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Welcome to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
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I'm your host, Mari Riesberg.
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Over the past several years, I've combined my degrees in acting and somatic psychology to share my sustaining creativity techniques with performers.
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And now I've decided to share with a bigger audience that includes you.
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I believe we are all creative, and this podcast is all about that.
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I'll be interviewing people from all backgrounds, ages, and creativity experiences to share just how creative we all are.
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Today I'll be chatting with Sarah Kaufman, award-winning musical theater writer and performer.
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Please enjoy Sarah Kaufman.
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Welcome to the podcast.
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Hi, thank you for having me.
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I am super excited to chat about creativity with you.
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And before we get into that, why don't you take a couple of minutes and let our listeners know a little bit more about who you are and what it is you do?
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Yeah, for sure.
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Uh so my name, as said Sarah Kaufman.
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I am a musical theater writer and performer based in New York City.
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And uh, let's see, it was six years ago now.
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That's crazy.
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Uh I was fully unemployed, as many were, and the only thing I had going for me was a DD game run by one of my dear friends, Chloe.
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And so um I decided to thank Chloe for keeping all of us going with this virtual game throughout the pandemic that I would write her my character's backstory.
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I sat down, I figured, oh, this will be a nice, you know, 3,000-word little jaunt through fantasy.
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And I emerged seven days later with a 63,000-word novel.
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Wow.
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Okay, keep going.
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Well, the thing is, I'm not a novelist, despite the mounting evidence to the contrary.
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I am a musical theater writer.
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So when I sent it to Chloe, um, after being like, what the her first reaction was, okay, reality shaper musical when?
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And I was like, this is a 63,000-word novel.
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I guess you can expect a musical about the time that six and a half hour musicals come into fashion.
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But I had just been diagnosed with autism.
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Shocking, I know.
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The hyper focused to write a book in a week really should have been the first clue.
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But uh I was suddenly surrounded and finding community with the vibrant disabled folks in New York City and beyond.
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And that really awakened me more than I already was to the fact that musical theater is inherently not the most accessible medium, not just in terms of disability, but also in terms of geography and financial situations.
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So as a writer, I was trying to come up with, okay, well, how do I create a musical that is going to be accessible to my entire community, not just the ones who are able-bodied enough to get to a theater, um, who can hear, you know, who can see, who can, you know, but like to everyone.
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Um and so this was percolating in my mind when I said the word six and a half hour musical.
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And I realized that if you took what worked so well about 36 Questions and In Strange Woods and all of these fabulous musical podcasts that came before, and you sprinkle in a little bit of Adventure Zone, and you add a dash of Crazy Ex-girlfriend, like you could create a piece of theater that is inherently accessible.
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So that was six years ago.
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Um, since then I've written four more novels in the series, and season one of the reality shaper, a musical podcast, is airing every other Tuesday as we speak and will be through October.
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So wow, my goodness, what an incredible like crafting of not only capacity, but honoring your journey along with so many others in just that invitation to show up and see yourself represented.
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Right.
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I think is such a stunning gift.
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Oh, and our our cast is is full of like the loveliest neurodivergent people you've ever met.
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That's incredible.
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Just to, I mean, I think so many individuals hear autism or receive a diagnosis on some spectrum, and it takes it sounds like maybe longer than you to find community, steep yourself in it, and embrace it.
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I was lucky that I was in good company.
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I wasn't the first person in my like extended circle who to like go through the process of having autism.
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So one of my friends like immediately invited me into her community with this um this theater company, this neurodiverse theater company called Epic Players, which is a fabulous institution.
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I recommend performers who are looking for you know more neurodiverse communities to join.
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Like, you don't have to be autistic, you don't have to be, you can be totally neurotypical as far as you know, and still join Epic.
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I love it.
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Yes, yeah.
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Nice.
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Well, on this journey of writing novels and musical theater pieces and showing up for all of this, when you think of creativity, what does it mean to you to be creative?
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Okay.
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So I I when I saw the title of your podcast, I was so excited.
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Because I was like, I have something to say about this.
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I think creative people enjoy being creative.
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I think writers like to write, I think painters like to paint, I think artists like to create art.
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The issue is that we uh live in a modern world where serotonin and things that make you feel good um have never been easier to access.
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You know, like TikTok, uh YouTube, uh uh this uh that, you you can pretty much just pick up your phone and immediately flood your brain with happy chemicals.
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So if your brain knows that it can get that same pleasure or that same satisfaction just by going, you know, picking up then swiping, why would it go to the effort?
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And it is effort, mean creative.
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Why would it go to the effort of creating something new?
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And for me at least, it was mid-pandemic.
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Like I said, all I had going for me was this DD game, and I finished all of the office and I turned off the TV and I realized I was bored.
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And so that was that was part of when I started like getting creative.
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I think the first thing I did was write a, I was like, I wonder if I could write a musical in a week.
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So I sat down and I was like, yeah, sure, we'll just spit it all out.
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So I wrote a musical uh based on this web series that my partner is obsessed with for their birthday.
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And that was so much fun.
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And then I got a bunch of my friends on Zoom and we all, you know, sang and read this dumb musical that I wrote in a week.
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And then I was like, okay, what else could I do?
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Oh, let me do this backstory.
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It quickly just exploded into this whole thing.
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And I and I don't have any experience with novel writing, like I said, but I think there's an inherent uh I mean the hero's journey.
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It's like once you if you know how to write a musical, you know how to write a book.
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If you know how to write a play, you probably know how to write a book.
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Like, cause if you just understand a hero uh character's uh adventure, like obviously it's a different now I'm getting off topic.
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It's all good.
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No worries.
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I love it.
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Yes.
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But so what I found when I was unemployed and bored is that I hit this really effective rhythm.
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I would wake up around 11 a.m.
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I would make myself some breakfast and I would listen to a podcast, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't watch anything because there's something about the seeing and the hearing that tells your brain it's okay to turn off, or at least tells my brain it's okay to turn off.
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So I would just listen, I would eat my breakfast.
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When I finished my breakfast, I would put on my playlist and I would start writing.
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And I would sit down and I would write.
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And that first week I wrote a little over 10,000 words a day.
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My I was, you know, visiting my parents at the time, and my dad would just like drop a baked potato on the desk next to me and be like, you actually need to eat.
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And I would be like, yeah.
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Uh but yeah, it I I managed to turn that kind of sprint feeling into a more sustainable process for me because when I went home after that and I decided I wanted to write, you know, the book two, book three, book four, book five, uh, I was hitting more like probably 4,000 to 6,000 words a day.
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Um, and and I would, you know, like I said, wake up at 11, eat my breakfast, write.
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Uh, it would be my partner would come home, we would eat dinner together.
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After dinner, my partner would go to sleep.
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I would put on my headphones, listen to my little playlist, and I would write some more.
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I would go to bed around 2 a.m.
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And then I would wake up at 11 and do it all over again.
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But what I found was was if I didn't give my brain the easy serotonin early in the day, my brain would become addicted to the creativity side of things.
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It would, it would crave it.
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I didn't have to force myself to sit down and write because I like doing this.
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And my brain likes doing this.
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And if I just reminded my brain that by not offering an easier hit of the good happy chemicals, then my brain just naturally gravitated toward wanting to do the thing.
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And that's really kind of the thing that I wanted to share and why I was so excited when I saw the title of your podcast because I was like, I feel like at least for my brain, I've cracked the code.
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Absolutely.
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It totally sounds I I love hearing just the I don't know, I the ease in which your you allowed creativity to show up and be present and act with it or engage with it, I guess, because I think sometimes try and squeeze it into the times in between, and it sounds like you had such space to allow it to deepen and grow and be really present.
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Yeah, if I could just collect nice big unemployment checks for the rest of my life and write novels for a living, that would be wonderful.
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Uh, but I think also relevant to mention is like it didn't happen right away.
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It happened a few months into uh everyone being quarantined.
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Right.
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I think a lot largely because before the pandemic, I was working a very stressful job and I was extremely burned out.
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So my brain just needed that reset of playing Animal Crossing and watching the office for eight hours a day.
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Yeah.
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I get it.
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I totally, totally understand.
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And then I just I yeah, I just hit that point where it was like, nope, time to do something.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I my curiosity is piqued in how how it looks today.
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Is it still wake up at 11 or what has changed?
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What has changed and and how do you keep digging into your creative voice?
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Well, yeah.
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Well, so um the books, those were written literally between um January 1st of 2020 and December 31st, actually October 31st of 2020.
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So those happened in the over the course of like is that 10 months?
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Nine?
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I don't know.
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Ten months.
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Um but the the writing of the musical version uh was a much longer process, not only because of the adaptation angle, because when you're writing one novel, it's enough to just have one satisfying hero's journey from the beginning to the end.
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But when you're writing something for an episodic, any kind of episodic storytelling, it needs to be pretty much a satisfying hero's journey every single episode.
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Luckily we managed to figure it out mostly by moving some stuff around, you know, maybe this scene that happened earlier, this happens later, yada yada.
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But that that whole process, I think from like beginning to write songs through to having a draft where we were like, okay, let's get this into the recording studio, was three or four years.
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And at that, yeah, and at that point, I was once again working 40 hours a week.
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Luckily, not not at a job that caused severe burnout most months of the year.
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Uh and at a job that I that I really like.
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But it still definitely limited my time, the time that I could work on it, also because I was in the BMI Musical Theater Writers Workshop.
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So I was writing other things at the same time as working on reality shaper musical podcast.
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I think the thing well, I mean, practically speaking, the thing that helped was people were really interested in this project.
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Um my team and I, we were invited to the Johnny Mercer's songwriters project, which I'm I'm pointing at in the background because I know there's no there's no video.
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Um, but uh and in afterwards we were invited to the Johnny Mercer, the Johnny Mercer Songwriters Grove at Good Speed Musicals, which is like very that was so wonderful.
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Um you know, we were we were given these um opportunities to workshop new material and figure out what works, what doesn't.
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And at one at one of those opportunities, we actually were able to meet with a dramaturg who I think really kind of opened opened up a lot of opportunity in terms of like the episodic adaptation for us.
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So so yeah, I think it's just a lot of collaboration, a lot of people believing in you and like sending you on these writers' retreats where you get that dedicated time.
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And when I was at that writer's retreat, you better believe I was like 11 to two in it.
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Every opportunity I get, yeah.
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Yeah.
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So, you know, the I think oftentimes time is the thing that escapes us from creative pursuits, especially if we have a 40-hour-a-week job that's or family or partners or just life lifing.
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What does that look like for you in kind of that normal day-to-day when you're not at a writer's workshop or you're not doing some, you know, something that takes you out of your regular scheduled programming?
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Sure.
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How do you how do you navigate the I don't know, laundry and cleaning the bathroom and all those other things that show up in our lives that we have to work around?
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Yeah, I mean, I have a dedicated list of chores that uh are like set to repeat once a week or once every two weeks, and that often gets neglected.
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I appreciate the honesty.
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Oh yeah.
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Oh yeah.
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I was supposed to scrub that bathtub uh last uh year, I don't remember.
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Uh and then eventually you know, you anyway.
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I I I find that the thing for me anyway, the biggest obstacle to my creativity in my day-to-day life is actually not any of the mundane stuff.
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Uh because at my work I well, like for example, uh, this was years ago, I was uh stationed way out in a corner, you know, helping visitors, and uh no one ever approached me.
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So I had a pen in my pocket and I had a map, and so I would scribble lyric ideas on my little map, and by the time my shift was done, I would have like an entire, you know, AABA ready to go sit down at the keyboard and and make something of it.
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So I I wouldn't say that the the minutiae keeps me from like that's not that has never been an obstacle because the creativity sort of finds a way.
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Yeah.
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Like in Jurassic Park.
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Sure.
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I love that though.
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I yeah, I think that but the biggest obstacle is honestly that I am a writer and performer doing their best impression of an executive producer.
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Because my project and everything I do is is fully self-produced, by ch my choice, by the way.
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I like there were people who were interested in making this, but they weren't interested in the reasons behind it.
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Like we wanted to make an an a hyperaccessible piece of theater.
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And once you're talking about turning that into or like making it inherently something else, it's like, well, sure, yeah, that sounds more marketable, but it's not exactly the mission.
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Do you know?
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Yeah.
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So uh we made the executive decision to go with self-producing.
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Um, and then, you know, life happens, people depart the team, and before you know it, it's like you're holding up a lot of marketing and stage managing and scheduling and just all of all of this other stuff that requires my uh creative energy to make happen.
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And it's even something as simple as yesterday.
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I think I spent like 45 minutes after work just compiling sheet music and demos into a folder for people who are in our next concert.
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Our next concert is August 24th at the Laurie Beachman Theater for people to to study and learn those songs for the next concert.
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But it's just like I have all that material, right?
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But it's just about like going, searching through Google Drive.
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Oh, is it in the drop box?
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Where do I find this?
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Such and such and before I know it, 45 minutes has gone by, and I haven't even sent the email that I was gonna send because I was like, oh, I better do this before I send the email.
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And so it's all of the producer things that really get in my way, all of the frickin' budgeting.
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I can only imagine.
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Yeah, yeah.
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But on the other hand, it's like you also make trade-offs when you work with a professional producer, when you work with a professional stage manager.
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It's like I my cast is is doing this for the love of the game.
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God bless them.
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I do not have the money to pay those people what they are worth, and they're aware of it, and they're doing it because they care about me and they care about the project.
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So, because of that.
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It's important to me that they feel that the the scheduling, that the communication is all extremely simple and easy.
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So you know it's important to me to take that time and do that out of courtesy for the people who are lending their talents to making this a reality.
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I love the just how much passion can get you.
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It takes you quite far.
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And then we also have to have other people believing in our passion to take it even further.
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So I understand that journey.
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Yeah.
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Well, I'm very lucky.
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My community is incredible.
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It sounds like it.
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Everyone showing up and helping keep keep driving things forward and moving things along and supporting you, I can only imagine in that process as well.
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Oh, yeah.
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Enormously.
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Well, for people who are maybe just starting out in the writing or musical theater writing and all of these pieces, what are the things that you wish you had known in the beginning that you would pass on to someone else?
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I mean, great work does not happen in a vacuum.
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I think building on what we've been talking about, community is so important.
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And building yourself a community of people who are better than you in XYZ way, that is gonna make sure that you are never settling for, you know, the middleest that you can do.
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Find people who are gonna tell you, yeah, that wasn't your best song.
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Find people who are gonna tell you, you know, this is really cool, but this is two different things.
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And you need to pick one of them and do that really well instead of trying to straddle.
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You know, and I was very lucky that when I went into the BMI workshop, I was immediately surrounded by all of these incredible people.
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I mean, Julia Roo, Andrew Underberg, like all everyone is so cool.
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:30.640
I have a I have a friend, uh Justino Tesoro, who uh shout out Marlies off Broadway, opening soon, go get tickets.
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:42.160
Um but I was like, uh, you know, he was sitting right uh adjacent to the stage at our last concert, and I was like, oh, Andrew, and I turned him and was like, Andrew Wonderberg's here.
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:43.519
And he was like, What?
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:45.119
I don't know if you know.
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:53.279
Andrew Wunderberg has done music for um like a lot of the Barbie movies.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:58.960
If if you're watching a Barbie movie and a mus and a song is good, that's Andrew Wunderberg's fault.
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:01.119
Good to know.
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:08.000
Oh, and has been hotel uh and some songs in Hell of a Boss now, too, like the whole Helliverse situation.
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:16.160
But um we have a we have a running gag where I'm like, I can I can smell an Andrew Wunderberg song from a mile away.
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:21.440
So I'll be watching something and I'll text him and I'll be like, this was you, and he'll be like, yep.
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:31.279
I love when you can see someone's fingerprint in in whatever it is you're listening to, watching, reading.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:36.960
And his music is just I love it.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:54.720
Well, it sounds like you have built such a rich and diverse community to support the work that you do when people are, I don't know, seeking community, finding community.
00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:57.440
How how does one how does one do that?
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:04.160
Well, I think you have to you have to seek out the people who are actively trying to be better.
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:12.240
You know, you're you're not really gonna like there there are meet and greets, and I wouldn't discount meet and greets.
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:14.880
I'm sure for some people, meet and greets are great.
00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:27.279
But for me, I have always met like the people who are gonna be lifelong collaborators and friends in training programs and in, you know, intensives.
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:50.079
And so if you seek out programs that are going to make you better at your craft, you are naturally going to find yourself next door to other creatives at your level or slightly below or slightly above your level, who are also, and this is the important part, trying to make themselves a better writer.
00:26:51.599 --> 00:27:10.160
Yeah, I I appreciate that distinction of like it is when you get into that intensive space where everyone is is working on leveling up that you are going to surround yourself and be in those more intimate opportunities with others.
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:12.319
No one is Sondheim, right?
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:19.200
Sondheim grew up next door to literally Oscar Hammerstein.
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:22.880
And we're like, no one, no one, no one is that lucky.
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:25.200
Maybe Sondheim's that lucky, right?
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:32.640
But but you're not just going to happen into a genius who's gonna take you under their wing and mentor you.
00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:33.680
I mean, that did happen to me.
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.839
I was very Barbara and Selmi.
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:40.720
Uh Sarah and Sondheim.
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:41.839
There we go.
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:44.880
Uh she's gonna be mad that I called her a genius.
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:56.960
But Barbara and Selmy, composer of It Should Have Been You, uh, heard some of my early work and was basically like, I'm gonna mentor you and helped me get into the BMI workshop and the rest was history.
00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:03.759
What an amazing right place, right time, or right person hearing the right thing.
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:20.559
But I I I mean, I don't think she would be insulted at all for me to say that like I learned a lot more in the workshop where it wasn't just one person's opinion that I was getting, I was hearing the audience's reaction because that's the thing.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:35.359
A person can lie, a person can have their own Michigas, uh, a person can, you know, have baggage that makes them see things in a certain way, but an audience does not lie, right?
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:52.960
You can trust if if you get a million laughs, that's irrefutable, pretty much, you know, and you can still you can still probably improve, but you'll know you're on the right track when you see people lean in, when you feel the room holding its breath.
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:56.000
Yeah, what a great reminder.
00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:57.359
Yeah, my goodness.
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:03.519
What a treat this has been chatting and creatively exploring all the things.
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:05.759
I have one last question for you.
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:09.200
What does it feel like in your body to be creative?
00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:12.720
I am not in my body when I'm being created.
00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:16.079
Thank you for your honesty.
00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:16.640
Absolutely.
00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:20.160
I am somewhere else entirely.
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:26.079
Oh, that's great.
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:27.359
That is great.
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:31.200
So add this out-of-body experience when you're creative.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.559
If I'm writing a fantasy book, I am in the plot.
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:35.920
I'm in the scene.
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.880
If I'm writing a song, I am in the moment.
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:48.559
I'm imagining what this character is thinking and feeling and planning and how they would choose to verbalize it and what ways they would communicate these ideas.
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:53.759
Um I am not even thinking about my own stuff.
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:58.480
Like if I have something going on in my life, that's the furthest thing from my life.
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:07.680
And that is actually actually I found that to be equal parts therapeutic and effective.
00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:11.440
Is it okay for me to explain what I mean by that?
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:12.240
Please.
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:12.640
Okay.
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:13.759
Absolutely, yes.
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:26.720
When you see a piece of art, art quote unquote, that is someone's therapy on stage, you feel that and you cringe a little bit.
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:48.799
Like when someone is uh on stage doing a piece of art, but it's really just them like vomiting their feelings at you and processing their trauma in real time, that is felt because that is not pure art, that is pure emotional expression.
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:50.160
Right.
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:57.680
And so when I say therapeutic, I don't mean that it's just here's my feelings, my feelings, my feelings.
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:15.119
What I mean is that by embodying a character and thinking so practically about the way they would speak to something like betrayal or something like fear, um, something like abandonment.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:23.839
That allows me to access those parts in myself, those feelings in myself.
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:33.359
And so sometimes I will write a song entirely from a character's point of view, and often it's that's that's a good one.
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:35.759
I'll be like, yeah, good, good, good job.
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:52.240
And then I'll look back three months later and I'll be like, oh I wrote a song about betrayal right when I finally cut ties with that one friend.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:00.319
You know, I wrote a song about loss just after my grandfather passed away.
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:14.720
And it won't be until later that I look back and realize, like, oh, this song is good because even though it is specific to the character and specific to their dialect and their vocabulary, that feeling is real.
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:16.319
Yeah, yeah.
00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:19.440
Thank you for deepening into that.
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:32.799
And if you or any of our listeners want to kind of tease apart this even further, I do that in my episode with Alexandra Beller about being the witness versus the audience.
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:33.599
Amazing.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:36.480
So definitely check that episode out.
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:54.720
Yes, it was a it's such a deep, important conversation of the distinction between art and therapy and what it is to have a witness of your life and what it is to have an audience.
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:55.279
Right.
00:32:55.519 --> 00:33:07.599
And that distinction and where that line is and how so many things, as you said, feel like maybe this isn't for an audience, maybe this is for a witness.
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:08.400
Yes.
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:10.400
So yeah.
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:16.799
Which in my industry you have to be really careful about because people are paying money for these theater tickets.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:17.519
Oh, yes.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:35.039
So if I pay money for a theater ticket and then I'm sitting in an audience while someone is vomiting their feelings and working through their life, I'm gonna be like, hmm, maybe my$70 should have gone towards uh something else.
00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:36.000
Something else.
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:37.680
I completely understand.
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:39.839
Yeah, or part of a therapy session.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:40.319
Yes.
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:41.039
Yeah.
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:45.519
Well, Sarah, thank you so much for taking the time to join me.
00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:46.240
Thank you for watching.
00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:52.559
If people want to learn more about the work that you have out in the world, how could they go about doing that?
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:58.000
SarahKaufman.com has all of my stuff.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:03.440
And for more on the reality shaper, you can go to the reality shaper.com.
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:05.839
Uh, please listen to the podcast.
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:08.159
It's on all podcast platforms.
00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:10.880
If you're listening to this, that means you listen to podcasts.
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:18.719
So if you want, it's a DD-inspired fantasy musical podcast featuring epic adventure and a queer enemies to lover's arc.
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:20.480
It's also really funny.
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:22.000
It's so funny.
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:23.039
I love it.
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:24.719
Well, I will definitely check it out.
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:26.320
And thank you so much.
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:29.760
I will put links in show notes so people have easy access.
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:33.280
And again, this has been such a treat chatting with you.
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:34.960
I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:50.159
Thanks for listening to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:53.920
We'd love to keep in touch, so follow us on Facebook and Instagram.
00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:56.320
We are at Sustaining Creativity.
00:34:56.639 --> 00:35:00.239
Make sure to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:07.039
So leave your reviews, comments, and questions.
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:13.840
Check out our website, sustainingcreativity.com, for upcoming offerings and creativity coaching.
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:16.639
Tune in Tuesdays for our next episode.
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:20.000
And remember, with creativity, anything possible.
00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:22.399
Welcome to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:24.160
I'm your host, Mari Riesberg.
00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:30.960
Over the past several years, I've combined my degrees in acting and somatic psychology to share my sustaining creativity techniques with performers.
00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:34.719
And now I've decided to share with a bigger audience that includes you.
00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:39.280
I believe we are all creative, and this podcast is all about that.
00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:45.920
I'll be interviewing people from all backgrounds, ages, and creativity experiences to share just how creative we all are.
00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:51.200
Today I'll be chatting with Sarah Kaufman, award-winning musical theater writer and performer.
00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:54.000
Please enjoy Sarah Kaufman.
00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:18.000
Welcome to the podcast.
00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:20.400
Hi, thank you for having me.
00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:24.799
I am super excited to chat about creativity with you.
00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:33.040
And before we get into that, why don't you take a couple of minutes and let our listeners know a little bit more about who you are and what it is you do?
00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:34.400
Yeah, for sure.
00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:37.840
Uh so my name, as said Sarah Kaufman.
00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:42.799
I am a musical theater writer and performer based in New York City.
00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:46.640
And uh, let's see, it was six years ago now.
00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:47.920
That's crazy.
00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:56.719
Uh I was fully unemployed, as many were, and the only thing I had going for me was a DD game run by one of my dear friends, Chloe.
00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:07.519
And so um I decided to thank Chloe for keeping all of us going with this virtual game throughout the pandemic that I would write her my character's backstory.
00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:14.000
I sat down, I figured, oh, this will be a nice, you know, 3,000-word little jaunt through fantasy.
00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:18.879
And I emerged seven days later with a 63,000-word novel.
00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:21.120
Wow.
00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:22.560
Okay, keep going.
00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:27.840
Well, the thing is, I'm not a novelist, despite the mounting evidence to the contrary.
00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:29.520
I am a musical theater writer.
00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:38.639
So when I sent it to Chloe, um, after being like, what the her first reaction was, okay, reality shaper musical when?
00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:42.400
And I was like, this is a 63,000-word novel.
00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:48.879
I guess you can expect a musical about the time that six and a half hour musicals come into fashion.
00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:52.000
But I had just been diagnosed with autism.
00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:53.680
Shocking, I know.
00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:57.840
The hyper focused to write a book in a week really should have been the first clue.
00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:12.000
But uh I was suddenly surrounded and finding community with the vibrant disabled folks in New York City and beyond.
00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:28.080
And that really awakened me more than I already was to the fact that musical theater is inherently not the most accessible medium, not just in terms of disability, but also in terms of geography and financial situations.
00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:49.120
So as a writer, I was trying to come up with, okay, well, how do I create a musical that is going to be accessible to my entire community, not just the ones who are able-bodied enough to get to a theater, um, who can hear, you know, who can see, who can, you know, but like to everyone.
00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:57.680
Um and so this was percolating in my mind when I said the word six and a half hour musical.
00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:22.079
And I realized that if you took what worked so well about 36 Questions and In Strange Woods and all of these fabulous musical podcasts that came before, and you sprinkle in a little bit of Adventure Zone, and you add a dash of Crazy Ex-girlfriend, like you could create a piece of theater that is inherently accessible.
00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:24.800
So that was six years ago.
00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:39.519
Um, since then I've written four more novels in the series, and season one of the reality shaper, a musical podcast, is airing every other Tuesday as we speak and will be through October.
00:04:39.839 --> 00:05:04.959
So wow, my goodness, what an incredible like crafting of not only capacity, but honoring your journey along with so many others in just that invitation to show up and see yourself represented.
00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:05.279
Right.
00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:08.800
I think is such a stunning gift.
00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:15.199
Oh, and our our cast is is full of like the loveliest neurodivergent people you've ever met.
00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:18.639
That's incredible.
00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:40.240
Just to, I mean, I think so many individuals hear autism or receive a diagnosis on some spectrum, and it takes it sounds like maybe longer than you to find community, steep yourself in it, and embrace it.
00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:43.040
I was lucky that I was in good company.
00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:52.720
I wasn't the first person in my like extended circle who to like go through the process of having autism.
00:05:53.040 --> 00:06:08.079
So one of my friends like immediately invited me into her community with this um this theater company, this neurodiverse theater company called Epic Players, which is a fabulous institution.
00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:14.079
I recommend performers who are looking for you know more neurodiverse communities to join.
00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:21.040
Like, you don't have to be autistic, you don't have to be, you can be totally neurotypical as far as you know, and still join Epic.
00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:23.759
I love it.
00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:25.680
Yes, yeah.
00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:26.800
Nice.
00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:40.639
Well, on this journey of writing novels and musical theater pieces and showing up for all of this, when you think of creativity, what does it mean to you to be creative?
00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:41.439
Okay.
00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:49.199
So I I when I saw the title of your podcast, I was so excited.
00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:52.959
Because I was like, I have something to say about this.
00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:59.120
I think creative people enjoy being creative.
00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:07.279
I think writers like to write, I think painters like to paint, I think artists like to create art.
00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:24.160
The issue is that we uh live in a modern world where serotonin and things that make you feel good um have never been easier to access.
00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:34.639
You know, like TikTok, uh YouTube, uh uh this uh that, you you can pretty much just pick up your phone and immediately flood your brain with happy chemicals.
00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:47.920
So if your brain knows that it can get that same pleasure or that same satisfaction just by going, you know, picking up then swiping, why would it go to the effort?
00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:50.240
And it is effort, mean creative.
00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:54.639
Why would it go to the effort of creating something new?
00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:58.639
And for me at least, it was mid-pandemic.
00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:09.680
Like I said, all I had going for me was this DD game, and I finished all of the office and I turned off the TV and I realized I was bored.
00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:16.399
And so that was that was part of when I started like getting creative.
00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:22.800
I think the first thing I did was write a, I was like, I wonder if I could write a musical in a week.
00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:27.279
So I sat down and I was like, yeah, sure, we'll just spit it all out.
00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:35.679
So I wrote a musical uh based on this web series that my partner is obsessed with for their birthday.
00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:36.960
And that was so much fun.
00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:43.440
And then I got a bunch of my friends on Zoom and we all, you know, sang and read this dumb musical that I wrote in a week.
00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:45.200
And then I was like, okay, what else could I do?
00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:47.279
Oh, let me do this backstory.
00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:50.639
It quickly just exploded into this whole thing.
00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:58.960
And I and I don't have any experience with novel writing, like I said, but I think there's an inherent uh I mean the hero's journey.
00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:02.000
It's like once you if you know how to write a musical, you know how to write a book.
00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:06.000
If you know how to write a play, you probably know how to write a book.
00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:14.399
Like, cause if you just understand a hero uh character's uh adventure, like obviously it's a different now I'm getting off topic.
00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:15.440
It's all good.
00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:16.000
No worries.
00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:16.480
I love it.
00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:18.879
Yes.
00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:29.360
But so what I found when I was unemployed and bored is that I hit this really effective rhythm.
00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:33.120
I would wake up around 11 a.m.
00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:51.200
I would make myself some breakfast and I would listen to a podcast, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't watch anything because there's something about the seeing and the hearing that tells your brain it's okay to turn off, or at least tells my brain it's okay to turn off.
00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:53.840
So I would just listen, I would eat my breakfast.
00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:59.519
When I finished my breakfast, I would put on my playlist and I would start writing.
00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:01.360
And I would sit down and I would write.
00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:06.879
And that first week I wrote a little over 10,000 words a day.
00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:16.399
My I was, you know, visiting my parents at the time, and my dad would just like drop a baked potato on the desk next to me and be like, you actually need to eat.
00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:17.519
And I would be like, yeah.
00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:40.320
Uh but yeah, it I I managed to turn that kind of sprint feeling into a more sustainable process for me because when I went home after that and I decided I wanted to write, you know, the book two, book three, book four, book five, uh, I was hitting more like probably 4,000 to 6,000 words a day.
00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:48.399
Um, and and I would, you know, like I said, wake up at 11, eat my breakfast, write.
00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:52.960
Uh, it would be my partner would come home, we would eat dinner together.
00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:55.360
After dinner, my partner would go to sleep.
00:10:55.440 --> 00:11:00.000
I would put on my headphones, listen to my little playlist, and I would write some more.
00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:01.919
I would go to bed around 2 a.m.
00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:08.159
And then I would wake up at 11 and do it all over again.
00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:19.679
But what I found was was if I didn't give my brain the easy serotonin early in the day, my brain would become addicted to the creativity side of things.
00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:21.200
It would, it would crave it.
00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:26.879
I didn't have to force myself to sit down and write because I like doing this.
00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:28.960
And my brain likes doing this.
00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:40.879
And if I just reminded my brain that by not offering an easier hit of the good happy chemicals, then my brain just naturally gravitated toward wanting to do the thing.
00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:51.360
And that's really kind of the thing that I wanted to share and why I was so excited when I saw the title of your podcast because I was like, I feel like at least for my brain, I've cracked the code.
00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:52.639
Absolutely.
00:11:52.799 --> 00:12:25.519
It totally sounds I I love hearing just the I don't know, I the ease in which your you allowed creativity to show up and be present and act with it or engage with it, I guess, because I think sometimes try and squeeze it into the times in between, and it sounds like you had such space to allow it to deepen and grow and be really present.
00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:34.639
Yeah, if I could just collect nice big unemployment checks for the rest of my life and write novels for a living, that would be wonderful.
00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:39.679
Uh, but I think also relevant to mention is like it didn't happen right away.
00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:45.840
It happened a few months into uh everyone being quarantined.
00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:46.399
Right.
00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:53.840
I think a lot largely because before the pandemic, I was working a very stressful job and I was extremely burned out.
00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:59.679
So my brain just needed that reset of playing Animal Crossing and watching the office for eight hours a day.
00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:00.159
Yeah.
00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:01.840
I get it.
00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:03.759
I totally, totally understand.
00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:08.960
And then I just I yeah, I just hit that point where it was like, nope, time to do something.
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:10.799
Yeah, absolutely.
00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:17.120
I my curiosity is piqued in how how it looks today.
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:21.120
Is it still wake up at 11 or what has changed?
00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:26.559
What has changed and and how do you keep digging into your creative voice?
00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:27.679
Well, yeah.
00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:44.799
Well, so um the books, those were written literally between um January 1st of 2020 and December 31st, actually October 31st of 2020.
00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:48.879
So those happened in the over the course of like is that 10 months?
00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:49.759
Nine?
00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:50.399
I don't know.
00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:51.679
Ten months.
00:13:52.320 --> 00:14:11.200
Um but the the writing of the musical version uh was a much longer process, not only because of the adaptation angle, because when you're writing one novel, it's enough to just have one satisfying hero's journey from the beginning to the end.
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:22.559
But when you're writing something for an episodic, any kind of episodic storytelling, it needs to be pretty much a satisfying hero's journey every single episode.
00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:35.279
Luckily we managed to figure it out mostly by moving some stuff around, you know, maybe this scene that happened earlier, this happens later, yada yada.
00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:50.960
But that that whole process, I think from like beginning to write songs through to having a draft where we were like, okay, let's get this into the recording studio, was three or four years.
00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:57.919
And at that, yeah, and at that point, I was once again working 40 hours a week.
00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:05.679
Luckily, not not at a job that caused severe burnout most months of the year.
00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:10.000
Uh and at a job that I that I really like.
00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:19.440
But it still definitely limited my time, the time that I could work on it, also because I was in the BMI Musical Theater Writers Workshop.
00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:26.320
So I was writing other things at the same time as working on reality shaper musical podcast.
00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:36.639
I think the thing well, I mean, practically speaking, the thing that helped was people were really interested in this project.
00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:49.360
Um my team and I, we were invited to the Johnny Mercer's songwriters project, which I'm I'm pointing at in the background because I know there's no there's no video.
00:15:49.519 --> 00:16:02.879
Um, but uh and in afterwards we were invited to the Johnny Mercer, the Johnny Mercer Songwriters Grove at Good Speed Musicals, which is like very that was so wonderful.
00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:16.480
Um you know, we were we were given these um opportunities to workshop new material and figure out what works, what doesn't.
00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:32.159
And at one at one of those opportunities, we actually were able to meet with a dramaturg who I think really kind of opened opened up a lot of opportunity in terms of like the episodic adaptation for us.
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:42.559
So so yeah, I think it's just a lot of collaboration, a lot of people believing in you and like sending you on these writers' retreats where you get that dedicated time.
00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:47.360
And when I was at that writer's retreat, you better believe I was like 11 to two in it.
00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:50.960
Every opportunity I get, yeah.
00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:52.320
Yeah.
00:16:52.879 --> 00:17:10.319
So, you know, the I think oftentimes time is the thing that escapes us from creative pursuits, especially if we have a 40-hour-a-week job that's or family or partners or just life lifing.
00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:25.279
What does that look like for you in kind of that normal day-to-day when you're not at a writer's workshop or you're not doing some, you know, something that takes you out of your regular scheduled programming?
00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:25.839
Sure.
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:40.480
How do you how do you navigate the I don't know, laundry and cleaning the bathroom and all those other things that show up in our lives that we have to work around?
00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:51.759
Yeah, I mean, I have a dedicated list of chores that uh are like set to repeat once a week or once every two weeks, and that often gets neglected.
00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:54.640
I appreciate the honesty.
00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:55.440
Oh yeah.
00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:56.240
Oh yeah.
00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:02.640
I was supposed to scrub that bathtub uh last uh year, I don't remember.
00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:09.039
Uh and then eventually you know, you anyway.
00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:26.960
I I I find that the thing for me anyway, the biggest obstacle to my creativity in my day-to-day life is actually not any of the mundane stuff.
00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:43.039
Uh because at my work I well, like for example, uh, this was years ago, I was uh stationed way out in a corner, you know, helping visitors, and uh no one ever approached me.
00:18:43.200 --> 00:19:03.599
So I had a pen in my pocket and I had a map, and so I would scribble lyric ideas on my little map, and by the time my shift was done, I would have like an entire, you know, AABA ready to go sit down at the keyboard and and make something of it.
00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:14.640
So I I wouldn't say that the the minutiae keeps me from like that's not that has never been an obstacle because the creativity sort of finds a way.
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:15.200
Yeah.
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:17.119
Like in Jurassic Park.
00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:18.240
Sure.
00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:19.599
I love that though.
00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:33.519
I yeah, I think that but the biggest obstacle is honestly that I am a writer and performer doing their best impression of an executive producer.
00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:42.000
Because my project and everything I do is is fully self-produced, by ch my choice, by the way.
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:50.400
I like there were people who were interested in making this, but they weren't interested in the reasons behind it.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:57.359
Like we wanted to make an an a hyperaccessible piece of theater.
00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:08.160
And once you're talking about turning that into or like making it inherently something else, it's like, well, sure, yeah, that sounds more marketable, but it's not exactly the mission.
00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:08.880
Do you know?
00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:09.759
Yeah.
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:14.720
So uh we made the executive decision to go with self-producing.
00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:39.359
Um, and then, you know, life happens, people depart the team, and before you know it, it's like you're holding up a lot of marketing and stage managing and scheduling and just all of all of this other stuff that requires my uh creative energy to make happen.
00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:41.519
And it's even something as simple as yesterday.
00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:58.960
I think I spent like 45 minutes after work just compiling sheet music and demos into a folder for people who are in our next concert.
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:07.200
Our next concert is August 24th at the Laurie Beachman Theater for people to to study and learn those songs for the next concert.
00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:09.599
But it's just like I have all that material, right?
00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:12.720
But it's just about like going, searching through Google Drive.
00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:14.000
Oh, is it in the drop box?
00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:14.799
Where do I find this?
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:23.920
Such and such and before I know it, 45 minutes has gone by, and I haven't even sent the email that I was gonna send because I was like, oh, I better do this before I send the email.
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:30.960
And so it's all of the producer things that really get in my way, all of the frickin' budgeting.
00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:34.000
I can only imagine.
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:35.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:43.279
But on the other hand, it's like you also make trade-offs when you work with a professional producer, when you work with a professional stage manager.
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:48.799
It's like I my cast is is doing this for the love of the game.
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:50.079
God bless them.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:58.000
I do not have the money to pay those people what they are worth, and they're aware of it, and they're doing it because they care about me and they care about the project.
00:21:58.240 --> 00:21:59.519
So, because of that.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:11.200
It's important to me that they feel that the the scheduling, that the communication is all extremely simple and easy.
00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:19.440
So you know it's important to me to take that time and do that out of courtesy for the people who are lending their talents to making this a reality.
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:30.240
I love the just how much passion can get you.
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.039
It takes you quite far.
00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:38.400
And then we also have to have other people believing in our passion to take it even further.
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:41.359
So I understand that journey.
00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:41.759
Yeah.
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:43.839
Well, I'm very lucky.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:46.319
My community is incredible.
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:48.720
It sounds like it.
00:22:48.880 --> 00:23:00.559
Everyone showing up and helping keep keep driving things forward and moving things along and supporting you, I can only imagine in that process as well.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:01.359
Oh, yeah.
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:02.720
Enormously.
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:23.039
Well, for people who are maybe just starting out in the writing or musical theater writing and all of these pieces, what are the things that you wish you had known in the beginning that you would pass on to someone else?
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:29.519
I mean, great work does not happen in a vacuum.
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:34.160
I think building on what we've been talking about, community is so important.
00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:48.880
And building yourself a community of people who are better than you in XYZ way, that is gonna make sure that you are never settling for, you know, the middleest that you can do.
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:53.440
Find people who are gonna tell you, yeah, that wasn't your best song.
00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:59.519
Find people who are gonna tell you, you know, this is really cool, but this is two different things.
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:04.480
And you need to pick one of them and do that really well instead of trying to straddle.
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:11.519
You know, and I was very lucky that when I went into the BMI workshop, I was immediately surrounded by all of these incredible people.
00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:18.400
I mean, Julia Roo, Andrew Underberg, like all everyone is so cool.
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:30.640
I have a I have a friend, uh Justino Tesoro, who uh shout out Marlies off Broadway, opening soon, go get tickets.
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:42.160
Um but I was like, uh, you know, he was sitting right uh adjacent to the stage at our last concert, and I was like, oh, Andrew, and I turned him and was like, Andrew Wonderberg's here.
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:43.519
And he was like, What?
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:45.119
I don't know if you know.
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:53.279
Andrew Wunderberg has done music for um like a lot of the Barbie movies.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:58.960
If if you're watching a Barbie movie and a mus and a song is good, that's Andrew Wunderberg's fault.
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:01.119
Good to know.
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:08.000
Oh, and has been hotel uh and some songs in Hell of a Boss now, too, like the whole Helliverse situation.
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:16.160
But um we have a we have a running gag where I'm like, I can I can smell an Andrew Wunderberg song from a mile away.
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:21.440
So I'll be watching something and I'll text him and I'll be like, this was you, and he'll be like, yep.
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:31.279
I love when you can see someone's fingerprint in in whatever it is you're listening to, watching, reading.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:36.960
And his music is just I love it.
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:54.720
Well, it sounds like you have built such a rich and diverse community to support the work that you do when people are, I don't know, seeking community, finding community.
00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:57.440
How how does one how does one do that?
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:04.160
Well, I think you have to you have to seek out the people who are actively trying to be better.
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:12.240
You know, you're you're not really gonna like there there are meet and greets, and I wouldn't discount meet and greets.
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:14.880
I'm sure for some people, meet and greets are great.
00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:27.279
But for me, I have always met like the people who are gonna be lifelong collaborators and friends in training programs and in, you know, intensives.
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:50.079
And so if you seek out programs that are going to make you better at your craft, you are naturally going to find yourself next door to other creatives at your level or slightly below or slightly above your level, who are also, and this is the important part, trying to make themselves a better writer.
00:26:51.599 --> 00:27:10.160
Yeah, I I appreciate that distinction of like it is when you get into that intensive space where everyone is is working on leveling up that you are going to surround yourself and be in those more intimate opportunities with others.
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:12.319
No one is Sondheim, right?
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:19.200
Sondheim grew up next door to literally Oscar Hammerstein.
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:22.880
And we're like, no one, no one, no one is that lucky.
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:25.200
Maybe Sondheim's that lucky, right?
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:32.640
But but you're not just going to happen into a genius who's gonna take you under their wing and mentor you.
00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:33.680
I mean, that did happen to me.
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.839
I was very Barbara and Selmi.
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:40.720
Uh Sarah and Sondheim.
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:41.839
There we go.
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:44.880
Uh she's gonna be mad that I called her a genius.
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:56.960
But Barbara and Selmy, composer of It Should Have Been You, uh, heard some of my early work and was basically like, I'm gonna mentor you and helped me get into the BMI workshop and the rest was history.
00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:03.759
What an amazing right place, right time, or right person hearing the right thing.
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:20.559
But I I I mean, I don't think she would be insulted at all for me to say that like I learned a lot more in the workshop where it wasn't just one person's opinion that I was getting, I was hearing the audience's reaction because that's the thing.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:35.359
A person can lie, a person can have their own Michigas, uh, a person can, you know, have baggage that makes them see things in a certain way, but an audience does not lie, right?
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:52.960
You can trust if if you get a million laughs, that's irrefutable, pretty much, you know, and you can still you can still probably improve, but you'll know you're on the right track when you see people lean in, when you feel the room holding its breath.
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:56.000
Yeah, what a great reminder.
00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:57.359
Yeah, my goodness.
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:03.519
What a treat this has been chatting and creatively exploring all the things.
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:05.759
I have one last question for you.
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:09.200
What does it feel like in your body to be creative?
00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:12.720
I am not in my body when I'm being created.
00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:16.079
Thank you for your honesty.
00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:16.640
Absolutely.
00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:20.160
I am somewhere else entirely.
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:26.079
Oh, that's great.
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:27.359
That is great.
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:31.200
So add this out-of-body experience when you're creative.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.559
If I'm writing a fantasy book, I am in the plot.
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:35.920
I'm in the scene.
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.880
If I'm writing a song, I am in the moment.
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:48.559
I'm imagining what this character is thinking and feeling and planning and how they would choose to verbalize it and what ways they would communicate these ideas.
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:53.759
Um I am not even thinking about my own stuff.
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:58.480
Like if I have something going on in my life, that's the furthest thing from my life.
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:07.680
And that is actually actually I found that to be equal parts therapeutic and effective.
00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:11.440
Is it okay for me to explain what I mean by that?
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:12.240
Please.
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:12.640
Okay.
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:13.759
Absolutely, yes.
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:26.720
When you see a piece of art, art quote unquote, that is someone's therapy on stage, you feel that and you cringe a little bit.
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:48.799
Like when someone is uh on stage doing a piece of art, but it's really just them like vomiting their feelings at you and processing their trauma in real time, that is felt because that is not pure art, that is pure emotional expression.
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:50.160
Right.
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:57.680
And so when I say therapeutic, I don't mean that it's just here's my feelings, my feelings, my feelings.
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:15.119
What I mean is that by embodying a character and thinking so practically about the way they would speak to something like betrayal or something like fear, um, something like abandonment.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:23.839
That allows me to access those parts in myself, those feelings in myself.
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:33.359
And so sometimes I will write a song entirely from a character's point of view, and often it's that's that's a good one.
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:35.759
I'll be like, yeah, good, good, good job.
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:52.240
And then I'll look back three months later and I'll be like, oh I wrote a song about betrayal right when I finally cut ties with that one friend.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:00.319
You know, I wrote a song about loss just after my grandfather passed away.
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:14.720
And it won't be until later that I look back and realize, like, oh, this song is good because even though it is specific to the character and specific to their dialect and their vocabulary, that feeling is real.
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:16.319
Yeah, yeah.
00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:19.440
Thank you for deepening into that.
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:32.799
And if you or any of our listeners want to kind of tease apart this even further, I do that in my episode with Alexandra Beller about being the witness versus the audience.
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:33.599
Amazing.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:36.480
So definitely check that episode out.
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:54.720
Yes, it was a it's such a deep, important conversation of the distinction between art and therapy and what it is to have a witness of your life and what it is to have an audience.
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:55.279
Right.
00:32:55.519 --> 00:33:07.599
And that distinction and where that line is and how so many things, as you said, feel like maybe this isn't for an audience, maybe this is for a witness.
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:08.400
Yes.
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:10.400
So yeah.
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:16.799
Which in my industry you have to be really careful about because people are paying money for these theater tickets.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:17.519
Oh, yes.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:35.039
So if I pay money for a theater ticket and then I'm sitting in an audience while someone is vomiting their feelings and working through their life, I'm gonna be like, hmm, maybe my$70 should have gone towards uh something else.
00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:36.000
Something else.
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:37.680
I completely understand.
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:39.839
Yeah, or part of a therapy session.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:40.319
Yes.
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:41.039
Yeah.
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:45.519
Well, Sarah, thank you so much for taking the time to join me.
00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:46.240
Thank you for watching.
00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:52.559
If people want to learn more about the work that you have out in the world, how could they go about doing that?
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:58.000
SarahKaufman.com has all of my stuff.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:03.440
And for more on the reality shaper, you can go to the reality shaper.com.
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:05.839
Uh, please listen to the podcast.
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:08.159
It's on all podcast platforms.
00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:10.880
If you're listening to this, that means you listen to podcasts.
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:18.719
So if you want, it's a DD-inspired fantasy musical podcast featuring epic adventure and a queer enemies to lover's arc.
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:20.480
It's also really funny.
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:22.000
It's so funny.
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:23.039
I love it.
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:24.719
Well, I will definitely check it out.
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:26.320
And thank you so much.
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:29.760
I will put links in show notes so people have easy access.
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:33.280
And again, this has been such a treat chatting with you.
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:34.960
I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:50.159
Thanks for listening to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast.
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:53.920
We'd love to keep in touch, so follow us on Facebook and Instagram.
00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:56.320
We are at Sustaining Creativity.
00:34:56.639 --> 00:35:00.239
Make sure to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:07.039
So leave your reviews, comments, and questions.
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:13.840
Check out our website, sustainingcreativity.com, for upcoming offerings and creativity coaching.
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:16.639
Tune in Tuesdays for our next episode.
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:20.000
And remember, with creativity, anything possible.
