748 --> 00:51:54.677
~ I also wanted to give an update on Nolan Wells, who we've talked about, ~ this young teenager who had gone out with friends on 4th of July. And although his white friends all made it back home safely, he as a a young black man did not.
00:51:54.677 --> 00:52:00.070
~ now, I it's been a few weeks since we talked about it, so I just want to give highlights.
00:52:00.918 --> 00:52:17.393
One is that we do now have the autopsy results from ~ from the examination, and there was no fluid in his lungs, although the ~ conclusion that some have come to was that he had drowned.
00:52:17.393 --> 00:52:25.735
There was no fluid in her in his lungs, and there were two wounds on the back of his head that looked like, you know, kind of contusions, is my understanding.
00:52:25.735 --> 00:52:39.280
and I am not of pathologist, but I did ask ~ on social media of our, you know, physician networks whether that makes any sense.
00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:55.434
I also looked up what are the typical findings in a drowning and it's not, it's pretty intuitive. You would expect to see fluid in the lungs and there and there wasn't any Well and usually people get like pulmonary edema too.
00:52:56.547 --> 00:53:03.233
Yeah, there's lots of things. I have a I can put a link to an article that kind of typical pathological findings in a drowning.
00:53:02.416 --> 00:53:03.632
Mm, mm.
00:53:03.672 --> 00:53:07.255
And those d those were not present in this case.
00:53:07.255 --> 00:53:17.893
~ and yet the FBI has concluded there is no need to do an investigation because it was a drowning. ~ even though that's not really what the pathologist Hm.
00:53:17.764 --> 00:53:32.148
report concludes. ~ so long story short is that this poor family continues to seek the information that they have every right to which is to know what happened to their son on that day.
00:53:32.148 --> 00:53:43.695
And so we'll keep following and share important updates as they become I'm to I'm gonna turn it over to you before I come back with my last one because my last one will be at least a little bit funny.
00:53:46.181 --> 00:54:01.871
Okay, well, for folks who may or may not have seen it, there's a article in the Atlantic on the Ven mitochondrial condition that we've seeing in Venezuelan children andor children of maternal Venezuelan descent.
00:54:01.871 --> 00:54:11.326
We talked about this many months ago on the show, and ~ you know, more research is coming out, and there's a really good article that I'll put a link to if you want to learn more about it.
00:54:11.778 --> 00:54:16.411
~ in a in a storytelling form, hearing from a family that was really impacted by this.
00:54:16.871 --> 00:54:36.097
Mm-hmm. Perfect. Okay, the last thing is I have really come to the conclusion that Pete Hexeth has a humiliation kink because he keeps, I'm serious, because he keeps inviting himself to these military workouts where he looks a fool. And so he did it again this week.
00:54:36.097 --> 00:54:40.460
There are multiple clips ~ that you can find online of him.
00:54:40.460 --> 00:54:43.873
One is one is they're right, they're running around a racetrack.
00:54:44.452 --> 00:54:49.014
And it's like all these military people, and then there's like a big pause.
00:54:49.014 --> 00:54:50.706
You know, the camera's stationary.
00:54:50.567 --> 00:54:51.782
Cause they're waiting for him.
00:54:50.706 --> 00:54:52.016
You see all these military people.
00:54:52.177 --> 00:54:58.402
There's a big pause in in the in the in the field, like you you see no one for like a couple seconds.
00:54:58.402 --> 00:55:02.125
And then here comes Pete Heggs, like well after everyone else.
00:55:02.125 --> 00:55:06.106
There's another clip of them doing, I think they're supposed to be doing bear crawls.
00:55:06.106 --> 00:55:09.019
He does not look like he's doing a proper bear craw crawl.
00:55:09.019 --> 00:55:11.050
But anyway, I think that's what they're trying to do.
00:55:11.050 --> 00:55:12.442
And he looks again.
00:55:12.826 --> 00:55:28.143
Terrible. And then and then the other clip that's there's multiple, but the last one that I'll bring up is that it looks like he's now at at this pull-up station and there's someone counting down and it's like him and some of these other military folks, and they're supposed to looks like they're about to do pull-ups.
00:55:28.143 --> 00:55:32.867
And then at the last second, they're like three, two, one. He's like, I'm just gonna go say hi to these guys over here.
00:55:32.867 --> 00:55:37.039
And then there's like people walking by or running by, and he like gives them high fives and stuff.
00:55:37.039 --> 00:55:39.590
In the meantime, the people he was just with start doing pull-ups.
00:55:39.590 --> 00:55:41.552
It really looks like, I mean.
00:55:41.976 --> 00:55:43.266
Maybe there's more to the story.
00:55:43.266 --> 00:55:59.559
But it really looks like he was like, Yeah, I'm already tired. I just want you to remember that this is the guy who said, No fatties, no trannies, no weirdos, no beirdos, just warriors. Just war I mean, What a disgusting person. God, he's so gross.
00:55:58.693 --> 00:56:03.695
yes, he is a disgusting person. And he has shown time and again that he's not a warrior.
00:56:03.695 --> 00:56:10.818
So even with his own kind of guidelines for who belongs in the military, it is not him. Anyway.
00:56:11.335 --> 00:56:17.711
That's ~ that's Pete Hexeth, who's yes, terrible, terrible person. But let's now talk about good things.
00:56:17.711 --> 00:56:20.014
What would you what would you like?
00:56:19.358 --> 00:56:20.358
Finally.
00:56:20.114 --> 00:56:23.579
Yes. After after like an hour of torture.
00:56:23.579 --> 00:56:27.362
~ and now for something positive.
00:56:27.362 --> 00:56:30.996
what is your recommendation for folks for our take two?
00:56:30.478 --> 00:56:31.996
Okay. So Call me in the morning second.
00:56:32.610 --> 00:56:37.713
I recently saw a handful of poems that were written about AI.
00:56:37.713 --> 00:56:43.976
And I've I'm like, really, you know, the the news sucks, as we know very intimately on this on this here's show.
00:56:43.976 --> 00:56:46.257
And so I've been trying to read more poetry.
00:56:46.257 --> 00:56:53.347
And so, you know, if I come across some poems that are interesting, I think that's, you know, I like to go for it and make Sure.
00:56:52.672 --> 00:56:57.204
myself slow down. So ~ there's this poet I really like named Kate Bear.
00:56:57.838 --> 00:57:01.038
And she wrote one. I'm just gonna read it for you if that's okay.
00:57:01.038 --> 00:57:04.708
Okay. It's called Failed Chat GPT.
00:57:07.268 --> 00:57:11.211
Write a poem in free verse in the form of a better poet.
00:57:11.211 --> 00:57:17.737
Invite the audience to wonder, avoid metaphor and simile. Make them second guess their lover.
00:57:17.737 --> 00:57:24.583
Bracket, allow time, bracket, allow risks, bracket, allow sex, bracket, allow brevity.
00:57:24.583 --> 00:57:32.369
Give up your darlings, get rid of pomp and wonder, tell the truth, something mortal, something we can't get for free.
00:57:33.869 --> 00:58:02.427
I thought it was fun. It made me think I was saying, I saw my friend ~ at up at Hardly Strictly Bluegrass last weekend and ~ and we saw Gillian Welch play and I was like, Yeah, man, all this AI stuff totally she had this really beautiful song back in the early two thousands called Everything Is Free, which was about Napster and how like musicians were just all their work was being stolen and being sold and you know, or given away or whatever. ~ anyway, I'll put some links to some poems.
00:58:04.014 --> 00:58:07.327
Okay. Thank you. ~ What about you?
00:58:08.815 --> 00:58:10.777
I had two things. I'm gonna save one.
00:58:10.777 --> 00:58:25.769
Okay. I did not know that there's an Iranian woman who's been like swimming bodies of water. ~ and she just swam the English channel~ successfully, setting some kind of record.
00:58:25.769 --> 00:58:29.681
Hold on, let me pull up the actual details.
00:58:29.681 --> 00:58:32.972
Floating, loading.
00:58:31.527 --> 00:58:36.643
and while you do that I have I got you a gift. So while you look I'm gonna find my gift~ for you.
00:58:36.440 --> 00:58:38.215
well that's so nice.
00:58:38.344 --> 00:58:47.291
So this woman's name is Raha Ahaban, and she swam for nearly 20 hours to become the first Iranian woman to swim across the English Channel.
00:58:47.291 --> 00:58:49.572
And she did this last month. She's an academic.
00:58:49.572 --> 00:59:00.061
she also became the first Iranian person to hold the title of Triple Crown Open Water Swimming, having finished the 20-mile California Catalina Channel.
00:59:00.541 --> 00:59:02.012
the twenty one mile Well.
00:59:01.585 --> 00:59:04.878
English Channel and the thirty mile twenty bridges of Manhattan.
00:59:05.860 --> 00:59:07.972
I can't imagine swimming one mile.
00:59:13.195 --> 00:59:17.661
That I have done. time and so she's No, I I did it I did it in high school, a long time ago.
00:59:17.121 --> 00:59:26.262
so she she's like swimming in the dark. I'm not interested in being an open in an open of water in the dark. Just that's me.
00:59:26.262 --> 00:59:28.594
I'm a little too scared, too much of a scaredy cat.
00:59:28.056 --> 00:59:32.545
But this that this lady's a lot cooler than we are and also braver.
00:59:33.349 --> 00:59:35.250
Clearly. Yes. Absolutely.
00:59:35.849 --> 00:59:58.277
And what I love is I'll put a clip, I'll put a link to a clip where she talks about she's ~ whatever body shape one may have envisioned for her as I've been telling the story, it's probably not correct. and so she talks in this clip about how important it is to not have preconceived notions about what kind of person can do these Mm, mm-hmm.
00:59:58.306 --> 01:00:03.902
and that women should have the freedom to wear whatever swimsuit we want to wear, no matter what our body looks like.
01:00:03.902 --> 01:00:10.097
And anyway, it's a very positive, empowering message. As an Iranian woman, I'm like, this lady is very cool.
01:00:10.097 --> 01:00:19.543
~ as you said. ~ anyway, so I'll put a link to that little positive news story~ to give people a little bit of inspiration.
01:00:18.454 --> 01:00:22.114
Excellent. Well, do you want to see what I what I got for you?
01:00:19.543 --> 01:00:23.257
yeah. Sure.
01:00:22.114 --> 01:00:25.208
I I was at I was at the library and they had Yes. I was not expecting a gift.
01:00:26.666 --> 01:00:44.639
an entire the this entire plage of just ~ a page, an entire shelf right at the front of all banned books and they had them all wrapped up and so you could like pick, you know, they were encouraging people to read these books and just talking about why these books were banned. ~ and Mm-hmm.
01:00:43.994 --> 01:00:47.545
they had some buttons to give away.
01:00:48.597 --> 01:00:50.719
And I got this persepolis button for you.
01:00:51.137 --> 01:00:54.123
~ my gosh, amazing. Thank you so much.
01:00:54.123 --> 01:00:55.989
I love that.
01:00:55.637 --> 01:00:58.114
Anyway, I saw that and I was like, I know who needs this.
01:00:58.550 --> 01:01:01.853
Yes, yes, Persepolis by Marjan Satrapy.
01:01:01.853 --> 01:01:03.775
Thank you so much. That's very sweet.
01:01:03.394 --> 01:01:04.394
Wonderful.
01:01:04.056 --> 01:01:06.172
all right. Well I think Hmm.
01:01:05.813 --> 01:01:07.615
that's it for this week's episode.
01:01:07.615 --> 01:01:11.300
If you didn't like what you heard, this has been the Goop Podcast.
01:01:11.300 --> 01:01:17.586
If you liked it, don't forget to subscribe to the present illness, leave us a review, please tell other folks to tune in as well.
01:01:18.378 --> 01:01:21.974
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01:01:21.974 --> 01:01:24.168
Don't do that. Follow Ha ha ha.
01:01:24.208 --> 01:01:29.697
us on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube at the Present Illness to stay on top of all of our TPI related news.
01:01:30.364 --> 01:01:34.943
We will be back next week with more headlines, hot takes and doom scrolling, hopefully wrapped in some laughs.
01:01:35.242 --> 01:01:37.152
Until then, agitate, hydrate, take a nap.
01:01:37.152 --> 01:01:38.932
We'll see you next time on the present illness.
01:01:38.932 --> 01:01:46.175
Production by Arghavan Salles, and Alyssa Burgart, editing by Alyssa Burgart, social media by Arghavan Salles, original music by Joseph Uphoff.
01:01:46.175 --> 01:01:49.186
Don't take medical advice from random people on a podcast.
01:01:49.186 --> 01:01:53.277
Shows for informational purposes, it's meant to be fun, and it is certainly not medical advice.
01:01:53.277 --> 01:01:56.018
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