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This is Power Onward,
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the podcast that unveils how power
technology shapes your everyday life.
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You are listening to Power Onward.
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What is Powering Your World? Power Onward.
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This is Power Onward,
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the podcast that unveils how power
technology shapes your everyday life.
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What if the waste we throw away could
power the trucks that bring our world to
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life, food waste, farm waste, and
even trash from your local landfill.
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It's called renewable natural gas or RNG,
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and it's turning what we throw away into
the fuel that keeps our world moving
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from package deliveries
to long-haul trucking.
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RNG is quietly reshaping how
goods get from point A to point B,
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pushing us all closer to
a cleaner future. I'm Kim.
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And I'm Dave.
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So Dave,
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I've heard the phrase turning trash into
transportation and it really does sound
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too good to be true. So
talk to me about RNG.
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Sure, Kim. I like that
phrase. I like to think of it.
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One man's trash is another man's
treasure or fuel in this case.
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And when we think about
trash in waste streams,
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did you know that we produce
in the US over 300 million
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tons of trash per year? A
ton per person per year.
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In addition, a lot of that's food waste.
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So 30 to 40% of our food
goes into a waste stream.
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So that's just pure trash.
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And there's over 10 million
dairy cattle in the US and
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that there is 5 million tons
of wastewater biosolids,
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and those are just part of our
waste stream, which are problems.
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There are problems that we need
to resolve and RNG can be that
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solution, RNG, which is
renewable natural gas.
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We always throw those three letters out.
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Yes, so RNG comes from waste,
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but what exactly does
that process look like?
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So think about our trash
going into a landfill,
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and so it breaks down
the organic material,
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breaks down in a non-oxygen
environment, so that's anaerobic.
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And so then it eventually
produces methane and CO2
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primarily.
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Now you can also artificially
do that with digesters.
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Those are other waste streams like food
waste that's diverted to a digester
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or dairy cattle manure or
other animal waste streams or
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other ag waste.
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And then it's put into a digester
and then anaerobically digested again
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without oxygen and outcomes methane,
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CO2 and just a few other things.
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So scrub those gases up or
clean them up and now you've got
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effectively 95 or more
percent pure methane.
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That's basically renewable natural gas,
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but it's exactly the same thing as
natural gas. It's in our pipeline,
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it comes into our homes every day.
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Wow. That's not as complicated
as I thought it would be.
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It really is just a series of
chemical reactions and like you said,
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you scrub them up and clean
it up and there it is.
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Yeah,
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you just separate out the CO2 can
be captured or released separately
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and get out some moisture
and things like that.
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So what type of vehicles and operations
can actually benefit from RNG or
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renewable natural gas?
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So from a commercial and Cummins
commercial vehicle space,
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we use engines, sell
engines into transit buses,
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medium duty trucks, vocational trucks,
and then regional and line haul trucks.
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It's everywhere. We have a diesel engine,
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we have a natural gas engine
which can use renewable natural
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gas as a solution for that and then fits
right into the operation that they're
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used to today.
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So exactly how does RNG
help fleets, decarbonize?
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We had talked about sustainability,
economic efficiency,
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and even a competitive edge. Right?
Can you tell me more about that?
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That's right.
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So by using the waste stream and
producing renewable natural gas
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and then displacing higher
carbon fuel like diesel,
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it's a win-win for the environment
because we get the reduction in our
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waste streams or managed or controlled,
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and then we're not using fuel
that comes out of the ground,
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we're producing our own fuel and fleets
can use that to then they've got a
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lower cost fuel in natural
gas, renewable natural gas.
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So there's an economic win for them
and there's a sustainability or an
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environmental, and depending on what
they're going for, it's lower NOx.
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So nitrogen oxides into the
atmosphere and it's also lower
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carbon. So from a well to wheel
perspective, renewable natural gas,
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natural gas in itself is lower
carbon intensity than diesel.
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And renewable natural gas can be
an extremely low carbon intensity
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fuel. It can be negative in
some cases like dairy manure. By
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capturing that methane, it
can be 300, 400, 500 negative
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carbon intensity.
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For those who want to know what does
carbon intensity is effectively the
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equivalent CO2 per unit of energy.
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So if diesel's a hundred
CI and NG can be about 80,
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and then when you go to
renewable natural gas
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can be different sources and
methods can be different numbers.
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So landfill gas to
wastewater to dairy manure,
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and it can be really
negative. In fact, California,
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they have a low carbon fuel
standard system out there,
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so they measure all the
fuels that vehicles use.
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And renewable natural gas has
an average carbon intensity of
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minus 194 as compared to a hundred for
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diesel,
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and that's 99% of natural gas trucks and
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vehicles in California
use renewable natural gas.
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So it's a huge win for the fleets,
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for California, for the
environment for the United States.
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90% Is way more than
I would ever envision.
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I didn't realize how prevalent
and how present this all is.
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Yeah, it's 99% in California
and for the US overall it's over
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79% of commercial transportation is using
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renewable natural gas.
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So this is probably why I've been
hearing various companies such as waste
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management companies that are continuing
to displace their diesel with RNG
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trucks. Right?
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That's exactly right.
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Over 60% of new refuge trucks are c and g
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or compressed natural gas.
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And so of that majority of them
effectively are renewable natural gas.
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And some of the refuse companies produce
their own natural gas or renewable
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natural gas because again, the landfills,
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they're huge sources of
natural gas production.
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And so waste management as an example,
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does that very thing as
do many of the others.
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Dave, you mentioned CNG. So what's
the difference between CNG and RNG?
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So if you think about it,
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it's natural gas and it can be
stored on a vehicle as compressed
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natural gas or as a liquid,
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but then the source of that
gas can be fossil natural
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gas IE weld right out of the ground where
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it can be renewable natural gas.
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And so then that's coming from
a renewable biodegraded organic
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material.
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So you always see C and G
and RNG kind of thrown around
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C and G and LNG. You just really
how it gets soared on the field.
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Got it.
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You mentioned the dairy farms and the
first time one of our colleagues had told
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me that one of the dairy farm
companies that I'm a big fan of,
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they use the methane from the ways from
the cows on their farms to then fuel
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their fleets, which I thought
was freely really efficient.
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So are there any other testimonials that
showcase why RNG should matter to all
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of us or fun stories that we can
talk about on this shit show?
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Love it. I love it.
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One of our customers that we started
field testing with in the development
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program who are the X15N,
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they were going to haul
manure for air farms
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to a digester.
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And when they realized the
capability that the engine had,
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they were using charge wealth
leader engines to do it already.
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They use the 15 wheeler to then haul
milk because obviously the dairy
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cows, one of the things that
comes out of a dairy cow is milk.
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And so they collect the
milk in the Arizona area,
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and so they are able to haul
over 120,000 pound tankers
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of milk with the X 15 in.
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So now they're hauling manure with
natural gas engines or renewable
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natural gas as the fuel's being created
there and they're going out and then
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collecting the milk from those
same dairy farms and taking it
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to the dairy processing.
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So you've get almost a full circle
economy there where the cows
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produce milk and it's hauled with
renewable natural gas back to
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packaging.
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And then you have the excrement
of the dairy cows that is then
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hauled away to a digester to
then produce fuel to then run
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all of those trucks. So
it's beautiful. And in fact,
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they even named their first test truck
a big Bertha because it was such a heavy
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haul truck and they love it.
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Big Bertha is a very fitting
name for that big hauler.
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I can't get over the fact that I
am finding this full cycle very
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satisfying. And again,
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we're talking about excrement and waste
and it's just how it comes together so
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beautifully for those
companies. And again,
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very satisfying to see that full circle
and have very minimal waste come from
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all of this.
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It's moving to see RNG displacing our
diesel fuel and some might say it's
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utterly a great way to make
use of that waste stream.
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I had to work my dad joke in there, Kim.
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I'm welcoming all the dad jokes and that
one actually took me a little bit off
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guard, so that was a good one. All right.
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So I guess what I'm hearing is that
RNG isn't really new, it's just better.
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And you had mentioned the X15N engine,
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and I remember hearing that it was in
full production in our Jamestown engine
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plant up in New York.
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So how has this first year shaped the
industry's view of natural gas as a
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viable solution?
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Sure. Yeah. RNG is not new.
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It's been around forever in
various forms of how we use those
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types of waste streams,
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but the very first industrialized
RNG facility was like in
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1982 in New York on Staten Island.
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So a little fun fact for you,
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but now there's over 500
RNG production facilities.
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And so not only is the quantity
of going from one landfill on
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Staten Island to now RNG
production facilities,
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500 plus operational
today and another nearly
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500 more either in
construction or planned,
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the quantities growing and then the
technology going into 'em to really
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optimize,
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make 'em the most efficient
producers of renewable fuel.
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And so you talked about the
one year anniversary, the X15N.
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It's been fabulous, right?
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We've had people refer to it as it's
a game changer for the industry,
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which is pretty exciting to hear that
reference. And so there's been a lot of
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excitement,
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a lot of customers who were
natural gas customers with us
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adopting,
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but also customers who have
never used natural gas and
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they're trying it out, they're
moving some of their fleet over.
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And then what really gets exciting
is when we see repeat buys.
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So even within the one year we've got
customers that jumped in the line right
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away, got trucks, tried 'em out, and
now they've re-upped their order.
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And in some cases we've had
a third order from customers,
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and that's all just within one
year. It's really exciting.
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We've won some awards. I was just in
New York City on behalf of Cummins,
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receiving an award for the
X15N with FedEx Leadership
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Visionary Award from Energy Vision.
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We won an award through
TMC just earlier this year,
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and heavy duty trucking awarded
Cummins one of the top 20 new products
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just a couple years ago.
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So pretty exciting for to be a
part of a program and an engine
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that is a game changer.
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That's sensational all
of this within a year.
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It's very telling and it
speaks volume on the product.
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And for anyone who's listening on audio
platforms and not watching on YouTube,
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Dave actually has his X15N come
and shirt on to represent this.
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So he's a game changer
and a trend setter now.
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Thanks, Kim.
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Earlier, I did want to
touch on something else.
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You had mentioned the quantity of RNG
being way more available than it has been
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before, and I think that's a
common misconception about RNG.
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So tell me about some other
misconceptions about natural gas.
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Sure. Some people like said, is there
going to be enough? Is there enough?
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We continue to invent new waste streams.
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I mentioned a few,
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but those continue to grow as we
try to manage the waste that we
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continue to produce.
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We're going to see
landfill waste increase by
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60 to 70% by 2050.
That's staggering alone.
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So more RNG is coming and
we're going to continue to have
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farms and produce food
and produce waste there.
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So economically, some people
think it's expensive, right?
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00:14:25,690 --> 00:14:30,640
And it's not really natural gas is
cheaper than diesel. Generally speaking,
236
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,740
it's a much more stable fuel price.
237
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,400
So therefore there's a huge economic win,
238
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,750
a fleet to make that investment
move over to natural gas,
239
00:14:40,780 --> 00:14:42,310
renewable natural gas,
240
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,230
and then the payoff on that capital
investment. At the same time,
241
00:14:47,230 --> 00:14:50,230
get the environmental, probably
most people don't know it,
242
00:14:50,380 --> 00:14:53,630
but the US is a part of a methane pledge.
243
00:14:53,870 --> 00:14:58,580
We want to reduce
globally methane by 30% by
244
00:14:58,580 --> 00:14:59,810
2030, right?
245
00:14:59,810 --> 00:15:04,100
That's methane released into
the atmosphere and there
are all kinds of sources
246
00:15:04,100 --> 00:15:07,250
of that. But some of
these ag waste landfills,
247
00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:11,990
those are sources of methane
that get into the atmosphere and
248
00:15:12,020 --> 00:15:14,750
methane. Just another
quick fact for you, Kim,
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00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,710
it's 28 times worse than c2.
250
00:15:19,070 --> 00:15:22,010
So CO2 gets all the limelight it.
251
00:15:22,010 --> 00:15:22,760
Does.
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00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,530
Or all the blame does, but methane,
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00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:29,360
28 times over a hundred years
kind of look at it's 28 times
254
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:30,470
worse than co2.
255
00:15:30,530 --> 00:15:35,150
So our biggest impact we can
make is really tackling that
256
00:15:35,150 --> 00:15:38,000
methane right away and we
can make a huge impact.
257
00:15:39,260 --> 00:15:43,310
For a long time, basically,
since before we spoke,
258
00:15:44,540 --> 00:15:48,470
I really thought carbon dioxide was the
biggest culprit. It was the biggest.
259
00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:53,180
We always talk about CO2 reduction and
learning that methane is far more toxic
260
00:15:53,180 --> 00:15:57,620
and pollutant in the air. Again, it's
a fun fact. Very interesting fact,
261
00:15:57,620 --> 00:16:00,620
but also not so fun because
nobody wants that. Nobody asked.
262
00:16:00,620 --> 00:16:01,453
For that. That's right.
263
00:16:01,460 --> 00:16:05,930
One of the things that we have discussed
now is that the displacement of
264
00:16:06,170 --> 00:16:09,020
diesel technology into
more of the natural gas,
265
00:16:09,620 --> 00:16:11,810
is this what we would
consider a bridge fuel?
266
00:16:12,140 --> 00:16:14,300
It all depends on what
you consider a bridge,
267
00:16:14,630 --> 00:16:19,100
but I think it's a very long bridge,
right? So renewable natural gas,
268
00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:23,570
natural gas engines really
are the easiest step
269
00:16:23,660 --> 00:16:28,220
into a low carbon fuel
situation for a fleet.
270
00:16:28,610 --> 00:16:32,090
It slips right into their
operation, fuels fast,
271
00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:36,710
it's very familiar kind of
technology and really can do the
272
00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:40,370
job that diesel does.
So that's the easy part,
273
00:16:40,820 --> 00:16:45,590
but it does pave the way for
other future gaseous fuels,
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00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:50,420
perhaps hydrogen or other
technologies where it's just a lower
275
00:16:50,420 --> 00:16:53,570
carbon fuel, but maybe
some other things to learn.
276
00:16:53,570 --> 00:16:58,040
So it was an easy step to take
to start learning those things.
277
00:16:58,490 --> 00:17:02,150
And again, that bridge can be very
long. We've got a lot of natural gas,
278
00:17:02,150 --> 00:17:04,880
we've got supply of renewable natural gas,
279
00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:10,280
and if I didn't say it enough times,
it can be a carbon negative solution.
280
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,010
So it's better than electricity today.
281
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,720
Electricity is not carbon free
from a well to wheel perspective,
282
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:19,430
right? It is at the tailpipe.
283
00:17:19,940 --> 00:17:23,930
But if you consider from the source
of the fuel, whether it's coal,
284
00:17:23,930 --> 00:17:28,280
natural gas or windlow
or nuclear, renewable,
285
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,100
natural gas is the only
one that's truly negative.
286
00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:34,100
And we love baby steps. Like
you said, just ease right in.
287
00:17:34,100 --> 00:17:36,140
Dip your toes in the water's fine.
288
00:17:36,530 --> 00:17:36,770
Exactly.
289
00:17:36,770 --> 00:17:41,750
We got a long way for this long bridge,
so let's take that baby step. Alright,
290
00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:42,950
so before we wrap,
291
00:17:43,130 --> 00:17:47,870
I'd love to know what are drivers saying
about their experience with their RNG
292
00:17:47,870 --> 00:17:48,703
trucks?
293
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:54,090
So the best compliment that
we've gotten is drives like mind
294
00:17:54,090 --> 00:17:56,910
diesel, and that's exactly
what we're going for.
295
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:02,100
So thinking back to that bridge
question you asked now is we want
296
00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:03,930
this to be seamless.
297
00:18:03,930 --> 00:18:08,700
We want it to be non-disruptive
because transportation
298
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:10,710
companies, they're trying to do a job,
299
00:18:11,370 --> 00:18:15,990
whether it's hauling people in a school
bus and get 'em to their homes at night
300
00:18:15,990 --> 00:18:17,280
or work in the morning,
301
00:18:17,670 --> 00:18:22,650
or a shipper hauling their goods
to the store so that we can
302
00:18:22,650 --> 00:18:24,600
buy it. That's what they're trying to do.
303
00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:28,080
And what we want to do is make
the transition to low carbon,
304
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,650
no carbon fuels as easy and
as painless as possible.
305
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:34,590
So if we can make it drive like my diesel,
306
00:18:34,890 --> 00:18:39,300
maybe a little bit quieter and maybe
there's not an odor that they may
307
00:18:39,630 --> 00:18:42,810
associate with diesel
fuel, that's a great win.
308
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,220
And so we continue to win customers over.
Once they drive it, they're surprised.
309
00:18:47,220 --> 00:18:49,560
They're like, wow, I didn't expect that.
310
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:53,280
And so that's the best thing we can hear.
311
00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:56,610
A pleasant surprise and a
very strong user experience.
312
00:18:56,610 --> 00:18:57,750
What more could we ask for?
313
00:18:58,140 --> 00:18:58,973
Exactly.
314
00:18:59,850 --> 00:19:01,950
All right, Dave, I really
appreciate your time today.
315
00:19:01,980 --> 00:19:05,820
Thanks for helping us fuel
the conversation on how RNG
continues to drive fleets
316
00:19:05,820 --> 00:19:06,653
forward.
317
00:19:07,530 --> 00:19:09,210
Hey, you're welcome.
Thanks for having me, Kim.
318
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,760
Anytime. Alright, so what's the
big idea for this episode? Yes.
319
00:19:14,790 --> 00:19:17,220
Renewable natural gas has
been around for a while,
320
00:19:17,490 --> 00:19:20,910
but the innovation happening is
making it more powerful than ever.
321
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:24,690
It's fuel made from waste that can
power trucks, reduce emissions,
322
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,920
and keep goods moving reliably across
the country with technologies like the
323
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,330
X15N engine.
324
00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:34,920
Cummins is making RNG a real part of
the journey towards destination zero.
325
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,180
The takeaway cleaner transportation
doesn't mean starting over.
326
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,610
It means getting smarter
with what we already have.
327
00:19:43,950 --> 00:19:45,240
Power Onward.
328
00:19:51,330 --> 00:19:55,380
Thank you for listening to Power Onward.
Your support means the world to us.
329
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,400
If you enjoyed this episode, please
don't forget to subscribe, rate,
330
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,950
and review on your
favorite podcast platform.
331
00:20:02,430 --> 00:20:04,560
If you want to dig deeper
on what we covered today,
332
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,500
check out the show notes for
additional links or go to
333
00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:11,460
cummins.com/podcast. Until next time,
334
00:20:11,940 --> 00:20:13,230
power Onward.
335
00:20:17,310 --> 00:20:18,390
We are from Cummins,
336
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,380
the company that's been innovating
toward the future for more than a hundred
337
00:20:22,380 --> 00:20:25,290
years. We're no strangers to rapid change,
338
00:20:25,410 --> 00:20:27,750
global shifts and economic uncertainty.
339
00:20:28,350 --> 00:20:32,880
We want to be your constant during
the energy transition whenever,
340
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:36,960
wherever, forever, Power Onward.
00:00:04,110 --> 00:00:05,850
This is Power Onward,
2
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:10,740
the podcast that unveils how power
technology shapes your everyday life.
3
00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:17,760
You are listening to Power Onward.
4
00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,000
What is Powering Your World? Power Onward.
5
00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:27,750
This is Power Onward,
6
00:00:28,020 --> 00:00:32,250
the podcast that unveils how power
technology shapes your everyday life.
7
00:00:33,990 --> 00:00:37,320
What if the waste we throw away could
power the trucks that bring our world to
8
00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,850
life, food waste, farm waste, and
even trash from your local landfill.
9
00:00:42,060 --> 00:00:45,060
It's called renewable natural gas or RNG,
10
00:00:45,330 --> 00:00:49,170
and it's turning what we throw away into
the fuel that keeps our world moving
11
00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:51,870
from package deliveries
to long-haul trucking.
12
00:00:52,110 --> 00:00:56,160
RNG is quietly reshaping how
goods get from point A to point B,
13
00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,430
pushing us all closer to
a cleaner future. I'm Kim.
14
00:01:00,420 --> 00:01:01,253
And I'm Dave.
15
00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:02,190
So Dave,
16
00:01:02,190 --> 00:01:05,880
I've heard the phrase turning trash into
transportation and it really does sound
17
00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,400
too good to be true. So
talk to me about RNG.
18
00:01:09,510 --> 00:01:12,090
Sure, Kim. I like that
phrase. I like to think of it.
19
00:01:12,090 --> 00:01:16,530
One man's trash is another man's
treasure or fuel in this case.
20
00:01:17,070 --> 00:01:20,160
And when we think about
trash in waste streams,
21
00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:25,260
did you know that we produce
in the US over 300 million
22
00:01:25,260 --> 00:01:29,280
tons of trash per year? A
ton per person per year.
23
00:01:30,270 --> 00:01:32,850
In addition, a lot of that's food waste.
24
00:01:32,910 --> 00:01:37,410
So 30 to 40% of our food
goes into a waste stream.
25
00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,530
So that's just pure trash.
26
00:01:41,070 --> 00:01:45,840
And there's over 10 million
dairy cattle in the US and
27
00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,580
that there is 5 million tons
of wastewater biosolids,
28
00:01:51,570 --> 00:01:54,630
and those are just part of our
waste stream, which are problems.
29
00:01:54,870 --> 00:01:59,370
There are problems that we need
to resolve and RNG can be that
30
00:01:59,370 --> 00:02:02,940
solution, RNG, which is
renewable natural gas.
31
00:02:02,940 --> 00:02:04,860
We always throw those three letters out.
32
00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,330
Yes, so RNG comes from waste,
33
00:02:09,330 --> 00:02:11,640
but what exactly does
that process look like?
34
00:02:11,730 --> 00:02:14,250
So think about our trash
going into a landfill,
35
00:02:14,700 --> 00:02:17,640
and so it breaks down
the organic material,
36
00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:22,440
breaks down in a non-oxygen
environment, so that's anaerobic.
37
00:02:23,130 --> 00:02:27,870
And so then it eventually
produces methane and CO2
38
00:02:27,930 --> 00:02:28,763
primarily.
39
00:02:29,460 --> 00:02:33,060
Now you can also artificially
do that with digesters.
40
00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:38,220
Those are other waste streams like food
waste that's diverted to a digester
41
00:02:38,460 --> 00:02:43,380
or dairy cattle manure or
other animal waste streams or
42
00:02:43,380 --> 00:02:44,790
other ag waste.
43
00:02:45,210 --> 00:02:50,070
And then it's put into a digester
and then anaerobically digested again
44
00:02:50,130 --> 00:02:53,010
without oxygen and outcomes methane,
45
00:02:53,010 --> 00:02:55,560
CO2 and just a few other things.
46
00:02:55,950 --> 00:03:00,910
So scrub those gases up or
clean them up and now you've got
47
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,780
effectively 95 or more
percent pure methane.
48
00:03:05,290 --> 00:03:07,720
That's basically renewable natural gas,
49
00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,410
but it's exactly the same thing as
natural gas. It's in our pipeline,
50
00:03:11,410 --> 00:03:12,820
it comes into our homes every day.
51
00:03:13,300 --> 00:03:16,720
Wow. That's not as complicated
as I thought it would be.
52
00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,720
It really is just a series of
chemical reactions and like you said,
53
00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,090
you scrub them up and clean
it up and there it is.
54
00:03:22,690 --> 00:03:23,020
Yeah,
55
00:03:23,020 --> 00:03:27,760
you just separate out the CO2 can
be captured or released separately
56
00:03:28,210 --> 00:03:30,580
and get out some moisture
and things like that.
57
00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,710
So what type of vehicles and operations
can actually benefit from RNG or
58
00:03:35,710 --> 00:03:36,880
renewable natural gas?
59
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,020
So from a commercial and Cummins
commercial vehicle space,
60
00:03:41,500 --> 00:03:45,820
we use engines, sell
engines into transit buses,
61
00:03:46,450 --> 00:03:51,040
medium duty trucks, vocational trucks,
and then regional and line haul trucks.
62
00:03:51,250 --> 00:03:53,290
It's everywhere. We have a diesel engine,
63
00:03:53,950 --> 00:03:58,540
we have a natural gas engine
which can use renewable natural
64
00:03:58,630 --> 00:04:03,580
gas as a solution for that and then fits
right into the operation that they're
65
00:04:03,580 --> 00:04:04,450
used to today.
66
00:04:05,020 --> 00:04:08,410
So exactly how does RNG
help fleets, decarbonize?
67
00:04:08,410 --> 00:04:12,130
We had talked about sustainability,
economic efficiency,
68
00:04:12,130 --> 00:04:14,980
and even a competitive edge. Right?
Can you tell me more about that?
69
00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:16,420
That's right.
70
00:04:16,420 --> 00:04:21,190
So by using the waste stream and
producing renewable natural gas
71
00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,340
and then displacing higher
carbon fuel like diesel,
72
00:04:24,670 --> 00:04:29,500
it's a win-win for the environment
because we get the reduction in our
73
00:04:29,500 --> 00:04:31,840
waste streams or managed or controlled,
74
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,050
and then we're not using fuel
that comes out of the ground,
75
00:04:35,260 --> 00:04:40,000
we're producing our own fuel and fleets
can use that to then they've got a
76
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,050
lower cost fuel in natural
gas, renewable natural gas.
77
00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,520
So there's an economic win for them
and there's a sustainability or an
78
00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,240
environmental, and depending on what
they're going for, it's lower NOx.
79
00:04:52,420 --> 00:04:56,860
So nitrogen oxides into the
atmosphere and it's also lower
80
00:04:56,860 --> 00:05:01,630
carbon. So from a well to wheel
perspective, renewable natural gas,
81
00:05:01,660 --> 00:05:05,680
natural gas in itself is lower
carbon intensity than diesel.
82
00:05:06,220 --> 00:05:11,050
And renewable natural gas can be
an extremely low carbon intensity
83
00:05:11,050 --> 00:05:15,790
fuel. It can be negative in
some cases like dairy manure. By
84
00:05:15,790 --> 00:05:19,570
capturing that methane, it
can be 300, 400, 500 negative
85
00:05:23,050 --> 00:05:24,280
carbon intensity.
86
00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:29,170
For those who want to know what does
carbon intensity is effectively the
87
00:05:29,170 --> 00:05:32,320
equivalent CO2 per unit of energy.
88
00:05:33,010 --> 00:05:37,000
So if diesel's a hundred
CI and NG can be about 80,
89
00:05:37,780 --> 00:05:39,310
and then when you go to
renewable natural gas
90
00:05:40,930 --> 00:05:44,890
can be different sources and
methods can be different numbers.
91
00:05:44,890 --> 00:05:49,300
So landfill gas to
wastewater to dairy manure,
92
00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,080
and it can be really
negative. In fact, California,
93
00:05:53,230 --> 00:05:57,140
they have a low carbon fuel
standard system out there,
94
00:05:57,140 --> 00:06:00,680
so they measure all the
fuels that vehicles use.
95
00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:05,780
And renewable natural gas has
an average carbon intensity of
96
00:06:05,780 --> 00:06:10,370
minus 194 as compared to a hundred for
97
00:06:10,370 --> 00:06:11,203
diesel,
98
00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,490
and that's 99% of natural gas trucks and
99
00:06:16,490 --> 00:06:21,140
vehicles in California
use renewable natural gas.
100
00:06:21,230 --> 00:06:25,100
So it's a huge win for the fleets,
101
00:06:25,220 --> 00:06:28,760
for California, for the
environment for the United States.
102
00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,540
90% Is way more than
I would ever envision.
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00:06:32,540 --> 00:06:35,900
I didn't realize how prevalent
and how present this all is.
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00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:41,300
Yeah, it's 99% in California
and for the US overall it's over
105
00:06:41,300 --> 00:06:46,160
79% of commercial transportation is using
106
00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:47,630
renewable natural gas.
107
00:06:48,740 --> 00:06:51,980
So this is probably why I've been
hearing various companies such as waste
108
00:06:51,980 --> 00:06:55,880
management companies that are continuing
to displace their diesel with RNG
109
00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:56,750
trucks. Right?
110
00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:58,310
That's exactly right.
111
00:06:58,580 --> 00:07:03,170
Over 60% of new refuge trucks are c and g
112
00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,630
or compressed natural gas.
113
00:07:06,110 --> 00:07:10,910
And so of that majority of them
effectively are renewable natural gas.
114
00:07:11,570 --> 00:07:16,130
And some of the refuse companies produce
their own natural gas or renewable
115
00:07:16,130 --> 00:07:19,130
natural gas because again, the landfills,
116
00:07:19,190 --> 00:07:23,090
they're huge sources of
natural gas production.
117
00:07:23,810 --> 00:07:26,660
And so waste management as an example,
118
00:07:26,780 --> 00:07:29,390
does that very thing as
do many of the others.
119
00:07:29,810 --> 00:07:34,340
Dave, you mentioned CNG. So what's
the difference between CNG and RNG?
120
00:07:34,850 --> 00:07:35,780
So if you think about it,
121
00:07:35,780 --> 00:07:40,610
it's natural gas and it can be
stored on a vehicle as compressed
122
00:07:40,610 --> 00:07:42,560
natural gas or as a liquid,
123
00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,810
but then the source of that
gas can be fossil natural
124
00:07:47,810 --> 00:07:52,760
gas IE weld right out of the ground where
125
00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:54,530
it can be renewable natural gas.
126
00:07:54,530 --> 00:07:59,510
And so then that's coming from
a renewable biodegraded organic
127
00:07:59,540 --> 00:08:00,170
material.
128
00:08:00,170 --> 00:08:04,910
So you always see C and G
and RNG kind of thrown around
129
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,660
C and G and LNG. You just really
how it gets soared on the field.
130
00:08:09,230 --> 00:08:09,980
Got it.
131
00:08:09,980 --> 00:08:13,310
You mentioned the dairy farms and the
first time one of our colleagues had told
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me that one of the dairy farm
companies that I'm a big fan of,
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they use the methane from the ways from
the cows on their farms to then fuel
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their fleets, which I thought
was freely really efficient.
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So are there any other testimonials that
showcase why RNG should matter to all
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of us or fun stories that we can
talk about on this shit show?
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Love it. I love it.
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One of our customers that we started
field testing with in the development
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00:08:40,010 --> 00:08:42,830
program who are the X15N,
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they were going to haul
manure for air farms
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00:08:47,810 --> 00:08:49,220
to a digester.
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00:08:49,790 --> 00:08:53,210
And when they realized the
capability that the engine had,
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they were using charge wealth
leader engines to do it already.
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00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:02,250
They use the 15 wheeler to then haul
milk because obviously the dairy
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00:09:02,250 --> 00:09:05,340
cows, one of the things that
comes out of a dairy cow is milk.
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00:09:05,750 --> 00:09:09,330
And so they collect the
milk in the Arizona area,
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00:09:09,870 --> 00:09:14,700
and so they are able to haul
over 120,000 pound tankers
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00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,370
of milk with the X 15 in.
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00:09:17,790 --> 00:09:22,380
So now they're hauling manure with
natural gas engines or renewable
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00:09:22,380 --> 00:09:26,490
natural gas as the fuel's being created
there and they're going out and then
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00:09:26,490 --> 00:09:31,230
collecting the milk from those
same dairy farms and taking it
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to the dairy processing.
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So you've get almost a full circle
economy there where the cows
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00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:42,780
produce milk and it's hauled with
renewable natural gas back to
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00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:43,673
packaging.
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00:09:44,100 --> 00:09:48,900
And then you have the excrement
of the dairy cows that is then
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00:09:48,900 --> 00:09:53,790
hauled away to a digester to
then produce fuel to then run
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00:09:53,790 --> 00:09:56,520
all of those trucks. So
it's beautiful. And in fact,
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they even named their first test truck
a big Bertha because it was such a heavy
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00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,060
haul truck and they love it.
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00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,090
Big Bertha is a very fitting
name for that big hauler.
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00:10:06,510 --> 00:10:11,040
I can't get over the fact that I
am finding this full cycle very
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00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:12,720
satisfying. And again,
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we're talking about excrement and waste
and it's just how it comes together so
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beautifully for those
companies. And again,
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very satisfying to see that full circle
and have very minimal waste come from
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all of this.
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00:10:24,210 --> 00:10:29,190
It's moving to see RNG displacing our
diesel fuel and some might say it's
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00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,150
utterly a great way to make
use of that waste stream.
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I had to work my dad joke in there, Kim.
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00:10:36,570 --> 00:10:39,450
I'm welcoming all the dad jokes and that
one actually took me a little bit off
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guard, so that was a good one. All right.
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So I guess what I'm hearing is that
RNG isn't really new, it's just better.
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And you had mentioned the X15N engine,
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and I remember hearing that it was in
full production in our Jamestown engine
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plant up in New York.
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So how has this first year shaped the
industry's view of natural gas as a
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viable solution?
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Sure. Yeah. RNG is not new.
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It's been around forever in
various forms of how we use those
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types of waste streams,
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but the very first industrialized
RNG facility was like in
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1982 in New York on Staten Island.
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So a little fun fact for you,
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but now there's over 500
RNG production facilities.
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And so not only is the quantity
of going from one landfill on
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Staten Island to now RNG
production facilities,
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500 plus operational
today and another nearly
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00:11:36,270 --> 00:11:39,750
500 more either in
construction or planned,
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the quantities growing and then the
technology going into 'em to really
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00:11:43,830 --> 00:11:44,790
optimize,
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00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,960
make 'em the most efficient
producers of renewable fuel.
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00:11:49,980 --> 00:11:54,340
And so you talked about the
one year anniversary, the X15N.
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It's been fabulous, right?
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00:11:55,690 --> 00:11:59,710
We've had people refer to it as it's
a game changer for the industry,
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which is pretty exciting to hear that
reference. And so there's been a lot of
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excitement,
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a lot of customers who were
natural gas customers with us
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adopting,
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00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,880
but also customers who have
never used natural gas and
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00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,450
they're trying it out, they're
moving some of their fleet over.
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00:12:19,930 --> 00:12:24,580
And then what really gets exciting
is when we see repeat buys.
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00:12:24,700 --> 00:12:29,410
So even within the one year we've got
customers that jumped in the line right
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00:12:29,410 --> 00:12:33,640
away, got trucks, tried 'em out, and
now they've re-upped their order.
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00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:37,000
And in some cases we've had
a third order from customers,
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00:12:37,150 --> 00:12:40,570
and that's all just within one
year. It's really exciting.
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00:12:40,570 --> 00:12:45,010
We've won some awards. I was just in
New York City on behalf of Cummins,
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00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,780
receiving an award for the
X15N with FedEx Leadership
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00:12:49,780 --> 00:12:52,000
Visionary Award from Energy Vision.
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00:12:52,630 --> 00:12:56,770
We won an award through
TMC just earlier this year,
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00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:01,750
and heavy duty trucking awarded
Cummins one of the top 20 new products
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00:13:01,750 --> 00:13:02,980
just a couple years ago.
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00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,780
So pretty exciting for to be a
part of a program and an engine
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00:13:08,260 --> 00:13:10,420
that is a game changer.
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00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,110
That's sensational all
of this within a year.
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00:13:14,410 --> 00:13:16,810
It's very telling and it
speaks volume on the product.
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00:13:16,810 --> 00:13:21,010
And for anyone who's listening on audio
platforms and not watching on YouTube,
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00:13:21,010 --> 00:13:25,630
Dave actually has his X15N come
and shirt on to represent this.
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00:13:25,930 --> 00:13:29,260
So he's a game changer
and a trend setter now.
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00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:31,143
Thanks, Kim.
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00:13:32,410 --> 00:13:34,240
Earlier, I did want to
touch on something else.
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00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:39,160
You had mentioned the quantity of RNG
being way more available than it has been
223
00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,090
before, and I think that's a
common misconception about RNG.
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00:13:43,330 --> 00:13:46,840
So tell me about some other
misconceptions about natural gas.
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00:13:47,530 --> 00:13:51,280
Sure. Some people like said, is there
going to be enough? Is there enough?
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00:13:52,060 --> 00:13:55,780
We continue to invent new waste streams.
227
00:13:56,260 --> 00:13:57,280
I mentioned a few,
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00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:02,200
but those continue to grow as we
try to manage the waste that we
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00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:03,250
continue to produce.
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00:14:03,430 --> 00:14:08,080
We're going to see
landfill waste increase by
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00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:13,030
60 to 70% by 2050.
That's staggering alone.
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00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,670
So more RNG is coming and
we're going to continue to have
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00:14:18,670 --> 00:14:21,730
farms and produce food
and produce waste there.
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00:14:21,850 --> 00:14:25,690
So economically, some people
think it's expensive, right?
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00:14:25,690 --> 00:14:30,640
And it's not really natural gas is
cheaper than diesel. Generally speaking,
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00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,740
it's a much more stable fuel price.
237
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,400
So therefore there's a huge economic win,
238
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,750
a fleet to make that investment
move over to natural gas,
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00:14:40,780 --> 00:14:42,310
renewable natural gas,
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00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,230
and then the payoff on that capital
investment. At the same time,
241
00:14:47,230 --> 00:14:50,230
get the environmental, probably
most people don't know it,
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00:14:50,380 --> 00:14:53,630
but the US is a part of a methane pledge.
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00:14:53,870 --> 00:14:58,580
We want to reduce
globally methane by 30% by
244
00:14:58,580 --> 00:14:59,810
2030, right?
245
00:14:59,810 --> 00:15:04,100
That's methane released into
the atmosphere and there
are all kinds of sources
246
00:15:04,100 --> 00:15:07,250
of that. But some of
these ag waste landfills,
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00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:11,990
those are sources of methane
that get into the atmosphere and
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00:15:12,020 --> 00:15:14,750
methane. Just another
quick fact for you, Kim,
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00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,710
it's 28 times worse than c2.
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00:15:19,070 --> 00:15:22,010
So CO2 gets all the limelight it.
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00:15:22,010 --> 00:15:22,760
Does.
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00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,530
Or all the blame does, but methane,
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00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:29,360
28 times over a hundred years
kind of look at it's 28 times
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00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:30,470
worse than co2.
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00:15:30,530 --> 00:15:35,150
So our biggest impact we can
make is really tackling that
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00:15:35,150 --> 00:15:38,000
methane right away and we
can make a huge impact.
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00:15:39,260 --> 00:15:43,310
For a long time, basically,
since before we spoke,
258
00:15:44,540 --> 00:15:48,470
I really thought carbon dioxide was the
biggest culprit. It was the biggest.
259
00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:53,180
We always talk about CO2 reduction and
learning that methane is far more toxic
260
00:15:53,180 --> 00:15:57,620
and pollutant in the air. Again, it's
a fun fact. Very interesting fact,
261
00:15:57,620 --> 00:16:00,620
but also not so fun because
nobody wants that. Nobody asked.
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00:16:00,620 --> 00:16:01,453
For that. That's right.
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00:16:01,460 --> 00:16:05,930
One of the things that we have discussed
now is that the displacement of
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00:16:06,170 --> 00:16:09,020
diesel technology into
more of the natural gas,
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00:16:09,620 --> 00:16:11,810
is this what we would
consider a bridge fuel?
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00:16:12,140 --> 00:16:14,300
It all depends on what
you consider a bridge,
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00:16:14,630 --> 00:16:19,100
but I think it's a very long bridge,
right? So renewable natural gas,
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00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:23,570
natural gas engines really
are the easiest step
269
00:16:23,660 --> 00:16:28,220
into a low carbon fuel
situation for a fleet.
270
00:16:28,610 --> 00:16:32,090
It slips right into their
operation, fuels fast,
271
00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:36,710
it's very familiar kind of
technology and really can do the
272
00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:40,370
job that diesel does.
So that's the easy part,
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00:16:40,820 --> 00:16:45,590
but it does pave the way for
other future gaseous fuels,
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00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:50,420
perhaps hydrogen or other
technologies where it's just a lower
275
00:16:50,420 --> 00:16:53,570
carbon fuel, but maybe
some other things to learn.
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00:16:53,570 --> 00:16:58,040
So it was an easy step to take
to start learning those things.
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00:16:58,490 --> 00:17:02,150
And again, that bridge can be very
long. We've got a lot of natural gas,
278
00:17:02,150 --> 00:17:04,880
we've got supply of renewable natural gas,
279
00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:10,280
and if I didn't say it enough times,
it can be a carbon negative solution.
280
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,010
So it's better than electricity today.
281
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,720
Electricity is not carbon free
from a well to wheel perspective,
282
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:19,430
right? It is at the tailpipe.
283
00:17:19,940 --> 00:17:23,930
But if you consider from the source
of the fuel, whether it's coal,
284
00:17:23,930 --> 00:17:28,280
natural gas or windlow
or nuclear, renewable,
285
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,100
natural gas is the only
one that's truly negative.
286
00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:34,100
And we love baby steps. Like
you said, just ease right in.
287
00:17:34,100 --> 00:17:36,140
Dip your toes in the water's fine.
288
00:17:36,530 --> 00:17:36,770
Exactly.
289
00:17:36,770 --> 00:17:41,750
We got a long way for this long bridge,
so let's take that baby step. Alright,
290
00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:42,950
so before we wrap,
291
00:17:43,130 --> 00:17:47,870
I'd love to know what are drivers saying
about their experience with their RNG
292
00:17:47,870 --> 00:17:48,703
trucks?
293
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:54,090
So the best compliment that
we've gotten is drives like mind
294
00:17:54,090 --> 00:17:56,910
diesel, and that's exactly
what we're going for.
295
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:02,100
So thinking back to that bridge
question you asked now is we want
296
00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:03,930
this to be seamless.
297
00:18:03,930 --> 00:18:08,700
We want it to be non-disruptive
because transportation
298
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:10,710
companies, they're trying to do a job,
299
00:18:11,370 --> 00:18:15,990
whether it's hauling people in a school
bus and get 'em to their homes at night
300
00:18:15,990 --> 00:18:17,280
or work in the morning,
301
00:18:17,670 --> 00:18:22,650
or a shipper hauling their goods
to the store so that we can
302
00:18:22,650 --> 00:18:24,600
buy it. That's what they're trying to do.
303
00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:28,080
And what we want to do is make
the transition to low carbon,
304
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,650
no carbon fuels as easy and
as painless as possible.
305
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:34,590
So if we can make it drive like my diesel,
306
00:18:34,890 --> 00:18:39,300
maybe a little bit quieter and maybe
there's not an odor that they may
307
00:18:39,630 --> 00:18:42,810
associate with diesel
fuel, that's a great win.
308
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,220
And so we continue to win customers over.
Once they drive it, they're surprised.
309
00:18:47,220 --> 00:18:49,560
They're like, wow, I didn't expect that.
310
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:53,280
And so that's the best thing we can hear.
311
00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:56,610
A pleasant surprise and a
very strong user experience.
312
00:18:56,610 --> 00:18:57,750
What more could we ask for?
313
00:18:58,140 --> 00:18:58,973
Exactly.
314
00:18:59,850 --> 00:19:01,950
All right, Dave, I really
appreciate your time today.
315
00:19:01,980 --> 00:19:05,820
Thanks for helping us fuel
the conversation on how RNG
continues to drive fleets
316
00:19:05,820 --> 00:19:06,653
forward.
317
00:19:07,530 --> 00:19:09,210
Hey, you're welcome.
Thanks for having me, Kim.
318
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,760
Anytime. Alright, so what's the
big idea for this episode? Yes.
319
00:19:14,790 --> 00:19:17,220
Renewable natural gas has
been around for a while,
320
00:19:17,490 --> 00:19:20,910
but the innovation happening is
making it more powerful than ever.
321
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:24,690
It's fuel made from waste that can
power trucks, reduce emissions,
322
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,920
and keep goods moving reliably across
the country with technologies like the
323
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,330
X15N engine.
324
00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:34,920
Cummins is making RNG a real part of
the journey towards destination zero.
325
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,180
The takeaway cleaner transportation
doesn't mean starting over.
326
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,610
It means getting smarter
with what we already have.
327
00:19:43,950 --> 00:19:45,240
Power Onward.
328
00:19:51,330 --> 00:19:55,380
Thank you for listening to Power Onward.
Your support means the world to us.
329
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,400
If you enjoyed this episode, please
don't forget to subscribe, rate,
330
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,950
and review on your
favorite podcast platform.
331
00:20:02,430 --> 00:20:04,560
If you want to dig deeper
on what we covered today,
332
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,500
check out the show notes for
additional links or go to
333
00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:11,460
cummins.com/podcast. Until next time,
334
00:20:11,940 --> 00:20:13,230
power Onward.
335
00:20:17,310 --> 00:20:18,390
We are from Cummins,
336
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,380
the company that's been innovating
toward the future for more than a hundred
337
00:20:22,380 --> 00:20:25,290
years. We're no strangers to rapid change,
338
00:20:25,410 --> 00:20:27,750
global shifts and economic uncertainty.
339
00:20:28,350 --> 00:20:32,880
We want to be your constant during
the energy transition whenever,
340
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:36,960
wherever, forever, Power Onward.
