Interviews E08 Eric Pallant - Sourdough Culture

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Hi friends, welcome back to the Saving Bread Podcast.
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Today is a bonus Friday episode.
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And I won't typically do these, but I have an interview that I've been holding on to, and it's incredible.
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And I just feel like it needs to get out there.
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So it's just kind of a one-off, special, extra happy Friday for all of our baker friends out there who are in the middle of production.
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I hope that this is a fun thing to pop into your ears and you're on a drive or on a walk.
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Um, thank you for tuning in.
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Thank you for listening.
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And this conversation is going to be about um bread history, uh, the culture of sourdough.
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And if you haven't figured it out by now, this episode is an interview with Eric Palant.
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And he is the author of Sourdough Culture.
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We let our audience know about a month and a half ago that we would be reading this book together.
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And I know many of you out there did read it.
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If you did not, don't worry, you will be completely not lost listening to this interview.
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And if you haven't read it yet, I know it will inspire you to go ahead and go read it.
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And we're gonna talk about a lot of things.
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We're going to talk about um, you know, stories and why something as ordinary as just flour, water, salt, and time has stayed so deeply connected to us for thousands and thousands of years.
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We're going to talk about who's done a lot of the baking.
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We're going to talk about why sourdough may have been a comfort to all of us during COVID.
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And we're going to talk about what it means for a sourdough starter to actually be old, whether the age of a starter really affects the bread, how humans may have discovered lemon breads in the first place, and what industrial bread changed and why people continue to find their way back to making bread with their own hands.
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And I actually have a listener question that was sent to me when I first started this podcast.
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And my very dear friend Sasha sent me this incredible text.
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And so I asked her if she wouldn't mind sending me the message as a voice memo.
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And I'm going to play it for you right here.
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Hi, Allie.
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I was wondering if we can talk a little bit more about the history of bread and how we got to where we are today.
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I'd love to understand a little bit more about the societal aspects of bread and how we can all do our part to make sure that bread isn't demonized.
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Thank you, Sasha.
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And I know that all of your questions will be answered in this incredible interview with Eric.
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And before we get into the conversation, just one last thing.
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Welcome to all of our new listeners.
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Seriously, I'm so happy you're here.
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I'm so excited that you found this podcast.
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And if you're enjoying listening to the Saving Bread podcast, especially if you've been here from the beginning, I would so appreciate it if you just shared this podcast with another baker or just left us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
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It really, really helps us out.
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And I just love to read them.
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So on that note, we are just going to get right into the interview with Eric.
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I'm Allie White, and this is Saving Bread.
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So, first of all, Eric, thank you so much for agreeing to be on the Saving Bread podcast.
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It was very generous of you when I first reached out that you just right away were so kind and generous to offer to come on.
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So thank you for being here.
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Oh, you're too kind.
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And thanks for offering to geek out about bread.
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I'm always standing for that.
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I've had your book for many years.
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I've actually loaned it out a couple times and it's always made its way back to me.
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I read this book the first time after I heard about it on the Sourdough podcast with Mike.
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And I read it back then and then I reread it again about a month ago, up leading to this interview, so that I could be like fresh in my mind.
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But it is a book that I really, really enjoy and often recommend to others.
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It's a great read.
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So I have some listener questions, and then I have some of my own questions.
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So we'll just kind of bounce around them and we'll just get into it.
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Let's go ahead.
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So let's do it.
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So let me go to my first little question here.
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Yes.
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Okay.
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So your book begins like a detective story.
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You received this starter, you baked with it for years, and eventually began trying to trace its history back to, I believe it was Cripple Creek, Colorado.
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So at what point when you're going through all this and you have this starter, when did it become a story that you just felt compelled to investigate?
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You have kids, right?
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And you're a baker, and it was one of those I've been baking once or twice a week, and as your kids get bigger more frequently than that, teenagers, as you may or may not know yet, can inhale a loaf of bread in the afternoon.
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That's right.
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And so I just I realized I have this relationship with this bread, which has sort of become another family member, as anybody with a sourdough knows.
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And I don't know what triggered the thought, but at one point I recognize I've had this starter longer than I've had my kids who are now teenagers.
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Okay.
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That is the starting point for okay, so if I've had this for 20 years and somebody gave it to me, we're talking about something here that's pretty old.
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And it's a really simple question.
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How old is it?
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How far back can I go?
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And like you say, it's a it's a detective story, partly because I like reading mysteries.
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And I wanted to see if I could write one.
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And at some point the a a sub-question arises, which I'm sure we're gonna discuss, is this starter technically is very old.
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Nothing inside it, no particular microscopic organism is older than well, let's suppose a few weeks, if I've had it in a refrigerator for a while.
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And the larger question is, does it matter?
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Absolutely.
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And that actually gets me into kind of what I'm most excited to talk to you about.
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I'm excited to talk to you about quite a few things, but this is a question that I think comes up often.
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Right.
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What makes a starter old?
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Is it actually old?
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Can it have this very long history?
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Because it's almost like what you're describing when someone wants to find out their own genetic history, they they send their spit in somewhere and like they learn everyone's right, their whole history, which I would really like to do actually.
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But when it comes to starter, how do we trace back the history?
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Can we?
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Is there, for lack of better terms, like a genetic code that we can go back and back and back and see where it comes from?
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Or is it simply just as old as the last time that we fed it?
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And it's more about the story and the the history of the people who kept it alive that is part of the story and more important to say.
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So, what are your thoughts on that?
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What makes a starter old?
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And let's define old as far as starters.
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That's a great, a great question.
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So scientifically, old, nothing inside that bottle of galop is old.
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Right.
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Microbes just don't live that long.
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Correct.
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Right?
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So so we're not talking one about one of those galop ghost turtles or one of those ancient pine trees that's uh 6,000 years old.
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It's better to think about it as an ecosystem with multiple species.
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And so how old is a forest would be a better question to ask.
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Sure.
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Right?
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A forest could be a virgin forest.
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And even if it's a virgin forest, no tree in that forest has been there since the beginning.
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It hasn't it no tree in that forest is more than a couple of hundred years old at best, even though the forest might be four or five thousand years old.
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And it might still be a really interesting forest if it was cut almost to the ground in 1750 and allowed to regrow.
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Yep.
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Right.
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It's still a forest.
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So the there are two questions.
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You're asking how old is old?
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And the answer is, I suppose, not very, i if we're looking at a a couple of individuals.
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Though the culture itself might be quite old, like the forest might be quite old.
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Like your genetics, if you go spit in a cup someplace, might be quite old.
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I guess the question I have for you is after you get your results back from your own genetic history, does it change who you are?
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No.
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Because I just have my lived experience, but I could maybe start to make new connections that I didn't have before, think about myself in a new way, but it fundamentally it won't change who I am at my core, right?
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And the life of the city.
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Yes.
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Yes, that's a good way to put it.
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And I think in that regard, my conclusion after going back as far as I could go back and then reaching a point as I think we always would, is at some point before the history was recorded, we don't know who started the starters that were that are so-called old starters.
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And all we have really is the stories that we we've accumulated.
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And I love that part.
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I mean, that part you can't take away.
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And even if you create a starter tomorrow, because I've been listening to Allie White's podcast about how to do it, and I just got so excited, I started my own story.
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You've got you're the you're the parent.
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You're the this is your progeny, and you're gonna imbue that with stories, and when you share it with somebody else, it will always travel, it will always be given with that story.
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Yes, that is very true.
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So Leah, my co-host that comes on for the rabbit hole episodes or reads listener questions, she made the starter from your book.
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She followed the directions and she did a really good job.
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And within a week, she had one.
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And now it's hers.
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And if she wants to bake with it or give it away, it's that's part of her story now and the people that she shares it with.
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And so it was really fun to see that process and think about how you can create your own own story at any point in time, or you can, as you said, receive it from someone else and hear their story, and then you become part of theirs.
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Right.
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And so it's somebody's gonna have a story that says, Oh, I got this from somebody named Leah.
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And Leah's gonna tell stories, oh, I made this after Allie persuaded me to read this book.
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So that becomes the origin story of and which is why I the title of the book is I hope obvious to people.
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Sourdough culture is about more than the microscopic organisms there, but about who we are and and what's meaningful to us.
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I guess the answer to that question is not simple then.
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It might not be physically, biologically old, like if we're comparing a fruit fly to, as you mentioned, like a turtle.
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A fruit fly can be a couple days old and be very, very old for its lifespan.
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That's a good point.
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But a turtle can be a hundred and still be young for its lifespan.
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So it's relative to the life species that we're talking about.
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But what you're suggesting is that the story can be quite old, and in some ways the story and the origin can be more impactful than the actual life expectancy of a microorganism.
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It's the parallel.
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And I guess I would love to get your take on this.
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I have my own opinion about does it matter?
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Like the is there terroir that is associated and affiliated?
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And and I did have this really terrific opportunity where I smuggled my sourdough from from Cripple Creek, Colorado from 1893 to England and dried it out.
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No, I don't think I dried it out.
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I actually smuggled it.
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I put it in uh in a shampoo container and put it in my carry-on luggage and nobody checked.
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As only the British, as only the British would do, they have the national collection of yeast cultures.
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They have 4,000 different species of yeast.
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And I thought, okay, I'm gonna see if there's a genetic marker in my sourdough starter that is like unique to the top of the Rocky Mountains.
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This particular bacteria or these yeasts are really, really adapted to 10,000 feet above sea level.
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Yeah.
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Saccharomyces cerevisiae, the same as everybody else's.
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That's right.
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It just and and yeah, there are a dozen different bacteria, but Octobacillus were the same as everybody else's.
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It does taste different and smell different than anybody else's, so there's something going on there.
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But I will agree with you.
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I think there is something going on.
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I think that it's an indescribable phenomenon, and I'm not sure what that is.
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Right.
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But I also would argue that my exact starter kept in my exact home, but fed by someone else, would behave differently.
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I might catch it a little sooner just on repeat, right?
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Just the patterns of my behavior, the flour that I'm using with my hands getting in there, it it's going to affect it marginally, I would say, but maybe it is that marginal, tiny, less than one percent that has that unique flavor that you just can't even describe or understand because it's so little.
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You're a professional, and so I again I'd love I know you're supposed to be interviewing me, but I have all these questions for for you, which is again, the starter that was made two weeks ago seems to me will make bread just as tasty as the one that's a hundred years old.
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And that the the the factors that matter are really the experience of the baker, the quality of the flour, the freshness of the ingredients, the amount of time allowed for flavors to develop are really overwhelm in many ways.
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Absolutely.
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It's I think it was Trevor Wilson who wrote in his book that anyone can I can't remember the exact analogy, but it was something like anyone can pick up a guitar and strum the strings and music will come out, but a musician will pick it up and play the instrument.
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It's the same with baking.
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It's all in the hands and then the mind and the heart of the baker of what comes out on the other end, whether that's feeding, shaping, fermenting, all the things, it's it's a signature and one that I don't know that can be replicated from person to person, and that's kind of what I love about it.
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Yeah, I agree, but it also reinforces the value of the story, which is that there are two things, and they're not contradictory in any way, but they're parallel, they they come at the same time.
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Is great bread comes well from sort of love and experience that grumpy people don't make great breads.
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It's true.
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I've made some bad bread when I'm grumpy.
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Right.
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But also it's it's it's sort of nice to have a bread that this comes from Allie's bakery.
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Yeah, and I think that's a really great segue to my kind of follow-up question where I would love for this to go is what do we know about what do we actually know about how the first leaven breads were developed?
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Was sourdough invented intentionally, or I I know the answer because I've read your book, but do you think it was an accident that people gradually learned to repeat and adapt and manipulate?
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Uh the short answer?
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Yeah.
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I don't know.
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Yeah.
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I don't know.
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I don't know if any I don't think we can know, right?
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This is this predates any kind of written history of any kind.
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I I was just uh investigating, like, talk about uh nystomalization of corn, right?
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You're like, oh how do you figure that out?
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That you need that that to stay alive you can't just eat corn kernels, you have to you have to essentially cook them with ash, ash and lime, yes, right?
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Limestone ash.
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It's like who figured that one out?
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Right.
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I think about that a lot because my family is from Mexico, and so corn is part of my life.
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I I make tortillas, I I think about that almost every time I have a tortilla.
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I think about who thought of this?
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How did they figure this out?
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Right.
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It's incredible.
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In fact, before you next fertilize corn, cornmeal doesn't hang together well enough to make a tortilla.
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Right.
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Right?
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Okay, so that's an interesting thought.
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Maybe they were like, well, when I add this and this, it stays together and I also don't die.
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So it's like the great.
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But but I don't know.
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How do you even figure out I'm not gonna die in 10 years from Palagra?
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I don't know.
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Right?
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And so the same, I in my opinion, is true with the discovery of bread.
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I I got into some difficulty about this because I gave a talk where I acted out how I imagined it would have happened.
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Right?
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And and and of course, it's total speculation, and people took me at at my word, but the speculation is we do know that that that early domesticators of grain and actually before domestication of grain were making porridges.
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Okay, so so we're living on porridges probably for close to two or three thousand years, right?
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Which is which is grains that have been mortared and pestled and added to water and soaked and cooked.
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Now let's imagine you're in the Fertile Crescent where the temperature is is 95 degrees every day.
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You you you put together your this is how I guess it happens, right?
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You put together your your grain and your water, and you set it out on the counter, and your seven-year-old son just fell off a rock and is scraped his knee.
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Your 13-year-old daughter is is totally beside herself because she has no friends and nobody likes her.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:53.519
Your infant has been squalling at you forever, right?
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:58.400
And so you lose track of that porridge for a day or a day or two.
00:19:58.799 --> 00:19:59.599
I've been there.
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:02.960
I I I guessed, right?
00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:05.359
Anyone with kids has been there, right?
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:10.880
And you're you're trying to get this thing together, and it might be two days or three days before you get to it.
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:12.799
It's bubbling when you get to it.
00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:20.079
You are so irritable at that point, right, that you're just saying, I'm gonna cook it anyway.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:20.720
Right.
00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.519
And it puffs up, right?
00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:25.119
You get oven spring.
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:25.519
Yeah.
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:30.480
And not only that, when you give it to your kids, you throw it on the table and say, Eat this, I've had enough.
00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:31.680
They like it.
00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:32.319
Yeah.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:33.200
They like it.
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:35.039
This is a little bit lighter, a little fluffier.
00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:36.720
It's better than the old porridge.
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:42.079
And that's my guess about how women discovered bread.
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:46.960
Thank you, because that is also where I would like this discussion to go.
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:50.640
But let's stick a pin in the the women topic for a moment.
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:59.440
And I would agree with you because I've certainly forgotten about dough on my counter for a day or two.
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:10.480
And then I lift up the this is when I first started, and I didn't know what I was doing, but I would lift up the the linen that on top of the bannettin, and it would be exploding out of the sides.
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.359
And I'm like, oh well, that was too long.
00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:15.839
But I'm gonna bake it anyway and see what happens.
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:19.279
Or maybe this thing turns into a facaca.
00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:23.680
And it's a lot of things that happen are by accident.
00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:29.359
And then and then your kid says, Hey, I just brought over my friend.
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:30.799
Can you make that thing again?
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:31.680
Yes.
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:32.319
Right?
00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:33.359
I really liked it.
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:36.160
And then we all loved that old porridge.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:37.519
Please make it again.
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:44.640
And it's it's interesting, and I do think a lot of wonderful things that have been invented are invented on accident.
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:58.640
And I think, of course, the the story that you're describing, there's no way for us to know what truly happened, but I think it's logical to assume that it was something that had been forgotten in the heat and it started to ferment and then it was baked.
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:05.200
But you did make Mention women, so I'd like to kind of go down that a little bit.
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:16.720
Do you feel like there was any do you feel like labor from a specific group has been kind of left out of the bread conversation?
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:19.759
I I can't imagine what you're getting at there, Alan.
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:39.119
My limited experience, and I'm not an anthropologist, but in in sort of most indigenous societies around the world that are still based on agriculture and to a certain extent hunting, it's women who do all the work.
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:40.960
They do all the work.
00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:58.880
They plant crops, they harvest crops, they manage the grain when it comes in, they prepare the meals, and and men they go out and they hunt, and this doesn't matter if we're in Africa or Native Americans or men go out, they hunt, they shoot something, and they barbecue.
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:00.559
Right.
00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:01.440
That's what they do.
00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:09.519
They barbecue, they sit around, drink beer, talk over the grill, and and women are like, what have I been doing for the last two weeks?
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:10.319
Yeah.
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:11.039
Right.
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:17.119
So that that's I think thousands of years, and again, they're nameless.
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:25.519
They didn't invent anything other than survival and well-being and making sure their kids were fed, right?
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:26.559
Nothing important.
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:28.319
Yeah, just small jobs.
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:44.079
I it's interesting because I think women of all colors, race, ethnicity, regions often were doing the labor in the kitchen up until not that long ago.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:44.640
Right.
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:49.039
And not always receiving as much credit as others.
00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:52.559
And I do think that's changing a lot, thankfully.
00:23:53.279 --> 00:24:04.720
And I I feel like in your book there's a portion about men who are running the wood fire ovens in their towns, is that correct?
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:06.799
And then they have the symbol.
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:09.279
Right.
00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:21.359
Yeah, I I have not seen this, but but I've talked to people who if they if you take the right tour of ancient Rome, you will see more penises than you have ever seen in your life.
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:32.799
Right, some things have never changed, and bakers sort of had phalluses over their bakeries and over their ovens to let what kind of a manly man has just made your bread.
00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:33.759
Sure.
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:35.440
Love that for them.
00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:49.039
I think now if we're jumping ahead to so I I think there's a portion of bread history where in your book you describe it well, and it's flour becomes very processed.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:50.160
Very processed.
00:24:50.240 --> 00:25:01.039
It's become sifted, it becomes mostly white flour, mass production produced with yeast, fast, like hard, fast, put it in a plastic bag, get it on the shelf, feed the people.
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:03.359
Women are entering the workplace, right?
00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:15.519
There's a lot of things changing during that time where food, not just bread, but food, a lot of food changed, frozen meals, frozen vegetables, all these things to liberate women, and rightfully so.
00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:16.720
Fantastic.
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:32.960
Along that process of changing the way that flour is grown, processed, sifted, milled, everything, people became quite sick.
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:33.519
Yeah.
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:38.160
And so flour was then enriched, right?
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:47.119
And now we're finding ourselves in a place where, okay, we gotta go back a little bit because this this was not a good thing.
00:25:47.279 --> 00:26:02.480
It was a good thing at the time because it helped people leave their homes, it helped a lot of people be fed quickly, it made sense for the time, but now we a lot of us, me specifically, we're trying to go back a little bit and regain a lot of what we've lost.
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:10.079
And that's men, women, non-binary, anyone who is in this space wanting to bake and wanting to bring that back.
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:16.319
I guess my question is what did industrial bread production make possible?
00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:20.799
And what did we fail to recognize we were giving up?
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:32.880
I always think of bread as having, at least when I bake bread, there are four ingredients that you can see, and a fifth ingredient that's just as important, right?
00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:34.240
And where I'm going with this, right?
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:40.319
Which is I need good quality flour, I need water, I need my sourdough starter, and a little bit of salt.
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:43.599
I mean, you don't have to have the salt, but it doesn't taste very good if you don't.
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:44.319
That's true.
00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:45.599
I've done it on accident.
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:46.960
We all have.
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:48.880
It works, right?
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:49.680
It looks like bread.
00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:50.480
It looks great.
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:52.000
Tastes terrible.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:52.720
Yep.
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:54.319
And you need time.
00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:55.440
Yes.
00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:56.240
Right.
00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:04.960
And and and time is where flavor develops.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:09.440
Now, if flavor matters, you have to also eat slowly.
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:10.559
Right?
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:13.279
You don't just wolf your food and you have to appreciate it.
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:21.359
And well, I I think we should come back to the the the question of sort of food justice issues about who has time and who has money.
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:22.400
Okay, yes.
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:29.359
To either make bread or buy uh a$9 loaf of whole grain sourdough bread.
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:35.200
So the single mom with two jobs is going to be hard-pressed to get high-quality bread.
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:39.680
And so getting inexpensive bread for$1.20 for or what they call bread, right?
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:42.960
What we've given up there is quality.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:43.920
Yeah.
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:44.880
Right?
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:54.319
We're eating something that people in North America call bread, but has 35 ingredients in it to make make it work.
00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:56.559
And that's been the trade-off.
00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:12.079
But we still have to come back to ask your next question, but I do want to come back to why are people sort of returning to that is what I want to, I really want to hit home on, but I just want to go back to a couple of things that you said.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:27.039
The slowing down, I think, is something that everyone can benefit from, no matter what socioeconomic status or life story, how busy, how not busy.
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:35.839
If we all looked at our screen time at the end of the week, we would probably find that we have at least an extra couple of hours.
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:38.960
I will say that.
00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:48.000
The second part of that is I grew up in an extremely low socioeconomic status, was raised by a single mom.
00:28:48.720 --> 00:29:02.319
We didn't always have food at home, or we had to rely on food stamps, and there would be absolutely zero percent chance that we could have been able to afford the$12 artisan loaves that I make now.
00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:19.119
And that is something that I really internally struggle with because me as the the worker, the person who has to buy this flour, which is quite expensive and spend many hours making it because it is a slow process, I really wrestle with that.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:34.480
Of how could I not just have this be a hobby that doesn't make any money but turn it into an actual business, but also not exclude anyone from being able to eat what I think is the right kind of bread to be eating.
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:44.240
So I have a pay what you can loaf on my menu and any tips or anything like that that come in, just go towards that.
00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:46.079
And I have it on almost every week.
00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:48.799
And if it you give me zero dollars for it, that's fine.
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:51.599
If you give me two dollars for it, great.
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:52.720
No questions asked.
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:55.680
Maybe you pick it up for your neighbor who's going through something.
00:29:55.920 --> 00:30:05.599
I think it's a good point that you bring up of how do we make this slow food, this proper bread approachable to everyone.
00:30:05.680 --> 00:30:09.759
I don't think that I have the answer, but it is something that I think about a lot.
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:12.240
I I do too, and I have for years.
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:26.079
And I I know that many of us, the bakers themselves, they care deeply about their community and supporting local and being able to pay the farmers fairly and provide this service to the community.
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:34.160
And it's it is a challenge to do it in a way where we don't walk away with zero dollars and still make a great thing.
00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:34.400
Yeah.
00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:37.680
You have to make a living and you're competing with big bread.
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:38.240
Yeah.
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:38.799
Right.
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:42.400
Where the economies of scale are things you will never be able to manage.
00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:43.119
Right.
00:30:43.359 --> 00:31:01.279
I don't have the I don't have the solution to that problem, but I think what you're saying is interesting of kind of returning back to where we once were, of wanting slowly fermented breads, craving whole grain flour, wanting more stone-milled options.
00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:12.400
I think if all of us continue to fight for that, then maybe larger companies will also hear that that is what is desired and that's what's wanted, and potentially push the needle that way.
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:13.039
But I don't know.
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:13.519
What do you think?
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:17.759
Well, no, I I I already know that they're they're fully aware of that.
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:18.160
Yeah.
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:29.440
The year-over-year growth of sourdough bread is is so large that big companies can't help, but notice that there's profit to be made here.
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:32.880
And 30 ingredients.
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:38.160
Let's bring it back to the book because I have two more questions that I I would love to ask you.
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:42.640
So my first question is do you think that anyone can make bread?
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:50.000
Do you think that any person, if they could find the time, would be able to make a loaf of sourdough bread?
00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:51.359
Absolutely.
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:52.400
Absolutely.
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:56.799
And I will add, see, I brought my finger up in the air and everything.
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:05.359
And I will add that even a bad homemade sourdough bread is better than anything you can buy in the store.
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:06.400
Yeah.
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:09.920
I would agree with you because I've made those when I first started.
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:11.440
They were not good, but I've got to be a good thing.
00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:11.759
Right.
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:13.039
We've all made epic fails.
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:19.039
And but even the bad ones were better than anything you can buy in the store.
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:25.119
And and that is, it it is I I forget exactly how you put it, but the guitarist, right?
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:28.559
The first time you pick up a guitar, no, you're not gonna make beautiful music.
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:29.440
You have to practice.
00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:29.839
Sure.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:37.359
And with and you have to make mistakes and learn to speak dough and and need dough, and and with time better.
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:44.880
But but even from the beginning, uh a live guitar player like a fresh loaf of bread is better than a recording of somebody.
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:54.880
I think I think that if we bring bread back to the center, which is where it belongs, it has been part of our history from day one.
00:32:55.680 --> 00:33:16.799
If we allow it to take up space and we allow it to be valuable at its most authentic form, I do think that we as a society can find more time for it because we find time for watching the latest Netflix documentaries and checking our Instagram and TikToks and all these things that we prioritize.
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:26.400
If we prioritized our bread and our food as much as we prioritized these other things, I do believe many of us would find that we do have time for it.
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:30.000
Another reason why I started the podcast is I some people just don't know how.
00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:30.880
They need to learn.
00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:33.039
As you said, it takes a lot of trial and error.
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:34.720
Yeah, but it's not that hard.
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:35.680
Anybody can do it.
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:36.880
Anyone can do it.
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:38.319
Anyone can do it, yeah.
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:41.599
I mean, look, they did it 5,000 years ago without recipe books, right?
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:55.920
So when you were researching this and you were seeing the history of people making sourdough and they didn't have pH meters and thermometers, and do you think that people I fall into this category, so it you're not gonna hurt my feelings at all, though.
00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:01.200
But do you think that people overcomplicate sourdough and maybe scare people off from trying it?
00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:05.279
Like, is it truly much more simple than people make it out to be?
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:07.039
That's a good point.
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:10.079
I hadn't thought about that, but yeah, I think you're right.
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:10.960
Yeah.
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:23.760
And I think what happens is over time, like you start off, you you get your four ingredients, you make your starter like Leah did, and you you follow the directions, and it comes out, and you think, well, that's pretty good.
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:27.119
And then, I mean, again, there are also two kinds of cooks in the world.
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:38.000
There are the cooks who are the engineers who like things to be absolutely precise, and then there are the cooks in the world who's like, hmm, well, I wonder what would happen if I throw wild cherries into that.
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:38.800
Sure.
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:40.559
And just see what happens, right?
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:42.000
And those are the experimenters.
00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:52.559
And and and so you need a different set of directions, I think, for for those two groups of people, but they both need to practice and but they they'll both be successful.
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:53.519
I agree with you.
00:34:57.679 --> 00:34:58.000
Yeah.
00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:00.800
I'm tired of using my bowl and a cloth, right?
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:01.280
Yes.
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:05.760
And maybe, okay, now maybe a thing that holds my razor blade.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:06.159
Right.
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:09.599
And so you acquire these things that if you're sure.
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:14.000
You don't I think what you're saying is you don't have to go out and spend like$500 to make bread.
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:17.280
You can just buy a bag of flour and that's pretty much it.
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:18.960
You don't really need anything else.
00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:21.199
Maybe a Dutch oven.
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:23.119
That would help, but you don't have to.
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:24.000
You don't have to.
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:26.719
A scale would also help, but you don't have to.
00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:27.519
Right.
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:33.920
I think if you had a bag of flour and a pair of scissors, you could get pretty far, honestly.
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:35.360
You don't even need a lum.
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:39.280
You can just snip it or cut it like to score the bread.
00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:40.639
A knife.
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:41.280
Yeah.
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:42.880
A bag of flour and a knife.
00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:44.000
You heard it here, Eric.
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:45.679
Tells us that's all you need to get started.
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:47.599
A bowl would help.
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:48.719
A bowl.
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:50.639
But that's all you need.
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:51.519
Truly.
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:56.000
A teaspoon of salt, your starter, a bowl, flour.
00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:56.719
Yeah.
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:57.599
It'll work.
00:35:57.840 --> 00:35:58.000
Yeah.
00:35:59.199 --> 00:35:59.360
Yeah.
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:07.119
And then as you begin to discover that you do love to make bread, then you're saying start to purchase all of the little things that go with it.
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:09.119
But it's not some elitist hobby.
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:11.840
You can literally just go buy a bag of flour.
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:12.800
That's it.
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:14.719
Yeah, I agree with you.
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:28.480
When you were researching this book and writing this book, and now that you've had time after, did anything meaningful change in the way that you personally bake or think about the bread that you're making?
00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:34.719
I I think it's been so slow and so the development has been so organic that it's hard for me.
00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:40.320
I don't I don't think of a time where I made a major change in my trajectory.
00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:49.840
I just I keep learning more and more and more, and I meet new bakers who have new thoughts and new ideas, and well, I'll try that.
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:53.840
I I there's so much to learn.
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:57.519
I think I know a lot more about the microbiology of it now.
00:36:57.599 --> 00:37:18.800
It doesn't really change what I knew from the beginning because I had a vague notion of microbiology, and I had to feed these things and water them and keep them clean and clear out their cages when they they got filthy and and make sure they were happy, but now I know who they are and what species they are and how their communities might be changing all that.
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:21.280
But it hasn't really changed my baking dramatically.
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:36.559
And I think in some ways I'm a little disappointed that I'm so narrowly focused, which is again, I give them I give starters to other people and they do this thing like the wild cherries, or what if we had some chili powder or like things that I wouldn't think about?
00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:39.119
They're in my kitchen just like they're in somebody else's kitchen.
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:41.679
But I think that's what I love about sourdough starters.
00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:51.119
I give the same starter and the same directions to somebody else, and immediately, like within weeks, they're adding things that what if I had a blue cheese and garlic?
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:56.719
Just like I would never, I would never, and then they say it's fantastic, you should try it.
00:37:57.039 --> 00:37:58.480
I hope they share with you.
00:37:58.880 --> 00:37:59.840
Of course they do, yeah.
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:00.480
Good.
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:02.159
Or they do on Instagram, right?
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:05.440
Which is everybody knows no bread exists unless it's on Instagrams.
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:07.440
Of course, yeah, 100%.
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:10.400
It has to, you gotta put it on the gram for sure.
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:11.360
Yeah.
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:14.159
Um that is funny.
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:24.480
So if sourdough, and I think it will, if it survives another 6,000 years, what do you hope remains unchanged?
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:34.639
Or what do you hope is kind of pushed to the wayside about this, I would argue, somewhat of a phenomenon of a fad about sourdough.
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:40.639
So so let me let me speculate again.
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:41.119
Yeah.
00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:52.719
Again, I have no basis for saying anything we're about to say, which of course, if you ask my wife, that's never stopped me before from continuing.
00:38:52.800 --> 00:39:06.800
But but let's let's go to the COVID uh uh burst uh like w why like if there were going to be a sequel to the book, it would be this one chapter about what's happened in the last 10 years.
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:13.760
And and the the thing about like why sourdough during COVID, right?
00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:27.679
Yeah, we could we could have been working on our push-ups or right or our quilting or or but sourdough was the thing that people turned to and it it it's it wasn't totally logical, but I think it was.
00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:39.920
And so I go back to when human beings first were settling in societies, in sedentary societies, moving from hunting and gathering.
00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:46.079
Um there were there are two uh aromas.
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:48.000
Actually three.
00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:55.440
I've been collecting these, and if you have something to add, that just make people feel good.
00:39:56.079 --> 00:39:56.320
Yeah.
00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:57.199
Okay.
00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:00.320
And and one is uh barbecue, which is a very good thing.
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:02.639
Yeah, I was just gonna that was my first uh thought.
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:09.360
Even if you're a vegetarian and you're full, if you walk outside and your neighbor is barbecuing, you start to salivate.
00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:10.320
And why is that?
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:16.719
It means somebody has captured something that's gonna keep our collective alive.
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:18.639
And we're gonna survive.
00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:19.760
I agree with you.
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:20.400
All right.
00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:23.119
The second one is home-baked bread.
00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:30.000
And if we just talk about the aromas of home-baked bread, within minutes we will both be salivating and everybody listening to it.
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:31.039
And it's the same thing.
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:41.519
It means we have had a good enough harvest that our community is is going to survive another year of planting and sowing and reaping.
00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:42.320
Yes.
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:49.039
And and I would add to that uh the smell of good earth, of fresh, healthy soil.
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:49.360
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
00:40:49.519 --> 00:40:53.199
That was what I was going to suggest, or like a fresh grass or a fresh soil.
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:56.159
Freshly goat cut grass, right?
00:40:56.239 --> 00:41:05.360
They're all things that are deep, deep in our in our survival mode, in the survival part of our brain that says we're gonna make it as a community.
00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:08.000
And I think that's what kicked in during COVID.
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:19.119
Even if I have to bring it to your house, knock on the door, and run away, it's a way of saying, I care about you, and this means we're gonna survive as a community.
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:22.320
That that's my hypothesis for why it took off during COVID.
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:34.639
What you're saying makes a lot of sense, and I actually never really thought about it more than just surface level of this is what's trending, and people like to be trendy and they like to do the trendy thing.
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:47.199
But what you're describing is a subconscious response to smelling something that in our brain signals everything is going to be okay.
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:55.199
And I think that you're able to nose that out, no pun intended, because of the research that you did for your book.
00:41:55.360 --> 00:42:03.360
You're thinking about how this has been from day one and and how it survived all of these years later.
00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:18.320
And you're right, it is it is a signal that we had a harvest and we get to eat, or the earth is is healthy and plentiful and we can plant crops, or the the men went out and they hunted an animal and we have food for the next few weeks.
00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:22.079
And that is not something that occurred to me, but it makes a lot of sense.
00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:24.639
Whether it's true or not, it makes a lot of sense.
00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:25.039
Okay.
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:45.280
I had quite a traumatic birthing experience shortly after I started making sourdough, and so I was emotionally going through a lot, but I I continued to bake and it really gave me something to look forward to because I had I had done all the work and I knew that tomorrow I would get to wake up and I'd bake that loaf of dough.
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:48.960
And I was excited to see how it came out.
00:42:49.280 --> 00:43:08.239
So, to your point, when whether it's things outside of our control or things that are happening on a personal level, when things feel out of control or you don't have a lot of autonomy or whatever it is, it's nice to be able to turn to something that feels uniquely yours.
00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:08.719
Yeah.
00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:14.400
You can control it, you can put your hands in it, you can put your phone away, you can be completely immersed.
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:17.119
And I think as a society, we're craving that.
00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:20.639
We're craving that connection to ourselves.
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:26.480
And I do think that dough is in a mirror in a lot of ways, and it gives us something to look forward to.
00:43:26.559 --> 00:43:33.119
It's almost like Christmas morning the next day when you get to put that hard work into the oven and and see what comes out.
00:43:33.199 --> 00:43:48.000
And I think it's very healing in a lot of ways, and almost the same as finding the lineage of our sourdough starter, it almost connects us to our past to make something slow and again work with our hands and be connected with our food.
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:51.280
I think that I think that a lot of us are craving that.
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:55.280
You skipped over one really, really important thing, Allie.
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:55.920
Yeah.
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:59.599
You skimmed over it like it was nothing, but it's really, really important.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:06.079
If you are still making bread with a newborn after a difficult it can be done.
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:08.400
Right?
00:44:08.559 --> 00:44:10.800
It's not that time consuming.
00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:15.039
Somebody said making sourdough bread is is 30 minutes of work spread over two days.
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:16.000
It's true.
00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:17.679
It really is.
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:22.320
I think that I I think people make it sound a lot more complicated than it actually is.
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:28.400
Like if you just have those 30 minutes to kind of babysit it, the rest is a good thing.
00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:30.800
It's five minutes at a time.
00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:31.920
Exactly.
00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:36.320
I'm gonna ask you a couple closing questions, and then I've taken up so much of your time.
00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:39.119
Do you have anything that you're working on now?
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:40.480
I do.
00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:43.679
I'm in fact working on two books concurrently.
00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:52.960
One will be dropping in um the first week of January 2027 called Loaf.
00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:58.159
That book is about, it started with, again, the question I was asking myself.
00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:06.960
It's like I make I make bread by myself, as we discussed, and I do in my kitchen I have four ingredients, and then I ask myself, oh hang on there.
00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:11.840
I don't make my own flour, I go to the store to get flour.
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:15.199
And so now I need to add in the person from the store who sells me the flour.
00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:18.000
Well, nobody in the store does, because you have to check yourself out now.
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:28.800
But but some sa sa somebody stopped the shelves with flour, which came from a truck driver, I got to count the truck driver, who brought it from a mill, who got it from a farmer.
00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:31.280
And so I'm trying to count two things.
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:34.320
How many people does it really take to make a loaf of bread?
00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:44.639
If we count the farmer, the miller, the truck drivers, the nitrogen, the phosphorus, the potassium, the insecticides, the tractors, the fuel, and so forth.
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:47.840
So it's a it's a count of how many people.
00:45:48.400 --> 00:46:01.199
And I'm also trying to figure out my background is in environmental science, when wheat grows, it it it it turns sunlight and water and into carbohydrates that we need.
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:05.199
And those are listed as calories on the side of the bag.
00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:08.960
A slice of bread is 70 calories or something like that.
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:18.559
But all of those people who are moving trucks and chips and trains and stuff to get all the ingredients to come together are using fossil fuels.
00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:23.920
And so we're also eating the fossil fuels that are sort of embodied in the bread.
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:38.239
And I wanted to know is there more energy in the photosynthesis of the bread, making the wheat, or in the process of turning that bread into or getting all the ingredients to the right place.
00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:39.840
So that's what that book is about.
00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:47.599
And then right behind it, I was asked I didn't expect set out really to be the bread guy, but I guess I am now.
00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:54.400
A publisher contacted me, and so about a year after that I'm writing something called the World Atlas of Bread.
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:55.679
When does that one come out?
00:46:56.480 --> 00:47:00.559
So I'm guessing that one 2028.
00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:01.199
Okay.
00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:02.719
Early 2028.
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:10.480
That'll be 60 countries, maybe 120 different breads, and 200 really beautiful photographs.
00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:12.320
That sounds great.
00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:12.880
Yeah.
00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:14.880
I really look forward to both of those.
00:47:14.960 --> 00:47:20.559
I'm very interested in learning more about the breads of the world because I feel very ignorant in that space.
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:27.760
Um trying to do better and learn a lot more about what's out there because it's not just all these fluffy white loaves.
00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:29.840
In fact, that's probably the minority.
00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:33.039
There's a lot, a lot that I don't know, and I I would like to learn.
00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:35.280
So you've got two books coming out.
00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:36.719
Are there any other ways?
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:41.199
I I hope that you've seen a little bump in your your book sales just from the podcast.
00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:46.480
I know that quite a few people have have downloaded it or purchased it, and they really were excited to read it.
00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:51.280
So Leah had that great idea of starting a book club and and we wanted to start with your book.
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:55.599
So I'm just excited to read the next ones.
00:47:55.840 --> 00:48:02.639
And other than the books, is there any way that our listeners can find you, support you, learn from you?
00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:03.840
Where can we find you?
00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:16.719
So ericpallant.com will get you to my website that I recently had a real person and not a college sophomore turn into a website that I'm not embarrassed by.
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:20.079
This goes back to an earlier discussion.
00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:35.840
If I'm not, this is not a business venture of mine, and so I don't advertise it, but anybody who wants to uh purchase the starters, I do have a map, actually, that that's sort of fun of where I have shared starters.
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:37.039
It's a global map.
00:48:38.559 --> 00:48:54.880
So if you purchase one of these the three starters I have from me, you go on the map and you too can be baking with one of these starters that comes with the story, and you'll only be as good as it as you are as a baker.
00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:01.440
Okay, so they can go to your site, they can order your starters, they can support you in that way, they can follow you on Instagram.
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:11.920
Yeah, I don't do a lot on Instagram, but I it it's a it's a battle to not spend as much time as I I mean I I think it sucks my soul out of my body, but I have to do it.
00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:15.679
But if they're reading your book, they can tag you, and that's fun.
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:16.239
Right.
00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:22.400
And I also I read a lot of books and I publish reviews, very short reviews of all the books I read.
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:29.119
And so you can sign up for my if you go to my website, you sign up for my like every two weeks or three weeks, you'll get a thing in your email.
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:30.159
I just read this book.
00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:35.760
So the the the sourdough starter that's in the book is the one that you're selling on your site?
00:49:36.159 --> 00:49:41.679
So you can get that one, you can which is a whole whole wheat starter, but you can do whatever the hell you want with it once you get it.
00:49:42.400 --> 00:49:57.519
I have a uh white flower starter that's from Meatville, Pennsylvania, that's the one I made with the wild grapes, or my wife made with wild grapes, and and then the one that's the Russian rye bread starter that comes from the old Soviet Union in 1960.
00:49:57.840 --> 00:49:58.559
Awesome.
00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:10.880
And just to kind of circle back as we close out, as we said, your your starter is really only as old as quote unquote your last feed, because technically those microbes only live so long.
00:50:11.119 --> 00:50:11.440
Correct.
00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:19.920
But when you buy one of these starters, especially if you've read the book and listened to the podcast, now the web is just growing.
00:50:20.079 --> 00:50:26.800
We're we're all will be connected in a new way of reading the book, hearing the story, understanding the origin.
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:37.199
And what a beautiful way to enter the sourdough world if someone hasn't really taken the leap yet and feel connected to you and I and and the stories that you've told me.
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:40.400
When you get to the map, you'll be connected to people all over the world, right?
00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:46.000
Except for Antarctica, there are people baking with Cripple Creek Sourdough.
00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:47.920
Yeah, that's so cool.
00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:49.840
That's a great idea, too.
00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:51.360
I love that you have a map to show it.
00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:52.800
I'll definitely have to go tempting maps.
00:50:57.199 --> 00:51:05.280
He's sailed across the Pacific from California to Mexico to Polynesia, and he's been baking bread across the Pacific.
00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:11.679
And so now I've got little dots in Micronesia and Fiji and stuff like that where he's making bread.
00:51:11.760 --> 00:51:17.360
So what an incredible story, and it will just continue to live on, and what you've done is incredible.
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:19.840
And I'm very excited that you have new books coming out.
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:20.480
I can't wait to do that.
00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:22.239
I would love to talk to you about them when they come.
00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:22.960
Hell yeah.
00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:26.159
I will send you, I will send you copies.
00:51:26.719 --> 00:51:27.280
Fantastic.
00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:30.800
Okay, I'm gonna end the recording for us, but and then we can keep chit-chatting.
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:36.159
Thank you again to Eric for just sharing your time and your knowledge with us.
00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:38.880
And I love where that conversation went.
00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:43.119
I love getting to have these kinds of conversations on saving bread.
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:59.920
We talked about science last week with Tom Kakuza, and this week we're talking with Eric about the history of sourdough and how old is a starter, and what do we feel when we smell and taste and eat sourdough bread?
00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:04.000
And I love that we can have all of these conversations in one space together.
00:52:04.320 --> 00:52:07.360
We started this episode asking a very literal question.
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:10.079
How old is a sourdough starter?
00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:14.800
And I think we ended up with something honestly much more interesting.
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:26.639
The organisms themselves are constantly changing, but the story can keep moving from one person to another, another kitchen, another generation, and on to the next.
00:52:26.719 --> 00:52:34.400
And that that just feels like a great reason to keep making it and to keep making it with our own hands.
00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:37.119
I know many of you are missing Leah.
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:38.000
I keep getting questions.
00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:39.039
Where's Leah?
00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:47.280
Leah, thank you for having this incredible idea of doing the read-along together and suggesting the first book, and the listeners miss you.
00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:47.840
I promise.
00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:50.960
Leah is coming back for another rabbit hole episode.
00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:53.679
She and I, we are busy gals.
00:52:53.840 --> 00:52:57.599
We are doing the things, taking the kids to the places, right?
00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:00.719
Making the bread, literally and figuratively.
00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:06.079
So, um, you know, when we when we are back together, it'll be great.
00:53:06.239 --> 00:53:15.039
And we're going to have great conversations about yummy things that we're eating and our friendship and our children, and um, you know, she'll be back.
00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:17.760
So I'm so glad that you miss her though, because I do too.
00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:21.760
Although I do get to see her almost every day at pick up and drop off.
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:30.719
But don't worry, she is she's coming back, and there's going to be more um deep dive down the rabbit hole because I know you guys like to hear about what we're eating.
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:34.079
So again, if you're new to saving bread, I'm really glad you're here.
00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:37.199
And if this episode made you think of someone, send it to them.
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:43.679
You can help the show tremendously by following the podcast and leaving a rating or a review wherever you listen.
00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:49.599
And I'll put links to Eric, Sourdough Culture, and everything that we discussed in the show notes.
00:53:49.840 --> 00:54:01.920
So if you have a listener question too, you can just click on the link right in any of the show notes wherever you're listening to your podcast and send me a voice memo at any time, and you never know that might make its way onto the podcast.
00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:11.440
Until next week, keep baking, keep laughing, have fun, and I will talk to you all next week.
00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:17.360
Thank you for listening to the Saving Bread Podcast.
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:23.440
Music by Joshua from Dope.
00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:33.039
I'm Allie White, and as always, happy baking and long live real bread.