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[SPEAKER_02]: If you're looking for a conversation today that's really going to center you, that's going to ground you and help you tap into your own incredible potential, then stay tuned with our interview with Dr. Dan for make it a great one.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It is a fantastic conversation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's thoughtful and I know you're going to get a ton out of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hello all and welcome to the Relationship Innovation podcast.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Tara Kerwin and my name is EJ Kerwin and today We're very excited.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We just had a fantastic like intro conversation with a psychologist Dr. Dan from make it a great one Dr. Dan is the host of make it a great one podcast.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is pretty incredible.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It is a top point five percent podcast
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[SPEAKER_02]: globally.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if I'm right, just in a year, he's done that, which is incredible.
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[SPEAKER_02]: He shares insights on personal growth, relationships, and living with greater intention.
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[SPEAKER_02]: His work focuses on helping people shift their mindset, strengthen their connections, and create more meaningful lives.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's amazing stuff.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And welcome, Dr. Dan.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we're lucky to have him to pick his
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[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks guys.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I've been looking forward to this conversation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that's true.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's start before we go into the topic.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Let's give us just a little bit about yourself, Dan.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, how did you end up in this field?
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what kind of catches you on fire with working with people?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I've been a psychologist practicing for close to 30 years now and my pull, my drive has always been, I just always seem potential in people.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, at a young age, I was always
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[SPEAKER_03]: with people, working with people, being a counselor and kids, worked with a lot of kids, a lot of youth, played tennis growing up.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It was a core part of my identity, taught a lot of tennis, did summer camps.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And when it came to go into school, the thing that kept pulling me is people.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So that's what led me into psychology.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And
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[SPEAKER_03]: that journey led me into working with lots of different people but a specializing in a subset of of what is called gifted or twice exceptional individuals now called neurodiverse people who have really exceptional abilities but also have a synchrony and their development and are often misunderstood.
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[SPEAKER_03]: and it still was potential, it was potential and helping people in a strength-based way realizing who they are for their highs, but also accepting their full cells, like we're all wired so differently.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And then a more recent formal pivot was, you know, I want to do this
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[SPEAKER_03]: in another way.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So I still direct our clinic and I still have clients that I long-term clients that I do counseling with.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But over a year ago, I said, you know, it just felt time to do something to expand and that expansion took me into executive leadership coaching and coaching in general.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Again, really helping people really see that potential in themselves and that life force that we all have and
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[SPEAKER_03]: accessing more of who they are.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Like we don't realize how many capabilities that we have growing up in our society with a lot of the programming and the messaging and the schooling and we have so much within us that can be accessed and that has become the cornerstone of my work.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And let me say one more thing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I know being on the other side of this.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to be brief.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So running is for my mental health and my soul full and spiritual health, and during the lockdown days, I started to get these messages when everyone was scared.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We were all shut down, our community was messaging us on Facebook, and the message that kept coming to me was, you are to bring hope, connection, awareness, and wisdom.
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[SPEAKER_03]: and over and over and over and it stayed with me and that's what I had a former podcast right years called Parent Footprint with Dr. Dan and that is where the transition came from was to censure the podcast on bringing hope connection awareness and wisdom to the world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like I said before, even getting onto this podcast, I love you already.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's your heart, work hindered spirits, absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, my tip of the day today was, I hope holders because right when things start to feel very fearful and we feel like this is the end of the story and there's no light at the end of the tunnel on a little never be different.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like I've always been even that little girl who was stuck in this trauma childhood.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I like knew there was something more.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And my heart was healing from a young age too, so I just I relate to so many things you said.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And again, just so grateful you're here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I think that that's a great segue into our topic, bringing hope and connection.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's a lot, you know, we have a bulk of our listeners are one or two people in a couple who are struggling, you know, they find us because they're in some level of despair around the connection.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and they're lacking that hope and one of the things that we really push people towards early on is because it's sometimes it's really hard to work on their connection immediately because there's so much water that's going to need the bridge and there's so much fracture to the security of their relationship that we center them on okay this is your opportunity to become your
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[SPEAKER_02]: and that actually this disruption that's going on in this suffering that's happening within your relationship, if you hold up a mirror, it's going to point you in the direction of your own personal growth.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if you guys can both first make that you turn and set up pointing your finger and looking inward, we can stabilize like we can grab onto something and begin to pull out ourselves out of this place of despair.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so we want to really look at see how you can help our audience in how you approach that idea of personal growth, because I love what you said, accessing who we are.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we are in alignment.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like all of us have been through tough times, whether they're individual, familial or in relationship in our primary, a couple of relationships, partnership.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And it is really hard in those times to see these as opportunities.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And yet, they are completely opportunities.
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[SPEAKER_03]: They are the messengers coming to us to tell us there is more to us.
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[SPEAKER_03]: This is the indicator for a growth opportunity.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And growth does not happen when we get a trophy.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, joy is wonderful and winning is wonderful.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And peak experiences and moments,
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[SPEAKER_03]: are wonderful.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We sell them learned from them.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We might get increased confidence in ourselves from them like, oh, I didn't know I can do that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Now I can do that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But when it comes to fundamental growth, they all come from the difficulty.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, we often talk about, you know, you can't know another until you know yourself.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You can't love another until you love yourself.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And we also know that in partnership, it is like that mirror where our partners like hold up a mirror to all of our traumas, our triggers, our shadow, all this stuff.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And we come together with our partners for lots of different reasons, but it's usually no
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[SPEAKER_03]: secret why we come together ultimately with our partners because they're there's something that attracts us.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's familiar.
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[SPEAKER_03]: The patterns are familiar.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's something we never had.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's something we always had.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so in these moments, it's really about looking inward.
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[SPEAKER_03]: and the self-reflection.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And this is where awareness, like awareness is the cornerstone in my experience, personal, professional of how do we gain more awareness of ourselves, of our place in the world, and of our partner, because when we go to our partners for, they need to meet this need.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Well, why?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Why do we have that need?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Can we meet that need?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Can we understand that need?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Can we start to become more whole ourselves before expecting the other to fill something within us?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that we're working so hard with a couple at the very beginning is they're so locked into the stimulus of the other person, you know, the things they're doing, the things they're saying, the ways they're acting, and they're almost that self-awareness is like,
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[SPEAKER_02]: gone, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, when you're working with an individual and you're hearing them throw a lot of like data at you about my partner distance, it's all external.
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[SPEAKER_03]: How do you help that person make that you turn?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think the first part is validating, like really validating those are needs that one wants that it's not getting met.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's important for us to hear those needs because it also helps uncover where the work can go and where the work is needed.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so after hearing that, it's exploring.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Why do you want them to do this?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Why do you need them to do this?
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[SPEAKER_03]: How would it make you feel if they did do this?
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[SPEAKER_03]: How does it make you feel if they don't do this?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And where is it in yourself that you might be not fully aware or be realized
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[SPEAKER_03]: the abilities that you have and why you have these needs.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And again, this goes back to there's so much more of us than we're aware of.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Because again, we all come from different situations.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We all come from different paths and have different experiences that happen to us.
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[SPEAKER_03]: All of that just piles on this going to do, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: And it takes, first of all, as you guys know from your work, it takes a relationship with someone that you trust.
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[SPEAKER_03]: to be able to go to these places that are really vulnerable and at times dark but know that you can help hold that with the person because me the work is really helping people realize how much they are and how strong they are and how many more abilities and coping mechanisms and resiliency they have then they think they do.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's so many times when, whether it's on our podcast or when we're guessing on other podcasts, that this is created from our own first year of marriage and having twins and a blended family and the twins had callic and I was like divorcing EJ every five days in the mini band we had to buy like I was a.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right, I'd never been so overwhelmed in my life and what I really wanted to do was leave him, but I'm a marriage counselor for 20 years.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I have to like, what is this information?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in knowing that I was very triggered and I wanted him to just protect me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That that's my own childhood wound stuff.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then I was co-dependent on that protection.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because, again, I'm a therapist and so is E.J., we're compelled to make this work and doing that you turn that, like, I have to protect myself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I can't be codependent on E.J.
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[SPEAKER_01]: being my protector.
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[SPEAKER_01]: However, all of the triggers from our relationship has made me grown into,
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[SPEAKER_01]: The person that I am today, so I'm so thankful for it in our in our lobby at our Counseling Center.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It says our partner can be our greatest teacher.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Be patient for the lessons.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's true because I trusted E.J.
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[SPEAKER_01]: at a very core level, but I didn't know the work I was going to do because I had no idea how triggering it would be.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I love that that is the work you do because it is what sustained us and now we have this business but ten years later helping thousands of couples try to become their best selves together in a really difficult situation and it's not even about staying together.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Or as I go listen if you can at least make a decision out of clarity because it's good for you and you feel empowered in that choice instead of like they won't change or I'm trapped.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love what you said about helping them realize how strong they actually are, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because because I think it's interesting how
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like disempowering, focusing entirely on how your partners behaviors are the true problem.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because you're basically saying, like, I can't handle whatever you're doing and the reaction that's happening, I can't handle it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you need to stop that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if you stop that, I will be okay.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like this shift of like, well, maybe you can handle it, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you can handle what's being triggered
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[SPEAKER_02]: you can actually learn from it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then maybe you can let your partner in in a vulnerable, open, hearted way about what's happening without focusing primarily on the source of it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And this is a conversation we out with a couple of the other day is like all of your focuses on the source.
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[SPEAKER_02]: is on the external stimulus.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's not on you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that's like a non-starter in a actual fruitful conversation with your partner.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I just got an email yesterday that relates to this from a client who gave me some feedback.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And we, last time we had met, we were talking about these two tough topics.
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[SPEAKER_03]: that when he would have this conversation would come up with his partner, it would trigger something in her, which would trigger something in him, and then, you know, we know how that goes.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so what we talked about is waiting for the right opportunity, like the situation matters, the climate matters when you're going to have a conversation, and also coming in with an open heart,
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[SPEAKER_03]: and with true curiosity, like asking a question with true curiosity and really wanting to know the answer while putting one's own needs on the shelf.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And he emailed yesterday and he said those two topics came up in a wonderfully serendipitous way.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We had them with ease and they was affirming and we left stronger.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And this work has been going on for a while and that wasn't always the case.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I totally agree.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And if I can say one more thing about what you shared about, you know, I'm a family therapist and here I am.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, I want to divorce every five days and, you know, it's a, and now you have the business.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So to me, this is that perfect going back to the opportunity, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's saying the wound is the gift.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so like these experiences are opportunities for all of us to grow in whatever areas we are to grow and that that helps us bring something not only to ourselves, but often to the world through that experience.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There's no way to get there without the growth and the tough stuff in my experience.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking about just like, when you have because you're a psychologist and I'm sure you've worked with a lot of trauma, we work with a lot of couples who have in fidelity and they want to try to make it work yet every day they're faced with the trigger, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like PTSD, like they're trying to become their best selves in a really bad situation while also
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[SPEAKER_01]: in this nervous system hijacked by flight fear, freeze right kind of PTSD symptoms, how do you help individuals?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like if it was a situation like that and you know, while every day they're kind of having these triggers at home because this infidelity just happened and it's like impossible for this person who's wounded to even see any strengths because they're in such a spiral because the road just got pulled beneath them
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that happens a lot, and it's really tough work.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: If you have two people who are committed, I mean, that's the first thing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: If you have two people who are committed to trying to repair is the first thing, because we've all been a part of it where one might not be, and that is very difficult.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm just going to go with when we have two people who really want to try to work through this.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Because we also know that when people can work through it, the relationship can actually be even stronger, not that we would ever want this to be the reason.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There's the patience and helping both individuals understand the process for recovery in a situation like this because the person who has cheated gets really tired of hearing about it over and over and over again and yet that is part of the process of healing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: and of accepting, and of doing some of those things that your partner might need you to do initially, which don't seem all that reasonable, but because they need to establish trust again.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And we also know a lot of the time the person who has been cheated upon has other experiences in their previous life that this just amplifies.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's a few things.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's one is on a very behavioral level, is putting the understanding in place in what needs to happen for the person, particularly who has been betrayed, to feel safe again, and how long that actually takes.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And then
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[SPEAKER_03]: To me the other conversation that comes out of this is let's learn more about each other and what leads one to feel this way and do this and what leads one to like to me it has to be empathy and it has to we have to increase empathy we have to increase awareness and again when I go back to is you have to have two people who are really committed to working this out because we all know how difficult these situations are.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But what I've found is there's also there's a direct relationship, not just in infinity, but any profound like fractures in relationship of like a direct relationship between the intensity of the fracture.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and the potential for each of their growth and also their deepening of their connection.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I can think of a couple of cases right off where some of the toughest infidelity cases that when they stuck with it for a year, a year and a half,
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[SPEAKER_02]: of really tough therapy had incredible relationships and both of them looked at some really really tough aspects of themselves, you know, and that whole both committed thing is so important because I think a lot of times in infidelity, the cheater,
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[SPEAKER_02]: doesn't get a lot of focus other than just helping the person who is cheated on get through it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that ability for them both to really look in a deep, thoughtful manner about how could, why did, how did that happen?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You know, what led to, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Now that's the take responsibility for their behaviors, but there's often a, you know, a multi-chapter layered story.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
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[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: trauma, big stuff from childhood, significant fractures within the relationship that have been not dealt with for long periods of time, a complicated environment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I do have to say something because Dr. Dan's heart is amazing that I feel like because we're like hope holders right in our I think ability to I can feel this from you like unconditional positive regard like non judgment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it's my number one like super power.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever has happened, whatever you did like it's okay.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I see you as a human with a heart.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I always say like Michael Singer heart with ears.
20:14.369 --> 20:18.437
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like that is a powerful step in healing.
20:18.497 --> 20:25.530
[SPEAKER_01]: Like having a therapist, a coat that you can really trust that can hold that hope.
20:25.510 --> 20:32.437
[SPEAKER_01]: and really accept the couple, the individual and this unconditional positive regard, that's huge.
20:33.078 --> 20:39.745
[SPEAKER_01]: Because when do you get to sit with someone who actually has no judgment, especially when you're judging yourself and having shame?
20:40.526 --> 20:49.155
[SPEAKER_01]: I just really have to like just because I can feel that from Dr. Dan and I've only met him over a screen for 45 minutes that the safety,
20:49.135 --> 20:49.556
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
20:49.776 --> 20:55.646
[SPEAKER_01]: The safety that people probably experience with you is what gives them the ability to see their strengths.
20:56.146 --> 20:57.509
[SPEAKER_01]: Because some of us don't have anybody.
20:57.769 --> 20:59.953
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, boy, do I feel seen right now?
21:00.594 --> 21:02.096
[SPEAKER_03]: Aw, thank you.
21:02.156 --> 21:02.797
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
21:03.058 --> 21:05.842
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, we're in complete alignment.
21:06.243 --> 21:08.507
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is where the repair comes from.
21:08.627 --> 21:12.493
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, whether it's in a couple situations or an individual situation is where
21:12.473 --> 21:15.198
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll back to Carl Rogers, right, and so many others.
21:15.318 --> 21:29.723
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like if someone can see you, it holds you in a way that you can be vulnerable and not feel like you're deficient and not feel the shame and that relationship.
21:29.703 --> 21:40.280
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, the research on all these helping relationships, like no matter what about the empirically-based treatments, it still always comes back to relationship, which is hard to quantify.
21:40.320 --> 21:41.242
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
21:41.382 --> 21:42.584
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'll also add to that.
21:43.025 --> 21:43.425
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
21:43.445 --> 21:53.702
[SPEAKER_03]: Because before I think I fully understood the power of the relationship, what I would say and still say to people is, what is the, like the therapeutic or the coaching high?
21:53.682 --> 22:02.476
[SPEAKER_03]: and it was having such a solid relationship with your client that you can say anything you think they need to hear and they accept it and say thank you.
22:03.157 --> 22:03.317
[SPEAKER_03]: Right?
22:03.397 --> 22:09.247
[SPEAKER_03]: Because sometimes you have to say some pretty tough things but it's that container by which it was like, oh, I'm cared for.
22:09.347 --> 22:12.432
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm actually, I feel like love from this person.
22:13.153 --> 22:13.974
[SPEAKER_03]: I can receive that.
22:14.215 --> 22:15.577
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
22:15.597 --> 22:15.657
[UNKNOWN]: No.
22:16.447 --> 22:20.613
[SPEAKER_02]: So, digging a little deeper just into you if you're okay with this.
22:21.354 --> 22:26.300
[SPEAKER_02]: We talked about earlier before we even started the interview about being kind of kind of kindergarten spirits.
22:26.320 --> 22:42.522
[SPEAKER_02]: You have a clinic, you've had a podcast prior to this, you have this new podcast that's really, really doing well and you're moving, like why, what are you doing, why are you
22:42.502 --> 22:51.139
[SPEAKER_02]: to include this media element and, you know, take that little bit of a risk, you know, of what they're doing something differently.
22:51.159 --> 22:56.008
[SPEAKER_03]: Gosh, that's a question that I both ask and not ask all the time, right?
22:56.068 --> 23:00.857
[SPEAKER_03]: So, I'm going to go back to, I might have been in graduate school.
23:01.238 --> 23:05.286
[SPEAKER_03]: So, growing up in the LA area, there were a couple radio touches.
23:05.671 --> 23:06.873
[SPEAKER_03]: And then, of course, I was Frazier.
23:07.654 --> 23:13.662
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was just always like, I had this pain, I was like, I wanna do that some day.
23:13.682 --> 23:18.349
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, before I even knew what that was, I'm like, I just felt compelled.
23:18.369 --> 23:24.097
[SPEAKER_03]: So that one thing has been compelled to be in these conversations in some form of media.
23:25.258 --> 23:28.523
[SPEAKER_03]: And then as I started my practice,
23:28.638 --> 23:34.502
[SPEAKER_03]: I really enjoy the intimate connections and the impact.
23:34.522 --> 23:39.542
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was limited to the people who were, I was across.
23:39.978 --> 23:49.574
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I would start to speak and then so that brought in it and then it was, I don't want to say, limited to scarce way, but it was limited in the sense of how many people were in the room.
23:50.336 --> 24:02.256
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we had this meeting and we had this podcast and so ever since this has become away for us to communicate and to connect and to help and to serve
24:02.793 --> 24:20.886
[SPEAKER_03]: It's been this drive, even when it doesn't make sense on paper necessarily, or with my time, or with, you know, all the different tapestry of activities, personal and professional, it's something that I check in with my wife all the time.
24:20.866 --> 24:38.301
[SPEAKER_03]: as okay like are we good with this should we should we keep doing this like is this something even though we don't know exactly where this is going and the answer even in the most questioning times which there's been a lot of those which is it's like it's yes when I meditate on it it's yes
24:39.040 --> 24:53.652
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think it comes down to another thing that I, you know, work a lot with is, is purpose and helping people find their purpose, whether it's little P purpose, um, as one of my guests, Jordan, uh, Dr. G. Grummit talks about or big P purpose.
24:53.712 --> 24:54.754
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like,
24:54.734 --> 25:10.262
[SPEAKER_03]: it's just I feel in purpose when I'm serving in general, but in a larger way when I know that the ripple effect, like you just don't know who a can hit, who a can reach, and where it could spread.
25:10.377 --> 25:30.647
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it's crazy like when you get that email from like Kalamazoo, Michigan, and it's like man I've been listening for this that this is what's happened for me and it's impacting my relationship and my family and your like man like it is it's it's powerful yeah
25:30.627 --> 25:37.084
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember when we had, but we're great therapists, terrible like business people, or like whatever, like getting better.
25:37.224 --> 25:37.966
[SPEAKER_02]: We're working on it.
25:37.986 --> 25:42.037
[SPEAKER_01]: Give you the shirt off our back and our, I remember we had hired some coaches back.
25:42.578 --> 25:46.408
[SPEAKER_01]: And the day they're like, you guys need to get rid of your podcast in this.
25:46.388 --> 25:48.451
[SPEAKER_01]: thing that you've got like money pouring into.
25:48.491 --> 25:52.095
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, we're firing them immediately.
25:52.115 --> 26:06.773
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the, this is the one thing because I know that we can reach people globally and share our story and validate and learn skills and relationships that are like effective.
26:07.354 --> 26:11.138
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, it was just that immediate, like because they're, again, we relate.
26:11.218 --> 26:11.839
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
26:11.819 --> 26:27.347
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, but there are times where it's like people are like why are you guys doing that and it's like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah And it was just like with you we question it and we're like no this is like our number one thing and we love it
26:27.327 --> 26:49.133
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, so if you don't mind, like give us a little more about like if somebody's listened to you and they're really connecting with your heart and your words, you know, how do they connect with you and what type of work are you, are you doing with individuals with, yeah, so my direct service now is really focused on the coaching.
26:49.535 --> 26:54.608
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is, as we've talked about, it's helping people access more of who they are.
26:54.628 --> 27:05.957
[SPEAKER_03]: And what has emerged to be a central theme in the work is moving from performing to presence.
27:06.460 --> 27:28.941
[SPEAKER_03]: and I draw on this from my work over the years but also from my own life of being someone who felt the need to achieve realizing over time how much my identity and my worth and value came from those achievements and having to explore those and really seeing clients
27:28.921 --> 27:34.168
[SPEAKER_03]: while taking them through a process is to realize that you are enough as you are.
27:35.410 --> 27:37.032
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you are enough as you are.
27:37.613 --> 27:39.075
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's where we get to presence.
27:39.816 --> 27:58.202
[SPEAKER_03]: And when we stop performing when we can unpack, whether we are an executive, whether we are a parent, whether we're a community leader, whether we are a person, a human who's trying to make the most of their life.
27:58.182 --> 28:06.265
[SPEAKER_03]: Like knowing there's more to life than what we've been sold than the rat race than all of the media and the technology.
28:06.285 --> 28:13.204
[SPEAKER_03]: Those are the people that just the work is so meaningful because we talk about
28:13.184 --> 28:22.445
[SPEAKER_03]: When you can access some more of who you are, when I say that, I think about the wisdom of our body and what our body tells us, learning to tap into our body because there's messages there.
28:23.367 --> 28:31.024
[SPEAKER_03]: Reading the energetic field, understanding the energy that is between us and around us, sometimes we call it the force, it's real.
28:31.004 --> 28:54.480
[SPEAKER_03]: learning to stand in our own integrity and our values, what we stand for, and how much getting in touch with that and living by that changes our experience of the world and our truth, and then finally tapping into whatever we call a higher power, a higher self, that's soul, the spiritual aspects that are in unavailable to us.
28:54.460 --> 29:10.326
[SPEAKER_03]: and seeing people just not only start to relax and ground and realize who they really are, but then excel in all of the areas that they were striving to excel in an authentic and grounded way.
29:11.234 --> 29:15.000
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I just had a year of therapy for your five minutes.
29:15.020 --> 29:28.600
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's really like it's mind blowing the potential that each human being has to radiate positivity and like just good into the world.
29:28.861 --> 29:31.605
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like it's crazy.
29:31.585 --> 29:36.234
[SPEAKER_02]: the potential that everybody has, and that's what, as you were saying that, that was I was just thinking.
29:36.796 --> 29:49.341
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's like, you know, a frickin' however many billion people and that, you know, what you're talking about is just like, helping each of those individuals, I'd love to say you are enough as you are.
29:49.321 --> 29:54.932
[SPEAKER_02]: right now, which is almost imperative to build into the potential.
29:55.052 --> 29:56.595
[SPEAKER_02]: You've got to be enough where you are right now.
29:56.755 --> 29:57.437
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
29:57.477 --> 30:00.362
[SPEAKER_02]: That has to be sort of a starting point for it.
30:00.382 --> 30:01.424
[SPEAKER_02]: So I love that.
30:01.444 --> 30:04.410
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's, and that's total regerian stuff right there, right?
30:04.390 --> 30:12.418
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we will, in our show notes, we'll definitely have a link to your podcast so people can check that out, we'll link to your website.
30:12.478 --> 30:17.984
[SPEAKER_02]: So if people want to connect with you individually, I'm sure there's a way on your website to grab you as well.
30:18.064 --> 30:18.804
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, guys.
30:18.824 --> 30:19.405
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thank you.
30:19.445 --> 30:25.291
[SPEAKER_02]: This has been like really, it's super thoughtful and warm and like a really nice conversation.
30:25.351 --> 30:27.793
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for listening.
30:27.933 --> 30:29.775
[SPEAKER_01]: You are enough as always.
30:29.815 --> 30:30.916
[SPEAKER_01]: Take care of yourself.
30:30.936 --> 30:31.877
[SPEAKER_01]: Take care of each other.
30:31.917 --> 30:32.558
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye bye.
30:36.318 --> 30:44.995
[SPEAKER_00]: Just singin' on the train, me and you listening to the rain Me and you, we are the same, me and you have all
00:00.031 --> 00:13.974
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're looking for a conversation today that's really going to center you, that's going to ground you and help you tap into your own incredible potential, then stay tuned with our interview with Dr. Dan for make it a great one.
00:14.455 --> 00:16.318
[SPEAKER_02]: It is a fantastic conversation.
00:16.378 --> 00:19.643
[SPEAKER_02]: It's thoughtful and I know you're going to get a ton out of it.
00:24.685 --> 00:28.009
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello all and welcome to the Relationship Innovation podcast.
00:28.209 --> 00:34.217
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Tara Kerwin and my name is EJ Kerwin and today We're very excited.
00:34.257 --> 00:45.451
[SPEAKER_02]: We just had a fantastic like intro conversation with a psychologist Dr. Dan from make it a great one Dr. Dan is the host of make it a great one podcast.
00:45.471 --> 00:46.433
[SPEAKER_02]: This is pretty incredible.
00:46.473 --> 00:49.917
[SPEAKER_02]: It is a top point five percent podcast
00:49.897 --> 00:50.638
[SPEAKER_02]: globally.
00:50.658 --> 00:55.104
[SPEAKER_02]: And if I'm right, just in a year, he's done that, which is incredible.
00:55.445 --> 01:00.752
[SPEAKER_02]: He shares insights on personal growth, relationships, and living with greater intention.
01:01.293 --> 01:08.944
[SPEAKER_02]: His work focuses on helping people shift their mindset, strengthen their connections, and create more meaningful lives.
01:09.024 --> 01:10.907
[SPEAKER_02]: That's amazing stuff.
01:10.927 --> 01:12.268
[SPEAKER_02]: And welcome, Dr. Dan.
01:12.288 --> 01:15.533
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we're lucky to have him to pick his
01:15.698 --> 01:16.419
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks guys.
01:16.479 --> 01:18.282
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been looking forward to this conversation.
01:18.322 --> 01:19.584
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's true.
01:19.604 --> 01:23.050
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's start before we go into the topic.
01:23.210 --> 01:25.494
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's give us just a little bit about yourself, Dan.
01:25.514 --> 01:27.677
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, how did you end up in this field?
01:28.178 --> 01:31.463
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what kind of catches you on fire with working with people?
01:31.443 --> 01:45.466
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I've been a psychologist practicing for close to 30 years now and my pull, my drive has always been, I just always seem potential in people.
01:45.627 --> 01:47.730
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, at a young age, I was always
01:47.710 --> 01:56.006
[SPEAKER_03]: with people, working with people, being a counselor and kids, worked with a lot of kids, a lot of youth, played tennis growing up.
01:56.087 --> 01:59.393
[SPEAKER_03]: It was a core part of my identity, taught a lot of tennis, did summer camps.
01:59.614 --> 02:03.782
[SPEAKER_03]: And when it came to go into school, the thing that kept pulling me is people.
02:04.203 --> 02:05.926
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's what led me into psychology.
02:06.186 --> 02:06.968
[SPEAKER_03]: And
02:06.948 --> 02:25.075
[SPEAKER_03]: that journey led me into working with lots of different people but a specializing in a subset of of what is called gifted or twice exceptional individuals now called neurodiverse people who have really exceptional abilities but also have a synchrony and their development and are often misunderstood.
02:25.055 --> 02:37.278
[SPEAKER_03]: and it still was potential, it was potential and helping people in a strength-based way realizing who they are for their highs, but also accepting their full cells, like we're all wired so differently.
02:37.999 --> 02:44.211
[SPEAKER_03]: And then a more recent formal pivot was, you know, I want to do this
02:44.191 --> 02:45.113
[SPEAKER_03]: in another way.
02:45.714 --> 02:51.664
[SPEAKER_03]: So I still direct our clinic and I still have clients that I long-term clients that I do counseling with.
02:52.546 --> 03:00.881
[SPEAKER_03]: But over a year ago, I said, you know, it just felt time to do something to expand and that expansion took me into executive leadership coaching and coaching in general.
03:01.482 --> 03:08.494
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, really helping people really see that potential in themselves and that life force that we all have and
03:08.474 --> 03:09.996
[SPEAKER_03]: accessing more of who they are.
03:10.136 --> 03:27.839
[SPEAKER_03]: Like we don't realize how many capabilities that we have growing up in our society with a lot of the programming and the messaging and the schooling and we have so much within us that can be accessed and that has become the cornerstone of my work.
03:28.039 --> 03:29.601
[SPEAKER_03]: And let me say one more thing.
03:29.882 --> 03:31.724
[SPEAKER_03]: I know being on the other side of this.
03:31.824 --> 03:37.131
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to be brief.
03:37.111 --> 03:46.104
[SPEAKER_03]: So running is for my mental health and my soul full and spiritual health, and during the lockdown days, I started to get these messages when everyone was scared.
03:46.164 --> 03:55.677
[SPEAKER_03]: We were all shut down, our community was messaging us on Facebook, and the message that kept coming to me was, you are to bring hope, connection, awareness, and wisdom.
03:55.657 --> 04:11.864
[SPEAKER_03]: and over and over and over and it stayed with me and that's what I had a former podcast right years called Parent Footprint with Dr. Dan and that is where the transition came from was to censure the podcast on bringing hope connection awareness and wisdom to the world.
04:12.525 --> 04:16.652
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I said before, even getting onto this podcast, I love you already.
04:16.632 --> 04:22.201
[SPEAKER_01]: That's your heart, work hindered spirits, absolutely.
04:22.241 --> 04:35.242
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, my tip of the day today was, I hope holders because right when things start to feel very fearful and we feel like this is the end of the story and there's no light at the end of the tunnel on a little never be different.
04:35.262 --> 04:39.870
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I've always been even that little girl who was stuck in this trauma childhood.
04:39.970 --> 04:42.454
[SPEAKER_01]: I like knew there was something more.
04:42.434 --> 04:47.881
[SPEAKER_01]: And my heart was healing from a young age too, so I just I relate to so many things you said.
04:47.901 --> 04:49.644
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, just so grateful you're here.
04:50.365 --> 04:56.252
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I think that that's a great segue into our topic, bringing hope and connection.
04:57.174 --> 05:11.833
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's a lot, you know, we have a bulk of our listeners are one or two people in a couple who are struggling, you know, they find us because they're in some level of despair around the connection.
05:11.813 --> 05:37.922
[SPEAKER_02]: and they're lacking that hope and one of the things that we really push people towards early on is because it's sometimes it's really hard to work on their connection immediately because there's so much water that's going to need the bridge and there's so much fracture to the security of their relationship that we center them on okay this is your opportunity to become your
05:37.902 --> 05:50.558
[SPEAKER_02]: and that actually this disruption that's going on in this suffering that's happening within your relationship, if you hold up a mirror, it's going to point you in the direction of your own personal growth.
05:50.878 --> 06:04.255
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you guys can both first make that you turn and set up pointing your finger and looking inward, we can stabilize like we can grab onto something and begin to pull out ourselves out of this place of despair.
06:04.355 --> 06:04.635
[SPEAKER_02]: And
06:04.615 --> 06:18.034
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we want to really look at see how you can help our audience in how you approach that idea of personal growth, because I love what you said, accessing who we are.
06:18.368 --> 06:20.392
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we are in alignment.
06:20.613 --> 06:29.791
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like all of us have been through tough times, whether they're individual, familial or in relationship in our primary, a couple of relationships, partnership.
06:30.573 --> 06:35.483
[SPEAKER_03]: And it is really hard in those times to see these as opportunities.
06:35.463 --> 06:41.450
[SPEAKER_03]: And yet, they are completely opportunities.
06:41.591 --> 06:48.920
[SPEAKER_03]: They are the messengers coming to us to tell us there is more to us.
06:49.300 --> 06:52.604
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the indicator for a growth opportunity.
06:53.305 --> 06:55.948
[SPEAKER_03]: And growth does not happen when we get a trophy.
06:56.349 --> 06:59.473
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, joy is wonderful and winning is wonderful.
06:59.633 --> 07:02.837
[SPEAKER_03]: And peak experiences and moments,
07:02.817 --> 07:03.738
[SPEAKER_03]: are wonderful.
07:04.199 --> 07:06.041
[SPEAKER_03]: We sell them learned from them.
07:06.862 --> 07:10.987
[SPEAKER_03]: We might get increased confidence in ourselves from them like, oh, I didn't know I can do that.
07:11.047 --> 07:11.868
[SPEAKER_03]: Now I can do that.
07:12.248 --> 07:15.412
[SPEAKER_03]: But when it comes to fundamental growth, they all come from the difficulty.
07:16.113 --> 07:21.339
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, we often talk about, you know, you can't know another until you know yourself.
07:21.960 --> 07:24.943
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't love another until you love yourself.
07:24.923 --> 07:36.504
[SPEAKER_03]: And we also know that in partnership, it is like that mirror where our partners like hold up a mirror to all of our traumas, our triggers, our shadow, all this stuff.
07:36.745 --> 07:41.413
[SPEAKER_03]: And we come together with our partners for lots of different reasons, but it's usually no
07:41.393 --> 07:47.283
[SPEAKER_03]: secret why we come together ultimately with our partners because they're there's something that attracts us.
07:47.363 --> 07:48.285
[SPEAKER_03]: It's familiar.
07:48.425 --> 07:49.587
[SPEAKER_03]: The patterns are familiar.
07:49.627 --> 07:51.590
[SPEAKER_03]: It's something we never had.
07:51.610 --> 07:52.873
[SPEAKER_03]: It's something we always had.
07:53.574 --> 07:58.963
[SPEAKER_03]: And so in these moments, it's really about looking inward.
07:58.943 --> 08:00.285
[SPEAKER_03]: and the self-reflection.
08:00.305 --> 08:19.028
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is where awareness, like awareness is the cornerstone in my experience, personal, professional of how do we gain more awareness of ourselves, of our place in the world, and of our partner, because when we go to our partners for, they need to meet this need.
08:19.008 --> 08:19.810
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, why?
08:19.850 --> 08:21.995
[SPEAKER_03]: Why do we have that need?
08:23.158 --> 08:24.903
[SPEAKER_03]: Can we meet that need?
08:24.983 --> 08:26.326
[SPEAKER_03]: Can we understand that need?
08:26.366 --> 08:33.203
[SPEAKER_03]: Can we start to become more whole ourselves before expecting the other to fill something within us?
08:33.807 --> 08:55.275
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that we're working so hard with a couple at the very beginning is they're so locked into the stimulus of the other person, you know, the things they're doing, the things they're saying, the ways they're acting, and they're almost that self-awareness is like,
08:55.255 --> 08:56.398
[SPEAKER_02]: gone, right?
08:56.418 --> 09:06.223
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, when you're working with an individual and you're hearing them throw a lot of like data at you about my partner distance, it's all external.
09:07.086 --> 09:10.294
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you help that person make that you turn?
09:10.274 --> 09:16.203
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think the first part is validating, like really validating those are needs that one wants that it's not getting met.
09:16.784 --> 09:24.976
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's important for us to hear those needs because it also helps uncover where the work can go and where the work is needed.
09:25.738 --> 09:30.004
[SPEAKER_03]: And so after hearing that, it's exploring.
09:29.984 --> 09:32.388
[SPEAKER_03]: Why do you want them to do this?
09:33.029 --> 09:34.912
[SPEAKER_03]: Why do you need them to do this?
09:35.653 --> 09:37.737
[SPEAKER_03]: How would it make you feel if they did do this?
09:37.797 --> 09:39.360
[SPEAKER_03]: How does it make you feel if they don't do this?
09:39.560 --> 09:51.520
[SPEAKER_03]: And where is it in yourself that you might be not fully aware or be realized
09:52.141 --> 09:55.905
[SPEAKER_03]: the abilities that you have and why you have these needs.
09:56.285 --> 10:01.291
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, this goes back to there's so much more of us than we're aware of.
10:01.611 --> 10:03.473
[SPEAKER_03]: Because again, we all come from different situations.
10:03.493 --> 10:07.297
[SPEAKER_03]: We all come from different paths and have different experiences that happen to us.
10:07.918 --> 10:10.741
[SPEAKER_03]: All of that just piles on this going to do, right?
10:11.401 --> 10:19.650
[SPEAKER_03]: And it takes, first of all, as you guys know from your work, it takes a relationship with someone that you trust.
10:19.630 --> 10:41.976
[SPEAKER_03]: to be able to go to these places that are really vulnerable and at times dark but know that you can help hold that with the person because me the work is really helping people realize how much they are and how strong they are and how many more abilities and coping mechanisms and resiliency they have then they think they do.
10:42.007 --> 11:00.100
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's so many times when, whether it's on our podcast or when we're guessing on other podcasts, that this is created from our own first year of marriage and having twins and a blended family and the twins had callic and I was like divorcing EJ every five days in the mini band we had to buy like I was a.
11:00.080 --> 11:07.151
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, I'd never been so overwhelmed in my life and what I really wanted to do was leave him, but I'm a marriage counselor for 20 years.
11:07.171 --> 11:09.274
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have to like, what is this information?
11:09.335 --> 11:14.963
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in knowing that I was very triggered and I wanted him to just protect me.
11:15.104 --> 11:17.367
[SPEAKER_01]: That that's my own childhood wound stuff.
11:18.048 --> 11:22.375
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I was co-dependent on that protection.
11:22.355 --> 11:29.469
[SPEAKER_01]: Because, again, I'm a therapist and so is E.J., we're compelled to make this work and doing that you turn that, like, I have to protect myself.
11:29.549 --> 11:31.212
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't be codependent on E.J.
11:31.252 --> 11:32.194
[SPEAKER_01]: being my protector.
11:32.234 --> 11:37.765
[SPEAKER_01]: However, all of the triggers from our relationship has made me grown into,
11:37.745 --> 11:42.415
[SPEAKER_01]: The person that I am today, so I'm so thankful for it in our in our lobby at our Counseling Center.
11:42.435 --> 11:44.680
[SPEAKER_01]: It says our partner can be our greatest teacher.
11:45.121 --> 11:46.384
[SPEAKER_01]: Be patient for the lessons.
11:47.607 --> 11:49.711
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's true because I trusted E.J.
11:49.772 --> 11:57.188
[SPEAKER_01]: at a very core level, but I didn't know the work I was going to do because I had no idea how triggering it would be.
11:57.168 --> 12:14.629
[SPEAKER_01]: So I love that that is the work you do because it is what sustained us and now we have this business but ten years later helping thousands of couples try to become their best selves together in a really difficult situation and it's not even about staying together.
12:14.669 --> 12:25.622
[SPEAKER_01]: Or as I go listen if you can at least make a decision out of clarity because it's good for you and you feel empowered in that choice instead of like they won't change or I'm trapped.
12:25.720 --> 12:33.626
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love what you said about helping them realize how strong they actually are, right?
12:33.686 --> 12:37.840
[SPEAKER_02]: Because because I think it's interesting how
12:37.938 --> 12:47.171
[SPEAKER_02]: Like disempowering, focusing entirely on how your partners behaviors are the true problem.
12:47.632 --> 12:54.662
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you're basically saying, like, I can't handle whatever you're doing and the reaction that's happening, I can't handle it.
12:54.702 --> 12:55.924
[SPEAKER_02]: So you need to stop that.
12:56.024 --> 12:59.188
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you stop that, I will be okay.
12:59.849 --> 13:03.154
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like this shift of like, well, maybe you can handle it, right?
13:03.174 --> 13:06.679
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you can handle what's being triggered
13:06.659 --> 13:08.521
[SPEAKER_02]: you can actually learn from it.
13:09.022 --> 13:20.638
[SPEAKER_02]: And then maybe you can let your partner in in a vulnerable, open, hearted way about what's happening without focusing primarily on the source of it.
13:20.778 --> 13:26.946
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is a conversation we out with a couple of the other day is like all of your focuses on the source.
13:26.926 --> 13:29.211
[SPEAKER_02]: is on the external stimulus.
13:29.271 --> 13:30.172
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not on you.
13:30.854 --> 13:36.645
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's like a non-starter in a actual fruitful conversation with your partner.
13:36.986 --> 13:37.547
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
13:37.748 --> 13:41.595
[SPEAKER_03]: I just got an email yesterday that relates to this from a client who gave me some feedback.
13:42.056 --> 13:48.529
[SPEAKER_03]: And we, last time we had met, we were talking about these two tough topics.
13:48.509 --> 13:58.162
[SPEAKER_03]: that when he would have this conversation would come up with his partner, it would trigger something in her, which would trigger something in him, and then, you know, we know how that goes.
13:58.702 --> 14:12.340
[SPEAKER_03]: And so what we talked about is waiting for the right opportunity, like the situation matters, the climate matters when you're going to have a conversation, and also coming in with an open heart,
14:12.320 --> 14:24.095
[SPEAKER_03]: and with true curiosity, like asking a question with true curiosity and really wanting to know the answer while putting one's own needs on the shelf.
14:25.117 --> 14:31.345
[SPEAKER_03]: And he emailed yesterday and he said those two topics came up in a wonderfully serendipitous way.
14:31.885 --> 14:35.891
[SPEAKER_03]: We had them with ease and they was affirming and we left stronger.
14:36.511 --> 14:41.618
[SPEAKER_03]: And this work has been going on for a while and that wasn't always the case.
14:41.598 --> 14:43.161
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
14:43.341 --> 14:44.203
[SPEAKER_03]: I totally agree.
14:44.403 --> 14:51.797
[SPEAKER_03]: And if I can say one more thing about what you shared about, you know, I'm a family therapist and here I am.
14:51.837 --> 14:56.647
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, I want to divorce every five days and, you know, it's a, and now you have the business.
14:56.807 --> 15:00.053
[SPEAKER_03]: So to me, this is that perfect going back to the opportunity, right?
15:00.394 --> 15:00.754
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
15:00.774 --> 15:02.678
[SPEAKER_03]: That's saying the wound is the gift.
15:03.080 --> 15:03.300
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
15:03.401 --> 15:16.145
[SPEAKER_03]: And so like these experiences are opportunities for all of us to grow in whatever areas we are to grow and that that helps us bring something not only to ourselves, but often to the world through that experience.
15:16.185 --> 15:22.658
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no way to get there without the growth and the tough stuff in my experience.
15:23.245 --> 15:38.872
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking about just like, when you have because you're a psychologist and I'm sure you've worked with a lot of trauma, we work with a lot of couples who have in fidelity and they want to try to make it work yet every day they're faced with the trigger, right?
15:38.892 --> 15:47.447
[SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like PTSD, like they're trying to become their best selves in a really bad situation while also
15:47.427 --> 15:55.877
[SPEAKER_01]: in this nervous system hijacked by flight fear, freeze right kind of PTSD symptoms, how do you help individuals?
15:55.917 --> 16:14.920
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if it was a situation like that and you know, while every day they're kind of having these triggers at home because this infidelity just happened and it's like impossible for this person who's wounded to even see any strengths because they're in such a spiral because the road just got pulled beneath them
16:15.068 --> 16:18.211
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that happens a lot, and it's really tough work.
16:18.492 --> 16:19.273
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
16:19.293 --> 16:23.837
[SPEAKER_03]: If you have two people who are committed, I mean, that's the first thing.
16:23.857 --> 16:32.627
[SPEAKER_03]: If you have two people who are committed to trying to repair is the first thing, because we've all been a part of it where one might not be, and that is very difficult.
16:33.027 --> 16:36.271
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm just going to go with when we have two people who really want to try to work through this.
16:36.571 --> 16:36.992
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
16:37.012 --> 16:44.940
[SPEAKER_03]: Because we also know that when people can work through it, the relationship can actually be even stronger, not that we would ever want this to be the reason.
16:44.920 --> 17:05.308
[SPEAKER_03]: There's the patience and helping both individuals understand the process for recovery in a situation like this because the person who has cheated gets really tired of hearing about it over and over and over again and yet that is part of the process of healing.
17:05.288 --> 17:16.587
[SPEAKER_03]: and of accepting, and of doing some of those things that your partner might need you to do initially, which don't seem all that reasonable, but because they need to establish trust again.
17:16.647 --> 17:27.145
[SPEAKER_03]: And we also know a lot of the time the person who has been cheated upon has other experiences in their previous life that this just amplifies.
17:27.125 --> 17:28.107
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a few things.
17:28.267 --> 17:44.262
[SPEAKER_03]: It's one is on a very behavioral level, is putting the understanding in place in what needs to happen for the person, particularly who has been betrayed, to feel safe again, and how long that actually takes.
17:45.064 --> 17:46.146
[SPEAKER_03]: And then
17:46.126 --> 18:11.948
[SPEAKER_03]: To me the other conversation that comes out of this is let's learn more about each other and what leads one to feel this way and do this and what leads one to like to me it has to be empathy and it has to we have to increase empathy we have to increase awareness and again when I go back to is you have to have two people who are really committed to working this out because we all know how difficult these situations are.
18:12.502 --> 18:28.435
[SPEAKER_02]: But what I've found is there's also there's a direct relationship, not just in infinity, but any profound like fractures in relationship of like a direct relationship between the intensity of the fracture.
18:28.415 --> 18:34.005
[SPEAKER_02]: and the potential for each of their growth and also their deepening of their connection.
18:34.045 --> 18:44.483
[SPEAKER_02]: I can think of a couple of cases right off where some of the toughest infidelity cases that when they stuck with it for a year, a year and a half,
18:44.463 --> 19:03.568
[SPEAKER_02]: of really tough therapy had incredible relationships and both of them looked at some really really tough aspects of themselves, you know, and that whole both committed thing is so important because I think a lot of times in infidelity, the cheater,
19:03.548 --> 19:10.837
[SPEAKER_02]: doesn't get a lot of focus other than just helping the person who is cheated on get through it.
19:12.019 --> 19:19.288
[SPEAKER_02]: And that ability for them both to really look in a deep, thoughtful manner about how could, why did, how did that happen?
19:19.689 --> 19:19.889
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
19:20.109 --> 19:21.852
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, what led to, right?
19:21.892 --> 19:30.002
[SPEAKER_03]: Now that's the take responsibility for their behaviors, but there's often a, you know, a multi-chapter layered story.
19:30.523 --> 19:31.164
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
19:31.464 --> 19:31.564
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
19:32.185 --> 19:45.655
[SPEAKER_02]: trauma, big stuff from childhood, significant fractures within the relationship that have been not dealt with for long periods of time, a complicated environment.
19:45.753 --> 20:01.945
[SPEAKER_01]: I do have to say something because Dr. Dan's heart is amazing that I feel like because we're like hope holders right in our I think ability to I can feel this from you like unconditional positive regard like non judgment.
20:01.965 --> 20:04.470
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it's my number one like super power.
20:04.450 --> 20:08.418
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever has happened, whatever you did like it's okay.
20:08.438 --> 20:10.542
[SPEAKER_01]: I see you as a human with a heart.
20:10.562 --> 20:13.647
[SPEAKER_01]: I always say like Michael Singer heart with ears.
20:14.369 --> 20:18.437
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like that is a powerful step in healing.
20:18.497 --> 20:25.530
[SPEAKER_01]: Like having a therapist, a coat that you can really trust that can hold that hope.
20:25.510 --> 20:32.437
[SPEAKER_01]: and really accept the couple, the individual and this unconditional positive regard, that's huge.
20:33.078 --> 20:39.745
[SPEAKER_01]: Because when do you get to sit with someone who actually has no judgment, especially when you're judging yourself and having shame?
20:40.526 --> 20:49.155
[SPEAKER_01]: I just really have to like just because I can feel that from Dr. Dan and I've only met him over a screen for 45 minutes that the safety,
20:49.135 --> 20:49.556
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
20:49.776 --> 20:55.646
[SPEAKER_01]: The safety that people probably experience with you is what gives them the ability to see their strengths.
20:56.146 --> 20:57.509
[SPEAKER_01]: Because some of us don't have anybody.
20:57.769 --> 20:59.953
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, boy, do I feel seen right now?
21:00.594 --> 21:02.096
[SPEAKER_03]: Aw, thank you.
21:02.156 --> 21:02.797
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
21:03.058 --> 21:05.842
[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, we're in complete alignment.
21:06.243 --> 21:08.507
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is where the repair comes from.
21:08.627 --> 21:12.493
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, whether it's in a couple situations or an individual situation is where
21:12.473 --> 21:15.198
[SPEAKER_03]: I'll back to Carl Rogers, right, and so many others.
21:15.318 --> 21:29.723
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like if someone can see you, it holds you in a way that you can be vulnerable and not feel like you're deficient and not feel the shame and that relationship.
21:29.703 --> 21:40.280
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, the research on all these helping relationships, like no matter what about the empirically-based treatments, it still always comes back to relationship, which is hard to quantify.
21:40.320 --> 21:41.242
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
21:41.382 --> 21:42.584
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'll also add to that.
21:43.025 --> 21:43.425
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
21:43.445 --> 21:53.702
[SPEAKER_03]: Because before I think I fully understood the power of the relationship, what I would say and still say to people is, what is the, like the therapeutic or the coaching high?
21:53.682 --> 22:02.476
[SPEAKER_03]: and it was having such a solid relationship with your client that you can say anything you think they need to hear and they accept it and say thank you.
22:03.157 --> 22:03.317
[SPEAKER_03]: Right?
22:03.397 --> 22:09.247
[SPEAKER_03]: Because sometimes you have to say some pretty tough things but it's that container by which it was like, oh, I'm cared for.
22:09.347 --> 22:12.432
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm actually, I feel like love from this person.
22:13.153 --> 22:13.974
[SPEAKER_03]: I can receive that.
22:14.215 --> 22:15.577
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
22:15.597 --> 22:15.657
[UNKNOWN]: No.
22:16.447 --> 22:20.613
[SPEAKER_02]: So, digging a little deeper just into you if you're okay with this.
22:21.354 --> 22:26.300
[SPEAKER_02]: We talked about earlier before we even started the interview about being kind of kind of kindergarten spirits.
22:26.320 --> 22:42.522
[SPEAKER_02]: You have a clinic, you've had a podcast prior to this, you have this new podcast that's really, really doing well and you're moving, like why, what are you doing, why are you
22:42.502 --> 22:51.139
[SPEAKER_02]: to include this media element and, you know, take that little bit of a risk, you know, of what they're doing something differently.
22:51.159 --> 22:56.008
[SPEAKER_03]: Gosh, that's a question that I both ask and not ask all the time, right?
22:56.068 --> 23:00.857
[SPEAKER_03]: So, I'm going to go back to, I might have been in graduate school.
23:01.238 --> 23:05.286
[SPEAKER_03]: So, growing up in the LA area, there were a couple radio touches.
23:05.671 --> 23:06.873
[SPEAKER_03]: And then, of course, I was Frazier.
23:07.654 --> 23:13.662
[SPEAKER_03]: And I was just always like, I had this pain, I was like, I wanna do that some day.
23:13.682 --> 23:18.349
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, before I even knew what that was, I'm like, I just felt compelled.
23:18.369 --> 23:24.097
[SPEAKER_03]: So that one thing has been compelled to be in these conversations in some form of media.
23:25.258 --> 23:28.523
[SPEAKER_03]: And then as I started my practice,
23:28.638 --> 23:34.502
[SPEAKER_03]: I really enjoy the intimate connections and the impact.
23:34.522 --> 23:39.542
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was limited to the people who were, I was across.
23:39.978 --> 23:49.574
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I would start to speak and then so that brought in it and then it was, I don't want to say, limited to scarce way, but it was limited in the sense of how many people were in the room.
23:50.336 --> 24:02.256
[SPEAKER_03]: And then we had this meeting and we had this podcast and so ever since this has become away for us to communicate and to connect and to help and to serve
24:02.793 --> 24:20.886
[SPEAKER_03]: It's been this drive, even when it doesn't make sense on paper necessarily, or with my time, or with, you know, all the different tapestry of activities, personal and professional, it's something that I check in with my wife all the time.
24:20.866 --> 24:38.301
[SPEAKER_03]: as okay like are we good with this should we should we keep doing this like is this something even though we don't know exactly where this is going and the answer even in the most questioning times which there's been a lot of those which is it's like it's yes when I meditate on it it's yes
24:39.040 --> 24:53.652
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think it comes down to another thing that I, you know, work a lot with is, is purpose and helping people find their purpose, whether it's little P purpose, um, as one of my guests, Jordan, uh, Dr. G. Grummit talks about or big P purpose.
24:53.712 --> 24:54.754
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like,
24:54.734 --> 25:10.262
[SPEAKER_03]: it's just I feel in purpose when I'm serving in general, but in a larger way when I know that the ripple effect, like you just don't know who a can hit, who a can reach, and where it could spread.
25:10.377 --> 25:30.647
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it's crazy like when you get that email from like Kalamazoo, Michigan, and it's like man I've been listening for this that this is what's happened for me and it's impacting my relationship and my family and your like man like it is it's it's powerful yeah
25:30.627 --> 25:37.084
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember when we had, but we're great therapists, terrible like business people, or like whatever, like getting better.
25:37.224 --> 25:37.966
[SPEAKER_02]: We're working on it.
25:37.986 --> 25:42.037
[SPEAKER_01]: Give you the shirt off our back and our, I remember we had hired some coaches back.
25:42.578 --> 25:46.408
[SPEAKER_01]: And the day they're like, you guys need to get rid of your podcast in this.
25:46.388 --> 25:48.451
[SPEAKER_01]: thing that you've got like money pouring into.
25:48.491 --> 25:52.095
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, we're firing them immediately.
25:52.115 --> 26:06.773
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the, this is the one thing because I know that we can reach people globally and share our story and validate and learn skills and relationships that are like effective.
26:07.354 --> 26:11.138
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, it was just that immediate, like because they're, again, we relate.
26:11.218 --> 26:11.839
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
26:11.819 --> 26:27.347
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, but there are times where it's like people are like why are you guys doing that and it's like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah And it was just like with you we question it and we're like no this is like our number one thing and we love it
26:27.327 --> 26:49.133
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, so if you don't mind, like give us a little more about like if somebody's listened to you and they're really connecting with your heart and your words, you know, how do they connect with you and what type of work are you, are you doing with individuals with, yeah, so my direct service now is really focused on the coaching.
26:49.535 --> 26:54.608
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is, as we've talked about, it's helping people access more of who they are.
26:54.628 --> 27:05.957
[SPEAKER_03]: And what has emerged to be a central theme in the work is moving from performing to presence.
27:06.460 --> 27:28.941
[SPEAKER_03]: and I draw on this from my work over the years but also from my own life of being someone who felt the need to achieve realizing over time how much my identity and my worth and value came from those achievements and having to explore those and really seeing clients
27:28.921 --> 27:34.168
[SPEAKER_03]: while taking them through a process is to realize that you are enough as you are.
27:35.410 --> 27:37.032
[SPEAKER_03]: Like you are enough as you are.
27:37.613 --> 27:39.075
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's where we get to presence.
27:39.816 --> 27:58.202
[SPEAKER_03]: And when we stop performing when we can unpack, whether we are an executive, whether we are a parent, whether we're a community leader, whether we are a person, a human who's trying to make the most of their life.
27:58.182 --> 28:06.265
[SPEAKER_03]: Like knowing there's more to life than what we've been sold than the rat race than all of the media and the technology.
28:06.285 --> 28:13.204
[SPEAKER_03]: Those are the people that just the work is so meaningful because we talk about
28:13.184 --> 28:22.445
[SPEAKER_03]: When you can access some more of who you are, when I say that, I think about the wisdom of our body and what our body tells us, learning to tap into our body because there's messages there.
28:23.367 --> 28:31.024
[SPEAKER_03]: Reading the energetic field, understanding the energy that is between us and around us, sometimes we call it the force, it's real.
28:31.004 --> 28:54.480
[SPEAKER_03]: learning to stand in our own integrity and our values, what we stand for, and how much getting in touch with that and living by that changes our experience of the world and our truth, and then finally tapping into whatever we call a higher power, a higher self, that's soul, the spiritual aspects that are in unavailable to us.
28:54.460 --> 29:10.326
[SPEAKER_03]: and seeing people just not only start to relax and ground and realize who they really are, but then excel in all of the areas that they were striving to excel in an authentic and grounded way.
29:11.234 --> 29:15.000
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I just had a year of therapy for your five minutes.
29:15.020 --> 29:28.600
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's really like it's mind blowing the potential that each human being has to radiate positivity and like just good into the world.
29:28.861 --> 29:31.605
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like it's crazy.
29:31.585 --> 29:36.234
[SPEAKER_02]: the potential that everybody has, and that's what, as you were saying that, that was I was just thinking.
29:36.796 --> 29:49.341
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's like, you know, a frickin' however many billion people and that, you know, what you're talking about is just like, helping each of those individuals, I'd love to say you are enough as you are.
29:49.321 --> 29:54.932
[SPEAKER_02]: right now, which is almost imperative to build into the potential.
29:55.052 --> 29:56.595
[SPEAKER_02]: You've got to be enough where you are right now.
29:56.755 --> 29:57.437
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
29:57.477 --> 30:00.362
[SPEAKER_02]: That has to be sort of a starting point for it.
30:00.382 --> 30:01.424
[SPEAKER_02]: So I love that.
30:01.444 --> 30:04.410
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's, and that's total regerian stuff right there, right?
30:04.390 --> 30:12.418
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we will, in our show notes, we'll definitely have a link to your podcast so people can check that out, we'll link to your website.
30:12.478 --> 30:17.984
[SPEAKER_02]: So if people want to connect with you individually, I'm sure there's a way on your website to grab you as well.
30:18.064 --> 30:18.804
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks, guys.
30:18.824 --> 30:19.405
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thank you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This has been like really, it's super thoughtful and warm and like a really nice conversation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for listening.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You are enough as always.
30:29.815 --> 30:30.916
[SPEAKER_01]: Take care of yourself.
30:30.936 --> 30:31.877
[SPEAKER_01]: Take care of each other.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Bye bye.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Just singin' on the train, me and you listening to the rain Me and you, we are the same, me and you have all
