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Today's guest built her first six-figure company at 11 years old, and now in her 30s, she's company is collectively valued at over$1 billion.
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What she told me on the show today, she says most founders at her level are too scared to say publicly.
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Jess Ma, welcome to the Grateful Podcast.
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Thank you so much for being here.
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Great to be here, great to chat, and uh awesome that you're getting to do this from your dorm room, by the way.
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Yes, it's pretty cool, it's authentic.
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I know you like you talk a lot about authenticity.
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I think I I'm at a point where soon it'll be much more professional setups, but there's something cool about learning with somebody from their home and just being with them as they ask people questions.
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I think that contributes to the overall authenticity of the conversation.
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Yeah, I like that a lot.
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I agree with that.
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Um, and generally speaking, I think a lot of the content out there is not like the real content.
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And we talked a little bit about this beforehand because um people on the internet are weird, right?
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And so unfortunately, like the best secrets you're never gonna like hear about on YouTube.
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Um, but that's okay.
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That just means that there's still gonna be value in getting to like actually know people one-on-one, like have lunch meetings, have coffee meetings, you know, fly somewhere and take someone you want to meet out for dinner and then ask them the real follow-up questions.
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And those secrets you're not gonna be able to find with like going to Chat GPT and saying, hey, tell me all of you know Jess Ma's best business secrets, you know, like it's just not there.
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And um, I think that's kind of beautiful because we we're getting a little lazy in the age of AI.
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We think AI will give us everything that we want and everything that we need.
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That's just simply not true.
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And now, more than more so than ever, you know, all it, you know, it it it's uh it's making these in-person relationships and genuine connections more precious.
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So um I think that's cool.
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Yeah, I heard you talk about on a previous podcast how you get all of your ideas from actually talking to people.
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And you'll even pay to talk to experts about things so you can learn more and solve a problem that way.
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So beyond just the idea of connection, you have to connect in order to be able to solve a problem because you can't find a problem that people need help with if you're not connecting with them.
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So why why do you think so many people are opting just for the for for the Chat GPT beyond just the fact that it's the easy type when all you have to do is talk to people to figure out what they really want?
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I think there's a bit of an intimidation factor as well when it comes to meeting people live.
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I mean, for background, what I do for a living is I meet really cool people, I brainstorm business opportunities with them.
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And sometimes it's their idea, sometimes it's my idea.
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And then if you think it's cool, then we go build it.
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In fact, right before you and I hopped on this call, I was on a call with someone who um knows a ton of YouTube creators with millions and millions of followers.
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And he happens to be, you know, now at least a friend of mine.
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And we just do like half an hour, hour and a half long brainstorms on business ideas.
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And I think we found one that we're stoked about.
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And he came to me, he's like, hey, Jess, can we sit down?
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I've got like three ideas I want to pitch you.
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And I told him that I thought all of them sucked, but one of them, if it shifted a certain way, I think could be a really great idea.
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And so we jammed on that.
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It took us about five hours of brainstorming, by the way, to get that into a place where I'm like, wow, this can mint like tens of millions of dollars a year with no investors.
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And that process, though, that patience required to take five hours with this guy, I don't think a lot of people have that patience.
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I think a lot of really busy people, they say, Oh, I'll give you half an hour of my time, or I'll give you an hour of my time.
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But to really get those golden nuggets, it's at that the five-hour mark, the 10-hour mark, where you get those those best insights and people don't want to wait that long.
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It's kind of like in sales outreach.
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If you listen to a lot of uh sales outreach experts, they say that if you cold email your customers, it's on the seventh or eighth cold outreach email before the other side replies, right?
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So if that's the case, people are giving up way too soon when they only send two or three cold emails to try to get in touch with someone, right?
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And uh same thing in in business ideation.
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It's the hour five to hour 10, 10 mark.
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So, what do you talk about for 10 hours?
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Because I think most people, yeah, they are they are having the quick meetings, and I see it all the time, especially which is a little bit contradictory to what you said.
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The most successful people I'm I'm seeing, they're like, oh, I'll give you 15 minutes of my time, or uh these these really tiny blocks.
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What do you talk about for the 10 hours, the five to 10 hours that gets you to that point?
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Because I think I could have a conversation with someone for 10 hours and talk about nothing, right?
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But you have to tailor it in a certain way in order to get the value that you're getting out of these conversations.
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Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like a dance, right?
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I think, you know, this gives me this idea, Jack, that I think at one point maybe I should just record this process where I sit down with like different people and like we just do this for five hours straight and see what happens.
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Because that's the only way to really demonstrate this.
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But in a nutshell, I think it's just like brainstorming and like you know, riffing off each other, like, well, how what if we did this instead?
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Or like, hey, what if we tried, you know, this product offering?
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How would how do you think your customers would respond, right?
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Or, you know, so it's like asking a lot of questions, hearing a lot of answers, and then coming up with new follow-up questions and doing that, like that can easily be hours and hours and hours.
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Just because like I I have a lot of questions, like I want to understand, you know, um all the different ways we can make a real business out of something.
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So um, and then also it's it's using like Claude or Chat GBT in real time.
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Like, all right, hey, Chat GBT, like we have this idea, it still sucks.
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Here's why I think it sucks.
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I think the market might, you know, not be big enough, or I think this business model is not great, or here's our product vision, but it it doesn't solve the big enough problem, help give us more ideas to like tease out our brainstorming.
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So I use it as a sparring partner a lot for this in particular.
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Um and so that will then create another few hours of content.
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So yeah, you're not gonna run out of time.
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And also you're doing it in chunks, right?
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You're doing like say an hour, hour and a half, and then you have another hour and a half follow-up.
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And you know, so it's not like an hour chunk.
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Right.
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You have time to think on it in between and maybe contribute new ideas that came up in in that time.
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And it seems like you're always thinking of ideas.
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I mean, even right there in that answer, you said, oh, well, I have an idea, maybe I could record it, right?
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Your brain is idea focused, you're always doing that.
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You came up with an idea at 11, which is insane.
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And you had four employees at that age.
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I I can relate in some not crazy way, but I had four employees at the age of 17, and I don't know how you felt with that, but I I hid my age from my employees.
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I did not want them to know that I was 17.
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Maybe they're watching this now and like, oh my god, Jack, you were young.
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But I felt somewhat embarrassed, but I think I was it's because I was older at that point.
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Like, as an 11-year-old, there's nothing to hide.
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You you have to have the idea and have the utmost confidence in it.
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So is this just something that's been built into you from a very young age?
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Yeah, I mean, to be clear, like, you know, I had part-time folks when I was um uh in my teens building businesses, and they're just random people I met online, and I could just PayPal them money.
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So it wasn't like a high bar.
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And as long as someone gets paid, you know, they see see money in their PayPal account, they were happy to do some work.
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Right, yeah.
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Right.
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Um, but um yeah, I've always been into business creation really as the art form.
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I think a lot of people see business more in a like, we need to create a business to make a certain amount of money, and you know, and while that pressure certainly exists, um, I think it is more fun when it's treated as an art form.
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And, you know, a business doesn't have to be big for it to still be widely successful, right?
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Like if a business creates a new lifelong friendship for you, if a business like really changes the lives of a lot of its customers, that's like really successful.
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That's massive, you know?
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Yeah.
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So what is your what is your why behind business?
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Because you're still going, you're incredibly successful, you've had uh you've built an amazing career.
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And part of what is so interesting is you've you've built businesses in places where I would find boring, like in these niches that don't really uh you're like, what what are you talking about?
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That's a thing, right?
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So what what is it that drives you to to keep going and to keep continuing to build?
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Yeah, I mean, right now I've got a ton of new businesses that are being launched this year, and why I'm excited about it is because all of these co-founders who I'm partnering with on these businesses, they um, you know, they see this opportunity with AI.
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I'm able to help them bring that to life.
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And I'm seeing how these people are like so excited, and and that brings me a lot of joy.
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So a lot of this is just like helping make other people more successful, makes me really happy and seeing them win.
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Um and so I'm moving from having to be like the entrepreneur and the person who's like uh the person who runs that business, um, to like I'm actually behind the scenes, I'm like behind the curtain, and I really want them to be able to take off with it.
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And so, yeah, that's the common thread for me, Jack.
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Um and uh it's kind of like why do you know business coaches do what they do?
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You know what?
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They like to kind of see their clients grow, and and that's the same with me.
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I want to see my entrepreneurs grow and do cool things, and also, you know, these businesses like make impact very quickly.
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I mean, I mean, yeah, it's it's just you could bring these things to life within 30, 60 days, potentially.
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And so I think that we're in a very special time in that sense, Jack.
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So um, and now, you know, I get calls from like right after I talked to you, I've got a billionaire who uh reached out to me and said, Hey, like, I really want to bring X to life.
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I'm not gonna say what it is, um, but it's healthcare related.
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And he's got tens of millions of dollars he's put behind this idea already, but it's a total um total mess.
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And he needs help building out the management team and making it so it can actually, you know, be a standalone business that takes in smart money.
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And I'm like, yeah, I'll help you out with that, you know?
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So I just get these calls all the time, Jack.
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And I'm just trying to help people.
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And how how I get paid on it, like, I don't really know sometimes coming in.
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Um, and that's okay.
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At what point did people start to reach out to you and say, hey, Jess, I have this idea.
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I want your help in building this, I want your help in creating something awesome.
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Because I know it hasn't always been that way.
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Yeah, I think I got more calls after I started doing a lot of just like giving back to the entrepreneur community and the investor community with no expectation of anything back.
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So just like doing favors, like showing up and um doing, you know, free advice calls for people.
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And people are like, oh yeah, would you like help talk to my son about their, you know, business idea?
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Like things like that, where you you know there's no business that's gonna come from that.
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But you show up and you're like, you know what, I'm gonna help you and your son out because I care about you and because why not?
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And then and then three months later, that person's like, you know what?
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Like one of my business partners or someone I'm doing a deal with is this big shot who needs your help.
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Would you talk to them?
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And then that then leads to a deal, you see?
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So all of those chances you have to help someone out, even if it doesn't seem like it's gonna be relevant, it leads to stuff.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And one of the things that's the most clear that through lines your entire story, and I think is so cool, is that you have always been a people first person, and that's how you're getting your success, right?
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And people are really scared.
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I hear a lot of fear in the people I talk to.
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Like, what is AI going to replace?
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And the truth is, I think the most successful people are always people first, always relationship first, where you're wanting to build genuine connection, wanting to serve first, and business comes as a byproduct of that service.
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Yes, that's correct.
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Yeah, I mean, that's why I'm not worried about having to do like a lot of outreach.
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I don't do any outreach to like look for opportunities.
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Like I already have too many.
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I have a whole like list in my head of dozens of these, you know, opportunities.
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And if anything, the question is how do I narrow that down?
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Um, so I don't I don't have any um scarcity would be the word.
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I don't feel that scarcity.
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And it's also just easier to to live and operate this way where I'm not worried about like where the next thing will come from.
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Um and yeah, I think I just magnetize it.
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So it's it's uh it sounds like not very scientific.
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And I think a lot of people when they look for content, they're trying to figure out like what is like the trick.
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It's like there's no real trick.
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It's like just over a long stretch of time, do a lot of things for free, offer a lot of favors, help people out, and then like people think about you.
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You're not willing to do more than you're being paid for, you'll never be paid for more than you're doing.
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And I think that's one of my favorite quotes I tell people when they talk about that stuff, because I mean you've you've lived that.
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I think where I'm really curious, and when I showed some of my friends who are building things, your profile and what you're doing, what they were super curious about as well is with these ideas that so many people are talking about these days, whether these niche and specific, maybe ideas that have nothing related to what you're interested in, right?
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Like, I don't know why chiropractors always come up when people are talking about stuff, but like vertical systems for chiropractors.
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How do you go about finding these obscure things?
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And then once you've got that, how do you keep the motivation going through that?
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Because I know people that have started things and like I just have no emotional connection to what I'm doing.
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Where do you create that emotional connection and these things that don't have anything that's related to your life so far?
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Yes, great question.
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Um, it's from these people who um call me saying they need support, and they made money in this obscure area.
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Okay.
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So they say, hey, I have something I'm working on in this obscure area or something I want to work on in this obscure area.
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Can you help me?
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And so then I can come in and and help offer support.
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Um, but it's usually their idea and their domain expertise, not mine.
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That's the key.
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Okay.
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And um yeah, I I I don't come up with those myself.
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I don't try to brainstorm with Chat GPT, like that's that's not the way to do it.
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You have to find someone who's like just done that for 20 years, and that's like what they obsess about, um, and partner with them.
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Yeah.
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So I don't do anything.
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I used to try to do stuff on my own, and those things um would not be as successful as the projects where I'm teaming up with someone who's already like been successful in a esoteric area.
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Interesting.
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So for someone that's looking to create something like that, right?
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And they I think a lot of young people they don't really have expertise in anything.
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So they would need to find somebody.
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How do you recommend they go about that process?
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Yeah, if you're less experienced and you're trying to meet people in esoteric areas, I mean, A, it's from a lot of conferences, right?
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Like I'm on the road traveling all the time, meeting random people.
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So you kind of have to be open to that.
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I go to a lot of entrepreneur dinners and I meet a lot of great people I'm collaborating with just from sitting next to them randomly at these events.
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Um, and then also I host my own events um several a year.
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Um, I just had one in Park City um last weekend that was widely successful.
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And, you know, have a few people where I'm looking at doing opportunities with some of them because of this retreat.
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And um, so yeah, I'll probably do four or five of those three or four day long retreats per year because it's such a great way for me to meet cool people.
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Um, and you could start that anytime.
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I mean, when I was in college um at UC Berkeley studying computer science, um I would invite speakers to chat with the student group, and then I would just become friends with the speaker.
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Yeah, you know, and I threw a conference, right?
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I started TED X Berkeley, like the TED Talks, but at UC Berkeley.
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Yeah.
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And, you know, all the speakers became friends of mine.
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And um, and then I hosted two hackathons.
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Um, so like you just create an excuse to bring people, and you don't need any credentials to do that.
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So that's how I got the idea to like bring people together.
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And when I call people, I say, please show up, they do.
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And if they don't show up to the first thing, I've got like four other options for them to show up to something, and they're different, right?
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Like I have one thing that's called AI sleep away camp.
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:28.400
Okay.
00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:32.960
It's literally a multi-day weekend trip for AI nerds.
00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:33.440
Yeah.
00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:45.599
So I'm bringing, you know, like amazingly brilliant AI nerds, um, mostly in San Francisco, to just like hang out and work on stuff for a weekend, right?
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:52.720
And uh yeah, so um it's stuff like that where I'm meeting cool people.
00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:57.920
I'm running this podcast, I'm running a business, and I'm also a full-time neuroscience student.
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:03.759
Sometimes, no matter how grateful and ambitious I am, my brain just doesn't want to keep up.
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:16.000
And I know that you know the feeling of having all these things you value so much that you just don't feel like you have the time or the focus to get done, and that's exactly why I take Magic Mind every single morning.
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:24.079
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00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:30.000
crash, but you get all the energy, all the clarity, and all the focus to accomplish your goals.
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:34.000
And I've been taking it every single morning because of those exact things.
00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:41.119
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00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:56.880
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00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:59.200
Go try it and let me know what you think.
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:01.839
Let's get back to this awesome episode.
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:21.359
You have been on magazine covers, you've built companies worth hundreds of millions of dollars, and you've said publicly that you still feel like you're not doing enough, and that you feel like a lot of your colleagues that are in the same scenario aren't necessarily open about that feeling.
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:33.440
What does it feel like when you have everything that you've been told is supposed to make you happy, but you don't always feel that reflected on the inside?
00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:35.920
Yeah, that's a really good question.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:46.240
I think that most entrepreneurs they think they want FU money, right?
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:53.119
And the the phrase FU money basically means you have enough money to do whatever you want and never need to work again.
00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:53.759
Okay.
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:59.759
And I've concluded that everyone who says that and then obtains that.
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:07.759
Still tries to get more and they're still not happy or as happy as they know they're capable of being.
00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:16.000
And I know this because I've been in CEO groups and circles where people sell their companies and make bajillions of dollars.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:21.519
And we ask them, How happy are you on a one to ten scale today?
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:34.319
And the the day or a month after they have the FE money, they typically say they're a nine out of ten, sometimes a 10 out of 10 for that month.
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:34.880
Okay.
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:41.039
And then the month after that, their score drops to either an eight or a seven.
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:47.119
And then oftentimes it just lingers at whatever their prior baseline was.
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:51.279
Because we track the scores over exactly.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:53.920
It just reverts back to the mean.
00:22:54.079 --> 00:23:02.400
And we know this because we have actual data, and because I've been tracking this data, you know, on spreadsheets for over a decade talking to these CEOs.
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:02.960
Okay.
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:06.720
And so I saw this happen so many times.
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.960
I realize now people want something different, you know.
00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:20.000
They want, and a lot of the time, um, it's not for everyone, you know, some people just are addicted to the adrenaline rush, but a lot of people want FUPs.
00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:21.359
Okay.
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:22.319
I like that.
00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:22.720
Yeah.
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:31.440
They want to feel um relaxed in their body, they want to have a calm nervous system.
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:37.119
And yeah, they want to have some meaning as well.
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:40.000
And it doesn't have to come from business.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:51.680
In fact, a lot of meaning comes from community, from giving away things or giving like your time and your energy and your expertise for free, right?
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:57.519
And just doing business though does not cure any of that.
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:08.240
So that's what kind of creates this reversion to the mean, slash, you know, people realizing or or going into depressions and slumps after they have the FE money.
00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:12.720
Um because it was really something else that they were after.
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:19.359
So what have you noticed about the happiest CEOs and founders?
00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:33.039
The happiest CEOs and founders, I'd say most, first of all, I'd say the vast majority of them, I would not say are very are are in the very happy class.
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:46.799
Um the score, the average score of high performing CEOs, and by high performing, I would say they're doing at least 10 million in revenue or more, and their business is valued at at least 50 million or more.
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:55.839
Um, I would say is between, say, a five out of 10 and a seven and a half out of ten would be like the mean.
00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:56.559
Okay.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:59.039
I don't think that's a great score.
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:03.359
What's that compared to for like an average employee at the company, for example?
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:04.720
Do you have that data?
00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:06.480
I don't have that data.
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:09.680
Um, and I'd be hesitant to speculate because I just don't know.
00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:11.119
Right, yeah.
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:17.119
But I could talk about why they're less happy.
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:33.839
Um, and the cited reasons include typically um triggers as it relates to work, um, fear, scarcity, um, and just being chronically triggered by work problems.
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:43.359
And the ones who have higher scores are typically less exposed to those day-to-day issues.
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:55.920
So um I I believe Richard Branson, if if surveyed over the course of his career, would typically score in the eight or nine plus range.
00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:10.880
Um, yes, he has a lot of business problems and triggers that come up, but he's a bit less exposed because he prides himself on partnering with great CEOs for every underlying company inversion group.
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:11.359
Okay.
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:12.240
Right.
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:18.880
And so I studied that, and that made me more excited about that model of building business.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:25.440
Um, some people like to operate and be CEO, but I'm personally not one of them.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:42.480
Um, I won't say I'll never do that again because there's there's a chance I would, but I think it's more challenging to get to FU piece if you're directly CEO of a company, just given how the world works, unfortunately.
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:50.720
Yeah, so I find that fascinating that the people that are less involved are often closer to that to that piece.
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:56.240
It's like you're not the you're not the general that's in on the battlefield.
00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:03.519
You're kind of you're kind of removed a little bit, which is contrary to what I think a lot of us would think about, right?
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:07.119
But I'm actually fascinated by that finding.
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:11.440
Yeah, well let me give you uh let me give you um another way to think about it.
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:16.400
So so there's this everyone understands financial diversification, right?
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:21.359
Which is you have income sources and investments and very different things.
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:26.880
Well, you could also have fulfillment, happiness, and peace diversification as well, right?
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:29.200
Like if you have a family, right?
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:48.960
You have community, you have um your you have uh exercise and food and you know, your spiritual, you know, community, and you know, there are all these other things that bring joy and happiness to your life outside of business, you're less fragile when business is not going well.
00:27:49.200 --> 00:28:13.519
But if business is all you do, you know, like I talked to a uh a founder yesterday who built a billion-dollar company in Silicon Valley, and this person's on antidepressants, and this person um all they do is work all the time, and they don't work out every day.
00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:21.920
They like, you know, don't have a bunch of other um personal interests, they don't have diversification here.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:27.920
So so this person's happiness is too linked to business going up and down.
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:29.519
Right.
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:36.799
And hustle culture will tell you that that's fine because you need to be completely all in in every area.
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:41.440
Did you have those moments in your career where you were like no sleep?
00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:43.519
I find founders cannot sleep.
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:45.519
I know you recently posted about that.
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:48.400
But people's sleep that are building things is terrible.
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:49.519
That's one of the things.
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:56.400
Already a prerequisite kind of setting you up to uh fail that diversification test.
00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:00.480
Yeah, sleep is the most important thing to prioritize.
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:05.200
And so my recommendation is watch podcasts about sleep.
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:06.640
Um, there are a lot of them.
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:08.799
Brian Johnson talks about sleep a lot.
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:12.000
The sleep doctor is amazing.
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:15.920
Um and like really optimize.
00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:20.960
Like I have, I love my ape sleep, you know, which optimizes my temperature.
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:27.359
And I, you know, I take glycine as a supplement before I go to sleep.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:28.880
That helps me a lot.
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:33.519
Um, no phone or looking at a device for at least an hour before bedtime.
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:34.960
Like, just do the basics.
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:36.640
Most people don't do the basics.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:45.920
Make sure you allocate nine hours for sleep because you know you're only gonna get eight hours of sleep because of like, you know, just waking up in the middle of the night or whatever.
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:49.359
You really blot, you need to blot off nine hours, not eight hours.
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:52.640
That's that's the biggest change I made the past few years.
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:54.079
That's made the biggest difference.
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:56.079
If you want eight hours of sleep.
00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:00.720
Um, and then in the morning, same thing, you don't go to work right away.
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:02.160
Like, block off an hour.
00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:15.279
I mean, this morning, I had an hour and a half to just walk my dog, get you know, a latte, and hang out and not do anything useful.
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:19.039
And Jeff Bezos, he talks about doing that too.
00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:24.960
Um, and you know, you'll do better work, you're gonna be a lot more focused.
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:33.759
And um hustle culture is talked about a lot in Silicon Valley, especially right now.
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:38.480
And this this unicorn founder I was referring to.
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:53.039
Um, this person um told me how they have been um working way too hard, like 996, 9 a.m.
00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:53.519
to 9 p.m.
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:56.000
six days a week, totally burned out.
00:30:56.319 --> 00:31:03.680
And it actually led to the business not performing better over the past 18 month period.
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:24.160
It was net net worse for the business um because it led them to taking shortcuts, taking on customers who turned out and um and also because of the burnout, the team is not working as effectively and not able to sustain a high pace now.
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:40.880
So I think we're gonna see more stories of this, but these downers in hustle culture are not going to write about it or admit to it publicly because think about it, if they wrote about that and blogged about it, then they wouldn't get more funding.
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:42.160
Hmm.
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:44.160
Yeah, so they're stuck they're stuck.
00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:52.400
We're incentivized to put on an act of being alright where inside we might not be feeling like that.
00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:53.680
Correct.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:03.359
And and um, so so Silicon Valley rewards the the act, punishes you if you are like, I'm into work-life balance.
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:05.519
So you can't use the word like work-life balance.
00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:08.160
You have to just say I work really hard all the time, right?
00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:13.200
Because that correlates more strongly with getting funded, being successful.
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:13.680
Right.
00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:21.039
And so we have this echo chamber where then the truth of what's actually going on doesn't become pub public information.
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:29.759
And the only way to understand what's actually happening is to have private one-on-one conversations with genuine friends.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:30.640
Yeah.
00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:38.559
You know, yeah, I mean, I could talk about it because I'm not a CEO of a company and I don't really care what anyone thinks, you know?
00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:39.759
But it has annoyed.
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:41.039
So I talk about this all the time.
00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:42.160
Yeah.
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:43.039
No, no.
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:50.720
When I was uh funded CEO, I I was definitely a lot more um close to the chest on on matters like this.
00:32:50.960 --> 00:33:19.039
Um yeah, part of part of why I like talking to people like you is because I can share more openly and not care about, you know, the fact that like, you know, if being more honest, you know, helps people, then that is the best thing to do versus like trying to optimize for lying about saying, I mean, look, I did work 996 for about three months just to try it out.
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:26.319
And and then I realized that it wasn't sustainable and I shouldn't do 996 anymore.
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:35.039
So what I'm doing right now is probably doing 830, 830, uh, 730, right?
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:35.920
So what is that?
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:39.599
That's like that's like 985.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:49.759
So yeah, five days, and then and then on the weekend, like, yeah, I'm watching AI YouTube videos and I'm like working on like coding stuff, but that's not really work in my mind.
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:51.119
That's like I'm tinkering.
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:57.440
You're still working much more than the normal person, but it's a part of the game and you enjoy it.
00:33:57.759 --> 00:33:59.039
Yeah, I enjoy that part.
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:07.519
That's not but I don't put that in the work bucket, and so like when you say you're working 12 hours a day, what classifies as work?
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:11.440
Like, like by me talking to you, is this work or is this not work?
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:13.440
Like, I'm not really clear.
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:14.800
Um Right.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:16.239
Yeah, that's a good question.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:17.840
Do you consider this work?
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:35.280
Um, I would say it gets half credit because there's value in me talking with you because talking with you, you know, might lead to you and I finding other people who lead to some business thing happening, right?
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:35.599
Right.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:40.800
And I have to like plant these seeds not knowing what's going to happen.
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:44.800
So that could be and that could be anyone, which is exciting.
00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:53.440
Like the example I gave you earlier, which is if I'm helping an investor whose son or daughter is trying to start a startup, right?
00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:55.679
And they're in high school, like, is that work?
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.199
Like, maybe, maybe not, but then it leads to work, right?
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:14.400
So so you know, you do it anyway, and um, and so you don't basically doing strict accounting on how hard you're working is it's it's it's really a foolish thing, I in my opinion.
00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:18.159
Like it doesn't really, it doesn't really matter.
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:22.960
Um I think that most people do it so that they can compare and say that they're working that hard.
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:27.679
I don't think that most people posting that they're working 996 are actually doing it.
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:44.159
Maybe they are, but or even if they are, they're definitely I don't think they're really enjoying it, but part of the, at least from what I've found talking to people, part of the joy in it is simply the fact that they get to post about it and tell people that they're doing it.
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:46.639
Yeah, exactly.
00:35:47.440 --> 00:36:06.079
Um and and I think there's like a time and a place for working very intensely, like if you're just getting something off the ground, like if you're doing like paper intense work for a few months, because you you know what to do, you're clearly directed, and now it's about pure execution.
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:08.719
I can understand the justification.
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:22.800
But when your work becomes more relational, um, when it becomes more about ideas and creativity, having spaciousness is a prerequisite to having high performance.
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:27.599
So, you know, it it depends, is the answer.
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:30.000
Should I work crazy hours or not?
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:30.800
Right.
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:40.000
So I think the idea of having a clear focus that you're working towards is really interesting for you because, from my understanding, you're doing a lot of different things.
00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:41.679
You have a lot of different projects.
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:53.760
And in my life, something I've really needed to work on, and I still am working on, that is going to move the needle so much more is cutting out and saying no to the things that I don't need to be focusing on, right?
00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:58.880
And understanding that I don't need to be throwing all my eggs in all these different baskets.
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:09.440
Obviously, diversification in terms of I need to be working out, I need to be eating well, I need to be sleeping, but in terms of work and school, I can't have multiple businesses.
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:14.159
I'd rather have one business doing well than many businesses not doing as well.
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:23.039
For you, I think you're at a point where you can have many businesses doing well, but what are you spending, what are you focusing on, I guess?
00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:27.840
Is your focus purely the human aspect of it and other people do the execution?
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:33.519
Do you find that it's difficult because you have to balance so many focuses?
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:36.320
Yeah, it's a really good question.
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:44.880
And I think so I've surveyed a few people who have done this really well, including Richard Branson.
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:59.920
And the answer you'll hear from the Richard Bransons of the world who don't have one business that they're exclusively focused on is that they're not wired to do to build one business.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:18.800
It's not their core expertise to be super deep in one business, and that by having a meaningful role in multiple ventures, it gives them more ideas, it gives them more relationships, and um all that benefits their ecosystem.
00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:29.440
Um generally I find that people are gravitating towards just do one thing, go deep, be the operator or the Richard Branson route.
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:37.599
Um, and you kind of know, you know, if you just listen to your your your body and your intuition, like what feels better for you.
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:39.760
And for you, it's very clear for you.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:40.159
Yeah.
00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:41.039
And that's great.
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:41.280
Right.
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:48.800
And you just kind of have to go with what feels clearer to you and trying to fight against that and pick the other thing.
00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:52.159
It's just not not a recipe for success.
00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:53.039
Yeah.
00:38:53.280 --> 00:39:02.960
Well, I I think that uh that's so that's so well said, and everyone can benefit or the idea that you can benefit from having multiple ventures is so true.
00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:03.679
I've seen that.
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:06.079
It's even when they're so separate.
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:15.920
Like uh a climbing, rock climbing-based clothing brand and uh podcast on personal development, they're very different things, but they complement each other.
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:18.960
You can learn things, but not going upstream.
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:30.239
I that's one thing I've noticed interviewing people like yourself, where it's very effortless in a sense, what you guys are doing, where you're not battling upstream.
00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:39.679
You outsource the things that might feel like you're pushing too hard there, but in general, it feels like you're you're running downhill almost.
00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:55.039
I I don't know if you can if you've observed what I'm saying, because I I know that you definitely have uphill moments, but overall, I think it's a really high-value skill to be able to do things with the least effort possible.
00:39:56.320 --> 00:40:03.440
Yeah, actually, this is another survey I've run with my ultra-high performer friends who've built, you know, massive-sized businesses.
00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:13.679
And I would say the the general consensus I've heard is that 50% of their time still feels like running uphill.
00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:19.920
It takes a lot of effort, it's not that fun, and it's hard to outsource, it's hard to delegate.
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:23.679
50%, yeah.
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:27.840
It's a lot, but that I'm telling you, this is from like very successful people.
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:28.719
I know.
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:47.760
Um no one I know is getting to the, you know, to like, oh, it's like 80% or 100%, unless you're like like a maybe like an executive coach or like uh, you know, something that you know is a bit more straightforward and less complex.
00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:48.880
Yeah.
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:56.159
And so yeah, don't don't trust what people say on podcasts too closely.
00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:03.280
Um, the truth and the reality is that people who are successful struggle a lot more than they they make it seem.
00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:16.719
And you know, a lot of these famous, you know, business people and you know, entrepreneurs on YouTube, they're people like, you know, I see doubt to have a conversation with to try to understand what's the truth, just for fun, you know.
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:23.199
And these are definitely people you know, and and so I I I I try to challenge them.
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:27.440
I'm like, hey, like, why don't you just be more authentic with like how hard it is?
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:29.679
And they're just too scared to do so.
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:30.400
They don't want to.
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:31.679
Yeah, well, they would lose it.
00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:34.880
They would lose it because I have you heard of Dr.
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:36.719
Ann Anne Laure LeConf?
00:41:37.119 --> 00:42:03.119
She wrote the book Tiny Experiments, and she she's a neuroscientist, and she talks a lot about uh she disagrees with purpose and the whole thing around finding your purpose because she talks about this disillusionment we all have where we believe someone else has found their purpose, but they only have put up an act that they found their purpose because they think other people have found their purpose, and we're incentivized to find our purpose.
00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:05.760
But everyone's like, oh, they found their purpose.
00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:20.559
I I have to have found my purpose when they didn't really, and it's this whole game, but we're incentivized to do so evolutionarily because if n because we want to be recognized as someone with purpose that has a role, right?
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:24.320
And we're all living up here in this like purpose world.
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:26.960
We have we have a purpose, we have a role.
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:30.320
When most of us want to be down here, we're like, I'm confused.
00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:31.599
I don't know either.
00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:36.000
Uh it's this illusory game we play with ourselves.
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:38.800
Yeah, you are right about that.
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:40.559
I'm gonna give you a funny example.
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:55.679
So I have one friend who's very, very uh successful um and publicly also um offers coaching and content and teaching on finding purpose.
00:42:56.000 --> 00:42:56.320
Okay.
00:42:56.719 --> 00:42:58.559
So this is a purpose expert.
00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:10.800
And and this purpose expert, you know, I helped this individual map out what I perceive their purpose is and what's lacking from their purpose.
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:15.679
And I put together this whole chart using um uh AI.
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:21.440
And so I was helping, you know, this person on purpose, even though they teach purpose.
00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:30.559
And what this shows is that even the purpose experts are still evolving on their purpose, and it's not a destination you reach.
00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:48.159
It's like uh it's it's just something you're constantly, you know, striving to improve on and evolve and iterate on at all times, and that even for them, they need to learn from people on how to evolve on their purpose.
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:49.599
Yeah.
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:50.800
That's so true.
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:54.400
And yeah, it's even the purpose experts have this problem, Jack.
00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:54.880
Right.
00:43:55.039 --> 00:44:03.280
And it's it's scary in a way because so many people want what we want to believe as I Said we're incentivized to believe that these people have found their purpose.
00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:08.159
It's it's a great hope to have that people really can reach that, right?
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:14.159
It's it's like thinking of enlightenment as a destination rather than a spectrum.
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:31.519
It's so hopeful to think, oh, if I if I do this thing, I can reach this state of pure bliss, or to think of inner peace as some destination rather than again a spectrum, like, oh, if I meditate every day, I'm gonna feel great always.
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:41.039
And we have this addiction to trying to find this impenetrable state of almost perfection that we never will find.
00:44:41.119 --> 00:44:49.119
But when people can architect some image of themselves that makes it seem like that, we want to believe it.
00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:51.840
Even if they don't believe it themselves.
00:44:52.559 --> 00:45:04.559
Wow, that is probably one of the most profound things I've I've heard in really all these podcasts and interviews I've done.
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:07.199
That that's just like so incredible, Jack.
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:09.119
I agree with that completely.
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:13.280
And wow, I mean that that's a true mic draw up what you just said.
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:14.960
Thank you.
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:15.360
Yeah.
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:17.280
Have you read The Alchemist?
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:23.280
I read elements of uh parts of uh The Alchemist, but I've not gone through the whole book.
00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:24.079
Really?
00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:24.559
Okay.
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:32.079
That one, I mean, I'd say that that's where I read it so many times, that's where I get a lot of the things that I end up saying to people.
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:36.159
I I found an what were you gonna say?
00:45:36.320 --> 00:45:36.960
Sorry.
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:41.920
I mean it it's also challenging to like know these things on one hand, right?
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:47.599
Intellectually, and then it's another thing to actually feel it and to embody it.
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:57.760
And the reason I say that is just because, you know, there are you know um like stoicism is a concept I really am into.
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:09.519
I read a bunch of stoicism-related books, I've you know, watched a ton of the content on Daily Stoic and all these, you know, podcasts um and YouTube people who've talked about stoicism.
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:31.679
Um yet I think the way stoicism is taught is actually not ideal because it tries to to intellectually convince you to be stoic, but it doesn't help you like actually feel stoic by like teaching you how to somatically um um be uh at peace.
00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:33.519
And and that's a whole nother content.
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:38.960
We could do another podcast on that, but um it's it's hard to actually integrate this content.
00:46:39.360 --> 00:47:00.719
Yeah, I mean it's something I'm actually uh really passionate about that idea because I find that so many people nowadays, all their content is just to leave someone with like a five-second feeling of, oh, I feel a little bit better now, just so that they come back later, but there's not really transformation happening.
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:30.559
And I I recognize that, and you you might disagree, but I think that there used to be transformation in the personal development space with people like Bob Proctor and Earl Nightingale and Jim Rohn, and I've been connecting with people in that space recently a lot, like uh Blaine Bartlett and Jim Britt and like their friends with Brian Tracy, all these names of people, but they're so they're old.
00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:39.599
And I'm scared that that information is going to be gone with this new wave of information now.
00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:42.000
So I'm really looking for a way.
00:47:42.079 --> 00:47:55.280
I'm I'm hopping on a call with a few of them later this week to figure out a way to continue that information into the into the new age because I do agree with you where it's really, really hard to get people to make that somatic change.
00:47:55.360 --> 00:48:06.639
We're teaching concepts that need to be integrated into our life intellectually and not really providing uh a medium for people to create that change.
00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:18.719
And I think it almost creates more frustration because the bigger the gap is between what we know and what we're doing and what we think we're capable of and what we see in our life, the more frustration and suffering we create.
00:48:20.079 --> 00:48:22.880
Yeah, that's that's a really great observation.
00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:25.840
What's your theory on why that is?
00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:27.519
Um, everything you just said.
00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:35.519
Why why is it such that that content is, you know, being less um revealed to the public?
00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:37.679
I think it's I think it's boring.
00:48:37.920 --> 00:48:43.440
And I also think that yeah, I think it's boring and it's not owned.
00:48:43.599 --> 00:48:48.400
A lot of those people, they would always credit others for the information.
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:53.199
And nowadays we really look to people to have all the answers themselves.
00:48:53.440 --> 00:48:57.679
Whereas Bob Proctor in an interview, he would always say, like, oh, this isn't me.
00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:59.840
I learned this from XYZ.
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:11.039
And it's that humility that we can say that we look up to it, but we might not really be as attracted to it on a social media platform.
00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:12.719
What do you think about that?
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:16.800
Wow, I I think you're spot on correct with that.
00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:26.639
What that makes me think about is I think a lot of people who set up YouTube channels are incented to inflate their ego.
00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:41.039
And so they're less predisposed to wanting to, you know, give credit to other people and do long, ultra long form, boring content because on YouTube, it's like TikTok or Instagram, right?
00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:43.679
People want a dopamine release.
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:48.159
They want to fix your problem immediately type of uh relief.
00:49:48.480 --> 00:49:48.880
Yeah.
00:49:49.199 --> 00:50:01.119
Um and doing hard work over a long stretch of time, um, developing healthy habits that's not really clickbeat content.
00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:08.400
You know, the the tried and tested true methods um doing X, Y, or C, it's it's like you have to just do work.
00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:12.960
Like you actually have to just show up at the gym every day and do the same thing over and over and over again.
00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:15.360
It's like not, it's not compelling.
00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:16.639
There's no clickbeat.
00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:21.360
Yeah, there's no shortcuts, and it's it's annoying because we always want there to be one.
00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:22.159
Yeah.
00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:23.840
Exactly.
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:30.000
But I think what's what we're gonna see happen, um, and I gotta run here in a minute, Jack, but I really have enjoyed this.
00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:38.079
I think that we're we had that all these great people putting out great content, boring content.
00:50:38.239 --> 00:51:17.760
Now we're seeing a lot of clickbeat and a lot of like this diff in quality, and um, you know, but I think we're gonna see a reversion back to the tried, true, classic wisdom, because I think people are going to realize that they're not getting the solution they want, and they want something more meaningful, they want something deeper, they don't want, you know, this bunch of AI slop now all over the internet, a bunch of, you know, yeah, regurgitated content that like just feels repeated and it doesn't feel actually that interesting and unique and satisfying.
00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:21.119
And I think people are gonna start turning back to that in the next year or two.
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:23.360
So I'm I'm actually not as worried.
00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:26.239
Um I'm very optimistic about that future, Jack.
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:27.840
I love to hear that.
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:29.599
Well, Jess, this has been incredible.
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:31.840
Thank you so much for taking the time.
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:34.960
Uh, I've loved getting to know you and talk to you.
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:36.960
Likewise, thank you, Jack.
00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:39.760
Let's uh we gotta hang in person at some point, all right?
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:41.039
I would love that.
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:46.800
Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of the Grateful Podcast and staying until the end.
00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:47.920
You're committed.
00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:49.760
I respect that about you.
00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:58.079
If this conversation meant something to you, subscribe to the show and share it with just one person who could benefit from hearing this today.
00:51:58.719 --> 00:51:59.440
Thank you so much.
00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:01.599
Stay grateful, stay hungry.
00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:02.800
I'm Jack Wagner.
00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:04.719
This has been the Grateful Podcast.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.759
Today's guest built her first six-figure company at 11 years old, and now in her 30s, she's company is collectively valued at over$1 billion.
00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:14.080
What she told me on the show today, she says most founders at her level are too scared to say publicly.
00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:16.879
Jess Ma, welcome to the Grateful Podcast.
00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:18.320
Thank you so much for being here.
00:00:18.719 --> 00:00:25.760
Great to be here, great to chat, and uh awesome that you're getting to do this from your dorm room, by the way.
00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:28.559
Yes, it's pretty cool, it's authentic.
00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:31.359
I know you like you talk a lot about authenticity.
00:00:31.519 --> 00:00:46.479
I think I I'm at a point where soon it'll be much more professional setups, but there's something cool about learning with somebody from their home and just being with them as they ask people questions.
00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:51.600
I think that contributes to the overall authenticity of the conversation.
00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:53.439
Yeah, I like that a lot.
00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:54.479
I agree with that.
00:00:54.719 --> 00:01:01.840
Um, and generally speaking, I think a lot of the content out there is not like the real content.
00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:07.519
And we talked a little bit about this beforehand because um people on the internet are weird, right?
00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:14.159
And so unfortunately, like the best secrets you're never gonna like hear about on YouTube.
00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:16.319
Um, but that's okay.
00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:30.079
That just means that there's still gonna be value in getting to like actually know people one-on-one, like have lunch meetings, have coffee meetings, you know, fly somewhere and take someone you want to meet out for dinner and then ask them the real follow-up questions.
00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:42.239
And those secrets you're not gonna be able to find with like going to Chat GPT and saying, hey, tell me all of you know Jess Ma's best business secrets, you know, like it's just not there.
00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:48.239
And um, I think that's kind of beautiful because we we're getting a little lazy in the age of AI.
00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:52.239
We think AI will give us everything that we want and everything that we need.
00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:53.680
That's just simply not true.
00:01:53.760 --> 00:02:04.560
And now, more than more so than ever, you know, all it, you know, it it it's uh it's making these in-person relationships and genuine connections more precious.
00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:07.040
So um I think that's cool.
00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:15.280
Yeah, I heard you talk about on a previous podcast how you get all of your ideas from actually talking to people.
00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:21.840
And you'll even pay to talk to experts about things so you can learn more and solve a problem that way.
00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:36.240
So beyond just the idea of connection, you have to connect in order to be able to solve a problem because you can't find a problem that people need help with if you're not connecting with them.
00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:49.520
So why why do you think so many people are opting just for the for for the Chat GPT beyond just the fact that it's the easy type when all you have to do is talk to people to figure out what they really want?
00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:55.680
I think there's a bit of an intimidation factor as well when it comes to meeting people live.
00:02:55.840 --> 00:03:04.560
I mean, for background, what I do for a living is I meet really cool people, I brainstorm business opportunities with them.
00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:08.400
And sometimes it's their idea, sometimes it's my idea.
00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:11.919
And then if you think it's cool, then we go build it.
00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:25.120
In fact, right before you and I hopped on this call, I was on a call with someone who um knows a ton of YouTube creators with millions and millions of followers.
00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:29.840
And he happens to be, you know, now at least a friend of mine.
00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:36.639
And we just do like half an hour, hour and a half long brainstorms on business ideas.
00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:39.439
And I think we found one that we're stoked about.
00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:43.759
And he came to me, he's like, hey, Jess, can we sit down?
00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:46.560
I've got like three ideas I want to pitch you.
00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:54.000
And I told him that I thought all of them sucked, but one of them, if it shifted a certain way, I think could be a really great idea.
00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:55.280
And so we jammed on that.
00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:05.120
It took us about five hours of brainstorming, by the way, to get that into a place where I'm like, wow, this can mint like tens of millions of dollars a year with no investors.
00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:14.800
And that process, though, that patience required to take five hours with this guy, I don't think a lot of people have that patience.
00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:20.879
I think a lot of really busy people, they say, Oh, I'll give you half an hour of my time, or I'll give you an hour of my time.
00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:30.879
But to really get those golden nuggets, it's at that the five-hour mark, the 10-hour mark, where you get those those best insights and people don't want to wait that long.
00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:32.639
It's kind of like in sales outreach.
00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:46.639
If you listen to a lot of uh sales outreach experts, they say that if you cold email your customers, it's on the seventh or eighth cold outreach email before the other side replies, right?
00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:54.639
So if that's the case, people are giving up way too soon when they only send two or three cold emails to try to get in touch with someone, right?
00:04:55.759 --> 00:04:58.959
And uh same thing in in business ideation.
00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:02.399
It's the hour five to hour 10, 10 mark.
00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:05.439
So, what do you talk about for 10 hours?
00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:14.560
Because I think most people, yeah, they are they are having the quick meetings, and I see it all the time, especially which is a little bit contradictory to what you said.
00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:22.399
The most successful people I'm I'm seeing, they're like, oh, I'll give you 15 minutes of my time, or uh these these really tiny blocks.
00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:27.920
What do you talk about for the 10 hours, the five to 10 hours that gets you to that point?
00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:32.639
Because I think I could have a conversation with someone for 10 hours and talk about nothing, right?
00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:38.480
But you have to tailor it in a certain way in order to get the value that you're getting out of these conversations.
00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:42.399
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like a dance, right?
00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:56.639
I think, you know, this gives me this idea, Jack, that I think at one point maybe I should just record this process where I sit down with like different people and like we just do this for five hours straight and see what happens.
00:05:56.959 --> 00:06:00.319
Because that's the only way to really demonstrate this.
00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:08.480
But in a nutshell, I think it's just like brainstorming and like you know, riffing off each other, like, well, how what if we did this instead?
00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:11.839
Or like, hey, what if we tried, you know, this product offering?
00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:14.800
How would how do you think your customers would respond, right?
00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:24.720
Or, you know, so it's like asking a lot of questions, hearing a lot of answers, and then coming up with new follow-up questions and doing that, like that can easily be hours and hours and hours.
00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:35.680
Just because like I I have a lot of questions, like I want to understand, you know, um all the different ways we can make a real business out of something.
00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:42.079
So um, and then also it's it's using like Claude or Chat GBT in real time.
00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:46.240
Like, all right, hey, Chat GBT, like we have this idea, it still sucks.
00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:47.360
Here's why I think it sucks.
00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:58.399
I think the market might, you know, not be big enough, or I think this business model is not great, or here's our product vision, but it it doesn't solve the big enough problem, help give us more ideas to like tease out our brainstorming.
00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:03.759
So I use it as a sparring partner a lot for this in particular.
00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:08.480
Um and so that will then create another few hours of content.
00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:10.000
So yeah, you're not gonna run out of time.
00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:11.680
And also you're doing it in chunks, right?
00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:16.319
You're doing like say an hour, hour and a half, and then you have another hour and a half follow-up.
00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:20.000
And you know, so it's not like an hour chunk.
00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:20.560
Right.
00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:26.160
You have time to think on it in between and maybe contribute new ideas that came up in in that time.
00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:28.800
And it seems like you're always thinking of ideas.
00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:34.560
I mean, even right there in that answer, you said, oh, well, I have an idea, maybe I could record it, right?
00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.480
Your brain is idea focused, you're always doing that.
00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:43.120
You came up with an idea at 11, which is insane.
00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:46.399
And you had four employees at that age.
00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:58.720
I I can relate in some not crazy way, but I had four employees at the age of 17, and I don't know how you felt with that, but I I hid my age from my employees.
00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:00.800
I did not want them to know that I was 17.
00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:04.639
Maybe they're watching this now and like, oh my god, Jack, you were young.
00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:10.560
But I felt somewhat embarrassed, but I think I was it's because I was older at that point.
00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:12.800
Like, as an 11-year-old, there's nothing to hide.
00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:16.800
You you have to have the idea and have the utmost confidence in it.
00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:21.920
So is this just something that's been built into you from a very young age?
00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:33.440
Yeah, I mean, to be clear, like, you know, I had part-time folks when I was um uh in my teens building businesses, and they're just random people I met online, and I could just PayPal them money.
00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:35.519
So it wasn't like a high bar.
00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:40.799
And as long as someone gets paid, you know, they see see money in their PayPal account, they were happy to do some work.
00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:42.080
Right, yeah.
00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:42.799
Right.
00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:51.759
Um, but um yeah, I've always been into business creation really as the art form.
00:08:52.080 --> 00:09:10.399
I think a lot of people see business more in a like, we need to create a business to make a certain amount of money, and you know, and while that pressure certainly exists, um, I think it is more fun when it's treated as an art form.
00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:17.120
And, you know, a business doesn't have to be big for it to still be widely successful, right?
00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:26.320
Like if a business creates a new lifelong friendship for you, if a business like really changes the lives of a lot of its customers, that's like really successful.
00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:28.000
That's massive, you know?
00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:28.720
Yeah.
00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:31.600
So what is your what is your why behind business?
00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:38.159
Because you're still going, you're incredibly successful, you've had uh you've built an amazing career.
00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:50.559
And part of what is so interesting is you've you've built businesses in places where I would find boring, like in these niches that don't really uh you're like, what what are you talking about?
00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:51.840
That's a thing, right?
00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:58.720
So what what is it that drives you to to keep going and to keep continuing to build?
00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:19.840
Yeah, I mean, right now I've got a ton of new businesses that are being launched this year, and why I'm excited about it is because all of these co-founders who I'm partnering with on these businesses, they um, you know, they see this opportunity with AI.
00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:22.799
I'm able to help them bring that to life.
00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:29.679
And I'm seeing how these people are like so excited, and and that brings me a lot of joy.
00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:35.679
So a lot of this is just like helping make other people more successful, makes me really happy and seeing them win.
00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:55.279
Um and so I'm moving from having to be like the entrepreneur and the person who's like uh the person who runs that business, um, to like I'm actually behind the scenes, I'm like behind the curtain, and I really want them to be able to take off with it.
00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:59.279
And so, yeah, that's the common thread for me, Jack.
00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:05.279
Um and uh it's kind of like why do you know business coaches do what they do?
00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:05.840
You know what?
00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:09.840
They like to kind of see their clients grow, and and that's the same with me.
00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:15.600
I want to see my entrepreneurs grow and do cool things, and also, you know, these businesses like make impact very quickly.
00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:22.879
I mean, I mean, yeah, it's it's just you could bring these things to life within 30, 60 days, potentially.
00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:27.759
And so I think that we're in a very special time in that sense, Jack.
00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:38.799
So um, and now, you know, I get calls from like right after I talked to you, I've got a billionaire who uh reached out to me and said, Hey, like, I really want to bring X to life.
00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:42.720
I'm not gonna say what it is, um, but it's healthcare related.
00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:50.799
And he's got tens of millions of dollars he's put behind this idea already, but it's a total um total mess.
00:11:51.120 --> 00:12:01.919
And he needs help building out the management team and making it so it can actually, you know, be a standalone business that takes in smart money.
00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:04.639
And I'm like, yeah, I'll help you out with that, you know?
00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:06.879
So I just get these calls all the time, Jack.
00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:08.080
And I'm just trying to help people.
00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:12.320
And how how I get paid on it, like, I don't really know sometimes coming in.
00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:13.519
Um, and that's okay.
00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:18.720
At what point did people start to reach out to you and say, hey, Jess, I have this idea.
00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:23.519
I want your help in building this, I want your help in creating something awesome.
00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:26.000
Because I know it hasn't always been that way.
00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:42.480
Yeah, I think I got more calls after I started doing a lot of just like giving back to the entrepreneur community and the investor community with no expectation of anything back.
00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:50.399
So just like doing favors, like showing up and um doing, you know, free advice calls for people.
00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:56.320
And people are like, oh yeah, would you like help talk to my son about their, you know, business idea?
00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:00.399
Like things like that, where you you know there's no business that's gonna come from that.
00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:05.840
But you show up and you're like, you know what, I'm gonna help you and your son out because I care about you and because why not?
00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:09.840
And then and then three months later, that person's like, you know what?
00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:16.240
Like one of my business partners or someone I'm doing a deal with is this big shot who needs your help.
00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:17.519
Would you talk to them?
00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:20.000
And then that then leads to a deal, you see?
00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:27.440
So all of those chances you have to help someone out, even if it doesn't seem like it's gonna be relevant, it leads to stuff.
00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:28.320
Yeah, yeah.
00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:43.120
And one of the things that's the most clear that through lines your entire story, and I think is so cool, is that you have always been a people first person, and that's how you're getting your success, right?
00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:45.279
And people are really scared.
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:47.919
I hear a lot of fear in the people I talk to.
00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:50.159
Like, what is AI going to replace?
00:13:50.399 --> 00:14:06.639
And the truth is, I think the most successful people are always people first, always relationship first, where you're wanting to build genuine connection, wanting to serve first, and business comes as a byproduct of that service.
00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:09.039
Yes, that's correct.
00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:14.480
Yeah, I mean, that's why I'm not worried about having to do like a lot of outreach.
00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:18.320
I don't do any outreach to like look for opportunities.
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:20.080
Like I already have too many.
00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:25.759
I have a whole like list in my head of dozens of these, you know, opportunities.
00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:28.799
And if anything, the question is how do I narrow that down?
00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:34.159
Um, so I don't I don't have any um scarcity would be the word.
00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:36.320
I don't feel that scarcity.
00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:45.120
And it's also just easier to to live and operate this way where I'm not worried about like where the next thing will come from.
00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:49.679
Um and yeah, I think I just magnetize it.
00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:53.360
So it's it's uh it sounds like not very scientific.
00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:59.360
And I think a lot of people when they look for content, they're trying to figure out like what is like the trick.
00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:01.360
It's like there's no real trick.
00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:12.720
It's like just over a long stretch of time, do a lot of things for free, offer a lot of favors, help people out, and then like people think about you.
00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:16.960
You're not willing to do more than you're being paid for, you'll never be paid for more than you're doing.
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:24.240
And I think that's one of my favorite quotes I tell people when they talk about that stuff, because I mean you've you've lived that.
00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:45.600
I think where I'm really curious, and when I showed some of my friends who are building things, your profile and what you're doing, what they were super curious about as well is with these ideas that so many people are talking about these days, whether these niche and specific, maybe ideas that have nothing related to what you're interested in, right?
00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:52.639
Like, I don't know why chiropractors always come up when people are talking about stuff, but like vertical systems for chiropractors.
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:57.840
How do you go about finding these obscure things?
00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:04.240
And then once you've got that, how do you keep the motivation going through that?
00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:10.000
Because I know people that have started things and like I just have no emotional connection to what I'm doing.
00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:16.879
Where do you create that emotional connection and these things that don't have anything that's related to your life so far?
00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:18.879
Yes, great question.
00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:28.000
Um, it's from these people who um call me saying they need support, and they made money in this obscure area.
00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:28.559
Okay.
00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:36.480
So they say, hey, I have something I'm working on in this obscure area or something I want to work on in this obscure area.
00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:37.679
Can you help me?
00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:42.080
And so then I can come in and and help offer support.
00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:47.440
Um, but it's usually their idea and their domain expertise, not mine.
00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:48.720
That's the key.
00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:49.360
Okay.
00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:54.720
And um yeah, I I I don't come up with those myself.
00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:59.840
I don't try to brainstorm with Chat GPT, like that's that's not the way to do it.
00:16:59.919 --> 00:17:07.039
You have to find someone who's like just done that for 20 years, and that's like what they obsess about, um, and partner with them.
00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:07.680
Yeah.
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:08.880
So I don't do anything.
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:22.079
I used to try to do stuff on my own, and those things um would not be as successful as the projects where I'm teaming up with someone who's already like been successful in a esoteric area.
00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:23.440
Interesting.
00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:27.599
So for someone that's looking to create something like that, right?
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:32.079
And they I think a lot of young people they don't really have expertise in anything.
00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:34.079
So they would need to find somebody.
00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:36.799
How do you recommend they go about that process?
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:49.039
Yeah, if you're less experienced and you're trying to meet people in esoteric areas, I mean, A, it's from a lot of conferences, right?
00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:52.559
Like I'm on the road traveling all the time, meeting random people.
00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:54.240
So you kind of have to be open to that.
00:17:54.400 --> 00:18:02.720
I go to a lot of entrepreneur dinners and I meet a lot of great people I'm collaborating with just from sitting next to them randomly at these events.
00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:07.680
Um, and then also I host my own events um several a year.
00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:13.440
Um, I just had one in Park City um last weekend that was widely successful.
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:20.319
And, you know, have a few people where I'm looking at doing opportunities with some of them because of this retreat.
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:32.799
And um, so yeah, I'll probably do four or five of those three or four day long retreats per year because it's such a great way for me to meet cool people.
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.680
Um, and you could start that anytime.
00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:48.240
I mean, when I was in college um at UC Berkeley studying computer science, um I would invite speakers to chat with the student group, and then I would just become friends with the speaker.
00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:52.160
Yeah, you know, and I threw a conference, right?
00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:57.599
I started TED X Berkeley, like the TED Talks, but at UC Berkeley.
00:18:57.759 --> 00:18:58.079
Yeah.
00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:01.440
And, you know, all the speakers became friends of mine.
00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:05.519
And um, and then I hosted two hackathons.
00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:11.599
Um, so like you just create an excuse to bring people, and you don't need any credentials to do that.
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.319
So that's how I got the idea to like bring people together.
00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:17.519
And when I call people, I say, please show up, they do.
00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:23.759
And if they don't show up to the first thing, I've got like four other options for them to show up to something, and they're different, right?
00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:27.680
Like I have one thing that's called AI sleep away camp.
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:28.400
Okay.
00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:32.960
It's literally a multi-day weekend trip for AI nerds.
00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:33.440
Yeah.
00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:45.599
So I'm bringing, you know, like amazingly brilliant AI nerds, um, mostly in San Francisco, to just like hang out and work on stuff for a weekend, right?
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:52.720
And uh yeah, so um it's stuff like that where I'm meeting cool people.
00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:57.920
I'm running this podcast, I'm running a business, and I'm also a full-time neuroscience student.
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:03.759
Sometimes, no matter how grateful and ambitious I am, my brain just doesn't want to keep up.
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:16.000
And I know that you know the feeling of having all these things you value so much that you just don't feel like you have the time or the focus to get done, and that's exactly why I take Magic Mind every single morning.
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:24.079
It's a mental performance shot, it's got the adaptogens, the nootropics, and the time-released caffeine so that you don't get the jitters or the 3 p.m.
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:30.000
crash, but you get all the energy, all the clarity, and all the focus to accomplish your goals.
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:34.000
And I've been taking it every single morning because of those exact things.
00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:41.119
You guys know that I would never promote a brand that I didn't fully trust would get you the results that you're looking for.
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:56.880
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00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:59.200
Go try it and let me know what you think.
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:01.839
Let's get back to this awesome episode.
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:21.359
You have been on magazine covers, you've built companies worth hundreds of millions of dollars, and you've said publicly that you still feel like you're not doing enough, and that you feel like a lot of your colleagues that are in the same scenario aren't necessarily open about that feeling.
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:33.440
What does it feel like when you have everything that you've been told is supposed to make you happy, but you don't always feel that reflected on the inside?
00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:35.920
Yeah, that's a really good question.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:46.240
I think that most entrepreneurs they think they want FU money, right?
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:53.119
And the the phrase FU money basically means you have enough money to do whatever you want and never need to work again.
00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:53.759
Okay.
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:59.759
And I've concluded that everyone who says that and then obtains that.
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:07.759
Still tries to get more and they're still not happy or as happy as they know they're capable of being.
00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:16.000
And I know this because I've been in CEO groups and circles where people sell their companies and make bajillions of dollars.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:21.519
And we ask them, How happy are you on a one to ten scale today?
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:34.319
And the the day or a month after they have the FE money, they typically say they're a nine out of ten, sometimes a 10 out of 10 for that month.
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:34.880
Okay.
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:41.039
And then the month after that, their score drops to either an eight or a seven.
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:47.119
And then oftentimes it just lingers at whatever their prior baseline was.
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:51.279
Because we track the scores over exactly.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:53.920
It just reverts back to the mean.
00:22:54.079 --> 00:23:02.400
And we know this because we have actual data, and because I've been tracking this data, you know, on spreadsheets for over a decade talking to these CEOs.
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:02.960
Okay.
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:06.720
And so I saw this happen so many times.
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.960
I realize now people want something different, you know.
00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:20.000
They want, and a lot of the time, um, it's not for everyone, you know, some people just are addicted to the adrenaline rush, but a lot of people want FUPs.
00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:21.359
Okay.
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:22.319
I like that.
00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:22.720
Yeah.
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:31.440
They want to feel um relaxed in their body, they want to have a calm nervous system.
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:37.119
And yeah, they want to have some meaning as well.
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:40.000
And it doesn't have to come from business.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:51.680
In fact, a lot of meaning comes from community, from giving away things or giving like your time and your energy and your expertise for free, right?
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:57.519
And just doing business though does not cure any of that.
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:08.240
So that's what kind of creates this reversion to the mean, slash, you know, people realizing or or going into depressions and slumps after they have the FE money.
00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:12.720
Um because it was really something else that they were after.
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:19.359
So what have you noticed about the happiest CEOs and founders?
00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:33.039
The happiest CEOs and founders, I'd say most, first of all, I'd say the vast majority of them, I would not say are very are are in the very happy class.
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:46.799
Um the score, the average score of high performing CEOs, and by high performing, I would say they're doing at least 10 million in revenue or more, and their business is valued at at least 50 million or more.
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:55.839
Um, I would say is between, say, a five out of 10 and a seven and a half out of ten would be like the mean.
00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:56.559
Okay.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:59.039
I don't think that's a great score.
00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:03.359
What's that compared to for like an average employee at the company, for example?
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:04.720
Do you have that data?
00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:06.480
I don't have that data.
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:09.680
Um, and I'd be hesitant to speculate because I just don't know.
00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:11.119
Right, yeah.
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:17.119
But I could talk about why they're less happy.
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:33.839
Um, and the cited reasons include typically um triggers as it relates to work, um, fear, scarcity, um, and just being chronically triggered by work problems.
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:43.359
And the ones who have higher scores are typically less exposed to those day-to-day issues.
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:55.920
So um I I believe Richard Branson, if if surveyed over the course of his career, would typically score in the eight or nine plus range.
00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:10.880
Um, yes, he has a lot of business problems and triggers that come up, but he's a bit less exposed because he prides himself on partnering with great CEOs for every underlying company inversion group.
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:11.359
Okay.
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:12.240
Right.
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:18.880
And so I studied that, and that made me more excited about that model of building business.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:25.440
Um, some people like to operate and be CEO, but I'm personally not one of them.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:42.480
Um, I won't say I'll never do that again because there's there's a chance I would, but I think it's more challenging to get to FU piece if you're directly CEO of a company, just given how the world works, unfortunately.
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:50.720
Yeah, so I find that fascinating that the people that are less involved are often closer to that to that piece.
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:56.240
It's like you're not the you're not the general that's in on the battlefield.
00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:03.519
You're kind of you're kind of removed a little bit, which is contrary to what I think a lot of us would think about, right?
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:07.119
But I'm actually fascinated by that finding.
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:11.440
Yeah, well let me give you uh let me give you um another way to think about it.
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:16.400
So so there's this everyone understands financial diversification, right?
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:21.359
Which is you have income sources and investments and very different things.
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:26.880
Well, you could also have fulfillment, happiness, and peace diversification as well, right?
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:29.200
Like if you have a family, right?
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:48.960
You have community, you have um your you have uh exercise and food and you know, your spiritual, you know, community, and you know, there are all these other things that bring joy and happiness to your life outside of business, you're less fragile when business is not going well.
00:27:49.200 --> 00:28:13.519
But if business is all you do, you know, like I talked to a uh a founder yesterday who built a billion-dollar company in Silicon Valley, and this person's on antidepressants, and this person um all they do is work all the time, and they don't work out every day.
00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:21.920
They like, you know, don't have a bunch of other um personal interests, they don't have diversification here.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:27.920
So so this person's happiness is too linked to business going up and down.
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:29.519
Right.
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:36.799
And hustle culture will tell you that that's fine because you need to be completely all in in every area.
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:41.440
Did you have those moments in your career where you were like no sleep?
00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:43.519
I find founders cannot sleep.
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:45.519
I know you recently posted about that.
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:48.400
But people's sleep that are building things is terrible.
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:49.519
That's one of the things.
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:56.400
Already a prerequisite kind of setting you up to uh fail that diversification test.
00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:00.480
Yeah, sleep is the most important thing to prioritize.
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:05.200
And so my recommendation is watch podcasts about sleep.
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:06.640
Um, there are a lot of them.
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:08.799
Brian Johnson talks about sleep a lot.
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:12.000
The sleep doctor is amazing.
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:15.920
Um and like really optimize.
00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:20.960
Like I have, I love my ape sleep, you know, which optimizes my temperature.
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:27.359
And I, you know, I take glycine as a supplement before I go to sleep.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:28.880
That helps me a lot.
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:33.519
Um, no phone or looking at a device for at least an hour before bedtime.
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:34.960
Like, just do the basics.
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:36.640
Most people don't do the basics.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:45.920
Make sure you allocate nine hours for sleep because you know you're only gonna get eight hours of sleep because of like, you know, just waking up in the middle of the night or whatever.
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:49.359
You really blot, you need to blot off nine hours, not eight hours.
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:52.640
That's that's the biggest change I made the past few years.
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:54.079
That's made the biggest difference.
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:56.079
If you want eight hours of sleep.
00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:00.720
Um, and then in the morning, same thing, you don't go to work right away.
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:02.160
Like, block off an hour.
00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:15.279
I mean, this morning, I had an hour and a half to just walk my dog, get you know, a latte, and hang out and not do anything useful.
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:19.039
And Jeff Bezos, he talks about doing that too.
00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:24.960
Um, and you know, you'll do better work, you're gonna be a lot more focused.
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:33.759
And um hustle culture is talked about a lot in Silicon Valley, especially right now.
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:38.480
And this this unicorn founder I was referring to.
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:53.039
Um, this person um told me how they have been um working way too hard, like 996, 9 a.m.
00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:53.519
to 9 p.m.
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:56.000
six days a week, totally burned out.
00:30:56.319 --> 00:31:03.680
And it actually led to the business not performing better over the past 18 month period.
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:24.160
It was net net worse for the business um because it led them to taking shortcuts, taking on customers who turned out and um and also because of the burnout, the team is not working as effectively and not able to sustain a high pace now.
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:40.880
So I think we're gonna see more stories of this, but these downers in hustle culture are not going to write about it or admit to it publicly because think about it, if they wrote about that and blogged about it, then they wouldn't get more funding.
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:42.160
Hmm.
00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:44.160
Yeah, so they're stuck they're stuck.
00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:52.400
We're incentivized to put on an act of being alright where inside we might not be feeling like that.
00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:53.680
Correct.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:03.359
And and um, so so Silicon Valley rewards the the act, punishes you if you are like, I'm into work-life balance.
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:05.519
So you can't use the word like work-life balance.
00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:08.160
You have to just say I work really hard all the time, right?
00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:13.200
Because that correlates more strongly with getting funded, being successful.
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:13.680
Right.
00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:21.039
And so we have this echo chamber where then the truth of what's actually going on doesn't become pub public information.
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:29.759
And the only way to understand what's actually happening is to have private one-on-one conversations with genuine friends.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:30.640
Yeah.
00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:38.559
You know, yeah, I mean, I could talk about it because I'm not a CEO of a company and I don't really care what anyone thinks, you know?
00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:39.759
But it has annoyed.
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:41.039
So I talk about this all the time.
00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:42.160
Yeah.
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:43.039
No, no.
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:50.720
When I was uh funded CEO, I I was definitely a lot more um close to the chest on on matters like this.
00:32:50.960 --> 00:33:19.039
Um yeah, part of part of why I like talking to people like you is because I can share more openly and not care about, you know, the fact that like, you know, if being more honest, you know, helps people, then that is the best thing to do versus like trying to optimize for lying about saying, I mean, look, I did work 996 for about three months just to try it out.
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:26.319
And and then I realized that it wasn't sustainable and I shouldn't do 996 anymore.
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:35.039
So what I'm doing right now is probably doing 830, 830, uh, 730, right?
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:35.920
So what is that?
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:39.599
That's like that's like 985.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:49.759
So yeah, five days, and then and then on the weekend, like, yeah, I'm watching AI YouTube videos and I'm like working on like coding stuff, but that's not really work in my mind.
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:51.119
That's like I'm tinkering.
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:57.440
You're still working much more than the normal person, but it's a part of the game and you enjoy it.
00:33:57.759 --> 00:33:59.039
Yeah, I enjoy that part.
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:07.519
That's not but I don't put that in the work bucket, and so like when you say you're working 12 hours a day, what classifies as work?
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:11.440
Like, like by me talking to you, is this work or is this not work?
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:13.440
Like, I'm not really clear.
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:14.800
Um Right.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:16.239
Yeah, that's a good question.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:17.840
Do you consider this work?
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:35.280
Um, I would say it gets half credit because there's value in me talking with you because talking with you, you know, might lead to you and I finding other people who lead to some business thing happening, right?
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:35.599
Right.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:40.800
And I have to like plant these seeds not knowing what's going to happen.
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:44.800
So that could be and that could be anyone, which is exciting.
00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:53.440
Like the example I gave you earlier, which is if I'm helping an investor whose son or daughter is trying to start a startup, right?
00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:55.679
And they're in high school, like, is that work?
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.199
Like, maybe, maybe not, but then it leads to work, right?
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:14.400
So so you know, you do it anyway, and um, and so you don't basically doing strict accounting on how hard you're working is it's it's it's really a foolish thing, I in my opinion.
00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:18.159
Like it doesn't really, it doesn't really matter.
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:22.960
Um I think that most people do it so that they can compare and say that they're working that hard.
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:27.679
I don't think that most people posting that they're working 996 are actually doing it.
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:44.159
Maybe they are, but or even if they are, they're definitely I don't think they're really enjoying it, but part of the, at least from what I've found talking to people, part of the joy in it is simply the fact that they get to post about it and tell people that they're doing it.
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:46.639
Yeah, exactly.
00:35:47.440 --> 00:36:06.079
Um and and I think there's like a time and a place for working very intensely, like if you're just getting something off the ground, like if you're doing like paper intense work for a few months, because you you know what to do, you're clearly directed, and now it's about pure execution.
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:08.719
I can understand the justification.
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:22.800
But when your work becomes more relational, um, when it becomes more about ideas and creativity, having spaciousness is a prerequisite to having high performance.
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:27.599
So, you know, it it depends, is the answer.
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:30.000
Should I work crazy hours or not?
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:30.800
Right.
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:40.000
So I think the idea of having a clear focus that you're working towards is really interesting for you because, from my understanding, you're doing a lot of different things.
00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:41.679
You have a lot of different projects.
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:53.760
And in my life, something I've really needed to work on, and I still am working on, that is going to move the needle so much more is cutting out and saying no to the things that I don't need to be focusing on, right?
00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:58.880
And understanding that I don't need to be throwing all my eggs in all these different baskets.
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:09.440
Obviously, diversification in terms of I need to be working out, I need to be eating well, I need to be sleeping, but in terms of work and school, I can't have multiple businesses.
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:14.159
I'd rather have one business doing well than many businesses not doing as well.
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:23.039
For you, I think you're at a point where you can have many businesses doing well, but what are you spending, what are you focusing on, I guess?
00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:27.840
Is your focus purely the human aspect of it and other people do the execution?
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:33.519
Do you find that it's difficult because you have to balance so many focuses?
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:36.320
Yeah, it's a really good question.
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:44.880
And I think so I've surveyed a few people who have done this really well, including Richard Branson.
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:59.920
And the answer you'll hear from the Richard Bransons of the world who don't have one business that they're exclusively focused on is that they're not wired to do to build one business.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:18.800
It's not their core expertise to be super deep in one business, and that by having a meaningful role in multiple ventures, it gives them more ideas, it gives them more relationships, and um all that benefits their ecosystem.
00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:29.440
Um generally I find that people are gravitating towards just do one thing, go deep, be the operator or the Richard Branson route.
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:37.599
Um, and you kind of know, you know, if you just listen to your your your body and your intuition, like what feels better for you.
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:39.760
And for you, it's very clear for you.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:40.159
Yeah.
00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:41.039
And that's great.
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:41.280
Right.
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:48.800
And you just kind of have to go with what feels clearer to you and trying to fight against that and pick the other thing.
00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:52.159
It's just not not a recipe for success.
00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:53.039
Yeah.
00:38:53.280 --> 00:39:02.960
Well, I I think that uh that's so that's so well said, and everyone can benefit or the idea that you can benefit from having multiple ventures is so true.
00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:03.679
I've seen that.
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:06.079
It's even when they're so separate.
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:15.920
Like uh a climbing, rock climbing-based clothing brand and uh podcast on personal development, they're very different things, but they complement each other.
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:18.960
You can learn things, but not going upstream.
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:30.239
I that's one thing I've noticed interviewing people like yourself, where it's very effortless in a sense, what you guys are doing, where you're not battling upstream.
00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:39.679
You outsource the things that might feel like you're pushing too hard there, but in general, it feels like you're you're running downhill almost.
00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:55.039
I I don't know if you can if you've observed what I'm saying, because I I know that you definitely have uphill moments, but overall, I think it's a really high-value skill to be able to do things with the least effort possible.
00:39:56.320 --> 00:40:03.440
Yeah, actually, this is another survey I've run with my ultra-high performer friends who've built, you know, massive-sized businesses.
00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:13.679
And I would say the the general consensus I've heard is that 50% of their time still feels like running uphill.
00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:19.920
It takes a lot of effort, it's not that fun, and it's hard to outsource, it's hard to delegate.
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:23.679
50%, yeah.
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:27.840
It's a lot, but that I'm telling you, this is from like very successful people.
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:28.719
I know.
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:47.760
Um no one I know is getting to the, you know, to like, oh, it's like 80% or 100%, unless you're like like a maybe like an executive coach or like uh, you know, something that you know is a bit more straightforward and less complex.
00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:48.880
Yeah.
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:56.159
And so yeah, don't don't trust what people say on podcasts too closely.
00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:03.280
Um, the truth and the reality is that people who are successful struggle a lot more than they they make it seem.
00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:16.719
And you know, a lot of these famous, you know, business people and you know, entrepreneurs on YouTube, they're people like, you know, I see doubt to have a conversation with to try to understand what's the truth, just for fun, you know.
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:23.199
And these are definitely people you know, and and so I I I I try to challenge them.
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:27.440
I'm like, hey, like, why don't you just be more authentic with like how hard it is?
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:29.679
And they're just too scared to do so.
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:30.400
They don't want to.
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:31.679
Yeah, well, they would lose it.
00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:34.880
They would lose it because I have you heard of Dr.
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:36.719
Ann Anne Laure LeConf?
00:41:37.119 --> 00:42:03.119
She wrote the book Tiny Experiments, and she she's a neuroscientist, and she talks a lot about uh she disagrees with purpose and the whole thing around finding your purpose because she talks about this disillusionment we all have where we believe someone else has found their purpose, but they only have put up an act that they found their purpose because they think other people have found their purpose, and we're incentivized to find our purpose.
00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:05.760
But everyone's like, oh, they found their purpose.
00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:20.559
I I have to have found my purpose when they didn't really, and it's this whole game, but we're incentivized to do so evolutionarily because if n because we want to be recognized as someone with purpose that has a role, right?
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:24.320
And we're all living up here in this like purpose world.
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:26.960
We have we have a purpose, we have a role.
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:30.320
When most of us want to be down here, we're like, I'm confused.
00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:31.599
I don't know either.
00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:36.000
Uh it's this illusory game we play with ourselves.
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:38.800
Yeah, you are right about that.
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:40.559
I'm gonna give you a funny example.
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:55.679
So I have one friend who's very, very uh successful um and publicly also um offers coaching and content and teaching on finding purpose.
00:42:56.000 --> 00:42:56.320
Okay.
00:42:56.719 --> 00:42:58.559
So this is a purpose expert.
00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:10.800
And and this purpose expert, you know, I helped this individual map out what I perceive their purpose is and what's lacking from their purpose.
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:15.679
And I put together this whole chart using um uh AI.
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:21.440
And so I was helping, you know, this person on purpose, even though they teach purpose.
00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:30.559
And what this shows is that even the purpose experts are still evolving on their purpose, and it's not a destination you reach.
00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:48.159
It's like uh it's it's just something you're constantly, you know, striving to improve on and evolve and iterate on at all times, and that even for them, they need to learn from people on how to evolve on their purpose.
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:49.599
Yeah.
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:50.800
That's so true.
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:54.400
And yeah, it's even the purpose experts have this problem, Jack.
00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:54.880
Right.
00:43:55.039 --> 00:44:03.280
And it's it's scary in a way because so many people want what we want to believe as I Said we're incentivized to believe that these people have found their purpose.
00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:08.159
It's it's a great hope to have that people really can reach that, right?
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:14.159
It's it's like thinking of enlightenment as a destination rather than a spectrum.
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:31.519
It's so hopeful to think, oh, if I if I do this thing, I can reach this state of pure bliss, or to think of inner peace as some destination rather than again a spectrum, like, oh, if I meditate every day, I'm gonna feel great always.
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:41.039
And we have this addiction to trying to find this impenetrable state of almost perfection that we never will find.
00:44:41.119 --> 00:44:49.119
But when people can architect some image of themselves that makes it seem like that, we want to believe it.
00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:51.840
Even if they don't believe it themselves.
00:44:52.559 --> 00:45:04.559
Wow, that is probably one of the most profound things I've I've heard in really all these podcasts and interviews I've done.
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:07.199
That that's just like so incredible, Jack.
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:09.119
I agree with that completely.
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:13.280
And wow, I mean that that's a true mic draw up what you just said.
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:14.960
Thank you.
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:15.360
Yeah.
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:17.280
Have you read The Alchemist?
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:23.280
I read elements of uh parts of uh The Alchemist, but I've not gone through the whole book.
00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:24.079
Really?
00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:24.559
Okay.
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:32.079
That one, I mean, I'd say that that's where I read it so many times, that's where I get a lot of the things that I end up saying to people.
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:36.159
I I found an what were you gonna say?
00:45:36.320 --> 00:45:36.960
Sorry.
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:41.920
I mean it it's also challenging to like know these things on one hand, right?
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:47.599
Intellectually, and then it's another thing to actually feel it and to embody it.
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:57.760
And the reason I say that is just because, you know, there are you know um like stoicism is a concept I really am into.
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:09.519
I read a bunch of stoicism-related books, I've you know, watched a ton of the content on Daily Stoic and all these, you know, podcasts um and YouTube people who've talked about stoicism.
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:31.679
Um yet I think the way stoicism is taught is actually not ideal because it tries to to intellectually convince you to be stoic, but it doesn't help you like actually feel stoic by like teaching you how to somatically um um be uh at peace.
00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:33.519
And and that's a whole nother content.
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:38.960
We could do another podcast on that, but um it's it's hard to actually integrate this content.
00:46:39.360 --> 00:47:00.719
Yeah, I mean it's something I'm actually uh really passionate about that idea because I find that so many people nowadays, all their content is just to leave someone with like a five-second feeling of, oh, I feel a little bit better now, just so that they come back later, but there's not really transformation happening.
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:30.559
And I I recognize that, and you you might disagree, but I think that there used to be transformation in the personal development space with people like Bob Proctor and Earl Nightingale and Jim Rohn, and I've been connecting with people in that space recently a lot, like uh Blaine Bartlett and Jim Britt and like their friends with Brian Tracy, all these names of people, but they're so they're old.
00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:39.599
And I'm scared that that information is going to be gone with this new wave of information now.
00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:42.000
So I'm really looking for a way.
00:47:42.079 --> 00:47:55.280
I'm I'm hopping on a call with a few of them later this week to figure out a way to continue that information into the into the new age because I do agree with you where it's really, really hard to get people to make that somatic change.
00:47:55.360 --> 00:48:06.639
We're teaching concepts that need to be integrated into our life intellectually and not really providing uh a medium for people to create that change.
00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:18.719
And I think it almost creates more frustration because the bigger the gap is between what we know and what we're doing and what we think we're capable of and what we see in our life, the more frustration and suffering we create.
00:48:20.079 --> 00:48:22.880
Yeah, that's that's a really great observation.
00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:25.840
What's your theory on why that is?
00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:27.519
Um, everything you just said.
00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:35.519
Why why is it such that that content is, you know, being less um revealed to the public?
00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:37.679
I think it's I think it's boring.
00:48:37.920 --> 00:48:43.440
And I also think that yeah, I think it's boring and it's not owned.
00:48:43.599 --> 00:48:48.400
A lot of those people, they would always credit others for the information.
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:53.199
And nowadays we really look to people to have all the answers themselves.
00:48:53.440 --> 00:48:57.679
Whereas Bob Proctor in an interview, he would always say, like, oh, this isn't me.
00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:59.840
I learned this from XYZ.
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:11.039
And it's that humility that we can say that we look up to it, but we might not really be as attracted to it on a social media platform.
00:49:11.280 --> 00:49:12.719
What do you think about that?
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:16.800
Wow, I I think you're spot on correct with that.
00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:26.639
What that makes me think about is I think a lot of people who set up YouTube channels are incented to inflate their ego.
00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:41.039
And so they're less predisposed to wanting to, you know, give credit to other people and do long, ultra long form, boring content because on YouTube, it's like TikTok or Instagram, right?
00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:43.679
People want a dopamine release.
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:48.159
They want to fix your problem immediately type of uh relief.
00:49:48.480 --> 00:49:48.880
Yeah.
00:49:49.199 --> 00:50:01.119
Um and doing hard work over a long stretch of time, um, developing healthy habits that's not really clickbeat content.
00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:08.400
You know, the the tried and tested true methods um doing X, Y, or C, it's it's like you have to just do work.
00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:12.960
Like you actually have to just show up at the gym every day and do the same thing over and over and over again.
00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:15.360
It's like not, it's not compelling.
00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:16.639
There's no clickbeat.
00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:21.360
Yeah, there's no shortcuts, and it's it's annoying because we always want there to be one.
00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:22.159
Yeah.
00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:23.840
Exactly.
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:30.000
But I think what's what we're gonna see happen, um, and I gotta run here in a minute, Jack, but I really have enjoyed this.
00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:38.079
I think that we're we had that all these great people putting out great content, boring content.
00:50:38.239 --> 00:51:17.760
Now we're seeing a lot of clickbeat and a lot of like this diff in quality, and um, you know, but I think we're gonna see a reversion back to the tried, true, classic wisdom, because I think people are going to realize that they're not getting the solution they want, and they want something more meaningful, they want something deeper, they don't want, you know, this bunch of AI slop now all over the internet, a bunch of, you know, yeah, regurgitated content that like just feels repeated and it doesn't feel actually that interesting and unique and satisfying.
00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:21.119
And I think people are gonna start turning back to that in the next year or two.
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:23.360
So I'm I'm actually not as worried.
00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:26.239
Um I'm very optimistic about that future, Jack.
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:27.840
I love to hear that.
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:29.599
Well, Jess, this has been incredible.
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:31.840
Thank you so much for taking the time.
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:34.960
Uh, I've loved getting to know you and talk to you.
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:36.960
Likewise, thank you, Jack.
00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:39.760
Let's uh we gotta hang in person at some point, all right?
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:41.039
I would love that.
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:46.800
Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of the Grateful Podcast and staying until the end.
00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:47.920
You're committed.
00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:49.760
I respect that about you.
00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:58.079
If this conversation meant something to you, subscribe to the show and share it with just one person who could benefit from hearing this today.
00:51:58.719 --> 00:51:59.440
Thank you so much.
00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:01.599
Stay grateful, stay hungry.
00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:02.800
I'm Jack Wagner.
00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:04.719
This has been the Grateful Podcast.
