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(upbeat music)
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Welcome to replayable,
where we go into depth
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on our favorite tabletop games that
keep us coming back again and again.
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I'm the start player Todd, and
today I'm joined by David and Paul.
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For our 31st episode, we'll be walking
amongst the trees in Forest Shuffle.
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It was designed by Koch and
released by Lookout Games
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in 2023 with artwork by
Tony Lobe and Judith Pailla.
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Are you two ready for a Serratinal Saunter?
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- I pitched my tent and
I got out my binoculars.
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I'm up for some nature watching right now.
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- There you go.
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- I'm ready to pet the deer.
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(laughing)
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Forest Shuffle is a card
game where players compete to
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gather the most valuable trees,
then attract species to them.
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The goal is to create the best
ecosystem for flora and fauna.
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The inclusion of multi-use cards means
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that when you play a card, you pay for
its cost using more cards from your hand.
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Discarded cards go into a clearing and are
eligible to be retrieved by other players.
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When the clearing reaches 10 or
more cards, they are all removed.
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At the start of the
game, three winter cards
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are placed in the bottom
third of the draw pile.
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The game ends when the
third winter card has been drawn.
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Let's see here.
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Which one of you has taken a
walk in the forest the most recently?
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- Unfortunately, it's probably not me.
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I really miss the woods and
I've been too urban for too long.
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- Yeah, I mean, I go to a urban
forest, a nature trail every Sunday.
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Whoa, but it's surrounded
by freeways and buildings.
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(laughing)
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- And plenty of wildlife, probably.
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Sneaking in the corners.
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- Oh, yeah.
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- You get to start us off here.
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2023, if you have looked at
the games that were released,
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they're quite a few that have
received a lot of critical acclaim.
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I mean, this seems
like it was a banner year.
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I've worked on those one amongst many.
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What are some of your favorites
that were released last year
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and how do you think
forest shuffle stacks up?
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- Well, for me, my
favorite is for a shuffle.
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(laughing)
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It is my most played game from 2023.
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- Yeah, I have to also
shout out to Dune Imperium
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Uprising, Sky Team, and Great
Western Trail New Zealand.
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Those are also favorites of mine.
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- Mm-hmm.
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Yeah, I think Great Western Trail
New Zealand, more is to be seen.
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So I think that hasn't hit
the table for the last time.
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I think we'll be seeing
that quite a bit more.
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- Oh, I'd love to play again, yeah.
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- Yeah.
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Well, maybe started
a little earlier next time.
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(laughing)
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- Yeah, that was a painful
decision to play it through to the end.
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Last night.
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- Yeah, maybe we should
put some full disclosure
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is we're playing
this, we're last night,
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we played our game
night, Great Western Trail
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New Zealand, and we
went maybe one o'clock.
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- Right.
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- Right guys on the road home by one.
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- Yes.
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- A little after, yeah.
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- Yeah, and our days of staying
up all night are kind of behind us.
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So, I mean, this might be a little loopy.
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We'll see how this one goes tonight.
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- No, that's just, that's gonna
be pure quality content right there.
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- Yeah, yeah.
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- Well, look, of the games released in 2023,
at least you put together a list for us,
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which I think is just looking at it,
just a banner year almost for games.
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It's not letting up.
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We're getting year after
year of fantastic games.
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Of these games though,
I think Forest Shuffle
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is probably the most
OG game that I can see.
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So, the trend of modern games continues,
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but it's really happy to see
that some of these OG elements
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are kind of staying alive and
coming back at us at new fresh ways.
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- Well, Dave, how does it stack up
against, say, Earthborne Rangers?
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- Or Lorkana.
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- It's, well, Lorkana was also, I
wouldn't say an OG kind of game,
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but it's definitely an old
kind of game 'cause it's
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straight out of the 90s
collectible card game fad.
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But, I mean, stack up, Earthborne
Rangers is, it's not a new genre,
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and we'll talk about it more if
we ever get to it on this podcast,
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but it's expanding on
a relatively new genre.
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So, it's hard to even compare
'cause it's moving in such
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a different direction with
narrative and things like that.
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Or I'd be hard pressed to
compare them 'cause it's very much
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apples and oranges or
butterflies and mushrooms, I think.
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(laughing)
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Nice way to keep it on topic.
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Beyond that, you know, the White Castle,
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and I would say we have to get
to ride legacy that also came out.
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I mean, a lot of great
games, and Forest Shuffle
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manages to stand out
amongst such august company.
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A lot of it, I think,
has to do with that
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attractiveness of multi-use
cards and cards only.
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I mean, there's something elegant
and nostalgic about that format for me.
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Yeah, I can't put my finger on it.
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It's just a bit of druid
magic or something.
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(laughing)
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Well, I think in some ways, Todd
and I are saying the same thing.
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When I'm calling it OG,
you're calling it elegance,
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which is, I think, one
of the hallmarks of OG.
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When we look at these list of other games,
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I love doing Imperium and
our little players of Uprising
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look promising, but I wouldn't
call that an elegant game.
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It's fun for different reasons, but
Forest Shuffle has components
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straight out of games we
were playing 20 years ago,
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yet it doesn't feel like a
copycat or a rehash, really.
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They're almost kind of hidden in the game.
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Some specific elements that I
think I didn't see my first few plays,
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and once one of you
kind of illuminated it for me,
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I thought, oh, I can look at
this game in a whole new way,
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and I don't want to reveal that yet, but
we'll get to that as we talk about it more.
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Right.
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All right, how about continuing the
current trend of ecology-themed games?
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'Cause we've seen quite
a few of those recently, too.
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You know, as we move
away from colonial themes
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and spice trading themes
and some of these themes
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that were starting to get a
little tired in their own right,
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but also we were starting to see
kind of how they're problematic.
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Right.
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And so now we're getting
into anthropomorphized animals
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and a little more space
themes and things like that,
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and so the rise of the
nature-themed game makes sense
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because nobody's
offended by a beautiful forest.
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Yeah, you know, I gave
a shout out to Forest
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Shuffle back when we
did our Arknova podcast.
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And I think Forest
Shuffle takes it a step
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further in that it
doesn't have any plastic
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or components or
packaging, and from personal
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experience, I've played it
over a dozen times by hand,
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and it's still just as good
as the day I opened it.
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Yeah, we commented on that last night.
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I said, we were playing Paul's copy, and I
said, you're eventually gonna have to get
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these things sleeved because, you
know, they're gonna start to show where,
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and he goes, this is like
the 12th and 15th play.
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They're fine.
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They still feel brand new, and I
said, yeah, actually, that's true.
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They're holding up very well.
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They are, absolutely.
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All right, so let's talk about
some of the concepts of the game.
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Let's talk about the clearing.
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That's another one of
those features of this game
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that while I haven't seen it
done in this exact method
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or implementation, it
certainly feels familiar, right?
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As far as I'm gonna discard some cards,
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and then you have an opportunity
to benefit, perhaps, 'cause the
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thing I don't want may be the
exact card you were looking for.
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How do you like the mechanism of the
clearing and perhaps the timing issue of it?
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- Yeah, it's as old as
Majang or Rummy, right?
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Where part of the game is
picking up your opponent's discards.
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But one of the things that
makes the clearing special to me
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is that if you know your
opponent wants a card,
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you can time your discard
such that they can't get to it
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since the clearing is wiped
whenever it reaches 10, right?
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- That's exactly what I
was gonna say, is it may feel
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familiar because it's from the
1800s in a game called Rummy.
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- That's why we deal.
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- That's what we deal with.
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- We're that old, no.
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(all laughing)
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- Today it feels like it.
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But no, that idea where
I can't use this card,
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but I know you can,
so I can't safely discard
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it, it creates a nice
tension in the game.
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And I really like what Paul
was bringing up on that too,
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that idea of timing that discard
to get that wiped off of the board.
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I had a few interesting decisions on that
last night when we played because I was,
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what Paul and Greg were both going
for, what was the tree you were going for?
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- The horse chestnuts.
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- The horse chestnuts.
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And Greg was closer to me in turn order.
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So I knew, and I was holding
one, and I really wanted to discard it,
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but if I knew Greg's gonna
get that card and put it into play.
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And the same time,
Todd and I were competing
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on the Linden tree, as far as
who's gonna have the most.
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And I had a Linden tree, I was ready
to discard 'cause I felt like I had enough.
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But I needed to time
both of those were, I didn't
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want either of those to get
into your two guys' hands.
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And it made for an interesting tension as
I was playing through trying to accomplish
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what I wanna accomplish, but also put the
kabosh on what you're trying to accomplish.
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- Very true.
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Yeah, it reminds me of
some of the classic OG games
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that have strong left-right bindings
where you see someone doing something.
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And if you're sitting
immediately preceding
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them in turn order,
you start copying them
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because you get to scoop up on all the same
things and prevent them from getting any.
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- Right, in fact I think Greg
had a similar experience
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to that exact thing where
he saw what you were doing
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and recognized that he should have
been picking up those grids out of you.
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- Yeah, so I started the
game by playing a chestnut
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and then Greg's like,
oh, instead of actually
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discarding these, I'm just
gonna play 'em instead.
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- Right, right.
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- Well, you did all right,
but since he was sitting
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to your immediate
right-- - We'll get to that.
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- Yeah, but yeah, since he was sitting
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to your immediate right,
that was gonna hinder,
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I mean, you certainly
weren't gonna see any
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of them in the discarding
or in the clearing
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unless something popped up
from somebody playing a tree
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or Greg specifically playing
a tree or something like that.
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- Right.
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- But how many did you end
up getting, even with Greg
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actively trying to prevent you
from getting those chestnuts?
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How many did you get into play?
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- The two I started the game with.
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- Oh, and that was it?
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- Yeah.
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- Okay.
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- Yeah, and Dave, I remember
when you made that play
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and you got rid of the horse chestnut and
did you also get rid of the Linden tree?
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- That was later.
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- That was later?
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Well, on one of those, you also got rid
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of the last fire salamander that I was
waiting for, 'cause I already had two of them.
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And I remember I told you about--
- When he was in the clearing.
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- Yeah.
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- Yeah, well, he put it into the clearing,
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but then the clearing
got to 10 and got one.
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- I put it in the clearing,
but right, Dave saw that.
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- Did I?
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- Well, he said he
didn't, that was the thing.
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And I was like, I didn't.
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I was like, Dave, that was really well
timed 'cause, you know, I had two of those
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and that's the difference
between like 10 and 25
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points for the set, if
you can pick up the third.
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So it was a 15 point card for me.
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And Dave wiped the clearing,
unknowing that I was looking for.
233
00:10:41,321 --> 00:10:43,080
(laughing)
234
00:10:43,081 --> 00:10:45,880
- Even worse, my theme
of the night last night
235
00:10:45,881 --> 00:10:50,320
was to spoil you at every possible
turn, apparently unknowingly to me.
236
00:10:50,321 --> 00:10:52,440
- Yeah, the mission accomplished.
237
00:10:52,441 --> 00:10:55,800
Although, you know, you were playing
Linden trees, I was playing Linden bees.
238
00:10:55,801 --> 00:10:56,640
- Yeah.
239
00:10:56,641 --> 00:10:57,800
(laughing)
240
00:10:57,801 --> 00:11:00,285
- Well, but in some
ways, that's an element of
241
00:11:00,286 --> 00:11:02,440
the game I've been
grumbling about a little bit.
242
00:11:02,441 --> 00:11:05,560
I like keeping track of
a little bit of, you know,
243
00:11:05,561 --> 00:11:08,040
what you're doing and trying
to prevent you from doing that,
244
00:11:08,041 --> 00:11:10,440
but there's a lot that
other people are doing.
245
00:11:10,441 --> 00:11:13,960
So I had no idea that I
wiped that salamander for you.
246
00:11:13,961 --> 00:11:16,760
I mean, if I'd known, I
would have done it with Glee.
247
00:11:16,761 --> 00:11:17,784
- Right.
248
00:11:17,785 --> 00:11:22,400
(laughing) - But I was probably
playing into by giving people cards
249
00:11:22,401 --> 00:11:25,640
that helped them as much as I
was inadvertently disrupting them.
250
00:11:25,641 --> 00:11:30,080
And it's just, there's a lot going,
and this is in the multiplayer version.
251
00:11:30,081 --> 00:11:31,600
We were playing five last night,
252
00:11:31,601 --> 00:11:34,640
which pretty high player
count for this game, I think.
253
00:11:34,641 --> 00:11:35,960
- It's max.
254
00:11:35,961 --> 00:11:39,120
- So there's so many things
going on in other people's forests
255
00:11:39,121 --> 00:11:42,880
that it's very difficult to keep
track of what everybody's doing.
256
00:11:42,881 --> 00:11:46,280
- Yeah, and paying attention to it,
also just knowing what's possible.
257
00:11:46,281 --> 00:11:49,920
So there's definitely a
knowledge component to this game
258
00:11:49,921 --> 00:11:54,760
that far exceeds games that I would consider
to be like it, right, like in San Juan,
259
00:11:54,761 --> 00:11:57,600
you just need to know
that you have basically
260
00:11:57,601 --> 00:11:59,640
the three six buildings
that you can play,
261
00:11:59,641 --> 00:12:02,543
whether it's a city
hall, guild hall, or the
262
00:12:02,544 --> 00:12:04,800
triumphal arch, and how
those are constructed.
263
00:12:04,801 --> 00:12:07,880
But there are so many other
combos in Forest Chuffle
264
00:12:07,881 --> 00:12:11,080
that if there's a player
that knows what's out there
265
00:12:11,081 --> 00:12:14,400
and what's possible, they
definitely have a distinct advantage
266
00:12:14,401 --> 00:12:18,480
that I don't think is as easily
met because they're options.
267
00:12:18,481 --> 00:12:24,800
- I think it's pretty comparable to San
Juan as far as the knowledge benefit.
268
00:12:24,801 --> 00:12:26,240
There's definitely more cards,
269
00:12:26,241 --> 00:12:29,720
but in my opinion, a lot of the
combos are not that powerful,
270
00:12:29,721 --> 00:12:32,200
but there are a few that
are extremely powerful.
271
00:12:32,201 --> 00:12:33,240
- Yes, there are.
272
00:12:33,241 --> 00:12:35,920
- Well, I think I would
disagree a little bit on that
273
00:12:35,921 --> 00:12:38,478
because a key difference
between San Juan and Forest
274
00:12:38,479 --> 00:12:41,960
Chuffle for me is, and
San Juan, it's more of a race
275
00:12:41,961 --> 00:12:44,840
where I'm gonna be getting
good value out of my cards.
276
00:12:44,841 --> 00:12:47,529
And there's almost nothing
you can do that's gonna prevent
277
00:12:47,530 --> 00:12:50,000
me from getting X points
from this card that I play.
278
00:12:50,001 --> 00:12:53,040
Because you don't have to
worry about what you're discarding.
279
00:12:53,041 --> 00:12:57,400
- Right, well, I'm thinking in
the sense of the woodpecker,
280
00:12:57,401 --> 00:13:00,160
which scores based on if
nobody has more trees than you.
281
00:13:00,161 --> 00:13:01,920
- Oh, the comparative cards, yes.
282
00:13:01,921 --> 00:13:04,400
- Right, in San Juan,
there aren't any cards
283
00:13:04,401 --> 00:13:07,240
that I'm gonna play that may
be worth nothing at the end,
284
00:13:07,241 --> 00:13:10,040
without me knowing, like I
might play a six value card
285
00:13:10,041 --> 00:13:12,480
that's gonna have no value at
the end, but that's my own doing.
286
00:13:12,481 --> 00:13:16,800
But this idea of playing some
cards, maybe even doing well with it
287
00:13:16,801 --> 00:13:22,060
and somebody sneaking up on you with some
other way to outpace you in that element,
288
00:13:22,061 --> 00:13:25,920
and then you get nothing for
it, that I think is a little deflating.
289
00:13:25,921 --> 00:13:26,760
- Yeah, I agree.
290
00:13:26,761 --> 00:13:28,760
- And like the Linden
trees, it says right up front,
291
00:13:28,761 --> 00:13:32,620
it's worth one point or three points
if nobody else has more than you.
292
00:13:32,621 --> 00:13:35,380
So that one, you can see
where that trade off is gonna be.
293
00:13:35,381 --> 00:13:38,560
- Right, and I argue with
the others, you can see it too.
294
00:13:38,561 --> 00:13:42,680
And you call it deflating,
I call it invigorating.
295
00:13:42,681 --> 00:13:44,640
(laughing)
296
00:13:44,641 --> 00:13:47,360
- I think it's invigorating
once you know what to expect,
297
00:13:47,361 --> 00:13:51,480
but as you're still getting accustomed to
the game, I agree Dave, like it's deflating
298
00:13:51,481 --> 00:13:53,960
when I'm sitting over here
and I'm doing my combos,
299
00:13:53,961 --> 00:13:55,473
and I think I've got
a pretty good score
300
00:13:55,474 --> 00:13:58,120
going, and then it turns
out that Paul comes up
301
00:13:58,121 --> 00:14:03,480
with a combo that scored, what was it, 120
points between your wolves and your deer?
302
00:14:03,481 --> 00:14:06,000
- Oh yeah, I had six deer and two wolves,
303
00:14:06,001 --> 00:14:08,960
and it was like 114 just
from those eight cards.
304
00:14:08,961 --> 00:14:11,319
- Right, and Megan just
started laughing 'cause it was
305
00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,680
like what are the rest of
us even doing in this game?
306
00:14:14,681 --> 00:14:17,059
- That's right.
307
00:14:17,060 --> 00:14:19,760
(laughing) - Well the
element where Todd and I
308
00:14:19,761 --> 00:14:23,280
were competing for Linden
Trees, that I thought was a fun,
309
00:14:23,281 --> 00:14:25,040
I mean I wouldn't really
call it a cat and mouse game,
310
00:14:25,041 --> 00:14:28,000
but I was sitting two
players to your right.
311
00:14:28,001 --> 00:14:31,800
So I could kind of keep pace
with you playing Linden Trees.
312
00:14:31,801 --> 00:14:33,200
- You had a slight advantage, yeah.
313
00:14:33,201 --> 00:14:34,680
- Yeah, and I had a few in my hand,
314
00:14:34,681 --> 00:14:37,480
so at one point Todd asked me
how many Linden Trees you add,
315
00:14:37,481 --> 00:14:39,360
and my answer was always
gonna be one more than you,
316
00:14:39,361 --> 00:14:41,320
'cause if you play one,
I'll play another one.
317
00:14:41,321 --> 00:14:42,160
- Right.
318
00:14:42,161 --> 00:14:44,200
- What took me by
surprise is just I don't know
319
00:14:44,201 --> 00:14:46,520
what the deck well enough
is that bees count as trees,
320
00:14:46,521 --> 00:14:49,560
and that's the sort of photo
I've got from under you,
321
00:14:49,561 --> 00:14:52,160
saying that, I mean what
was my comment at the time?
322
00:14:52,161 --> 00:14:54,200
Is this supposed to make
me like the game more?
323
00:14:54,201 --> 00:14:55,040
(laughing)
324
00:14:55,041 --> 00:14:56,600
- It was exactly what it was.
325
00:14:56,601 --> 00:14:59,895
- It's this element,
this kind of gotcha
326
00:14:59,896 --> 00:15:02,920
surprise that familiarity
is totally gonna solve.
327
00:15:02,921 --> 00:15:04,400
- And that's what I'm saying, yeah.
328
00:15:04,401 --> 00:15:07,412
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's
a big enough deck where it's
329
00:15:07,413 --> 00:15:10,040
gonna take a few plays to
get that familiarity, like that.
330
00:15:10,041 --> 00:15:12,440
- It's a good demonic
though, bees count as trees.
331
00:15:12,441 --> 00:15:13,280
(laughing)
332
00:15:13,281 --> 00:15:15,000
- We'll never forget, will I?
333
00:15:15,001 --> 00:15:16,160
- No, no you won't.
334
00:15:16,161 --> 00:15:17,840
(laughing)
335
00:15:17,841 --> 00:15:21,138
All right, we talked about
the timing and the timing of
336
00:15:21,139 --> 00:15:24,520
the clearing as far as
being able to get rid of cards.
337
00:15:24,521 --> 00:15:28,760
How about the timing of the clearing
with respect to ending the game?
338
00:15:28,761 --> 00:15:30,120
- Oh, the winter cards?
339
00:15:30,121 --> 00:15:31,600
- Even at the beginning of the game,
340
00:15:31,601 --> 00:15:34,714
you could play a faster
game by always top
341
00:15:34,715 --> 00:15:36,560
decking instead of
drawing from the clearing.
342
00:15:36,561 --> 00:15:38,960
And that was something that
stood out to me even last night
343
00:15:38,961 --> 00:15:43,440
was like every time I draw two cards from
the clearing, I am prolonging this game.
344
00:15:43,441 --> 00:15:44,280
- Right.
345
00:15:44,281 --> 00:15:46,960
- And if those cards
really aren't adding value
346
00:15:46,961 --> 00:15:49,040
to my Tableau and
I'm just picking them up
347
00:15:49,041 --> 00:15:52,240
so that I can pay with them,
then I should just be top decking.
348
00:15:52,241 --> 00:15:56,600
- Well, it's the same
decision as Lost Cities.
349
00:15:56,601 --> 00:15:57,440
- Right.
350
00:15:57,441 --> 00:15:59,720
- Do you feel like
you're in a position to win
351
00:15:59,721 --> 00:16:02,320
if the game is extended
or do you feel like
352
00:16:02,321 --> 00:16:04,720
that's your opponent and
so you have to hurry it up?
353
00:16:04,721 --> 00:16:07,360
It really comes to a head when
you play this game to player.
354
00:16:07,361 --> 00:16:08,200
- Right.
355
00:16:08,201 --> 00:16:10,040
And I feel like one of you
should always be pushing.
356
00:16:10,041 --> 00:16:11,480
It's a little bit like
San Juan that way too,
357
00:16:11,481 --> 00:16:13,800
like somebody should be
pushing the game clock.
358
00:16:13,801 --> 00:16:14,760
And one's in the lead.
359
00:16:14,761 --> 00:16:15,600
- Right.
360
00:16:15,601 --> 00:16:19,280
Whoever's winning, basically, or
whoever needs the game to be shorter.
361
00:16:19,281 --> 00:16:20,120
- Right.
362
00:16:20,121 --> 00:16:21,400
- The race for the galaxy is the same way.
363
00:16:21,401 --> 00:16:24,200
One player wants the game to
go quicker than another player.
364
00:16:24,201 --> 00:16:25,040
- Right.
365
00:16:25,041 --> 00:16:29,720
And those positions may switch and do shift
many times during the course of the game.
366
00:16:29,721 --> 00:16:33,080
So how do you like that
inclusion for a shuffle?
367
00:16:33,081 --> 00:16:34,320
- I love the clearing.
368
00:16:34,321 --> 00:16:38,760
I think that's a big part of what
makes the game enjoyable for me.
369
00:16:38,761 --> 00:16:39,600
- Yeah, I agree.
370
00:16:39,601 --> 00:16:40,480
- It makes it totally wonderful.
371
00:16:40,481 --> 00:16:42,800
I love variable game lengths.
372
00:16:42,801 --> 00:16:45,920
We're player driven game
lengths where a player can put
373
00:16:45,921 --> 00:16:48,840
their foot on the gas or put their foot
on the brakes or something like that.
374
00:16:48,841 --> 00:16:52,440
I really enjoy that being a game,
especially introduced to that,
375
00:16:52,441 --> 00:16:56,480
a push your luck element where we're on
borrowed time, where this game's gonna,
376
00:16:56,481 --> 00:16:58,600
I don't know if I'm gonna
get another turn or not.
377
00:16:58,601 --> 00:17:02,240
That's a really juicy,
interesting decision space
378
00:17:02,241 --> 00:17:04,440
at the end of this game
when you're in that position.
379
00:17:04,441 --> 00:17:05,280
- Well, right.
380
00:17:05,281 --> 00:17:07,840
Because like in Lost Cities, I'm
sure we've done the thing, right,
381
00:17:07,841 --> 00:17:10,123
where you take the bottom
five cards and you set them and
382
00:17:10,124 --> 00:17:12,880
then you take the next five
and you set them crosswise.
383
00:17:12,881 --> 00:17:14,840
So it's like a visible game timer.
384
00:17:14,841 --> 00:17:18,240
You know how many cards are
remaining in the deck in Lost Cities.
385
00:17:18,241 --> 00:17:20,560
And then the game is going to
end when you reach the bottom.
386
00:17:20,561 --> 00:17:24,000
But this, you don't know when that
third winner card's gonna show up.
387
00:17:24,001 --> 00:17:28,080
You think if the game is better or worse
for that unknown ending on the timer?
388
00:17:28,081 --> 00:17:29,760
- For me, it's absolutely better.
389
00:17:29,761 --> 00:17:30,600
- Yeah.
390
00:17:30,601 --> 00:17:33,616
- Because if it is known,
then people are gonna start
391
00:17:33,617 --> 00:17:37,840
min-maxing and making
calculation after calculation,
392
00:17:37,841 --> 00:17:41,200
after analysis paralysis
to extend the game length.
393
00:17:41,201 --> 00:17:44,840
The variable ending keeps
it choppy and keeps it quick.
394
00:17:44,841 --> 00:17:47,865
- Yeah, I agree 100% on
that, where it starts to become
395
00:17:47,866 --> 00:17:50,440
calculable as to can I
squeeze out one more point?
396
00:17:50,441 --> 00:17:52,680
Can I rob you of one more point?
397
00:17:52,681 --> 00:17:56,520
And that's really gonna slow it down
like the end of an NBA basketball game.
398
00:17:56,521 --> 00:17:59,074
That part of the game,
it's similar to me to a game
399
00:17:59,075 --> 00:18:02,320
like Alhambra that wins
that last card gonna show up.
400
00:18:02,321 --> 00:18:03,920
How much more can I squeeze out?
401
00:18:03,921 --> 00:18:06,377
Because you've got that card
hidden somewhere at the lower
402
00:18:06,378 --> 00:18:09,440
portion of the deck that's
gonna jump at you by surprise.
403
00:18:09,441 --> 00:18:12,414
- Yeah, not last night's
game, but the one we played
404
00:18:12,415 --> 00:18:15,680
two weeks ago, we hit the
first two winter cards fast.
405
00:18:15,681 --> 00:18:20,320
And then the last one was in the last, I
don't know, five or six cards of the deck.
406
00:18:20,321 --> 00:18:24,600
So we had a long run of thinking
the game could end at any moment.
407
00:18:24,601 --> 00:18:26,280
- And being on pins and needles, yeah.
408
00:18:26,281 --> 00:18:27,480
- Am I gonna be able to draw again?
409
00:18:27,481 --> 00:18:29,480
Does it make sense for me to even try?
410
00:18:29,481 --> 00:18:31,440
And then the game kept going.
411
00:18:31,441 --> 00:18:34,600
It was great and it was also
agonizing at the same time.
412
00:18:34,601 --> 00:18:36,480
- Especially because I
don't know about you guys,
413
00:18:36,481 --> 00:18:41,160
but I was constantly trying to
get down to zero or one card.
414
00:18:41,161 --> 00:18:43,784
So I didn't feel like I
had held any points
415
00:18:43,785 --> 00:18:46,040
back, but the game
just kept going, right?
416
00:18:46,041 --> 00:18:49,160
- Yeah, you put it all out there.
417
00:18:49,161 --> 00:18:50,760
That happened to me
actually last night as well.
418
00:18:50,761 --> 00:18:53,000
I put it all out there and I
think this game needs to end
419
00:18:53,001 --> 00:18:56,880
because I need a turn to draw cards
and then a turn to play them again.
420
00:18:56,881 --> 00:18:58,760
Like I don't know if
I'm gonna get two turns.
421
00:18:58,761 --> 00:19:00,040
- Right. - So I, yeah.
422
00:19:00,041 --> 00:19:02,080
Ticket to ride does that
to you sometimes too,
423
00:19:02,081 --> 00:19:03,744
or right at the end,
like I don't have enough
424
00:19:03,745 --> 00:19:05,360
cards to play right
now, but if I draw them,
425
00:19:05,361 --> 00:19:08,160
I'm not gonna get another
play of putting drains out there.
426
00:19:08,161 --> 00:19:10,360
- Right.
Then it becomes a function of keeping track
427
00:19:10,361 --> 00:19:12,280
of how many cards everybody
else has in their hand,
428
00:19:12,281 --> 00:19:16,000
which works better in the
city versions of Ticket to Ride
429
00:19:16,001 --> 00:19:18,087
because you tend not
to hoard cards as much
430
00:19:18,088 --> 00:19:21,640
as you do in the full
versions of the games.
431
00:19:21,641 --> 00:19:23,640
Oh, you've got 12 cards
in your hand, you know?
432
00:19:23,641 --> 00:19:27,280
That doesn't happen much in the
like Ticket to Ride, New York or London.
433
00:19:27,281 --> 00:19:28,360
- So I do have a question for you guys.
434
00:19:28,361 --> 00:19:30,520
So in Ticket to Ride,
when I get to the end,
435
00:19:30,521 --> 00:19:32,640
if I'm holding a hand of 10
cards or something like that,
436
00:19:32,641 --> 00:19:36,680
I feel like I've very inefficiently
played to the end of the game here.
437
00:19:36,681 --> 00:19:38,920
Do you feel that way or
is that happening to you
438
00:19:38,921 --> 00:19:42,240
sometimes in Forest Shuffle where you get
to the end and you're holding six cards?
439
00:19:42,241 --> 00:19:45,480
You think, well, I really kind of
overshot my finished line here.
440
00:19:45,481 --> 00:19:48,082
- I mean, it happens to
me a lot, but I don't feel that
441
00:19:48,083 --> 00:19:51,520
way because I know that the
end game was basically random.
442
00:19:51,521 --> 00:19:52,720
Could have happened anytime.
443
00:19:52,721 --> 00:19:54,746
- Well, when you're
getting in that borrowed
444
00:19:54,747 --> 00:19:57,200
time of the third winter
is gonna show up.
445
00:19:57,201 --> 00:19:59,160
I mean, you can't plan three turns ahead.
446
00:19:59,161 --> 00:20:01,440
You can maybe plan a turn and a half ahead.
447
00:20:01,441 --> 00:20:03,120
So somewhere between one and two.
448
00:20:03,121 --> 00:20:07,000
- So it's really interesting because
I've played the game on BGA.
449
00:20:07,001 --> 00:20:10,880
I was in a tournament and
there was a very heated game
450
00:20:10,881 --> 00:20:13,033
where one of the
things I actually don't like
451
00:20:13,034 --> 00:20:16,400
on BGA is it allows you
to turn on live scoring.
452
00:20:16,401 --> 00:20:20,240
So BGA will tell you what
everybody's score is second by second.
453
00:20:20,241 --> 00:20:23,100
And I realized that even
though two winter cards
454
00:20:23,101 --> 00:20:28,720
were revealed, there was no way I was
gonna retake the lead in one or two turns.
455
00:20:28,721 --> 00:20:32,360
So I instead had to just
pray that the game continued
456
00:20:32,361 --> 00:20:35,040
until the last four or
five cards in the deck
457
00:20:35,041 --> 00:20:38,920
and strategically find some
new combos to overtake the lead.
458
00:20:38,921 --> 00:20:41,264
And it actually worked
out for me and the winter
459
00:20:41,265 --> 00:20:43,940
card was in fact the
very last card of the deck.
460
00:20:43,941 --> 00:20:44,920
- Oh wow, that game.
461
00:20:44,921 --> 00:20:45,760
- That's interesting.
462
00:20:45,761 --> 00:20:46,600
I like that.
463
00:20:46,601 --> 00:20:49,560
So you're almost in tilt mode
where you have to go big
464
00:20:49,561 --> 00:20:53,840
and if you get caught before you're ready,
oh well, you were gonna lose anyways.
465
00:20:53,841 --> 00:20:56,000
But if it shows up late
and you pull this off,
466
00:20:56,001 --> 00:20:57,560
then you'll be able
to overtake the leader.
467
00:20:57,561 --> 00:20:58,800
- That's what happened, yeah.
468
00:20:58,801 --> 00:20:59,640
- Wow.
469
00:20:59,641 --> 00:21:03,960
So I was holding a raccoon in my
hand when the game ended last night.
470
00:21:03,961 --> 00:21:07,920
And the plan was when I
thought it was getting ready to end,
471
00:21:07,921 --> 00:21:10,080
have enough cards in my
hand to make it worthwhile,
472
00:21:10,081 --> 00:21:13,120
but the raccoon allows
you to place all of the cards
473
00:21:13,121 --> 00:21:16,520
in your hand, any number of
cards in your hand, into your cave.
474
00:21:16,521 --> 00:21:21,440
And so it would have wiped my hand,
but if you think the game's gonna end soon,
475
00:21:21,441 --> 00:21:24,440
then it's not a bad way to
get extra points if you're--
476
00:21:24,441 --> 00:21:26,840
- Well, more importantly,
the raccoon replaces
477
00:21:26,841 --> 00:21:29,240
every card you put in your
cave with a draw from the deck.
478
00:21:29,241 --> 00:21:32,320
So it's gonna make that
winter happen too sweet.
479
00:21:32,321 --> 00:21:33,160
(laughs)
480
00:21:33,161 --> 00:21:36,560
- Yeah, so like my last turn as it turned
out, I should have played the raccoon
481
00:21:36,561 --> 00:21:38,600
'cause I could have hastened
the ending of the game.
482
00:21:38,601 --> 00:21:39,440
- Yes.
483
00:21:39,441 --> 00:21:41,440
- At least increase
the chances of it, yeah.
484
00:21:41,441 --> 00:21:44,520
- Yeah, I really love the
composition of these cards.
485
00:21:44,521 --> 00:21:48,120
Trees are an entire card, and
then you've got the split cards, right?
486
00:21:48,121 --> 00:21:49,000
Either left, right.
487
00:21:49,001 --> 00:21:52,880
And then the other side is gonna be hidden
behind the tree that you attach it to.
488
00:21:52,881 --> 00:21:55,040
And same thing with the
ones that are split, top, bottom.
489
00:21:55,041 --> 00:21:59,560
I think it's an ingenious mechanism,
and I also noticed that a lot of times
490
00:21:59,561 --> 00:22:03,886
there will be a wolf that
wants to eat the European
491
00:22:03,887 --> 00:22:06,000
hairs or a fox that wants
the European hairs,
492
00:22:06,001 --> 00:22:08,760
and there's a European hair
on the other half of the card.
493
00:22:08,761 --> 00:22:09,600
- Yep, right.
494
00:22:09,601 --> 00:22:10,440
(laughs)
495
00:22:10,441 --> 00:22:14,920
- And the same thing with bats, and I
think there's a bug that gives you a bonus
496
00:22:14,921 --> 00:22:16,800
depending on the number
of unique bats you have.
497
00:22:16,801 --> 00:22:18,520
But there's a bat on the same card,
498
00:22:18,521 --> 00:22:20,760
and I think it's interesting
the way that they make it
499
00:22:20,761 --> 00:22:24,720
agonizing that the thing you want to
collect is the thing you have to cover up.
500
00:22:24,721 --> 00:22:27,120
- Yeah, I think you mean the door mouse
501
00:22:27,121 --> 00:22:29,560
that's worth 15 points if
it's in the same tree as a bat.
502
00:22:29,561 --> 00:22:31,160
It's always paired with a bat.
503
00:22:31,161 --> 00:22:32,280
- Right, right.
504
00:22:32,281 --> 00:22:34,840
- Well, and that just plays
into hand management.
505
00:22:34,841 --> 00:22:38,718
So my first game, I think I
played every card with a hope
506
00:22:38,719 --> 00:22:41,520
and a dream, and that is
not the way to play this game,
507
00:22:41,521 --> 00:22:45,240
is to play a fox and hope
I draw some hairs later.
508
00:22:45,241 --> 00:22:46,720
It's like lost cities.
509
00:22:46,721 --> 00:22:50,370
If I think of every tree or
everything that goes on that tree
510
00:22:50,371 --> 00:22:53,920
as a new expedition, I'm gonna
wait until I build up in my hand.
511
00:22:53,921 --> 00:22:56,240
So I see, can I support this expedition?
512
00:22:56,241 --> 00:23:00,280
I'm not gonna spend all this money
on, I'll say the fox and the hairs.
513
00:23:00,281 --> 00:23:01,680
I'm not gonna spend
all this money on the fox,
514
00:23:01,681 --> 00:23:03,800
so I'm not gonna get
any hairs or vice versa.
515
00:23:03,801 --> 00:23:07,240
And that one's interesting too, because
you're better off playing the hairs first,
516
00:23:07,241 --> 00:23:09,600
because then when you play the
fox, you get to draw some cards.
517
00:23:09,601 --> 00:23:12,080
So even those start to
interact with each other
518
00:23:12,081 --> 00:23:14,240
as to which one I'm
gonna get out there first.
519
00:23:14,241 --> 00:23:16,800
And you can only hold
10 cards max in your hand,
520
00:23:16,801 --> 00:23:19,200
which is a frustrating
little thing going on.
521
00:23:19,201 --> 00:23:21,280
- Limitation. - I love that, yeah.
522
00:23:21,281 --> 00:23:25,280
And I agree to me, the pairing
of left, right and top, bottom,
523
00:23:25,281 --> 00:23:30,920
really add even more to the overhead
required to play this game well, yeah.
524
00:23:30,921 --> 00:23:34,840
- Yeah, at least being able to see the
combinations that you're gonna try to set up.
525
00:23:34,841 --> 00:23:37,920
Do you have a good way of organizing
your hand that you don't forget?
526
00:23:37,921 --> 00:23:40,040
'Cause I mean, there have
been times where I looked at man
527
00:23:40,041 --> 00:23:42,040
and I thought, okay, I'm
gonna play this a certain way.
528
00:23:42,041 --> 00:23:45,960
And then it comes my turn and I forgot that
that was the combination I was going for.
529
00:23:45,961 --> 00:23:49,400
And I almost discarded a key
card for it to pay for something.
530
00:23:49,401 --> 00:23:50,480
And I was like, oh, wait, no, no.
531
00:23:50,481 --> 00:23:51,680
I can't get rid of that card.
532
00:23:51,681 --> 00:23:54,880
I need to save that card
because it has whatever on it.
533
00:23:54,881 --> 00:23:58,840
It has a hair or it has a fox or it
has a wolf, whatever the case we be.
534
00:23:58,841 --> 00:24:02,080
- Yeah, personally, I put
the cards I wanna play
535
00:24:02,081 --> 00:24:06,440
closest to my face and the cards I
wanna discard closest to my hand.
536
00:24:06,441 --> 00:24:07,280
- Okay.
537
00:24:07,281 --> 00:24:11,120
- It's gin, Rummy, you know,
sets your working on cards
538
00:24:11,121 --> 00:24:13,880
that you don't wanna discard
because your neighbor wants them
539
00:24:13,881 --> 00:24:17,160
or it's same kind of thing, where
you have different places in your hand.
540
00:24:17,161 --> 00:24:21,840
I actually, last night at one point, I
had so many different things to consider.
541
00:24:21,841 --> 00:24:24,840
Cards I wanna discard,
cards I wanna discard but can't,
542
00:24:24,841 --> 00:24:28,640
cards I can play, cards I might
play, cards I definitely won't play.
543
00:24:28,641 --> 00:24:30,740
And so I started just
laying them out in little pot,
544
00:24:30,741 --> 00:24:33,320
just to get like four
little piles in front of you.
545
00:24:33,321 --> 00:24:34,720
Which is how my children play Rummy.
546
00:24:34,721 --> 00:24:36,000
You know, it's like, in my heart,
547
00:24:36,001 --> 00:24:38,760
those are my diamonds,
and I figured it works for them.
548
00:24:38,761 --> 00:24:40,320
You know, and then I
would pick them all back up
549
00:24:40,321 --> 00:24:43,880
and put them in order, but I just had
to take a page out of my kid's playbook.
550
00:24:43,881 --> 00:24:47,520
(laughing) Got it.
551
00:24:47,521 --> 00:24:49,440
So is there engine building?
552
00:24:49,441 --> 00:24:50,400
Absolutely.
553
00:24:50,401 --> 00:24:52,520
Yeah, this game is all about combos.
554
00:24:52,521 --> 00:24:55,000
Well, I don't think
combos in engine building
555
00:24:55,001 --> 00:24:56,840
are the same thing, is what
I mean by engine building
556
00:24:56,841 --> 00:25:00,560
is in the beginning of the game, are
you setting up some sort of economy?
557
00:25:00,561 --> 00:25:01,400
Hmm.
558
00:25:01,401 --> 00:25:03,160
Or do you just sometimes luck into it?
559
00:25:03,161 --> 00:25:04,480
I don't think you luck into it.
560
00:25:04,481 --> 00:25:06,760
So the combos I'm thinking of are not just
561
00:25:06,761 --> 00:25:10,160
two or three card combos, they're
like eight or nine card combos.
562
00:25:10,161 --> 00:25:11,000
Right.
563
00:25:11,001 --> 00:25:15,280
And once you see three
of that larger meta combo,
564
00:25:15,281 --> 00:25:19,560
I prefer to just dig in and try to
get as many of those as I can.
565
00:25:19,561 --> 00:25:20,520
Sure, right here.
566
00:25:20,521 --> 00:25:23,000
So you're not differentiating
between early game
567
00:25:23,001 --> 00:25:26,160
economy cards and mid
to late game VP cards.
568
00:25:26,161 --> 00:25:30,560
The only differentiation I
have is the mushrooms.
569
00:25:30,561 --> 00:25:31,400
Yeah.
570
00:25:31,401 --> 00:25:32,640
I will never play a mushroom late.
571
00:25:32,641 --> 00:25:34,000
Right, that makes sense.
572
00:25:34,001 --> 00:25:35,480
You don't have enough time to recoup.
573
00:25:35,481 --> 00:25:39,040
The value of the tempo
that you sacrifice to play it.
574
00:25:39,041 --> 00:25:39,880
Exactly.
575
00:25:39,881 --> 00:25:43,240
Going back to the clearing,
have you drafted four colors
576
00:25:43,241 --> 00:25:45,319
specifically so that
you can invoke the
577
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,400
binocular ability on a
card that you're holding?
578
00:25:47,401 --> 00:25:49,800
When it's taken another turn, absolutely.
579
00:25:49,801 --> 00:25:50,320
Hmm.
580
00:25:50,321 --> 00:25:50,720
OK.
581
00:25:50,721 --> 00:25:51,240
Yeah.
582
00:25:51,241 --> 00:25:54,360
Is that the only one that's worth
going after or is taking another turn?
583
00:25:54,361 --> 00:25:56,800
I think it's the most important one.
584
00:25:56,801 --> 00:26:00,040
But if I'm OK with extending
the game like we talked about,
585
00:26:00,041 --> 00:26:02,840
then I'll try to activate as
many binoculars as I can.
586
00:26:02,841 --> 00:26:05,400
The problem, though, is
that with the 10 card limit,
587
00:26:05,401 --> 00:26:08,560
I usually have four or
five cards I want to play.
588
00:26:08,561 --> 00:26:11,880
So I've only got room in
my hand for five or six cards.
589
00:26:11,881 --> 00:26:14,080
I can discard to put those out.
590
00:26:14,081 --> 00:26:18,240
Well, I may be seeing part of the reason
I've been doing so poorly in this game.
591
00:26:18,241 --> 00:26:22,040
But I hadn't thought
about that idea of drafting
592
00:26:22,041 --> 00:26:24,269
because they're
multi-use cards, of drafting
593
00:26:24,270 --> 00:26:26,840
cards specifically to
be used as payment.
594
00:26:26,841 --> 00:26:27,720
Absolutely.
595
00:26:27,721 --> 00:26:31,240
Usually, I'm trying to only
draft cards that I can use
596
00:26:31,241 --> 00:26:34,440
and then cards that don't quite
fit get defaulted to payment.
597
00:26:34,441 --> 00:26:37,040
But yeah, if there's a couple of maple tree
598
00:26:37,041 --> 00:26:41,240
icons sitting out there and I'm going to be
playing the maple tree or whatever it is,
599
00:26:41,241 --> 00:26:43,080
then I'm just looking
to pick up more cards.
600
00:26:43,081 --> 00:26:45,480
I've got to pay something
for the tree, I might as well.
601
00:26:45,481 --> 00:26:48,520
Because something, you
know, I have hesitation with that
602
00:26:48,521 --> 00:26:50,760
because I'm thinking
of, say, it's an extra turn,
603
00:26:50,761 --> 00:26:52,760
which like Paul was saying,
would be the most strongest,
604
00:26:52,761 --> 00:26:55,680
I'm spending a turn in order
to get an extra turn later.
605
00:26:55,681 --> 00:26:57,760
But I think, is that really
giving me any tempo?
606
00:26:57,761 --> 00:26:59,720
It goes with the hand management.
607
00:26:59,721 --> 00:27:01,880
It's allowing you to keep
the cards you want to play.
608
00:27:01,881 --> 00:27:02,560
Right.
609
00:27:02,561 --> 00:27:07,120
And even more, if the cards
you're using to gain that extra turn
610
00:27:07,121 --> 00:27:08,896
are ones you want to
play later, you can pick
611
00:27:08,897 --> 00:27:10,960
them right back up
again with that extra turn.
612
00:27:10,961 --> 00:27:12,920
Well, yeah, Todd pulled that off.
613
00:27:12,921 --> 00:27:13,920
I'm sure you did too.
614
00:27:13,921 --> 00:27:16,840
And, you know, a couple of
times last night where we put these
615
00:27:16,841 --> 00:27:19,020
juicy cards out in the
clearing and, oh, I get
616
00:27:19,021 --> 00:27:20,960
another turn, I'll just
take them right back.
617
00:27:20,961 --> 00:27:21,440
Right.
618
00:27:21,441 --> 00:27:24,160
And in one of those, I didn't
even need to discard the juicy card.
619
00:27:24,161 --> 00:27:27,480
I could have picked up a blind one
off the top of the deck and hung onto it.
620
00:27:27,481 --> 00:27:29,440
And I was doing that for color, that one.
621
00:27:29,441 --> 00:27:30,720
What about point scaling?
622
00:27:30,721 --> 00:27:32,960
So as the game draws near its conclusion,
623
00:27:32,961 --> 00:27:36,360
you should be either adding
to your existing power combos
624
00:27:36,361 --> 00:27:38,938
if you have them, or
hopefully finding the last
625
00:27:38,939 --> 00:27:41,280
card in a butterfly set,
something like that.
626
00:27:41,281 --> 00:27:44,000
Is there any rule of thumb that
when you think it's a last turn,
627
00:27:44,001 --> 00:27:46,392
you should be getting
at least, I don't know,
628
00:27:46,393 --> 00:27:48,840
three to five points for
a card that you play?
629
00:27:48,841 --> 00:27:50,520
Can you plan that specifically?
630
00:27:50,521 --> 00:27:52,760
I feel like when you're
getting in that borrowed time,
631
00:27:52,761 --> 00:27:56,080
each turn is what's the
max I can do right now.
632
00:27:56,081 --> 00:27:57,960
Because this could be my last.
633
00:27:57,961 --> 00:28:03,120
Yeah, to me, it really matters whether
or not I know my opponent's score.
634
00:28:03,121 --> 00:28:07,600
When we're playing face to face, I'm
not going to care what your score is.
635
00:28:07,601 --> 00:28:09,840
I'm just trying to play what's best for me.
636
00:28:09,841 --> 00:28:13,760
Well, you don't have to,
based on your score last night.
637
00:28:13,761 --> 00:28:17,680
When you have three times the
score of the person in second place.
638
00:28:17,681 --> 00:28:20,720
Like I said, in my story
about my online game,
639
00:28:20,721 --> 00:28:25,520
if I know the opponent's score, then, yeah,
sometimes it's just like, OK, I'm going
640
00:28:25,521 --> 00:28:27,135
to have to have three
turns of not scoring
641
00:28:27,136 --> 00:28:30,400
any points, so I can
score big with a combo.
642
00:28:30,401 --> 00:28:33,040
I would think in general,
though, the big combos,
643
00:28:33,041 --> 00:28:36,400
like the wolf and the deers,
or the fox and the hairs,
644
00:28:36,401 --> 00:28:39,400
those kinds of things, I think
those should have been planned
645
00:28:39,401 --> 00:28:43,000
out and executed by the time
you're getting into the bonus time.
646
00:28:43,001 --> 00:28:44,280
It can be a big game.
647
00:28:44,281 --> 00:28:47,560
If you're looking to top deck
a wolf, you might get lucky,
648
00:28:47,561 --> 00:28:49,640
but I don't think it's supposed
to be that kind of game.
649
00:28:49,641 --> 00:28:51,960
Yeah, I tell you what, last night's game,
650
00:28:51,961 --> 00:28:55,240
I got real frustrated
in that I played a card.
651
00:28:55,241 --> 00:28:59,760
I forget what kind of card it was, but it
allowed me to play an animal for free.
652
00:28:59,761 --> 00:29:01,040
Probably the badger.
653
00:29:01,041 --> 00:29:03,880
And the foxes are a
little expensive, right?
654
00:29:03,881 --> 00:29:06,520
As are the wolves, so I put a fox out there
655
00:29:06,521 --> 00:29:10,168
and I had one hair,
one additional hair in my
656
00:29:10,169 --> 00:29:11,920
hand, and I thought,
oh, this would be great.
657
00:29:11,921 --> 00:29:13,280
I'll go ahead and have lots of hairs.
658
00:29:13,281 --> 00:29:15,720
I think I had five of
them in the last game.
659
00:29:15,721 --> 00:29:17,200
And we just didn't see him.
660
00:29:17,201 --> 00:29:18,360
People were burying him.
661
00:29:18,361 --> 00:29:20,240
People were hiding him behind trees.
662
00:29:20,241 --> 00:29:23,280
There just were not a lot
of hairs in last night's game
663
00:29:23,281 --> 00:29:25,040
that got played, and
so that was one of those
664
00:29:25,041 --> 00:29:28,120
where I had invested in
the fox early, assuming
665
00:29:28,121 --> 00:29:30,600
I would see hairs,
but it didn't happen.
666
00:29:30,601 --> 00:29:32,000
Well, I was too, you're right.
667
00:29:32,001 --> 00:29:35,600
And so I was actively
trying to scoop up hairs
668
00:29:35,601 --> 00:29:38,160
or making sure they
just because I was also,
669
00:29:38,161 --> 00:29:40,280
I started the game
with a fox and a hair.
670
00:29:40,281 --> 00:29:42,760
So I knew I was fishing
for as many as I could get.
671
00:29:42,761 --> 00:29:43,600
Oh, okay.
672
00:29:43,601 --> 00:29:44,520
Interesting.
673
00:29:44,521 --> 00:29:47,160
I also had two hairs in my starting hand,
674
00:29:47,161 --> 00:29:50,800
but I just figured since it's a five player
game, they're not gonna be worthwhile.
675
00:29:50,801 --> 00:29:52,200
And you were right.
676
00:29:52,201 --> 00:29:55,840
But I'm one of the people who hid them
behind my trees by playing the other side.
677
00:29:55,841 --> 00:29:57,200
Yes, right.
678
00:29:57,201 --> 00:29:59,160
(laughing)
679
00:29:59,161 --> 00:30:01,560
Well, it was a good
strategy for you to follow.
680
00:30:01,561 --> 00:30:04,005
You know, we talked
about the cave a little
681
00:30:04,006 --> 00:30:06,680
bit, and honestly, I
don't think it's that good.
682
00:30:06,681 --> 00:30:10,160
It seems very weak, except
for very low scoring games.
683
00:30:10,161 --> 00:30:15,760
But I did notice when we were researching
for this podcast that the expansion
684
00:30:15,761 --> 00:30:20,400
does greatly increase the cave effectiveness
by having animals like vultures
685
00:30:20,401 --> 00:30:22,880
that give you extra
points for your cave cards.
686
00:30:22,881 --> 00:30:23,720
Ah!
687
00:30:23,721 --> 00:30:25,280
And I think that's interesting.
688
00:30:25,281 --> 00:30:26,120
Yeah.
689
00:30:26,121 --> 00:30:28,800
One card for me was worth
12th points in the cave, right?
690
00:30:28,801 --> 00:30:29,640
I had a bear.
691
00:30:29,641 --> 00:30:30,480
Bear, yeah.
692
00:30:30,481 --> 00:30:32,840
I've been holding onto
it just so I could time it.
693
00:30:32,841 --> 00:30:34,720
When it came around
the corner of Past Meghan,
694
00:30:34,721 --> 00:30:37,720
if there was a juicy clearing out there,
that was gonna worth a ton of points.
695
00:30:37,721 --> 00:30:39,280
Now's the time to play the bear.
696
00:30:39,281 --> 00:30:40,800
And that part worked out well.
697
00:30:40,801 --> 00:30:45,320
It seems as it is now in the base game,
the use of the cave is highly situational.
698
00:30:45,321 --> 00:30:47,657
If you get the opportunity
to jump on it, but you're
699
00:30:47,658 --> 00:30:49,880
not gonna necessarily
build your game around it.
700
00:30:49,881 --> 00:30:50,720
Right.
701
00:30:50,721 --> 00:30:55,480
Same with the most often forgotten
rule, at least amongst our group.
702
00:30:55,481 --> 00:30:56,840
(laughing)
703
00:30:56,841 --> 00:30:58,720
Absolutely, right?
704
00:30:58,721 --> 00:31:01,280
And that's the ability to
play a card is a sapling.
705
00:31:01,281 --> 00:31:03,320
If you need a tree and
you don't have a tree.
706
00:31:03,321 --> 00:31:04,160
Oh yeah.
707
00:31:04,161 --> 00:31:05,240
(laughing)
708
00:31:05,241 --> 00:31:07,440
So, you know, I think
that's especially important
709
00:31:07,441 --> 00:31:11,320
for what we talked about earlier
with the woodpecker or the moss.
710
00:31:11,321 --> 00:31:12,160
Right.
711
00:31:12,161 --> 00:31:14,419
You're just like, oh,
you're gonna come after
712
00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:16,240
me for taking my
woodpecker points away.
713
00:31:16,241 --> 00:31:17,880
I'm just gonna start playing saplings.
714
00:31:17,881 --> 00:31:21,000
And those saplings will count as
trees according to the woodpecker.
715
00:31:21,001 --> 00:31:23,560
Absolutely, they also count
as trees for the sycamore.
716
00:31:23,561 --> 00:31:25,520
'Cause they have the tree symbol on them.
717
00:31:25,521 --> 00:31:27,640
Woodpeckers can't pick saplings.
718
00:31:27,641 --> 00:31:28,640
Interesting.
719
00:31:28,641 --> 00:31:29,480
Okay.
720
00:31:29,481 --> 00:31:34,640
They're not worth points and they don't
have-- Yeah, it seems like a weak play.
721
00:31:34,641 --> 00:31:35,480
It's a weak play.
722
00:31:35,481 --> 00:31:38,160
I'd rather play a birch tree,
which draws me a card.
723
00:31:38,161 --> 00:31:39,080
Right.
724
00:31:39,081 --> 00:31:39,920
All right.
725
00:31:39,921 --> 00:31:41,400
With that, let's move on to the prompts.
726
00:31:41,401 --> 00:31:45,760
Wait in complexity on board
game geeks scale of one to five.
727
00:31:45,761 --> 00:31:48,680
How would you rate the
weight of Forest Shuffle
728
00:31:48,681 --> 00:31:50,800
and Paul, since you
won our game last night?
729
00:31:50,801 --> 00:31:52,600
Let us know how easy it is.
730
00:31:52,601 --> 00:31:54,760
Yeah, I rated it two.
731
00:31:54,761 --> 00:31:57,280
I think it only took one
play for my wife to get it.
732
00:31:57,281 --> 00:31:58,120
All right.
733
00:31:58,121 --> 00:31:59,440
Dave, what did you have it down as?
734
00:31:59,441 --> 00:32:00,680
It's clearly a two.
735
00:32:00,681 --> 00:32:02,520
I mean, it might start as a two and a half
736
00:32:02,521 --> 00:32:05,663
because here's another
big deck of cards I gotta
737
00:32:05,664 --> 00:32:07,800
learn before I can get
proficient at a game.
738
00:32:07,801 --> 00:32:10,800
And that's kind of the
way of things these days.
739
00:32:10,801 --> 00:32:14,680
But once you get some basic familiarity,
there's no surprises under the hood.
740
00:32:14,681 --> 00:32:16,480
The iconography is very good.
741
00:32:16,481 --> 00:32:18,600
What you're trying to do is very simple.
742
00:32:18,601 --> 00:32:21,200
The hand management is
one of the more exciting parts
743
00:32:21,201 --> 00:32:23,840
of the game, but it's not nothing
new in hand management.
744
00:32:23,841 --> 00:32:25,680
It's kind of things we
already know how to do.
745
00:32:25,681 --> 00:32:28,160
So yeah, it's absolutely a two in my book.
746
00:32:28,161 --> 00:32:29,000
Yeah.
747
00:32:29,001 --> 00:32:30,560
I had it down as a two as well.
748
00:32:30,561 --> 00:32:32,200
I think it's close to
another favorite of mine.
749
00:32:32,201 --> 00:32:33,480
I think they're similar in weight.
750
00:32:33,481 --> 00:32:36,880
There's definitely more to think about
than just draw a card and play a card.
751
00:32:36,881 --> 00:32:38,680
But there aren't a lot of fiddly rules.
752
00:32:38,681 --> 00:32:42,120
At least you probably some cards have
exceptions, but they're not too bad, right?
753
00:32:42,121 --> 00:32:44,520
Like the hair is being
able to have more than one
754
00:32:44,521 --> 00:32:46,480
on a side of a tree,
but that's not a big deal.
755
00:32:46,481 --> 00:32:47,400
It's right on the card.
756
00:32:47,401 --> 00:32:48,400
It's right on the card.
757
00:32:48,401 --> 00:32:49,240
Yeah.
758
00:32:49,241 --> 00:32:50,200
So I have it down as a two as well.
759
00:32:50,201 --> 00:32:52,200
Well, then something
like bees or trees though,
760
00:32:52,201 --> 00:32:54,360
and sometimes it's right
on somebody else's card.
761
00:32:54,361 --> 00:32:55,800
So, right?
762
00:32:55,801 --> 00:32:58,200
No, it's just, there's the learning curve
763
00:32:58,201 --> 00:33:00,720
of getting to know the deck,
what the possibilities are.
764
00:33:00,721 --> 00:33:03,160
And being able to identify
it from across the table.
765
00:33:03,161 --> 00:33:03,760
Yes.
766
00:33:03,761 --> 00:33:05,000
Right? So that's fair.
767
00:33:05,001 --> 00:33:06,920
So then strategy, how
much opportunity do you think
768
00:33:06,921 --> 00:33:09,720
there is for a strategy in
the game on the same scale?
769
00:33:09,721 --> 00:33:11,280
I rated it three.
770
00:33:11,281 --> 00:33:16,520
I think there is a good deal
of long-term planning early on,
771
00:33:16,521 --> 00:33:19,320
but you reach a point where
the deck gave you the cards
772
00:33:19,321 --> 00:33:21,320
you're going to get and you
just got to make the best of it.
773
00:33:21,321 --> 00:33:22,320
Mm-hmm.
774
00:33:22,321 --> 00:33:22,800
OK.
775
00:33:22,801 --> 00:33:26,040
I also had it down as a three,
mostly because it feels like
776
00:33:26,041 --> 00:33:28,956
the game, to me, is
really about curating your
777
00:33:28,957 --> 00:33:31,320
hand while you have
the opportunity to do so.
778
00:33:31,321 --> 00:33:36,440
And I love that constant anxiety of,
can I draw two more cards right now?
779
00:33:36,441 --> 00:33:38,800
But if I do, that might take me up to nine.
780
00:33:38,801 --> 00:33:42,200
And when it comes back around,
I'll only be able to pick up one card.
781
00:33:42,201 --> 00:33:44,720
So maybe I should play
something and get down to seven
782
00:33:44,721 --> 00:33:48,640
so that I have the opportunity of taking
two cards on the next turn if needed.
783
00:33:48,641 --> 00:33:51,760
I mean, that whole idea is
one of the things you're juggling
784
00:33:51,761 --> 00:33:54,520
while you're planning how
you're going to play your combo.
785
00:33:54,521 --> 00:33:56,200
So for me, it's also a three.
786
00:33:56,201 --> 00:33:58,200
Yeah, I'm locked step with you guys there.
787
00:33:58,201 --> 00:34:00,720
It's a strong three in strategy.
788
00:34:00,721 --> 00:34:03,000
And going, as we've
talked about in other games
789
00:34:03,001 --> 00:34:05,920
that we really liked, it's trying to
do what the game's telling you to do.
790
00:34:05,921 --> 00:34:07,480
If you're going to try to force a strategy,
791
00:34:07,481 --> 00:34:09,440
it's probably not going
to play out for you.
792
00:34:09,441 --> 00:34:11,920
So being able to zag when
the game tells you to zag
793
00:34:11,921 --> 00:34:14,760
and just being light on your
toes as you move forward.
794
00:34:14,761 --> 00:34:18,040
But knowing when to do
that and how to make the best
795
00:34:18,041 --> 00:34:19,840
of what's presented
for you, it's a good three.
796
00:34:19,841 --> 00:34:20,360
Yeah.
797
00:34:20,361 --> 00:34:21,960
It's hard to do that sometimes, right?
798
00:34:21,961 --> 00:34:25,920
I get pit bull locked on
this is what I want to do.
799
00:34:25,921 --> 00:34:29,000
And I start trying to force the game
to do something it doesn't want.
800
00:34:29,001 --> 00:34:30,520
So then Dave, what about luck?
801
00:34:30,521 --> 00:34:33,640
How much do you think luck plays a
factor on the same scale one to five?
802
00:34:33,641 --> 00:34:37,000
I think luck scales
directly with player count.
803
00:34:37,001 --> 00:34:40,720
So in a five player game,
luck is going to be much higher.
804
00:34:40,721 --> 00:34:41,520
Is it a five?
805
00:34:41,521 --> 00:34:43,520
[LAUGHTER]
806
00:34:43,521 --> 00:34:45,680
How about player count minus one?
807
00:34:45,681 --> 00:34:46,640
OK.
808
00:34:46,641 --> 00:34:49,440
So five player, I'm
going to give luck of four.
809
00:34:49,441 --> 00:34:50,760
Two player, it's a one.
810
00:34:50,761 --> 00:34:51,880
I'll stand by that.
811
00:34:51,881 --> 00:34:53,040
I think that's a mic drop.
812
00:34:53,041 --> 00:34:55,400
I like that answer, right?
813
00:34:55,401 --> 00:34:58,531
We've done minutes
per player count in time
814
00:34:58,532 --> 00:35:00,760
of games, but now we're
doing luck per player.
815
00:35:00,761 --> 00:35:02,920
You gave a function as an answer.
816
00:35:02,921 --> 00:35:04,360
I'm like player count minus one.
817
00:35:04,361 --> 00:35:06,800
Shaw dropped, yeah.
818
00:35:06,801 --> 00:35:08,960
But I'm not wrong, am I?
819
00:35:08,961 --> 00:35:12,734
Well, so two player,
the biggest butt-clinching
820
00:35:12,735 --> 00:35:15,400
moment is when you
play a tree mid game.
821
00:35:15,401 --> 00:35:15,880
Yeah.
822
00:35:15,881 --> 00:35:18,440
Because let's say you
need that third salamander.
823
00:35:18,441 --> 00:35:20,680
You're thinking to yourself,
when I play this tree,
824
00:35:20,681 --> 00:35:23,200
is that third salamander going
to be the card that flips out?
825
00:35:23,201 --> 00:35:25,840
And when it does, your opponent's
just going to take it right away.
826
00:35:25,841 --> 00:35:28,490
So that is the primary
source of luck in the two
827
00:35:28,491 --> 00:35:31,920
player game, is the tree
addition to the clearing.
828
00:35:31,921 --> 00:35:35,384
But overall, I just rated
it a three, because luck is
829
00:35:35,385 --> 00:35:39,240
definitely a factor, but I think
you can usually outplay it.
830
00:35:39,241 --> 00:35:39,880
Yeah.
831
00:35:39,881 --> 00:35:41,560
I originally had it down as a three, too,
832
00:35:41,561 --> 00:35:45,280
but I'm getting on board the player count
minus one butt, so I really liked that.
833
00:35:45,281 --> 00:35:49,440
[LAUGHTER] It makes sense.
834
00:35:49,441 --> 00:35:49,920
Yeah.
835
00:35:49,921 --> 00:35:51,886
So then theme, how much
do you think the theme has
836
00:35:51,887 --> 00:35:54,600
been integrated with the
game on the same scale?
837
00:35:54,601 --> 00:35:55,440
One to five.
838
00:35:55,441 --> 00:35:55,960
Paul?
839
00:35:55,961 --> 00:35:57,840
For me, it is a four.
840
00:35:57,841 --> 00:36:02,240
I really adore the theme of this game.
841
00:36:02,241 --> 00:36:05,320
It is just cute and adorable.
842
00:36:05,321 --> 00:36:07,513
The first several times I
played it, I thought it was
843
00:36:07,514 --> 00:36:11,160
friendly before finding out
it's actually quite cutthroat.
844
00:36:11,161 --> 00:36:15,800
And the component quality is
amazing and fitting for the theme.
845
00:36:15,801 --> 00:36:17,600
All right, and Dave, what
do you have for theme?
846
00:36:17,601 --> 00:36:19,200
I'm going to agree here.
847
00:36:19,201 --> 00:36:21,440
The theme is really solid here.
848
00:36:21,441 --> 00:36:24,280
Foxes eat hairs, fungi grow together.
849
00:36:24,281 --> 00:36:26,929
There's lots of stuff that
inform the mechanics
850
00:36:26,930 --> 00:36:29,200
of the game that
also fit thematically.
851
00:36:29,201 --> 00:36:31,320
I'm thinking it's a four, but I'm thinking
852
00:36:31,321 --> 00:36:35,120
I might bump it up again because
this being part of the lookout
853
00:36:35,121 --> 00:36:37,720
spiel, what do they call
it, the green line games?
854
00:36:37,721 --> 00:36:39,680
So they've gone a step
further with the theme
855
00:36:39,681 --> 00:36:42,200
by, like we mentioned in the
beginning, producing a game
856
00:36:42,201 --> 00:36:45,286
without plastics and
making a very low carbon
857
00:36:45,287 --> 00:36:48,200
footprint eco-friendly
biodegradable game.
858
00:36:48,201 --> 00:36:51,800
And so that in a nature themed game,
I feel like that gives it a little bump.
859
00:36:51,801 --> 00:36:53,720
So I'll give it a four plus.
860
00:36:53,721 --> 00:36:55,960
You'll give it a five.
861
00:36:55,961 --> 00:36:58,440
I don't know if I'm ready
to go to five, but why not?
862
00:36:58,441 --> 00:36:59,600
I could give it a five as well.
863
00:36:59,601 --> 00:37:00,560
I mean, the theme is strong.
864
00:37:00,561 --> 00:37:01,400
The theme is great.
865
00:37:01,401 --> 00:37:04,400
Like Paul was saying, it's
adorable, but also there's
866
00:37:04,401 --> 00:37:06,880
a lot going on here where
it makes it a solid game.
867
00:37:06,881 --> 00:37:08,840
Yeah, I mean, I had it
down as a four as well.
868
00:37:08,841 --> 00:37:13,200
I like the idea of a
meta point being added.
869
00:37:13,201 --> 00:37:15,880
4.1, yeah.
870
00:37:15,881 --> 00:37:16,840
That's pretty cool.
871
00:37:16,841 --> 00:37:18,040
All right, so favorite player count.
872
00:37:18,041 --> 00:37:19,280
What is it best played at?
873
00:37:19,281 --> 00:37:21,280
And I feel like we've hinted at it.
874
00:37:21,281 --> 00:37:23,640
So let's go ahead and codify the answer.
875
00:37:23,641 --> 00:37:26,320
Paul, what do you have down
as your favorite player account?
876
00:37:26,321 --> 00:37:28,400
I honestly haven't played
three player enough,
877
00:37:28,401 --> 00:37:30,480
but I think I prefer
two and three player,
878
00:37:30,481 --> 00:37:33,480
because as we discussed, it
has the least amount of luck.
879
00:37:33,481 --> 00:37:34,080
OK.
880
00:37:34,081 --> 00:37:38,240
And at least in your experience, would you
say that two players, the better option?
881
00:37:38,241 --> 00:37:40,480
Compared to four or five, I prefer two.
882
00:37:40,481 --> 00:37:40,960
Yeah.
883
00:37:40,961 --> 00:37:41,520
OK.
884
00:37:41,521 --> 00:37:43,040
Yeah, 100% on that.
885
00:37:43,041 --> 00:37:46,640
I wouldn't be mad if this were
marketed as a two player game.
886
00:37:46,641 --> 00:37:49,960
That wouldn't be strange
at all, if it just was part
887
00:37:49,961 --> 00:37:52,400
of the old Cosmos 2 player
line or something like that.
888
00:37:52,401 --> 00:37:53,080
Right.
889
00:37:53,081 --> 00:37:56,640
So I have this down at
three just because there
890
00:37:56,641 --> 00:38:00,560
aren't as many games that
I think play as well at three.
891
00:38:00,561 --> 00:38:02,520
And there are a lot of
games that play well at two.
892
00:38:02,521 --> 00:38:04,160
But two players also, excellent.
893
00:38:04,161 --> 00:38:06,000
Jill and I have played
this a couple of times,
894
00:38:06,001 --> 00:38:08,120
but nowhere near what
you have played, Paul.
895
00:38:08,121 --> 00:38:09,040
Yeah, I like Paul.
896
00:38:09,041 --> 00:38:11,040
I don't have a ton of
experience at three players,
897
00:38:11,041 --> 00:38:13,520
but at least in theory,
I'm not mad at it.
898
00:38:13,521 --> 00:38:15,280
I think three players.
899
00:38:15,281 --> 00:38:17,440
It seems like that would be very strong.
900
00:38:17,441 --> 00:38:20,120
Four and five, well, I guess
that hints into the next question.
901
00:38:20,121 --> 00:38:22,760
Four and five, we kind of start
to get into a different area here.
902
00:38:22,761 --> 00:38:24,320
All right, well, just keep rolling.
903
00:38:24,321 --> 00:38:28,360
So least you have a
player count, four or five.
904
00:38:28,361 --> 00:38:30,920
Five with four is a close runner up.
905
00:38:30,921 --> 00:38:31,920
It's OK.
906
00:38:31,921 --> 00:38:35,960
Your destiny, you start to lose control of
your own destiny, I think, in some points.
907
00:38:35,961 --> 00:38:38,440
The player binding gets very strong.
908
00:38:38,441 --> 00:38:42,320
The player next to you, your fate is
somewhat in their hands in some ways.
909
00:38:42,321 --> 00:38:45,800
And it's just-- it becomes a
much more chaotic game, I think.
910
00:38:45,801 --> 00:38:48,800
Yeah, I think five players, the
clear winner, for least favorite.
911
00:38:48,801 --> 00:38:50,200
I still enjoy four player.
912
00:38:50,201 --> 00:38:50,800
OK.
913
00:38:50,801 --> 00:38:52,040
Yeah, I had five done as well.
914
00:38:52,041 --> 00:38:55,480
But as I was thinking about
it, I guess it makes sense.
915
00:38:55,481 --> 00:38:59,250
I wonder if Dave and I were
going head to head on the Linden
916
00:38:59,251 --> 00:39:03,760
trees, and Greg and Paul were
going on the horse chestnuts.
917
00:39:03,761 --> 00:39:07,360
And Megan was just
playing it for the first time,
918
00:39:07,361 --> 00:39:11,240
so I don't think she really had a
strategy that she was pursuing.
919
00:39:11,241 --> 00:39:12,800
Well, she was doing butterflies.
920
00:39:12,801 --> 00:39:13,320
She was.
921
00:39:13,321 --> 00:39:14,360
She had something else.
922
00:39:14,361 --> 00:39:15,880
But nobody else was doing butterflies.
923
00:39:15,881 --> 00:39:21,160
So she was kind of an odd man out,
which I still think she didn't quite see.
924
00:39:21,161 --> 00:39:22,640
And that might have just been luck.
925
00:39:22,641 --> 00:39:24,080
She didn't really see as many butterflies.
926
00:39:24,081 --> 00:39:26,400
But none of us were really
scooping up the butterflies.
927
00:39:26,401 --> 00:39:27,920
I just think it didn't fall down for her.
928
00:39:27,921 --> 00:39:28,520
Right.
929
00:39:28,521 --> 00:39:31,080
But what I'm looking at
is, I think maybe at five,
930
00:39:31,081 --> 00:39:34,040
you get that one person
who slips through, right?
931
00:39:34,041 --> 00:39:37,680
And they're left alone, or
their swim lane is left alone,
932
00:39:37,681 --> 00:39:39,920
and they're able to get
a lot more points for it.
933
00:39:39,921 --> 00:39:42,080
Whereas, I think, in four, the likelihood
934
00:39:42,081 --> 00:39:45,760
that you end up colliding with
someone is actually a little more focused.
935
00:39:45,761 --> 00:39:49,920
Because there are more opportunities
to do things like collect hairs, right?
936
00:39:49,921 --> 00:39:55,120
At five, things are distributed enough that
it's harder to have a sustaining combo.
937
00:39:55,121 --> 00:39:56,440
So actual playing time.
938
00:39:56,441 --> 00:39:57,480
Boxes can lie.
939
00:39:57,481 --> 00:40:02,200
And this one says that the
playing time is 40 to 60 minutes.
940
00:40:02,201 --> 00:40:05,120
Do you find that to be
a good approximation?
941
00:40:05,121 --> 00:40:08,640
I think with experience, it
might be closer to 30 to 45.
942
00:40:08,641 --> 00:40:11,680
I mean, it's got a pretty good
bang-to-buck ratio on there.
943
00:40:11,681 --> 00:40:16,200
Is it-- it's almost filler territory once
everybody's familiar with the game.
944
00:40:16,201 --> 00:40:18,320
Yeah, I'll over half my
plays are two-player.
945
00:40:18,321 --> 00:40:23,040
But honestly, I don't think the play
time changes between player count.
946
00:40:23,041 --> 00:40:25,400
And my average play time is 41 minutes.
947
00:40:25,401 --> 00:40:26,240
Oh, wow.
948
00:40:26,241 --> 00:40:27,920
So what did we clock in last night?
949
00:40:27,921 --> 00:40:29,960
Was it 50, 45 minutes?
950
00:40:29,961 --> 00:40:31,240
It was less than 50.
951
00:40:31,241 --> 00:40:32,080
Yeah.
952
00:40:32,081 --> 00:40:33,960
It was 47.
953
00:40:33,961 --> 00:40:37,080
Well, I'm thinking, five players going to
be even slower because we're kind of BS
954
00:40:37,081 --> 00:40:39,520
in a little bit, and there's
a lot more table talk.
955
00:40:39,521 --> 00:40:41,600
And it was a teaching game for Megan.
956
00:40:41,601 --> 00:40:43,840
So that's always going to
get a new player at the table.
957
00:40:43,841 --> 00:40:45,200
And we still came in under 50.
958
00:40:45,201 --> 00:40:50,480
I've had our long two-player games, but
that's because we picked different swim lanes
959
00:40:50,481 --> 00:40:52,946
and kept picking up
what the other person was
960
00:40:52,947 --> 00:40:55,240
putting down, which is
into the game quite a bit.
961
00:40:55,241 --> 00:40:56,000
Amazing.
962
00:40:56,001 --> 00:40:56,480
OK.
963
00:40:56,481 --> 00:40:58,560
It seems like an actual good estimate
964
00:40:58,561 --> 00:41:01,760
that 40 to 60 minutes
for a game of four shuffle.
965
00:41:01,761 --> 00:41:03,811
Although I agree that
if you're both pushing
966
00:41:03,812 --> 00:41:06,160
it, it could get down
into the 30-minute range.
967
00:41:06,161 --> 00:41:10,120
So there is an expansion to this game,
but I don't have any experience with it.
968
00:41:10,121 --> 00:41:12,120
Do either of you know much about it?
969
00:41:12,121 --> 00:41:14,840
All you had mentioned is
something about caves and vultures.
970
00:41:14,841 --> 00:41:19,120
Yeah, it adds Alpine, Flora
and Fauna to the game.
971
00:41:19,121 --> 00:41:24,400
And the one thing I noticed that intrigues
me is it makes the cave more powerful.
972
00:41:24,401 --> 00:41:24,960
Yeah.
973
00:41:24,961 --> 00:41:25,440
OK.
974
00:41:25,441 --> 00:41:27,614
Well, so I'm going
to have to trust the
975
00:41:27,615 --> 00:41:31,080
designers on this one,
because this is the same--
976
00:41:31,081 --> 00:41:34,200
I mean, we'd have the same
conversation we did about wingspan.
977
00:41:34,201 --> 00:41:36,040
Arc Nova, we talked about this, too.
978
00:41:36,041 --> 00:41:38,120
We're basically splashing cards in.
979
00:41:38,121 --> 00:41:39,320
And so we're diluting it.
980
00:41:39,321 --> 00:41:45,320
So if I'm going for fox and hairs, well,
now I've got-- in fact, I wrote it down.
981
00:41:45,321 --> 00:41:47,120
We're adding 36 cards to the deck.
982
00:41:47,121 --> 00:41:48,440
So now I've diluted the deck.
983
00:41:48,441 --> 00:41:52,240
There's 36-- now 36 cards in the
deck that aren't going to work for me.
984
00:41:52,241 --> 00:41:56,600
We're also removing-- Well,
they are adding cards that do work.
985
00:41:56,601 --> 00:41:59,040
So the analogs count as deer.
986
00:41:59,041 --> 00:42:02,280
They have hairs that say
they count as European hairs.
987
00:42:02,281 --> 00:42:06,360
So they are weaving these
new cards into the old ones.
988
00:42:06,361 --> 00:42:06,760
Right.
989
00:42:06,761 --> 00:42:07,880
And that was going to be my next point.
990
00:42:07,881 --> 00:42:09,600
It was that I haven't played the expansion.
991
00:42:09,601 --> 00:42:15,680
But in its favor, it looks like all of the
cards fit in with the existing strategies.
992
00:42:15,681 --> 00:42:18,840
There may be some strategies,
like butterflies, might get diluted.
993
00:42:18,841 --> 00:42:20,200
I don't know if there's
any butterflies in the--
994
00:42:20,201 --> 00:42:21,680
Yeah, there's new butterflies as well.
995
00:42:21,681 --> 00:42:22,000
OK.
996
00:42:22,001 --> 00:42:26,120
So maybe if they're augmenting
every existing strategy,
997
00:42:26,121 --> 00:42:28,120
then I think I trust the
designers on this one.
998
00:42:28,121 --> 00:42:31,600
And it sounds like it might
just be good, clean, fun.
999
00:42:31,601 --> 00:42:35,760
I don't know the-- Yeah, I expect the only
thing it'll really do is extend play time.
1000
00:42:35,761 --> 00:42:37,600
Well, because there's more cards?
1001
00:42:37,601 --> 00:42:38,160
Yeah.
1002
00:42:38,161 --> 00:42:43,480
Well, we're adding 36 cards
and removing 15 to 25 more.
1003
00:42:43,481 --> 00:42:45,600
So we're-- though we're adding cards,
1004
00:42:45,601 --> 00:42:48,600
we're removing more cards
than we would normally remove.
1005
00:42:48,601 --> 00:42:52,880
So I think it kind of balances back
to the same-- we'll have to play it.
1006
00:42:52,881 --> 00:42:55,040
I'm kind of pulling it out of the air here.
1007
00:42:55,041 --> 00:42:56,600
But we'll have to play it and see.
1008
00:42:56,601 --> 00:42:58,960
But I don't think it's going
to extend it dramatically.
1009
00:42:58,961 --> 00:42:59,560
OK.
1010
00:42:59,561 --> 00:43:01,760
Most recognizable comparison.
1011
00:43:01,761 --> 00:43:06,240
What is the highest ranking game that
reminds you the most of Forest Shuffle?
1012
00:43:06,241 --> 00:43:06,960
Dave.
1013
00:43:06,961 --> 00:43:08,360
Well, thanks for letting me go first.
1014
00:43:08,361 --> 00:43:11,000
Now, we've already mentioned
my answer a couple of times.
1015
00:43:11,001 --> 00:43:15,720
So I first went into this game
in my first four plays, five plays.
1016
00:43:15,721 --> 00:43:19,880
I'm thinking this as a San Juan
comp, or something like that.
1017
00:43:19,881 --> 00:43:23,627
It was when, I think, one of
you mentioned how the clearing
1018
00:43:23,628 --> 00:43:26,640
is like Lost Cities, which is
my answer for this question.
1019
00:43:26,641 --> 00:43:29,880
It put this game in a
totally different light for me.
1020
00:43:29,881 --> 00:43:32,920
Thinking of each tree
or each strategy at least
1021
00:43:32,921 --> 00:43:35,960
as an expedition that I'm
going to prep for before I start
1022
00:43:35,961 --> 00:43:38,480
playing and try to
play it in a certain order
1023
00:43:38,481 --> 00:43:40,480
or keep it out of the
other player's hands.
1024
00:43:40,481 --> 00:43:42,480
And that illuminated the game for me.
1025
00:43:42,481 --> 00:43:45,200
And it made me like the
game quite a bit more.
1026
00:43:45,201 --> 00:43:47,720
And I just wasn't seeing
that for my first few plays.
1027
00:43:47,721 --> 00:43:50,960
But it's so obvious now that
somebody's mentioned it to me.
1028
00:43:50,961 --> 00:43:57,240
Well, this is like we always used to say,
this game is game X is game Y on steroids.
1029
00:43:57,241 --> 00:44:00,320
In some ways, I might say
this is a Lost Cities on steroids.
1030
00:44:00,321 --> 00:44:00,920
Yeah.
1031
00:44:00,921 --> 00:44:02,880
So Lost Cities was my answer, too.
1032
00:44:02,881 --> 00:44:05,040
But I did have a backup,
and that was San Juan.
1033
00:44:05,041 --> 00:44:06,880
So congratulations.
1034
00:44:06,881 --> 00:44:08,400
You nailed them both.
1035
00:44:08,401 --> 00:44:08,960
Yeah.
1036
00:44:08,961 --> 00:44:11,720
And if I go with the San Juan comparison,
1037
00:44:11,721 --> 00:44:13,651
we're back to hand
management and multi-use
1038
00:44:13,652 --> 00:44:16,360
cards, which is just a
winning mechanism for me.
1039
00:44:16,361 --> 00:44:18,040
I absolutely adore it.
1040
00:44:18,041 --> 00:44:20,040
So I was really happy to see it here.
1041
00:44:20,041 --> 00:44:22,960
But of course, in San Juan, there
is no clearing mechanism there.
1042
00:44:22,961 --> 00:44:25,800
If you discard a card,
you won't see it again
1043
00:44:25,801 --> 00:44:27,858
until you've run all the
way through the deck and
1044
00:44:27,859 --> 00:44:30,040
reshuffled and brought it
back into the draw deck.
1045
00:44:30,041 --> 00:44:31,160
Paul, what did you have?
1046
00:44:31,161 --> 00:44:35,000
My most recognized little
comparison is Glory to Rome.
1047
00:44:35,001 --> 00:44:35,760
There you go.
1048
00:44:35,761 --> 00:44:37,680
This game is all about combos.
1049
00:44:37,681 --> 00:44:41,440
And Glory to Rome has some of
the pickup which you put down as well.
1050
00:44:41,441 --> 00:44:44,720
But if you want to win,
you get a good combo.
1051
00:44:44,721 --> 00:44:47,880
I mean, you get a game-breaking
combo in Glory to Rome.
1052
00:44:47,881 --> 00:44:51,040
Well, other players allow you to get that.
1053
00:44:51,041 --> 00:44:52,280
True.
1054
00:44:52,281 --> 00:44:54,480
Does anybody play Glory to Rome these days?
1055
00:44:54,481 --> 00:44:55,880
I never hear of it.
1056
00:44:55,881 --> 00:44:57,520
Everybody loves it when it gets played.
1057
00:44:57,521 --> 00:45:00,040
Honestly, I don't like
Glory to Rome at all.
1058
00:45:00,041 --> 00:45:00,840
Oh, OK.
1059
00:45:00,841 --> 00:45:03,200
But I would happily play Innovation.
1060
00:45:03,201 --> 00:45:04,080
Yes.
1061
00:45:04,081 --> 00:45:04,840
Yes.
1062
00:45:04,841 --> 00:45:08,360
If I did play Glory to Rome, Force
Shuffle would have replaced it.
1063
00:45:08,361 --> 00:45:13,400
This is a little foreshadowing there.
1064
00:45:13,401 --> 00:45:15,720
A little foreshadowing.
1065
00:45:15,721 --> 00:45:16,360
Yeah.
1066
00:45:16,361 --> 00:45:18,400
We can play Glory to Rome.
1067
00:45:18,401 --> 00:45:20,640
If you want to get the game
out early, then I'll bring it
1068
00:45:20,641 --> 00:45:23,000
and we can get a game in
before everyone all shows up.
1069
00:45:23,001 --> 00:45:24,920
Well, which edition do you have?
1070
00:45:24,921 --> 00:45:28,000
Because I know that's part of
that game is the different editions.
1071
00:45:28,001 --> 00:45:31,120
So I've got the original
a cartoony version.
1072
00:45:31,121 --> 00:45:35,280
Actually, I should have asked,
which edition don't you have?
1073
00:45:35,281 --> 00:45:36,040
Just the one?
1074
00:45:36,041 --> 00:45:37,200
Right.
1075
00:45:37,201 --> 00:45:39,000
I just have the one
at the cartoony edition.
1076
00:45:39,001 --> 00:45:43,160
I think Greg has the black
box edition, which is the one
1077
00:45:43,161 --> 00:45:46,960
that killed a company, if you are
familiar with that particular story.
1078
00:45:46,961 --> 00:45:49,320
All right, so less recognizable comparison.
1079
00:45:49,321 --> 00:45:52,040
What did you guys have for
the less recognizable one?
1080
00:45:52,041 --> 00:45:54,160
And Paul, I'll let you go first.
1081
00:45:54,161 --> 00:45:54,680
OK.
1082
00:45:54,681 --> 00:45:59,240
For me, it is Morel's primarily
because of the theme.
1083
00:45:59,241 --> 00:46:03,080
But it's also hand management, 100%.
1084
00:46:03,081 --> 00:46:04,840
And it's kind of combo building.
1085
00:46:04,841 --> 00:46:05,920
Well, it's set building, really.
1086
00:46:05,921 --> 00:46:07,960
But it's a forest theme in Morel's.
1087
00:46:07,961 --> 00:46:11,800
You're walking through a forest and picking
up mushrooms so you can cook them later.
1088
00:46:11,801 --> 00:46:13,880
And which one does your wife enjoy more?
1089
00:46:13,881 --> 00:46:15,960
Forest shuffle or Morel's?
1090
00:46:15,961 --> 00:46:17,320
Depends how much time we have.
1091
00:46:17,321 --> 00:46:17,920
OK.
1092
00:46:17,921 --> 00:46:18,320
Yeah.
1093
00:46:18,321 --> 00:46:21,560
If we got 30 minutes, it's
Morel's more than 30 minutes.
1094
00:46:21,561 --> 00:46:22,320
It's Forest shuffle.
1095
00:46:22,321 --> 00:46:23,000
Awesome.
1096
00:46:23,001 --> 00:46:23,960
Dave, what do you have?
1097
00:46:23,961 --> 00:46:28,080
Well, it's ridiculous to call
this a less recognizable game.
1098
00:46:28,081 --> 00:46:32,720
But our criterion for this is that it
has to be just outside the top 750.
1099
00:46:32,721 --> 00:46:34,600
So I reduced it for this.
1100
00:46:34,601 --> 00:46:36,200
You didn't even have to because my answer's
1101
00:46:36,201 --> 00:46:39,440
rumming, which is like in
the 2000s or 3,000 something.
1102
00:46:39,441 --> 00:46:40,880
Look, you're drawing cards.
1103
00:46:40,881 --> 00:46:41,960
You're melding cards.
1104
00:46:41,961 --> 00:46:45,320
You're laying cards off on your
tableau that you've melded in front of you.
1105
00:46:45,321 --> 00:46:50,520
And if you think of the combos
as suits or trying to put together
1106
00:46:50,521 --> 00:46:53,400
runs, it's really just a
fancy version of that.
1107
00:46:53,401 --> 00:46:56,720
And it's funny as much as
I complain about this game
1108
00:46:56,721 --> 00:47:00,213
as that the scarcity of these
combos I'm trying to pull off
1109
00:47:00,214 --> 00:47:03,960
where I'll sit and try to pull
it inside straight on a run.
1110
00:47:03,961 --> 00:47:06,760
I'm going for an Rummy,
which is a 1 in 52 chance.
1111
00:47:06,761 --> 00:47:08,560
It's even worse than this.
1112
00:47:08,561 --> 00:47:12,760
But I somehow accept it
better in a game of 500 rum
1113
00:47:12,761 --> 00:47:15,400
or contract Rummy with my
family than in a game like this.
1114
00:47:15,401 --> 00:47:17,000
But it's very similar.
1115
00:47:17,001 --> 00:47:19,840
It's Rummy with whistles and bells.
1116
00:47:19,841 --> 00:47:21,480
I really like that comparison.
1117
00:47:21,481 --> 00:47:22,840
And you're right.
1118
00:47:22,841 --> 00:47:25,320
So the reason why I said
I dropped it is currently
1119
00:47:25,321 --> 00:47:34,160
at number 723 is a game that won the
Kennerspiel des Jares in 2023, I think, 2022.
1120
00:47:34,161 --> 00:47:35,920
And that is Living Forest.
1121
00:47:35,921 --> 00:47:39,440
This is you trying to
collect different elements
1122
00:47:39,441 --> 00:47:42,640
to play guardian
spirits in front of you.
1123
00:47:42,641 --> 00:47:45,640
And then they're each
contributing their various,
1124
00:47:45,641 --> 00:47:48,640
either powers or their
elements so that you can combo
1125
00:47:48,641 --> 00:47:52,320
and then play additional
spirits into your forest
1126
00:47:52,321 --> 00:47:56,080
and accomplish those
tasks using their attributes.
1127
00:47:56,081 --> 00:47:58,840
And it's a great little
game in the forest theme.
1128
00:47:58,841 --> 00:48:01,160
It has some definite cartoonish artwork.
1129
00:48:01,161 --> 00:48:04,000
And it definitely was a
ready comparison for me.
1130
00:48:04,001 --> 00:48:06,480
But just under the 750 mark.
1131
00:48:06,481 --> 00:48:09,800
Well, now I see why you
lowered that mark from 750 to 700
1132
00:48:09,801 --> 00:48:13,520
where you're just unashamedly
saying, because your game was at 723.
1133
00:48:13,521 --> 00:48:14,280
100%.
1134
00:48:14,281 --> 00:48:14,600
Yeah.
1135
00:48:14,601 --> 00:48:15,360
OK, yeah.
1136
00:48:15,361 --> 00:48:16,840
You need to do that when you're the host.
1137
00:48:16,841 --> 00:48:18,760
That's right.
1138
00:48:18,761 --> 00:48:21,160
So house rules, how would
you improve the game?
1139
00:48:21,161 --> 00:48:22,360
Any thoughts there?
1140
00:48:22,361 --> 00:48:23,760
I don't have any yet.
1141
00:48:23,761 --> 00:48:25,040
I've really wrapped my brain.
1142
00:48:25,041 --> 00:48:26,200
I can't think of any.
1143
00:48:26,201 --> 00:48:28,520
I wish I could play a cricket sound effect.
1144
00:48:28,521 --> 00:48:30,520
Yeah.
1145
00:48:30,521 --> 00:48:33,040
It would be very apt, too.
1146
00:48:33,041 --> 00:48:35,280
You know, for me, I
would love to try playing it
1147
00:48:35,281 --> 00:48:38,760
with a known ending or at
least a less variable ending.
1148
00:48:38,761 --> 00:48:41,120
Oh, so you want to take out
the funnest part of the game?
1149
00:48:41,121 --> 00:48:45,080
I don't-- it's not the funnest
part of the game for me.
1150
00:48:45,081 --> 00:48:47,240
I thought about, you
know, if you shuffled it
1151
00:48:47,241 --> 00:48:49,736
in to the last 10 or
15 cards, but really all
1152
00:48:49,737 --> 00:48:51,720
you're saying is you
need one winter card.
1153
00:48:51,721 --> 00:48:54,360
When you see the winter
card, the game is going to end,
1154
00:48:54,361 --> 00:48:56,840
and it's going to happen
sometime in the last fill
1155
00:48:56,841 --> 00:48:58,960
in the number of
cards versus-- Right.
1156
00:48:58,961 --> 00:49:01,800
--it could happen anytime
after you've uncovered two,
1157
00:49:01,801 --> 00:49:04,240
like we did a couple weeks
ago when we got too off the bat.
1158
00:49:04,241 --> 00:49:07,360
And so we had 30
cards of drawing that still--
1159
00:49:07,361 --> 00:49:11,840
So you're saying that the fact
the game could end, let's say,
1160
00:49:11,841 --> 00:49:17,720
you know, 1% chance with a third of the deck
undrawn is what puts ants in your pants.
1161
00:49:17,721 --> 00:49:19,120
What I don't like about the game.
1162
00:49:19,121 --> 00:49:21,280
Yep.
1163
00:49:21,281 --> 00:49:22,680
Literal ants in my pants.
1164
00:49:22,681 --> 00:49:23,160
Thank you.
1165
00:49:23,161 --> 00:49:25,440
Yes.
1166
00:49:25,441 --> 00:49:26,760
Red ants and their biting.
1167
00:49:26,761 --> 00:49:27,680
Thank you.
1168
00:49:27,681 --> 00:49:30,080
Yeah.
1169
00:49:30,081 --> 00:49:31,920
So this game is being played at game night.
1170
00:49:31,921 --> 00:49:33,440
What do you want to play afterwards?
1171
00:49:33,441 --> 00:49:36,520
What's the double feature
game that goes best along with it?
1172
00:49:36,521 --> 00:49:37,280
Nothing.
1173
00:49:37,281 --> 00:49:39,680
I want to play a game before this one.
1174
00:49:39,681 --> 00:49:40,520
Yes.
1175
00:49:40,521 --> 00:49:41,040
OK.
1176
00:49:41,041 --> 00:49:42,040
OK.
1177
00:49:42,041 --> 00:49:43,600
I also have that down as my answer.
1178
00:49:43,601 --> 00:49:44,880
But what is that game?
1179
00:49:44,881 --> 00:49:48,400
I would continue the theme
and play Arknova, right?
1180
00:49:48,401 --> 00:49:50,101
Instead of playing
trees, you're playing zoo
1181
00:49:50,102 --> 00:49:52,760
enclosures, but they call
out to me to be together.
1182
00:49:52,761 --> 00:49:53,920
I think that makes a lot of sense.
1183
00:49:53,921 --> 00:49:56,120
I had Earth down for
the same reason, right?
1184
00:49:56,121 --> 00:49:57,400
You're building up an ecology.
1185
00:49:57,401 --> 00:50:01,680
But it's another game in that style
as Arknova or terraforming Mars.
1186
00:50:01,681 --> 00:50:04,840
Well, interestingly, no
wonder we are a game group.
1187
00:50:04,841 --> 00:50:06,760
Because my answer is terraforming Mars.
1188
00:50:06,761 --> 00:50:09,160
So we've said three
versions of very similar games.
1189
00:50:09,161 --> 00:50:11,680
[LAUGHTER]
1190
00:50:11,681 --> 00:50:14,000
For me, we've terraformed the planet.
1191
00:50:14,001 --> 00:50:15,800
Let's get a forest going.
1192
00:50:15,801 --> 00:50:17,120
Let's get some forest on it.
1193
00:50:17,121 --> 00:50:18,440
Oh, yeah, I mean, you need this.
1194
00:50:18,441 --> 00:50:22,160
It's terraforming Mars to a huge
forest on Mars when you terraform it.
1195
00:50:22,161 --> 00:50:23,120
So, yeah, it makes sense.
1196
00:50:23,121 --> 00:50:23,600
That's right.
1197
00:50:23,601 --> 00:50:24,240
Right.
1198
00:50:24,241 --> 00:50:29,160
So if I had to think of maybe one other
game lighter than this, how about arboretum?
1199
00:50:29,161 --> 00:50:29,920
Yes.
1200
00:50:29,921 --> 00:50:30,280
Yeah.
1201
00:50:30,281 --> 00:50:32,840
That's what my wife and I play
when we only have 15 minutes.
1202
00:50:32,841 --> 00:50:37,200
[LAUGHTER]
1203
00:50:37,201 --> 00:50:40,720
So you have these three games
stacked on top of each other.
1204
00:50:40,721 --> 00:50:41,240
Exactly.
1205
00:50:41,241 --> 00:50:43,840
Which one comes off the shelf
is how much time you have?
1206
00:50:43,841 --> 00:50:46,160
And if they have 90 minutes, it's Arknova.
1207
00:50:46,161 --> 00:50:47,160
Yeah, exactly.
1208
00:50:47,161 --> 00:50:48,160
Right.
1209
00:50:48,161 --> 00:50:50,160
[LAUGHTER]
1210
00:50:50,161 --> 00:50:52,680
All right, so what feature of
the game still stands out to you?
1211
00:50:52,681 --> 00:50:55,480
So this game is still a relative new one.
1212
00:50:55,481 --> 00:51:00,400
What really has aged the best
in its limited release time, Dave?
1213
00:51:00,401 --> 00:51:01,480
It's the clearing.
1214
00:51:01,481 --> 00:51:04,280
And as we said, it's a
rehash of Lost Cities.
1215
00:51:04,281 --> 00:51:07,400
But to me, that's just the most
interesting part of the game
1216
00:51:07,401 --> 00:51:09,800
is that I can't give you cards
that you're going to want
1217
00:51:09,801 --> 00:51:12,400
or time them to wipe
them as we've talked about.
1218
00:51:12,401 --> 00:51:16,360
Just the way that discard
interacts, I think it's just fantastic.
1219
00:51:16,361 --> 00:51:18,000
And I think it's going
to hold up for a while.
1220
00:51:18,001 --> 00:51:18,760
Absolutely.
1221
00:51:18,761 --> 00:51:19,480
Good call.
1222
00:51:19,481 --> 00:51:21,040
Paul, what did you have?
1223
00:51:21,041 --> 00:51:23,680
I couldn't decide between two
things that I love about this game.
1224
00:51:23,681 --> 00:51:26,200
One, being the clearing, like Dave said.
1225
00:51:26,201 --> 00:51:29,680
And two, being the variable
game end, like you said.
1226
00:51:29,681 --> 00:51:31,600
Yeah, I didn't say that was
my favorite thing, though.
1227
00:51:31,601 --> 00:51:34,160
[LAUGHTER]
1228
00:51:34,161 --> 00:51:38,040
You said you wanted a house
rule, but it's one of my favorite things.
1229
00:51:38,041 --> 00:51:40,040
OK.
1230
00:51:40,041 --> 00:51:40,480
Right.
1231
00:51:40,481 --> 00:51:43,280
For me, I had the split cards, right?
1232
00:51:43,281 --> 00:51:44,600
The left, right, top, bottom.
1233
00:51:44,601 --> 00:51:45,960
Those are awesome, yeah.
1234
00:51:45,961 --> 00:51:46,400
Yeah.
1235
00:51:46,401 --> 00:51:47,400
That was a novel.
1236
00:51:47,401 --> 00:51:50,509
But the clearing is
also just a really strong
1237
00:51:50,510 --> 00:51:52,960
mechanism that stands
out, so I agree there.
1238
00:51:52,961 --> 00:51:56,320
So what feature of the game
now disappoints game length?
1239
00:51:56,321 --> 00:51:58,360
What is age the worst for you?
1240
00:51:58,361 --> 00:51:59,160
Anything?
1241
00:51:59,161 --> 00:52:00,240
My answer is nothing.
1242
00:52:00,241 --> 00:52:00,840
Nothing.
1243
00:52:00,841 --> 00:52:02,160
Game length, OK?
1244
00:52:02,161 --> 00:52:05,240
Well, this isn't a big knock on the game.
1245
00:52:05,241 --> 00:52:06,600
I mean, it shouldn't be.
1246
00:52:06,601 --> 00:52:09,720
And this is not a big deck energy
game that we've talked about.
1247
00:52:09,721 --> 00:52:12,280
But it is another game we've
come into yet another game
1248
00:52:12,281 --> 00:52:14,720
where I've got to learn a
whole new deck of cards.
1249
00:52:14,721 --> 00:52:17,080
And it's in the zeitgeist right now.
1250
00:52:17,081 --> 00:52:20,240
That's what's hot right now,
or these aren't unique cards.
1251
00:52:20,241 --> 00:52:22,160
So it's not quite the same as Arknova.
1252
00:52:22,161 --> 00:52:25,840
But again, in order to get proficient,
I've got to learn a whole bunch of cards.
1253
00:52:25,841 --> 00:52:27,040
But you can't knock the game for it.
1254
00:52:27,041 --> 00:52:28,720
That's really what makes it sing.
1255
00:52:28,721 --> 00:52:30,280
I mean, that's what's good about the game.
1256
00:52:30,281 --> 00:52:32,640
It's just as a player,
like, here we go again.
1257
00:52:32,641 --> 00:52:34,520
So I actually grumbled through a few plays
1258
00:52:34,521 --> 00:52:37,560
before my gaming friends start
telling me, like, no, it's a good game.
1259
00:52:37,561 --> 00:52:38,800
Trust us.
1260
00:52:38,801 --> 00:52:42,360
And then I start, all right, I'll learn
the cards and make it to the other side.
1261
00:52:42,361 --> 00:52:42,800
Right.
1262
00:52:42,801 --> 00:52:45,080
And appreciate declaring for what it is.
1263
00:52:45,081 --> 00:52:47,600
As you mentioned, that
was your other aha moment.
1264
00:52:47,601 --> 00:52:48,080
Right.
1265
00:52:48,081 --> 00:52:48,560
OK.
1266
00:52:48,561 --> 00:52:50,200
And, by the way, I didn't mean game length.
1267
00:52:50,201 --> 00:52:52,280
I meant the game timer mechanism.
1268
00:52:52,281 --> 00:52:53,600
Oh, we all do.
1269
00:52:53,601 --> 00:52:55,120
You were talking about the winner cards.
1270
00:52:55,121 --> 00:52:55,640
Yeah.
1271
00:52:55,641 --> 00:52:57,400
I have it as one of my favorite features.
1272
00:52:57,401 --> 00:52:59,480
And you have it as one
of the worst features.
1273
00:52:59,481 --> 00:53:00,600
Understand.
1274
00:53:00,601 --> 00:53:01,280
Yeah.
1275
00:53:01,281 --> 00:53:03,080
I didn't realize that you
didn't like it so much.
1276
00:53:03,081 --> 00:53:06,120
It's such a great tension
at the end of the game.
1277
00:53:06,121 --> 00:53:09,080
Do you like it in Alhambra
or other games that do this?
1278
00:53:09,081 --> 00:53:10,640
Like, this could be my last turn.
1279
00:53:10,641 --> 00:53:11,520
I don't know yet.
1280
00:53:11,521 --> 00:53:13,680
I don't just don't like that ever.
1281
00:53:13,681 --> 00:53:16,720
I love player-controlled
endings to the game.
1282
00:53:16,721 --> 00:53:20,720
But I also like knowing where
that ending is, so I can control to it.
1283
00:53:20,721 --> 00:53:21,040
Right.
1284
00:53:21,041 --> 00:53:21,360
Yeah.
1285
00:53:21,361 --> 00:53:22,360
St. Petersburg.
1286
00:53:22,361 --> 00:53:27,360
I can-- Todd wants it to be a dart
board instead of the broad side of a barn.
1287
00:53:27,361 --> 00:53:29,600
And for a shuffle, it's
the broad side of a barn.
1288
00:53:29,601 --> 00:53:30,160
Yeah.
1289
00:53:30,161 --> 00:53:30,600
Yeah.
1290
00:53:30,601 --> 00:53:33,400
Well, or maybe this is the
illusion of player-controlled.
1291
00:53:33,401 --> 00:53:37,000
Like, we're trying to-- Also turn to the
deck is controlling me into the game.
1292
00:53:37,001 --> 00:53:39,080
We're just trying to speed
or slow down that deck.
1293
00:53:39,081 --> 00:53:41,640
So it's not as player-controlled
as we want it to be.
1294
00:53:41,641 --> 00:53:42,440
Right.
1295
00:53:42,441 --> 00:53:44,160
Or I should-- I mean, you want it to be.
1296
00:53:44,161 --> 00:53:45,400
I like it really.
1297
00:53:45,401 --> 00:53:46,760
No, you like it when it's in luck.
1298
00:53:46,761 --> 00:53:48,440
We'll talk about it when we get to rain.
1299
00:53:48,441 --> 00:53:52,120
Yeah, you know, I think the
reason I love the variable game
1300
00:53:52,121 --> 00:53:56,165
in so much is because I
became so soured on a previous
1301
00:53:56,166 --> 00:53:58,960
favorite game of mine
called locomotive works.
1302
00:53:58,961 --> 00:54:05,960
Because of the minute calculations that
everybody had to do at the end of the game,
1303
00:54:05,961 --> 00:54:08,782
you had to, like, work
backwards like a math
1304
00:54:08,783 --> 00:54:10,920
problem to three turns
before the end of the game
1305
00:54:10,921 --> 00:54:13,680
to figure out what position you
wanted to be at the end of the game.
1306
00:54:13,681 --> 00:54:19,440
And so that developed a hatred
of defined game endings for me.
1307
00:54:19,441 --> 00:54:20,280
OK.
1308
00:54:20,281 --> 00:54:24,040
It was such a good time we
had with locomotive works.
1309
00:54:24,041 --> 00:54:26,520
And that end game meta started to emerge.
1310
00:54:26,521 --> 00:54:29,680
And then it's starting to get
to where sometimes even less
1311
00:54:29,681 --> 00:54:32,160
than halfway through the
game, where we start calculating.
1312
00:54:32,161 --> 00:54:33,360
Where do I want to be?
1313
00:54:33,361 --> 00:54:35,560
I'm planning for the end game from here.
1314
00:54:35,561 --> 00:54:40,120
And there's a lot of basic
arithmetic involved, but a lot of it.
1315
00:54:40,121 --> 00:54:42,920
Take it the dope but
no pad in the calculator.
1316
00:54:42,921 --> 00:54:43,600
Yeah.
1317
00:54:43,601 --> 00:54:47,840
I bought a pack of 10
mini calculators off Amazon.
1318
00:54:47,841 --> 00:54:50,080
I just threw them in the box so everybody
1319
00:54:50,081 --> 00:54:55,080
gets their player color,
whatever it is, and a calculator.
1320
00:54:55,081 --> 00:54:59,960
It's such a great game that's
also that end to totally destroy it.
1321
00:54:59,961 --> 00:55:00,880
Yeah.
1322
00:55:00,881 --> 00:55:05,440
But when you don't see it yet, it's a
great ride until you see that ending.
1323
00:55:05,441 --> 00:55:06,040
Yeah.
1324
00:55:06,041 --> 00:55:06,840
Exactly.
1325
00:55:06,841 --> 00:55:07,240
All right.
1326
00:55:07,241 --> 00:55:10,480
So did this game replace
a previous game for you?
1327
00:55:10,481 --> 00:55:11,840
And I'll go ahead and answer first.
1328
00:55:11,841 --> 00:55:14,880
And I suspect I'm
actually going to possibly--
1329
00:55:14,881 --> 00:55:16,520
but I'm not going to
say look about it works.
1330
00:55:16,521 --> 00:55:18,120
I might be getting in Paul's way here.
1331
00:55:18,121 --> 00:55:20,160
For me, it replaced Fox in the forest.
1332
00:55:20,161 --> 00:55:23,400
But not Fox in the forest duet
since that one is a cooperative game.
1333
00:55:23,401 --> 00:55:25,280
But I really can't imagine wanting
1334
00:55:25,281 --> 00:55:28,960
to play Fox in the forest instead, given
the same amount of time for each game.
1335
00:55:28,961 --> 00:55:29,840
What did you have, Paul?
1336
00:55:29,841 --> 00:55:32,640
Well, I still haven't adored
Fox in the forest duet.
1337
00:55:32,641 --> 00:55:34,640
I have never played Fox in the forest.
1338
00:55:34,641 --> 00:55:35,600
OK.
1339
00:55:35,601 --> 00:55:40,400
So for me, there is no specific
game that Forest Shuffle has replaced.
1340
00:55:40,401 --> 00:55:46,720
It has just stolen time from all the games
I used to play to make a space for itself.
1341
00:55:46,721 --> 00:55:47,240
OK.
1342
00:55:47,241 --> 00:55:48,520
That's a great answer.
1343
00:55:48,521 --> 00:55:51,720
Well, often for this, we say
no, it hasn't replaced a game
1344
00:55:51,721 --> 00:55:55,200
because it's a new space
or a new kind of game.
1345
00:55:55,201 --> 00:55:59,880
In this case, it hasn't replaced a game
because all of the predecessors that we've
1346
00:55:59,881 --> 00:56:03,400
mentioned, I would
rather play over this game.
1347
00:56:03,401 --> 00:56:08,200
So I would rather play Race for the Galaxy.
1348
00:56:08,201 --> 00:56:10,120
Yeah, right.
1349
00:56:10,121 --> 00:56:11,880
Well, no, it hasn't been replaced.
1350
00:56:11,881 --> 00:56:13,160
Those games came before it.
1351
00:56:13,161 --> 00:56:15,040
But I would rather play Lost Cities.
1352
00:56:15,041 --> 00:56:16,280
I'd rather play San Juan.
1353
00:56:16,281 --> 00:56:20,120
And I'd rather play Race for
the Galaxy before the Galaxy.
1354
00:56:20,121 --> 00:56:21,480
Though this is great.
1355
00:56:21,481 --> 00:56:22,880
I'm not knocking the game that much.
1356
00:56:22,881 --> 00:56:26,240
It's just the shoulders that it
stands on are better than it.
1357
00:56:26,241 --> 00:56:26,800
Right.
1358
00:56:26,801 --> 00:56:30,120
I would have to change the
composition of the next question
1359
00:56:30,121 --> 00:56:33,880
to be more like, what are the
games that this did not displace?
1360
00:56:33,881 --> 00:56:34,240
Right.
1361
00:56:34,241 --> 00:56:35,720
They didn't try it.
1362
00:56:35,721 --> 00:56:39,160
They tried to stand on its
corner, but it didn't take it.
1363
00:56:39,161 --> 00:56:41,360
That's actually probably
a better question to ask
1364
00:56:41,361 --> 00:56:43,920
because I think it's new
enough that if I were to ask,
1365
00:56:43,921 --> 00:56:46,680
has this been replaced
by anything, the answers?
1366
00:56:46,681 --> 00:56:48,440
No.
1367
00:56:48,441 --> 00:56:52,000
That Dave's answer is Rummy.
1368
00:56:52,001 --> 00:56:53,800
Dave's answer is three card Monty.
1369
00:56:53,801 --> 00:56:54,920
Yeah.
1370
00:56:54,921 --> 00:56:55,440
All right.
1371
00:56:55,441 --> 00:56:59,160
Soundtrack, what music would
you want to listen to while playing?
1372
00:56:59,161 --> 00:57:00,680
And be it Sounds of the Forest.
1373
00:57:00,681 --> 00:57:01,240
OK.
1374
00:57:01,241 --> 00:57:01,480
Yeah.
1375
00:57:01,481 --> 00:57:03,560
Since this theme has come up a few times,
1376
00:57:03,561 --> 00:57:05,640
I think we probably have
the exact same answers
1377
00:57:05,641 --> 00:57:08,800
as whatever last game we
had that was nature-themed.
1378
00:57:08,801 --> 00:57:11,600
And for me, it's just
nature sounds or spa music.
1379
00:57:11,601 --> 00:57:12,360
OK.
1380
00:57:12,361 --> 00:57:13,120
Yes.
1381
00:57:13,121 --> 00:57:14,720
Absolutely, that will work.
1382
00:57:14,721 --> 00:57:17,840
I forced myself to find a different answer.
1383
00:57:17,841 --> 00:57:20,000
And I didn't go with, you know, Vivaldi.
1384
00:57:20,001 --> 00:57:24,280
I went this time with Mysterious
Forest by Frederick Chopin.
1385
00:57:24,281 --> 00:57:24,920
Oh.
1386
00:57:24,921 --> 00:57:27,960
All right, is that Chopin making
another appearance on our podcaster?
1387
00:57:27,961 --> 00:57:28,840
Is that his first?
1388
00:57:28,841 --> 00:57:29,720
I don't remember.
1389
00:57:29,721 --> 00:57:30,400
I don't know.
1390
00:57:30,401 --> 00:57:32,200
I think it might be the first appearance.
1391
00:57:32,201 --> 00:57:32,760
Yeah.
1392
00:57:32,761 --> 00:57:34,600
And once we do lacrimosa
or something like that,
1393
00:57:34,601 --> 00:57:38,040
we may not make maybe a while
before he gets another opportunity.
1394
00:57:38,041 --> 00:57:38,800
All right.
1395
00:57:38,801 --> 00:57:44,960
So rating on board game geeks scale of 1 to
10 now, how would you rate for a shuffle?
1396
00:57:44,961 --> 00:57:46,520
And Dave, I'm going to have you go last.
1397
00:57:46,521 --> 00:57:47,560
So Paul?
1398
00:57:47,561 --> 00:57:48,520
For me, it's an eight.
1399
00:57:48,521 --> 00:57:50,000
It's an eight, all right?
1400
00:57:50,001 --> 00:57:52,560
Which is a good score coming from you.
1401
00:57:52,561 --> 00:57:53,640
But why an eight?
1402
00:57:53,641 --> 00:57:57,400
Why an eight because I would recommend it
1403
00:57:57,401 --> 00:58:01,160
and never say no to
someone else asking to play it?
1404
00:58:01,161 --> 00:58:01,680
OK.
1405
00:58:01,681 --> 00:58:03,120
I had it down as a seven.
1406
00:58:03,121 --> 00:58:05,240
And I think it could still be climbing.
1407
00:58:05,241 --> 00:58:07,200
The thing about not
liking the end game score,
1408
00:58:07,201 --> 00:58:10,280
I mean, it doesn't kill the game for
me by any stretch of the imagination.
1409
00:58:10,281 --> 00:58:12,160
So one of the things
about finding something
1410
00:58:12,161 --> 00:58:16,400
that hasn't aged well or you don't like
about the game could be improved upon.
1411
00:58:16,401 --> 00:58:17,400
You're going to pick something.
1412
00:58:17,401 --> 00:58:19,680
But this is still a really good game.
1413
00:58:19,681 --> 00:58:21,440
And seven is a healthy score.
1414
00:58:21,441 --> 00:58:22,720
And we're still playing it.
1415
00:58:22,721 --> 00:58:24,360
And I'm looking forward
to playing it some more.
1416
00:58:24,361 --> 00:58:27,480
So Dave, what did you have it
down as since you've had the most
1417
00:58:27,481 --> 00:58:30,720
the largest journey with
the game on that front?
1418
00:58:30,721 --> 00:58:34,000
Well, right now, it's at a six for me.
1419
00:58:34,001 --> 00:58:34,800
It's a good game.
1420
00:58:34,801 --> 00:58:36,600
I'll play if somebody else wants to play.
1421
00:58:36,601 --> 00:58:39,720
Generally, there's probably
another game that I want to play.
1422
00:58:39,721 --> 00:58:43,120
I think it's a good game
that my plays of the game
1423
00:58:43,121 --> 00:58:45,320
have not really been
able to access as well.
1424
00:58:45,321 --> 00:58:48,200
And probably because I haven't
played as much two-player.
1425
00:58:48,201 --> 00:58:50,480
I think if I spent some time
really exploring the two-player
1426
00:58:50,481 --> 00:58:53,240
game that would probably
rise, most of my plays
1427
00:58:53,241 --> 00:58:58,200
have been on BGA, four-player
in person, four and five-player.
1428
00:58:58,201 --> 00:59:00,640
So I'm probably doing the
game a bit of a disservice
1429
00:59:00,641 --> 00:59:02,708
that maybe those player
counts shouldn't even be on
1430
00:59:02,709 --> 00:59:06,520
the box like we were
saying, but it's a six for me.
1431
00:59:06,521 --> 00:59:10,120
Like I said, all the games that came before
it, they kind of influenced this game.
1432
00:59:10,121 --> 00:59:12,000
I would rather play those games.
1433
00:59:12,001 --> 00:59:14,280
So just out of curiosity,
what do you rate, Rummy?
1434
00:59:14,281 --> 00:59:18,800
Rummy, that's an interesting question because
I haven't actually sat down to rate it.
1435
00:59:18,801 --> 00:59:21,400
So Rummy's a different
kind of experience, right?
1436
00:59:21,401 --> 00:59:26,520
I mean, it's not a game that I'm necessarily
playing for the mechanics of the game.
1437
00:59:26,521 --> 00:59:30,120
It's sitting around and having snacks
and visiting usually with family members.
1438
00:59:30,121 --> 00:59:31,640
Maybe you haven't seen for a while.
1439
00:59:31,641 --> 00:59:34,040
It always has a different environment.
1440
00:59:34,041 --> 00:59:36,280
I do quite like Jim Rummy.
1441
00:59:36,281 --> 00:59:38,120
That might actually be of the Rummies.
1442
00:59:38,121 --> 00:59:40,080
I might say Jim Rummy's a seven for me.
1443
00:59:40,081 --> 00:59:42,640
That's just a classic solid game.
1444
00:59:42,641 --> 00:59:43,160
Mm-hmm.
1445
00:59:43,161 --> 00:59:47,440
And what would you rate the
standard 52-card deck plus two jokers?
1446
00:59:47,441 --> 00:59:48,680
[LAUGHTER]
1447
00:59:48,681 --> 00:59:51,120
That might be a 10.
1448
00:59:51,121 --> 00:59:52,320
No, that's a great question.
1449
00:59:52,321 --> 00:59:54,000
That might be a 10, honestly.
1450
00:59:54,001 --> 00:59:55,120
I think it is.
1451
00:59:55,121 --> 00:59:57,560
That in a book of oil, I'm ready to go.
1452
00:59:57,561 --> 00:59:58,360
Right?
1453
00:59:58,361 --> 00:59:58,880
Yeah.
1454
00:59:58,881 --> 01:00:00,508
So back to "For Shuffle.
1455
01:00:00,509 --> 01:00:03,760
" Is it replayable on how soon
do you want to revisit the game?
1456
01:00:03,761 --> 01:00:05,800
Paul, I'm going to let
you go last this time.
1457
01:00:05,801 --> 01:00:07,680
So Dave, I'll let you go first.
1458
01:00:07,681 --> 01:00:11,360
Look, I say this a lot too much,
probably on every episode.
1459
01:00:11,361 --> 01:00:15,320
But it's a game where if
you're going to replay it,
1460
01:00:15,321 --> 01:00:17,880
or don't bother, don't
play this once or twice.
1461
01:00:17,881 --> 01:00:21,400
Because, again, it has that
learning curve for the deck.
1462
01:00:21,401 --> 01:00:25,800
It's really not going to start to illuminate,
or bloom as a game, and tell you're
1463
01:00:25,801 --> 01:00:28,320
familiar with the
possibilities that are out there.
1464
01:00:28,321 --> 01:00:31,800
So if you're not going to play it
five to 10 times, don't play at once.
1465
01:00:31,801 --> 01:00:34,720
So yes, it's replayable if it's playable.
1466
01:00:34,721 --> 01:00:35,520
Yeah.
1467
01:00:35,521 --> 01:00:39,800
You know, and I'm looking at my notes for
this, and I have something similar in that.
1468
01:00:39,801 --> 01:00:42,160
Yeah, it's absolutely
replayable, especially
1469
01:00:42,161 --> 01:00:46,040
with the muscle memory about the
power combinations and what's possible.
1470
01:00:46,041 --> 01:00:47,714
And I think you could
get the playing time
1471
01:00:47,715 --> 01:00:49,720
down to 30 minutes,
which would be amazing.
1472
01:00:49,721 --> 01:00:53,960
I mean, this game in a two-player, 30-minute
game would be an incredible experience.
1473
01:00:53,961 --> 01:00:55,280
All right, Paul, bring us home.
1474
01:00:55,281 --> 01:00:57,120
Yes, I've been playing every week or two.
1475
01:00:57,121 --> 01:01:03,120
And today's point, it took my wife eight
plays before she was able to beat me.
1476
01:01:03,121 --> 01:01:06,840
Wasn't she surprised when
you told her the exact number?
1477
01:01:06,841 --> 01:01:11,040
Yeah, she didn't realize
she'd played that many times.
1478
01:01:11,041 --> 01:01:12,320
Some games just take it.
1479
01:01:12,321 --> 01:01:16,280
It's that sixth player, that seventh
play, where the light comes on.
1480
01:01:16,281 --> 01:01:19,920
I've had this more than you guys, I
think, where I've grumbled about a game.
1481
01:01:19,921 --> 01:01:25,080
And because I trust you guys so much,
I'll keep grumbling, but I'll keep trying.
1482
01:01:25,081 --> 01:01:28,920
And then the light comes on one
day, and Russian railroads was won.
1483
01:01:28,921 --> 01:01:31,492
And I didn't enjoy it, and
maybe the fourth or fifth
1484
01:01:31,493 --> 01:01:33,520
play, I'm like, oh my
gosh, this is a great game.
1485
01:01:33,521 --> 01:01:34,960
And I don't know what it is.
1486
01:01:34,961 --> 01:01:37,120
And all of a sudden,
you're better than a skimp?
1487
01:01:37,121 --> 01:01:39,000
I don't know, now I'm certainly not.
1488
01:01:39,001 --> 01:01:41,760
Maybe I won the last one we
played, but that's probably it.
1489
01:01:41,761 --> 01:01:42,320
But yeah.
1490
01:01:42,321 --> 01:01:44,538
Well, all I can say is I
hope that the light turns
1491
01:01:44,539 --> 01:01:47,400
on for you, because it
doesn't always turn on.
1492
01:01:47,401 --> 01:01:47,920
Yeah.
1493
01:01:47,921 --> 01:01:48,800
Food chain magnet.
1494
01:01:48,801 --> 01:01:49,520
The Yunnan.
1495
01:01:49,521 --> 01:01:50,520
Yeah.
1496
01:01:50,521 --> 01:01:53,520
Oh, you guys do.
1497
01:01:53,521 --> 01:01:55,160
You gave it a fair shake.
1498
01:01:55,161 --> 01:01:56,640
I mean, you've got a lot of plays.
1499
01:01:56,641 --> 01:01:59,600
And if it hasn't taken by now, I
don't think it's going to happen.
1500
01:01:59,601 --> 01:02:02,280
I don't think it is either.
1501
01:02:02,281 --> 01:02:05,720
All right, and without the third
winner card has been drawn.
1502
01:02:05,721 --> 01:02:08,200
For our next episode, I think
we're going to have the same crew,
1503
01:02:08,201 --> 01:02:12,560
and we're going to go digging for
ancient civilizations and their artifacts.
1504
01:02:12,561 --> 01:02:14,400
So thanks for being
available tonight, guys.
1505
01:02:14,401 --> 01:02:18,800
And goodness, can we get
to sleep at a reasonable hour?
1506
01:02:18,801 --> 01:02:22,440
Spring time will come.
1507
01:02:22,441 --> 01:02:23,000
All right, thanks.
1508
01:02:23,001 --> 01:02:24,400
That's a good one.
1509
01:02:24,401 --> 01:02:26,240
Thank you for
listening to "Replayable.
1510
01:02:26,241 --> 01:02:29,000
" Support for our podcast
comes from listeners like you.
1511
01:02:29,001 --> 01:02:32,320
You can find us online at
replayable.fm, on Twitter
1512
01:02:32,321 --> 01:02:35,896
as "Replayable FM," and on
Instagram as "Replayable FM.
1513
01:02:35,897 --> 01:02:39,480
" You can also join our team
at patreon.com/replayable.
1514
01:02:39,481 --> 01:02:41,120
Thank you for your support.
1515
01:02:41,121 --> 01:02:44,760
We welcome your feedback, which is the
only way that we are going to get better.
1516
01:02:44,761 --> 01:02:48,880
You can get in touch with us via
email at feedback@replayable.fm.
1517
01:02:48,881 --> 01:02:50,760
And if you're interested in sponsoring us,
1518
01:02:50,761 --> 01:02:54,640
then please contact us at
sponsors@replayable.fm.
1519
01:02:54,641 --> 01:02:57,560
[MUSIC PLAYING]
1520
01:02:57,561 --> 01:03:00,600
[MUSIC PLAYING]
1521
01:03:00,601 --> 01:03:03,660
[MUSIC PLAYING]
1522
01:03:03,661 --> 01:03:07,000
[MUSIC PLAYING]
1523
01:03:07,001 --> 01:03:10,340
[MUSIC PLAYING]
1524
01:03:10,341 --> 01:03:12,920
(gentle music)
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,580
(upbeat music)
2
00:00:02,581 --> 00:00:22,960
Welcome to replayable,
where we go into depth
3
00:00:22,961 --> 00:00:26,880
on our favorite tabletop games that
keep us coming back again and again.
4
00:00:26,881 --> 00:00:30,560
I'm the start player Todd, and
today I'm joined by David and Paul.
5
00:00:30,561 --> 00:00:35,720
For our 31st episode, we'll be walking
amongst the trees in Forest Shuffle.
6
00:00:35,721 --> 00:00:38,720
It was designed by Koch and
released by Lookout Games
7
00:00:38,721 --> 00:00:43,320
in 2023 with artwork by
Tony Lobe and Judith Pailla.
8
00:00:43,321 --> 00:00:46,200
Are you two ready for a Serratinal Saunter?
9
00:00:46,201 --> 00:00:48,560
- I pitched my tent and
I got out my binoculars.
10
00:00:48,561 --> 00:00:50,640
I'm up for some nature watching right now.
11
00:00:50,641 --> 00:00:51,800
- There you go.
12
00:00:51,801 --> 00:00:53,680
- I'm ready to pet the deer.
13
00:00:53,681 --> 00:00:55,920
(laughing)
14
00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,526
Forest Shuffle is a card
game where players compete to
15
00:01:00,527 --> 00:01:04,080
gather the most valuable trees,
then attract species to them.
16
00:01:04,081 --> 00:01:08,160
The goal is to create the best
ecosystem for flora and fauna.
17
00:01:08,161 --> 00:01:10,360
The inclusion of multi-use cards means
18
00:01:10,361 --> 00:01:14,720
that when you play a card, you pay for
its cost using more cards from your hand.
19
00:01:14,721 --> 00:01:20,120
Discarded cards go into a clearing and are
eligible to be retrieved by other players.
20
00:01:20,121 --> 00:01:23,600
When the clearing reaches 10 or
more cards, they are all removed.
21
00:01:23,601 --> 00:01:25,400
At the start of the
game, three winter cards
22
00:01:25,401 --> 00:01:28,120
are placed in the bottom
third of the draw pile.
23
00:01:28,121 --> 00:01:31,480
The game ends when the
third winter card has been drawn.
24
00:01:31,481 --> 00:01:32,320
Let's see here.
25
00:01:32,321 --> 00:01:35,560
Which one of you has taken a
walk in the forest the most recently?
26
00:01:35,561 --> 00:01:37,400
- Unfortunately, it's probably not me.
27
00:01:37,401 --> 00:01:40,720
I really miss the woods and
I've been too urban for too long.
28
00:01:40,721 --> 00:01:45,760
- Yeah, I mean, I go to a urban
forest, a nature trail every Sunday.
29
00:01:45,761 --> 00:01:50,040
Whoa, but it's surrounded
by freeways and buildings.
30
00:01:50,041 --> 00:01:51,520
(laughing)
31
00:01:51,521 --> 00:01:53,480
- And plenty of wildlife, probably.
32
00:01:53,481 --> 00:01:54,960
Sneaking in the corners.
33
00:01:54,961 --> 00:01:56,120
- Oh, yeah.
34
00:01:56,121 --> 00:01:58,120
- You get to start us off here.
35
00:01:58,121 --> 00:02:02,160
2023, if you have looked at
the games that were released,
36
00:02:02,161 --> 00:02:05,720
they're quite a few that have
received a lot of critical acclaim.
37
00:02:05,721 --> 00:02:07,800
I mean, this seems
like it was a banner year.
38
00:02:07,801 --> 00:02:09,760
I've worked on those one amongst many.
39
00:02:09,761 --> 00:02:12,600
What are some of your favorites
that were released last year
40
00:02:12,601 --> 00:02:14,960
and how do you think
forest shuffle stacks up?
41
00:02:14,961 --> 00:02:18,160
- Well, for me, my
favorite is for a shuffle.
42
00:02:18,161 --> 00:02:19,520
(laughing)
43
00:02:19,521 --> 00:02:23,000
It is my most played game from 2023.
44
00:02:23,001 --> 00:02:27,250
- Yeah, I have to also
shout out to Dune Imperium
45
00:02:27,251 --> 00:02:31,720
Uprising, Sky Team, and Great
Western Trail New Zealand.
46
00:02:31,721 --> 00:02:33,600
Those are also favorites of mine.
47
00:02:33,601 --> 00:02:34,440
- Mm-hmm.
48
00:02:34,441 --> 00:02:37,680
Yeah, I think Great Western Trail
New Zealand, more is to be seen.
49
00:02:37,681 --> 00:02:41,400
So I think that hasn't hit
the table for the last time.
50
00:02:41,401 --> 00:02:42,880
I think we'll be seeing
that quite a bit more.
51
00:02:42,881 --> 00:02:44,320
- Oh, I'd love to play again, yeah.
52
00:02:44,321 --> 00:02:45,160
- Yeah.
53
00:02:45,161 --> 00:02:47,360
Well, maybe started
a little earlier next time.
54
00:02:47,361 --> 00:02:48,960
(laughing)
55
00:02:48,961 --> 00:02:52,880
- Yeah, that was a painful
decision to play it through to the end.
56
00:02:52,881 --> 00:02:53,720
Last night.
57
00:02:53,721 --> 00:02:55,560
- Yeah, maybe we should
put some full disclosure
58
00:02:55,561 --> 00:02:57,960
is we're playing
this, we're last night,
59
00:02:57,961 --> 00:03:00,613
we played our game
night, Great Western Trail
60
00:03:00,614 --> 00:03:04,520
New Zealand, and we
went maybe one o'clock.
61
00:03:04,521 --> 00:03:05,360
- Right.
62
00:03:05,361 --> 00:03:06,520
- Right guys on the road home by one.
63
00:03:06,521 --> 00:03:07,360
- Yes.
64
00:03:07,361 --> 00:03:08,400
- A little after, yeah.
65
00:03:08,401 --> 00:03:11,360
- Yeah, and our days of staying
up all night are kind of behind us.
66
00:03:11,361 --> 00:03:14,200
So, I mean, this might be a little loopy.
67
00:03:14,201 --> 00:03:15,640
We'll see how this one goes tonight.
68
00:03:15,641 --> 00:03:18,800
- No, that's just, that's gonna
be pure quality content right there.
69
00:03:18,801 --> 00:03:19,720
- Yeah, yeah.
70
00:03:19,721 --> 00:03:24,880
- Well, look, of the games released in 2023,
at least you put together a list for us,
71
00:03:24,881 --> 00:03:29,240
which I think is just looking at it,
just a banner year almost for games.
72
00:03:29,241 --> 00:03:30,840
It's not letting up.
73
00:03:30,841 --> 00:03:33,120
We're getting year after
year of fantastic games.
74
00:03:33,121 --> 00:03:34,880
Of these games though,
I think Forest Shuffle
75
00:03:34,881 --> 00:03:37,800
is probably the most
OG game that I can see.
76
00:03:37,801 --> 00:03:40,280
So, the trend of modern games continues,
77
00:03:40,281 --> 00:03:43,560
but it's really happy to see
that some of these OG elements
78
00:03:43,561 --> 00:03:47,520
are kind of staying alive and
coming back at us at new fresh ways.
79
00:03:47,521 --> 00:03:51,000
- Well, Dave, how does it stack up
against, say, Earthborne Rangers?
80
00:03:51,001 --> 00:03:52,000
- Or Lorkana.
81
00:03:52,001 --> 00:03:56,200
- It's, well, Lorkana was also, I
wouldn't say an OG kind of game,
82
00:03:56,201 --> 00:03:58,566
but it's definitely an old
kind of game 'cause it's
83
00:03:58,567 --> 00:04:01,840
straight out of the 90s
collectible card game fad.
84
00:04:01,841 --> 00:04:07,080
But, I mean, stack up, Earthborne
Rangers is, it's not a new genre,
85
00:04:07,081 --> 00:04:09,480
and we'll talk about it more if
we ever get to it on this podcast,
86
00:04:09,481 --> 00:04:12,520
but it's expanding on
a relatively new genre.
87
00:04:12,521 --> 00:04:15,580
So, it's hard to even compare
'cause it's moving in such
88
00:04:15,581 --> 00:04:18,320
a different direction with
narrative and things like that.
89
00:04:18,321 --> 00:04:21,455
Or I'd be hard pressed to
compare them 'cause it's very much
90
00:04:21,456 --> 00:04:25,240
apples and oranges or
butterflies and mushrooms, I think.
91
00:04:25,241 --> 00:04:27,080
(laughing)
92
00:04:27,081 --> 00:04:28,840
Nice way to keep it on topic.
93
00:04:28,841 --> 00:04:31,120
Beyond that, you know, the White Castle,
94
00:04:31,121 --> 00:04:35,320
and I would say we have to get
to ride legacy that also came out.
95
00:04:35,321 --> 00:04:37,685
I mean, a lot of great
games, and Forest Shuffle
96
00:04:37,686 --> 00:04:41,520
manages to stand out
amongst such august company.
97
00:04:41,521 --> 00:04:43,579
A lot of it, I think,
has to do with that
98
00:04:43,580 --> 00:04:46,800
attractiveness of multi-use
cards and cards only.
99
00:04:46,801 --> 00:04:51,960
I mean, there's something elegant
and nostalgic about that format for me.
100
00:04:51,961 --> 00:04:53,960
Yeah, I can't put my finger on it.
101
00:04:53,961 --> 00:04:55,960
It's just a bit of druid
magic or something.
102
00:04:55,961 --> 00:04:56,960
(laughing)
103
00:04:56,961 --> 00:04:59,200
Well, I think in some ways, Todd
and I are saying the same thing.
104
00:04:59,201 --> 00:05:01,720
When I'm calling it OG,
you're calling it elegance,
105
00:05:01,721 --> 00:05:03,920
which is, I think, one
of the hallmarks of OG.
106
00:05:03,921 --> 00:05:05,720
When we look at these list of other games,
107
00:05:05,721 --> 00:05:10,034
I love doing Imperium and
our little players of Uprising
108
00:05:10,035 --> 00:05:13,240
look promising, but I wouldn't
call that an elegant game.
109
00:05:13,241 --> 00:05:17,720
It's fun for different reasons, but
Forest Shuffle has components
110
00:05:17,721 --> 00:05:20,280
straight out of games we
were playing 20 years ago,
111
00:05:20,281 --> 00:05:23,640
yet it doesn't feel like a
copycat or a rehash, really.
112
00:05:23,641 --> 00:05:25,880
They're almost kind of hidden in the game.
113
00:05:25,881 --> 00:05:29,120
Some specific elements that I
think I didn't see my first few plays,
114
00:05:29,121 --> 00:05:31,240
and once one of you
kind of illuminated it for me,
115
00:05:31,241 --> 00:05:33,720
I thought, oh, I can look at
this game in a whole new way,
116
00:05:33,721 --> 00:05:37,920
and I don't want to reveal that yet, but
we'll get to that as we talk about it more.
117
00:05:37,921 --> 00:05:38,760
Right.
118
00:05:38,761 --> 00:05:42,880
All right, how about continuing the
current trend of ecology-themed games?
119
00:05:42,881 --> 00:05:45,520
'Cause we've seen quite
a few of those recently, too.
120
00:05:45,521 --> 00:05:48,880
You know, as we move
away from colonial themes
121
00:05:48,881 --> 00:05:52,080
and spice trading themes
and some of these themes
122
00:05:52,081 --> 00:05:54,760
that were starting to get a
little tired in their own right,
123
00:05:54,761 --> 00:05:57,680
but also we were starting to see
kind of how they're problematic.
124
00:05:57,681 --> 00:05:58,520
Right.
125
00:05:58,521 --> 00:06:00,840
And so now we're getting
into anthropomorphized animals
126
00:06:00,841 --> 00:06:03,160
and a little more space
themes and things like that,
127
00:06:03,161 --> 00:06:06,000
and so the rise of the
nature-themed game makes sense
128
00:06:06,001 --> 00:06:08,720
because nobody's
offended by a beautiful forest.
129
00:06:08,721 --> 00:06:11,197
Yeah, you know, I gave
a shout out to Forest
130
00:06:11,198 --> 00:06:13,760
Shuffle back when we
did our Arknova podcast.
131
00:06:13,761 --> 00:06:17,662
And I think Forest
Shuffle takes it a step
132
00:06:17,663 --> 00:06:20,480
further in that it
doesn't have any plastic
133
00:06:20,481 --> 00:06:23,010
or components or
packaging, and from personal
134
00:06:23,011 --> 00:06:26,120
experience, I've played it
over a dozen times by hand,
135
00:06:26,121 --> 00:06:28,800
and it's still just as good
as the day I opened it.
136
00:06:28,801 --> 00:06:30,440
Yeah, we commented on that last night.
137
00:06:30,441 --> 00:06:33,880
I said, we were playing Paul's copy, and I
said, you're eventually gonna have to get
138
00:06:33,881 --> 00:06:37,360
these things sleeved because, you
know, they're gonna start to show where,
139
00:06:37,361 --> 00:06:39,680
and he goes, this is like
the 12th and 15th play.
140
00:06:39,681 --> 00:06:40,520
They're fine.
141
00:06:40,521 --> 00:06:43,120
They still feel brand new, and I
said, yeah, actually, that's true.
142
00:06:43,121 --> 00:06:44,440
They're holding up very well.
143
00:06:44,441 --> 00:06:46,120
They are, absolutely.
144
00:06:46,121 --> 00:06:50,040
All right, so let's talk about
some of the concepts of the game.
145
00:06:50,041 --> 00:06:51,440
Let's talk about the clearing.
146
00:06:51,441 --> 00:06:54,360
That's another one of
those features of this game
147
00:06:54,361 --> 00:06:58,200
that while I haven't seen it
done in this exact method
148
00:06:58,201 --> 00:07:01,280
or implementation, it
certainly feels familiar, right?
149
00:07:01,281 --> 00:07:03,720
As far as I'm gonna discard some cards,
150
00:07:03,721 --> 00:07:07,209
and then you have an opportunity
to benefit, perhaps, 'cause the
151
00:07:07,210 --> 00:07:10,400
thing I don't want may be the
exact card you were looking for.
152
00:07:10,401 --> 00:07:14,520
How do you like the mechanism of the
clearing and perhaps the timing issue of it?
153
00:07:14,521 --> 00:07:18,400
- Yeah, it's as old as
Majang or Rummy, right?
154
00:07:18,401 --> 00:07:22,160
Where part of the game is
picking up your opponent's discards.
155
00:07:22,161 --> 00:07:25,000
But one of the things that
makes the clearing special to me
156
00:07:25,001 --> 00:07:27,800
is that if you know your
opponent wants a card,
157
00:07:27,801 --> 00:07:31,640
you can time your discard
such that they can't get to it
158
00:07:31,641 --> 00:07:35,600
since the clearing is wiped
whenever it reaches 10, right?
159
00:07:35,601 --> 00:07:38,164
- That's exactly what I
was gonna say, is it may feel
160
00:07:38,165 --> 00:07:42,400
familiar because it's from the
1800s in a game called Rummy.
161
00:07:42,401 --> 00:07:43,960
- That's why we deal.
162
00:07:43,961 --> 00:07:44,800
- That's what we deal with.
163
00:07:44,801 --> 00:07:46,120
- We're that old, no.
164
00:07:46,121 --> 00:07:48,600
(all laughing)
165
00:07:48,601 --> 00:07:50,200
- Today it feels like it.
166
00:07:50,201 --> 00:07:53,200
But no, that idea where
I can't use this card,
167
00:07:53,201 --> 00:07:55,703
but I know you can,
so I can't safely discard
168
00:07:55,704 --> 00:07:58,040
it, it creates a nice
tension in the game.
169
00:07:58,041 --> 00:08:00,680
And I really like what Paul
was bringing up on that too,
170
00:08:00,681 --> 00:08:05,080
that idea of timing that discard
to get that wiped off of the board.
171
00:08:05,081 --> 00:08:09,440
I had a few interesting decisions on that
last night when we played because I was,
172
00:08:09,441 --> 00:08:13,720
what Paul and Greg were both going
for, what was the tree you were going for?
173
00:08:13,721 --> 00:08:15,280
- The horse chestnuts.
174
00:08:15,281 --> 00:08:16,480
- The horse chestnuts.
175
00:08:16,481 --> 00:08:18,920
And Greg was closer to me in turn order.
176
00:08:18,921 --> 00:08:22,240
So I knew, and I was holding
one, and I really wanted to discard it,
177
00:08:22,241 --> 00:08:25,080
but if I knew Greg's gonna
get that card and put it into play.
178
00:08:25,081 --> 00:08:27,320
And the same time,
Todd and I were competing
179
00:08:27,321 --> 00:08:30,000
on the Linden tree, as far as
who's gonna have the most.
180
00:08:30,001 --> 00:08:33,880
And I had a Linden tree, I was ready
to discard 'cause I felt like I had enough.
181
00:08:33,881 --> 00:08:36,050
But I needed to time
both of those were, I didn't
182
00:08:36,051 --> 00:08:38,560
want either of those to get
into your two guys' hands.
183
00:08:38,561 --> 00:08:42,800
And it made for an interesting tension as
I was playing through trying to accomplish
184
00:08:42,801 --> 00:08:46,840
what I wanna accomplish, but also put the
kabosh on what you're trying to accomplish.
185
00:08:46,841 --> 00:08:47,680
- Very true.
186
00:08:47,681 --> 00:08:51,800
Yeah, it reminds me of
some of the classic OG games
187
00:08:51,801 --> 00:08:56,120
that have strong left-right bindings
where you see someone doing something.
188
00:08:56,121 --> 00:08:58,660
And if you're sitting
immediately preceding
189
00:08:58,661 --> 00:09:00,640
them in turn order,
you start copying them
190
00:09:00,641 --> 00:09:04,840
because you get to scoop up on all the same
things and prevent them from getting any.
191
00:09:04,841 --> 00:09:08,040
- Right, in fact I think Greg
had a similar experience
192
00:09:08,041 --> 00:09:11,720
to that exact thing where
he saw what you were doing
193
00:09:11,721 --> 00:09:16,160
and recognized that he should have
been picking up those grids out of you.
194
00:09:16,161 --> 00:09:19,360
- Yeah, so I started the
game by playing a chestnut
195
00:09:19,361 --> 00:09:21,632
and then Greg's like,
oh, instead of actually
196
00:09:21,633 --> 00:09:24,720
discarding these, I'm just
gonna play 'em instead.
197
00:09:24,721 --> 00:09:25,600
- Right, right.
198
00:09:25,601 --> 00:09:30,480
- Well, you did all right,
but since he was sitting
199
00:09:30,481 --> 00:09:32,600
to your immediate
right-- - We'll get to that.
200
00:09:32,601 --> 00:09:34,240
- Yeah, but yeah, since he was sitting
201
00:09:34,241 --> 00:09:36,360
to your immediate right,
that was gonna hinder,
202
00:09:36,361 --> 00:09:37,738
I mean, you certainly
weren't gonna see any
203
00:09:37,739 --> 00:09:39,720
of them in the discarding
or in the clearing
204
00:09:39,721 --> 00:09:42,400
unless something popped up
from somebody playing a tree
205
00:09:42,401 --> 00:09:45,080
or Greg specifically playing
a tree or something like that.
206
00:09:45,081 --> 00:09:45,920
- Right.
207
00:09:45,921 --> 00:09:48,442
- But how many did you end
up getting, even with Greg
208
00:09:48,443 --> 00:09:50,960
actively trying to prevent you
from getting those chestnuts?
209
00:09:50,961 --> 00:09:52,520
How many did you get into play?
210
00:09:52,521 --> 00:09:54,040
- The two I started the game with.
211
00:09:54,041 --> 00:09:55,080
- Oh, and that was it?
212
00:09:55,081 --> 00:09:55,920
- Yeah.
213
00:09:55,921 --> 00:09:56,760
- Okay.
214
00:09:56,761 --> 00:09:59,680
- Yeah, and Dave, I remember
when you made that play
215
00:09:59,681 --> 00:10:04,160
and you got rid of the horse chestnut and
did you also get rid of the Linden tree?
216
00:10:04,161 --> 00:10:05,040
- That was later.
217
00:10:05,041 --> 00:10:05,880
- That was later?
218
00:10:05,881 --> 00:10:07,720
Well, on one of those, you also got rid
219
00:10:07,721 --> 00:10:11,800
of the last fire salamander that I was
waiting for, 'cause I already had two of them.
220
00:10:11,801 --> 00:10:14,440
And I remember I told you about--
- When he was in the clearing.
221
00:10:14,441 --> 00:10:15,280
- Yeah.
222
00:10:15,281 --> 00:10:16,520
- Yeah, well, he put it into the clearing,
223
00:10:16,521 --> 00:10:18,320
but then the clearing
got to 10 and got one.
224
00:10:18,321 --> 00:10:21,160
- I put it in the clearing,
but right, Dave saw that.
225
00:10:21,161 --> 00:10:24,240
- Did I?
226
00:10:24,241 --> 00:10:26,600
- Well, he said he
didn't, that was the thing.
227
00:10:26,601 --> 00:10:27,600
And I was like, I didn't.
228
00:10:27,601 --> 00:10:30,600
I was like, Dave, that was really well
timed 'cause, you know, I had two of those
229
00:10:30,601 --> 00:10:33,295
and that's the difference
between like 10 and 25
230
00:10:33,296 --> 00:10:35,480
points for the set, if
you can pick up the third.
231
00:10:35,481 --> 00:10:37,320
So it was a 15 point card for me.
232
00:10:37,321 --> 00:10:41,320
And Dave wiped the clearing,
unknowing that I was looking for.
233
00:10:41,321 --> 00:10:43,080
(laughing)
234
00:10:43,081 --> 00:10:45,880
- Even worse, my theme
of the night last night
235
00:10:45,881 --> 00:10:50,320
was to spoil you at every possible
turn, apparently unknowingly to me.
236
00:10:50,321 --> 00:10:52,440
- Yeah, the mission accomplished.
237
00:10:52,441 --> 00:10:55,800
Although, you know, you were playing
Linden trees, I was playing Linden bees.
238
00:10:55,801 --> 00:10:56,640
- Yeah.
239
00:10:56,641 --> 00:10:57,800
(laughing)
240
00:10:57,801 --> 00:11:00,285
- Well, but in some
ways, that's an element of
241
00:11:00,286 --> 00:11:02,440
the game I've been
grumbling about a little bit.
242
00:11:02,441 --> 00:11:05,560
I like keeping track of
a little bit of, you know,
243
00:11:05,561 --> 00:11:08,040
what you're doing and trying
to prevent you from doing that,
244
00:11:08,041 --> 00:11:10,440
but there's a lot that
other people are doing.
245
00:11:10,441 --> 00:11:13,960
So I had no idea that I
wiped that salamander for you.
246
00:11:13,961 --> 00:11:16,760
I mean, if I'd known, I
would have done it with Glee.
247
00:11:16,761 --> 00:11:17,784
- Right.
248
00:11:17,785 --> 00:11:22,400
(laughing) - But I was probably
playing into by giving people cards
249
00:11:22,401 --> 00:11:25,640
that helped them as much as I
was inadvertently disrupting them.
250
00:11:25,641 --> 00:11:30,080
And it's just, there's a lot going,
and this is in the multiplayer version.
251
00:11:30,081 --> 00:11:31,600
We were playing five last night,
252
00:11:31,601 --> 00:11:34,640
which pretty high player
count for this game, I think.
253
00:11:34,641 --> 00:11:35,960
- It's max.
254
00:11:35,961 --> 00:11:39,120
- So there's so many things
going on in other people's forests
255
00:11:39,121 --> 00:11:42,880
that it's very difficult to keep
track of what everybody's doing.
256
00:11:42,881 --> 00:11:46,280
- Yeah, and paying attention to it,
also just knowing what's possible.
257
00:11:46,281 --> 00:11:49,920
So there's definitely a
knowledge component to this game
258
00:11:49,921 --> 00:11:54,760
that far exceeds games that I would consider
to be like it, right, like in San Juan,
259
00:11:54,761 --> 00:11:57,600
you just need to know
that you have basically
260
00:11:57,601 --> 00:11:59,640
the three six buildings
that you can play,
261
00:11:59,641 --> 00:12:02,543
whether it's a city
hall, guild hall, or the
262
00:12:02,544 --> 00:12:04,800
triumphal arch, and how
those are constructed.
263
00:12:04,801 --> 00:12:07,880
But there are so many other
combos in Forest Chuffle
264
00:12:07,881 --> 00:12:11,080
that if there's a player
that knows what's out there
265
00:12:11,081 --> 00:12:14,400
and what's possible, they
definitely have a distinct advantage
266
00:12:14,401 --> 00:12:18,480
that I don't think is as easily
met because they're options.
267
00:12:18,481 --> 00:12:24,800
- I think it's pretty comparable to San
Juan as far as the knowledge benefit.
268
00:12:24,801 --> 00:12:26,240
There's definitely more cards,
269
00:12:26,241 --> 00:12:29,720
but in my opinion, a lot of the
combos are not that powerful,
270
00:12:29,721 --> 00:12:32,200
but there are a few that
are extremely powerful.
271
00:12:32,201 --> 00:12:33,240
- Yes, there are.
272
00:12:33,241 --> 00:12:35,920
- Well, I think I would
disagree a little bit on that
273
00:12:35,921 --> 00:12:38,478
because a key difference
between San Juan and Forest
274
00:12:38,479 --> 00:12:41,960
Chuffle for me is, and
San Juan, it's more of a race
275
00:12:41,961 --> 00:12:44,840
where I'm gonna be getting
good value out of my cards.
276
00:12:44,841 --> 00:12:47,529
And there's almost nothing
you can do that's gonna prevent
277
00:12:47,530 --> 00:12:50,000
me from getting X points
from this card that I play.
278
00:12:50,001 --> 00:12:53,040
Because you don't have to
worry about what you're discarding.
279
00:12:53,041 --> 00:12:57,400
- Right, well, I'm thinking in
the sense of the woodpecker,
280
00:12:57,401 --> 00:13:00,160
which scores based on if
nobody has more trees than you.
281
00:13:00,161 --> 00:13:01,920
- Oh, the comparative cards, yes.
282
00:13:01,921 --> 00:13:04,400
- Right, in San Juan,
there aren't any cards
283
00:13:04,401 --> 00:13:07,240
that I'm gonna play that may
be worth nothing at the end,
284
00:13:07,241 --> 00:13:10,040
without me knowing, like I
might play a six value card
285
00:13:10,041 --> 00:13:12,480
that's gonna have no value at
the end, but that's my own doing.
286
00:13:12,481 --> 00:13:16,800
But this idea of playing some
cards, maybe even doing well with it
287
00:13:16,801 --> 00:13:22,060
and somebody sneaking up on you with some
other way to outpace you in that element,
288
00:13:22,061 --> 00:13:25,920
and then you get nothing for
it, that I think is a little deflating.
289
00:13:25,921 --> 00:13:26,760
- Yeah, I agree.
290
00:13:26,761 --> 00:13:28,760
- And like the Linden
trees, it says right up front,
291
00:13:28,761 --> 00:13:32,620
it's worth one point or three points
if nobody else has more than you.
292
00:13:32,621 --> 00:13:35,380
So that one, you can see
where that trade off is gonna be.
293
00:13:35,381 --> 00:13:38,560
- Right, and I argue with
the others, you can see it too.
294
00:13:38,561 --> 00:13:42,680
And you call it deflating,
I call it invigorating.
295
00:13:42,681 --> 00:13:44,640
(laughing)
296
00:13:44,641 --> 00:13:47,360
- I think it's invigorating
once you know what to expect,
297
00:13:47,361 --> 00:13:51,480
but as you're still getting accustomed to
the game, I agree Dave, like it's deflating
298
00:13:51,481 --> 00:13:53,960
when I'm sitting over here
and I'm doing my combos,
299
00:13:53,961 --> 00:13:55,473
and I think I've got
a pretty good score
300
00:13:55,474 --> 00:13:58,120
going, and then it turns
out that Paul comes up
301
00:13:58,121 --> 00:14:03,480
with a combo that scored, what was it, 120
points between your wolves and your deer?
302
00:14:03,481 --> 00:14:06,000
- Oh yeah, I had six deer and two wolves,
303
00:14:06,001 --> 00:14:08,960
and it was like 114 just
from those eight cards.
304
00:14:08,961 --> 00:14:11,319
- Right, and Megan just
started laughing 'cause it was
305
00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,680
like what are the rest of
us even doing in this game?
306
00:14:14,681 --> 00:14:17,059
- That's right.
307
00:14:17,060 --> 00:14:19,760
(laughing) - Well the
element where Todd and I
308
00:14:19,761 --> 00:14:23,280
were competing for Linden
Trees, that I thought was a fun,
309
00:14:23,281 --> 00:14:25,040
I mean I wouldn't really
call it a cat and mouse game,
310
00:14:25,041 --> 00:14:28,000
but I was sitting two
players to your right.
311
00:14:28,001 --> 00:14:31,800
So I could kind of keep pace
with you playing Linden Trees.
312
00:14:31,801 --> 00:14:33,200
- You had a slight advantage, yeah.
313
00:14:33,201 --> 00:14:34,680
- Yeah, and I had a few in my hand,
314
00:14:34,681 --> 00:14:37,480
so at one point Todd asked me
how many Linden Trees you add,
315
00:14:37,481 --> 00:14:39,360
and my answer was always
gonna be one more than you,
316
00:14:39,361 --> 00:14:41,320
'cause if you play one,
I'll play another one.
317
00:14:41,321 --> 00:14:42,160
- Right.
318
00:14:42,161 --> 00:14:44,200
- What took me by
surprise is just I don't know
319
00:14:44,201 --> 00:14:46,520
what the deck well enough
is that bees count as trees,
320
00:14:46,521 --> 00:14:49,560
and that's the sort of photo
I've got from under you,
321
00:14:49,561 --> 00:14:52,160
saying that, I mean what
was my comment at the time?
322
00:14:52,161 --> 00:14:54,200
Is this supposed to make
me like the game more?
323
00:14:54,201 --> 00:14:55,040
(laughing)
324
00:14:55,041 --> 00:14:56,600
- It was exactly what it was.
325
00:14:56,601 --> 00:14:59,895
- It's this element,
this kind of gotcha
326
00:14:59,896 --> 00:15:02,920
surprise that familiarity
is totally gonna solve.
327
00:15:02,921 --> 00:15:04,400
- And that's what I'm saying, yeah.
328
00:15:04,401 --> 00:15:07,412
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's
a big enough deck where it's
329
00:15:07,413 --> 00:15:10,040
gonna take a few plays to
get that familiarity, like that.
330
00:15:10,041 --> 00:15:12,440
- It's a good demonic
though, bees count as trees.
331
00:15:12,441 --> 00:15:13,280
(laughing)
332
00:15:13,281 --> 00:15:15,000
- We'll never forget, will I?
333
00:15:15,001 --> 00:15:16,160
- No, no you won't.
334
00:15:16,161 --> 00:15:17,840
(laughing)
335
00:15:17,841 --> 00:15:21,138
All right, we talked about
the timing and the timing of
336
00:15:21,139 --> 00:15:24,520
the clearing as far as
being able to get rid of cards.
337
00:15:24,521 --> 00:15:28,760
How about the timing of the clearing
with respect to ending the game?
338
00:15:28,761 --> 00:15:30,120
- Oh, the winter cards?
339
00:15:30,121 --> 00:15:31,600
- Even at the beginning of the game,
340
00:15:31,601 --> 00:15:34,714
you could play a faster
game by always top
341
00:15:34,715 --> 00:15:36,560
decking instead of
drawing from the clearing.
342
00:15:36,561 --> 00:15:38,960
And that was something that
stood out to me even last night
343
00:15:38,961 --> 00:15:43,440
was like every time I draw two cards from
the clearing, I am prolonging this game.
344
00:15:43,441 --> 00:15:44,280
- Right.
345
00:15:44,281 --> 00:15:46,960
- And if those cards
really aren't adding value
346
00:15:46,961 --> 00:15:49,040
to my Tableau and
I'm just picking them up
347
00:15:49,041 --> 00:15:52,240
so that I can pay with them,
then I should just be top decking.
348
00:15:52,241 --> 00:15:56,600
- Well, it's the same
decision as Lost Cities.
349
00:15:56,601 --> 00:15:57,440
- Right.
350
00:15:57,441 --> 00:15:59,720
- Do you feel like
you're in a position to win
351
00:15:59,721 --> 00:16:02,320
if the game is extended
or do you feel like
352
00:16:02,321 --> 00:16:04,720
that's your opponent and
so you have to hurry it up?
353
00:16:04,721 --> 00:16:07,360
It really comes to a head when
you play this game to player.
354
00:16:07,361 --> 00:16:08,200
- Right.
355
00:16:08,201 --> 00:16:10,040
And I feel like one of you
should always be pushing.
356
00:16:10,041 --> 00:16:11,480
It's a little bit like
San Juan that way too,
357
00:16:11,481 --> 00:16:13,800
like somebody should be
pushing the game clock.
358
00:16:13,801 --> 00:16:14,760
And one's in the lead.
359
00:16:14,761 --> 00:16:15,600
- Right.
360
00:16:15,601 --> 00:16:19,280
Whoever's winning, basically, or
whoever needs the game to be shorter.
361
00:16:19,281 --> 00:16:20,120
- Right.
362
00:16:20,121 --> 00:16:21,400
- The race for the galaxy is the same way.
363
00:16:21,401 --> 00:16:24,200
One player wants the game to
go quicker than another player.
364
00:16:24,201 --> 00:16:25,040
- Right.
365
00:16:25,041 --> 00:16:29,720
And those positions may switch and do shift
many times during the course of the game.
366
00:16:29,721 --> 00:16:33,080
So how do you like that
inclusion for a shuffle?
367
00:16:33,081 --> 00:16:34,320
- I love the clearing.
368
00:16:34,321 --> 00:16:38,760
I think that's a big part of what
makes the game enjoyable for me.
369
00:16:38,761 --> 00:16:39,600
- Yeah, I agree.
370
00:16:39,601 --> 00:16:40,480
- It makes it totally wonderful.
371
00:16:40,481 --> 00:16:42,800
I love variable game lengths.
372
00:16:42,801 --> 00:16:45,920
We're player driven game
lengths where a player can put
373
00:16:45,921 --> 00:16:48,840
their foot on the gas or put their foot
on the brakes or something like that.
374
00:16:48,841 --> 00:16:52,440
I really enjoy that being a game,
especially introduced to that,
375
00:16:52,441 --> 00:16:56,480
a push your luck element where we're on
borrowed time, where this game's gonna,
376
00:16:56,481 --> 00:16:58,600
I don't know if I'm gonna
get another turn or not.
377
00:16:58,601 --> 00:17:02,240
That's a really juicy,
interesting decision space
378
00:17:02,241 --> 00:17:04,440
at the end of this game
when you're in that position.
379
00:17:04,441 --> 00:17:05,280
- Well, right.
380
00:17:05,281 --> 00:17:07,840
Because like in Lost Cities, I'm
sure we've done the thing, right,
381
00:17:07,841 --> 00:17:10,123
where you take the bottom
five cards and you set them and
382
00:17:10,124 --> 00:17:12,880
then you take the next five
and you set them crosswise.
383
00:17:12,881 --> 00:17:14,840
So it's like a visible game timer.
384
00:17:14,841 --> 00:17:18,240
You know how many cards are
remaining in the deck in Lost Cities.
385
00:17:18,241 --> 00:17:20,560
And then the game is going to
end when you reach the bottom.
386
00:17:20,561 --> 00:17:24,000
But this, you don't know when that
third winner card's gonna show up.
387
00:17:24,001 --> 00:17:28,080
You think if the game is better or worse
for that unknown ending on the timer?
388
00:17:28,081 --> 00:17:29,760
- For me, it's absolutely better.
389
00:17:29,761 --> 00:17:30,600
- Yeah.
390
00:17:30,601 --> 00:17:33,616
- Because if it is known,
then people are gonna start
391
00:17:33,617 --> 00:17:37,840
min-maxing and making
calculation after calculation,
392
00:17:37,841 --> 00:17:41,200
after analysis paralysis
to extend the game length.
393
00:17:41,201 --> 00:17:44,840
The variable ending keeps
it choppy and keeps it quick.
394
00:17:44,841 --> 00:17:47,865
- Yeah, I agree 100% on
that, where it starts to become
395
00:17:47,866 --> 00:17:50,440
calculable as to can I
squeeze out one more point?
396
00:17:50,441 --> 00:17:52,680
Can I rob you of one more point?
397
00:17:52,681 --> 00:17:56,520
And that's really gonna slow it down
like the end of an NBA basketball game.
398
00:17:56,521 --> 00:17:59,074
That part of the game,
it's similar to me to a game
399
00:17:59,075 --> 00:18:02,320
like Alhambra that wins
that last card gonna show up.
400
00:18:02,321 --> 00:18:03,920
How much more can I squeeze out?
401
00:18:03,921 --> 00:18:06,377
Because you've got that card
hidden somewhere at the lower
402
00:18:06,378 --> 00:18:09,440
portion of the deck that's
gonna jump at you by surprise.
403
00:18:09,441 --> 00:18:12,414
- Yeah, not last night's
game, but the one we played
404
00:18:12,415 --> 00:18:15,680
two weeks ago, we hit the
first two winter cards fast.
405
00:18:15,681 --> 00:18:20,320
And then the last one was in the last, I
don't know, five or six cards of the deck.
406
00:18:20,321 --> 00:18:24,600
So we had a long run of thinking
the game could end at any moment.
407
00:18:24,601 --> 00:18:26,280
- And being on pins and needles, yeah.
408
00:18:26,281 --> 00:18:27,480
- Am I gonna be able to draw again?
409
00:18:27,481 --> 00:18:29,480
Does it make sense for me to even try?
410
00:18:29,481 --> 00:18:31,440
And then the game kept going.
411
00:18:31,441 --> 00:18:34,600
It was great and it was also
agonizing at the same time.
412
00:18:34,601 --> 00:18:36,480
- Especially because I
don't know about you guys,
413
00:18:36,481 --> 00:18:41,160
but I was constantly trying to
get down to zero or one card.
414
00:18:41,161 --> 00:18:43,784
So I didn't feel like I
had held any points
415
00:18:43,785 --> 00:18:46,040
back, but the game
just kept going, right?
416
00:18:46,041 --> 00:18:49,160
- Yeah, you put it all out there.
417
00:18:49,161 --> 00:18:50,760
That happened to me
actually last night as well.
418
00:18:50,761 --> 00:18:53,000
I put it all out there and I
think this game needs to end
419
00:18:53,001 --> 00:18:56,880
because I need a turn to draw cards
and then a turn to play them again.
420
00:18:56,881 --> 00:18:58,760
Like I don't know if
I'm gonna get two turns.
421
00:18:58,761 --> 00:19:00,040
- Right. - So I, yeah.
422
00:19:00,041 --> 00:19:02,080
Ticket to ride does that
to you sometimes too,
423
00:19:02,081 --> 00:19:03,744
or right at the end,
like I don't have enough
424
00:19:03,745 --> 00:19:05,360
cards to play right
now, but if I draw them,
425
00:19:05,361 --> 00:19:08,160
I'm not gonna get another
play of putting drains out there.
426
00:19:08,161 --> 00:19:10,360
- Right.
Then it becomes a function of keeping track
427
00:19:10,361 --> 00:19:12,280
of how many cards everybody
else has in their hand,
428
00:19:12,281 --> 00:19:16,000
which works better in the
city versions of Ticket to Ride
429
00:19:16,001 --> 00:19:18,087
because you tend not
to hoard cards as much
430
00:19:18,088 --> 00:19:21,640
as you do in the full
versions of the games.
431
00:19:21,641 --> 00:19:23,640
Oh, you've got 12 cards
in your hand, you know?
432
00:19:23,641 --> 00:19:27,280
That doesn't happen much in the
like Ticket to Ride, New York or London.
433
00:19:27,281 --> 00:19:28,360
- So I do have a question for you guys.
434
00:19:28,361 --> 00:19:30,520
So in Ticket to Ride,
when I get to the end,
435
00:19:30,521 --> 00:19:32,640
if I'm holding a hand of 10
cards or something like that,
436
00:19:32,641 --> 00:19:36,680
I feel like I've very inefficiently
played to the end of the game here.
437
00:19:36,681 --> 00:19:38,920
Do you feel that way or
is that happening to you
438
00:19:38,921 --> 00:19:42,240
sometimes in Forest Shuffle where you get
to the end and you're holding six cards?
439
00:19:42,241 --> 00:19:45,480
You think, well, I really kind of
overshot my finished line here.
440
00:19:45,481 --> 00:19:48,082
- I mean, it happens to
me a lot, but I don't feel that
441
00:19:48,083 --> 00:19:51,520
way because I know that the
end game was basically random.
442
00:19:51,521 --> 00:19:52,720
Could have happened anytime.
443
00:19:52,721 --> 00:19:54,746
- Well, when you're
getting in that borrowed
444
00:19:54,747 --> 00:19:57,200
time of the third winter
is gonna show up.
445
00:19:57,201 --> 00:19:59,160
I mean, you can't plan three turns ahead.
446
00:19:59,161 --> 00:20:01,440
You can maybe plan a turn and a half ahead.
447
00:20:01,441 --> 00:20:03,120
So somewhere between one and two.
448
00:20:03,121 --> 00:20:07,000
- So it's really interesting because
I've played the game on BGA.
449
00:20:07,001 --> 00:20:10,880
I was in a tournament and
there was a very heated game
450
00:20:10,881 --> 00:20:13,033
where one of the
things I actually don't like
451
00:20:13,034 --> 00:20:16,400
on BGA is it allows you
to turn on live scoring.
452
00:20:16,401 --> 00:20:20,240
So BGA will tell you what
everybody's score is second by second.
453
00:20:20,241 --> 00:20:23,100
And I realized that even
though two winter cards
454
00:20:23,101 --> 00:20:28,720
were revealed, there was no way I was
gonna retake the lead in one or two turns.
455
00:20:28,721 --> 00:20:32,360
So I instead had to just
pray that the game continued
456
00:20:32,361 --> 00:20:35,040
until the last four or
five cards in the deck
457
00:20:35,041 --> 00:20:38,920
and strategically find some
new combos to overtake the lead.
458
00:20:38,921 --> 00:20:41,264
And it actually worked
out for me and the winter
459
00:20:41,265 --> 00:20:43,940
card was in fact the
very last card of the deck.
460
00:20:43,941 --> 00:20:44,920
- Oh wow, that game.
461
00:20:44,921 --> 00:20:45,760
- That's interesting.
462
00:20:45,761 --> 00:20:46,600
I like that.
463
00:20:46,601 --> 00:20:49,560
So you're almost in tilt mode
where you have to go big
464
00:20:49,561 --> 00:20:53,840
and if you get caught before you're ready,
oh well, you were gonna lose anyways.
465
00:20:53,841 --> 00:20:56,000
But if it shows up late
and you pull this off,
466
00:20:56,001 --> 00:20:57,560
then you'll be able
to overtake the leader.
467
00:20:57,561 --> 00:20:58,800
- That's what happened, yeah.
468
00:20:58,801 --> 00:20:59,640
- Wow.
469
00:20:59,641 --> 00:21:03,960
So I was holding a raccoon in my
hand when the game ended last night.
470
00:21:03,961 --> 00:21:07,920
And the plan was when I
thought it was getting ready to end,
471
00:21:07,921 --> 00:21:10,080
have enough cards in my
hand to make it worthwhile,
472
00:21:10,081 --> 00:21:13,120
but the raccoon allows
you to place all of the cards
473
00:21:13,121 --> 00:21:16,520
in your hand, any number of
cards in your hand, into your cave.
474
00:21:16,521 --> 00:21:21,440
And so it would have wiped my hand,
but if you think the game's gonna end soon,
475
00:21:21,441 --> 00:21:24,440
then it's not a bad way to
get extra points if you're--
476
00:21:24,441 --> 00:21:26,840
- Well, more importantly,
the raccoon replaces
477
00:21:26,841 --> 00:21:29,240
every card you put in your
cave with a draw from the deck.
478
00:21:29,241 --> 00:21:32,320
So it's gonna make that
winter happen too sweet.
479
00:21:32,321 --> 00:21:33,160
(laughs)
480
00:21:33,161 --> 00:21:36,560
- Yeah, so like my last turn as it turned
out, I should have played the raccoon
481
00:21:36,561 --> 00:21:38,600
'cause I could have hastened
the ending of the game.
482
00:21:38,601 --> 00:21:39,440
- Yes.
483
00:21:39,441 --> 00:21:41,440
- At least increase
the chances of it, yeah.
484
00:21:41,441 --> 00:21:44,520
- Yeah, I really love the
composition of these cards.
485
00:21:44,521 --> 00:21:48,120
Trees are an entire card, and
then you've got the split cards, right?
486
00:21:48,121 --> 00:21:49,000
Either left, right.
487
00:21:49,001 --> 00:21:52,880
And then the other side is gonna be hidden
behind the tree that you attach it to.
488
00:21:52,881 --> 00:21:55,040
And same thing with the
ones that are split, top, bottom.
489
00:21:55,041 --> 00:21:59,560
I think it's an ingenious mechanism,
and I also noticed that a lot of times
490
00:21:59,561 --> 00:22:03,886
there will be a wolf that
wants to eat the European
491
00:22:03,887 --> 00:22:06,000
hairs or a fox that wants
the European hairs,
492
00:22:06,001 --> 00:22:08,760
and there's a European hair
on the other half of the card.
493
00:22:08,761 --> 00:22:09,600
- Yep, right.
494
00:22:09,601 --> 00:22:10,440
(laughs)
495
00:22:10,441 --> 00:22:14,920
- And the same thing with bats, and I
think there's a bug that gives you a bonus
496
00:22:14,921 --> 00:22:16,800
depending on the number
of unique bats you have.
497
00:22:16,801 --> 00:22:18,520
But there's a bat on the same card,
498
00:22:18,521 --> 00:22:20,760
and I think it's interesting
the way that they make it
499
00:22:20,761 --> 00:22:24,720
agonizing that the thing you want to
collect is the thing you have to cover up.
500
00:22:24,721 --> 00:22:27,120
- Yeah, I think you mean the door mouse
501
00:22:27,121 --> 00:22:29,560
that's worth 15 points if
it's in the same tree as a bat.
502
00:22:29,561 --> 00:22:31,160
It's always paired with a bat.
503
00:22:31,161 --> 00:22:32,280
- Right, right.
504
00:22:32,281 --> 00:22:34,840
- Well, and that just plays
into hand management.
505
00:22:34,841 --> 00:22:38,718
So my first game, I think I
played every card with a hope
506
00:22:38,719 --> 00:22:41,520
and a dream, and that is
not the way to play this game,
507
00:22:41,521 --> 00:22:45,240
is to play a fox and hope
I draw some hairs later.
508
00:22:45,241 --> 00:22:46,720
It's like lost cities.
509
00:22:46,721 --> 00:22:50,370
If I think of every tree or
everything that goes on that tree
510
00:22:50,371 --> 00:22:53,920
as a new expedition, I'm gonna
wait until I build up in my hand.
511
00:22:53,921 --> 00:22:56,240
So I see, can I support this expedition?
512
00:22:56,241 --> 00:23:00,280
I'm not gonna spend all this money
on, I'll say the fox and the hairs.
513
00:23:00,281 --> 00:23:01,680
I'm not gonna spend
all this money on the fox,
514
00:23:01,681 --> 00:23:03,800
so I'm not gonna get
any hairs or vice versa.
515
00:23:03,801 --> 00:23:07,240
And that one's interesting too, because
you're better off playing the hairs first,
516
00:23:07,241 --> 00:23:09,600
because then when you play the
fox, you get to draw some cards.
517
00:23:09,601 --> 00:23:12,080
So even those start to
interact with each other
518
00:23:12,081 --> 00:23:14,240
as to which one I'm
gonna get out there first.
519
00:23:14,241 --> 00:23:16,800
And you can only hold
10 cards max in your hand,
520
00:23:16,801 --> 00:23:19,200
which is a frustrating
little thing going on.
521
00:23:19,201 --> 00:23:21,280
- Limitation. - I love that, yeah.
522
00:23:21,281 --> 00:23:25,280
And I agree to me, the pairing
of left, right and top, bottom,
523
00:23:25,281 --> 00:23:30,920
really add even more to the overhead
required to play this game well, yeah.
524
00:23:30,921 --> 00:23:34,840
- Yeah, at least being able to see the
combinations that you're gonna try to set up.
525
00:23:34,841 --> 00:23:37,920
Do you have a good way of organizing
your hand that you don't forget?
526
00:23:37,921 --> 00:23:40,040
'Cause I mean, there have
been times where I looked at man
527
00:23:40,041 --> 00:23:42,040
and I thought, okay, I'm
gonna play this a certain way.
528
00:23:42,041 --> 00:23:45,960
And then it comes my turn and I forgot that
that was the combination I was going for.
529
00:23:45,961 --> 00:23:49,400
And I almost discarded a key
card for it to pay for something.
530
00:23:49,401 --> 00:23:50,480
And I was like, oh, wait, no, no.
531
00:23:50,481 --> 00:23:51,680
I can't get rid of that card.
532
00:23:51,681 --> 00:23:54,880
I need to save that card
because it has whatever on it.
533
00:23:54,881 --> 00:23:58,840
It has a hair or it has a fox or it
has a wolf, whatever the case we be.
534
00:23:58,841 --> 00:24:02,080
- Yeah, personally, I put
the cards I wanna play
535
00:24:02,081 --> 00:24:06,440
closest to my face and the cards I
wanna discard closest to my hand.
536
00:24:06,441 --> 00:24:07,280
- Okay.
537
00:24:07,281 --> 00:24:11,120
- It's gin, Rummy, you know,
sets your working on cards
538
00:24:11,121 --> 00:24:13,880
that you don't wanna discard
because your neighbor wants them
539
00:24:13,881 --> 00:24:17,160
or it's same kind of thing, where
you have different places in your hand.
540
00:24:17,161 --> 00:24:21,840
I actually, last night at one point, I
had so many different things to consider.
541
00:24:21,841 --> 00:24:24,840
Cards I wanna discard,
cards I wanna discard but can't,
542
00:24:24,841 --> 00:24:28,640
cards I can play, cards I might
play, cards I definitely won't play.
543
00:24:28,641 --> 00:24:30,740
And so I started just
laying them out in little pot,
544
00:24:30,741 --> 00:24:33,320
just to get like four
little piles in front of you.
545
00:24:33,321 --> 00:24:34,720
Which is how my children play Rummy.
546
00:24:34,721 --> 00:24:36,000
You know, it's like, in my heart,
547
00:24:36,001 --> 00:24:38,760
those are my diamonds,
and I figured it works for them.
548
00:24:38,761 --> 00:24:40,320
You know, and then I
would pick them all back up
549
00:24:40,321 --> 00:24:43,880
and put them in order, but I just had
to take a page out of my kid's playbook.
550
00:24:43,881 --> 00:24:47,520
(laughing) Got it.
551
00:24:47,521 --> 00:24:49,440
So is there engine building?
552
00:24:49,441 --> 00:24:50,400
Absolutely.
553
00:24:50,401 --> 00:24:52,520
Yeah, this game is all about combos.
554
00:24:52,521 --> 00:24:55,000
Well, I don't think
combos in engine building
555
00:24:55,001 --> 00:24:56,840
are the same thing, is what
I mean by engine building
556
00:24:56,841 --> 00:25:00,560
is in the beginning of the game, are
you setting up some sort of economy?
557
00:25:00,561 --> 00:25:01,400
Hmm.
558
00:25:01,401 --> 00:25:03,160
Or do you just sometimes luck into it?
559
00:25:03,161 --> 00:25:04,480
I don't think you luck into it.
560
00:25:04,481 --> 00:25:06,760
So the combos I'm thinking of are not just
561
00:25:06,761 --> 00:25:10,160
two or three card combos, they're
like eight or nine card combos.
562
00:25:10,161 --> 00:25:11,000
Right.
563
00:25:11,001 --> 00:25:15,280
And once you see three
of that larger meta combo,
564
00:25:15,281 --> 00:25:19,560
I prefer to just dig in and try to
get as many of those as I can.
565
00:25:19,561 --> 00:25:20,520
Sure, right here.
566
00:25:20,521 --> 00:25:23,000
So you're not differentiating
between early game
567
00:25:23,001 --> 00:25:26,160
economy cards and mid
to late game VP cards.
568
00:25:26,161 --> 00:25:30,560
The only differentiation I
have is the mushrooms.
569
00:25:30,561 --> 00:25:31,400
Yeah.
570
00:25:31,401 --> 00:25:32,640
I will never play a mushroom late.
571
00:25:32,641 --> 00:25:34,000
Right, that makes sense.
572
00:25:34,001 --> 00:25:35,480
You don't have enough time to recoup.
573
00:25:35,481 --> 00:25:39,040
The value of the tempo
that you sacrifice to play it.
574
00:25:39,041 --> 00:25:39,880
Exactly.
575
00:25:39,881 --> 00:25:43,240
Going back to the clearing,
have you drafted four colors
576
00:25:43,241 --> 00:25:45,319
specifically so that
you can invoke the
577
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,400
binocular ability on a
card that you're holding?
578
00:25:47,401 --> 00:25:49,800
When it's taken another turn, absolutely.
579
00:25:49,801 --> 00:25:50,320
Hmm.
580
00:25:50,321 --> 00:25:50,720
OK.
581
00:25:50,721 --> 00:25:51,240
Yeah.
582
00:25:51,241 --> 00:25:54,360
Is that the only one that's worth
going after or is taking another turn?
583
00:25:54,361 --> 00:25:56,800
I think it's the most important one.
584
00:25:56,801 --> 00:26:00,040
But if I'm OK with extending
the game like we talked about,
585
00:26:00,041 --> 00:26:02,840
then I'll try to activate as
many binoculars as I can.
586
00:26:02,841 --> 00:26:05,400
The problem, though, is
that with the 10 card limit,
587
00:26:05,401 --> 00:26:08,560
I usually have four or
five cards I want to play.
588
00:26:08,561 --> 00:26:11,880
So I've only got room in
my hand for five or six cards.
589
00:26:11,881 --> 00:26:14,080
I can discard to put those out.
590
00:26:14,081 --> 00:26:18,240
Well, I may be seeing part of the reason
I've been doing so poorly in this game.
591
00:26:18,241 --> 00:26:22,040
But I hadn't thought
about that idea of drafting
592
00:26:22,041 --> 00:26:24,269
because they're
multi-use cards, of drafting
593
00:26:24,270 --> 00:26:26,840
cards specifically to
be used as payment.
594
00:26:26,841 --> 00:26:27,720
Absolutely.
595
00:26:27,721 --> 00:26:31,240
Usually, I'm trying to only
draft cards that I can use
596
00:26:31,241 --> 00:26:34,440
and then cards that don't quite
fit get defaulted to payment.
597
00:26:34,441 --> 00:26:37,040
But yeah, if there's a couple of maple tree
598
00:26:37,041 --> 00:26:41,240
icons sitting out there and I'm going to be
playing the maple tree or whatever it is,
599
00:26:41,241 --> 00:26:43,080
then I'm just looking
to pick up more cards.
600
00:26:43,081 --> 00:26:45,480
I've got to pay something
for the tree, I might as well.
601
00:26:45,481 --> 00:26:48,520
Because something, you
know, I have hesitation with that
602
00:26:48,521 --> 00:26:50,760
because I'm thinking
of, say, it's an extra turn,
603
00:26:50,761 --> 00:26:52,760
which like Paul was saying,
would be the most strongest,
604
00:26:52,761 --> 00:26:55,680
I'm spending a turn in order
to get an extra turn later.
605
00:26:55,681 --> 00:26:57,760
But I think, is that really
giving me any tempo?
606
00:26:57,761 --> 00:26:59,720
It goes with the hand management.
607
00:26:59,721 --> 00:27:01,880
It's allowing you to keep
the cards you want to play.
608
00:27:01,881 --> 00:27:02,560
Right.
609
00:27:02,561 --> 00:27:07,120
And even more, if the cards
you're using to gain that extra turn
610
00:27:07,121 --> 00:27:08,896
are ones you want to
play later, you can pick
611
00:27:08,897 --> 00:27:10,960
them right back up
again with that extra turn.
612
00:27:10,961 --> 00:27:12,920
Well, yeah, Todd pulled that off.
613
00:27:12,921 --> 00:27:13,920
I'm sure you did too.
614
00:27:13,921 --> 00:27:16,840
And, you know, a couple of
times last night where we put these
615
00:27:16,841 --> 00:27:19,020
juicy cards out in the
clearing and, oh, I get
616
00:27:19,021 --> 00:27:20,960
another turn, I'll just
take them right back.
617
00:27:20,961 --> 00:27:21,440
Right.
618
00:27:21,441 --> 00:27:24,160
And in one of those, I didn't
even need to discard the juicy card.
619
00:27:24,161 --> 00:27:27,480
I could have picked up a blind one
off the top of the deck and hung onto it.
620
00:27:27,481 --> 00:27:29,440
And I was doing that for color, that one.
621
00:27:29,441 --> 00:27:30,720
What about point scaling?
622
00:27:30,721 --> 00:27:32,960
So as the game draws near its conclusion,
623
00:27:32,961 --> 00:27:36,360
you should be either adding
to your existing power combos
624
00:27:36,361 --> 00:27:38,938
if you have them, or
hopefully finding the last
625
00:27:38,939 --> 00:27:41,280
card in a butterfly set,
something like that.
626
00:27:41,281 --> 00:27:44,000
Is there any rule of thumb that
when you think it's a last turn,
627
00:27:44,001 --> 00:27:46,392
you should be getting
at least, I don't know,
628
00:27:46,393 --> 00:27:48,840
three to five points for
a card that you play?
629
00:27:48,841 --> 00:27:50,520
Can you plan that specifically?
630
00:27:50,521 --> 00:27:52,760
I feel like when you're
getting in that borrowed time,
631
00:27:52,761 --> 00:27:56,080
each turn is what's the
max I can do right now.
632
00:27:56,081 --> 00:27:57,960
Because this could be my last.
633
00:27:57,961 --> 00:28:03,120
Yeah, to me, it really matters whether
or not I know my opponent's score.
634
00:28:03,121 --> 00:28:07,600
When we're playing face to face, I'm
not going to care what your score is.
635
00:28:07,601 --> 00:28:09,840
I'm just trying to play what's best for me.
636
00:28:09,841 --> 00:28:13,760
Well, you don't have to,
based on your score last night.
637
00:28:13,761 --> 00:28:17,680
When you have three times the
score of the person in second place.
638
00:28:17,681 --> 00:28:20,720
Like I said, in my story
about my online game,
639
00:28:20,721 --> 00:28:25,520
if I know the opponent's score, then, yeah,
sometimes it's just like, OK, I'm going
640
00:28:25,521 --> 00:28:27,135
to have to have three
turns of not scoring
641
00:28:27,136 --> 00:28:30,400
any points, so I can
score big with a combo.
642
00:28:30,401 --> 00:28:33,040
I would think in general,
though, the big combos,
643
00:28:33,041 --> 00:28:36,400
like the wolf and the deers,
or the fox and the hairs,
644
00:28:36,401 --> 00:28:39,400
those kinds of things, I think
those should have been planned
645
00:28:39,401 --> 00:28:43,000
out and executed by the time
you're getting into the bonus time.
646
00:28:43,001 --> 00:28:44,280
It can be a big game.
647
00:28:44,281 --> 00:28:47,560
If you're looking to top deck
a wolf, you might get lucky,
648
00:28:47,561 --> 00:28:49,640
but I don't think it's supposed
to be that kind of game.
649
00:28:49,641 --> 00:28:51,960
Yeah, I tell you what, last night's game,
650
00:28:51,961 --> 00:28:55,240
I got real frustrated
in that I played a card.
651
00:28:55,241 --> 00:28:59,760
I forget what kind of card it was, but it
allowed me to play an animal for free.
652
00:28:59,761 --> 00:29:01,040
Probably the badger.
653
00:29:01,041 --> 00:29:03,880
And the foxes are a
little expensive, right?
654
00:29:03,881 --> 00:29:06,520
As are the wolves, so I put a fox out there
655
00:29:06,521 --> 00:29:10,168
and I had one hair,
one additional hair in my
656
00:29:10,169 --> 00:29:11,920
hand, and I thought,
oh, this would be great.
657
00:29:11,921 --> 00:29:13,280
I'll go ahead and have lots of hairs.
658
00:29:13,281 --> 00:29:15,720
I think I had five of
them in the last game.
659
00:29:15,721 --> 00:29:17,200
And we just didn't see him.
660
00:29:17,201 --> 00:29:18,360
People were burying him.
661
00:29:18,361 --> 00:29:20,240
People were hiding him behind trees.
662
00:29:20,241 --> 00:29:23,280
There just were not a lot
of hairs in last night's game
663
00:29:23,281 --> 00:29:25,040
that got played, and
so that was one of those
664
00:29:25,041 --> 00:29:28,120
where I had invested in
the fox early, assuming
665
00:29:28,121 --> 00:29:30,600
I would see hairs,
but it didn't happen.
666
00:29:30,601 --> 00:29:32,000
Well, I was too, you're right.
667
00:29:32,001 --> 00:29:35,600
And so I was actively
trying to scoop up hairs
668
00:29:35,601 --> 00:29:38,160
or making sure they
just because I was also,
669
00:29:38,161 --> 00:29:40,280
I started the game
with a fox and a hair.
670
00:29:40,281 --> 00:29:42,760
So I knew I was fishing
for as many as I could get.
671
00:29:42,761 --> 00:29:43,600
Oh, okay.
672
00:29:43,601 --> 00:29:44,520
Interesting.
673
00:29:44,521 --> 00:29:47,160
I also had two hairs in my starting hand,
674
00:29:47,161 --> 00:29:50,800
but I just figured since it's a five player
game, they're not gonna be worthwhile.
675
00:29:50,801 --> 00:29:52,200
And you were right.
676
00:29:52,201 --> 00:29:55,840
But I'm one of the people who hid them
behind my trees by playing the other side.
677
00:29:55,841 --> 00:29:57,200
Yes, right.
678
00:29:57,201 --> 00:29:59,160
(laughing)
679
00:29:59,161 --> 00:30:01,560
Well, it was a good
strategy for you to follow.
680
00:30:01,561 --> 00:30:04,005
You know, we talked
about the cave a little
681
00:30:04,006 --> 00:30:06,680
bit, and honestly, I
don't think it's that good.
682
00:30:06,681 --> 00:30:10,160
It seems very weak, except
for very low scoring games.
683
00:30:10,161 --> 00:30:15,760
But I did notice when we were researching
for this podcast that the expansion
684
00:30:15,761 --> 00:30:20,400
does greatly increase the cave effectiveness
by having animals like vultures
685
00:30:20,401 --> 00:30:22,880
that give you extra
points for your cave cards.
686
00:30:22,881 --> 00:30:23,720
Ah!
687
00:30:23,721 --> 00:30:25,280
And I think that's interesting.
688
00:30:25,281 --> 00:30:26,120
Yeah.
689
00:30:26,121 --> 00:30:28,800
One card for me was worth
12th points in the cave, right?
690
00:30:28,801 --> 00:30:29,640
I had a bear.
691
00:30:29,641 --> 00:30:30,480
Bear, yeah.
692
00:30:30,481 --> 00:30:32,840
I've been holding onto
it just so I could time it.
693
00:30:32,841 --> 00:30:34,720
When it came around
the corner of Past Meghan,
694
00:30:34,721 --> 00:30:37,720
if there was a juicy clearing out there,
that was gonna worth a ton of points.
695
00:30:37,721 --> 00:30:39,280
Now's the time to play the bear.
696
00:30:39,281 --> 00:30:40,800
And that part worked out well.
697
00:30:40,801 --> 00:30:45,320
It seems as it is now in the base game,
the use of the cave is highly situational.
698
00:30:45,321 --> 00:30:47,657
If you get the opportunity
to jump on it, but you're
699
00:30:47,658 --> 00:30:49,880
not gonna necessarily
build your game around it.
700
00:30:49,881 --> 00:30:50,720
Right.
701
00:30:50,721 --> 00:30:55,480
Same with the most often forgotten
rule, at least amongst our group.
702
00:30:55,481 --> 00:30:56,840
(laughing)
703
00:30:56,841 --> 00:30:58,720
Absolutely, right?
704
00:30:58,721 --> 00:31:01,280
And that's the ability to
play a card is a sapling.
705
00:31:01,281 --> 00:31:03,320
If you need a tree and
you don't have a tree.
706
00:31:03,321 --> 00:31:04,160
Oh yeah.
707
00:31:04,161 --> 00:31:05,240
(laughing)
708
00:31:05,241 --> 00:31:07,440
So, you know, I think
that's especially important
709
00:31:07,441 --> 00:31:11,320
for what we talked about earlier
with the woodpecker or the moss.
710
00:31:11,321 --> 00:31:12,160
Right.
711
00:31:12,161 --> 00:31:14,419
You're just like, oh,
you're gonna come after
712
00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:16,240
me for taking my
woodpecker points away.
713
00:31:16,241 --> 00:31:17,880
I'm just gonna start playing saplings.
714
00:31:17,881 --> 00:31:21,000
And those saplings will count as
trees according to the woodpecker.
715
00:31:21,001 --> 00:31:23,560
Absolutely, they also count
as trees for the sycamore.
716
00:31:23,561 --> 00:31:25,520
'Cause they have the tree symbol on them.
717
00:31:25,521 --> 00:31:27,640
Woodpeckers can't pick saplings.
718
00:31:27,641 --> 00:31:28,640
Interesting.
719
00:31:28,641 --> 00:31:29,480
Okay.
720
00:31:29,481 --> 00:31:34,640
They're not worth points and they don't
have-- Yeah, it seems like a weak play.
721
00:31:34,641 --> 00:31:35,480
It's a weak play.
722
00:31:35,481 --> 00:31:38,160
I'd rather play a birch tree,
which draws me a card.
723
00:31:38,161 --> 00:31:39,080
Right.
724
00:31:39,081 --> 00:31:39,920
All right.
725
00:31:39,921 --> 00:31:41,400
With that, let's move on to the prompts.
726
00:31:41,401 --> 00:31:45,760
Wait in complexity on board
game geeks scale of one to five.
727
00:31:45,761 --> 00:31:48,680
How would you rate the
weight of Forest Shuffle
728
00:31:48,681 --> 00:31:50,800
and Paul, since you
won our game last night?
729
00:31:50,801 --> 00:31:52,600
Let us know how easy it is.
730
00:31:52,601 --> 00:31:54,760
Yeah, I rated it two.
731
00:31:54,761 --> 00:31:57,280
I think it only took one
play for my wife to get it.
732
00:31:57,281 --> 00:31:58,120
All right.
733
00:31:58,121 --> 00:31:59,440
Dave, what did you have it down as?
734
00:31:59,441 --> 00:32:00,680
It's clearly a two.
735
00:32:00,681 --> 00:32:02,520
I mean, it might start as a two and a half
736
00:32:02,521 --> 00:32:05,663
because here's another
big deck of cards I gotta
737
00:32:05,664 --> 00:32:07,800
learn before I can get
proficient at a game.
738
00:32:07,801 --> 00:32:10,800
And that's kind of the
way of things these days.
739
00:32:10,801 --> 00:32:14,680
But once you get some basic familiarity,
there's no surprises under the hood.
740
00:32:14,681 --> 00:32:16,480
The iconography is very good.
741
00:32:16,481 --> 00:32:18,600
What you're trying to do is very simple.
742
00:32:18,601 --> 00:32:21,200
The hand management is
one of the more exciting parts
743
00:32:21,201 --> 00:32:23,840
of the game, but it's not nothing
new in hand management.
744
00:32:23,841 --> 00:32:25,680
It's kind of things we
already know how to do.
745
00:32:25,681 --> 00:32:28,160
So yeah, it's absolutely a two in my book.
746
00:32:28,161 --> 00:32:29,000
Yeah.
747
00:32:29,001 --> 00:32:30,560
I had it down as a two as well.
748
00:32:30,561 --> 00:32:32,200
I think it's close to
another favorite of mine.
749
00:32:32,201 --> 00:32:33,480
I think they're similar in weight.
750
00:32:33,481 --> 00:32:36,880
There's definitely more to think about
than just draw a card and play a card.
751
00:32:36,881 --> 00:32:38,680
But there aren't a lot of fiddly rules.
752
00:32:38,681 --> 00:32:42,120
At least you probably some cards have
exceptions, but they're not too bad, right?
753
00:32:42,121 --> 00:32:44,520
Like the hair is being
able to have more than one
754
00:32:44,521 --> 00:32:46,480
on a side of a tree,
but that's not a big deal.
755
00:32:46,481 --> 00:32:47,400
It's right on the card.
756
00:32:47,401 --> 00:32:48,400
It's right on the card.
757
00:32:48,401 --> 00:32:49,240
Yeah.
758
00:32:49,241 --> 00:32:50,200
So I have it down as a two as well.
759
00:32:50,201 --> 00:32:52,200
Well, then something
like bees or trees though,
760
00:32:52,201 --> 00:32:54,360
and sometimes it's right
on somebody else's card.
761
00:32:54,361 --> 00:32:55,800
So, right?
762
00:32:55,801 --> 00:32:58,200
No, it's just, there's the learning curve
763
00:32:58,201 --> 00:33:00,720
of getting to know the deck,
what the possibilities are.
764
00:33:00,721 --> 00:33:03,160
And being able to identify
it from across the table.
765
00:33:03,161 --> 00:33:03,760
Yes.
766
00:33:03,761 --> 00:33:05,000
Right? So that's fair.
767
00:33:05,001 --> 00:33:06,920
So then strategy, how
much opportunity do you think
768
00:33:06,921 --> 00:33:09,720
there is for a strategy in
the game on the same scale?
769
00:33:09,721 --> 00:33:11,280
I rated it three.
770
00:33:11,281 --> 00:33:16,520
I think there is a good deal
of long-term planning early on,
771
00:33:16,521 --> 00:33:19,320
but you reach a point where
the deck gave you the cards
772
00:33:19,321 --> 00:33:21,320
you're going to get and you
just got to make the best of it.
773
00:33:21,321 --> 00:33:22,320
Mm-hmm.
774
00:33:22,321 --> 00:33:22,800
OK.
775
00:33:22,801 --> 00:33:26,040
I also had it down as a three,
mostly because it feels like
776
00:33:26,041 --> 00:33:28,956
the game, to me, is
really about curating your
777
00:33:28,957 --> 00:33:31,320
hand while you have
the opportunity to do so.
778
00:33:31,321 --> 00:33:36,440
And I love that constant anxiety of,
can I draw two more cards right now?
779
00:33:36,441 --> 00:33:38,800
But if I do, that might take me up to nine.
780
00:33:38,801 --> 00:33:42,200
And when it comes back around,
I'll only be able to pick up one card.
781
00:33:42,201 --> 00:33:44,720
So maybe I should play
something and get down to seven
782
00:33:44,721 --> 00:33:48,640
so that I have the opportunity of taking
two cards on the next turn if needed.
783
00:33:48,641 --> 00:33:51,760
I mean, that whole idea is
one of the things you're juggling
784
00:33:51,761 --> 00:33:54,520
while you're planning how
you're going to play your combo.
785
00:33:54,521 --> 00:33:56,200
So for me, it's also a three.
786
00:33:56,201 --> 00:33:58,200
Yeah, I'm locked step with you guys there.
787
00:33:58,201 --> 00:34:00,720
It's a strong three in strategy.
788
00:34:00,721 --> 00:34:03,000
And going, as we've
talked about in other games
789
00:34:03,001 --> 00:34:05,920
that we really liked, it's trying to
do what the game's telling you to do.
790
00:34:05,921 --> 00:34:07,480
If you're going to try to force a strategy,
791
00:34:07,481 --> 00:34:09,440
it's probably not going
to play out for you.
792
00:34:09,441 --> 00:34:11,920
So being able to zag when
the game tells you to zag
793
00:34:11,921 --> 00:34:14,760
and just being light on your
toes as you move forward.
794
00:34:14,761 --> 00:34:18,040
But knowing when to do
that and how to make the best
795
00:34:18,041 --> 00:34:19,840
of what's presented
for you, it's a good three.
796
00:34:19,841 --> 00:34:20,360
Yeah.
797
00:34:20,361 --> 00:34:21,960
It's hard to do that sometimes, right?
798
00:34:21,961 --> 00:34:25,920
I get pit bull locked on
this is what I want to do.
799
00:34:25,921 --> 00:34:29,000
And I start trying to force the game
to do something it doesn't want.
800
00:34:29,001 --> 00:34:30,520
So then Dave, what about luck?
801
00:34:30,521 --> 00:34:33,640
How much do you think luck plays a
factor on the same scale one to five?
802
00:34:33,641 --> 00:34:37,000
I think luck scales
directly with player count.
803
00:34:37,001 --> 00:34:40,720
So in a five player game,
luck is going to be much higher.
804
00:34:40,721 --> 00:34:41,520
Is it a five?
805
00:34:41,521 --> 00:34:43,520
[LAUGHTER]
806
00:34:43,521 --> 00:34:45,680
How about player count minus one?
807
00:34:45,681 --> 00:34:46,640
OK.
808
00:34:46,641 --> 00:34:49,440
So five player, I'm
going to give luck of four.
809
00:34:49,441 --> 00:34:50,760
Two player, it's a one.
810
00:34:50,761 --> 00:34:51,880
I'll stand by that.
811
00:34:51,881 --> 00:34:53,040
I think that's a mic drop.
812
00:34:53,041 --> 00:34:55,400
I like that answer, right?
813
00:34:55,401 --> 00:34:58,531
We've done minutes
per player count in time
814
00:34:58,532 --> 00:35:00,760
of games, but now we're
doing luck per player.
815
00:35:00,761 --> 00:35:02,920
You gave a function as an answer.
816
00:35:02,921 --> 00:35:04,360
I'm like player count minus one.
817
00:35:04,361 --> 00:35:06,800
Shaw dropped, yeah.
818
00:35:06,801 --> 00:35:08,960
But I'm not wrong, am I?
819
00:35:08,961 --> 00:35:12,734
Well, so two player,
the biggest butt-clinching
820
00:35:12,735 --> 00:35:15,400
moment is when you
play a tree mid game.
821
00:35:15,401 --> 00:35:15,880
Yeah.
822
00:35:15,881 --> 00:35:18,440
Because let's say you
need that third salamander.
823
00:35:18,441 --> 00:35:20,680
You're thinking to yourself,
when I play this tree,
824
00:35:20,681 --> 00:35:23,200
is that third salamander going
to be the card that flips out?
825
00:35:23,201 --> 00:35:25,840
And when it does, your opponent's
just going to take it right away.
826
00:35:25,841 --> 00:35:28,490
So that is the primary
source of luck in the two
827
00:35:28,491 --> 00:35:31,920
player game, is the tree
addition to the clearing.
828
00:35:31,921 --> 00:35:35,384
But overall, I just rated
it a three, because luck is
829
00:35:35,385 --> 00:35:39,240
definitely a factor, but I think
you can usually outplay it.
830
00:35:39,241 --> 00:35:39,880
Yeah.
831
00:35:39,881 --> 00:35:41,560
I originally had it down as a three, too,
832
00:35:41,561 --> 00:35:45,280
but I'm getting on board the player count
minus one butt, so I really liked that.
833
00:35:45,281 --> 00:35:49,440
[LAUGHTER] It makes sense.
834
00:35:49,441 --> 00:35:49,920
Yeah.
835
00:35:49,921 --> 00:35:51,886
So then theme, how much
do you think the theme has
836
00:35:51,887 --> 00:35:54,600
been integrated with the
game on the same scale?
837
00:35:54,601 --> 00:35:55,440
One to five.
838
00:35:55,441 --> 00:35:55,960
Paul?
839
00:35:55,961 --> 00:35:57,840
For me, it is a four.
840
00:35:57,841 --> 00:36:02,240
I really adore the theme of this game.
841
00:36:02,241 --> 00:36:05,320
It is just cute and adorable.
842
00:36:05,321 --> 00:36:07,513
The first several times I
played it, I thought it was
843
00:36:07,514 --> 00:36:11,160
friendly before finding out
it's actually quite cutthroat.
844
00:36:11,161 --> 00:36:15,800
And the component quality is
amazing and fitting for the theme.
845
00:36:15,801 --> 00:36:17,600
All right, and Dave, what
do you have for theme?
846
00:36:17,601 --> 00:36:19,200
I'm going to agree here.
847
00:36:19,201 --> 00:36:21,440
The theme is really solid here.
848
00:36:21,441 --> 00:36:24,280
Foxes eat hairs, fungi grow together.
849
00:36:24,281 --> 00:36:26,929
There's lots of stuff that
inform the mechanics
850
00:36:26,930 --> 00:36:29,200
of the game that
also fit thematically.
851
00:36:29,201 --> 00:36:31,320
I'm thinking it's a four, but I'm thinking
852
00:36:31,321 --> 00:36:35,120
I might bump it up again because
this being part of the lookout
853
00:36:35,121 --> 00:36:37,720
spiel, what do they call
it, the green line games?
854
00:36:37,721 --> 00:36:39,680
So they've gone a step
further with the theme
855
00:36:39,681 --> 00:36:42,200
by, like we mentioned in the
beginning, producing a game
856
00:36:42,201 --> 00:36:45,286
without plastics and
making a very low carbon
857
00:36:45,287 --> 00:36:48,200
footprint eco-friendly
biodegradable game.
858
00:36:48,201 --> 00:36:51,800
And so that in a nature themed game,
I feel like that gives it a little bump.
859
00:36:51,801 --> 00:36:53,720
So I'll give it a four plus.
860
00:36:53,721 --> 00:36:55,960
You'll give it a five.
861
00:36:55,961 --> 00:36:58,440
I don't know if I'm ready
to go to five, but why not?
862
00:36:58,441 --> 00:36:59,600
I could give it a five as well.
863
00:36:59,601 --> 00:37:00,560
I mean, the theme is strong.
864
00:37:00,561 --> 00:37:01,400
The theme is great.
865
00:37:01,401 --> 00:37:04,400
Like Paul was saying, it's
adorable, but also there's
866
00:37:04,401 --> 00:37:06,880
a lot going on here where
it makes it a solid game.
867
00:37:06,881 --> 00:37:08,840
Yeah, I mean, I had it
down as a four as well.
868
00:37:08,841 --> 00:37:13,200
I like the idea of a
meta point being added.
869
00:37:13,201 --> 00:37:15,880
4.1, yeah.
870
00:37:15,881 --> 00:37:16,840
That's pretty cool.
871
00:37:16,841 --> 00:37:18,040
All right, so favorite player count.
872
00:37:18,041 --> 00:37:19,280
What is it best played at?
873
00:37:19,281 --> 00:37:21,280
And I feel like we've hinted at it.
874
00:37:21,281 --> 00:37:23,640
So let's go ahead and codify the answer.
875
00:37:23,641 --> 00:37:26,320
Paul, what do you have down
as your favorite player account?
876
00:37:26,321 --> 00:37:28,400
I honestly haven't played
three player enough,
877
00:37:28,401 --> 00:37:30,480
but I think I prefer
two and three player,
878
00:37:30,481 --> 00:37:33,480
because as we discussed, it
has the least amount of luck.
879
00:37:33,481 --> 00:37:34,080
OK.
880
00:37:34,081 --> 00:37:38,240
And at least in your experience, would you
say that two players, the better option?
881
00:37:38,241 --> 00:37:40,480
Compared to four or five, I prefer two.
882
00:37:40,481 --> 00:37:40,960
Yeah.
883
00:37:40,961 --> 00:37:41,520
OK.
884
00:37:41,521 --> 00:37:43,040
Yeah, 100% on that.
885
00:37:43,041 --> 00:37:46,640
I wouldn't be mad if this were
marketed as a two player game.
886
00:37:46,641 --> 00:37:49,960
That wouldn't be strange
at all, if it just was part
887
00:37:49,961 --> 00:37:52,400
of the old Cosmos 2 player
line or something like that.
888
00:37:52,401 --> 00:37:53,080
Right.
889
00:37:53,081 --> 00:37:56,640
So I have this down at
three just because there
890
00:37:56,641 --> 00:38:00,560
aren't as many games that
I think play as well at three.
891
00:38:00,561 --> 00:38:02,520
And there are a lot of
games that play well at two.
892
00:38:02,521 --> 00:38:04,160
But two players also, excellent.
893
00:38:04,161 --> 00:38:06,000
Jill and I have played
this a couple of times,
894
00:38:06,001 --> 00:38:08,120
but nowhere near what
you have played, Paul.
895
00:38:08,121 --> 00:38:09,040
Yeah, I like Paul.
896
00:38:09,041 --> 00:38:11,040
I don't have a ton of
experience at three players,
897
00:38:11,041 --> 00:38:13,520
but at least in theory,
I'm not mad at it.
898
00:38:13,521 --> 00:38:15,280
I think three players.
899
00:38:15,281 --> 00:38:17,440
It seems like that would be very strong.
900
00:38:17,441 --> 00:38:20,120
Four and five, well, I guess
that hints into the next question.
901
00:38:20,121 --> 00:38:22,760
Four and five, we kind of start
to get into a different area here.
902
00:38:22,761 --> 00:38:24,320
All right, well, just keep rolling.
903
00:38:24,321 --> 00:38:28,360
So least you have a
player count, four or five.
904
00:38:28,361 --> 00:38:30,920
Five with four is a close runner up.
905
00:38:30,921 --> 00:38:31,920
It's OK.
906
00:38:31,921 --> 00:38:35,960
Your destiny, you start to lose control of
your own destiny, I think, in some points.
907
00:38:35,961 --> 00:38:38,440
The player binding gets very strong.
908
00:38:38,441 --> 00:38:42,320
The player next to you, your fate is
somewhat in their hands in some ways.
909
00:38:42,321 --> 00:38:45,800
And it's just-- it becomes a
much more chaotic game, I think.
910
00:38:45,801 --> 00:38:48,800
Yeah, I think five players, the
clear winner, for least favorite.
911
00:38:48,801 --> 00:38:50,200
I still enjoy four player.
912
00:38:50,201 --> 00:38:50,800
OK.
913
00:38:50,801 --> 00:38:52,040
Yeah, I had five done as well.
914
00:38:52,041 --> 00:38:55,480
But as I was thinking about
it, I guess it makes sense.
915
00:38:55,481 --> 00:38:59,250
I wonder if Dave and I were
going head to head on the Linden
916
00:38:59,251 --> 00:39:03,760
trees, and Greg and Paul were
going on the horse chestnuts.
917
00:39:03,761 --> 00:39:07,360
And Megan was just
playing it for the first time,
918
00:39:07,361 --> 00:39:11,240
so I don't think she really had a
strategy that she was pursuing.
919
00:39:11,241 --> 00:39:12,800
Well, she was doing butterflies.
920
00:39:12,801 --> 00:39:13,320
She was.
921
00:39:13,321 --> 00:39:14,360
She had something else.
922
00:39:14,361 --> 00:39:15,880
But nobody else was doing butterflies.
923
00:39:15,881 --> 00:39:21,160
So she was kind of an odd man out,
which I still think she didn't quite see.
924
00:39:21,161 --> 00:39:22,640
And that might have just been luck.
925
00:39:22,641 --> 00:39:24,080
She didn't really see as many butterflies.
926
00:39:24,081 --> 00:39:26,400
But none of us were really
scooping up the butterflies.
927
00:39:26,401 --> 00:39:27,920
I just think it didn't fall down for her.
928
00:39:27,921 --> 00:39:28,520
Right.
929
00:39:28,521 --> 00:39:31,080
But what I'm looking at
is, I think maybe at five,
930
00:39:31,081 --> 00:39:34,040
you get that one person
who slips through, right?
931
00:39:34,041 --> 00:39:37,680
And they're left alone, or
their swim lane is left alone,
932
00:39:37,681 --> 00:39:39,920
and they're able to get
a lot more points for it.
933
00:39:39,921 --> 00:39:42,080
Whereas, I think, in four, the likelihood
934
00:39:42,081 --> 00:39:45,760
that you end up colliding with
someone is actually a little more focused.
935
00:39:45,761 --> 00:39:49,920
Because there are more opportunities
to do things like collect hairs, right?
936
00:39:49,921 --> 00:39:55,120
At five, things are distributed enough that
it's harder to have a sustaining combo.
937
00:39:55,121 --> 00:39:56,440
So actual playing time.
938
00:39:56,441 --> 00:39:57,480
Boxes can lie.
939
00:39:57,481 --> 00:40:02,200
And this one says that the
playing time is 40 to 60 minutes.
940
00:40:02,201 --> 00:40:05,120
Do you find that to be
a good approximation?
941
00:40:05,121 --> 00:40:08,640
I think with experience, it
might be closer to 30 to 45.
942
00:40:08,641 --> 00:40:11,680
I mean, it's got a pretty good
bang-to-buck ratio on there.
943
00:40:11,681 --> 00:40:16,200
Is it-- it's almost filler territory once
everybody's familiar with the game.
944
00:40:16,201 --> 00:40:18,320
Yeah, I'll over half my
plays are two-player.
945
00:40:18,321 --> 00:40:23,040
But honestly, I don't think the play
time changes between player count.
946
00:40:23,041 --> 00:40:25,400
And my average play time is 41 minutes.
947
00:40:25,401 --> 00:40:26,240
Oh, wow.
948
00:40:26,241 --> 00:40:27,920
So what did we clock in last night?
949
00:40:27,921 --> 00:40:29,960
Was it 50, 45 minutes?
950
00:40:29,961 --> 00:40:31,240
It was less than 50.
951
00:40:31,241 --> 00:40:32,080
Yeah.
952
00:40:32,081 --> 00:40:33,960
It was 47.
953
00:40:33,961 --> 00:40:37,080
Well, I'm thinking, five players going to
be even slower because we're kind of BS
954
00:40:37,081 --> 00:40:39,520
in a little bit, and there's
a lot more table talk.
955
00:40:39,521 --> 00:40:41,600
And it was a teaching game for Megan.
956
00:40:41,601 --> 00:40:43,840
So that's always going to
get a new player at the table.
957
00:40:43,841 --> 00:40:45,200
And we still came in under 50.
958
00:40:45,201 --> 00:40:50,480
I've had our long two-player games, but
that's because we picked different swim lanes
959
00:40:50,481 --> 00:40:52,946
and kept picking up
what the other person was
960
00:40:52,947 --> 00:40:55,240
putting down, which is
into the game quite a bit.
961
00:40:55,241 --> 00:40:56,000
Amazing.
962
00:40:56,001 --> 00:40:56,480
OK.
963
00:40:56,481 --> 00:40:58,560
It seems like an actual good estimate
964
00:40:58,561 --> 00:41:01,760
that 40 to 60 minutes
for a game of four shuffle.
965
00:41:01,761 --> 00:41:03,811
Although I agree that
if you're both pushing
966
00:41:03,812 --> 00:41:06,160
it, it could get down
into the 30-minute range.
967
00:41:06,161 --> 00:41:10,120
So there is an expansion to this game,
but I don't have any experience with it.
968
00:41:10,121 --> 00:41:12,120
Do either of you know much about it?
969
00:41:12,121 --> 00:41:14,840
All you had mentioned is
something about caves and vultures.
970
00:41:14,841 --> 00:41:19,120
Yeah, it adds Alpine, Flora
and Fauna to the game.
971
00:41:19,121 --> 00:41:24,400
And the one thing I noticed that intrigues
me is it makes the cave more powerful.
972
00:41:24,401 --> 00:41:24,960
Yeah.
973
00:41:24,961 --> 00:41:25,440
OK.
974
00:41:25,441 --> 00:41:27,614
Well, so I'm going
to have to trust the
975
00:41:27,615 --> 00:41:31,080
designers on this one,
because this is the same--
976
00:41:31,081 --> 00:41:34,200
I mean, we'd have the same
conversation we did about wingspan.
977
00:41:34,201 --> 00:41:36,040
Arc Nova, we talked about this, too.
978
00:41:36,041 --> 00:41:38,120
We're basically splashing cards in.
979
00:41:38,121 --> 00:41:39,320
And so we're diluting it.
980
00:41:39,321 --> 00:41:45,320
So if I'm going for fox and hairs, well,
now I've got-- in fact, I wrote it down.
981
00:41:45,321 --> 00:41:47,120
We're adding 36 cards to the deck.
982
00:41:47,121 --> 00:41:48,440
So now I've diluted the deck.
983
00:41:48,441 --> 00:41:52,240
There's 36-- now 36 cards in the
deck that aren't going to work for me.
984
00:41:52,241 --> 00:41:56,600
We're also removing-- Well,
they are adding cards that do work.
985
00:41:56,601 --> 00:41:59,040
So the analogs count as deer.
986
00:41:59,041 --> 00:42:02,280
They have hairs that say
they count as European hairs.
987
00:42:02,281 --> 00:42:06,360
So they are weaving these
new cards into the old ones.
988
00:42:06,361 --> 00:42:06,760
Right.
989
00:42:06,761 --> 00:42:07,880
And that was going to be my next point.
990
00:42:07,881 --> 00:42:09,600
It was that I haven't played the expansion.
991
00:42:09,601 --> 00:42:15,680
But in its favor, it looks like all of the
cards fit in with the existing strategies.
992
00:42:15,681 --> 00:42:18,840
There may be some strategies,
like butterflies, might get diluted.
993
00:42:18,841 --> 00:42:20,200
I don't know if there's
any butterflies in the--
994
00:42:20,201 --> 00:42:21,680
Yeah, there's new butterflies as well.
995
00:42:21,681 --> 00:42:22,000
OK.
996
00:42:22,001 --> 00:42:26,120
So maybe if they're augmenting
every existing strategy,
997
00:42:26,121 --> 00:42:28,120
then I think I trust the
designers on this one.
998
00:42:28,121 --> 00:42:31,600
And it sounds like it might
just be good, clean, fun.
999
00:42:31,601 --> 00:42:35,760
I don't know the-- Yeah, I expect the only
thing it'll really do is extend play time.
1000
00:42:35,761 --> 00:42:37,600
Well, because there's more cards?
1001
00:42:37,601 --> 00:42:38,160
Yeah.
1002
00:42:38,161 --> 00:42:43,480
Well, we're adding 36 cards
and removing 15 to 25 more.
1003
00:42:43,481 --> 00:42:45,600
So we're-- though we're adding cards,
1004
00:42:45,601 --> 00:42:48,600
we're removing more cards
than we would normally remove.
1005
00:42:48,601 --> 00:42:52,880
So I think it kind of balances back
to the same-- we'll have to play it.
1006
00:42:52,881 --> 00:42:55,040
I'm kind of pulling it out of the air here.
1007
00:42:55,041 --> 00:42:56,600
But we'll have to play it and see.
1008
00:42:56,601 --> 00:42:58,960
But I don't think it's going
to extend it dramatically.
1009
00:42:58,961 --> 00:42:59,560
OK.
1010
00:42:59,561 --> 00:43:01,760
Most recognizable comparison.
1011
00:43:01,761 --> 00:43:06,240
What is the highest ranking game that
reminds you the most of Forest Shuffle?
1012
00:43:06,241 --> 00:43:06,960
Dave.
1013
00:43:06,961 --> 00:43:08,360
Well, thanks for letting me go first.
1014
00:43:08,361 --> 00:43:11,000
Now, we've already mentioned
my answer a couple of times.
1015
00:43:11,001 --> 00:43:15,720
So I first went into this game
in my first four plays, five plays.
1016
00:43:15,721 --> 00:43:19,880
I'm thinking this as a San Juan
comp, or something like that.
1017
00:43:19,881 --> 00:43:23,627
It was when, I think, one of
you mentioned how the clearing
1018
00:43:23,628 --> 00:43:26,640
is like Lost Cities, which is
my answer for this question.
1019
00:43:26,641 --> 00:43:29,880
It put this game in a
totally different light for me.
1020
00:43:29,881 --> 00:43:32,920
Thinking of each tree
or each strategy at least
1021
00:43:32,921 --> 00:43:35,960
as an expedition that I'm
going to prep for before I start
1022
00:43:35,961 --> 00:43:38,480
playing and try to
play it in a certain order
1023
00:43:38,481 --> 00:43:40,480
or keep it out of the
other player's hands.
1024
00:43:40,481 --> 00:43:42,480
And that illuminated the game for me.
1025
00:43:42,481 --> 00:43:45,200
And it made me like the
game quite a bit more.
1026
00:43:45,201 --> 00:43:47,720
And I just wasn't seeing
that for my first few plays.
1027
00:43:47,721 --> 00:43:50,960
But it's so obvious now that
somebody's mentioned it to me.
1028
00:43:50,961 --> 00:43:57,240
Well, this is like we always used to say,
this game is game X is game Y on steroids.
1029
00:43:57,241 --> 00:44:00,320
In some ways, I might say
this is a Lost Cities on steroids.
1030
00:44:00,321 --> 00:44:00,920
Yeah.
1031
00:44:00,921 --> 00:44:02,880
So Lost Cities was my answer, too.
1032
00:44:02,881 --> 00:44:05,040
But I did have a backup,
and that was San Juan.
1033
00:44:05,041 --> 00:44:06,880
So congratulations.
1034
00:44:06,881 --> 00:44:08,400
You nailed them both.
1035
00:44:08,401 --> 00:44:08,960
Yeah.
1036
00:44:08,961 --> 00:44:11,720
And if I go with the San Juan comparison,
1037
00:44:11,721 --> 00:44:13,651
we're back to hand
management and multi-use
1038
00:44:13,652 --> 00:44:16,360
cards, which is just a
winning mechanism for me.
1039
00:44:16,361 --> 00:44:18,040
I absolutely adore it.
1040
00:44:18,041 --> 00:44:20,040
So I was really happy to see it here.
1041
00:44:20,041 --> 00:44:22,960
But of course, in San Juan, there
is no clearing mechanism there.
1042
00:44:22,961 --> 00:44:25,800
If you discard a card,
you won't see it again
1043
00:44:25,801 --> 00:44:27,858
until you've run all the
way through the deck and
1044
00:44:27,859 --> 00:44:30,040
reshuffled and brought it
back into the draw deck.
1045
00:44:30,041 --> 00:44:31,160
Paul, what did you have?
1046
00:44:31,161 --> 00:44:35,000
My most recognized little
comparison is Glory to Rome.
1047
00:44:35,001 --> 00:44:35,760
There you go.
1048
00:44:35,761 --> 00:44:37,680
This game is all about combos.
1049
00:44:37,681 --> 00:44:41,440
And Glory to Rome has some of
the pickup which you put down as well.
1050
00:44:41,441 --> 00:44:44,720
But if you want to win,
you get a good combo.
1051
00:44:44,721 --> 00:44:47,880
I mean, you get a game-breaking
combo in Glory to Rome.
1052
00:44:47,881 --> 00:44:51,040
Well, other players allow you to get that.
1053
00:44:51,041 --> 00:44:52,280
True.
1054
00:44:52,281 --> 00:44:54,480
Does anybody play Glory to Rome these days?
1055
00:44:54,481 --> 00:44:55,880
I never hear of it.
1056
00:44:55,881 --> 00:44:57,520
Everybody loves it when it gets played.
1057
00:44:57,521 --> 00:45:00,040
Honestly, I don't like
Glory to Rome at all.
1058
00:45:00,041 --> 00:45:00,840
Oh, OK.
1059
00:45:00,841 --> 00:45:03,200
But I would happily play Innovation.
1060
00:45:03,201 --> 00:45:04,080
Yes.
1061
00:45:04,081 --> 00:45:04,840
Yes.
1062
00:45:04,841 --> 00:45:08,360
If I did play Glory to Rome, Force
Shuffle would have replaced it.
1063
00:45:08,361 --> 00:45:13,400
This is a little foreshadowing there.
1064
00:45:13,401 --> 00:45:15,720
A little foreshadowing.
1065
00:45:15,721 --> 00:45:16,360
Yeah.
1066
00:45:16,361 --> 00:45:18,400
We can play Glory to Rome.
1067
00:45:18,401 --> 00:45:20,640
If you want to get the game
out early, then I'll bring it
1068
00:45:20,641 --> 00:45:23,000
and we can get a game in
before everyone all shows up.
1069
00:45:23,001 --> 00:45:24,920
Well, which edition do you have?
1070
00:45:24,921 --> 00:45:28,000
Because I know that's part of
that game is the different editions.
1071
00:45:28,001 --> 00:45:31,120
So I've got the original
a cartoony version.
1072
00:45:31,121 --> 00:45:35,280
Actually, I should have asked,
which edition don't you have?
1073
00:45:35,281 --> 00:45:36,040
Just the one?
1074
00:45:36,041 --> 00:45:37,200
Right.
1075
00:45:37,201 --> 00:45:39,000
I just have the one
at the cartoony edition.
1076
00:45:39,001 --> 00:45:43,160
I think Greg has the black
box edition, which is the one
1077
00:45:43,161 --> 00:45:46,960
that killed a company, if you are
familiar with that particular story.
1078
00:45:46,961 --> 00:45:49,320
All right, so less recognizable comparison.
1079
00:45:49,321 --> 00:45:52,040
What did you guys have for
the less recognizable one?
1080
00:45:52,041 --> 00:45:54,160
And Paul, I'll let you go first.
1081
00:45:54,161 --> 00:45:54,680
OK.
1082
00:45:54,681 --> 00:45:59,240
For me, it is Morel's primarily
because of the theme.
1083
00:45:59,241 --> 00:46:03,080
But it's also hand management, 100%.
1084
00:46:03,081 --> 00:46:04,840
And it's kind of combo building.
1085
00:46:04,841 --> 00:46:05,920
Well, it's set building, really.
1086
00:46:05,921 --> 00:46:07,960
But it's a forest theme in Morel's.
1087
00:46:07,961 --> 00:46:11,800
You're walking through a forest and picking
up mushrooms so you can cook them later.
1088
00:46:11,801 --> 00:46:13,880
And which one does your wife enjoy more?
1089
00:46:13,881 --> 00:46:15,960
Forest shuffle or Morel's?
1090
00:46:15,961 --> 00:46:17,320
Depends how much time we have.
1091
00:46:17,321 --> 00:46:17,920
OK.
1092
00:46:17,921 --> 00:46:18,320
Yeah.
1093
00:46:18,321 --> 00:46:21,560
If we got 30 minutes, it's
Morel's more than 30 minutes.
1094
00:46:21,561 --> 00:46:22,320
It's Forest shuffle.
1095
00:46:22,321 --> 00:46:23,000
Awesome.
1096
00:46:23,001 --> 00:46:23,960
Dave, what do you have?
1097
00:46:23,961 --> 00:46:28,080
Well, it's ridiculous to call
this a less recognizable game.
1098
00:46:28,081 --> 00:46:32,720
But our criterion for this is that it
has to be just outside the top 750.
1099
00:46:32,721 --> 00:46:34,600
So I reduced it for this.
1100
00:46:34,601 --> 00:46:36,200
You didn't even have to because my answer's
1101
00:46:36,201 --> 00:46:39,440
rumming, which is like in
the 2000s or 3,000 something.
1102
00:46:39,441 --> 00:46:40,880
Look, you're drawing cards.
1103
00:46:40,881 --> 00:46:41,960
You're melding cards.
1104
00:46:41,961 --> 00:46:45,320
You're laying cards off on your
tableau that you've melded in front of you.
1105
00:46:45,321 --> 00:46:50,520
And if you think of the combos
as suits or trying to put together
1106
00:46:50,521 --> 00:46:53,400
runs, it's really just a
fancy version of that.
1107
00:46:53,401 --> 00:46:56,720
And it's funny as much as
I complain about this game
1108
00:46:56,721 --> 00:47:00,213
as that the scarcity of these
combos I'm trying to pull off
1109
00:47:00,214 --> 00:47:03,960
where I'll sit and try to pull
it inside straight on a run.
1110
00:47:03,961 --> 00:47:06,760
I'm going for an Rummy,
which is a 1 in 52 chance.
1111
00:47:06,761 --> 00:47:08,560
It's even worse than this.
1112
00:47:08,561 --> 00:47:12,760
But I somehow accept it
better in a game of 500 rum
1113
00:47:12,761 --> 00:47:15,400
or contract Rummy with my
family than in a game like this.
1114
00:47:15,401 --> 00:47:17,000
But it's very similar.
1115
00:47:17,001 --> 00:47:19,840
It's Rummy with whistles and bells.
1116
00:47:19,841 --> 00:47:21,480
I really like that comparison.
1117
00:47:21,481 --> 00:47:22,840
And you're right.
1118
00:47:22,841 --> 00:47:25,320
So the reason why I said
I dropped it is currently
1119
00:47:25,321 --> 00:47:34,160
at number 723 is a game that won the
Kennerspiel des Jares in 2023, I think, 2022.
1120
00:47:34,161 --> 00:47:35,920
And that is Living Forest.
1121
00:47:35,921 --> 00:47:39,440
This is you trying to
collect different elements
1122
00:47:39,441 --> 00:47:42,640
to play guardian
spirits in front of you.
1123
00:47:42,641 --> 00:47:45,640
And then they're each
contributing their various,
1124
00:47:45,641 --> 00:47:48,640
either powers or their
elements so that you can combo
1125
00:47:48,641 --> 00:47:52,320
and then play additional
spirits into your forest
1126
00:47:52,321 --> 00:47:56,080
and accomplish those
tasks using their attributes.
1127
00:47:56,081 --> 00:47:58,840
And it's a great little
game in the forest theme.
1128
00:47:58,841 --> 00:48:01,160
It has some definite cartoonish artwork.
1129
00:48:01,161 --> 00:48:04,000
And it definitely was a
ready comparison for me.
1130
00:48:04,001 --> 00:48:06,480
But just under the 750 mark.
1131
00:48:06,481 --> 00:48:09,800
Well, now I see why you
lowered that mark from 750 to 700
1132
00:48:09,801 --> 00:48:13,520
where you're just unashamedly
saying, because your game was at 723.
1133
00:48:13,521 --> 00:48:14,280
100%.
1134
00:48:14,281 --> 00:48:14,600
Yeah.
1135
00:48:14,601 --> 00:48:15,360
OK, yeah.
1136
00:48:15,361 --> 00:48:16,840
You need to do that when you're the host.
1137
00:48:16,841 --> 00:48:18,760
That's right.
1138
00:48:18,761 --> 00:48:21,160
So house rules, how would
you improve the game?
1139
00:48:21,161 --> 00:48:22,360
Any thoughts there?
1140
00:48:22,361 --> 00:48:23,760
I don't have any yet.
1141
00:48:23,761 --> 00:48:25,040
I've really wrapped my brain.
1142
00:48:25,041 --> 00:48:26,200
I can't think of any.
1143
00:48:26,201 --> 00:48:28,520
I wish I could play a cricket sound effect.
1144
00:48:28,521 --> 00:48:30,520
Yeah.
1145
00:48:30,521 --> 00:48:33,040
It would be very apt, too.
1146
00:48:33,041 --> 00:48:35,280
You know, for me, I
would love to try playing it
1147
00:48:35,281 --> 00:48:38,760
with a known ending or at
least a less variable ending.
1148
00:48:38,761 --> 00:48:41,120
Oh, so you want to take out
the funnest part of the game?
1149
00:48:41,121 --> 00:48:45,080
I don't-- it's not the funnest
part of the game for me.
1150
00:48:45,081 --> 00:48:47,240
I thought about, you
know, if you shuffled it
1151
00:48:47,241 --> 00:48:49,736
in to the last 10 or
15 cards, but really all
1152
00:48:49,737 --> 00:48:51,720
you're saying is you
need one winter card.
1153
00:48:51,721 --> 00:48:54,360
When you see the winter
card, the game is going to end,
1154
00:48:54,361 --> 00:48:56,840
and it's going to happen
sometime in the last fill
1155
00:48:56,841 --> 00:48:58,960
in the number of
cards versus-- Right.
1156
00:48:58,961 --> 00:49:01,800
--it could happen anytime
after you've uncovered two,
1157
00:49:01,801 --> 00:49:04,240
like we did a couple weeks
ago when we got too off the bat.
1158
00:49:04,241 --> 00:49:07,360
And so we had 30
cards of drawing that still--
1159
00:49:07,361 --> 00:49:11,840
So you're saying that the fact
the game could end, let's say,
1160
00:49:11,841 --> 00:49:17,720
you know, 1% chance with a third of the deck
undrawn is what puts ants in your pants.
1161
00:49:17,721 --> 00:49:19,120
What I don't like about the game.
1162
00:49:19,121 --> 00:49:21,280
Yep.
1163
00:49:21,281 --> 00:49:22,680
Literal ants in my pants.
1164
00:49:22,681 --> 00:49:23,160
Thank you.
1165
00:49:23,161 --> 00:49:25,440
Yes.
1166
00:49:25,441 --> 00:49:26,760
Red ants and their biting.
1167
00:49:26,761 --> 00:49:27,680
Thank you.
1168
00:49:27,681 --> 00:49:30,080
Yeah.
1169
00:49:30,081 --> 00:49:31,920
So this game is being played at game night.
1170
00:49:31,921 --> 00:49:33,440
What do you want to play afterwards?
1171
00:49:33,441 --> 00:49:36,520
What's the double feature
game that goes best along with it?
1172
00:49:36,521 --> 00:49:37,280
Nothing.
1173
00:49:37,281 --> 00:49:39,680
I want to play a game before this one.
1174
00:49:39,681 --> 00:49:40,520
Yes.
1175
00:49:40,521 --> 00:49:41,040
OK.
1176
00:49:41,041 --> 00:49:42,040
OK.
1177
00:49:42,041 --> 00:49:43,600
I also have that down as my answer.
1178
00:49:43,601 --> 00:49:44,880
But what is that game?
1179
00:49:44,881 --> 00:49:48,400
I would continue the theme
and play Arknova, right?
1180
00:49:48,401 --> 00:49:50,101
Instead of playing
trees, you're playing zoo
1181
00:49:50,102 --> 00:49:52,760
enclosures, but they call
out to me to be together.
1182
00:49:52,761 --> 00:49:53,920
I think that makes a lot of sense.
1183
00:49:53,921 --> 00:49:56,120
I had Earth down for
the same reason, right?
1184
00:49:56,121 --> 00:49:57,400
You're building up an ecology.
1185
00:49:57,401 --> 00:50:01,680
But it's another game in that style
as Arknova or terraforming Mars.
1186
00:50:01,681 --> 00:50:04,840
Well, interestingly, no
wonder we are a game group.
1187
00:50:04,841 --> 00:50:06,760
Because my answer is terraforming Mars.
1188
00:50:06,761 --> 00:50:09,160
So we've said three
versions of very similar games.
1189
00:50:09,161 --> 00:50:11,680
[LAUGHTER]
1190
00:50:11,681 --> 00:50:14,000
For me, we've terraformed the planet.
1191
00:50:14,001 --> 00:50:15,800
Let's get a forest going.
1192
00:50:15,801 --> 00:50:17,120
Let's get some forest on it.
1193
00:50:17,121 --> 00:50:18,440
Oh, yeah, I mean, you need this.
1194
00:50:18,441 --> 00:50:22,160
It's terraforming Mars to a huge
forest on Mars when you terraform it.
1195
00:50:22,161 --> 00:50:23,120
So, yeah, it makes sense.
1196
00:50:23,121 --> 00:50:23,600
That's right.
1197
00:50:23,601 --> 00:50:24,240
Right.
1198
00:50:24,241 --> 00:50:29,160
So if I had to think of maybe one other
game lighter than this, how about arboretum?
1199
00:50:29,161 --> 00:50:29,920
Yes.
1200
00:50:29,921 --> 00:50:30,280
Yeah.
1201
00:50:30,281 --> 00:50:32,840
That's what my wife and I play
when we only have 15 minutes.
1202
00:50:32,841 --> 00:50:37,200
[LAUGHTER]
1203
00:50:37,201 --> 00:50:40,720
So you have these three games
stacked on top of each other.
1204
00:50:40,721 --> 00:50:41,240
Exactly.
1205
00:50:41,241 --> 00:50:43,840
Which one comes off the shelf
is how much time you have?
1206
00:50:43,841 --> 00:50:46,160
And if they have 90 minutes, it's Arknova.
1207
00:50:46,161 --> 00:50:47,160
Yeah, exactly.
1208
00:50:47,161 --> 00:50:48,160
Right.
1209
00:50:48,161 --> 00:50:50,160
[LAUGHTER]
1210
00:50:50,161 --> 00:50:52,680
All right, so what feature of
the game still stands out to you?
1211
00:50:52,681 --> 00:50:55,480
So this game is still a relative new one.
1212
00:50:55,481 --> 00:51:00,400
What really has aged the best
in its limited release time, Dave?
1213
00:51:00,401 --> 00:51:01,480
It's the clearing.
1214
00:51:01,481 --> 00:51:04,280
And as we said, it's a
rehash of Lost Cities.
1215
00:51:04,281 --> 00:51:07,400
But to me, that's just the most
interesting part of the game
1216
00:51:07,401 --> 00:51:09,800
is that I can't give you cards
that you're going to want
1217
00:51:09,801 --> 00:51:12,400
or time them to wipe
them as we've talked about.
1218
00:51:12,401 --> 00:51:16,360
Just the way that discard
interacts, I think it's just fantastic.
1219
00:51:16,361 --> 00:51:18,000
And I think it's going
to hold up for a while.
1220
00:51:18,001 --> 00:51:18,760
Absolutely.
1221
00:51:18,761 --> 00:51:19,480
Good call.
1222
00:51:19,481 --> 00:51:21,040
Paul, what did you have?
1223
00:51:21,041 --> 00:51:23,680
I couldn't decide between two
things that I love about this game.
1224
00:51:23,681 --> 00:51:26,200
One, being the clearing, like Dave said.
1225
00:51:26,201 --> 00:51:29,680
And two, being the variable
game end, like you said.
1226
00:51:29,681 --> 00:51:31,600
Yeah, I didn't say that was
my favorite thing, though.
1227
00:51:31,601 --> 00:51:34,160
[LAUGHTER]
1228
00:51:34,161 --> 00:51:38,040
You said you wanted a house
rule, but it's one of my favorite things.
1229
00:51:38,041 --> 00:51:40,040
OK.
1230
00:51:40,041 --> 00:51:40,480
Right.
1231
00:51:40,481 --> 00:51:43,280
For me, I had the split cards, right?
1232
00:51:43,281 --> 00:51:44,600
The left, right, top, bottom.
1233
00:51:44,601 --> 00:51:45,960
Those are awesome, yeah.
1234
00:51:45,961 --> 00:51:46,400
Yeah.
1235
00:51:46,401 --> 00:51:47,400
That was a novel.
1236
00:51:47,401 --> 00:51:50,509
But the clearing is
also just a really strong
1237
00:51:50,510 --> 00:51:52,960
mechanism that stands
out, so I agree there.
1238
00:51:52,961 --> 00:51:56,320
So what feature of the game
now disappoints game length?
1239
00:51:56,321 --> 00:51:58,360
What is age the worst for you?
1240
00:51:58,361 --> 00:51:59,160
Anything?
1241
00:51:59,161 --> 00:52:00,240
My answer is nothing.
1242
00:52:00,241 --> 00:52:00,840
Nothing.
1243
00:52:00,841 --> 00:52:02,160
Game length, OK?
1244
00:52:02,161 --> 00:52:05,240
Well, this isn't a big knock on the game.
1245
00:52:05,241 --> 00:52:06,600
I mean, it shouldn't be.
1246
00:52:06,601 --> 00:52:09,720
And this is not a big deck energy
game that we've talked about.
1247
00:52:09,721 --> 00:52:12,280
But it is another game we've
come into yet another game
1248
00:52:12,281 --> 00:52:14,720
where I've got to learn a
whole new deck of cards.
1249
00:52:14,721 --> 00:52:17,080
And it's in the zeitgeist right now.
1250
00:52:17,081 --> 00:52:20,240
That's what's hot right now,
or these aren't unique cards.
1251
00:52:20,241 --> 00:52:22,160
So it's not quite the same as Arknova.
1252
00:52:22,161 --> 00:52:25,840
But again, in order to get proficient,
I've got to learn a whole bunch of cards.
1253
00:52:25,841 --> 00:52:27,040
But you can't knock the game for it.
1254
00:52:27,041 --> 00:52:28,720
That's really what makes it sing.
1255
00:52:28,721 --> 00:52:30,280
I mean, that's what's good about the game.
1256
00:52:30,281 --> 00:52:32,640
It's just as a player,
like, here we go again.
1257
00:52:32,641 --> 00:52:34,520
So I actually grumbled through a few plays
1258
00:52:34,521 --> 00:52:37,560
before my gaming friends start
telling me, like, no, it's a good game.
1259
00:52:37,561 --> 00:52:38,800
Trust us.
1260
00:52:38,801 --> 00:52:42,360
And then I start, all right, I'll learn
the cards and make it to the other side.
1261
00:52:42,361 --> 00:52:42,800
Right.
1262
00:52:42,801 --> 00:52:45,080
And appreciate declaring for what it is.
1263
00:52:45,081 --> 00:52:47,600
As you mentioned, that
was your other aha moment.
1264
00:52:47,601 --> 00:52:48,080
Right.
1265
00:52:48,081 --> 00:52:48,560
OK.
1266
00:52:48,561 --> 00:52:50,200
And, by the way, I didn't mean game length.
1267
00:52:50,201 --> 00:52:52,280
I meant the game timer mechanism.
1268
00:52:52,281 --> 00:52:53,600
Oh, we all do.
1269
00:52:53,601 --> 00:52:55,120
You were talking about the winner cards.
1270
00:52:55,121 --> 00:52:55,640
Yeah.
1271
00:52:55,641 --> 00:52:57,400
I have it as one of my favorite features.
1272
00:52:57,401 --> 00:52:59,480
And you have it as one
of the worst features.
1273
00:52:59,481 --> 00:53:00,600
Understand.
1274
00:53:00,601 --> 00:53:01,280
Yeah.
1275
00:53:01,281 --> 00:53:03,080
I didn't realize that you
didn't like it so much.
1276
00:53:03,081 --> 00:53:06,120
It's such a great tension
at the end of the game.
1277
00:53:06,121 --> 00:53:09,080
Do you like it in Alhambra
or other games that do this?
1278
00:53:09,081 --> 00:53:10,640
Like, this could be my last turn.
1279
00:53:10,641 --> 00:53:11,520
I don't know yet.
1280
00:53:11,521 --> 00:53:13,680
I don't just don't like that ever.
1281
00:53:13,681 --> 00:53:16,720
I love player-controlled
endings to the game.
1282
00:53:16,721 --> 00:53:20,720
But I also like knowing where
that ending is, so I can control to it.
1283
00:53:20,721 --> 00:53:21,040
Right.
1284
00:53:21,041 --> 00:53:21,360
Yeah.
1285
00:53:21,361 --> 00:53:22,360
St. Petersburg.
1286
00:53:22,361 --> 00:53:27,360
I can-- Todd wants it to be a dart
board instead of the broad side of a barn.
1287
00:53:27,361 --> 00:53:29,600
And for a shuffle, it's
the broad side of a barn.
1288
00:53:29,601 --> 00:53:30,160
Yeah.
1289
00:53:30,161 --> 00:53:30,600
Yeah.
1290
00:53:30,601 --> 00:53:33,400
Well, or maybe this is the
illusion of player-controlled.
1291
00:53:33,401 --> 00:53:37,000
Like, we're trying to-- Also turn to the
deck is controlling me into the game.
1292
00:53:37,001 --> 00:53:39,080
We're just trying to speed
or slow down that deck.
1293
00:53:39,081 --> 00:53:41,640
So it's not as player-controlled
as we want it to be.
1294
00:53:41,641 --> 00:53:42,440
Right.
1295
00:53:42,441 --> 00:53:44,160
Or I should-- I mean, you want it to be.
1296
00:53:44,161 --> 00:53:45,400
I like it really.
1297
00:53:45,401 --> 00:53:46,760
No, you like it when it's in luck.
1298
00:53:46,761 --> 00:53:48,440
We'll talk about it when we get to rain.
1299
00:53:48,441 --> 00:53:52,120
Yeah, you know, I think the
reason I love the variable game
1300
00:53:52,121 --> 00:53:56,165
in so much is because I
became so soured on a previous
1301
00:53:56,166 --> 00:53:58,960
favorite game of mine
called locomotive works.
1302
00:53:58,961 --> 00:54:05,960
Because of the minute calculations that
everybody had to do at the end of the game,
1303
00:54:05,961 --> 00:54:08,782
you had to, like, work
backwards like a math
1304
00:54:08,783 --> 00:54:10,920
problem to three turns
before the end of the game
1305
00:54:10,921 --> 00:54:13,680
to figure out what position you
wanted to be at the end of the game.
1306
00:54:13,681 --> 00:54:19,440
And so that developed a hatred
of defined game endings for me.
1307
00:54:19,441 --> 00:54:20,280
OK.
1308
00:54:20,281 --> 00:54:24,040
It was such a good time we
had with locomotive works.
1309
00:54:24,041 --> 00:54:26,520
And that end game meta started to emerge.
1310
00:54:26,521 --> 00:54:29,680
And then it's starting to get
to where sometimes even less
1311
00:54:29,681 --> 00:54:32,160
than halfway through the
game, where we start calculating.
1312
00:54:32,161 --> 00:54:33,360
Where do I want to be?
1313
00:54:33,361 --> 00:54:35,560
I'm planning for the end game from here.
1314
00:54:35,561 --> 00:54:40,120
And there's a lot of basic
arithmetic involved, but a lot of it.
1315
00:54:40,121 --> 00:54:42,920
Take it the dope but
no pad in the calculator.
1316
00:54:42,921 --> 00:54:43,600
Yeah.
1317
00:54:43,601 --> 00:54:47,840
I bought a pack of 10
mini calculators off Amazon.
1318
00:54:47,841 --> 00:54:50,080
I just threw them in the box so everybody
1319
00:54:50,081 --> 00:54:55,080
gets their player color,
whatever it is, and a calculator.
1320
00:54:55,081 --> 00:54:59,960
It's such a great game that's
also that end to totally destroy it.
1321
00:54:59,961 --> 00:55:00,880
Yeah.
1322
00:55:00,881 --> 00:55:05,440
But when you don't see it yet, it's a
great ride until you see that ending.
1323
00:55:05,441 --> 00:55:06,040
Yeah.
1324
00:55:06,041 --> 00:55:06,840
Exactly.
1325
00:55:06,841 --> 00:55:07,240
All right.
1326
00:55:07,241 --> 00:55:10,480
So did this game replace
a previous game for you?
1327
00:55:10,481 --> 00:55:11,840
And I'll go ahead and answer first.
1328
00:55:11,841 --> 00:55:14,880
And I suspect I'm
actually going to possibly--
1329
00:55:14,881 --> 00:55:16,520
but I'm not going to
say look about it works.
1330
00:55:16,521 --> 00:55:18,120
I might be getting in Paul's way here.
1331
00:55:18,121 --> 00:55:20,160
For me, it replaced Fox in the forest.
1332
00:55:20,161 --> 00:55:23,400
But not Fox in the forest duet
since that one is a cooperative game.
1333
00:55:23,401 --> 00:55:25,280
But I really can't imagine wanting
1334
00:55:25,281 --> 00:55:28,960
to play Fox in the forest instead, given
the same amount of time for each game.
1335
00:55:28,961 --> 00:55:29,840
What did you have, Paul?
1336
00:55:29,841 --> 00:55:32,640
Well, I still haven't adored
Fox in the forest duet.
1337
00:55:32,641 --> 00:55:34,640
I have never played Fox in the forest.
1338
00:55:34,641 --> 00:55:35,600
OK.
1339
00:55:35,601 --> 00:55:40,400
So for me, there is no specific
game that Forest Shuffle has replaced.
1340
00:55:40,401 --> 00:55:46,720
It has just stolen time from all the games
I used to play to make a space for itself.
1341
00:55:46,721 --> 00:55:47,240
OK.
1342
00:55:47,241 --> 00:55:48,520
That's a great answer.
1343
00:55:48,521 --> 00:55:51,720
Well, often for this, we say
no, it hasn't replaced a game
1344
00:55:51,721 --> 00:55:55,200
because it's a new space
or a new kind of game.
1345
00:55:55,201 --> 00:55:59,880
In this case, it hasn't replaced a game
because all of the predecessors that we've
1346
00:55:59,881 --> 00:56:03,400
mentioned, I would
rather play over this game.
1347
00:56:03,401 --> 00:56:08,200
So I would rather play Race for the Galaxy.
1348
00:56:08,201 --> 00:56:10,120
Yeah, right.
1349
00:56:10,121 --> 00:56:11,880
Well, no, it hasn't been replaced.
1350
00:56:11,881 --> 00:56:13,160
Those games came before it.
1351
00:56:13,161 --> 00:56:15,040
But I would rather play Lost Cities.
1352
00:56:15,041 --> 00:56:16,280
I'd rather play San Juan.
1353
00:56:16,281 --> 00:56:20,120
And I'd rather play Race for
the Galaxy before the Galaxy.
1354
00:56:20,121 --> 00:56:21,480
Though this is great.
1355
00:56:21,481 --> 00:56:22,880
I'm not knocking the game that much.
1356
00:56:22,881 --> 00:56:26,240
It's just the shoulders that it
stands on are better than it.
1357
00:56:26,241 --> 00:56:26,800
Right.
1358
00:56:26,801 --> 00:56:30,120
I would have to change the
composition of the next question
1359
00:56:30,121 --> 00:56:33,880
to be more like, what are the
games that this did not displace?
1360
00:56:33,881 --> 00:56:34,240
Right.
1361
00:56:34,241 --> 00:56:35,720
They didn't try it.
1362
00:56:35,721 --> 00:56:39,160
They tried to stand on its
corner, but it didn't take it.
1363
00:56:39,161 --> 00:56:41,360
That's actually probably
a better question to ask
1364
00:56:41,361 --> 00:56:43,920
because I think it's new
enough that if I were to ask,
1365
00:56:43,921 --> 00:56:46,680
has this been replaced
by anything, the answers?
1366
00:56:46,681 --> 00:56:48,440
No.
1367
00:56:48,441 --> 00:56:52,000
That Dave's answer is Rummy.
1368
00:56:52,001 --> 00:56:53,800
Dave's answer is three card Monty.
1369
00:56:53,801 --> 00:56:54,920
Yeah.
1370
00:56:54,921 --> 00:56:55,440
All right.
1371
00:56:55,441 --> 00:56:59,160
Soundtrack, what music would
you want to listen to while playing?
1372
00:56:59,161 --> 00:57:00,680
And be it Sounds of the Forest.
1373
00:57:00,681 --> 00:57:01,240
OK.
1374
00:57:01,241 --> 00:57:01,480
Yeah.
1375
00:57:01,481 --> 00:57:03,560
Since this theme has come up a few times,
1376
00:57:03,561 --> 00:57:05,640
I think we probably have
the exact same answers
1377
00:57:05,641 --> 00:57:08,800
as whatever last game we
had that was nature-themed.
1378
00:57:08,801 --> 00:57:11,600
And for me, it's just
nature sounds or spa music.
1379
00:57:11,601 --> 00:57:12,360
OK.
1380
00:57:12,361 --> 00:57:13,120
Yes.
1381
00:57:13,121 --> 00:57:14,720
Absolutely, that will work.
1382
00:57:14,721 --> 00:57:17,840
I forced myself to find a different answer.
1383
00:57:17,841 --> 00:57:20,000
And I didn't go with, you know, Vivaldi.
1384
00:57:20,001 --> 00:57:24,280
I went this time with Mysterious
Forest by Frederick Chopin.
1385
00:57:24,281 --> 00:57:24,920
Oh.
1386
00:57:24,921 --> 00:57:27,960
All right, is that Chopin making
another appearance on our podcaster?
1387
00:57:27,961 --> 00:57:28,840
Is that his first?
1388
00:57:28,841 --> 00:57:29,720
I don't remember.
1389
00:57:29,721 --> 00:57:30,400
I don't know.
1390
00:57:30,401 --> 00:57:32,200
I think it might be the first appearance.
1391
00:57:32,201 --> 00:57:32,760
Yeah.
1392
00:57:32,761 --> 00:57:34,600
And once we do lacrimosa
or something like that,
1393
00:57:34,601 --> 00:57:38,040
we may not make maybe a while
before he gets another opportunity.
1394
00:57:38,041 --> 00:57:38,800
All right.
1395
00:57:38,801 --> 00:57:44,960
So rating on board game geeks scale of 1 to
10 now, how would you rate for a shuffle?
1396
00:57:44,961 --> 00:57:46,520
And Dave, I'm going to have you go last.
1397
00:57:46,521 --> 00:57:47,560
So Paul?
1398
00:57:47,561 --> 00:57:48,520
For me, it's an eight.
1399
00:57:48,521 --> 00:57:50,000
It's an eight, all right?
1400
00:57:50,001 --> 00:57:52,560
Which is a good score coming from you.
1401
00:57:52,561 --> 00:57:53,640
But why an eight?
1402
00:57:53,641 --> 00:57:57,400
Why an eight because I would recommend it
1403
00:57:57,401 --> 00:58:01,160
and never say no to
someone else asking to play it?
1404
00:58:01,161 --> 00:58:01,680
OK.
1405
00:58:01,681 --> 00:58:03,120
I had it down as a seven.
1406
00:58:03,121 --> 00:58:05,240
And I think it could still be climbing.
1407
00:58:05,241 --> 00:58:07,200
The thing about not
liking the end game score,
1408
00:58:07,201 --> 00:58:10,280
I mean, it doesn't kill the game for
me by any stretch of the imagination.
1409
00:58:10,281 --> 00:58:12,160
So one of the things
about finding something
1410
00:58:12,161 --> 00:58:16,400
that hasn't aged well or you don't like
about the game could be improved upon.
1411
00:58:16,401 --> 00:58:17,400
You're going to pick something.
1412
00:58:17,401 --> 00:58:19,680
But this is still a really good game.
1413
00:58:19,681 --> 00:58:21,440
And seven is a healthy score.
1414
00:58:21,441 --> 00:58:22,720
And we're still playing it.
1415
00:58:22,721 --> 00:58:24,360
And I'm looking forward
to playing it some more.
1416
00:58:24,361 --> 00:58:27,480
So Dave, what did you have it
down as since you've had the most
1417
00:58:27,481 --> 00:58:30,720
the largest journey with
the game on that front?
1418
00:58:30,721 --> 00:58:34,000
Well, right now, it's at a six for me.
1419
00:58:34,001 --> 00:58:34,800
It's a good game.
1420
00:58:34,801 --> 00:58:36,600
I'll play if somebody else wants to play.
1421
00:58:36,601 --> 00:58:39,720
Generally, there's probably
another game that I want to play.
1422
00:58:39,721 --> 00:58:43,120
I think it's a good game
that my plays of the game
1423
00:58:43,121 --> 00:58:45,320
have not really been
able to access as well.
1424
00:58:45,321 --> 00:58:48,200
And probably because I haven't
played as much two-player.
1425
00:58:48,201 --> 00:58:50,480
I think if I spent some time
really exploring the two-player
1426
00:58:50,481 --> 00:58:53,240
game that would probably
rise, most of my plays
1427
00:58:53,241 --> 00:58:58,200
have been on BGA, four-player
in person, four and five-player.
1428
00:58:58,201 --> 00:59:00,640
So I'm probably doing the
game a bit of a disservice
1429
00:59:00,641 --> 00:59:02,708
that maybe those player
counts shouldn't even be on
1430
00:59:02,709 --> 00:59:06,520
the box like we were
saying, but it's a six for me.
1431
00:59:06,521 --> 00:59:10,120
Like I said, all the games that came before
it, they kind of influenced this game.
1432
00:59:10,121 --> 00:59:12,000
I would rather play those games.
1433
00:59:12,001 --> 00:59:14,280
So just out of curiosity,
what do you rate, Rummy?
1434
00:59:14,281 --> 00:59:18,800
Rummy, that's an interesting question because
I haven't actually sat down to rate it.
1435
00:59:18,801 --> 00:59:21,400
So Rummy's a different
kind of experience, right?
1436
00:59:21,401 --> 00:59:26,520
I mean, it's not a game that I'm necessarily
playing for the mechanics of the game.
1437
00:59:26,521 --> 00:59:30,120
It's sitting around and having snacks
and visiting usually with family members.
1438
00:59:30,121 --> 00:59:31,640
Maybe you haven't seen for a while.
1439
00:59:31,641 --> 00:59:34,040
It always has a different environment.
1440
00:59:34,041 --> 00:59:36,280
I do quite like Jim Rummy.
1441
00:59:36,281 --> 00:59:38,120
That might actually be of the Rummies.
1442
00:59:38,121 --> 00:59:40,080
I might say Jim Rummy's a seven for me.
1443
00:59:40,081 --> 00:59:42,640
That's just a classic solid game.
1444
00:59:42,641 --> 00:59:43,160
Mm-hmm.
1445
00:59:43,161 --> 00:59:47,440
And what would you rate the
standard 52-card deck plus two jokers?
1446
00:59:47,441 --> 00:59:48,680
[LAUGHTER]
1447
00:59:48,681 --> 00:59:51,120
That might be a 10.
1448
00:59:51,121 --> 00:59:52,320
No, that's a great question.
1449
00:59:52,321 --> 00:59:54,000
That might be a 10, honestly.
1450
00:59:54,001 --> 00:59:55,120
I think it is.
1451
00:59:55,121 --> 00:59:57,560
That in a book of oil, I'm ready to go.
1452
00:59:57,561 --> 00:59:58,360
Right?
1453
00:59:58,361 --> 00:59:58,880
Yeah.
1454
00:59:58,881 --> 01:00:00,508
So back to "For Shuffle.
1455
01:00:00,509 --> 01:00:03,760
" Is it replayable on how soon
do you want to revisit the game?
1456
01:00:03,761 --> 01:00:05,800
Paul, I'm going to let
you go last this time.
1457
01:00:05,801 --> 01:00:07,680
So Dave, I'll let you go first.
1458
01:00:07,681 --> 01:00:11,360
Look, I say this a lot too much,
probably on every episode.
1459
01:00:11,361 --> 01:00:15,320
But it's a game where if
you're going to replay it,
1460
01:00:15,321 --> 01:00:17,880
or don't bother, don't
play this once or twice.
1461
01:00:17,881 --> 01:00:21,400
Because, again, it has that
learning curve for the deck.
1462
01:00:21,401 --> 01:00:25,800
It's really not going to start to illuminate,
or bloom as a game, and tell you're
1463
01:00:25,801 --> 01:00:28,320
familiar with the
possibilities that are out there.
1464
01:00:28,321 --> 01:00:31,800
So if you're not going to play it
five to 10 times, don't play at once.
1465
01:00:31,801 --> 01:00:34,720
So yes, it's replayable if it's playable.
1466
01:00:34,721 --> 01:00:35,520
Yeah.
1467
01:00:35,521 --> 01:00:39,800
You know, and I'm looking at my notes for
this, and I have something similar in that.
1468
01:00:39,801 --> 01:00:42,160
Yeah, it's absolutely
replayable, especially
1469
01:00:42,161 --> 01:00:46,040
with the muscle memory about the
power combinations and what's possible.
1470
01:00:46,041 --> 01:00:47,714
And I think you could
get the playing time
1471
01:00:47,715 --> 01:00:49,720
down to 30 minutes,
which would be amazing.
1472
01:00:49,721 --> 01:00:53,960
I mean, this game in a two-player, 30-minute
game would be an incredible experience.
1473
01:00:53,961 --> 01:00:55,280
All right, Paul, bring us home.
1474
01:00:55,281 --> 01:00:57,120
Yes, I've been playing every week or two.
1475
01:00:57,121 --> 01:01:03,120
And today's point, it took my wife eight
plays before she was able to beat me.
1476
01:01:03,121 --> 01:01:06,840
Wasn't she surprised when
you told her the exact number?
1477
01:01:06,841 --> 01:01:11,040
Yeah, she didn't realize
she'd played that many times.
1478
01:01:11,041 --> 01:01:12,320
Some games just take it.
1479
01:01:12,321 --> 01:01:16,280
It's that sixth player, that seventh
play, where the light comes on.
1480
01:01:16,281 --> 01:01:19,920
I've had this more than you guys, I
think, where I've grumbled about a game.
1481
01:01:19,921 --> 01:01:25,080
And because I trust you guys so much,
I'll keep grumbling, but I'll keep trying.
1482
01:01:25,081 --> 01:01:28,920
And then the light comes on one
day, and Russian railroads was won.
1483
01:01:28,921 --> 01:01:31,492
And I didn't enjoy it, and
maybe the fourth or fifth
1484
01:01:31,493 --> 01:01:33,520
play, I'm like, oh my
gosh, this is a great game.
1485
01:01:33,521 --> 01:01:34,960
And I don't know what it is.
1486
01:01:34,961 --> 01:01:37,120
And all of a sudden,
you're better than a skimp?
1487
01:01:37,121 --> 01:01:39,000
I don't know, now I'm certainly not.
1488
01:01:39,001 --> 01:01:41,760
Maybe I won the last one we
played, but that's probably it.
1489
01:01:41,761 --> 01:01:42,320
But yeah.
1490
01:01:42,321 --> 01:01:44,538
Well, all I can say is I
hope that the light turns
1491
01:01:44,539 --> 01:01:47,400
on for you, because it
doesn't always turn on.
1492
01:01:47,401 --> 01:01:47,920
Yeah.
1493
01:01:47,921 --> 01:01:48,800
Food chain magnet.
1494
01:01:48,801 --> 01:01:49,520
The Yunnan.
1495
01:01:49,521 --> 01:01:50,520
Yeah.
1496
01:01:50,521 --> 01:01:53,520
Oh, you guys do.
1497
01:01:53,521 --> 01:01:55,160
You gave it a fair shake.
1498
01:01:55,161 --> 01:01:56,640
I mean, you've got a lot of plays.
1499
01:01:56,641 --> 01:01:59,600
And if it hasn't taken by now, I
don't think it's going to happen.
1500
01:01:59,601 --> 01:02:02,280
I don't think it is either.
1501
01:02:02,281 --> 01:02:05,720
All right, and without the third
winner card has been drawn.
1502
01:02:05,721 --> 01:02:08,200
For our next episode, I think
we're going to have the same crew,
1503
01:02:08,201 --> 01:02:12,560
and we're going to go digging for
ancient civilizations and their artifacts.
1504
01:02:12,561 --> 01:02:14,400
So thanks for being
available tonight, guys.
1505
01:02:14,401 --> 01:02:18,800
And goodness, can we get
to sleep at a reasonable hour?
1506
01:02:18,801 --> 01:02:22,440
Spring time will come.
1507
01:02:22,441 --> 01:02:23,000
All right, thanks.
1508
01:02:23,001 --> 01:02:24,400
That's a good one.
1509
01:02:24,401 --> 01:02:26,240
Thank you for
listening to "Replayable.
1510
01:02:26,241 --> 01:02:29,000
" Support for our podcast
comes from listeners like you.
1511
01:02:29,001 --> 01:02:32,320
You can find us online at
replayable.fm, on Twitter
1512
01:02:32,321 --> 01:02:35,896
as "Replayable FM," and on
Instagram as "Replayable FM.
1513
01:02:35,897 --> 01:02:39,480
" You can also join our team
at patreon.com/replayable.
1514
01:02:39,481 --> 01:02:41,120
Thank you for your support.
1515
01:02:41,121 --> 01:02:44,760
We welcome your feedback, which is the
only way that we are going to get better.
1516
01:02:44,761 --> 01:02:48,880
You can get in touch with us via
email at feedback@replayable.fm.
1517
01:02:48,881 --> 01:02:50,760
And if you're interested in sponsoring us,
1518
01:02:50,761 --> 01:02:54,640
then please contact us at
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1519
01:02:54,641 --> 01:02:57,560
[MUSIC PLAYING]
1520
01:02:57,561 --> 01:03:00,600
[MUSIC PLAYING]
1521
01:03:00,601 --> 01:03:03,660
[MUSIC PLAYING]
1522
01:03:03,661 --> 01:03:07,000
[MUSIC PLAYING]
1523
01:03:07,001 --> 01:03:10,340
[MUSIC PLAYING]
1524
01:03:10,341 --> 01:03:12,920
(gentle music)
