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A successful career, in my view, comes from three things: talent,
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good luck, and good decision-making.
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Let's assume you're talented, and let's assume luck is out of your hands.
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The lever that you're left with is your decision-making.
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How can you make the strongest decisions possible, whether you're
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recruiting or looking to get recruited?
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Hello, and welcome to The Get.
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I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
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I spend my days recruiting CMOs and VPs of Marketing in B2B SaaS.
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My tagline is I place the make-money marketing leaders,
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not the make-it-pretty ones.
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With my role, I have a front-row seat to the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of
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today's top marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
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And now with The Get you do, too.
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The Get is designed to drive smart decisions around recruiting and
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leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
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This season, we focus on the race to reduce risk.
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When it comes to a match between a company and a CMO, how can you
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find out what you need to find out before saying yes so that you make
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a match that sticks and flourishes?
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Today, you'll hear from me on flaws in decision-making to
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avoid in the recruiting process.
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Then, you'll hear more perspectives from my guest, Melissa Sargeant,
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who has been a CMO multiple times.
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The first part of making a good decision is realizing that
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there's a decision to be made.
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Sometimes it doesn't feel like it, but with many things around
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careers and hiring we do most often have more choice than we think.
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The second part is having a good process for decision-making.
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As we have seen with other episodes, it's important to have some framework,
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some key things that you examine intentionally before saying yes.
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And the third part is avoiding getting tripped up with your decision-making.
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In my executive search role, I have seen people fall into a bunch of
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different decision-making traps.
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Let's review some of these, and as I go through these, consider
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which ones you have fallen prey to.
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The first is trusting someone else's due diligence without doing your own.
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Like when you're hiring a marketing leader, and you trust a reference
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from someone you know who has worked with the person before so much so
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that you skip your own due diligence.
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It can also happen when you're a CMO candidate and you already
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know the CEO or CFO or CRO.
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You think, "That person is there.
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They did their research and they're smart and we click.
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So it is likely a great fit for me."
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You scrutinize the match less than you would otherwise.
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A second flaw in decision-making is thinking that the company
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has a greater appetite for transformation than it actually does.
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Every CMO needs to navigate what I call the Peacemaker/Changemaker Paradox.
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They have to thread that needle between making change and doing so in
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a way that brings the company along.
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Sometimes, the company is just not ready for the change that someone can bring.
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Another flaw - underestimating the amount of stretch in the role, thinking
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that the new marketing leader will be as coachable as they need to be or that
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the CEO has the capacity or ability to upskill the new head of marketing.
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The next flaw is representative bias, thinking that this
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situation is so much like another.
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Oh, it's the same size company, the same investors, so the same
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playbook I used then will work now.
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Or the same person who did this in another company will succeed here.
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These factors can be good indicators, but they don't necessarily predict success.
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Another flaw is commitment bias.
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I put so much into this, so I should continue.
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It's like continuing to wait for a bus that isn't coming.
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Staying in a role for too long once it is clear it is just not
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a fit, is an example of this.
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Or, investing a lot of time into a recruiting process and
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wanting it to just be over.
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So you say yes even when there are big reservations.
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The next flaw is confirmation bias, looking for information to
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support our initial impression.
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For example, you have great interviews with someone.
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You feel a good vibe, but you haven't really seen the person in action, and
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you haven't tapped into things like behavioral assessments to vet the match.
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Another flaw - falling in love with the product instead of the product market fit.
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Or thinking that because you know the ICP or you are the ICP, it'll be easy.
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The last flaw that comes to mind is falling in love with the
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company that someone worked at.
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Like, yay, I'm going to get to work with the person who led marketing at company
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X, Y, Z, rather than focusing on how they approach their role and their work style.
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Remember, sometimes a company is successful because of somebody's
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contribution in marketing, and sometimes it is successful
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despite their contribution.
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If you are just as fascinated by decision science as me, there are
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lots of great resources on it.
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There's a fabulous book I recommend to many clients and candidates.
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It's called Decisive by Chip and Dan Heath.
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Check it out if you are facing a big career or life decision.
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Now, let's bring on my guest, Melissa Sargeant.
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Melissa has been CMO four times, most recently at AlphaSense and previously
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at Litmus, SugarCRM, and ChannelAdvisor.
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Before that, she was in senior marketing roles at Avalara and CA.
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She has driven great scale-up journeys in her career, and I'm
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really impressed by her sheer range as a leader and as a marketer.
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She knows a lot about decision-making in recruiting, both hiring and getting hired.
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So Melissa, welcome to The Get.
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I'm glad to have you here.
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Thank you so very much.
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I'm really excited to be here.
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Thanks for the invitation.
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So you have been a CMO four times now, and I'm wondering if you can look back
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to your, your previous self, you know, before you started your CMO journey.
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What do you know now that you didn't know before your first CMO gig?
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As it relates to reducing risk in the recruiting process,
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which is our theme here.
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I think the main thing that I didn't understand was that I needed to map out in
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that first role as I was interviewing for it, the things that were important to me.
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So, for example, for some people, as a CMO, it might be really important to
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report into the CEO so that you can have a strategic seat at that table and really
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be there as part of the executive team.
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It might also be important, very important to really understand things like product
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market fit because we get that, you know, the most glowy, best pictures of
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what's going on from the product side of the house as we're interviewing.
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And I wish I had, I still would've made the same decision I made, but now I
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know that there's this list of these immutable things that I will not negotiate
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upon that are critical to my success in the role, critical to the success
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of the team, and being able to recruit people to that organization once I get
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there and that I have to stick to that and not let someone kind of talk me
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out of some things that are important.
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Really, because it's ultimately gonna drive the success in that role and
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the outcomes you're able to drive.
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That's fascinating.
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So have you ever had somebody try to talk you out of something where your gut was
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saying, "Oh no, I'm gonna stick with me."
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And then, you know, you're kind of like trying to see the logic
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of what they were saying, but also your gut was saying something else?
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Yes, and specifically as it relates to product market fit.
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It was an organization that had grown really quickly, had product market
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fit, and then as it happens in the market, things are always changing.
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The only constant we can manage is change, and product market fit started to slip.
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And so it was very clear to me that that was happening.
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And so when I brought it up during the interview process, they tried to convince
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me, no, it's really just a pipeline issue.
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And I said, I agree that you have a pipeline issue, but the pipeline issue
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is related to product market fit.
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And I can come in and help you work through the product market fit issues,
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but we all have to be intellectually honest together that that's the core
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issue here, and we can work through that.
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And then, over time, that's gonna help us from a pipeline perspective.
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But if we don't have a shared understanding of what the real
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issue is, in six months, they're not gonna be happy with me.
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In six months, I'm not gonna be happy with them.
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And, and no one really moves the needle forward.
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Yeah, it's a great point because product market fit, sometimes companies are
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like, you either have it or you don't.
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But it seems like you have it mostly but never perfectly.
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And then it changes, and you know, like maybe you had it a few months
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ago but things have changed.
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And now you need to find a new, just a new place to sit with product market fit.
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Yeah, it, it's definitely not one and done.
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It's, you know, it's something that's continually evolving and you have
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to really keep that top of mind.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So can you double click here on, maybe share a couple of things,
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one or two things that you have done before saying yes to a job?
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Something you have asked in particular, or information you found out that
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others could learn from as they are looking to mitigate their risk?
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Definitely.
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One thing is as we go through these processes, and it may sound familiar to
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people, you go into these interviews, whether it's the first one or you're,
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you know, in your fifth or sixth round, and they'll map out the plan for you.
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Say, here's the agenda.
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I'm gonna talk about some things that the interviewer's gonna share some things.
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Then, they're gonna ask some questions, and I'm gonna leave you, candidate,
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five to ten minutes at the end of this to answer any questions that you have.
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And I think that that's common at the beginning of the process
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because you're trying to figure out synergies, does this make sense?
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But as a candidate, you need much, much more time to be able to figure out if
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this is the right opportunity for you.
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And so what I have done when I find myself in those situations, and if I'm continuing
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to advance through the process, is I will put together my list of questions, and
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whenever that next interview is coming up, particularly if it's gonna be my manager,
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the CEO, I will write out the questions.
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I will send it forty-eight hours in advance of the interview and say, I know
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you probably have some agenda items that you wanna talk through with me, but here
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are a list of questions to help guide our discussion and things that I'm really
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interested in going further in with you.
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And if we're not able to get to it in this next discussion, I would like
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to make a request that we schedule a follow-up discussion so we can
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both get through these questions.
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My view is that a good manager, a good hiring manager, should be
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excited that the person has been thoughtful about this and wants to
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go through this process with them.
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I really like that.
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I actually had a client once who, her approach for interviewing, she was a
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CMO who was hiring people on her team, and her approach to interviewing was,
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the first conversation was all about her answering questions that the candidate
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had, and the second conversation was her actually interviewing the person.
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Because she felt like once they were smarter about the business, they
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would be smarter about the interview.
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It was a bigger investment on her time, you know, on her part, but these
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were vetted candidates beforehand.
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I'm wondering, can you share maybe a question or two that a CEO
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has reacted really strongly to?
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That you've done in your forty-eight hours before or during the interview?
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So the areas I really like to dig deep into are the dynamics around how
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that executive team works together.
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I will usually start at a higher level and ask about how does
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strategy get developed here?
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And often people will say something like, we do OKRs, or we do the V2MOM framework.
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Great.
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I love frameworks.
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How do you get there?
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What happens before that comes on paper?
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Oh, we go on an offsite.
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Fantastic.
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What does that offsite look like?
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Do you, Ms.
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CEO, come to that meeting with documentation that you've put
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together in terms of your goals and here's how you see the strategy?
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Do you have each of your executive team members come prepared with, you
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know, a presentation or a talk track on what they see the strategy is?
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How does that happen?
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It's very telling about the dynamics of that organization because what I've seen
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is some very top-down structures where the CEO, or maybe it's a founder CEO,
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is, you know, very common, certainly in my space, has a, is the visionary in the
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company and they're the ones, they're the person that's looking around corners.
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So they have a very clear view of what they think that strategy should be.
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Or perhaps it's a more mature organization and all the key stakeholders, all the
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key executives come with what they think.
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They've done their research and they've gotten their feedback from customers
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and they come to the table with that.
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How that process happens and the discussions that happen around it
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is incredible insight on how that team works together on a daily
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basis and what you can expect to see in your executive team meetings.
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Because in those meetings, my view is that everyone should be talking.
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And some organizations, if you see or if you hear, it seems like there's one person
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who talks the most and others are just listening and maybe asking a question.
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That's something you want to understand a bit more about because if everybody really
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has a strategic seat at that table, how that process happens is really critical.
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The part two of that that I will ask them is, how do you disagree?
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You get lots of different responses to that.
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In a healthy working environment, there is a level of disagreement that's
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necessary to move the company forward.
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It can be done in a respectful and professional way, but it should be a red
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flag for candidates if they see those interactions, and if you feel like you
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get into these spirited discussions and then you go away from that meeting, and
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if you have to spend the next two weeks repairing your relationship with your
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colleagues, it's probably not a healthy organization that celebrates and wants
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those diverse voices at the table.
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So for me, I really wanna understand how do we work together?
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And that can be a challenging question for them to answer because
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there's so many facets to that.
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One of the examples I typically bring up is say, okay, how do you disagree?
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Like what happens when you're on very different sides.
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Do you go through this debating process and as the CEO you're listening to
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this and then you make the decision and you have a contract and how
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you're gonna interact with each other and it's, we disagree and commit?
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What does that look like for your organization?
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If they haven't thought that through, that's something that, you
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know, you need to be aware of as a candidate going into that situation.
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If they have a real, like, yes, we absolutely disagree and commit and
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that's how we're gonna interact with each other on a regular basis.
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So fascinating.
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Follow up question, are you looking for the kind of structure of decision-making
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and, and fighting to be set before you walk in and then you kind of inherit that?
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Or are you looking for a situation where you, as a CMO, are going to
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influence that if it's not totally bait?
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You know, 'cause those are two different ways of reacting.
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You know, the inheriting it versus kind of promulgating it.
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It's a little bit of both in that I want to understand how they
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operate today so I can think through how I'm gonna best engage with
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them as a group and individually.
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If the company's just not at that place, and I work at a lot of, have worked
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at a lot of earlier stage companies or high-growth companies where you're
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growing so fast you don't always have time to figure out all this management
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stuff that underpins the business.
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I wanna be able to have a voice and have a discussion around these things.
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And there's lots of training and books and things that we can do as
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leaders to get better at it because, ultimately, that's a key part of our job.
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The rest of the organization trusts us to get this strategy right.
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They trust us to work together as productive partners so that they
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can take that cue from us and go and do the execution elements
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that ladder up to that strategy.
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Right.
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Right.
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Makes sense.
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I love those questions.
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It's so, because I feel like with those two questions about how is strategy
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set and how do you disagree, you could just ask those two and that could
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be like two hours of conversation right there and a ton of learning.
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So, that's great.
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Let's talk about flaws in decision-making.
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I'd love for you to share your perspective, both on the side
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of having gotten recruited and having recruited teams before.
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Can you talk about maybe some, you know, top flaws in decision-making
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that you've seen or that you think people should be most wary of?
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And maybe it's something that you've, you know, kind of done battle with yourself.
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Curious to hear your take there.
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I will start from the latter part of that because I've made several
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mistakes in this process over the years.
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I think it's, it's trusting your gut.
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Your gut is your truth.
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And one of the words I think that is overused a bit today,
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but I'll say it, red flags.
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When you see something and you're like, that just doesn't quite feel
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right, or I don't understand that.
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For me, I know that because I'm a tech geek, I will tend to overlook
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these, you know, red flags.
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And I've had certain situations where they weren't red flags.
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I would say it was like this beacon of light with sparkles
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and fireworks saying, "Melissa!
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Danger, Melissa!
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Danger, Melissa!"
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And I will have overlooked it because I would be enamored with
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some other part of the organization, or I really liked the team and, you
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00:20:08
know, I would second guess myself.
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00:20:09
I'm, I'm being too critical here.
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00:20:12
Now, I'm incredibly intentional about that, that if I see a red
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00:20:18
flag, and I know it's a red flag because I feel it in my gut.
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00:20:21
Something doesn't feel right.
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00:20:23
And that's where your truth is.
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00:20:26
And I think that's true for both if you're interviewing candidates and
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00:20:31
something comes up and it doesn't quite feel right around that, or if you are the
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00:20:37
person that's interviewing for the role.
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00:20:40
And the way I manage that, personally, is I will remind myself, and sometimes
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00:20:45
I even put a sticky note on my display that says, "Stay curious."
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00:20:50
And for me that means keep asking questions.
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00:20:55
Get a little more curiosity.
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00:20:58
Get more clarity.
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00:21:00
See if there's something that you're misunderstanding there or
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00:21:04
there's some information that you don't have around that red flag.
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00:21:09
But if you can't get it and you still have that feeling, you have to honor it.
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00:21:15
And that can be really, really hard.
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00:21:17
If it's, you know, a company that you're super excited about.
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00:21:21
We're in a time now where it's really competitive for roles
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00:21:27
and you're excited about that.
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00:21:30
But every time, whether it was a role that I chose or a candidate that I
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00:21:37
was hiring, and that red flag, that twinge I get in my stomach was ignored,
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00:21:44
I paid for it every single time.
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00:21:49
Yeah.
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00:21:50
Yeah.
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00:21:51
You know, I have a coach who told me once something really smart.
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00:21:54
She said, "Your gut doesn't speak English."
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00:21:58
So I love how you're talking about kind of interrogating your gut, right?
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00:22:01
It's like the gut has to have the space to say its truth, and you have to realize
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00:22:07
that it's talking, and then you have to realize it's not talking in English,
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00:22:12
or whatever language you, you speak.
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00:22:14
And then it's, oh, let me try to translate for it and with it and
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00:22:18
interrogate it to, uh, to figure out what it's trying to tell me.
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00:22:24
That just stuck with me so, so much.
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00:22:27
And I like what you're saying.
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00:22:28
It's almost like when you get married, you know, it's like, oh, there's this
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00:22:31
little thing, but are you okay with that little thing becoming like a really
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00:22:35
big thing, potentially, over time?
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00:22:37
[Chuckling] Exactly.
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00:22:38
Because - right - because what's a small little, you know, gut
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00:22:41
question mark initially becomes a bigger question mark over time.
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00:22:45
Yeah.
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00:22:46
Well said.
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00:22:47
So it sounds like for you, you know, the flaw in decision-making
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00:22:50
is just not trusting the gut and, and not following the feelings.
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00:22:54
Are there any others that you've seen, in particular, you know, show
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00:22:58
up when hiring or getting hired?
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00:23:01
So a lot of times we'll get candidates whom have been recommended to us by
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00:23:08
people with whom we've worked in the past, or maybe they're at the company.
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00:23:13
And that's always great because, you know, in general, I think great
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00:23:17
people tend to attract great people.
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00:23:20
We still have to go through the same process with them and not necessarily
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00:23:25
give them an advantage in that scenario.
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00:23:30
Because if they were great in some other organization with that person
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00:23:36
- every organization is different.
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00:23:37
Every culture is gonna be different.
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00:23:40
How organizations make decisions, how people engage with each other, the culture
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00:23:46
on that team could be quite different.
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00:23:49
It doesn't necessarily translate into success in that next role.
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00:23:55
It's great to get that feedback and it's a place for you to ask lots
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00:23:59
of questions and learn more, but I intentionally, now, again, it's
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00:24:06
a mistake I've made in the past.
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00:24:08
I don't start when I'm looking at a slate of candidates automatically adding
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00:24:14
points to that person because, oh, they know this person and I love that person.
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00:24:20
I would work with them a hundred times, and if they say they're perfect for
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00:24:24
this, then you know, I trust them.
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00:24:27
They might, I'm sure that person is fantastic.
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00:24:30
It just doesn't mean that that's automatically gonna translate into
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00:24:33
the role that you're recruiting for.
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00:24:36
Or for you as a candidate that you're going into that the same
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00:24:40
thing is gonna be true for you.
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00:24:43
Yeah, yeah.
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00:24:45
Well said.
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00:24:46
Thank you for sharing.
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00:24:47
I'd love to also get your take, for people who are new in a CMO role, they
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00:24:52
often come into an organization that's kind of skeptical about marketing.
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00:24:55
So do you have any tips for once somebody has gotten the job, and assuming it's the
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00:24:59
right job, how do they turn the company from being skeptical about marketing
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00:25:03
to being supportive about marketing?
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00:25:06
Trust is built through transparency.
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00:25:09
And a lot of CMOs come into organizations - I joke that,
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00:25:15
why do they always hire us last?
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00:25:18
I feel like in every role it's like, "We got everything else in order, Melissa.
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00:25:22
Now, can you just come and like, you know, you've got that magic dust
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00:25:26
that you carry around with you and sprinkle it over here and in 90 days,
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00:25:32
you know, everything will be better."
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00:25:35
Sometimes CMO roles are really revenue rescue missions for companies.
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00:25:40
And so the way to set expectations around that is to be super transparent.
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00:25:48
And we talk a lot about 30-60-90.
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00:25:51
When I come into an organization, there's a couple of things I do regardless.
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00:25:56
First, I tell everybody, including my boss, don't ask me to make a
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00:25:59
decision in the first thirty days.
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00:26:01
The answer is no.
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00:26:02
I'm not making any decisions.
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00:26:04
I don't care how on fire you believe this to be.
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00:26:07
It's been on fire for a while.
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00:26:09
It can burn a little bit longer.
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00:26:13
And then that thirty days is a listening tour on steroids, you know,
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00:26:21
from every single person on my team.
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00:26:24
I do a start, stop, continue with every single person in the marketing
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00:26:27
organization, and then I schedule a one-on-one with them and talk through it.
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00:26:32
I spent all the time with my peers on the executive team, as well as
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00:26:38
their first line managers, and then I set up calls, same calls, listening
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00:26:43
tours with customers, if partners are a part of your business, if you're
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00:26:47
a channel business, I wanna talk to your top five channel partners.
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00:26:51
And I am just listening and asking questions and really being
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00:26:58
present in that first thirty days.
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00:27:02
From there, I come back and share with everyone, here's what I heard, here's what
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00:27:08
I learned, here's what I think about that, and here are my next three to five steps.
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00:27:14
So it's really leaning into that, you know, 30-60-90, but I'm coming
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00:27:20
in because it's the only time, those first thirty days are my only
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00:27:24
opportunity to be completely objective.
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00:27:27
We all get sucked into it, no matter how great we are at our
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00:27:32
craft, and I spend lots of time with customers and partners so that I get
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00:27:37
that real world voice in my head.
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00:27:40
But the, the not knowing and not having biases is really, really important.
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00:27:47
And the only way to really understand, for me, is to not say much except
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00:27:54
for to ask a lot of questions and really think through it.
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00:27:58
Setting yourself up when you start with people to let them know,
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00:28:03
this is what I'm going to do.
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00:28:06
So when you see me in a meeting, just asking questions, and I'm
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00:28:09
not saying, well, why don't you do this and why don't you do that?
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00:28:13
That's a hundred percent intentional.
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00:28:16
So don't think it's because I'm disengaged or, you know, I'm listening so that
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00:28:21
I can come back to you in a really thoughtful way with the information
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00:28:26
I need to make good recommendations and good decisions on the next steps.
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00:28:33
The trick to all this is the transparency and making sure your manager, if it's
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00:28:38
a CEO, whomever that is, understands this is what I'm going to do, this
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00:28:42
is the approach I'm gonna take, and here are the checkpoints you're
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00:28:46
gonna get along the way from me.
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00:28:49
You know, I believe trust comes from transparency, and as marketers, we
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00:28:55
are great at marketing companies, products, launches, you name it.
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00:29:01
Give us an ice cream cone and we will sell the truck.
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00:29:05
Ask us to market ourselves or explain ourselves and what we're trying to do,
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00:29:11
and it's challenging for all of us.
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00:29:13
So be really explicit and super transparent of what you're doing, why
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00:29:19
you're doing this, and what they can expect, and then follow through on it.
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00:29:24
And then when you have those checkpoint meetings, remind them.
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00:29:29
Remember when I said that I was gonna, you know, go on this listening tour?
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00:29:34
Well, I did.
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00:29:35
Here are the people I talked to.
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00:29:37
And one of the tricks in marketing, I think for this transparency,
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00:29:43
and I joke with my teams all the time that 'cause they'll say,
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00:29:46
but we already told them that.
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00:29:48
Hmm, if you told 'em ten times, you should have told 'em fifteen.
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00:29:53
You have to repeat yourself over and over and over.
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00:29:57
But that trust comes over time with the transparency and them understanding
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00:30:02
the decisions you're making, why you're making them, where their input
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00:30:07
is showing up in these decisions so that they felt heard and continue
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00:30:13
that and make that part of your operating rhythm as a marketing leader.
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00:30:18
I love that.
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00:30:19
It reminds me of the whole, tell 'em what you're gonna tell him, tell them,
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00:30:22
and then tell 'em what you told them, and just applying that to, to marketing.
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00:30:26
And I like that inhabiting that kind of hyper objective period for the
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00:30:31
first month on the, on the role.
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00:30:33
That's great.
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00:30:34
Thank you for sharing.
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00:30:35
I have one final question for you.
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00:30:37
This is something I ask almost everybody that comes on the show, and
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00:30:41
that is what is your favorite question that you like to ask when you are
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00:30:44
interviewing somebody for your team?
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00:30:46
So the very first question I ask, and I believe marketers, regardless
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00:30:51
of where you are in the marketing organization, marketers are storytellers.
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00:30:56
And the first question I ask people is, tell me your story.
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00:31:01
And there's a hint - if somebody just plays back their resume to me?
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00:31:06
Ehh, that's not your story.
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00:31:10
That's not who you are.
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00:31:13
Tell me your story and go back as far as you want.
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00:31:17
Start with your kindergarten teacher.
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00:31:19
I would love to hear, you know, what Ms.
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00:31:21
Smith taught you in kindergarten and how that influenced your life.
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00:31:25
Because I wanna hear how they shaped that story and the easiest way to get
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00:31:30
people to relax and really show you who they are is to tell their story
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00:31:38
of how they got to who they are today.
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00:31:41
And that's where we start the discussion from.
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00:31:44
That's cool.
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00:31:45
Do you give them bounds?
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00:31:47
Like, okay, I want you to take no more than five minutes to do this?
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00:31:50
Because I mean, somebody could go on and on and on and half an hour goes by, right?
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00:31:54
Right.
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00:31:54
I will say like, you know, don't take more than ten minutes.
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00:31:57
'Cause I might interrupt and say, oh wait, say a little bit more about that.
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00:32:01
That was really interesting.
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00:32:02
When did you decide that, you know, you were gonna work at a wildlife rescue?
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00:32:07
Like, tell me more about that.
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00:32:09
What drove you to make that decision?
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00:32:11
Where were you in your life?
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00:32:13
You, as you know, as a leader, curiosity, integrity, and empathy - that's who I am.
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00:32:22
And so for me to be effective, I really need to know a
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00:32:27
little bit about that person.
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00:32:29
Or a lot if they want to, to share that with me.
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00:32:32
But having that frame of reference about every single person on your team will
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00:32:39
really change the way you think about working with them, about the stretch
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00:32:45
projects that you might give them, how to best give them feedback, how to cue
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00:32:51
in when they're maybe not having such a good time, but they're too shy to
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00:32:55
say anything, and you can be proactive.
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00:32:57
It is your entryway to really start to know that person.
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00:33:01
And everybody wants to be known and understood.
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00:33:05
Yeah.
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00:33:05
That's great.
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00:33:06
Yeah, I had a, a former boss who used to say, "Everybody has a sign on their
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00:33:10
chest saying, 'Make me feel special.'" And I think when people tell their story,
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00:33:14
you know, it's like they feel special.
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00:33:16
And they also let their guard down a little bit?
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00:33:18
So you can kind of see the things that are gonna come out that wouldn't come
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00:33:22
out when they're practicing a recorded, you know, rehearsed answer to a question.
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00:33:27
Yes.
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00:33:28
Yeah, awesome.
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00:33:29
Well, thank you so much for joining the show, Melissa.
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00:33:31
This has been great chatting with you.
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00:33:33
And true to form, we covered a lot of, a lot of things, a lot of range here.
Speaker:
00:33:37
So, thank you, again.
Speaker:
00:33:38
Thank you so much for having me.
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00:33:40
I really appreciate it.
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00:33:40
It was great talking to you.
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00:33:42
You too.
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00:33:43
That was Melissa Sargeant.
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00:33:44
Now, think about what flaws in decision-making or red flags that you
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00:33:48
need to be most aware of and what's most important for you to look out
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00:33:52
for in your next recruiting decision.
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00:33:55
Next time on The Get, you'll hear more from me and from another guest.
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00:33:59
Don't miss it.
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00:34:00
Thanks for listening to The Get.
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00:34:01
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
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00:34:03
The Get is here to drive smart decisions around recruiting and
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00:34:07
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
Speaker:
00:34:09
We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today's top
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00:34:12
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
Speaker:
00:34:14
If you liked this episode, please share it.
Speaker:
00:34:17
For more about The Get, visit TheGetPodcast.com.
Speaker:
00:34:20
To learn more about my executive search practice, which focuses on recruiting the
Speaker:
00:34:24
make-money marketing leaders rather than the make-it-pretty ones, follow me on
Speaker:
00:34:28
LinkedIn or visit theconnectivegood.com.
Speaker:
00:34:30
The Get is produced by Evo Terra of Simpler Media Productions.
00:00:00
A successful career, in my view, comes from three things: talent,
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00:00:04
good luck, and good decision-making.
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00:00:06
Let's assume you're talented, and let's assume luck is out of your hands.
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00:00:11
The lever that you're left with is your decision-making.
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00:00:14
How can you make the strongest decisions possible, whether you're
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00:00:17
recruiting or looking to get recruited?
Speaker:
00:00:20
Hello, and welcome to The Get.
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00:00:22
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
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00:00:24
I spend my days recruiting CMOs and VPs of Marketing in B2B SaaS.
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00:00:28
My tagline is I place the make-money marketing leaders,
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00:00:32
not the make-it-pretty ones.
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00:00:34
With my role, I have a front-row seat to the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of
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00:00:39
today's top marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
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00:00:42
And now with The Get you do, too.
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00:00:44
The Get is designed to drive smart decisions around recruiting and
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00:00:47
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
Speaker:
00:00:50
This season, we focus on the race to reduce risk.
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00:00:53
When it comes to a match between a company and a CMO, how can you
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00:00:57
find out what you need to find out before saying yes so that you make
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00:01:00
a match that sticks and flourishes?
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00:01:03
Today, you'll hear from me on flaws in decision-making to
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00:01:06
avoid in the recruiting process.
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00:01:09
Then, you'll hear more perspectives from my guest, Melissa Sargeant,
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00:01:12
who has been a CMO multiple times.
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00:01:14
The first part of making a good decision is realizing that
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00:01:18
there's a decision to be made.
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00:01:19
Sometimes it doesn't feel like it, but with many things around
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00:01:22
careers and hiring we do most often have more choice than we think.
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00:01:27
The second part is having a good process for decision-making.
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00:01:30
As we have seen with other episodes, it's important to have some framework,
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00:01:34
some key things that you examine intentionally before saying yes.
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00:01:39
And the third part is avoiding getting tripped up with your decision-making.
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00:01:42
In my executive search role, I have seen people fall into a bunch of
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00:01:46
different decision-making traps.
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00:01:48
Let's review some of these, and as I go through these, consider
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00:01:51
which ones you have fallen prey to.
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00:01:53
The first is trusting someone else's due diligence without doing your own.
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00:01:57
Like when you're hiring a marketing leader, and you trust a reference
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00:02:01
from someone you know who has worked with the person before so much so
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00:02:05
that you skip your own due diligence.
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00:02:07
It can also happen when you're a CMO candidate and you already
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00:02:10
know the CEO or CFO or CRO.
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00:02:13
You think, "That person is there.
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00:02:14
They did their research and they're smart and we click.
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00:02:17
So it is likely a great fit for me."
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00:02:19
You scrutinize the match less than you would otherwise.
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00:02:22
A second flaw in decision-making is thinking that the company
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00:02:25
has a greater appetite for transformation than it actually does.
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00:02:29
Every CMO needs to navigate what I call the Peacemaker/Changemaker Paradox.
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00:02:34
They have to thread that needle between making change and doing so in
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00:02:38
a way that brings the company along.
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00:02:41
Sometimes, the company is just not ready for the change that someone can bring.
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00:02:45
Another flaw - underestimating the amount of stretch in the role, thinking
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00:02:49
that the new marketing leader will be as coachable as they need to be or that
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00:02:53
the CEO has the capacity or ability to upskill the new head of marketing.
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00:02:58
The next flaw is representative bias, thinking that this
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00:03:01
situation is so much like another.
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00:03:04
Oh, it's the same size company, the same investors, so the same
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00:03:07
playbook I used then will work now.
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00:03:10
Or the same person who did this in another company will succeed here.
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00:03:14
These factors can be good indicators, but they don't necessarily predict success.
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00:03:18
Another flaw is commitment bias.
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00:03:20
I put so much into this, so I should continue.
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00:03:23
It's like continuing to wait for a bus that isn't coming.
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00:03:26
Staying in a role for too long once it is clear it is just not
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00:03:30
a fit, is an example of this.
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00:03:31
Or, investing a lot of time into a recruiting process and
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00:03:35
wanting it to just be over.
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00:03:37
So you say yes even when there are big reservations.
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00:03:40
The next flaw is confirmation bias, looking for information to
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00:03:43
support our initial impression.
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00:03:45
For example, you have great interviews with someone.
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00:03:48
You feel a good vibe, but you haven't really seen the person in action, and
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00:03:52
you haven't tapped into things like behavioral assessments to vet the match.
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00:03:56
Another flaw - falling in love with the product instead of the product market fit.
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00:04:00
Or thinking that because you know the ICP or you are the ICP, it'll be easy.
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00:04:07
The last flaw that comes to mind is falling in love with the
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00:04:09
company that someone worked at.
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00:04:11
Like, yay, I'm going to get to work with the person who led marketing at company
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00:04:15
X, Y, Z, rather than focusing on how they approach their role and their work style.
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00:04:20
Remember, sometimes a company is successful because of somebody's
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00:04:24
contribution in marketing, and sometimes it is successful
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00:04:27
despite their contribution.
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00:04:29
If you are just as fascinated by decision science as me, there are
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00:04:32
lots of great resources on it.
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00:04:34
There's a fabulous book I recommend to many clients and candidates.
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00:04:38
It's called Decisive by Chip and Dan Heath.
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00:04:41
Check it out if you are facing a big career or life decision.
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00:04:44
Now, let's bring on my guest, Melissa Sargeant.
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00:04:47
Melissa has been CMO four times, most recently at AlphaSense and previously
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00:04:52
at Litmus, SugarCRM, and ChannelAdvisor.
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00:04:55
Before that, she was in senior marketing roles at Avalara and CA.
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00:04:59
She has driven great scale-up journeys in her career, and I'm
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00:05:03
really impressed by her sheer range as a leader and as a marketer.
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00:05:07
She knows a lot about decision-making in recruiting, both hiring and getting hired.
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00:05:13
So Melissa, welcome to The Get.
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00:05:14
I'm glad to have you here.
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00:05:16
Thank you so very much.
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00:05:17
I'm really excited to be here.
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00:05:19
Thanks for the invitation.
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00:05:20
So you have been a CMO four times now, and I'm wondering if you can look back
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00:05:26
to your, your previous self, you know, before you started your CMO journey.
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00:05:30
What do you know now that you didn't know before your first CMO gig?
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00:05:34
As it relates to reducing risk in the recruiting process,
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00:05:37
which is our theme here.
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00:05:39
I think the main thing that I didn't understand was that I needed to map out in
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00:05:46
that first role as I was interviewing for it, the things that were important to me.
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00:05:52
So, for example, for some people, as a CMO, it might be really important to
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00:05:59
report into the CEO so that you can have a strategic seat at that table and really
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00:06:05
be there as part of the executive team.
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00:06:09
It might also be important, very important to really understand things like product
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00:06:16
market fit because we get that, you know, the most glowy, best pictures of
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00:06:22
what's going on from the product side of the house as we're interviewing.
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00:06:28
And I wish I had, I still would've made the same decision I made, but now I
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00:06:34
know that there's this list of these immutable things that I will not negotiate
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00:06:40
upon that are critical to my success in the role, critical to the success
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00:06:47
of the team, and being able to recruit people to that organization once I get
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00:06:53
there and that I have to stick to that and not let someone kind of talk me
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00:07:00
out of some things that are important.
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00:07:03
Really, because it's ultimately gonna drive the success in that role and
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00:07:08
the outcomes you're able to drive.
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00:07:11
That's fascinating.
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00:07:12
So have you ever had somebody try to talk you out of something where your gut was
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00:07:17
saying, "Oh no, I'm gonna stick with me."
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00:07:19
And then, you know, you're kind of like trying to see the logic
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00:07:23
of what they were saying, but also your gut was saying something else?
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00:07:27
Yes, and specifically as it relates to product market fit.
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00:07:33
It was an organization that had grown really quickly, had product market
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00:07:40
fit, and then as it happens in the market, things are always changing.
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00:07:43
The only constant we can manage is change, and product market fit started to slip.
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00:07:50
And so it was very clear to me that that was happening.
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00:07:55
And so when I brought it up during the interview process, they tried to convince
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00:08:00
me, no, it's really just a pipeline issue.
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00:08:04
And I said, I agree that you have a pipeline issue, but the pipeline issue
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00:08:10
is related to product market fit.
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00:08:12
And I can come in and help you work through the product market fit issues,
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00:08:19
but we all have to be intellectually honest together that that's the core
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00:08:24
issue here, and we can work through that.
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00:08:27
And then, over time, that's gonna help us from a pipeline perspective.
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00:08:32
But if we don't have a shared understanding of what the real
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00:08:36
issue is, in six months, they're not gonna be happy with me.
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00:08:40
In six months, I'm not gonna be happy with them.
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00:08:43
And, and no one really moves the needle forward.
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00:08:47
Yeah, it's a great point because product market fit, sometimes companies are
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00:08:51
like, you either have it or you don't.
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00:08:53
But it seems like you have it mostly but never perfectly.
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00:08:56
And then it changes, and you know, like maybe you had it a few months
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00:08:59
ago but things have changed.
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00:09:01
And now you need to find a new, just a new place to sit with product market fit.
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00:09:07
Yeah, it, it's definitely not one and done.
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00:09:09
It's, you know, it's something that's continually evolving and you have
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00:09:13
to really keep that top of mind.
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00:09:15
Yeah, yeah.
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00:09:16
So can you double click here on, maybe share a couple of things,
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00:09:20
one or two things that you have done before saying yes to a job?
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00:09:24
Something you have asked in particular, or information you found out that
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00:09:28
others could learn from as they are looking to mitigate their risk?
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00:09:33
Definitely.
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00:09:33
One thing is as we go through these processes, and it may sound familiar to
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00:09:39
people, you go into these interviews, whether it's the first one or you're,
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00:09:44
you know, in your fifth or sixth round, and they'll map out the plan for you.
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00:09:48
Say, here's the agenda.
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00:09:50
I'm gonna talk about some things that the interviewer's gonna share some things.
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00:09:55
Then, they're gonna ask some questions, and I'm gonna leave you, candidate,
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00:09:59
five to ten minutes at the end of this to answer any questions that you have.
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00:10:07
And I think that that's common at the beginning of the process
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00:10:12
because you're trying to figure out synergies, does this make sense?
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00:10:16
But as a candidate, you need much, much more time to be able to figure out if
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00:10:21
this is the right opportunity for you.
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00:10:24
And so what I have done when I find myself in those situations, and if I'm continuing
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00:10:31
to advance through the process, is I will put together my list of questions, and
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00:10:37
whenever that next interview is coming up, particularly if it's gonna be my manager,
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00:10:43
the CEO, I will write out the questions.
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00:10:46
I will send it forty-eight hours in advance of the interview and say, I know
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00:10:51
you probably have some agenda items that you wanna talk through with me, but here
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00:10:57
are a list of questions to help guide our discussion and things that I'm really
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00:11:02
interested in going further in with you.
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00:11:06
And if we're not able to get to it in this next discussion, I would like
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00:11:12
to make a request that we schedule a follow-up discussion so we can
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00:11:16
both get through these questions.
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00:11:19
My view is that a good manager, a good hiring manager, should be
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00:11:24
excited that the person has been thoughtful about this and wants to
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00:11:28
go through this process with them.
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00:11:33
I really like that.
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00:11:34
I actually had a client once who, her approach for interviewing, she was a
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00:11:39
CMO who was hiring people on her team, and her approach to interviewing was,
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00:11:43
the first conversation was all about her answering questions that the candidate
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00:11:47
had, and the second conversation was her actually interviewing the person.
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00:11:51
Because she felt like once they were smarter about the business, they
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00:11:55
would be smarter about the interview.
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00:11:58
It was a bigger investment on her time, you know, on her part, but these
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00:12:01
were vetted candidates beforehand.
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00:12:03
I'm wondering, can you share maybe a question or two that a CEO
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00:12:08
has reacted really strongly to?
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00:12:10
That you've done in your forty-eight hours before or during the interview?
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00:12:14
So the areas I really like to dig deep into are the dynamics around how
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00:12:21
that executive team works together.
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00:12:25
I will usually start at a higher level and ask about how does
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00:12:29
strategy get developed here?
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00:12:32
And often people will say something like, we do OKRs, or we do the V2MOM framework.
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00:12:38
Great.
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00:12:39
I love frameworks.
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00:12:40
How do you get there?
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00:12:42
What happens before that comes on paper?
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00:12:46
Oh, we go on an offsite.
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00:12:47
Fantastic.
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00:12:49
What does that offsite look like?
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00:12:52
Do you, Ms.
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00:12:54
CEO, come to that meeting with documentation that you've put
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00:12:58
together in terms of your goals and here's how you see the strategy?
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00:13:02
Do you have each of your executive team members come prepared with, you
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00:13:08
know, a presentation or a talk track on what they see the strategy is?
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00:13:14
How does that happen?
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00:13:17
It's very telling about the dynamics of that organization because what I've seen
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00:13:24
is some very top-down structures where the CEO, or maybe it's a founder CEO,
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00:13:31
is, you know, very common, certainly in my space, has a, is the visionary in the
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00:13:36
company and they're the ones, they're the person that's looking around corners.
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00:13:40
So they have a very clear view of what they think that strategy should be.
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00:13:46
Or perhaps it's a more mature organization and all the key stakeholders, all the
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00:13:52
key executives come with what they think.
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00:13:55
They've done their research and they've gotten their feedback from customers
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00:13:59
and they come to the table with that.
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00:14:02
How that process happens and the discussions that happen around it
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00:14:07
is incredible insight on how that team works together on a daily
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00:14:13
basis and what you can expect to see in your executive team meetings.
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00:14:18
Because in those meetings, my view is that everyone should be talking.
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00:14:24
And some organizations, if you see or if you hear, it seems like there's one person
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00:14:30
who talks the most and others are just listening and maybe asking a question.
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00:14:37
That's something you want to understand a bit more about because if everybody really
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00:14:44
has a strategic seat at that table, how that process happens is really critical.
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00:14:51
The part two of that that I will ask them is, how do you disagree?
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00:14:56
You get lots of different responses to that.
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00:15:00
In a healthy working environment, there is a level of disagreement that's
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00:15:06
necessary to move the company forward.
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00:15:10
It can be done in a respectful and professional way, but it should be a red
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00:15:16
flag for candidates if they see those interactions, and if you feel like you
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00:15:22
get into these spirited discussions and then you go away from that meeting, and
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00:15:28
if you have to spend the next two weeks repairing your relationship with your
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00:15:32
colleagues, it's probably not a healthy organization that celebrates and wants
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00:15:39
those diverse voices at the table.
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00:15:43
So for me, I really wanna understand how do we work together?
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00:15:48
And that can be a challenging question for them to answer because
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00:15:52
there's so many facets to that.
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00:15:55
One of the examples I typically bring up is say, okay, how do you disagree?
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00:15:59
Like what happens when you're on very different sides.
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00:16:04
Do you go through this debating process and as the CEO you're listening to
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00:16:10
this and then you make the decision and you have a contract and how
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00:16:15
you're gonna interact with each other and it's, we disagree and commit?
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00:16:20
What does that look like for your organization?
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00:16:23
If they haven't thought that through, that's something that, you
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00:16:26
know, you need to be aware of as a candidate going into that situation.
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00:16:31
If they have a real, like, yes, we absolutely disagree and commit and
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00:16:37
that's how we're gonna interact with each other on a regular basis.
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00:16:42
So fascinating.
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00:16:43
Follow up question, are you looking for the kind of structure of decision-making
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00:16:49
and, and fighting to be set before you walk in and then you kind of inherit that?
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00:16:56
Or are you looking for a situation where you, as a CMO, are going to
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00:17:01
influence that if it's not totally bait?
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00:17:04
You know, 'cause those are two different ways of reacting.
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00:17:07
You know, the inheriting it versus kind of promulgating it.
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00:17:11
It's a little bit of both in that I want to understand how they
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00:17:15
operate today so I can think through how I'm gonna best engage with
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00:17:22
them as a group and individually.
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00:17:26
If the company's just not at that place, and I work at a lot of, have worked
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00:17:30
at a lot of earlier stage companies or high-growth companies where you're
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00:17:35
growing so fast you don't always have time to figure out all this management
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00:17:40
stuff that underpins the business.
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00:17:44
I wanna be able to have a voice and have a discussion around these things.
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00:17:50
And there's lots of training and books and things that we can do as
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00:17:55
leaders to get better at it because, ultimately, that's a key part of our job.
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00:18:02
The rest of the organization trusts us to get this strategy right.
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00:18:07
They trust us to work together as productive partners so that they
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00:18:13
can take that cue from us and go and do the execution elements
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00:18:18
that ladder up to that strategy.
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00:18:21
Right.
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00:18:22
Right.
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00:18:22
Makes sense.
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00:18:23
I love those questions.
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00:18:24
It's so, because I feel like with those two questions about how is strategy
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00:18:29
set and how do you disagree, you could just ask those two and that could
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00:18:32
be like two hours of conversation right there and a ton of learning.
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00:18:36
So, that's great.
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00:18:37
Let's talk about flaws in decision-making.
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00:18:40
I'd love for you to share your perspective, both on the side
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00:18:43
of having gotten recruited and having recruited teams before.
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00:18:48
Can you talk about maybe some, you know, top flaws in decision-making
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00:18:52
that you've seen or that you think people should be most wary of?
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00:18:55
And maybe it's something that you've, you know, kind of done battle with yourself.
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00:18:59
Curious to hear your take there.
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00:19:00
I will start from the latter part of that because I've made several
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00:19:05
mistakes in this process over the years.
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00:19:09
I think it's, it's trusting your gut.
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00:19:14
Your gut is your truth.
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00:19:17
And one of the words I think that is overused a bit today,
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00:19:21
but I'll say it, red flags.
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00:19:23
When you see something and you're like, that just doesn't quite feel
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00:19:27
right, or I don't understand that.
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00:19:31
For me, I know that because I'm a tech geek, I will tend to overlook
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00:19:39
these, you know, red flags.
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00:19:42
And I've had certain situations where they weren't red flags.
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00:19:45
I would say it was like this beacon of light with sparkles
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00:19:51
and fireworks saying, "Melissa!
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00:19:54
Danger, Melissa!
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00:19:55
Danger, Melissa!"
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00:19:57
And I will have overlooked it because I would be enamored with
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00:20:02
some other part of the organization, or I really liked the team and, you
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00:20:08
know, I would second guess myself.
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00:20:09
I'm, I'm being too critical here.
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00:20:12
Now, I'm incredibly intentional about that, that if I see a red
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00:20:18
flag, and I know it's a red flag because I feel it in my gut.
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00:20:21
Something doesn't feel right.
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00:20:23
And that's where your truth is.
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00:20:26
And I think that's true for both if you're interviewing candidates and
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00:20:31
something comes up and it doesn't quite feel right around that, or if you are the
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00:20:37
person that's interviewing for the role.
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00:20:40
And the way I manage that, personally, is I will remind myself, and sometimes
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00:20:45
I even put a sticky note on my display that says, "Stay curious."
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00:20:50
And for me that means keep asking questions.
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00:20:55
Get a little more curiosity.
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00:20:58
Get more clarity.
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00:21:00
See if there's something that you're misunderstanding there or
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00:21:04
there's some information that you don't have around that red flag.
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00:21:09
But if you can't get it and you still have that feeling, you have to honor it.
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00:21:15
And that can be really, really hard.
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00:21:17
If it's, you know, a company that you're super excited about.
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00:21:21
We're in a time now where it's really competitive for roles
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00:21:27
and you're excited about that.
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00:21:30
But every time, whether it was a role that I chose or a candidate that I
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00:21:37
was hiring, and that red flag, that twinge I get in my stomach was ignored,
Speaker:
00:21:44
I paid for it every single time.
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00:21:49
Yeah.
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00:21:50
Yeah.
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00:21:51
You know, I have a coach who told me once something really smart.
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00:21:54
She said, "Your gut doesn't speak English."
Speaker:
00:21:58
So I love how you're talking about kind of interrogating your gut, right?
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00:22:01
It's like the gut has to have the space to say its truth, and you have to realize
Speaker:
00:22:07
that it's talking, and then you have to realize it's not talking in English,
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00:22:12
or whatever language you, you speak.
Speaker:
00:22:14
And then it's, oh, let me try to translate for it and with it and
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00:22:18
interrogate it to, uh, to figure out what it's trying to tell me.
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00:22:24
That just stuck with me so, so much.
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00:22:27
And I like what you're saying.
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00:22:28
It's almost like when you get married, you know, it's like, oh, there's this
Speaker:
00:22:31
little thing, but are you okay with that little thing becoming like a really
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00:22:35
big thing, potentially, over time?
Speaker:
00:22:37
[Chuckling] Exactly.
Speaker:
00:22:38
Because - right - because what's a small little, you know, gut
Speaker:
00:22:41
question mark initially becomes a bigger question mark over time.
Speaker:
00:22:45
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:22:46
Well said.
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00:22:47
So it sounds like for you, you know, the flaw in decision-making
Speaker:
00:22:50
is just not trusting the gut and, and not following the feelings.
Speaker:
00:22:54
Are there any others that you've seen, in particular, you know, show
Speaker:
00:22:58
up when hiring or getting hired?
Speaker:
00:23:01
So a lot of times we'll get candidates whom have been recommended to us by
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00:23:08
people with whom we've worked in the past, or maybe they're at the company.
Speaker:
00:23:13
And that's always great because, you know, in general, I think great
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00:23:17
people tend to attract great people.
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00:23:20
We still have to go through the same process with them and not necessarily
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00:23:25
give them an advantage in that scenario.
Speaker:
00:23:30
Because if they were great in some other organization with that person
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00:23:36
- every organization is different.
Speaker:
00:23:37
Every culture is gonna be different.
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00:23:40
How organizations make decisions, how people engage with each other, the culture
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00:23:46
on that team could be quite different.
Speaker:
00:23:49
It doesn't necessarily translate into success in that next role.
Speaker:
00:23:55
It's great to get that feedback and it's a place for you to ask lots
Speaker:
00:23:59
of questions and learn more, but I intentionally, now, again, it's
Speaker:
00:24:06
a mistake I've made in the past.
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00:24:08
I don't start when I'm looking at a slate of candidates automatically adding
Speaker:
00:24:14
points to that person because, oh, they know this person and I love that person.
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00:24:20
I would work with them a hundred times, and if they say they're perfect for
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00:24:24
this, then you know, I trust them.
Speaker:
00:24:27
They might, I'm sure that person is fantastic.
Speaker:
00:24:30
It just doesn't mean that that's automatically gonna translate into
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00:24:33
the role that you're recruiting for.
Speaker:
00:24:36
Or for you as a candidate that you're going into that the same
Speaker:
00:24:40
thing is gonna be true for you.
Speaker:
00:24:43
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:
00:24:45
Well said.
Speaker:
00:24:46
Thank you for sharing.
Speaker:
00:24:47
I'd love to also get your take, for people who are new in a CMO role, they
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00:24:52
often come into an organization that's kind of skeptical about marketing.
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So do you have any tips for once somebody has gotten the job, and assuming it's the
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right job, how do they turn the company from being skeptical about marketing
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to being supportive about marketing?
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Trust is built through transparency.
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And a lot of CMOs come into organizations - I joke that,
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00:25:15
why do they always hire us last?
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I feel like in every role it's like, "We got everything else in order, Melissa.
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Now, can you just come and like, you know, you've got that magic dust
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00:25:26
that you carry around with you and sprinkle it over here and in 90 days,
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you know, everything will be better."
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Sometimes CMO roles are really revenue rescue missions for companies.
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And so the way to set expectations around that is to be super transparent.
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And we talk a lot about 30-60-90.
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When I come into an organization, there's a couple of things I do regardless.
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First, I tell everybody, including my boss, don't ask me to make a
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decision in the first thirty days.
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The answer is no.
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00:26:02
I'm not making any decisions.
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00:26:04
I don't care how on fire you believe this to be.
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00:26:07
It's been on fire for a while.
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00:26:09
It can burn a little bit longer.
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00:26:13
And then that thirty days is a listening tour on steroids, you know,
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00:26:21
from every single person on my team.
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00:26:24
I do a start, stop, continue with every single person in the marketing
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00:26:27
organization, and then I schedule a one-on-one with them and talk through it.
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I spent all the time with my peers on the executive team, as well as
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00:26:38
their first line managers, and then I set up calls, same calls, listening
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00:26:43
tours with customers, if partners are a part of your business, if you're
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00:26:47
a channel business, I wanna talk to your top five channel partners.
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00:26:51
And I am just listening and asking questions and really being
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00:26:58
present in that first thirty days.
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00:27:02
From there, I come back and share with everyone, here's what I heard, here's what
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00:27:08
I learned, here's what I think about that, and here are my next three to five steps.
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00:27:14
So it's really leaning into that, you know, 30-60-90, but I'm coming
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00:27:20
in because it's the only time, those first thirty days are my only
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00:27:24
opportunity to be completely objective.
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00:27:27
We all get sucked into it, no matter how great we are at our
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00:27:32
craft, and I spend lots of time with customers and partners so that I get
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00:27:37
that real world voice in my head.
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00:27:40
But the, the not knowing and not having biases is really, really important.
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00:27:47
And the only way to really understand, for me, is to not say much except
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00:27:54
for to ask a lot of questions and really think through it.
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Setting yourself up when you start with people to let them know,
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00:28:03
this is what I'm going to do.
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00:28:06
So when you see me in a meeting, just asking questions, and I'm
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00:28:09
not saying, well, why don't you do this and why don't you do that?
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00:28:13
That's a hundred percent intentional.
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00:28:16
So don't think it's because I'm disengaged or, you know, I'm listening so that
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00:28:21
I can come back to you in a really thoughtful way with the information
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00:28:26
I need to make good recommendations and good decisions on the next steps.
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00:28:33
The trick to all this is the transparency and making sure your manager, if it's
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00:28:38
a CEO, whomever that is, understands this is what I'm going to do, this
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00:28:42
is the approach I'm gonna take, and here are the checkpoints you're
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00:28:46
gonna get along the way from me.
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You know, I believe trust comes from transparency, and as marketers, we
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00:28:55
are great at marketing companies, products, launches, you name it.
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00:29:01
Give us an ice cream cone and we will sell the truck.
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00:29:05
Ask us to market ourselves or explain ourselves and what we're trying to do,
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00:29:11
and it's challenging for all of us.
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00:29:13
So be really explicit and super transparent of what you're doing, why
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00:29:19
you're doing this, and what they can expect, and then follow through on it.
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00:29:24
And then when you have those checkpoint meetings, remind them.
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00:29:29
Remember when I said that I was gonna, you know, go on this listening tour?
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00:29:34
Well, I did.
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00:29:35
Here are the people I talked to.
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00:29:37
And one of the tricks in marketing, I think for this transparency,
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00:29:43
and I joke with my teams all the time that 'cause they'll say,
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00:29:46
but we already told them that.
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00:29:48
Hmm, if you told 'em ten times, you should have told 'em fifteen.
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00:29:53
You have to repeat yourself over and over and over.
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00:29:57
But that trust comes over time with the transparency and them understanding
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00:30:02
the decisions you're making, why you're making them, where their input
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00:30:07
is showing up in these decisions so that they felt heard and continue
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00:30:13
that and make that part of your operating rhythm as a marketing leader.
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00:30:18
I love that.
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00:30:19
It reminds me of the whole, tell 'em what you're gonna tell him, tell them,
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00:30:22
and then tell 'em what you told them, and just applying that to, to marketing.
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00:30:26
And I like that inhabiting that kind of hyper objective period for the
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00:30:31
first month on the, on the role.
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00:30:33
That's great.
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00:30:34
Thank you for sharing.
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00:30:35
I have one final question for you.
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00:30:37
This is something I ask almost everybody that comes on the show, and
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00:30:41
that is what is your favorite question that you like to ask when you are
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00:30:44
interviewing somebody for your team?
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00:30:46
So the very first question I ask, and I believe marketers, regardless
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00:30:51
of where you are in the marketing organization, marketers are storytellers.
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00:30:56
And the first question I ask people is, tell me your story.
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00:31:01
And there's a hint - if somebody just plays back their resume to me?
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00:31:06
Ehh, that's not your story.
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00:31:10
That's not who you are.
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00:31:13
Tell me your story and go back as far as you want.
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00:31:17
Start with your kindergarten teacher.
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00:31:19
I would love to hear, you know, what Ms.
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00:31:21
Smith taught you in kindergarten and how that influenced your life.
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00:31:25
Because I wanna hear how they shaped that story and the easiest way to get
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00:31:30
people to relax and really show you who they are is to tell their story
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00:31:38
of how they got to who they are today.
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00:31:41
And that's where we start the discussion from.
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00:31:44
That's cool.
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00:31:45
Do you give them bounds?
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00:31:47
Like, okay, I want you to take no more than five minutes to do this?
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00:31:50
Because I mean, somebody could go on and on and on and half an hour goes by, right?
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00:31:54
Right.
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00:31:54
I will say like, you know, don't take more than ten minutes.
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00:31:57
'Cause I might interrupt and say, oh wait, say a little bit more about that.
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00:32:01
That was really interesting.
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00:32:02
When did you decide that, you know, you were gonna work at a wildlife rescue?
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00:32:07
Like, tell me more about that.
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00:32:09
What drove you to make that decision?
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00:32:11
Where were you in your life?
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00:32:13
You, as you know, as a leader, curiosity, integrity, and empathy - that's who I am.
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00:32:22
And so for me to be effective, I really need to know a
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00:32:27
little bit about that person.
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00:32:29
Or a lot if they want to, to share that with me.
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00:32:32
But having that frame of reference about every single person on your team will
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00:32:39
really change the way you think about working with them, about the stretch
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00:32:45
projects that you might give them, how to best give them feedback, how to cue
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00:32:51
in when they're maybe not having such a good time, but they're too shy to
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00:32:55
say anything, and you can be proactive.
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00:32:57
It is your entryway to really start to know that person.
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00:33:01
And everybody wants to be known and understood.
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00:33:05
Yeah.
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00:33:05
That's great.
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00:33:06
Yeah, I had a, a former boss who used to say, "Everybody has a sign on their
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00:33:10
chest saying, 'Make me feel special.'" And I think when people tell their story,
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00:33:14
you know, it's like they feel special.
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00:33:16
And they also let their guard down a little bit?
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00:33:18
So you can kind of see the things that are gonna come out that wouldn't come
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00:33:22
out when they're practicing a recorded, you know, rehearsed answer to a question.
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00:33:27
Yes.
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00:33:28
Yeah, awesome.
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00:33:29
Well, thank you so much for joining the show, Melissa.
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00:33:31
This has been great chatting with you.
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00:33:33
And true to form, we covered a lot of, a lot of things, a lot of range here.
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00:33:37
So, thank you, again.
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00:33:38
Thank you so much for having me.
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00:33:40
I really appreciate it.
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00:33:40
It was great talking to you.
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00:33:42
You too.
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00:33:43
That was Melissa Sargeant.
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00:33:44
Now, think about what flaws in decision-making or red flags that you
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00:33:48
need to be most aware of and what's most important for you to look out
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00:33:52
for in your next recruiting decision.
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00:33:55
Next time on The Get, you'll hear more from me and from another guest.
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00:33:59
Don't miss it.
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00:34:00
Thanks for listening to The Get.
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00:34:01
I'm your host, Erica Seidel.
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00:34:03
The Get is here to drive smart decisions around recruiting and
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00:34:07
leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
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00:34:09
We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today's top
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00:34:12
marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
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00:34:14
If you liked this episode, please share it.
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00:34:17
For more about The Get, visit TheGetPodcast.com.
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00:34:20
To learn more about my executive search practice, which focuses on recruiting the
Speaker:
00:34:24
make-money marketing leaders rather than the make-it-pretty ones, follow me on
Speaker:
00:34:28
LinkedIn or visit theconnectivegood.com.
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00:34:30
The Get is produced by Evo Terra of Simpler Media Productions.
