Elevators, Codes, and Consequences: Lessons from 55 Years in the Industry | Lee Rigby

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In fact, I've I've heard people say that when you do a modernization, you have to bring everything up to code, which is just not so in most jurisdictions, elevators have to meet the code that was in effect when it was initially installed and at each alteration.
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That sounds very complex, right?
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Let's say you've done six alterations, so you got six or seven different code eras that you that you have to refer to.
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Is it just easier to say we're gonna mod this, we're gonna bring it up to current code?
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That way we don't have to think about seven different versions.
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Well, yeah, it would be much easier if you did that.
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Sure.
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There are some things probably that you wouldn't be able to change, but obviously, the more alterations you make and the more you bring it up to current code, the less of that chain of codes you have to keep.
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Hello, and welcome to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the Allred Group.
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I am your host, Matt Allred.
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Does your workforce need a lift?
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At the Allred Group, we are committed to connecting your company with top talent that matches your needs.
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Give us a call at 404-890-0445.
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Today's guest is Lee Rigby, an elevator code expert who has spent more than 55 years in the elevator industry as a mechanic, contractor, inspector, instructor, consultant, and now expert witness.
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In this episode, Lee shares insights from decades of interpreting and teaching elevator codes and explains some of the industry's most common misconceptions about modernizations and code compliance.
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We also discuss what years of expert witness work have taught him about the role safety practices and documentation play when accidents lead to litigation.
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Lee, welcome to the show.
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Well, thank you very much.
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I appreciate the opportunity to uh be here.
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Yeah, no, I'm I'm excited to be able to talk to you.
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It's it's funny I've been hearing your your name for years, right?
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And then to finally get a chance to connect is uh something I've been looking forward to.
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Uh me as well.
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Awesome, awesome.
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Well, and and obviously you've got a you've got a long run.
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I mean, you you said you got your start maintaining ordnance elevators on aircraft carrier during the Vietnam era.
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And I'm just curious what lessons from working in the middle of the ocean still influence how you look at elevators today?
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Yeah, that was back in 70, 71.
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Um, probably the most important thing I learned was just perseverance.
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You know, when you're out there in the middle of the ocean, you can't just call for support.
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You can't just get a part in overnight or something like that.
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We had to figure out how to find the problem and fix the problem, even if we had to make our own parts.
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Yeah, you've got to invent the solution sometimes, right?
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Sometimes, yes, sir.
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That's amazing.
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Yeah, staying on task, staying on tasks until it's resolved, I think is the main thing I'd like to do.
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Well, yeah, there's no way to give up, right?
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It's like, no, we're we're gonna keep plugging away and just kind of this confidence that, hey, there is a solution.
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We're just kind of leaning into it, pushing forward until we figure out something.
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Yeah, and it serves me well.
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When I got out and and uh went to work as an elevator mechanic shortly after I got out of service, I remember being on an Otis hydraulic job.
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And I'll tell you what, the Otis prints I think were made to be complicated so that it was very difficult for people to follow.
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And uh I remember staying up all night and half a day on a job trying to troubleshoot one electrical issue.
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Wow.
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But you did.
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You you you persevered.
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Yes.
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That's awesome.
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You know, we talked a little bit about uh uh troubleshooting creativity.
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I mean that that environment kind of forces that upon you, right?
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Yeah, it it it did.
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Um again, because it's difficult doing repairs at sea, it also helped me to learn about being proactive and preventing issues by adequate preventative maintenance.
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Right, right.
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So um obviously you've kind of moved into the the code, and I'm just curious, you know, after 55 years in the business, what would you say is the biggest misconception that elevator people have about code compliance and maybe even modernization?
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Well, the code is very difficult to follow.
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It used to be the codes were pretty simple, and I'll I'll refer to them more later.
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But if you look back at the earlier editions of the code, this is the 1937 edition, it really got bigger in the 55.
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In fact, a lot of the rules we have in our A17 code today are word for word the same as in the 55 edition.
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But you know, the codes are very complex and it makes it very confusing for people who, unlike me, are spending all their time working on equipment and not actually in the code book.
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So it makes it very, very difficult for them sometimes to follow uh you know, figure out what the requirements are.
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Sure.
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Well, you mentioned you mentioned when we've talked before, just that because I asked the asked the question, you know, at what point do you have to bring it up to code?
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And does a modernization mean you have to bring everything up?
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And you you kind of said, not exactly, right?
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So that is that that's exactly right.
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And but that's a misconception that a lot of elevator people have merely because of the complexity.
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In fact, I've I've heard people say that when you do a modernization, you have to bring everything up to code, which is just not so.
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In most jurisdictions, elevators have to meet the code that was in effect when it was initially installed and at each alteration.
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So do you think that's maybe a response to that that sounds very complex, right?
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Let's say you've done six alterations, so you got six or seven different code eras that you that you have to refer to.
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Is it just easier to say, if we're gonna mod this, we're gonna bring it up to current code?
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That way we don't have to think about seven different versions and what those all mean.
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Well, yes, it would be much easier if you did that, sure.
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Then you just bring it up to the current code.
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Uh, there are some things probably that you wouldn't be able to change.
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Um, the machine beams, they might have been installed under different criteria and don't meet the deflection requirements of today's requirements.
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Uh, so there may be some things that you still have to refer back to the earlier code for.
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But obviously, the more alterations you make and the more you bring it up to the current code, the less of that chain of codes you have to keep.
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Yes.
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Yep.
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Good point.
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Good point.
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And I was I was intrigued when I asked you the to define modernization for me because I've I've asked that question many times, right?
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What really qualifies?
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And I've heard well, it's when you replace a controller.
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That's that's a mod.
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But what intrigued me the most was just how you responded.
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Obviously, that word gets thrown out around a lot.
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Why would you say people struggle to define it, even even some elevator professionals?
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Well, probably because modernization isn't really defined in the code.
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Okay.
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The A171 code we use for elevators only has the word modernization in it in one place.
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That is in the definition section, but it doesn't define it.
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It merely says see alteration.
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And that's because anytime you change something such that it's more modern usually means you're adding a feature to it.
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Anytime you add a feature that wasn't there before, it's an alteration.
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The problem is the definition of modernization, which is kind of, I think you asked me that.
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So I'd like to give you my definition.
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Yeah, please.
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Um, and to do that, I have to give you some definitions out of A17.1 other than modernization, since it's not really defined well there.
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So we have maintenance, which is basically cleaning, lubrication, adjusting, keeping something as close as possible to its good working condition.
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Then we have repair.
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Something breaks, you have to fix it.
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You might have it welded, you might have to uh use an easy out and tap it, you know, retap, redrill, tap.
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Um, you may have to, you know, do whatever needs to be done to repair something that's broken.
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If it can't be repaired, you have to replace it.
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Or maybe the repair of one thing means you've got to replace something else to make that repair.
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So then the machine's bad.
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To repair the machine, you're gonna replace the bearings.
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Well, that's replacement.
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Okay.
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So the definition of replacement is to substitute one component for another component that's basically the same for insurance compliance with code.
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And that's not for word for word, but that's basically the definition of uh replacement out of A171.
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So now we get the definition of alteration.
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An alteration is anything other than maintenance requirement replacement.
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So if you're not doing repair and you're not doing replacement, you're not doing maintenance, then it's an alteration.
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Now it's a little bit confusing because some replacements by code are classified as alterations.
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So if you replace your controller, even though it's a replacement, it's classified as an alteration.
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And that's what I was gonna ask, yeah, because it seemed like you know, controller, I mean, it's just gonna control it, but but to your point, it it specifically defines it as an alteration.
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That's correct.
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And and there's a few other things that it specifies.
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You place a hydraulic RAM or cylinder, it's classified as an alteration.
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Okay.
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So there's certain things in the in A17.
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So that's that's one reason why it gets kind of confusing.
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So now let's get back to my definition of modernization.
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My definition of a modernization is a series of repairs, replacements, and alterations.
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So if you're just repairing something, it's not it's not alteration.
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If you're just replacing something, it's not considered an alteration in the code, then it's just a replacement.
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But if you're altering something, then it's definitely an alteration.
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In in A17.1, there's a section 8.7 alterations.
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And in that section, it says if you do this alteration, you must also do this, that, and the other.
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Gotcha.
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So there's your series.
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Okay.
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So there's a series.
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So if you replace the driving machine as part of your alteration, you must also add the auxiliary brake.
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Okay.
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Uh unintended motion, that kind of thing.
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If you replace your controller as part of the alteration, you have to have a data tag giving you your minimum and maximum humidity and temperature ranges, which means you probably have to add air conditioning or do whatever it takes to stay within that range.
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You have to have your machine room have 19 foot candles of illumination.
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You have to have the 18-inch work clearance.
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Every side of the equipment requires access for maintenance.
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So there are things that are triggered by anything that's classified as an alteration.
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And when you do an alteration, you're supposed to, as part of the alteration, put on a data tag that gives the rule number for every alteration you're doing.
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Oh my.
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So you have to go through the alteration section of the code and say, I'm replacing the controller, I'm replacing the motion controller, I'm replacing the governor, I'm doing this, I'm doing that.
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Then you have to decide which of those are replacements, okay?
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They go over there, and which ones are alterations.
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And everything that's an alteration has to have the 8.7 point, whatever number on that data tag for that particular alteration.
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And that's so that when the inspector comes to inspect it, he'll know to look at the original code because that's already on the data plate, and then he'll see the alteration data plate, and he'll say, okay, these things have to be this code.
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That's why if it's a really old elevator, you might have the 1955 code for the original installation, and then you might have 1984, 1984 code for for the alteration if it was altered in 1984.
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Sure.
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One of the big problems the elevator guys have is that the eight the current code says you must put this data tag on.
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It shows the original installation code and then the code for each alteration.
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But if you've had a job that's been out there and been in service for years, how do you know when something was altered back in the day?
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It's almost impossible to go back and find those records.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Well, and do the best you can.
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Yeah.
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I mean, it sounds like you know, a single elevator may have multiple tags and books and codes and different decades.
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And so I'm just curious, what's the most challenging code puzzle you've had to solve?
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I think the most one that I can remember was the Citrus Tower.
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Now, in Florida, near Claremont, there's a there's a tall building, and it's just a tower, just a small round building, and it goes pretty high round.
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No, I think it's square.
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It doesn't matter.
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Oh, but it's called the Citrus Tower.
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And when it was built, and for many, many, many years, you could pay to go up in the tower and get a huge panoramic view of the Florida countryside.
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And all you can see is for as far as you can see, trees trees.
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Citrus trees, orange groves, lemon groves, just everything as far as you can see.
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You go up the tower today, you can't see anything but houses.
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Wow.
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Okay.
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Completely.
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There's the only orange trees you're gonna see is in someone's backyard.
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Okay.
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So when Florida adopted A173, which is a retroactive code for all existing elevators, an inspector went out there and he cited a whole litany of things that didn't meet code, um, including from A17.1 and A17.
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And so the building owners had called me and I went out to assist them with seeing what their elevator had to meet and what didn't meet.
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And the big issue was is what was the effective code for when it was installed?
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Because there was no data tag.
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Oh wow.
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Um, and there was no, there was no records of any kind of when this elevator was installed.
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It was uh, you know, back in back in the day it was it was Otis.
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Uh and it turns out it was installed before 1955.
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The problem, the problem they had was since this tower was the highest building for absolute miles and miles, they ended up being the uh recipient of a whole slew of uh radio antennas and cell antennas and uh just all kinds of stuff on the roof.
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The tower is so small that the machine room took up the whole space at the top of the at the top of the tower.
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Okay.
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So that means all of the equipment that's on the roof had to have the transmitters and equipment in the machine room, which the inspector wrote up as foreign equipment and had to get it all out of there, which of course would have been a disaster.
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And the room was too small to divide it into two rooms.
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Um, so but the earlier code, before the 55, didn't have such limitations.
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There was no it was no violation to have other equipment in the machine room.
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So we actually went back and had to go back into the county records to try to find when the building was built and the elevator was installed, which we did, which was pre-1955 code.
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So we just had those violations removed because they weren't really violations for that edition of the code.
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Gotcha.
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Now that's because A173 allows it to be there.
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You just can't add any new equipment into that space.
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Okay.
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Gotcha.
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Gotcha.
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:19.759
So how did you end up becoming the person that contractors, inspectors, states, attorneys call when they have uh code questions?
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Well, after being in business both as a mechanic and a elevator company owner uh for quite a number of years, I ended up selling my company to Montgomery Elevator and uh me and my partner.
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And he went to work for as a mechanic, and I went to work as a salesperson.
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And I was not happy there because he uh I was not allowed, in my opinion, I wasn't given the freedom to do the sales that I wanted to do.
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And so I took a position with the state as a state field inspector.
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I worked out in the field for the Bureau of Elevators for five years, and then I had occasion to write a couple of reports on fatalities in my area of elevator technicians.
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And I did the investigation of those, I wrote reports, and the uh supervisor at the Bureau of Elevators in Tallahassee was impressed by one of my reports from what he told me.
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And so I got promoted to the engineer three positions for the Bureau of Elevators, and in that position, I interpreted all the codes for the state of Florida.
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I represented the state on the ASM code committees, and I basically answered all the code questions for the entire state of Florida while I worked at the Bureau Office.
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And um, I got really good at finding answers quickly in the code book.
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Somebody would call with a question.
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Back then we didn't have PDF, so I had to open the book and I had to dig through the pages.
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But by the time I asked them a couple of questions about how the fishing was or the weather, or just, you know, small talk.
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Sure.
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You know, I just keep them busy for a couple of minutes, and then by the time I got done, I had my finger on the answer and I read them right out of the code book.
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And it turns out a lot of these guys thought I was quoting it verbatim off the top of my head.
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Maybe you were.
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Maybe you got it memorized.
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Well, later on, I you know, I I can.
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In some cases, I can quote rules off the top of my head because I've I've known them so well for so long, I can.
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But uh when I got started, I couldn't, but I I could find them quickly.
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And that's and I and that moved on into when I started giving continuing education for elevator uh inspectors and mechanics all over the country.
00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:22.639
And I had to do a lot of code research to find the changes in the code, to teach them the changes in the code and what the practical applications were.
00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:33.440
And because I'm giving this information to these people all over the country, they remember something from class and they'll say, they'll call me and they say, Hey, I think you said this in the class, you know, but why I have this problem.
00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:41.200
Since a lot of those questions come by email, I've accumulated hundreds and hundreds of email questions and answers.
00:16:41.360 --> 00:17:00.799
And I actually have a large email list where I will, if I get an interesting question and do a research to answer, because uh like I said, the codes are complicated, and on top of that, there's 33 published books of A17.1 interpretations by the code committees.
00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:07.200
So in addition to the actual code, there's 33 opinions about what it is really means.
00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:07.440
Okay.
00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:17.519
There's more than that because there are there are more interpretations on the ASME website that have not yet been published into a 33 published books of interpretations, right?
00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:30.960
And many times when I give somebody an opinion, and by the way, if I give an opinion, I I often put in there that these opinions are based on code and interpretations, but are not necessarily opinions of the AHJ.
00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:35.599
Make sure because they they have the authority to make their own interpretations.
00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:36.160
For sure.
00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:49.839
But but I will very often, when I give an a written interpretation, or even over the phone, I will give an interpretation from the ASM committee that clarifies that particular issue in the code.
00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:50.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:54.640
So do you enjoy solving these code puzzles or do they does it keep you up at night?
00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:55.920
Well, I love it.
00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:59.039
I mean, I mean, uh, you know, I'm I'm 75.
00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:00.319
I just turned 75.
00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:01.440
Good for you.
00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:03.279
I could have retired a long time ago.
00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:05.440
My wife's glad I'm not retired.
00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:06.880
Too much energy.
00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:07.759
I'd be running around.
00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:09.440
I'd be around too much, you know.
00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:19.440
So I still do expert witnessing, which does involve a lot of code research, and I still answer QA and I send email blasts on questions and answers out to my industry list.
00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:30.960
I try to do on a regular basis, and I just I just absolutely enjoy the research and digging deep into it so that I can, you know, a lot of people, code people, consultants.
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:36.559
So many times I've been asked, hey, this inspector, I asked him a question, he said this, is that right?
00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:42.480
And I'm like, you know, well, it's right to a point, but no, it's more complicated than that.
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:46.400
And and very often when people ask, you know, is this uh can you do this or not?
00:18:46.480 --> 00:19:01.119
And I said, well, it's not that simple, you know, because you just asked an elevator question, but they didn't tell me if it's a hydraulic or a traction or a rack and pinion, they didn't tell me if it's if it's a new installation or if it's a you know vintage installation or what you know what year it was built.
00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:02.480
You know, is it glass back?
00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:06.480
Is it you know, that that that there's so many different factors that come in.
00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:12.400
Generally, when I'm asked a question, I have to give them more questions to get enough information to answer the question.
00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:13.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:14.079
What's the context, right?
00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:19.039
Because without the context, it's like, well, exactly, can't give you a full answer then.
00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:20.559
Yes, right.
00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:24.720
But it's fun and it's it's it's enjoyable and and I love it.
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:38.160
But the whole issue is is that familiarity, you know, I've worked with it with enough that that, like you said, I can I can quote a lot of codes verbatim, um, and I can clarify a lot of things that sound confusing.
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:45.039
For example, the A17.1 for many years has had a rule under pits, construction of pits.
00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:52.240
And under rule 2.2.2.5, it says that all elevators with fireman service must have a sump pump.
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:55.279
And the sump pump has to remove S number one an hour.
00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:57.200
Now that's all elevators with fire service.
00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:10.799
So what happens when you go to an elevator that doesn't have fire service or has fire service but much earlier vintage, and you modernize that elevator, and so now you're adding or upgrading fire service.
00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:14.240
Do you have to go back and add a sump pump?
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:17.519
Because the code says if you have fire service, you've got to have a sump pump.
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:18.480
Does that apply?
00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:19.519
Yes or no?
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:20.960
Good question.
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:28.079
The answer is there's another rule in the very front of the code book that says this code applies to new installations only.
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:28.960
Oh wow.
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:29.200
Okay.
00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:30.400
With some exceptions.
00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:43.200
The engineering section, I believe, is accepted, the um A17.6, which is the maintenance section, is accepted, main the alteration section is accepted, um, and the testing section is accepted.
00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:46.000
So there's various things that are that don't apply.
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:58.559
So, in order to find out if you have to go back when you add fire service, if you're required to meet 2.2.2.5 and have a sump pump, you have to go to one of those sections to see if you have to go back there.
00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:11.200
So you would go to the alteration section, look for adding or upgrading fire service, see what those requirements are, and see if any of those requirements send you back to 2.2.2.5 because otherwise it only applies to do.
00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:12.400
And guess what?
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:13.759
There are none that do.
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:14.240
Okay.
00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:19.200
So you don't have to upgrade, you don't have to add a sump pump just because you add fire service.
00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:21.119
And there's an interpretation that says that.
00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:22.960
So you don't have to just take my opinion of it.
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:24.880
That's the ASME's code committee's opinion.
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:25.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:26.480
There's a lot to it.
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:30.480
And obviously, you've you reviewed countless lawsuits, injuries, fatalities.
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:34.000
What's something you've learned about human nature that maybe surprises you?
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:39.119
Well, number one is it is that uh memory is is uh fallible.
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:48.079
You know, a lot of people will say things in context of being deposed or something and and they they don't really remember exactly uh what it was.
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:59.759
Um people have a tendency to uh take the path of least resistance and um I wanna de delve into that a little bit, but uh when there's safety procedures to be followed, if uh
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:16.160
People don't take the necessary steps to do things safe that can be um essence as a word of the Well I remember talking with a uh safety vice president and and he was kind of saying that that you know, weekend holidays, you know, Friday nights, you know, people are kind of rushing to get out.
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:18.000
Have you seen that in your work as well?
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:24.559
That that this path of least resistance, let's just get this over with and we'll skip the the safety procedures.
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:31.039
You know, I can't say as I'm I've I've really correlated that to any of the the uh incidents I've been investigated.
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:31.440
Okay.
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:35.279
But I I know I know from experience that is definitely a fact.
00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:35.920
Okay.
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:38.240
Yep.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:38.960
Yep.
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:44.319
Um, and you had mentioned that that reading some technician depositions sometimes will make you cringe.
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:52.319
Uh, what do you think are the most common mistakes people make, not just in the shaft or in the pit when they're doing the work, but but when they're being questioned?
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:56.720
You mentioned fallibility of of memory, and maybe maybe that's part of it, right?
00:22:56.799 --> 00:22:59.599
Is is answering things that that's not the way you remembered.
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:00.640
Are you making something up?
00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:02.799
But what what are your impressions on that?
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:05.440
That mistakes when people are being deposed.
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:16.240
Yeah, if somebody, if you somebody says something that they don't know for sure, you need to preface it with I believe or I recall, you know, rather than saying this is that.
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:22.400
And you know, elevator guys should be aware of some things that I often find that they aren't aware of.
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:33.359
For example, I mean, one of the one of the major causes of accidents on elevators, you know, there are a couple, the two major ones that are usually discussed are people chipping over the cell because the floor is not exactly level.
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:35.279
Uh the other one is being hit by the door.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:43.359
Um, and door impacts, you know, the door closing force and the door kinetic energy are are regulated by code.
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:52.000
And so every technician should know what the maximum door closing force is and how to determine whether the kinetic energy is within code or not.
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:57.359
And uh, I find many elevator technicians will say, yes, I've checked the door force.
00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:02.559
Um what they mean is they put their hand on the door and they felt it stall, but that doesn't mean they read it with a gauge.
00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:05.359
Or they watch the door and yeah, it closes normally.
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:09.440
And what what's your and I've I've read depositions where technicians say this.
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:14.480
They say, Yeah, I, you know, I was there, I did the maintenance before the incident, you know, I watched the door close and it closed normally.
00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:16.799
And they say, Well, what is the requirement for the door?
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:19.359
Well, I I've just seen it so many times I know when it's up.
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:22.400
You know, which is not really uh a validation.
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:25.359
It's it's hard to hard to prove that in a court of law, right?
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:28.400
When you Yes, it's hard to prove that.
00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:48.079
But if the technician knew to say, well, the rule of thumb in the industry uh is if it doesn't close at more than one foot per second, and that door closed at 3.7 seconds, and it's a 42-inch door, which means 3.5 is enough, that means it's within code, because it took longer to close than the 3.5 seconds.
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:50.160
So you you you talked about with the meter.
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:57.200
I mean, and I don't think you're you're saying this, but is the implication that more technicians need to be checking with meters?
00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:01.599
I mean, because there's no way to know that the next person walking in is not going to get injured.
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:02.480
Oh, sure.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:04.720
But the the the spring gauge is adequate.
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:10.960
You know, you have one of those little little gauges, it's got a spring in it, and you just hold it the door.
00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:14.480
Um, a lot of I find a lot of guys don't really know how to use it.
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:18.480
Most technicians do, because you have to you can't read kinetic energy.
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:21.920
And so anytime mass is moving, it creates kinetic energy.
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:28.640
So, in order to read a door gauge, you have to stall the door, apply the gauge, let it move the gauge.
00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:30.079
But again, there's movement.
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:31.839
You can't read movement.
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:42.160
So the way that the inspector's guide says is that once it's once the gauge stalls the door, you back off on the gauge until the door starts to move, and that's where you read it to read your force.
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:44.480
Because otherwise you're reading kinetic energy.
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:47.279
So you wait until it actually pauses.
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:49.119
You stall the door and comes back.
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:49.440
Okay.
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:55.920
You let the door compress the gauge, and then you back off on the gauge until the door starts to move.
00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:57.039
Oh, interesting.
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:01.920
That's just out of pressure force, which is your closing force, maximum 30 pounds.
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:02.640
Gotcha.
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:03.279
Gotcha.
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:06.640
And then it then the kinetic energy is actually a calculation.
00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:25.759
But as I said, I wouldn't expect an average technician to do the calculations because you have to know the mass of the doors and the mass of all the moving components of the operator and all that, which you don't need that if you know that the the rule of thumb is one foot per second, and it takes longer than that to close your fine.
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:37.839
Now, under the newer codes, the all new operators have to have a tag on it, mark in the feet, you know, mark what the maximum door closing times is to stay within that kinetic energy force.
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:46.240
And we find many times that the uh guys doing uh installations will put on that tag what the speed is.
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:52.079
As a consultant, I've had it, uh I was a consultant from the city of Tampa, and we had a building with four elevators.
00:26:52.240 --> 00:27:00.319
They put new door equipment on all four elevators, all four with exact same doors, exact same operators.
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:06.880
And if you did the calculation, they would all be the same as to how much the what the minimum closing times are, okay?
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:07.920
Minimum closing times.
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:10.319
So the longer the time, the less connected energy.
00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:15.039
So but each each elevator had a different time on it, which can't, which isn't right.
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:25.039
So and what happened was instead of doing the calculation and putting the minimum time on, they just put down the actual time that it had, whether it was right or wrong.
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:29.599
So that's miss that's another place where it can be misunderstood what the requirement is.
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:30.640
For sure, for sure.
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:39.599
Well, yeah, yeah, the requirement and the implication, and like you say, if it becomes an investigation, just knowing how important that one little reading would have been.
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:44.880
Hey there, listeners, it's Matt, and I would love to know what you want to hear more of on the podcast.
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:55.839
If you have a topic in mind or a guest you'd like to hear from, head over to elevatorcareers.net and drop a suggestion in the box, or you can email podcast at elevatorcareers.net.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:57.920
The link will also be in the description below.
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:00.559
Thank you so much for being part of this conversation.
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:02.319
Now, back to the show.
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:05.680
And then the next important thing is documenting it.
00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:06.079
For sure.
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:12.559
If you're there doing maintenance and you happen to check the door closing force, it only takes five seconds, ten at the most.
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:16.480
Then before you leave, you should write that in the on-site records.
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:19.519
Door closing force, 15 pounds or 20 pounds.
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:23.839
And I can tell you what, that has saved a lot of elevator companies a lot of money.
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:31.759
When I go out as an expert, somebody claimed they got hit by the door and it was too much force, they got pinned, it crushed them, whatever.
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:44.319
Um, and I go into the machine room, and the technician, when he did his regular maintenance, he put down door closing force, 20 pounds, uh door closing speed, 3.8 seconds.
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:47.440
That just right there says the elevator company didn't do anything wrong.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:47.920
Right, right.
00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:55.519
But if we go back afterwards and we find it's the same as what the guy he saw wrote down before, it couldn't have been out of code when that person got hit by the door.
00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:56.000
Sure.
00:28:56.240 --> 00:28:57.039
Yeah, good point.
00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:02.640
But if but if they're not writing it down and not checking it, it's like your guess is good as very difficult to defend the case.
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:03.759
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:04.319
Exactly.
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:07.920
And by the way, I don't work just defense, I work plaintiffs too.
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:12.400
So, you know, make sure you do it right because I don't want to be on the other side with my elevator buddies.
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:13.039
Exactly.
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:25.599
No, I mean it sounds like you you you do deal on both sides of these investigations, and and I I'm curious, without naming any names, what's maybe one of those most unusual or memorable expert witness cases you've ever worked on?
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:29.359
Well, the fatalities are always the most memorable.
00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:34.960
And I and I've had a number of them, most of them being elevator personnel.
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:39.680
Some years ago, the state out and odd, what they call the not style valve.
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:42.319
I got one, but I don't have it here in my office.
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:46.640
Uh, but it's a valve, uh shutoff valve, and it doesn't have a handle on it.
00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:48.240
You need a wretch to turn it.
00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:54.319
It's a cast iron body, and it has a uh bronze core that's cone-shaped.
00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:59.119
So it's, you know, the coat the core is like this long and it's cone-shaped and it has a hole through it.
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:03.119
And it goes down to that body, and if you turn it, it shuts off the oil flow.
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:07.759
And if you turn it the other way so the hole lines up with the pipe, then the oil flows through.
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:09.759
But there's no seals in it.
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:17.200
To make the seal, this cone-shaped core has a threaded rod sticking out the bottom.
00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:19.839
You put a nut on it and you tighten it up.
00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:27.680
And when you tighten it tight, it seals that that brass or bronze to the uh to the cast iron and it doesn't leak.
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:35.119
And it's called noctile because if you want to open or close that valve, that that's that's bound in there now because you tighten it down.
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:38.880
You have to loosen the nut just a little bit and tap up on it from the bottom.
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:39.759
So it'll spin.
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:43.279
Just just so it spins easy, and then you can turn it on and off, right?
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:55.680
Well, the problem is that Dover was making hydraulic elevators, and they came out with a valve that looks from the top and the side, it looks exactly the same, but there's no nut in the you just put your wrench on it and turn it.
00:30:55.920 --> 00:31:07.759
Well, the guys that are familiar with that valve, but not familiar with the next dial valve, they put the wrench on it and, like, man, this thing's tight, and they'd force it, which could shear the threaded stud out of the bottom.
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:08.319
Oh wow.
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:12.079
And then the pressure would blow that cone up in the air and the elevator would fall.
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:12.559
Sure.
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:15.920
Just as fast as oil would come out of the line, which is pretty fast, I can tell you.
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:16.720
Yeah, especially under pressure.
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:28.559
And so we had it had a case where uh an elevator technician was in a pit, and we don't know what he was doing because he never he didn't live to tell the tail, but for some reason he was working in the pit and that valve blew apart.
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:36.559
And instead of laying down in the pit where you have a refuge area, he saw the car coming down and he tried to beat it out by crawling out of the pit.
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:38.319
And it ended up basically cutting.
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:39.039
Sure.
00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:57.279
And uh one of the things that set hit so hard for me on that was it recalled when I was a young elevator guy, and I was working on an installation, and it turns out that when somebody put a pipe together in the machine room, this elevator was not past inspection yet.
00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:59.200
We were preparing it for inspection.
00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:09.279
But when they when they screwed the uh piping together, they didn't protect the components of the valve from being over-tightened when they were tightening the pipe.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:14.480
So what they did was is they they threaded the fine threads that hold the valve together.
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:24.240
So when we over-pressured the system to get the relief pressure to prepare for our inspection, which was gonna be the next morning, the valve blew apart.
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:27.440
And it was oil rushing coming out and it was gushing everywhere.
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:36.000
And my first thought was, oh my god, it's the oil's going everywhere, it's gonna destroy the flooring here, you know, down the hallway and all this stuff.
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:38.079
So my first thought was to stop the oil flow.
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:43.839
The hoistway door was open, the machine room was on the ground floor, so I ran around and I jumped into the pit.
00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:45.920
And as the elevator descended.
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:50.319
And as the elevator's descending, I jumped in the pit and shut the valve off.
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:52.640
In retrospect, that was a pretty stupid.
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:56.319
I mean, a split second, you you wouldn't have lived to tell the tale.
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:57.039
Yeah.
00:32:57.599 --> 00:32:58.720
You know, who, yeah.
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:07.200
It's um so anyway, because of because of my experience, you know, that particular accident, you know, hit home more than more than some others.
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:09.519
So I mean it's all of them are all of them are terrible.
00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:12.079
Yeah, I mean, it's a split second decision, right?
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:15.359
And and it can happen that fast for sure.
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:27.440
What what would you say are, you know, just kind of looking back at at some of those challenging cases, what are some of the safety rules that people are most tempted to skip and why is that so dangerous?
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:42.000
Well, the ones that they are, in my experience, and and the ones with you know injuries and things like that, the ones that are skipped most often are the safety procedures found in the elevator industry field employee safety handbook.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:51.119
They've got safety procedures in the and the primary one is for safe access into the hoist way and into the pit because it there's a procedure to follow.
00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:52.640
It takes a few minutes.
00:33:52.880 --> 00:34:03.759
When you're going to get on a car top, you know, you you uh open the door, you put the elevator on stop, close the door, you set up a call, make sure the car doesn't run.
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:10.639
You open the door, you put the car on inspection, take it off stop, close the door, make sure the car doesn't run.
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:13.440
You also check the interlock to make sure the car doesn't run.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:18.239
So now you've got three different devices that you know will keep the car from running on normal.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:22.960
Then you have it on inspection and stop as you cross onto the car top.
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:24.880
So you actually have three protections.
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:29.039
The interlock's open, the stop switch is in the stop position, the car's on inspection.
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:37.280
When you're crossing that threshold, going from the car, the sill to the car top, you want to make sure that that car is not going to move.
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:50.239
For example, when I was a state inspector, this is another memorable one for me, to get on a car top, my standard procedure was to go to the second level, send the car to the first level, open the door and get on the car top.
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:54.960
These were short floors, so I didn't have to catch the car in flight to step on the car top.
00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:58.559
I just let it go to floor level, open the door, make sure nobody got in.
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:05.199
And I'm standing there getting ready to put it on inspection, holding the door open, and the car just takes off and runs right by me at high speed with the door.
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:10.159
I'm standing there holding the door open, and that car is just zip by me at high speed.
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:13.840
And I'm like, oh my God, I could have been leaching in there to hit the stop switch.
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:14.559
Right.
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:15.440
Right?
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:32.000
That's why when you open the door, you want to make sure the car is not going to run before you hit the stop switch and close the door to see if it's I mean it sounds like there's like you say, there's three kind of safety mechanisms, checks, and and if you're cutting corners or trying to hurry, you might expose yourself to some real risk.
00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:32.880
Yeah, you do.
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:34.079
You absolutely do.
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:42.000
In fact, when I do expert witnessing work, oftentimes there's more than one expert there when we examine the equipment.
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:44.960
Because if you could you'll have multiple parties in a lawsuit, right?
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:48.559
You'll you have the plaintiff, there'll always be a plaintiff, otherwise there wouldn't be a lawsuit.
00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:50.320
They usually have their own expert.
00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:53.679
Then you have the the elevator company, which is normally sued.
00:35:53.840 --> 00:36:00.719
Then you have a building owner, and sometimes the building owner and the elevator company are blaming each other, so they'll have their own experts.
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:05.360
And now that so much of the elevator inspections across the country is privatized.
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:09.440
I got a case right now where the elevator inspection firm is also being sued.
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:11.679
So you got multiple experts on site.
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:21.360
And I've been there, and uh I'll watch the other experts, and I'll often see them open the car top and just step on the car top without following the procedures.
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:35.840
I've had a number of cases where elevator personnel were killed in the pit because they didn't check the stop, they didn't turn the stop switch off, then close the door and make sure it wouldn't run with the stop switch in the stop position, uh, and end up getting uh seriously injured or killed.
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:38.400
So, yes, those procedures are shortcuts.
00:36:38.480 --> 00:37:07.679
And another procedure that can take time, and people would be tempted to do a shortcut, especially with traction elevators, and that is the requirement that if you're gonna do work that doesn't require moving the car, you're supposed to lock out tag out the elevator, which means that on a traction elevator, uh, if you're gonna work in the pit and you're not gonna need power, you got to go all the way to the roof, to the machine room, remove power, and then come back down and do your work and then go all the way back up to unlock it again.
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:08.719
But that's really the sense of the thing.
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:09.199
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:14.480
Well, and you you highlight that uh, you know, you're there doing an investigation, maybe got four experts.
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:23.599
If those experts aren't following correct procedure, they they could end up doing the exact same thing or being injured because safety doesn't prefer one or the other, right?
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:26.400
Just because you're an expert doesn't mean you're not gonna get get yourself in trouble.
00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:31.199
So um you had mentioned um you know one of the biggest problems is poor documentation.
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:35.519
What would you say separates excellent documentation from from poor documentation?
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:37.760
Just providing adequate information.
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:45.920
I've got a case right now where there was uh uh an entrapment caught, you know, and and uh resulting in a claimed injury.
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:51.440
I I'm not a medical person, so I can't say you know whether it's you know valve injury or not.
00:37:51.599 --> 00:38:00.239
Uh but you know my job is to uh determine what the elevator did or didn't do and the in and whether the elevator was properly maintained and that type of thing.
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:10.000
And so the the uh the record says that the technician came out and he found a uh bad communication between the controller and something else, and he replaced the board.
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:10.480
That's it.
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:11.360
That's all it says.
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:12.320
What board?
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:15.360
Uh you know, what what what caused the elevator to stop?
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:17.119
What was the underlying factor here?
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:24.480
So that's the documentation you have, and then so later, sometime you have somebody getting injured, and that's just not enough to go on, right?
00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:24.880
Right.
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:32.159
Well, it was injured just prior to this record because this record was produced after the technician came out to find out why the elevator stopped.
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:35.199
Okay, so so the elevator technician came out.
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:37.360
Um, he didn't log any faults.
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:42.639
You know, he didn't say, oh, there was a power fault, there was a encoder fault, there was a this fault or that fault.
00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:43.440
There's no nothing.
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:48.320
He just said that there was a communication failure and that the there was bad board.
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:50.079
But he didn't say replace the board.
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:52.480
He didn't say what board was bad.
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:55.599
You know, there was very little for me to go on.
00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:55.840
Okay.
00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:59.199
Yeah, just the board and a board.
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:01.199
And that that that really tells me nothing.
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:09.039
And uh the problem is, of course, is that the lawsuits generally don't come in until just before the end of the statutes or limitations.
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:10.480
So he's gonna say it's long enough.
00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:14.079
You can't remember that guy might not even be there anymore.
00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:14.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:15.360
Can't remember.
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:16.159
Very interesting.
00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:17.119
Can't remember.
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:24.320
By the way, when when guys are being deposed, I I mentioned that one of the things they that they do is say things that they're not sure of.
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:30.880
But one of the things they need to know when they do a deposition is that you don't have to always come up with an answer.
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:36.239
I don't know, or I don't recall, are perfectly valid answers.
00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:37.440
You don't look stupid.
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:38.559
It's better than making something up.
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:46.320
I I one time was in a deposition and this guy gave me a whole string of questions that were absolutely way off topic.
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:48.159
And he says, Well, do you know this?
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:49.119
Do you know that?
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:50.079
Do you know that?
00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:55.119
And for like 10 or 12 questions in a row, I said, I don't know.
00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:56.079
I don't know.
00:39:56.239 --> 00:39:58.800
And at the end of that, he says, Well, you don't know much, do you?
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:03.119
And he I says, Well, I know a lot, you're just not asking the right questions.
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:11.119
So, yeah, um, there's nothing wrong with with saying I don't know or I don't recall.
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:16.639
And if later in the deposition something they say triggers their memory, then you can say, Oh, you know what?
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:20.719
A while ago I said I don't remember, but you just said something that triggered that memory.
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:24.239
Now I can tell you, and this is the this is this is my answer, you know.
00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:29.920
And of course, the main thing I can tell anybody about given a deposition is to tell the truth.
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:40.079
Because more likely than not, as thorough as as the investigations go, if they find out the truth and and you've lied, then it's uh you're in a lot, you're in a lot of trouble.
00:40:40.159 --> 00:40:48.079
And you've done your you've done your employer a horrible disservice because Lee, I've got uh just a couple questions for you as we wrap up.
00:40:48.320 --> 00:41:00.159
So, first one, you know, when you look across your decades of working in the industry, of of investigating accidents and litigation, and what recurring lesson does the elevator industry need still need to learn?
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:03.840
Well, I tried hard to um to teach code.
00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:12.000
One of the issues we have is that a lot of the technicians get most of their continuum education from the practical applications, which is very important.
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:13.119
They have to know their job.
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:19.599
They have to know how to fix elevators, they know they have to know how to do the troubleshooting, they have to know how to do all these things.
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:49.679
But if you're if your continuum education doesn't include a code component, um, you really need to do some investigation into that and to to uh know what the requirements are in your particular jurisdiction because oftentimes your local jurisdiction will have revisions to, and Florida's no exception, but so are many other jurisdictions, that they will have amendments or deletions from the national codes in their local, uh local requirements, and they need to be familiar with those plans.
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:50.320
Absolutely.
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:51.679
No, it's a good good point.
00:41:51.920 --> 00:42:01.679
Obviously, you've you've seen this industry from pretty much every angle mechanic, contractor, inspector, code committee, member, instructor, consultant, expert witness.
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:05.440
Which role would you say has taught you the most and why?
00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:10.480
Oh boy, you know, each role has taught me a different facet.
00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:11.280
Sure.
00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:21.519
Uh and so, you know, the working as a mechanic taught me a lot about safety and just about perseverance and troubleshooting and that kind of thing.
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:27.840
The expert witnessing has basically taught me what can go wrong, you know, if I don't follow those procedures.
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:37.760
The teaching helped to solidify and reinforce my uh code research that I learned while I was with the Bureau of Elevator Safety as a code enforcement uh guy.
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:43.519
You know, and and actually teaching is probably the best thing that's helped me be a good expert.
00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:53.039
Because when it comes to doing expert witnessing, the whole point of the thing is to uh explain to the jury in ways that they can understand.
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:58.159
Because elevators in the codes are very complex, like I said a number of times.
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:17.280
And so if you can explain it in simple terms so the jury can understand it, you know, uh uh there was there was one time when I had to explain a hydraulic elevator and how it works, and the uh the expert for the other side uh said that you know this happened on this hydraulic elevator, and I was trying to tell the jury that it just was not possible.
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:22.400
And I actually had a a uh Dover I2 valve and I had it in my lap.
00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:35.360
And I had all the bolts and everything loose so that I could disassemble it by hand in the jury box to the jury and took the components and showed it to them and explained it to him and put it back, you know, put it back together.
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:45.920
And after the trial, and we won the trial, uh, I was working for defense, and uh after the trial, the jury was pooled as to why they, you know, why they went the verdict for defense.
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:50.480
And uh a couple of them said, Well, we didn't know what that uh what that guy was talking about.
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:52.960
He took that thing apart and he explained everything.
00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:56.239
Uh but obviously he knew what he's talking about and we believe him.
00:43:57.760 --> 00:43:59.360
So Exactly.
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:06.239
No, that's uh yeah, you got to build the have the credibility and knowing how it works and and all of that is is so key.
00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:09.199
So each of those roles really combined, right?
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:11.199
You couldn't do one without the other, right?
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:16.639
You couldn't be an expert witness without having been a mechanic and and done some of those things, at least not in the same way.
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:25.440
So I feel very fortunate to be in this industry and very fortunate that I had the opportunity to wear so many different hats.
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:26.000
For sure.
00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:27.840
And to learn so many different things.
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:36.079
And that's another reason why, you know, I'm semi-retired and I but I can't give it up, and that's because, you know, I think I still have a lot to share.
00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:39.440
You know, and uh I'm very glad to be able to do that.
00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:41.119
And it's just it's just my joy in life.
00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:41.679
That's awesome.
00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:44.320
Lee, anything else you'd like to say before we wrap up?
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:48.639
Yeah, I'm doing a river keeper paddle again, uh, 107 miles over five days.
00:44:48.719 --> 00:44:49.599
It's a fundraiser.
00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:50.400
I love it.
00:44:50.559 --> 00:45:02.559
I'll be put I'll be putting out an email blast asking for contributions, and a lot of my elevator people who that I've known uh for years and uh have been able to call them when I needed something, or they called me when they needed something.
00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:05.039
And I appreciate everybody who's helped me with that.
00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:12.639
And uh I always try to give back not only to the elevator industry, but to other other places I can as well.
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:14.400
So no, it's awesome that you can do it.
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:17.920
I mean at age seventy five, you're still rowing 100 miles in five days.
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:19.280
I mean, that's amazing.
00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:20.800
It's really awesome.
00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:21.679
Good for you.
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:22.320
Well, thank you.
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:23.360
Thank you so much, Matt.
00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:23.840
Thank you.
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:25.519
I appreciate uh appreciate your time.
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:32.559
I I appreciate the time, your expertise, and uh yeah, thank you for all you do for the for the industry and keeping us within the codes.
00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:39.440
Thank you for listening to the Elevator Careers Podcast, sponsored by the Allred Group, a leader in elevator industry recruiting.
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:46.000
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00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:47.440
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00:45:47.599 --> 00:45:49.840
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